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#041 Shawn Wells - The Hidden Cause of Your Fatigue
Episode 41 • 9th November 2025 • vP life • vitalityPRO
00:00:00 01:01:09

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Shawn Wells, MPH, LDN, RD, CISSN, FISSN is a globally recognized nutritional biochemistry expert with more than 20 years of experience in health, wellness, and product formulation. He has formulated over 1,100 products and holds 40+ patents, including enfinity® (Paraxanthine) and BHB salts. He has served as Chief Clinical Dietitian, Chief Science Officer, and advisor to multiple supplement companies, facilitating transactions exceeding half a billion dollars. Shawn authored the bestselling book The Energy Formula, featured by USA Today and Forbes, and he shares cutting-edge research on Mindvalley, in documentaries, and on his website shawnwells.com. He frequently speaks at events globally.

 > During our discussion, you’ll discover:

(00:07:08) Shawn’s journey with psilocybin

(00:19:19) How psilocybin can be used to treat various autoimmune issues 

(00:22:20) How can psilocybin and other adaptogens help improve mitochondrial function

(00:25:56) Shawn’s take on the longevity industry 

(00:37:38) Why having dysregulated blood sugar is bad

(00:40:56) Berberine vs Dihydroberberine

(00:44:41) Omega 3s

(00:47:38) The active form of Omega 3s

(00:51:01) Ergothionine

(00:57:33) The weirdest supplement combinations Shawn has ever tried

(00:58:12) If you could only take 1 supplement, what would it be

(00:58:32) The most overrated health trend

(00:59:12) What is the next big supplement coming


The vP life Podcast is brought to you by vitalityPRO, a supplement company based in the UK that provides you with the latest in health, anti-ageing and longevity supplementation. What makes vitalityPRO unique is that it third-party tests every product batch for quality, purity, heavy metals and other contaminants. vitalityPRO’s mission is simple: provide you with confidence in the quality and effectiveness of your longevity supplements that focus on restoring your cellular health.

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Transcripts

Speaker:

Good morning, Sean, and thank you for

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joining us on the show today.

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I know you've just had a cold, so I'm

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thankful for your time.

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Now, I know we're going to be talking

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about a lot today, everything from your

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personal journey with CFS and your

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thoughts, as well as your thoughts on

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psilocybin and the state of the longevity

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industry as a whole.

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Before we get into that, though, would

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you mind quickly introducing yourself to

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the audience for us?

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To be honest, I don't think it's probably

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necessary, but there are always going to

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be a few people who are new to the scene

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and maybe aren't familiar with you.

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If we could just dig a bit deep into your

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story, I know, Adith, you started out in

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the product formulation space where you

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were pretty successful and then you ran

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into a series of health issues and that

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you were ultimately diagnosed with what I

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believe was obtututually at the moment.

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But yeah, if you could just walk us

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through that, I'll shut

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up and let you get into it.

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Yeah, you did it correctly.

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You know me well.

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I have had a slew of health issues, in

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particular autoimmune issues, as you

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mentioned, chronic fatigue syndrome,

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Hashimoto's, Epstein-Barr fibromyalgia.

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At one point, I couldn't get out of bed

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for about six months.

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Literally, it was a struggle to just

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crawl to the bathroom,

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which led to me really pushing down this

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path with a much greater fervor to

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understand what was going on with me and

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solutions for a way out, which led me to

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keto, paleo, intermittent fasting, immune

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health supplements, mitochondrial health,

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and all the things that I

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become so passionate about.

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I did have a brain tumor at one point,

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luckily non-cancerous, but it did cause a

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number of endocrine issues,

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severe headaches, etc.

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And then my accomplishments is I've

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written a best-selling book

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called The Energy Formula.

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It's an international bestseller.

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It was listed on Forbes

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and USA Today's top 20.

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It's just a great biohacking book, but it

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also addresses mental health and wellness

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and nootropics and supplement stacks.

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I'm sure your readers would love it.

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It exists in Kindle, ebook, Audible, as

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well as softcover, hardcover.

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I've formulated about 1200 supplements.

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I have a formulation company

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called Zone Halo Formulations.

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I've worked with hundreds of companies

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across the industry, some

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multi-billion dollar companies.

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I've spoke on stage in about 35 different

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countries, and I've patented about 40

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unique ingredients, which

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we're going to talk about today.

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Some of those things like parazanthine,

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baba, ergothionine,

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exogenous ketones, dihydroperine.

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There's a ton of ingredients that I've

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worked on, dilucine, and I'm sure we'll

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get into some of them today.

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Probably lastly, and maybe most

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importantly, I battled

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mental health issues.

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I had trauma and abuse early in my life,

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and I really dealt with chronic anxiety,

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depression, and suicidal ideation.

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Psychedelics is something that I have

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become a big proponent of.

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It helped guide me through some really

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dark chapters to where I love my life.

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I'm proud of my life,

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proud of my accomplishments.

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I've found new love and family in ways I

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never thought possible.

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My businesses have 10Xed.

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I'm just so grateful

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that I had those tools.

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So that's something I speak on as well as

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the science of depression, the science of

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psychedelics, and mental

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health and wellness issues.

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That's incredible.

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I was fortunate enough to be able to

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watch your presentation with Mindvalley

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just regarding the Silasavan

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journey, and it was amazing.

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I'd love to talk about ketones and maybe

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out the scope of this particular

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interview, but that's what I did with

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most of my post-grad stuff and was

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looking at the effect of BHB, Estison,

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NMDA reception, how that can affect

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depression outcomes.

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I mean, ketones, bound in of themselves,

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are just an amazing molecule.

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But yeah, maybe we'll have to

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have round two at some point.

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Just take a step back quickly.

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The the pedurity adenoma, how did you

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first figure out, found out

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about the presence of that?

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Did you have an elevated prolactin or?

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Yeah, my prolactin was sky high.

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My testosterone was in the double digits.

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My free testosterone was

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basically non-existent.

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My beta estradiol, my

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estrogen was extremely high.

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So I started just

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getting really skinny fat.

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My body composition

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was radically changing.

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Like I said, I started

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getting really bad headaches.

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I felt fatigued all the time.

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I felt a pressure behind my eyes and that

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led to looking at my hormones.

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Seeing prolactin was very high and

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testosterone was very low and beta

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estradiol very high.

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And then that led them to

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do a CT scan of the brain.

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And we saw the pituitary adenoma and

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treated it with kubergoline as well as

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TRT and eczema stain to address a number

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of those hormonal issues.

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I don't take any of those anymore.

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It seems that I've been able

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to control it at this point.

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So yeah.

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Oh, that's fascinating.

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You didn't actually

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have the adenoma removed.

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You're just

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controlling it.

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Is that correct?

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Yeah, if I keep dopamine

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fairly high, then I do well.

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So I tend to stay on dopaminergics.

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Things like, actually my ingredient,

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pyrrhizanthine and metabolite of caffeine

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is highly dopaminergic.

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Tiresine, which I'm a big

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fan of, it just lights me up.

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I take a gram or two of

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tyrosine itself and I feel amazing.

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So just keeping the

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dopaminergics fairly high.

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There's a really interesting experimental

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ingredient, neutropic, that I've been

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playing with called 9MBC.

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And I'm a big fan of that one as well.

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That's fascinating.

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It's amazing that you've been able to

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make so much progress without necessarily

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going down the surgical route.

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Well, thank you for that intro, Sean.

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I know it's not easy being that

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vulnerable and I

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appreciate your candidness.

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Again, I know we could dissect that five

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ways till Sundays, but I suppose really

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maybe where we could start off with this,

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having a discussion around psilocybin,

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both with your experiences and thoughts.

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Now, I suppose,

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yeah, again, how it really helped you and

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then again, how you see it maybe beyond

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its scope of, not scope, but how it could

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be used or potentially beyond just being

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a mental health aid.

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I have some thoughts about how one might

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conceivably look at it

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as a longevity molecule.

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Maybe we could chat about those in a bit.

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But what was your

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journey with psilocybin like?

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Massive.

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I think it's, of all the entheogens and

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psychedelics, it's pretty

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gentle.

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I think it would be less intense than

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something like 5MEO or ayahuasca and some

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of these kinds of things.

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I certainly believe in any of these

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compounds not being used

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recreationally ideally, but used in a

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facilitated setting.

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And for me, that was the case.

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And I was able to go deeply

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into the psilocybin space.

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And for me, everything shifted.

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I didn't know

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I could be loved and have

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love in an unconditional way.

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For me, as a wounded type A, I was

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driving, I was building, I was never

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looking back and

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nothing was ever good enough.

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I kept climbing.

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Whatever the next rung on the ladder was,

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there was no joy at any level.

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And I believe that people could like me,

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congratulate me, but I also believe that

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that could go away at any second.

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That if I was not doing enough,

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accomplishing enough, making myself of

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value enough, then I didn't have worth.

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And that was very difficult.

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The abuse I put myself

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through for 40 plus years.

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And so getting in this space and feeling

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that, oh my goodness,

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you know, I can be loved.

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I can have love.

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Love can be unconditional.

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I can love myself.

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I can be a human being,

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not just a human doing.

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And I have worth whether

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I'm doing nothing or not.

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I can be loved whether

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I'm doing nothing or not.

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I can just be loved for me.

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And I can also take a breath and chase

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what lights me up instead of chase what

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gives me the most likes, what gives me

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the most money, what

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gives me the most attention.

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I can do things for myself and not just

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for others to earn their love.

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And this was a profound pivot for me.

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It sounds like something that you could

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rationalize very easily if someone was

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telling you these things, but it's a

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whole different thing when you anchor it

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in your heart and in your soul and you

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feel it and you feel it

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throughout your nervous system.

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And that trauma was stored in my nervous

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system, was stored in the constructs and

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the beliefs and how I acted day to day

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and to release those things.

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You could just see it in my face.

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You could feel it with my ease.

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You could hear it in my voice that I

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released this traumatic

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construct, these traumatic ideas.

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And I felt better.

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I slept better.

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I had a whole new lease on life.

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I had deeper friendships.

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I was more passionate at work.

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Everything shifted.

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Yeah, that's incredible.

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And there's definitely some parallels

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there that I can relate to.

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Not obviously getting into specifics of

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it, but something that I struggled with,

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and maybe you can relate to this, is this

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inability to feel loved.

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Were you able to identify?

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Can you identify that?

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And did you find psilocybin, the therapy

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with psilocybin was able

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to resolve any of that?

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It absolutely was.

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The first journey I went on, the first

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experience, facilitated experience,

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gave me a deep sense of God's love,

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universe love, love of myself,

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love of people around me in

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a way that I hadn't accepted.

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When you believe that

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you're not worth loving,

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when you live in that space, you cannot

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give a deep enough love.

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And you can certainly not receive love in

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a way that is as deep

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as it possibly could be.

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There's a barrier to intimacy.

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So these constructs were preventing me

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from experiencing love.

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I was literally created barriers, even

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though it was the one

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thing I truly wanted.

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And when you're in the psilocybin space,

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and some of these other individuals

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potentially, it can melt that default

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mode network, turn off those barriers,

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melt those constructs, and have you

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dissolution of the ego and have you in a

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highly neuroplastic space where you can

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create new synapses, new connections,

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create new neural wiring

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that can rewrite that code.

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You're essentially going into the

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operating system and cracking open the

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computer case and

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just rewriting that code.

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And that is profound in a way that I

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struggle to see how therapy itself, and

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that's a controversial statement, but I

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believe this because if you're not...

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When we're depressed,

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default mode network is

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higher than it normally is.

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When we're depressed, we're

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almost no neuroplasticity.

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We stay in loops.

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When we're depressed, all the

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neurotransmitters are

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turned down, so we feel less.

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And this is a protective mechanism.

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When we're in the entheogen space, all

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those neurotransmitters

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are turned up globally.

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That neuroplasticity

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is turned up globally.

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There's more blood flow to the brain.

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Default mode network is turned off.

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Neuroinflammation is turned down, and

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then anything is possible.

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That idea that you've been skiing down

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the same ski slope and there's tracks and

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you're following those tracks because

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you've always followed those tracks and

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it makes the most sense because the

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tracks are there before you.

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And so you'll keep

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following those tracks.

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Whether or not it's the most ideal way

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for you now, it's the most

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enjoyable way down the mountain.

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It's the fastest way down the mountain.

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You don't know.

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You just know there's tracks there.

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But when you can throw fresh powder over

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the trail and then recreate

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your way down the mountain,

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that's a game changer.

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No, it definitely is.

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And I loved what you said about therapy.

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I think therapy obviously has its place,

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but it's so one-dimensional.

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I mean, how many people do you know, I'm

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sure, who have been in therapy for 20

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years and who've made

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absolutely zero progress?

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And you just look at it objectively and

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think, well, at some point you've

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actually got to take a step back and say,

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"Is this really working?"

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And I think what Siles Abin and other

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psycholetics do so effectively is they

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bridge that gap between the physical, the

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spiritual,

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metaphysical, and the emotional.

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And I was listening,

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ironically enough, to Dr.

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Daniel Arman, who you're obviously

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familiar with this morning on Chris

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Williamson's podcast, talking about how

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so much mental health is

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actually sort of a brain

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health issue first and foremost.

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And what I love about psychedelics is, as

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I've just alluded to and as you alluded

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to, is they're able to sort of bridge

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this gap between the physical dysfunction

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in terms of rewiring so many of these

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sort of dysfunctional, somatic pathways

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in the brain, and then also allowing you

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to process that whatever trauma or issue

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is going on in your life.

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I think it's incredible.

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And it's an effective

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way of doing it too.

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You don't have to sit there and try and

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work through complex sessions where

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you're processing a lot of emotion.

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Anyway, before I got

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into that, Robert Hall,

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how did your session

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work with Stila Sabin?

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I assume you didn't do five gram

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peridosis from the get-go.

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I did, actually.

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I did.

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Okay, fair enough.

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It wasn't my intention, but they kind of

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upped my dose during this experience

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because I felt safe.

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I was in an environment where that was

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the other thing that was so profound for

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me, is that I was in a cuddle puddle on

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the floor where you have blankets and

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pillows, and I was just going deep

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internally, but people

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were holding space for me.

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And that was what was so profound.

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I'm like, I didn't know.

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A lot of these people in this room, by

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the way, this was like a group journey

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situation with about 20 people.

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Most of them were doing lighter doses,

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but a lot of them were

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celebrities and people I admired.

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But most of them did not

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know who I was at the time.

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And I had all of these people that were

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surrounding me, holding space for me,

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laying next to me, asking

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me if I needed anything.

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And I kept wrestling

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with it for several hours.

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Like, why are they doing this?

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They don't know who I am.

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They don't know the

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value I can bring to them.

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Why would they be kind?

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Why would they go out of their way in

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their experience to hold

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space for me, to help me?

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And it just finally broke me open.

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I'm like,

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because they just want to be kind because

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you deserve love, because you're going

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through something deeply and

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they want to be the change.

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They want to be the change that they want

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to see in the world.

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And so they want someone

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to hold space for them.

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So they're going to hold space for me.

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And that was massive for me.

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Massive.

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Yeah, I grew up in South Africa.

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And there's, for the most part, anyway,

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there's a word for that called Ubuntu.

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You may have.

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Yes, I put it in my book.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's that's exactly it.

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Sort of humanity to others.

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It's an incredibly sort of powerful term

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that encapsulates, I suppose,

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everything you've just said.

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Sean, I'd love to maybe talk about what

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you feel or maybe some of the physical

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sort of mechanisms or underpinnings

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behind psilocybin and what you and

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whether you think or not, it has

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potential beyond just

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being a mental health compound.

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I mean, the way I see it, anything that

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sort of rewires the central nervous

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system to the point where you're going to

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have a proper functioning, a vagal nerve

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and subsequently in a more effectively

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firing limbic system and an amygdala is

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going to have a trickle down

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effect on the immune system.

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And you're going to have lower levels of

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these pro-inflammatory cytokines that I

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know everybody is very familiar with

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after having gone through COVID.

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Do you think that there is scope for

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utilizing a compound like this in

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diseases like CFSME or inflammatory

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autoimmune conditions where there is just

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that sort of that

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constant hyperarousal of the CNS?

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I do.

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I do.

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I do believe that.

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I do believe that a lot of

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people are in fight or flight.

497

:

I believe that people are in that

498

:

sympathetic nervous

499

:

system with poor vagal tone.

500

:

I was one of those people that were

501

:

hypervigilant, essentially just looking

502

:

for how to survive from moment to moment,

503

:

thinking everyone and everything is a

504

:

threat to my well-being.

505

:

And that's exhausting in terms of ATP and

506

:

energy utilization and

507

:

these energy systems.

508

:

But certainly on a

509

:

nervous or electrical system,

510

:

like globally kind of scenario as well.

511

:

So, it's taking a toll on you.

512

:

And this is where Dr.

513

:

Joe Dispenza, Dr.

514

:

Bruce Lipton talk about these things

515

:

being stored in the body as disease.

516

:

So, over time, your

517

:

suppression doesn't equal dissolution.

518

:

The suppression equals

519

:

storing it away as disease.

520

:

So, to not deal with these emotions, I

521

:

love the movie Inside Out, by the way,

522

:

because it talks about you recognize the

523

:

emotion, you thank the emotion, you give

524

:

it its space and then release it.

525

:

And this is what we should do with

526

:

emotions that come up, and

527

:

most certainly trauma as well.

528

:

We need to deal with these traumas and

529

:

move on from them as best we can, but

530

:

certainly not in a suppressive or kind of

531

:

self-gaslighting kind of way, but

532

:

acknowledging it, dealing with it, going

533

:

deep with it, recognizing the lessons

534

:

it's giving you, being thankful for it,

535

:

and then just moving on from it.

536

:

Yeah, it's one of my greatest ambitions.

537

:

I'm sure you're familiar with Dr.

538

:

Robert Navio, who's sort of coined a lot

539

:

of the work around cell

540

:

danger response theory.

541

:

The idea that mitochondria, when they're

542

:

in a stress state, adapts to

543

:

a state of lowered ATP output.

544

:

And I just am adamant

545

:

that by regulating, and Dr.

546

:

Navio has done a lot of research looking

547

:

into regulating the CNS

548

:

with various therapies.

549

:

I think he's worked with,

550

:

it's gone straight out of my head, the

551

:

gentleman who put together trauma release

552

:

exercises, for example, that I'm sure

553

:

you're familiar with, David Bacelli.

554

:

But I'm sure a compound, I'd love to see

555

:

how a compound such as this would improve

556

:

mitochondrial function directly just by

557

:

way of sort of

558

:

improving their own nerve tone.

559

:

Well, along those lines, Rob, this is why

560

:

I recommend adaptogens so deeply,

561

:

certainly going into a facilitated

562

:

journey, but also just in general.

563

:

I love these compounds that are bimodal

564

:

in terms of enhancing

565

:

resilience because it's enhancing you.

566

:

So therefore it will help with better

567

:

sleep and better energy.

568

:

It will help to normalize your functions

569

:

across the body because it's increasing

570

:

what's called your allostatic capacity.

571

:

And therefore your

572

:

capacity to have more

573

:

of an allostatic load.

574

:

And that just means that you can handle

575

:

more stress in your stress bucket.

576

:

Your bucket is bigger, so to speak.

577

:

So you can deal with more

578

:

mental and physical stress.

579

:

So I love the adaptogens, things like

580

:

ginseng, ashwagandha, rhodiola,

581

:

maka.

582

:

Most of the functional mushrooms are like

583

:

that, and certainly potentially a number

584

:

of the psilocybin mushrooms

585

:

would be like that as well.

586

:

So a huge fan of the adaptogens.

587

:

Yeah, they're incredibly powerful.

588

:

I'm always slightly concerned about, and

589

:

I think there's a bit of an old wives'

590

:

tale there about some of the issues with

591

:

5L production and things like lion's mane

592

:

and ashwagandha, for that matter.

593

:

I don't know outside of Reddit, there's

594

:

not much data on it that's been peer

595

:

reviewed to show that

596

:

this is really is an issue.

597

:

But do you have any thoughts

598

:

there just with regard to...

599

:

It's possible.

600

:

Lion's mane is probably not my favorite

601

:

in terms of neuroplasticity.

602

:

Actually a compound called

603

:

7,8-dihydroxyflavone seems to be the most

604

:

potent and potentially it's metabolites

605

:

called 4-dimethylamino or DMA,

606

:

7,8-dihydroxyflavone.

607

:

I know that sounds like a lot, but you

608

:

can get both of these compounds on sites

609

:

like Neutropic's Depot.

610

:

I know it has them.

611

:

You're starting to see

612

:

7,8-dihydroxyflavone in some more

613

:

mainstream companies' products.

614

:

The 4-DMA is probably more gray market

615

:

and you won't see that, but those are

616

:

more potent for

617

:

neuroplasticity than a lion's mane.

618

:

When it comes to adaptogens, probably my

619

:

favorite by far and away is rhodiola and

620

:

in particular a pure selidricide, which

621

:

is the compound that is

622

:

the active in rhodiola.

623

:

It's not really the

624

:

rosabans, it's the selidricide.

625

:

And so if you can get a pure fermented

626

:

selidricide, that's

627

:

probably my most favorite.

628

:

No rhodiola is amazing and I know 4-DMA,

629

:

I believe that's available on soundstop

630

:

bio for anyone who is interested.

631

:

But yeah, they are incredible compounds.

632

:

I definitely think psilocybin as a whole

633

:

needs to be explored

634

:

beyond it just as mental health

635

:

use cases, which should be said.

636

:

I'm sure there's a synthetic chemist out

637

:

there who can whip up the metabolites and

638

:

formulate them accordingly.

639

:

Unfortunately, I don't know about you,

640

:

but we didn't do too much organic chem in

641

:

school when I was doing my biochem.

642

:

So I'll have to leave that to somebody

643

:

with more organic experience.

644

:

But anyway,

645

:

Sean, I'd love to sort of maybe start to

646

:

say, excuse me, to say we're into talking

647

:

about some supplements in a second, but

648

:

first I'd like to get your take on the

649

:

longevity industry as a whole.

650

:

Now, I'm a little bit of a cynic and I

651

:

feel almost every influencer out there

652

:

sort of, no matter what their message,

653

:

they always seem to come back to center.

654

:

So you've got your

655

:

Brian Johnsons who obviously

656

:

is the king of biohackers currently and

657

:

is doing things like working with that

658

:

company, miniserculin, altering his DNA

659

:

with clotho and what's the other compound

660

:

they follow statin, I

661

:

think they're trying to alter.

662

:

And then you've got guys like Paul

663

:

Saladino on the flip side to tell you

664

:

that Kel's going to kill you

665

:

if you look at it for too long.

666

:

What I find though is that most of them

667

:

whenever they start

668

:

talking about longevity,

669

:

no matter what their sort of, their

670

:

niches, they always

671

:

come back to the basics.

672

:

And they agree on the basics, so sleep,

673

:

community, a whole food

674

:

diet of one sort or another.

675

:

I'd love to know where you stand on this

676

:

through this sort of

677

:

longevity perspective.

678

:

Of course, we share a bias in the sense

679

:

that we believe that

680

:

nutraceuticals are effective.

681

:

But do you feel people who are trying to

682

:

optimize for longevity get caught up in

683

:

the minutiae of these compounds and

684

:

biohacks when they still maybe not

685

:

getting the basics into place?

686

:

Yes, I do.

687

:

And the book, The Energy Formula, by the

688

:

way, is Six Pillars.

689

:

So it's experiments, like as in knowing

690

:

where your baseline is and testing and

691

:

even testing what works for you just in

692

:

terms of journaling and keeping track of

693

:

these kinds of things, food

694

:

diaries as best as possible.

695

:

And I walk through that.

696

:

Then nutrition, like you

697

:

said, the basis is whole food.

698

:

Yes, you can go into Mediterranean or

699

:

Keto or some of these

700

:

other kinds of things,

701

:

even carnivores, you mentioned pulse, but

702

:

the basis is definitely whole food.

703

:

Everyone agrees on that.

704

:

Then exercise, the core component of

705

:

longevity, mental health, well-being,

706

:

etc., is certainly a number of forms of

707

:

exercise, including resistance training

708

:

and just cardiovascular fitness.

709

:

Then there is routines and having healthy

710

:

routines from how you wake

711

:

up with your morning routine.

712

:

Certainly, as you

713

:

mentioned, sleep hygiene,

714

:

having healthy

715

:

routines throughout the day.

716

:

Then growth and growth mindset is the G

717

:

that gets into resilience and the idea of

718

:

challenging the brain and keeping the

719

:

brain neuroplastic,

720

:

stoicism as a mentality.

721

:

And then lastly, as you mentioned, your

722

:

tribe, which is a hallmark of people that

723

:

are plugged in, that are doing their best

724

:

with their ikigai or ubuntu, as you

725

:

mentioned, are terms.

726

:

Certainly, all the blue zones talk about

727

:

being plugged in, having purpose and

728

:

passion and community and support.

729

:

And we see the number one

730

:

killer really is loneliness.

731

:

And so absolutely community is huge.

732

:

So I'm a fan of all of

733

:

those basics, as you say.

734

:

And then of course, I mentioned, because

735

:

I'm the supplement guy, I mentioned

736

:

supplement stacks in each chapter.

737

:

And do I think that supplements may be

738

:

over relied upon even

739

:

as a supplement guy?

740

:

Yes, I do.

741

:

I do think that there's no magic bullets.

742

:

I do think if you're getting three hours

743

:

of sleep, but relying on

744

:

supplements for anti aging,

745

:

that is a very skewed mindset.

746

:

If you're getting drunk every night, but

747

:

taking exogenous ketones and creatine,

748

:

like that doesn't make sense.

749

:

Those things can have value, even if

750

:

you're doing a lot of these things wrong.

751

:

I'm not saying they don't have potential

752

:

value to at least mitigate some of the

753

:

damage you're doing, but it would make

754

:

more sense to reduce the damage you're

755

:

doing and live a life that's conducive to

756

:

greater longevity, health and well-being.

757

:

Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more.

758

:

And I mean, just working in a supplement

759

:

company myself, I get involved in a bit

760

:

of customer service.

761

:

And yeah, you often have to counsel

762

:

customers on whether and they'll come to

763

:

you and say, well, I want to enhance my

764

:

health band more longevity.

765

:

Is NMN going to do it?

766

:

And you just take them

767

:

through this very quick process.

768

:

Well, are you eating a whole foods diet?

769

:

Because I promise you, if you're trying

770

:

to feel better by taking NMN, it may or

771

:

may not do anything, depending on a whole

772

:

bunch of other variables.

773

:

But if you are eating the standard

774

:

Western diet, because it's not American

775

:

or Swiss, let's be honest,

776

:

it's not going to help in the slightest.

777

:

And yeah, again, everything you've just

778

:

said, you have to get those basics into

779

:

place before going down the rabbit hole.

780

:

Well, let me take that

781

:

one step further, Rob.

782

:

And this is something I've been

783

:

exploring, whether we're talking about

784

:

supplements or psychedelics or basically

785

:

any intervention that's

786

:

healthy and beneficial for you.

787

:

If your nervous system,

788

:

which a friend of mine,

789

:

Dr.

790

:

Steven Young likes to say electrical

791

:

system because the NLP

792

:

aspects of saying nervous system.

793

:

But if your electrical system or your

794

:

nervous system is constantly in fight or

795

:

flight, is you're

796

:

constantly in sympathetic.

797

:

If you are rarely getting into

798

:

parasympathetic rest and digest, you're

799

:

rarely getting the

800

:

vagal tone that you need.

801

:

Then you are not in a space to utilize,

802

:

to absorb, to store, to ideally use these

803

:

nutrients that you're taking, and be it

804

:

from food, be it from supplements, be it

805

:

from antigens or whatnot.

806

:

This is the problem because

807

:

you are not in that space.

808

:

And so many of us are taking 100

809

:

supplements because we feel tired, we

810

:

feel exhausted, we feel overwhelmed, and

811

:

you're not in a space to

812

:

properly utilize these things.

813

:

So finding ways to get yourself into

814

:

parasympathetic nervous system.

815

:

Why do you think that it's been a

816

:

psychosomatic anchor basis for when we

817

:

eat to families pray or meditate or take

818

:

a minute before they eat?

819

:

They're dropping into parasympathetic and

820

:

then they're giving themselves the

821

:

placebo effect or whatever way you want

822

:

to say that of thank you for this food

823

:

we're about to receive for the

824

:

nourishment of my body.

825

:

What do you think that

826

:

affirmation is doing?

827

:

It's putting you in a space where now

828

:

you're going to utilize

829

:

these nutrients better.

830

:

Your nervous system is in a

831

:

completely different state.

832

:

And why do you think they call

833

:

parasympathetic rest and digest and they

834

:

call sympathetic fight flight or freeze?

835

:

There's no resting, there's no digesting

836

:

happening and sympathetic.

837

:

So think about that.

838

:

If you're not in parasympathetic when

839

:

you're taking your supplements, when

840

:

you're eating your food,

841

:

you're not using it ideally.

842

:

And then take that one step further, even

843

:

the healthiest food that we're having.

844

:

But if we're training our bodies for

845

:

whenever we're having this healthy food

846

:

that we're stressed or under attack,

847

:

let's say we're only eating when we're

848

:

driving our car, when we're at work and

849

:

we're under heavy stress.

850

:

Now the body will shortcut and create

851

:

that neural wiring to say whenever you

852

:

eat, this means you're under stress.

853

:

Therefore, when you

854

:

eat, it creates stress.

855

:

It's almost like a form of NLP, isn't it?

856

:

You are teaching your body to associate

857

:

an action with another action and then

858

:

that negatively has a downstream

859

:

consequence in the eating.

860

:

So I would assume that would be a perfect

861

:

example of how you drive

862

:

something like leaky gut.

863

:

If you've got a digestive system that's

864

:

compromised due to the high levels of

865

:

stress, you're not going to

866

:

digest that food properly.

867

:

You're going to break down that

868

:

epithelial lining in your gut and then

869

:

you go into the ingress of

870

:

LPS and what was your alcohol

871

:

dysfunctional physiology thereafter.

872

:

So yeah, I think that's amazing.

873

:

And I just

874

:

I mean, you just touched on

875

:

so many good points there.

876

:

Like I sort of briefly mentioned offline,

877

:

I'm working through some of my own CFS

878

:

types of issues and for ages I've been

879

:

sort of trying to sort of piece together,

880

:

excuse me, this sort of functional

881

:

medicine model and

882

:

depending on who you go to,

883

:

there are so many practitioners who will

884

:

sort of start off with the gut, start off

885

:

with assos in your hormone,

886

:

start off detoxifying you.

887

:

But I do believe and just sort of, I've

888

:

recently been, I've had the privilege of

889

:

working with a gentleman called Justin

890

:

McGuire who's phenomenal.

891

:

One day I'll be able to

892

:

say that word correctly.

893

:

He's a big proponent of psilocybin.

894

:

I actually have to introduce the term.

895

:

But anyway, just working with him and

896

:

realizing that if you take a CNS sort of

897

:

centric focus on healing the body,

898

:

whether that's through a psilocybin

899

:

communities, vagal nerve, stimulators,

900

:

breath work, as Dallic Anglian blogs all

901

:

of the above, I think as an individual,

902

:

you are just priming your body to then

903

:

actually make the most of the the

904

:

modalities that you're then going to use

905

:

to actually try and heal

906

:

the underlying dysfunction.

907

:

And that's, yeah, so thank you for that.

908

:

That was just an amazing add-on and

909

:

something that I would have

910

:

never thought to have included.

911

:

So yeah.

912

:

Okay, so obviously that all being said,

913

:

we are supplement guys.

914

:

And at the end of the day, I went just

915

:

going back to the

916

:

longevity side of things.

917

:

I do think when looking at longevity and

918

:

trying to optimize for longevity, two of

919

:

the variables that one might look to as

920

:

being the most important,

921

:

at least physiologically are arguably

922

:

glycemic variability, so blood sugar

923

:

control and then inflammation.

924

:

Now, I don't know if you agree or not,

925

:

but I think that would be a pretty good

926

:

place to start to then maybe

927

:

get into the supplement side.

928

:

But yeah, just from a physiological

929

:

standpoint, could you talk us through why

930

:

maybe having dysregulated blood sugar and

931

:

high levels of

932

:

inflammation is such a problem?

933

:

Obviously, there's the AGE side

934

:

of things and all of that.

935

:

Yes, exactly.

936

:

Advanced glycation end

937

:

products are aptly named as AGEs.

938

:

And for most, glycation is causing

939

:

significant damage as a result.

940

:

And when you look at glycation, that

941

:

blood sugar damage, you also see

942

:

increased inflammation,

943

:

oxidation, dyslipidemia.

944

:

Most disease, almost all disease is

945

:

metabolic in nature.

946

:

And therefore, at the root of this, we

947

:

can find metabolic dysfunction via high

948

:

blood glucose and insulin, and then

949

:

ultimately, mitochondrial dysfunction

950

:

with impaired energy output and the

951

:

mitochondria not having enough in number

952

:

and not functioning

953

:

as well as they could.

954

:

So having something like dihydroverberine

955

:

is going to address almost all of that,

956

:

which makes it profound.

957

:

That's why when we look at, there's

958

:

massive studies on metformin going on

959

:

right now with the government's funding

960

:

studies of like 20,000 people.

961

:

There is huge studies.

962

:

And those are both AMP-K activators.

963

:

They both work on this blood sugar

964

:

glycation pathway, anti-glycation.

965

:

They both help with

966

:

reducing the effect of viruses, reducing

967

:

inflammation,

968

:

improving dyslipidemia, etc.

969

:

What I found with berberine, and even

970

:

when you look up things

971

:

like metformin, you see

972

:

GI distress, you see a

973

:

number of side effects.

974

:

You don't see with dihydroverberine.

975

:

The doses are so much lower with

976

:

dihydroverberine than berberine because

977

:

it has greater bioavailability, about

978

:

five times as much bioavailability, and

979

:

it lasts about twice as long in plasma.

980

:

So you only need to take a small dose

981

:

twice a day versus a

982

:

large dose three times a day.

983

:

You have less of that GI distress and

984

:

just a greater efficacy.

985

:

We also see that it increases GLP1 pretty

986

:

dramatically as well.

987

:

So it's really exciting.

988

:

It's a fascinating compound.

989

:

Could you break down what exactly it is?

990

:

The difference between berberine and

991

:

dihydroverberine is

992

:

obviously dihydroverberine.

993

:

I think is your product luke

994

:

advantage, is that correct?

995

:

Correct.

996

:

Yeah, it's starting to pop up more, but

997

:

just from a sort of a molecular

998

:

standpoint, what is the difference

999

:

between these two compounds?

:

00:41:23,375 --> 00:41:25,833

Yes, so berberine, when it's metabolized

:

00:41:27,125 --> 00:41:31,750

in the body at the gut level, is

:

00:41:31,750 --> 00:41:33,791

converted into dihydroverberine.

:

00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,500

And then at plasma level, which means in

:

00:41:36,500 --> 00:41:37,500

the blood, is converted

:

00:41:37,500 --> 00:41:39,708

back to berberine again.

:

00:41:40,541 --> 00:41:43,000

So what we're seeing is that there's a

:

00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,625

lot of bio individuality, meaning we all

:

00:41:46,625 --> 00:41:48,416

kind of experience it different.

:

00:41:48,416 --> 00:41:50,041

We all metabolize it a little different

:

00:41:50,041 --> 00:41:51,541

based on our gut microbiome.

:

00:41:52,875 --> 00:41:54,125

And we're taking that

:

00:41:54,125 --> 00:41:55,750

part out of the equation.

:

00:41:56,041 --> 00:41:57,791

So we're removing the bio individuality

:

00:41:57,791 --> 00:42:00,541

that it only works well for about 60% of

:

00:42:00,541 --> 00:42:02,708

people when it comes to berberine.

:

00:42:03,291 --> 00:42:07,416

That's a large portion consider a GI

:

00:42:07,416 --> 00:42:09,250

distress, a big side effect.

:

00:42:10,291 --> 00:42:12,791

And so you're removing those pieces by

:

00:42:12,791 --> 00:42:16,083

going directly to the metabolite that is

:

00:42:16,083 --> 00:42:19,583

just cleanly going to work at the gut

:

00:42:19,583 --> 00:42:22,625

level, and then be converted back to

:

00:42:22,625 --> 00:42:25,125

berberine more effectively at plasma.

:

00:42:25,416 --> 00:42:29,458

And again, lasting much longer in plasma

:

00:42:29,458 --> 00:42:31,666

than standard berberine would as well.

:

00:42:31,875 --> 00:42:33,250

So it's very interesting.

:

00:42:33,500 --> 00:42:35,083

We thought it would be better, but now

:

00:42:35,083 --> 00:42:37,833

we've seen it just be night and day

:

00:42:37,833 --> 00:42:38,958

dramatically better

:

00:42:38,958 --> 00:42:40,083

than standard berberine.

:

00:42:40,916 --> 00:42:41,125

Yeah.

:

00:42:41,250 --> 00:42:43,375

And you've actually conducted trials, I

:

00:42:43,375 --> 00:42:44,625

believe, where you've compared it

:

00:42:44,625 --> 00:42:45,916

directly against metformin.

:

00:42:45,916 --> 00:42:46,375

Is that correct?

:

00:42:47,041 --> 00:42:48,166

Not metformin.

:

00:42:48,166 --> 00:42:50,458

There is a study that compares berberine

:

00:42:50,458 --> 00:42:52,625

to metformin, and berberine is superior.

:

00:42:53,083 --> 00:42:56,833

And clearly, we've compared berberine and

:

00:42:56,833 --> 00:42:58,708

dihydroverberine in studies

:

00:42:58,708 --> 00:43:00,791

with PK, pharmacokinetics.

:

00:43:01,375 --> 00:43:01,583

Yeah.

:

00:43:02,500 --> 00:43:05,416

And so I guess you could extrapolate

:

00:43:05,416 --> 00:43:08,875

that, but it certainly is

:

00:43:08,875 --> 00:43:10,208

far superior to berberine.

:

00:43:10,875 --> 00:43:11,250

Brilliant.

:

00:43:11,958 --> 00:43:14,458

Well, yeah, I definitely agree.

:

00:43:14,750 --> 00:43:16,541

And just on the gut side of things,

:

00:43:16,541 --> 00:43:19,916

obviously, berberine is an antimicrobial

:

00:43:19,916 --> 00:43:23,333

compound, and it's often used in cases

:

00:43:23,333 --> 00:43:25,750

of, well, in various GI issues, things

:

00:43:25,750 --> 00:43:28,375

like various forms of SIBA, for example.

:

00:43:29,916 --> 00:43:31,500

You alluded to this earlier when you said

:

00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:33,791

the absolute dose due to its sort of high

:

00:43:33,791 --> 00:43:35,500

bioavailability is lower.

:

00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,500

But with long-term use, is there still

:

00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:40,875

likely to be the potential for any GI

:

00:43:40,875 --> 00:43:43,708

issues, or is that not as much of a thing

:

00:43:43,708 --> 00:43:44,458

to worry about, perhaps?

:

00:43:44,875 --> 00:43:46,625

With berberine, it's

:

00:43:46,625 --> 00:43:48,208

very-- Well, dihydroverberine.

:

00:43:49,208 --> 00:43:52,750

Okay, with dihydroverberine, we have not

:

00:43:52,750 --> 00:43:56,333

seen any negative impact in terms of GI

:

00:43:56,333 --> 00:43:59,083

distress, short-term or long-term.

:

00:43:59,791 --> 00:44:02,458

With berberine, it's very difficult to

:

00:44:02,458 --> 00:44:05,000

say, as you said, sometimes it can remedy

:

00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:10,416

GI dysfunction and dysbiosis, but then in

:

00:44:10,416 --> 00:44:13,166

other cases, it seems to exacerbate it.

:

00:44:13,166 --> 00:44:16,250

So this is where it's very confusing, and

:

00:44:16,250 --> 00:44:17,708

we don't know all the

:

00:44:17,708 --> 00:44:19,375

reasons why quite yet.

:

00:44:20,125 --> 00:44:20,458

Fair enough.

:

00:44:21,666 --> 00:44:23,250

Yeah, it's definitely an exciting

:

00:44:23,250 --> 00:44:24,458

molecule, to be honest.

:

00:44:24,708 --> 00:44:26,708

I think most of these hydrogenated

:

00:44:26,708 --> 00:44:29,750

derivatives on the market, interesting,

:

00:44:29,958 --> 00:44:32,250

you've got dihydroquacetin,

:

00:44:33,541 --> 00:44:36,500

another one, what's dihydromercetin,

:

00:44:37,166 --> 00:44:38,250

there are a bunch there

:

00:44:38,250 --> 00:44:40,208

that just show so much promise.

:

00:44:40,708 --> 00:44:46,416

Okay, let's move on to omega-3s, which I

:

00:44:46,416 --> 00:44:47,333

know you have something

:

00:44:47,333 --> 00:44:50,875

that you love as well.

:

00:44:51,791 --> 00:44:54,000

Why are you especially partial to these,

:

00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:55,375

and do you have any preference

:

00:44:55,375 --> 00:44:57,625

for DHA or EPM in particular?

:

00:44:58,208 --> 00:44:59,416

That's an interesting one.

:

00:45:00,125 --> 00:45:02,416

People will say they're more

:

00:45:02,416 --> 00:45:04,000

of a fan of one or the other.

:

00:45:04,083 --> 00:45:08,750

I probably lean in terms of

:

00:45:08,750 --> 00:45:13,250

cardiovascular function, EPA and DHA in

:

00:45:13,250 --> 00:45:15,791

terms of brain function and brain health,

:

00:45:16,083 --> 00:45:18,375

and most people talk about

:

00:45:18,375 --> 00:45:21,750

getting a rich source in both.

:

00:45:23,125 --> 00:45:25,875

I think as long as the concentration of

:

00:45:25,875 --> 00:45:29,375

omega-3s is high, then that would be

:

00:45:29,375 --> 00:45:30,958

ideal, and I like the

:

00:45:30,958 --> 00:45:34,250

triglyceride form in particular.

:

00:45:36,750 --> 00:45:38,750

For me, I think just as long as the

:

00:45:38,750 --> 00:45:40,833

concentration is high, because it starts

:

00:45:40,833 --> 00:45:43,000

getting difficult to get enough of the

:

00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,625

omega-3 fatty acids, in particular your

:

00:45:46,625 --> 00:45:49,500

EPA, DHA, with some of the lower

:

00:45:49,500 --> 00:45:51,375

concentration ones, you're going to be

:

00:45:51,375 --> 00:45:55,291

taking 8 to 10 grams a day,

:

00:45:55,291 --> 00:45:58,041

and that is too much fish oil.

:

00:45:58,916 --> 00:46:01,458

For me, I would rather take a couple

:

00:46:01,458 --> 00:46:03,833

grams of a highly concentrated,

:

00:46:03,833 --> 00:46:07,875

molecularly distilled version that has

:

00:46:07,875 --> 00:46:10,500

IFOS certification, IFOS.

:

00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:12,666

That's something to look for when you're

:

00:46:12,666 --> 00:46:14,708

getting your fish oils.

:

00:46:15,958 --> 00:46:18,041

I couldn't agree more.

:

00:46:18,875 --> 00:46:20,916

I think one of the biggest challenges in

:

00:46:20,916 --> 00:46:24,125

the industry regarding fish oils is just

:

00:46:24,125 --> 00:46:25,416

this issue with oxidation.

:

00:46:25,916 --> 00:46:28,708

We just pulled our omega-3 product off

:

00:46:28,708 --> 00:46:29,583

because it failed its

:

00:46:29,583 --> 00:46:30,791

second oxidation test.

:

00:46:31,166 --> 00:46:32,916

It was from a major, well-respected

:

00:46:32,916 --> 00:46:34,416

supplier with a

:

00:46:34,416 --> 00:46:35,958

two-year promised shelf life.

:

00:46:35,958 --> 00:46:37,041

It was produced probably

:

00:46:37,041 --> 00:46:39,291

under a blanket of argon gas.

:

00:46:40,666 --> 00:46:45,000

It first tested, sailed through, TOTOCS

:

00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,375

value was fine, adhesitine rate, excuse

:

00:46:48,375 --> 00:46:52,875

me, I'm not even going

:

00:46:52,875 --> 00:46:53,708

to try and say that again.

:

00:46:53,916 --> 00:46:56,500

TOTOCS value was fine, and it passed, and

:

00:46:56,500 --> 00:46:59,583

then we did a second month follow-up, and

:

00:46:59,583 --> 00:47:00,750

it failed completely.

:

00:47:02,166 --> 00:47:05,708

Sometimes I just think, personally, it's

:

00:47:05,708 --> 00:47:08,041

probably just better to eat a lower

:

00:47:08,041 --> 00:47:11,708

omega-6 diet and then just get your

:

00:47:11,708 --> 00:47:14,666

omega-3s from natural sources.

:

00:47:15,916 --> 00:47:18,666

I suppose that's also what companies like

:

00:47:18,666 --> 00:47:20,166

Consumer Lab are really doing.

:

00:47:21,041 --> 00:47:23,208

What was the certification you mentioned?

:

00:47:23,583 --> 00:47:23,958

IFOS?

:

00:47:23,958 --> 00:47:24,875

IFOS, yes.

:

00:47:25,250 --> 00:47:26,416

IFOS, that's the one

:

00:47:26,416 --> 00:47:27,250

you want to look for.

:

00:47:28,250 --> 00:47:29,791

We'll definitely check that out.

:

00:47:30,250 --> 00:47:34,416

They are definitely useful compounds in

:

00:47:34,416 --> 00:47:36,125

helping to lower inflammation.

:

00:47:38,166 --> 00:47:40,291

What do you think, I suppose,

:

00:47:41,833 --> 00:47:43,250

and maybe this is a bit

:

00:47:43,250 --> 00:47:44,916

of an offhand question,

:

00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:47,750

but what do you think about just

:

00:47:47,750 --> 00:47:49,833

bypassing omega-3s and going straight for

:

00:47:49,833 --> 00:47:52,541

specialized pro-resolving mediators?

:

00:47:53,333 --> 00:47:54,375

What you might call the

:

00:47:54,375 --> 00:47:55,958

active form of an omega-3?

:

00:47:56,375 --> 00:47:57,750

They're obviously a bit more expensive,

:

00:47:57,750 --> 00:47:59,916

but I feel for the right person, they're

:

00:47:59,916 --> 00:48:00,708

definitely worth it.

:

00:48:01,166 --> 00:48:03,791

I love these, and it's something that

:

00:48:03,791 --> 00:48:05,583

I've been exploring myself lately.

:

00:48:05,833 --> 00:48:07,000

I've been trying lately.

:

00:48:08,083 --> 00:48:11,208

I've been seeing incredible benefits from

:

00:48:11,208 --> 00:48:15,000

taking this and taking

:

00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,125

ivermectin, interestingly,

:

00:48:18,875 --> 00:48:21,166

just because I think there's all kinds of

:

00:48:21,166 --> 00:48:22,625

things that can just be lingering.

:

00:48:23,041 --> 00:48:28,291

Parasites, I love to have sushi.

:

00:48:28,750 --> 00:48:30,500

I love to have tartar.

:

00:48:31,041 --> 00:48:33,291

I love these kinds of raw things.

:

00:48:33,833 --> 00:48:34,625

I love the watercolor.

:

00:48:35,166 --> 00:48:37,791

Yes, and I'm getting exposed to things.

:

00:48:38,083 --> 00:48:40,208

I've been playing with both of those

:

00:48:40,208 --> 00:48:44,000

compounds lately, and I've seen in one or

:

00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:45,833

two weeks time my HRV doubled.

:

00:48:46,541 --> 00:48:48,208

I know they're having an impact.

:

00:48:48,791 --> 00:48:51,000

So it's been exciting

:

00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,625

to explore that lately.

:

00:48:54,333 --> 00:48:56,458

I am a big fan of SPMs.

:

00:48:56,791 --> 00:48:57,958

I want to dive into

:

00:48:57,958 --> 00:48:59,291

the research even more.

:

00:49:00,083 --> 00:49:02,500

That hasn't been something that I've

:

00:49:02,500 --> 00:49:04,208

explored deeply enough.

:

00:49:04,208 --> 00:49:06,166

There's been so many compounds I have,

:

00:49:06,166 --> 00:49:09,666

but I wanted to see just off the bat if

:

00:49:09,666 --> 00:49:10,458

it worked for me, and

:

00:49:10,458 --> 00:49:11,250

it definitely worked.

:

00:49:11,666 --> 00:49:13,583

So that is something I will

:

00:49:13,583 --> 00:49:14,958

be exploring more for sure.

:

00:49:15,666 --> 00:49:16,750

Yes, that's fascinating.

:

00:49:17,458 --> 00:49:19,458

Do you have any sort of baselines in

:

00:49:19,458 --> 00:49:21,125

terms of inflammation, perhaps, that

:

00:49:21,125 --> 00:49:23,000

you're going to test against, or are you

:

00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:24,416

just solely using HRV as

:

00:49:24,416 --> 00:49:25,291

a metric at this point?

:

00:49:25,916 --> 00:49:29,666

I didn't start it when I had just done

:

00:49:29,666 --> 00:49:34,208

blood work and looked at CRP, or if I was

:

00:49:34,208 --> 00:49:35,458

in the lab, looking at

:

00:49:35,458 --> 00:49:37,958

IL-6 and these other things.

:

00:49:38,833 --> 00:49:42,500

But certainly, just having the metric

:

00:49:42,500 --> 00:49:45,916

that I can look at day-to-day, HRV, it

:

00:49:45,916 --> 00:49:49,625

seemed dramatic where, again, that and

:

00:49:49,625 --> 00:49:52,333

ivermectin together were quite effective.

:

00:49:53,083 --> 00:49:54,166

Yes, that's awesome.

:

00:49:54,166 --> 00:49:55,250

I suppose for the audience, we should

:

00:49:55,250 --> 00:49:56,541

just clarify that specialized

:

00:49:56,541 --> 00:49:58,375

pro-resolving mediators are basically

:

00:49:58,375 --> 00:50:00,833

metabolite of Amiga-3s, and they include

:

00:50:00,833 --> 00:50:02,791

things like resolvins, protectins,

:

00:50:03,875 --> 00:50:04,875

merrisins, and

:

00:50:04,875 --> 00:50:07,708

lipo-pisins, I think they are.

:

00:50:08,166 --> 00:50:11,375

Anyway, they're converted from, as you

:

00:50:11,375 --> 00:50:13,500

know, shown from EPA and DHA, generally

:

00:50:13,500 --> 00:50:15,250

by things like lox enzymes,

:

00:50:16,875 --> 00:50:19,458

two and five, and maybe some

:

00:50:19,458 --> 00:50:20,458

others I'm not sure offhand.

:

00:50:21,958 --> 00:50:25,083

And generally, they are far more

:

00:50:25,083 --> 00:50:26,541

effectively utilized by the body, because

:

00:50:26,541 --> 00:50:28,541

when someone is in a high sort of state

:

00:50:28,541 --> 00:50:31,416

of inflammation, there is going to be

:

00:50:31,416 --> 00:50:35,333

less of a conversion of these Amiga-3s to

:

00:50:35,333 --> 00:50:37,416

these pro-resolving mediators, these

:

00:50:37,416 --> 00:50:38,333

active forms of the

:

00:50:38,333 --> 00:50:39,583

compound that you would then want.

:

00:50:39,791 --> 00:50:41,916

And then really, this is where the CEDAW

:

00:50:41,916 --> 00:50:43,708

crowd is going to go absolutely nuts,

:

00:50:43,708 --> 00:50:45,583

because you've got a whole bunch of

:

00:50:45,583 --> 00:50:47,958

polyunsaturated fats in a highly

:

00:50:47,958 --> 00:50:49,750

ox-dosen, in a highly inflammatory

:

00:50:49,750 --> 00:50:52,708

environment, causing all sorts of

:

00:50:52,708 --> 00:50:53,916

potentially distressed.

:

00:50:54,375 --> 00:50:56,666

So yeah, I think they're amazing.

:

00:50:56,666 --> 00:50:58,375

And in a nutshell, that's what they are.

:

00:50:59,041 --> 00:51:02,458

And anyway, I know we're

:

00:51:02,458 --> 00:51:05,041

starting to come up on time.

:

00:51:05,916 --> 00:51:07,666

So what I'd love to do is just chat to

:

00:51:07,666 --> 00:51:10,166

you quickly about ergotthionine.

:

00:51:11,500 --> 00:51:12,500

This isn't a compound

:

00:51:12,625 --> 00:51:14,291

I'm that familiar with.

:

00:51:14,708 --> 00:51:16,833

And I know that it's been investigated by

:

00:51:16,833 --> 00:51:18,958

the ITP, the intermittent testing program

:

00:51:18,958 --> 00:51:22,291

from a longevity perspective, and that is

:

00:51:22,291 --> 00:51:23,291

generally found in mushrooms,

:

00:51:23,791 --> 00:51:25,083

and it's called antioxidant.

:

00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,291

Could you sort of break down what this

:

00:51:28,291 --> 00:51:29,875

compound is and why

:

00:51:29,875 --> 00:51:31,750

you're excited about it?

:

00:51:32,500 --> 00:51:35,750

So the the ene part in ergotthionine

:

00:51:35,750 --> 00:51:37,583

means it's an amino acid.

:

00:51:37,583 --> 00:51:38,541

It's a trace amino

:

00:51:38,541 --> 00:51:40,125

acid, as you talked about.

:

00:51:40,125 --> 00:51:41,250

It does occur in

:

00:51:41,250 --> 00:51:42,916

mushrooms to a low degree.

:

00:51:43,750 --> 00:51:46,375

King oysters tend to be the highest in

:

00:51:46,375 --> 00:51:49,875

ergotthionine, but also it occurs in

:

00:51:49,875 --> 00:51:52,416

certain beings and then organ meats.

:

00:51:53,750 --> 00:51:55,916

What we've seen from ergotthionine, Dr.

:

00:51:56,166 --> 00:51:57,791

Bruce Ames, probably the most famous

:

00:51:57,791 --> 00:51:59,958

longevity researcher, Rhonda

:

00:51:59,958 --> 00:52:01,666

Patrick spun out of his lab.

:

00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,166

He looked at alpha lipoic acid and

:

00:52:06,166 --> 00:52:08,041

acetylalkarnitine and some of these

:

00:52:08,041 --> 00:52:10,416

compounds and made them quite popular.

:

00:52:11,666 --> 00:52:14,625

Amazing research on spin traps, which is

:

00:52:14,625 --> 00:52:16,250

I could go down a

:

00:52:16,250 --> 00:52:17,250

massive rabbit hole there.

:

00:52:18,333 --> 00:52:19,833

There's no real spin

:

00:52:19,833 --> 00:52:21,083

traps on the market yet.

:

00:52:22,083 --> 00:52:26,541

But ergotthionine, he called the

:

00:52:26,583 --> 00:52:28,250

longevity molecule or

:

00:52:28,250 --> 00:52:29,750

the longevity vitamin.

:

00:52:30,750 --> 00:52:34,083

It's a vitamin potentially because we

:

00:52:34,083 --> 00:52:37,458

actually see that there's a deficiency

:

00:52:37,458 --> 00:52:38,708

that's shown for it.

:

00:52:38,708 --> 00:52:40,250

You have cognitive decline

:

00:52:40,250 --> 00:52:42,625

without enough ergotthionine.

:

00:52:43,500 --> 00:52:45,666

We don't make ergotthionine.

:

00:52:45,666 --> 00:52:47,541

We have to get it from the diet.

:

00:52:49,041 --> 00:52:50,000

It's essential.

:

00:52:50,375 --> 00:52:54,166

So it's essential and the amount of

:

00:52:54,166 --> 00:52:56,375

research that's going on with

:

00:52:56,375 --> 00:52:59,000

ergotthionine, literally and without

:

00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,000

hyperbole, weekly, we're seeing full

:

00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,625

studies come out on ergotthionine from

:

00:53:04,625 --> 00:53:05,958

some of the best resources.

:

00:53:06,291 --> 00:53:07,916

So it's been very exciting, whether it's

:

00:53:07,916 --> 00:53:11,166

from the diet or from supplemental forms,

:

00:53:11,291 --> 00:53:13,333

and then the doses range quite a bit.

:

00:53:14,333 --> 00:53:17,500

But when we look at cultures that consume

:

00:53:17,500 --> 00:53:21,791

ergotthionine across the globe, there is

:

00:53:21,791 --> 00:53:25,416

a straight line correlation to longevity

:

00:53:25,416 --> 00:53:29,916

and lifespan and even health span to

:

00:53:29,916 --> 00:53:31,375

ergotthionine consumption.

:

00:53:32,375 --> 00:53:33,750

This is incredible.

:

00:53:34,041 --> 00:53:35,791

There's about a seven year difference

:

00:53:36,333 --> 00:53:38,791

between the lowest consumers and the

:

00:53:38,791 --> 00:53:40,750

highest consumers of ergotthionine.

:

00:53:41,083 --> 00:53:43,041

So this one's very impactful.

:

00:53:43,041 --> 00:53:45,041

This is just not like a cellular

:

00:53:45,041 --> 00:53:46,625

antioxidant, which we know

:

00:53:46,625 --> 00:53:48,250

data is fairly equilical on.

:

00:53:48,583 --> 00:53:51,833

This is a mitochondrial antioxidant,

:

00:53:51,833 --> 00:53:53,291

which is wholly different.

:

00:53:54,291 --> 00:53:56,000

We also see that it has a unique

:

00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:57,500

transporter that it's

:

00:53:57,500 --> 00:53:59,791

using in the body, the OCTN1,

:

00:54:01,041 --> 00:54:02,458

and then also a unique

:

00:54:02,458 --> 00:54:04,625

storage system for it in the body.

:

00:54:04,625 --> 00:54:07,583

So you are evolved to use this unique

:

00:54:07,583 --> 00:54:10,625

nutrient that is quite profound.

:

00:54:12,208 --> 00:54:14,333

So this is really exciting, especially

:

00:54:14,333 --> 00:54:16,000

for those of us that have battled

:

00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,833

mitochondrial dysfunction, which at this

:

00:54:18,833 --> 00:54:22,500

point in the US, metabolic

:

00:54:22,500 --> 00:54:25,500

dysfunctionality, which I would argue is

:

00:54:25,500 --> 00:54:28,416

fairly equivalent to mitochondrial

:

00:54:28,416 --> 00:54:33,416

dysfunction, is around 93%.

:

00:54:35,291 --> 00:54:37,125

Only 7% of the population

:

00:54:37,125 --> 00:54:39,625

is functioning optimally.

:

00:54:42,250 --> 00:54:45,083

And that said, this is also, I would

:

00:54:45,083 --> 00:54:46,583

argue, an essential nutrients.

:

00:54:47,166 --> 00:54:48,750

And I think we'll see that happen over

:

00:54:48,750 --> 00:54:51,875

the next 10 years that it will be called

:

00:54:51,875 --> 00:54:53,458

that and be putting multivitamins.

:

00:54:54,333 --> 00:54:56,625

This is one of those ones like creatine

:

00:54:56,625 --> 00:54:58,625

that you need to jump on

:

00:54:58,625 --> 00:55:00,875

for cellular energy ASAP.

:

00:55:01,708 --> 00:55:04,041

So ergotthionine, I think, should be

:

00:55:04,041 --> 00:55:07,791

foundational for everyone that is

:

00:55:07,791 --> 00:55:09,250

listening to this or watching this.

:

00:55:10,208 --> 00:55:11,375

Yeah, no, it's definitely

:

00:55:11,375 --> 00:55:12,333

an interesting compound.

:

00:55:12,916 --> 00:55:14,416

Do you have any feeling

:

00:55:14,416 --> 00:55:15,458

for the mechanism there?

:

00:55:15,666 --> 00:55:17,333

Is there sort of any part one activation

:

00:55:17,333 --> 00:55:19,166

or NRF2 activation going on?

:

00:55:20,375 --> 00:55:21,375

That's a great question.

:

00:55:22,125 --> 00:55:23,375

The data really isn't...

:

00:55:24,583 --> 00:55:26,125

We are definitely seeing

:

00:55:26,125 --> 00:55:27,583

it affect those pathways.

:

00:55:28,458 --> 00:55:29,375

How exactly it's

:

00:55:29,375 --> 00:55:31,416

affecting it is not clear yet.

:

00:55:31,416 --> 00:55:33,166

There needs to be even more research.

:

00:55:34,166 --> 00:55:37,208

But we do know that, as I stated, that

:

00:55:37,208 --> 00:55:39,500

we're evolved to use it and it is

:

00:55:39,500 --> 00:55:41,291

protecting the mitochondria.

:

00:55:43,416 --> 00:55:45,791

And what I see is that when I was taking

:

00:55:45,791 --> 00:55:48,375

it, these lower doses that were typical

:

00:55:48,375 --> 00:55:51,625

of diets, like taking one milligram, five

:

00:55:51,625 --> 00:55:53,625

milligrams, potentially 10 milligrams,

:

00:55:53,625 --> 00:55:55,500

which would be very high side of the

:

00:55:55,500 --> 00:55:57,166

highest diet consumers,

:

00:55:58,375 --> 00:56:00,666

I seem to get a positive effect.

:

00:56:01,041 --> 00:56:02,041

But I think it's more

:

00:56:02,083 --> 00:56:03,458

like a long-term effect.

:

00:56:04,458 --> 00:56:05,500

But much like creatine,

:

00:56:07,375 --> 00:56:09,333

if you kind of go with this loading

:

00:56:09,333 --> 00:56:11,416

aspect where I was taking

:

00:56:11,416 --> 00:56:14,125

25, 50, even 100 milligrams,

:

00:56:15,458 --> 00:56:18,916

it then became experiential where I was

:

00:56:18,916 --> 00:56:22,375

actually feeling a sense of more energy.

:

00:56:22,375 --> 00:56:24,625

And when I travel, especially across time

:

00:56:24,625 --> 00:56:27,583

zones, circadian rhythm can be impaired.

:

00:56:28,291 --> 00:56:30,583

I was noticing that I wasn't having the

:

00:56:30,583 --> 00:56:34,625

difficulty shifting my circadian rhythm

:

00:56:34,958 --> 00:56:36,208

and cellular energy.

:

00:56:37,333 --> 00:56:41,291

So this is one that I am excited about.

:

00:56:41,625 --> 00:56:42,458

And quite frankly,

:

00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,250

we've been playing with mixing it with

:

00:56:46,250 --> 00:56:47,250

that solidaricide

:

00:56:47,250 --> 00:56:48,833

that I was talking about.

:

00:56:48,833 --> 00:56:51,083

And so high dose solidaricide and high

:

00:56:51,083 --> 00:56:55,500

dose ergothione from me is truly like,

:

00:56:55,875 --> 00:56:56,833

you feel it, it's

:

00:56:56,833 --> 00:56:58,000

just truly experiential.

:

00:56:58,916 --> 00:56:59,500

Yeah, I'm going to put it

:

00:56:59,500 --> 00:57:00,875

into position at the Wells Lab.

:

00:57:00,875 --> 00:57:01,666

It sounds like you guys

:

00:57:01,666 --> 00:57:02,541

have a lot of fun there.

:

00:57:03,416 --> 00:57:06,458

It sounds like you're having a ball.

:

00:57:07,125 --> 00:57:09,833

No, it's a fascinating compound,

:

00:57:09,833 --> 00:57:11,000

something I've kind of

:

00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:12,000

got to brush up on a bit.

:

00:57:12,916 --> 00:57:15,833

I know I interviewed Dr.

:

00:57:16,083 --> 00:57:19,000

Greg Potrowar back on the podcast who is

:

00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:20,541

also very interested in it.

:

00:57:20,916 --> 00:57:21,750

And our project is

:

00:57:21,750 --> 00:57:23,166

Pickers Brain About It as well.

:

00:57:24,708 --> 00:57:25,708

Sean, you've been amazing.

:

00:57:26,291 --> 00:57:27,708

Before I let you go, though, would it be

:

00:57:27,708 --> 00:57:29,083

okay if we just run through

:

00:57:29,083 --> 00:57:31,500

a few rapid fire questions?

:

00:57:32,166 --> 00:57:32,916

Sure, let's do it.

:

00:57:33,375 --> 00:57:33,625

Brilliant.

:

00:57:33,875 --> 00:57:34,458

Thank you so much.

:

00:57:34,875 --> 00:57:35,583

What's the weirdest

:

00:57:35,583 --> 00:57:37,000

supplement combo you've ever tried?

:

00:57:37,041 --> 00:57:45,750

Butyrate plus anything.

:

00:57:46,416 --> 00:57:48,333

When I first started working with

:

00:57:48,333 --> 00:57:49,791

butyrate before we learned how to

:

00:57:49,791 --> 00:57:51,750

microencapsulate it before we put it into

:

00:57:51,750 --> 00:57:52,916

a triglyceride form,

:

00:57:54,208 --> 00:57:56,583

butyrate, which is a powerful short-chain

:

00:57:56,583 --> 00:58:00,791

fatty acid, is what smells like puke from

:

00:58:00,791 --> 00:58:04,375

your stomach or rancid milk or butter.

:

00:58:05,125 --> 00:58:08,000

So butyrate plus anything when I was

:

00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:10,708

starting to work with it was awful.

:

00:58:11,375 --> 00:58:11,625

Fair enough.

:

00:58:12,166 --> 00:58:13,791

If you could only take one supplement for

:

00:58:13,791 --> 00:58:14,958

the rest of your life, what would it be?

:

00:58:15,833 --> 00:58:16,333

Oh, boy.

:

00:58:18,166 --> 00:58:22,166

And this is a tie between dihydroberine,

:

00:58:22,166 --> 00:58:23,958

ergothionine, and solidricide.

:

00:58:24,958 --> 00:58:28,583

I would probably say ergothionine.

:

00:58:28,916 --> 00:58:29,291

It's fine.

:

00:58:29,291 --> 00:58:29,791

We can stick them

:

00:58:29,791 --> 00:58:30,750

into one kind of domain.

:

00:58:31,500 --> 00:58:31,708

Cool.

:

00:58:32,416 --> 00:58:33,083

What's the one health

:

00:58:33,083 --> 00:58:34,666

trend you think is total hype?

:

00:58:35,958 --> 00:58:37,083

Like total BS?

:

00:58:37,083 --> 00:58:37,666

Is that what you're saying?

:

00:58:37,958 --> 00:58:38,791

Yeah, pretty much.

:

00:58:38,791 --> 00:58:41,083

What's overrated currently anyway?

:

00:58:42,291 --> 00:58:43,166

Quantum anything.

:

00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:44,916

I just feel like any

:

00:58:44,916 --> 00:58:46,375

time I see the word quantum,

:

00:58:47,375 --> 00:58:49,541

I just know like this is just an

:

00:58:49,541 --> 00:58:53,291

unmeasurable, complete BS.

:

00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:55,750

Yeah, no, I'd have to

:

00:58:55,750 --> 00:58:56,625

agree with you there.

:

00:58:56,625 --> 00:58:59,000

I want to believe that there's something

:

00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,375

there, but yeah, when somebody says they

:

00:59:01,375 --> 00:59:03,583

can make you feel better by activating a

:

00:59:03,583 --> 00:59:05,916

program that then has some sort of effect

:

00:59:05,916 --> 00:59:08,166

in your house 10,000 kilometers away or

:

00:59:08,166 --> 00:59:10,208

miles away, it seems a bit far fetched.

:

00:59:11,958 --> 00:59:12,125

Cool.

:

00:59:13,083 --> 00:59:15,500

What's the next big supplement ingredient

:

00:59:15,500 --> 00:59:17,416

we'll all be talking about in:

:

00:59:18,541 --> 00:59:21,333

Dilucine, an ingredient I worked on that

:

00:59:21,333 --> 00:59:23,833

radically increases muscle protein

:

00:59:23,833 --> 00:59:24,958

synthesis over its

:

00:59:24,958 --> 00:59:27,250

standard counterpart, leucine.

:

00:59:27,666 --> 00:59:29,375

You have no clue how long I've been

:

00:59:29,375 --> 00:59:30,333

trying to get hold of that.

:

00:59:31,416 --> 00:59:35,500

It is a game changer for muscle

:

00:59:35,500 --> 00:59:37,250

maintenance of muscle, repair

:

00:59:37,250 --> 00:59:39,166

of muscle, increased strength.

:

00:59:40,375 --> 00:59:42,916

When we look at longevity and health

:

00:59:42,916 --> 00:59:46,791

span, we see grip strength, we see muscle

:

00:59:46,791 --> 00:59:50,458

mass as a result, increased bone mass,

:

00:59:50,458 --> 00:59:53,541

all these kinds of things impacted by the

:

00:59:53,541 --> 00:59:57,750

way we can keep muscle protein synthesis

:

00:59:57,750 --> 00:59:59,583

and muscle protein breakdown

:

01:00:00,791 --> 01:00:01,458

optimized.

:

01:00:03,250 --> 01:00:06,291

Sean, that was a perfect answer in a

:

01:00:06,291 --> 01:00:07,500

little crawl because now I want to talk

:

01:00:07,500 --> 01:00:08,041

about the insulin

:

01:00:08,041 --> 01:00:09,500

genetic properties of dilucine.

:

01:00:09,500 --> 01:00:11,833

However, I know you've got

:

01:00:11,833 --> 01:00:15,000

to run, so thank you so much.

:

01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:16,125

You've been an absolute star.

:

01:00:17,166 --> 01:00:18,958

Where can people find you if they want to

:

01:00:18,958 --> 01:00:20,208

learn more about you connect with what

:

01:00:20,208 --> 01:00:21,583

you do and all that good stuff?

:

01:00:22,208 --> 01:00:23,750

Yeah, so at seanwells,

:

01:00:23,750 --> 01:00:28,666

s-h-a-w-n-w-e-l-l-s, s-h-a-w-n, so at

:

01:00:28,666 --> 01:00:33,041

seanwells or seanwells.com, there's a

:

01:00:33,041 --> 01:00:35,416

free newsletter that I go over studies

:

01:00:35,666 --> 01:00:38,041

and trends and supplement statics.

:

01:00:38,583 --> 01:00:40,041

My Instagram is great,

:

01:00:40,041 --> 01:00:42,416

infographics and free content.

:

01:00:42,416 --> 01:00:45,666

Everything's free with me unless you hire

:

01:00:45,666 --> 01:00:47,375

me to formulate supplements, so

:

01:00:47,375 --> 01:00:49,000

everything I give away for free.

:

01:00:49,208 --> 01:00:51,666

The book is reasonably cheap and we're

:

01:00:51,666 --> 01:00:56,458

coming out with a wet chorus for the

:

01:00:56,458 --> 01:00:58,250

energy formula as well that I'm really

:

01:00:58,250 --> 01:00:59,750

excited about later this month.

:

01:01:00,541 --> 01:01:02,791

That's awesome and we'll be sure to link

:

01:01:02,791 --> 01:01:04,000

all of that in the show notes.

:

01:01:04,708 --> 01:01:05,500

Sean, you've been a treasure.

:

01:01:05,791 --> 01:01:06,750

Thank you so much for your time.

:

01:01:07,500 --> 01:01:07,833

Thank you.

:

01:01:08,041 --> 01:01:08,541

See you.

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