When anthropologist and consciousness researcher Kim McCaul talks about “multidimensional evolution”, it’s a concept that sounds like it might be a little bit woo-woo New Age-y. Kinda like when paranormal people talk about quantum physics. Yes, Einstein called it “spooky action at a distance”. No, it doesn’t provide a scientific explanation for ghosts, psychics, demons, etc… When you put scientific words into non-materialist concepts, things can often get dice-y quickly, which always makes me think of one of my favorite of Damon Wayans’ characters on In Living Color (sorry Homey The Clown!)

But when Kim McCaul breaks it down, the idea of “multidimensional evolution” isn’t complex or trying to ape modern science, it’s simply the idea that our consciousness doesn’t just have one dimension (or manifestation.) We have

• the soma (our physical body)
• the psychosoma (our spiritual body)
• the mentalsoma (our analytical manifestation)
• the energosoma (our manifestitation in energy).

And while a couple of those might hew close to the Freudian model of the psyche, the idea that we have more than one body is as old as humanity itself. When we talked to Jan Van Ysslestyne about her book The Spirits from The Edge of the World which is about the shamanism of the Ulchi people of Siberia, the idea of multiple bodies for one person is natural to their thousands-year-old Shamanic tradition. And Kim has been studying the Aboriginal civilization in Australia, whose spiritual tradition goes back tens of thousands of years, and there he finds many of the same concepts.

Which is why it’s funny that these ideas are often called “New Age”. New?! It’s the oldest religion in civilization. Our world around us is all alive and is all a different expression of this life energy that we call consciousness.

And there was something from the book and our conversation that I found particularly interesting. I’m sure you’ve heard the expression that in this life we are “a spiritual entity having a physical experience” but Kim McCaul says that it’s more like “we are a consciousness having a spiritual and a physical experience”. That struck me because it seemed to make more sense to me.

If consciousness is an energy that all comes from the same place and we are bits of that consciousness that differentiate from each other through the experiences we feel in our bodies (and Kim would say in many bodies over many lifetimes), then that unity that we all feel sometimes after meditation or through a psychedelic drug, that oneness, is because consciousness itself isn’t different, it’s the bodies that consciousness expresses itself through that are different. That whole “namaste” thing is even more powerful when you realize that other people are built from the same stuff as you, their experiences have just led them to where they are, even if they’re in opposition to you. It just helps to engender a little empathy when you realize that everyone else is dealing with their own $h!t too. Consciousness exists as a universal force that we have all come from and we all will go back to, there’s not as a finite number of “souls” that exist independently of each other.

Anyway, my mind was blown for a short time, but in the interview you’ll find more great tidbits like:

• How Kim’s spiritual journey took him from the UK to Indonesia to Rio de Janeiro and to Australia
• What kinds of meditation can help you open yourself up to discovering your different somas
• What’s an “intruder” vs a “helper”
• How to avoid ‘spiritual superiority disorder”

Welcome to See You on the Other Mike, where the world of

the mysterious collides with the world of entertainment.

A discussion of art, music, movies, spirituality, the

weird and self discovery. And now,

your hosts, musicians and entertainers who have their

own weakness for the weird, Mike and Wendy from

the band Sunspot. Episode 267,

multidimensional evolution exploring consciousness with

Kim McCall. And joining us

from the other side of the world, so far on the other side of the

world, I did not realize it was past the international date Mike and I screwed

up our first podcast recording appointment.

But joining us today is anthropologist and consciousness

researcher Kim McCall all the way from Central Australia. How you

or should I say good day, Kim? Yeah. Yeah. You

can say good day. Hi, Mike. Lovely to be here. Fantastic.

Right. You know, I've been plowing my way, through your book

Multidimensional Evolution for the past week, and I've been

enjoying it. It's, you know, it's definitely

a very personally it's called personal explorations of consciousness.

And I like the fact that you go into

your experiences and it kind of shows you how you got

to this point through you know, how you

lived. And I think this is why don't you give us

a little bit of the Kim McCall bio, so people before we get

into the meat of the conversation can get familiar with you

and why you're into this? Yeah. Sure. Look. I I

wrote the book really as a kind of book that I would have liked

to have had when things first started

going a bit weird for me because I wasn't

into I wasn't into consciousness You know, I

wasn't really into any kind of spirituality or anything like that for, you know, well

into my twenties. And then

I I needed I needed some self care, so I

wasn't in a very good place in my in my early twenties. So

Is anybody in a really good place in their early Wendy? So, like, I

think about me, like, I was touring around with my band. And when I'm trying

to think about my life, like, I was about as far away

from a enlightened consciousness as you could get. I

mean, most of my consciousness was spent on the floor after a, you

know, a 12 pack. Yes. Yes. Exactly. I spent a lot of time on

floors. And, and look, I mean, I meet

young people who I just look at, and I'm in awe of, you know, because

they just seem to be so clear on what they're doing here. But I

definitely wasn't 1 of those. And, yeah, I

think, you know, the majority is in that position. We we're just kind of groping

our way around life, you know, trying to make the the most the best of

things. But for me, what it led to a friend of mine at university

had come back from this meditation center in Indonesia and and was

was raving about, you know, how profound it was. And so the

next summer break, I went to Indonesia, and

I spent some time meditating. And I really I just

assumed when you meditate, you sort of calm. You maybe you

calm down, you know, find some inner peace. Right.

But it instead just started it opened

up things that I had no reference point for.

I wanna get to that in 1 second. But let's start with, where were you

living at the time? Were you in Australia? Oh, sure. Okay. Well,

in terms of that background, I was studying in the in the UK, in England.

I'm actually originally from Germany. Okay. That's where I did my growing

up. A bit of You don't sound like you're from Germany, Kim. I

know. I know. I don't. Unfortunately,

I used to. But, but, you know, maybe by my name, you can tell that

it's not exactly German. I've got a German, Irish background. But Sure. But

German was my my first language growing up. And Oh, fantastic. I ended

up in the UK studying, and, yeah, that's that's where I

was. So making a trip to Indonesia to study meditation,

that seems to me like a big step. So when I you think of the

distance between Indonesia and the United Kingdom at the Mike, I mean, some

of these comes back like, hey, man. I went to Indonesia and did some meditation

and was really badass. You should go too. That that to

me, like, how long were you gonna go for? A couple weeks or something like

that just to check it out? Well, I I was

I I think we had about 2 months of a break,

during term, summer break, and that's pretty much the time I

wanted to to take. You know, when

you say it like that now, it's pretty crazy because I'm sure there's meditation centers

just somewhere in the next town over in England. Right? Yeah. It's the UK. You

gotta call up, you know, like, where where did Paul McCartney go or whatever?

Any of those guys? Where did the Aleister Crowley hang up? But the idea that,

like, in that just seems like a real gutsy move to

me. And so when you're saying, like, oh, yeah. Well, it's you know, I went

out to Indonesia for the summer. I'm like, holy crap. Did you have to bring

like, that sounds to me like is it is it a place full of unrest?

I mean, just as the regular, ugly American here,

that's just why it seems so gutsy, to be Mike, I'm gonna go check

out this thing. So were you, like, were you into meditation?

Were you into new age stuff? No. I wasn't. I

wasn't. I was just being introduced, you know, through that Wendy, and there was another

friend in England who started talking about things like

auras and crystals and spirits and past lives, but it none of it

really meant anything to me. And that wasn't even

the appeal. That wasn't what drew me to Indonesia. It's funny. I actually have

never thought about it like that. You know? Like, it just it was just the

step. And I guess my life has been a bit like that. There's always been

these these steps that just offered themselves,

and somehow I knew or felt

compelled, I should say, to take it. You know? There was,

like, this this inner voice that went, yeah, just gotta do

this. And I did have a lot of soul searching. I I

was, I had just not long into a relationship

with this girl I was very much in love with, and leaving

her for that time seemed pretty crazy too. So I do remember

sort of a couple of days before I actually got on my plane just going,

what am I doing? You know? Am I crazy here? But it just, yeah, just

had that real compulsion, I'd say. So something

pulled you there. And when you get there, you said you know, I think about

meditation, and I I have a I have a practice or I try. You

know? I don't think, I Mike we were talking about Wim

Hof earlier before we started recording and that, you know, he has

such, you know, he can concentrate to such an extent and, you know,

control his bodily functions in a way that are fantastic. And

when I think about meditation, it's like a nice way to quiet my mind and

everything. But meditation opened up something deeper for

you. Yes. Yeah. That's right. So I was looking for the quiet

mind, but instead, I I found you know, if I'd

gone to any psychiatrist or something, would have probably been described

as I was saying that the labels, you know, neurosis, psychosis,

because I started perceiving things I hadn't perceived

before and Okay. Seeing things that didn't

seem to be there or didn't really make sense and and and feeling

things and hearing things. Well, give me give me an example of something you

saw where it Mike because you seem you're probably you're a college student, level

headed guy thinking, oh, meditation's a good idea. I know it's helped a lot of

people. I'm looking for some centering in my life for, again, trying

new things. I'm in my twenties. And then, you see

what that's like, oh, man. What did I what am I looking at

here? Well, I mean, 1 of the things I talk about in

my book was getting into this space where I was,

walking through solo, was the the city in in in

Java, in Indonesia. Walking through solo and

see there was there was physically, there was these plastic bags

waving across the road. But I

literally stopped in my tracks and felt, a lot of

fear to move on because I I perceived they were these

these fearful beings that were kind of moving around.

And, you know, and I was standing there going,

this doesn't make any sense, but I was really, really afraid, you

know? So that's quite crazy in a way. I

would be lying down in the meditation hall with my

eyes closed, and I could see people walking around

the room, around at

at an angle that, you know, didn't make sense for me to be able to

see. So this is actual people. There was actual people in the room, not not

just spirits or anything. But I could see them with

my eyes closed, not open my eyes. And, yes, they were walking along there.

Yeah. Those things, which I now understand, but at the time, I had no

reference point for. Well, I wanna get into that because, first of all, I mean,

meditation, a lot of times people talk about not just the centering and and the

stillness, but meditation on a a deeper level. You know, you talk

about the 3rd eye, and, you know, you said you

you're perceiving things that in your

previous life, as in, like, your just your regular going to college dude

life, you didn't perceive them. So

was there a particular point when you realized

that this wasn't, you know, just imagination or whatever?

You were, like, seeing things on a different plane, a different dimension

as it were. I think that really

took me to to feel really confident

in that, you know, that took me quite a long time. There

was a long time this doubting. You know? I'm I'm

I'm I'm imagining. I don't

know. You know? I didn't there was this this this distrust, I

suppose, of those sort of perceptions for quite a long time.

So I can't give you a A eureka bite or anything. Yeah.

No. Not for that. I mean, I I guess, you know, there were certain

things that happened. Like, the the meditation

teacher who was an older Indonesian man,

I guess the way he treated things, you know, he was very matter of

fact. So, for example, when you talk about the 3rd eye, 1 thing that that

started, there, and it's been continued really throughout my life

since then, was feeling pulsation and pressure around the

area of the 3rd eye. And Okay. When I

mentioned that to him, the the, that that's the thing. I do remember that there

was a particular session where that started and at the during the meditation.

Then after the meditation, we always had a chance to ask questions and and share

our experiences. And I said, well, I had this I had this I'm

feeling these sensations there. And he just said, yeah.

That makes sense. We we made some changes to the,

you know, to the meditation space somehow. They'd they'd, I don't

know. That, him and some other local people

had done some kind of Buddhist type ceremony,

at 1 of the altars in the space. For some for Sofia, there was this

logical just the way he responded was very matter of fact. So those

things, that did help to just go, okay. So this is obviously. Like

so you were doing some so when you were in the meditation,

something had happened to you that

to him made perfect sense because they had changed the

space in a certain way or they had Yes. Done something with the place,

and then it invited different things in or

it made for an experience, a

nonphysical experience, as it were, that would change you. So

that's that's an interesting thing right there because that's his little

bit of confirmation, like, oh, alright. Well, we added this carpet,

and this carpet's supposed to make you see Exactly.

See white birds, and now you saw more white birds. So there you go. Yeah.

So that's an interesting thing just on its own that you would have this

experience based on something you didn't even know about. Yes. Yeah. That's

true. And that there is such a causality in that

in that dimension of life. You know? You do something over here, and then

these curious energetic sensations start happening over

there. You know, what I think is interesting about that is that,

you know, did you come from what did you study in college? You know, were

you the kind of person that was all like you said,

you weren't necessarily a very spiritual person. And in the book, you talk

about you're experiencing this, you know, existential

malaise that where you're like, oh, I think you know, is this it?

Everybody has that moment in their twenties Yeah. Where they just kinda look at the

world. They you think that because earlier on, you think that the people in

charge know what they're doing. And so all of a sudden, when you realize that

the inmates are running the asylum and, you know, that nobody

knows what's going on, you kind of just look up at around you and you're

just like, is this it? Yeah.

And so you're at that point when you go to this place. And

were you surprised almost, or was that just was it the kind

of meditation place where other people were having those

same kind of experiences? Well, so

just to go back, you you asked me what I was studying in college. That

was anthropology. Okay. Okay. So you were already open to

this you know, you were already open to a lot of the ideas with anthropology.

I guess so. I mean, III had read Carlos Castaneda at that stage. That

was actually before I got to university. So so I suppose that

would have sown some seeds, although I don't remember it being much in the forefront

of my my mind. But, sure, anthropology, we touch

on we touch on all kinds of, beliefs and experiences that

people talk about. I just feel like the anthropologists I've met are

always open to interesting things, like this.

Whereas when you meet, like, a geneticist or whatever, he's like,

ghosts. It's all crap. You know? Yeah. So Yeah. You know, so

it's interesting, you know, like, what you're studying, the things that you are

open to kind of, you know, that that sets you on the path to

then be able to start experiencing the

world in maybe a nonmaterial or a non reductivist

way? Yeah. Look, it can help. You know, I think, like,

anthropology is, on the whole, is quite

materialistic. And and I think people are a bit concerned about

wanting to be seen as a proper sign. So they try and stay away from

taking on, the beliefs of the people they're working with too much on the

whole. So I had a bit of a struggle with that actually, especially as I

went on through university and I was opening up into that, and then I was

reading anthropology, and I was going, that's I'm experiencing what they're talking about. You know?

And trying to trying to put that into essays didn't always go down very

well. Right. Right. You're not supposed to be the subject.

Yes. Yes. Exactly. You know, so we're going through these initial experiences

are happening too. You're going through it. Were other people at the center

having the same kind of thing? Yes. Yeah.

There were there were certainly I think we were all having

profound experience at that center in different ways.

You know, I remember 1 guy who'd been he'd been there for a long time.

He was there for about a year, and I don't he never really shared what

was going on for him. But He's like a dude that just didn't need a

job or what? I mean, I just think how do you get to go? Like,

I'd like to go to a meditation center for a year. Yeah. He must have

been good at setting up or something. Right. Okay.

But, I just remember I just remember him going through

some really intense, emotional, painful things. You know, he didn't share a

lot, but it was very obvious Sure. For us. Other

people 1 there's 1 guy who every time the meditation ended, he'd he'd

have these amazing visions to share, which that wasn't at

all was happening for me. You know? So that I couldn't really relate to that.

So it's kind of like everybody had the very personal

experiences, I think. But, yeah, there was definitely there was definitely

an opening and a sensitivity to the fact that there was more to, you

know, more to life than we most of us had, I think, thought before we

got there. And so this kinda sets you on your path then. So, like, you

know, you go to the center, you start feeling a, you

know, something bigger than yourself or something bigger than just the the

material world. When is

when is the next time you can explore this? You know, like, so you

go back to college, and your, you know, your regular Mike, and you

gotta take your tests and do homework, and, you know, you can't

just Mike in the metaphysical

plane all the time. Yeah. Wendy is the next time you get

you you can keep furthering this kind of study of yourself?

Well, in some ways, the college life was actually very conducive because

it did give me plenty of time. I was lucky I didn't need to work,

on the side of being at university. So I was

essentially going to my lectures, you know, doing my readings and whatever, you

know, to the extent that I did, and and meditating a

lot. So I spent, after I

came back from Indonesia, I spent, I'd say, at least 1, maybe

2 or 3 hours a day, meditating first thing in the morning, later

in the day. And it was became it became almost necessary because 1

of the things that happened with this opening is that I became so

sensitive that I really struggled.

And, again, I didn't actually really understand what's happening, but I would come home from

being out, being at college or whatever, and just feel really overwhelmed.

Well, you you talk about that a little bit in the book when you say

that, eventually, you discuss intruders and

helpers. So when you had that first experience, you see things and

they're these fearful entities in, you know, manipulating

these plastic bags or whatever or represented by them. And

then you become sensitive to other

things that are coexisting alongside us. And

so as you're meditating, you're feeling this sense. You're in there for, you

know, 2 or 3 hours a day, which is that's a that's a long time

to get in there. I mean, that's like training for a marathon, but but in

your head. So as you're doing that and in the book, you talk

about these intruders and helpers. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Yeah.

Sure. I mean, that's really,

you know, certainly jumping ahead in the sense of me having those ideas, those

concepts. Right? That came that came later, when I went

and studied elsewhere, and we'll probably get to that in a bit. But the concept

the idea is that, really, there is 2 types of

energy, if you want, in the world that we create as

people. 1 is, you know, 1 is positive and supporting

and and helpful and uplifting, and the other 1 is,

more in in some way, more

disturbed or or or sort of, you know, heavier

or pulling down. And in some cases, really malicious. Right? So there's a

whole spectrum. I mean, the term intruder kind of covers

it's the term intruder sounds quite menacing. Menacing. Yeah.

Exactly. Intruder sounds like you're breaking into my house. I'm gonna take my stuff.

Exactly. And so that, I think that term is in in a

way, I I Mike to sort of reserve that for people who are really deliberately,

you know, trying to get out take other take other people down or

or manipulate them. And you you have people like that in physical

Mike. But we also what I came to

understand is that we also have we're always then continue after this physical life, and

then we have people in in nonphysical life that that also do

that that can, impact people. But but really,

you know, what I think what I was struggling with a lot at that stage

was simply the energies of you know, most

of us don't carry, like, the most uplifting energy all the time.

You know, we all struggle with things, and we struggle with feeling

down or, you know, people are still

somebody who's when you meet somebody who's happy all the time, you gotta think,

like, either they're faking it, they're crazy, or they're on

drugs. Yep.

Yep. That's that might be the case. Or, you know, or maybe they fit the

sweet spot somehow. Right. Of course. Maybe they're, you

know, maybe they're 25 lives ahead of me, and they've got it all figured out.

Exactly. But but, but I guess, you

know, this the the people who are there's this category of, I

guess, empath. Right? People that are just naturally open to other people's energies, can just

struggle just being around other people because Sure.

And that seemed to be what was happening to me there. So I

was just

going around people and then I came home and I felt like I was carrying

all these kind of thoughts and feelings that weren't mine, you

know, that weren't really that I didn't have before. And then once I

started meditating and so on, it would all fade away again.

When you were meditating then, you know, the real popular thing now is just to

focus on the breath and almost try to think about nothing.

We but also other people meditate where they try to think about something.

You know, when you were meditating, was it the idea of emptying your

mind, or was it concentrating on something to

try and manifest or something like that? Well, it was it was

concentrating on the body. So it

was essentially this this, I guess, the idea in a lot of meditation

techniques, whether you focus on the breath or on the body is you're trying to

give your body a point of reference, it becomes the sort of the center

point. And so in this case, you go through we I would go

through my from my feet, my calves, my thighs,

you know, up all the way to the top of my Mike, and

just stay on on each part for however long. It felt

right at the Mike, and just kind of constantly going

and feeling the relaxation of that part of my body.

And, you know, I didn't really, again, understand at the time. It just

seemed like a way of focusing, you know, focusing the mind in a

way. But, you know, since then,

I've come to understand a lot more how we carry, you know,

what we carry in the body, like how we carry our own experiences,

like things that we don't remember, you know, childhood traumas and childhood experiences,

and even our ancestral experiences through the genetics.

You know, all of that is is in the body and how

by giving it so much focus and intention, it can

actually allow us to to get in touch with and release some of

those things. So Well, I like what you're saying there because I always think it's

it's fascinating that so much of our

physical processes are completely, subconscious.

Mhmm. You know, we we don't even think about them. I mean, that's the point.

You know, you you don't think about breathing. It happens. You don't

think about your feet touching the ground and

how each toe feels on it and stuff because

we only focus on, you know, what we think is important at the Mike, and

and our consciousness allows us to do that. But at the same time, there are

all these processes going on where, you know,

you're like, I'm sitting in a chair right now. I'm cross legged sitting in a

chair, and I have, you know, 20 different points of touch Yes. Where

I'm touching this chair. But at the same time, I'm not thinking about it because

I'm talking to you. And when you meditate sometimes, you can

focus on those points and realize how much,

you know, physical input we're getting. And it helps you just, you know,

real you know, think about that that kind of thing that it here's where I

am. I'm not just in my head off somewhere, but this is where I

I physically am. And so when you talk about that way

of looking at each part of your body and thinking about it because when you

think about your neck, like, all of a sudden you feel your neck, Like, oh,

hey. How did that happen? Yep. And doing that to help you return

to yourself after you're sensitive to everybody else's

energies getting in your way. Yes. Yeah.

Absolutely. And the other thing I liked about this particular meditation technique

was that, essentially, it

the way it was talked about in the in the meditation center was your intro

introverted meditation, which was the 1 where you sit down and

so on. And then the rest of your day, the teacher always called

you daily meditation, which essentially was a

a reminder to the fact that, you know, you

can bring yourself to that space in 1 way or another

at any time. So as you are like, right now, as we're sitting here

talking, we can actually bring our awareness

to our bodies and talk at the same time and

then notice that even this process here, right, you just bring awareness

to it. It becomes a meditation in itself. Right. It's the

focus, and it's the, you know, realizing what we're doing is,

you know, that that being able to concentrate

our minds on something seems to be that's something that meditation can help

with. Well, especially me because I am completely

ADD. The men are not diagnosed or whatever. I'm not taking Ritalin. Well, I've

I've snowed at Ritalin before, but it happened before a test. But no. But the

idea that, you know, in in our heads, like, sometimes it's

so easy to be talking to somebody, and we're thinking about something else. And we're

not here in the present moment. Well, that's right. Yeah. That's the that's the

key, isn't it, being in the present moment? And in enjoying what we have

right now and not worried about the future and not anxious about

the past and what's happened to us. And we talk about the multiple dimensions

and, you know, multidimensional evolution. Yeah.

You know, there's some terms in your book that I think I thought

were super interesting. I'd love to go over them, and I also think they

relate in an anthropological

sense to, you know, things that people have

believed for, you know, probably 10000 years.

And that's, you know, with the psychosoma, the mental soma,

and I do not know how to pronounce the energosoma. Oh,

energo. Inergosoma. An energosoma. Alright. I got close. So I

kinda wanna get into those ideas because that's where I think we have this idea

of the multidimensional person. Yes. Yep.

Okay. So 1 of the so

those terms that you describe, they come from a Brazilian

framework, called consensiology, which is the study of

consciousness. And I got

into that because I started having out of body

experiences through the meditation. So I would quite often go to when I went to

sleep, I would do the meditation as I went to sleep, you know, going through

my body and and just keeping awareness of my body. So it's no longer

just seeing other people in the room that in the room with you, it was

taken off. Yes. Yep. And talking to people

outside of my body and being in places

that well, having experienced so for a long time, I had this label dreams,

but it just didn't seem to do it justice because there was these real

tan this real tang tangibility about it. You know? And I'd come I'd wake

up feeling different energies there. And so it felt

Mike another part of my life. And I didn't but so this is where this

is where the idea of writing my book came in. I didn't have a reference

point. I wasn't I I didn't know about Robert Monroe. I mean, there are other

reference points. You know? There's a lot of literature about OBEs, but I didn't know

anything about it. So and then I guess I had a similar

moment to to, you know, like you pointed out, going all the

way to Indonesia. I I came across while I was in

the UK in my last year of university and kind of thinking, what am I

gonna do afterwards? I came across a interview with

this Brazilian consciousness researcher, Baldo Vieira.

And he talked about all these in the interview, he

talked about all these kinds of experiences that I just couldn't relate to so

much. And I just went, that's where I'm going. I've gotta study with this man.

And so after I finished university, I ended up going to Brazil.

And that's where I learned about these these concepts. So,

this discipline of consensiology had been developed

specifically by by Waldo

to move away from dealing with with these kind of

things in a religious framework and trying to approach them

in a new so the the creative terms to create new terms so we

don't deal with, like, astral body and soul and those kinds of things. Right. So

you're not just throwing out the soul or, the psyche or

and then plus anything when you talk about, like the the mind

or whatever, then you start dealing with Freudian topics.

So I mean, you have psychology from the

medical perspective Yeah. And you have religion from the spiritual perspective,

and those things come with a certain kind of baggage. Anything that comes from religion

is going to come with rules, and that's not harsh on religion or whatever because

it's it has done some great things for humanity. But at the same time,

like, it's going to come with rules and preconceived notions

where somebody has an out of body experience. All of a sudden they're wondering,

oh, was that, you know, was that the devil trying to tempt me with something?

And you wanna kinda get that out of there so that you can deal with

the experience as it was without the baggage coming with it.

Yes. Exactly. So what's the psychosoma? Yes.

So the soma is body in Greek. Soma is

the word for body in in Greek. So in consensiology,

there's the this sort of 4 tiered system that of bodies that we

all have as consciousnesses. The soma is the

physical body and the psychosoma is the emotional

body or what in other people might call the astral

body. That is the body that leaves our physical

body when we sleep and have an out of body experience.

And it it looks for the most part for most

people, it's like a replica of their physical body,

because it seems to be shaped by our self image. So,

interestingly enough, you know, often as we get older, the psychosoma

doesn't age in the same way because we kind of have this we seem to

have an image of ourselves that, you know, is at a stage that we

are quite fond of ourselves. Sure. So we might be

in our early thirties or something. So I remember and it's

interesting. And I I was thinking about that last night, actually. I I remember

I had 1 of my anthropology lecturers, actually, in the religion lecturer. He was

he was definitely we never talked about it, but just the way he was, he

he knew. You know? He I think he could see. I think he was psychic.

And I actually had a couple of OEs with him.

And but he was he was he had a full head of hair. He was

he was bald, and he was, like, in his sixties. And he had a full

head of hair, and and he was, you know, in his thirties in in those

OBEs. And I didn't Right. He was buff. They're like, hey,

professor. You've been working out? I

still look like an academic, not so buff. But, yeah,

but he, but this was before I, you know, I had studied this stuff. And

then I and then I learned, for example, in Brazil about this process that

we often keep ourselves generally keep ourselves looking younger.

So, yeah, so the psychosoma is essentially a replica of the physical body. We leave

the physical body with it. And and the experiences we have in other dimensions,

whether it is meeting, you know, meeting deceased

friends, love loved ones, or,

you know, the kind or there's such a wide range of experiences people have

out of the body. They happen generally in the psychosoma. So is it

and so when you say emotional body, is it, I

mean, different kind of consciousness? Like, we find that

when you're in your psychosomatic body and out of body experience,

are you a more emotional person? Do are you quicker to anger? Are you quicker

to cry? Like, we've all had the dreams thing where we've had uncontrollable

crying in our dreams. Yep. And that seems to me

like whatever is going on in my brain or whatever or

whatever, you know, particular neuron's getting activated that night is the

sad neuron. And so, like, is there something with

our emotional bodies that we may act differently than we

would in regular life or physical you know, our our physicality or

regular soma? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. That's a really good question. So just to

get clear on the sort of the framework, when I talk about so with consciousness,

the way I understand consciousness is that consciousness is is in

a sense separate from all

of these bodies. And it uses you know, it's like the the

ghost in the machine or it's like the driver. It uses the different bodies.

It uses right now, we are sitting here in our physical bodies.

And, you know, we are experiencing a certain form

of awareness, of course, which is very much determined by our physical

body. And that is consciousness manifesting itself here through this

body. And then if we leave it in the psychosoma, that's just another

body used by consciousness and so is the mental soma.

And each of these bodies gives gives us different kinds of experiences.

So the physical body gives us particularly restrictive

kind of experience. You know, 1 with that

involves a lot of, you know, physical pain and eventually death,

and and our senses are very limited. In the

psychosoma, we have a more expansive state. But, yes,

it's called the emotional body, because it does it

is a stage where our emotions are heightened,

and we create like, we're driven by our

desires often. So you can have,

you know, especially in the beginning before you have control, you can have a desire.

And you it's a very creative space, this x this

nonphysical dimension. So you think of something, and it'll appear in

your mind's eye, but it'll seem real to you. So we can

create things, and we can fulfill our desires quickly. And

it becomes it's a very murky space because there's this this whole combination

of living in a in a fantasy world, in the nonphysical

dimension. And Right. Also interacting with the real

world. III was thinking about this the other day. Do you know the Dreams May

Come movie? Oh, yeah. Based on the original Madison novel. Yeah.

And so, you know, when he first when when the

character played by Robin Williams first has died and he

wakes up in this new dimension, everything there is actually just

created around his mind. It's all just familiar, you

know, scenes and paintings from his his wives. And

then there's this dramatic scene where his his helper kind of

tears, tears it open, and then he steps into

a work where there's actually other people. Don't don't know if you remember that.

But that's for me, that's the the, you know, that's a really

nice depiction of how that

extra physical world works that we Okay.

Spend potentially, we can spend a lot of Mike,

just operating from our desires and our

emotions and just, in a sense, interacting with our own creations,

until we kind of get that jump in

awareness. And then it's like the curtain opens, and you can

actually see people around you. Well, you know, 1 question I have about the different

bodies, and it it probably it comes from when you were you said,

that our consciousness is using these particular bodies. So our

consciousness is in the physical body,

where you break your leg and it hurts or whatever. Your your consciousness is in

the emotional body where you feel things very intensely, and

your consciousness is in the mental body where we probably analyze stuff and, you know,

the mental soma. Yes. Yep. Right. Clarity and yeah.

So then when we when we go back to our consciousness itself, is that

anything in particular like, how are consciousness conscious

It's hard to say. Consciousnesses, plural.

But what is the difference then between your consciousness

and my consciousness? Because it sounds like the physical body and the

mental body and the emotional body then are going to

that's gonna create how we treat each other or what we do or, you know,

it's it's the circumstances of the body it's using. And

then what is then the fundamental difference between my consciousness and

your consciousness? Yeah. I mean, that is a big question because and I don't

really know the answer to that. Well, right. I mean, that's that's the kind of

question after somebody, like, tokes a big bowl or

whatever. Like, dude, what's the point of the answer?

Our consciousness is man. I I mean, I guess look. So

so where I'm at with that at the moment

is that we're all

come from some same source.

And at the same time, this is very paradoxical. That's how I think. You know?

And that is, you know, sometimes when you start getting to this

stuff, you don't need to token bowls anymore. Like, you just get these experiences where

you go far out. Is that can this be him? So,

yeah. So that on the 1 hand, we're all essentially from the

same source, but at the same time, we've become

individuated. And so we're all

individual, you know, individuated units of something that we

don't actually understand yet, really, what it is. And we are

going through these, you know, vast

chains of experiences across lifetimes,

much vaster than we think. I think often we think about lifetimes and, oh,

well, I probably was you know, I was a servant here and a king

there, and maybe I was this. But we

have had I think we've had 1,000 of lives here in other

planets and in other, you know, other kinds of beings.

And and that's what makes us you know, that's what makes you, you, and me,

me, and everybody listening, you know, individual. And you call that the

existential seriality? Yes. Yep.

Yep. So a series of existences that we've had.

And so, you know, it's this it's this it's

this paradox, I think, that we are really all the same. We're

really all, you know, expressions

of what I call, you know, the ultimate being. And

at the same time, we are infinitely individuated. Through thousands

of lives Yes. And through our different and also within those thousands of

lives, we have the different, the bodies of each life.

Yep. And, you know, I think that's interesting there because that's also very,

a very old concept Yes. In in that idea of the multiple

bodies because I remember talking

to Jan Van Eiselstein, about her book The Spirits

from the Edge of the World, where she was trying to

preserve as much of, you know, Siberian shamanism

Oh. As she could. And and, you know, it was like the

like 1 of the longest civilizations,

like uninterrupted civilizations in the world where they had

been, you know, they had been living there for Mike

75 100 years. And the shamans there would

often talk about, well, we got of course, we have several different bodies. We have

the, you know, the bodies that we fly with the spirits Yes. And then the

bodies we have where we're eating you know, going fishing and things like that.

And, you know, that idea is just a very,

very ancient thought. So, you know, we think about the new

age movement, well, we call it the new age. Yes. But it seems

to be the, you know, basically the old age movement, really.

Absolutely. And, look, I I if I can, you know, up the up the date

ante there because because I work with Aboriginal Australia and Oh, sure. That's

often described as the oldest living culture on earth too. And,

they because I I think what makes Aboriginal Australia so

as interesting, environment is that, you know, there

was largely no connection for with other cultures

for a good 50000 years. And so,

and they keep finding they keep raising the date further and

further as they do more archaeological work. And so we know

that, basically, what people say here has

been here for that long time, you know, 5000 years.

And, yeah, people talk a lot about astral travel, you know,

extra like, not out of body experiences. And

1 thing I found really interesting, you might have heard of that concept of the

silver cord that people talk about in the OB literature that there is this

cord that Right. There's something that connects you back. It connects the psychosoma back to

the physical body to to, you know, Mike a flow of energy.

But Aboriginal people talk about that. And so

that for me is is gives it a really good it has strong

evidentiary value because that you know, it wasn't an idea

either. It's a very resilient idea that came here a 100000 years

ago or something has persisted, or it's actually something people are really

experiencing here as well as in the Monro Institute and in Siberia and

in Africa. And so have you had that have you seen the cord or

whatever in your own particular out of body experiences? I have not

seen my own cord. I have seen,

I've sometimes I run workshops for people, out of body workshops.

And in those, I've seen other people's cords with

a, you know, sort of, I guess, you'd say clairvoyant. I don't

know. It just seems to happen sometimes. What, you know, what do you think is

the, you know, we talk about the multiple bodies

and the multiple lives. Because if if consciousness is like this force

in the universe, you know, or, you know, this source of

energy, and then it finds its way

into different kinds of experiences from the spiritual,

from you know, to the physical, and then it just keeps on recurring.

And, you know, what do you think then might be the best

way to get closer to your own

particular consciousness or to, you know, to to feel closer

to the source rather than feel more separated from the rest

of the world. Yeah. That's I like the way you phrased that because feeling closer

to the source, I think, really also helps us feel closer

to everybody around us, you know, to feel connected to life because

as you say, Mike, it's it's everywhere.

Look. I think I think the processes for that, you know,

have been explored in so many

different in so many different spiritual traditions.

And it it essentially seems to come back to what we talked

about in the beginning. You know, making ourselves present, being in the

moment, and,

slowing ourselves down. Connecting with nature, I

find really helps. So when we talk

about energy and I talked about before about being being influenced by all this,

everybody else's energy, when you go to nature, energy is

much more peaceful and nourishing and expansive.

So just taking some time, you know,

every day, just spending a bit of time connecting with whatever you've got, you know,

whether it's a pot plant or a tree in your garden or if you're lucky

enough to go to the beach, you know, that's that's a great place.

And really stop and really connect with

your own your own body and your own energies. I

mean, I really always encourage people to connect, to to get familiar with their

own energies and, ideally do some regular

energy work. Do you see consciousness expressed

in nonhuman life? Yes. For sure. You mean,

like, animals and, like, other animals rather and Animals or even

trees or, you know, anything like that. You you maybe think about nature. It's it's

this idea that consciousness, like, we all have our bits of it or

whatever that have evolved in our bodies through through

lifetimes and through, the lived experience that

we have in this body and this head. But

do we see elements of consciousness in

nature or even in things that are not natural, man made

things? So definitely in

nature. 1 of my favorite workshops

to do is is an out of is an outdoor energy workshop where we

spend time, you know, moving energies and then connecting with at 1

stage, you connect with different trees and plants around you.

And you I mean, the trees have different personalities.

You know? Sure. They they they,

yeah, they feel different. They sent you you get different information

from them and the same with with plants. So so

all kinds of plants. Yes. And, you know, insects,

everything down to the virus, I think, is is is consciousness

manifesting itself. No bacteria.

Man Mike things, I don't think they have consciousness, but they have

they Mike reflect the energy of the creators. You know,

the the I mean, anything that's made started off in people's minds and

people's thoughts, and then people invested energy in making it.

And so in that sense, they carry they might, you know, Mike buildings

or or cars or, you know, anything really

carries a certain energy, but it's not

consciousness. However, you know, consciousness

can so sometimes electronic I was just looking at

my computer. I was thinking about those objects. And that's

electronics are a space that nonphysical consciousness seems to be able

to, you know, interfere with sometimes and and kind of

let us know it's there or so sometimes we think the computer has a

consciousness, but I think that's actually someone

else. Right. So I'd like a you know, some other consciousness playing with

it. Well, that's the idea too of that, you know, the electronic voice phenomenon

that we have in, you know, the paranormal investigation world.

Or, you know, when people use their spirit boxes and

they think that, you know, they hear, you know, someone say words to

them, affecting the words by being able

to manipulate something in the electronics and

make it say the message that you wanna say to the people. There's, you

know, just 1 more concept I think I wanna explore from the book

that I think is is a good 1, for a lot of people

who you know, for any of us who have this idea of,

well, it's a spiritual universe or there's more to it

than we know. I think is your, you know, your evolutionary

superiority syndrome. Oh, yes. And, you know, you can talk about

that in the book. And you wanna explain that and maybe give a

tip on how we can try to avoid that.

Well, so what happened because for whatever

reason, you know, I started meditating, and I very quickly started getting

these kind of transcendental experiences and,

all these, you know, out of body states and all

that stuff. 1 thing that kicked in for me was

this personality trait that was, you know, not a very nice

personality trait is that I

had this sense of superiority. You know, something special.

And, you know, I understand I understand

now, the source of that in

in in past lives of,

kind of, you know, religious hierarchies and and and,

you know, assuming this this mantle of being superior

as a lot of religions have that. Right?

The untouchable, you know, people like the pope and other other

high places. So you you you can't be critical and so

on. So somehow I carried something like that,

it seems. And and I know, you know, I've I've I guess

I've seen it in in others as well. I think it it's

it's, in some ways, perhaps the fact of something change something opening

up that seems to make you so different from most other people around you. You

know, people who don't think about this, and you somehow think, well, I must be

special. You know? Right. And and or and you or

you guys aren't just paying attention. So Yeah. You're idiots. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. I've got the direct line to god,

and, I'm gonna go, talk to him with my 3rd eye. See

you. Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. So look. I think it's a real trap. It certainly it certainly

was, for me, and

I still like to remind myself of

just how important it is just to be a guy. You know, I was really

so what really helped me was have a family, have kids. They get you take

you down to down down a peg or 2 very quickly. Right.

So, yeah, I think I think the the yeah.

And the important thing, really, when I look at it now is it was also

you know, I don't know if you know the idea of spiritual bypassing. You probably

come across that. Like, it was it I was essentially bypassing a

lot of pain by by,

going, oh, well, I'm up here now. I'm up here. I don't actually have to

deal with these these, you know, my messed up relationship with

my parents or whatever, you know, human stuff because

I'm I've I've discovered this other world. And so

I guess going, you know, honoring our humanity,

Mike, realizing that we all have parents and all have childhood stuff, and we all

got stuff we gotta do here just as a normal human being as

well as ideally, you know, embracing our our multidimensional

nature. I think that'll I think that can help

us, yeah, sort of stay

Stay grounded. Sort of stay grounded. Exactly. It it it really is hard.

You know you know, namaste, the idea that there is something in you

that I also have in Mike, it really is

hard to remember that sometimes when you wanna strangle

somebody. That, you know, no matter how much you wanna

just murder that person Yeah. You also

have to understand that there is a piece of them

that is exactly like you, and it's a

reason to have some compassion no matter what they've

done. And that's probably trying to look at that little piece of

consciousness, that we all come from the same source

and try to remember that next time you wanna pull somebody's hair out for

doing something stupid. Yeah. You know, so that you know, I really did.

You know, when I thought about that, the, the the spiritual superiority

syndrome, it really is something. It's easy to look

at, like, look at those apes. They're not they're not thinking about the same

things that we are, or they're just thinking about football or,

you know, something stupid when you you know, when you're trying to look at, you

know, how are people more Mike than they're different?

Yeah. And that's and you find yourself trying to

understand or be at least empathetic. And it doesn't seem

probably unless you're fighting in a war or something like that, it it

never seems to be wrong or at

least to lead to bad things if you on the side of empathy.

Absolutely. I don't think you can ever on the side of empathy.

So, you know, I just I I Mike that concept and how you talked about

it. And, you know, I would love to go off and talk we're gonna have

to bring you back and talk about, like, OBE tips and things

like that, but we kinda wanna just I wanted to get you in and have

a discussion for the first time to talk about your philosophy of this

multidimensional evolution. And if there's 1 thing, like so

let's say, you know, you wanna get somebody first of all, you

guys can get a link directly to the book if you guys wanna buy it,

othersidepodcast.com/267. You'll be able to

find a link, to pick up Kim McCall's book in the show

notes. But at the same time, if there's 1

message that you think could kinda sum up the book or get that book you

know, that idea that, like, if you read my book, do

not miss this thing. What's that message?

Well, the thing that I like to to emphasize

and what I think opens up to us when we realize that we are

multidimensional beings is that we can really take every

moment isn't becomes an opportunity. Every moment becomes an opportunity

to connect more deeply with ourselves, more deeply with whoever

is in front of us, around us, and

to make some kind of contribution to life around us just

by the energies that we're putting out. Alright. Well, I wanna thank you very much

for joining us today, Kim. I appreciate you waking up early on the far side

of the world to join us here to talk about your multi dimensional evolution

book. I wanna wish you luck on your journey. I mean, from,

Germany to the UK to Indonesia to Rio de

Janeiro, to Central Australia, your spiritual

and academic journey has taken you all over the planet,

and I just hope that it keeps you going on that same kind of adventure

because it seems like it's a lot of fun. Thank you, Mike. I really appreciate

that. I'm really happy to be on here.

You know, 1 thing that particularly struck me from our book and the conversation

is the idea that, well, you've heard the expression that we're

just spiritual beings having a physical experience. But Kim

says it's more like we are a consciousness having a spiritual and a physical

experience. Now that struck me because it seems to make more sense. If consciousness

is an energy that all comes from the same place and we are bits of

that consciousness that only differentiate each other through the experiences we feel in our

bodies, and Kim would say in many bodies over many lifetimes,

then that unity we all feel sometimes after meditation or through a psychedelic

drug, that oneness, man, is because consciousness itself

isn't different. It's just the bodies that express itself through are different. The

whole namaste thing is even more powerful when you realize that other people are built

in the same stuff as you. Their experiences have just led them to where

they are, even if they're in opposition to yours. It just helps to

engender a little empathy when you realize that everyone else is dealing with their own

crap too. You know, it kind of reminds me of that Aristotelian idea of

the divine spark. That, there's and gnostics have

that too, that there's a little bit of God, of the divine, in each and

every 1 of us, and that's the part we try to access when we pray

or do something spiritual. It's that idea of the breath

of life. Consciousness exists as a universal force that

we all come from and we all go back to. There's not just a finite

number of souls that exist independently of each other. It's all 1

thing. It's all the breath of life. And that's the idea behind this week's

Sunspot song,

Breathe.

I've seen this cruel and angry world from every

way. I've seen what people do when they

need to survive. I've seen

the ugly face of the

human

I felt the guide in hand. I've seen

the promised land. Now, once that switch

is flipped, it can't turn on.

Well, there's

Thank you for listening to today's episode. You can find us

online at othersidepodcast.com. Until next

Mike, see you on the other side.

Hi, everyone. This is Wendy. Before I head off to meditate after that

inspiring interview Mike did with Kim McCall, I would love to thank

all of our Patreon community members. They are the people that make it

possible for us to continue producing this podcast and

to continue creating new original music, and to

continually explore bigger and better things that we can share with you here on the

podcast. Now, I'd like to send an extra huge thank you to

Ned. Doctor Ned is pledging us at a level that he gets this

custom shout out every episode, and we truly appreciate your support,

Ned, and all of our community members. We had such a good time at our

hangout last week. 1 of our monthly hangouts is a perk that you can get

by joining our community, and you can do that by visiting

othersidepodcast.com/donate. Thanks again for

listening and have a wonderful week.

Meanwhile, I've got the direct line to God,

and, I'm gonna go, talk to him in my 3rd eye. See

you.