Paying with a card has become incredibly easy and safe, but for the 43 million people worldwide who are blind, that's not the case.

Not only are blind and visually impaired people unable to see the payment terminal when making a transaction, they also have no way of confirming whether the amount they're paying is accurate. Blind notches, braille and contrasting colors are all tools integrated in financial services to make them more inclusive. But our guest today, Frederic Martinez, believes banks can do more.

His team developed a talking payment card, in collaboration with partners, and he joins us to explain how it works and the reception it's had so far.

In the episode, we discuss:  

• What prompted the development of the voice payment card and the technology behind it
• The challenges banks may face in offering it more widely
• Other potential use cases for the voice payment card
• Biometric cards: another exciting inclusive financial solution

If you liked this episode, please share with someone who you think would enjoy it and don't forget to leave a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You can also share feedback here.

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About Frederic Martinez: 

Frederic Martinez is driving the offer strategy for biometric cards and innovative payment solutions at Thales. With a passion for new technologies, Frederic is committed to helping banks bring better payment experiences to consumers and introduce new disruptive services.

Learn more about Thales Banking & Payments

Website: https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/markets/digital-identity-and-security/banking-payment

Follow Frederic Martinez on LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/fmartinez2

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FM 0:00

90% of people with visual impairments say that they've been victim at least once of fraud or mistake, it can be non intentional, but there could be a mistake in the amount. And they only realized the mistake a few days after, so it's too late. And it was the starting point.

TS 0:16

Welcome to Made For Us, a podcast about the intersection of innovation and inclusion. It's for anyone who's curious about how to develop products that work better for all of us. I'm your host, Tosin Sulaiman. In today's episode, I'll be exploring an innovation that could transform the banking experience for many people with disabilities, a credit card that speaks. The voice payment card developed by the French company, Thales, and the fintech startup HandSome, was designed to give more autonomy to people who are blind or visually impaired. Frederick Martinez, who leads biometric and advanced payment marketing at Thales joins me to explain how the technology works and how it's being commercialized. We also discuss some of the lessons Thales has learned from developing the product, and the feedback they received from early users. Here's our conversation.

FM 1:12

So I'm Frederic Martinez. I'm a product line the marketing manager in Thales, in charge of innovative payment card solution. And so my company, Thales, it's a global leader in terms of digital security and identity. But not only we, in fact, we serve companies, organizations, and governments to carry out their critical missions in the field of defense and security, cyber security, identity.

TS 1:42

Okay, great. Thank you. I understand that Thales is the world's biggest supplier of payment cards.

FM 1:49

Yeah, that's true. In fact, in the past the payment card and the chip card was invented some decades ago. The name was not Thales at that time, it was a company that started in the 80s. But now we are part of Thales, which is a large organization and we are indeed the leader worldwide in terms of payment cards, but also with SIM cards and all the smart cards you can find in different devices, ensuring the security and the connectivity of your devices.

TS 2:15

Can you give a brief overview of who your clients are, and the kinds of solutions that you provide for them?

FM 2:22

Sure. So on my side, I'm in a part of our organization called banking and payment services. So our customers are many banks, and financial institutions. And my job is to work with the team to propose new kinds of payment cards. So enabling more functionalities more, more security, but also more convenience to users. And so we try to be to be innovative. You know, it's not always easy, because the banking card is very thin. It's an object, which is standardized in terms of thickness, dimensions. But we are managing to since a few years, to introduce some features like the biometric sensor. So in the future, we will see more and more insurers proposing a biometric card, for instance, I don't know if you heard about that. It's a payment card with a fingerprint sensor. So you can pay, instead of typing a secret code or signing a bill, you will just put your fingerprint, your finger on the on the card sensor, and the card will make sure that you are the right cardholder before validating the payment. So that's an example of innovation, which is very convenient, as well as secure because the user can be the top of the card and have a transaction which is fully trusted by all parties. But we also trying to find solution to all people, adding more to the mean in daily payment experiences, and trying to find more inclusive solutions that we are defining.

TS 3:54

And so the voice payment card is an example of this. So can you talk a little bit about how the idea for the voice card came about and the problem that it's solving.

FM 4:04

That's an interesting story, because it was in Twenty Nineteen. So already four years ago, we discussed with with a bank with some people at the bank. And they were highlighting the fact that many banking services are not accessible to all people. And especially for blind people or visually impaired people, there is a major problem is when they pay, they cannot read the POS screen. So the screen of the payment terminal, and the need to trust the merchant because unless they always somebody they can trust that can confirm the amount if they're alone, they need to trust the merchant. And in fact, 90% of people with visual impairment say that they've been victim at least once of fraud or mistake. It can be non intentional, but there could be a mistake in the amount and they only realized the mistake a few days after. So, it's too late and it was the starting point. So we were trying together to find a solution to that problem, and in fact, those people who contacted us have created their own FinTech trying to find solution for inclusivity. This company is called HandSome. So that's a strong partner of Thales on this topic since the beginning. And we have defined account that will communicate with your smartphone, so that you can hear the amount and all the steps of the payment transactions, because the cards discusses with the the payment terminal and the card can see all the different steps. So here, the idea is to track the card connected with a Bluetooth connection with your smartphone. So that's why we, I was mentioning that the fight, we can put more electrical components in the fitness of a card. In that case, we have a Bluetooth low energy component, and a Bluetooth antenna in the card. So this, this connection allows the smartphone to receive all the different steps, and to use the phone speaker or to use a headset if the user wants to be more discreet, to vocalize the different steps.

TS 6:05

So, essentially, if I was going to pay, all I need is a card and a smartphone. So once I have this voice card, it will actually read out the amount of the payment to me, and I can confirm it just by listening on my smartphone.

FM 6:23

Exactly. So what you need to do. The first time you receive this card, you need to associate your phone with this card. So it's very easy. You have a dedicated app on your phone or can be integrated directly into in the bank app. And the app will ask you to present your card over the phone. So it's NFC contact, we we designed the solution to be very simple. So no need to to enter a code or whatever on the smartphone because it could be difficult for blind people. So they just need to take their card, put the card above the screen of the phone. And they will be this NFC contact between the phone and the card with a key exchange. In fact, the card is sending a private key to the phone. And now the app of the phone can only work with the card and vice versa. And when it's done. So it's done once for all, it's very short. Every time you would go to a merchant, you just insert the card in the payment terminal, the card will take the energy from the POS, that's important as well to mention that there is no battery in the card. So eco-friendly, the card, every time it's inserted in the payment terminal, it's getting the energy directly from the payment terminal. And it's using this energy to activate the Bluetooth connection, send the information to the phone, so your phone will speak to you. And we say for example, the amount is 50 pounds. For instance, if you agree, you just need to type your PIN code, or to sign depends on which country you are. Otherwise, you just removed the card from the payment terminal and you don't accept the transaction. And you can say to the merchant, sorry, but there's probably a mistake, that was not the amount I was expecting. And the merchant okay, sorry, I can correct that. And you start again. And if it's fine, you type your PIN code. And then you hear again, the validation of the PIN code, the confirmation of the payment, and the amount is repeated again, you can really avoid any kind of fraud or mistakes. You can leave the shop with total peace of mind because you know that you've paid the right price.

TS 8:38

Right. And just to clarify, did you say that it also reads out your PIN number as well to confirm.

FM 8:45

Yeah, so the of course, the pin is not vocalized, it's just the result of the pin. So let's take an example the user is making a mistake, he or she will hear that the pin is incorrect. For example, there are two tries remaining. And then they can be careful and the next time they enter the PIN code.

TS 9:03

So you said this product is targeted at people who are blind or visually impaired? Can you give a sense of the size of the population that could benefit from this?

FM 9:14

Yeah, well, in fact, that that's the primary target, of course. And actually, we've done surveys, with blind people and visually impaired people. And one of the feedback is first, they really liked the solution. But they say that they don't want to be labeled as blind people by their bank. They prefer the product to be available to a large part of the of the users of the bank and not something even if it's something that created at them, not something dedicated to him, to them in terms of communication with the bank. In French, we say they don't want to be stigmatized. I don't know if it's the same one in English.

TS 9:53

Yeah, it's the same English, yeah.

FM 9:55

So and that's totally understood by the banks and you know the bank banks that are planning to launch these products also want to address senior people and that sometime can have a problem of sight. But also, they want to be reassured when they do, when they make payments. For example, they can also keep a history in their smartphone of the payments they've done. So thanks for the connection with card. Also people with intellectual disabilities, where people, in fact will understand better if they hear something rather than they read something. Also, wheelchair users, sometimes the screen is too high for them to read the screen so they can read directly on their smartphone, or they can hear the the amount. And to answer to your first question. In fact, you need to know that people with some form of disabilities represent around 16% of the world population. So that's quite a large number of people. And among these disabilities, blindness, or visual impairment is the is around 60% of all the disabilities. So yeah, around 9% of the population suffers from visual impairment or difficulties to read.

And over the years, I understand that there have been a number of innovations aimed at improving accessibility and banking and payments, for example, notches on cards, Braille, larger fonts. I'm interested in your take on the banking sectors record on inclusivity and accessibility.

Yeah, there is a number of initiatives, which is good, because banks are now fully conscious that they need to do more on on the subject. But yeah, as I say, they can always do more. And even in Thales, that's something we we take seriously, we want to really improve our offer on solution. And there is not one single solution. So as you as you say, Braille is, is a solution. So you could have a braille corrector in your card that you can feel, in order to differentiate your different cards. There's also something that is called a blind notch. So it on the side of the card, there is a small notch that people can, can feel when they take the accounts and they they can make sure that they use the right card. For people who are not totally blind, we can also work with banks on the specific visuals, you know, with some specific colors, so not complex card artworks, but simple artworks with too many colors so that people can can distinguish the cards between the other cards. And in fact, when we discuss with association or our users, ideally, they would like combination of all these features. So that's something we we want to make sure that, for example, the voice card is compatible with, with braille factors, with the blind notch so that they can have all the benefits of all these different approaches together.

How long is that voice card been in development? I think you said it started in Twenty Nineteen, your discussions with HandSome? So could you talk us through the design process? What you learned from speaking to customers?

Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's a complex product. So it took some time to develop it is going through different steps. So we started in Twenty Nineteen, to define what could be the target solution. So Bluetooth is what selected but we had other ideas, but this one was really the one that seemed at that time, the best solution for that. And that's the case today, we can see that it's a good choice, because it's working with really any kind of phone, so iPhones, Android phones. And there is no impact on the payment terminal. So no need for the merchant to dictate terminals, that's a solution that can be used right away by users. And as soon as we had this first full concept, we've been testing it with associations and people, blind people to see their, their opinion their reaction. And, and this was really emotional and really moving for us because they had such a, we could feel the happiness when they realized that the solution was going to help them in their everyday life to to have more autonomy, more, more security when they do payments. So they were very happy about that. And this has been really extra motivation for us for engineers to keep on developing this product. We knew that we were on the right track. And then the the next steps were to to make the actual final product. So I have something very miniaturized in size and thickness of the card. And then so this all took two years. And so once we had the final product we've been doing some some pilots with banks to make sure that the product was working on the field, we also had very interesting discussions with Visa and MasterCard, we were, they were totally supportive of the solution. And they've put in place a specific certification process for this product, we know that every banking card needs to go through a strict certification process by Visa, MasterCard, or any payment scheme to make sure that the product is you can trust it, there's no security issue or whatever. So they've been very collaborative on that. And now, the good news is that this product has been certified. So it's fully available now with Visa and MasterCard brands. We also have some discussion with some of the schemes like CB in France, you know, it's a national scheme and other schemes that may be interested for the markets, but any Visa and MasterCard insurer can can deploy this product. And the pilots we have done, has been very successful as well. So the card is working well. On the different payment terminals, that the customer are really happy.

So you said you tried it with a number of banks in different countries. So where is the card currently available? Who can currently access it?

Yeah, I cannot disclose everything, because not everything is public. But what I can say, because it's been announced by the bank, the bank themselves. One is in Turkey, a bank called Papara. So for people living in Turkey, it's possible to to ask for this card already. We have some pilots in France, and one of the banks, Credit Agricole have launched the product already one of their regions. In Brazil, a very big bank is also testing the product with success and they plan to to launch it on the market very soon. That's it, for the name I can disclose but we have many other discussions. But we we don't have the authorization to mention them.

Can you mention the countries, besides Turkey, Brazil, France?

Let's say many in Europe, many countries in Europe are really interested in this product, then Latin America. And yeah, we're starting to have discussion in other continents, but it's not at the cemetery.

So in order for people to be able to access it, it has to be available in their country, and it has to be offered by their bank, essentially.

Yeah, because you know, banking card is even if you have it in your wallet, on your pocket, it is still the property of a bank. So they need to issue the card. And yeah, if no bank in your country is proposing this card, you can maybe mention it to your bank. And hopefully they will, they will look into this product and launch it if they are interested.

So, you said that you're receiving a lot of interest, are there certain challenges for banks in rolling this out and making it more widely available?

The main problem that banks have today is they don't know who among their customers are blind or have some kind of visual impairment, because that's confidential information. You know, there are more and more regulation about privacy. They might ask people to declare if they are visually impaired or have some kind of disability. It needs to be something accepted by the user itself, themselves. So they can decide if they want to share this information. But if the bank, our goal to propose these kind of services, I'm sure they would get more feedback from users. Because if a user sees something that can really help in their everyday life, there is no reason why they at least will not declare I might be interested in the product, then they will see. Today, That's the something that banks need to build in total trust with their users so that they can get to know more about the user and propose the best services to them.

Right, I see. So you mentioned that the feedback that you got from some of the blind and visually impaired users was that they didn't want something that was just for blind people. They wanted something that's available to everyone. Or the bank's not looking at it that way. Are they thinking of only rolling it out for this specific segment?

It depends on on the banks. We have some banks that really want to make it available to too many people. So not only blind people, but they think that there is a value for many users. Also, because it's a cool thing. You can have your phone speaking to you, they also plan to develop the concept. So not only vocalizing but since you have to see interaction with a card. You can imagine many cool stuff. One example, not deployed yet, but we are in discussion with some insurers could be if you travel abroad, and in a country where the currency is different, and you don't necessarily understand the language, some time is hard when you pay. You need to do yourself, the conversion. You don't really understand what is written on the POS. So the app could really do that for you. So the card will send the information and the app will do a live conversion to your home currency and to your own language. And that could be very valuable for travels. That's one example. But we can see with banks that we can find many use cases around around this technology, that will make it more interesting for for different kinds of population.

Just a couple of things I wanted to clarify about the features, does it work with both Chip and PIN and contactless cards?

So, yes and no. So that the card is what we call dual interface. So the card can walk with a chip and PIN and contactless. But you will only get the vocalization when you insert the card. Because in fact, in contactless, the timing is very short. And there is no enough time to to discuss with the mobile, vocalize the amount and then ask for user authorization. That's not an issue in the sense of people interested in the solution want to take their time, they want to insert the card, have their hands free to listen and then tap the PIN code if they agree. But in any case, if if they want to make a first payment, they trust their merchants, they can use the card in contactless if they want.

Okay, and is it physical cards only? Or could it potentially work with digital cards as well?

It's a physical card combined with a mobile application. Now, we often get the question, could I have this functionality via mobile payments? That will require some development, because you are in contactless mode only with a mobile phone. And you will need to kind of double tap. So one, two, to get the the amounts and hear it and then a second tap to validate the payments. That's not impossible. But that might not work as well on the field, because not all the payment terminal could accept this type of tap.

And could you give a brief overview of the security features because I know that that's a an important aspect of this and you know, instilling confidence in people who are using this card.

So first of all, the card is not at all compromising the security of the payment transaction. it's on top of that, so you will keep the same transaction security level than any payment card, which is the highest today. Visa and MasterCard, they are defining payment application that have never been hacked in full history. So always maintaining state of art security requirements for the payment cards. So the voice card feature is on top of that, we want you to add some extra security because the card is broadcasting some Bluetooth information. This information, even if it's not sensitive, it's encrypted by the card. And I was saying that when you do the first insertion, between the card and the phone, there is a key change between the card and the phone. So only your phone will have the key to decipher the information sent by the by the card, so even if somebody has downloaded the voice card application or the banking application and try to get the Bluetooth signal, the phone won't be able to decipher it. So only your phone will vocalize. Again, there is no particular security issue. It's more a question of convenience, and you don't want to everybody in the same room with you have the information vocalized, so only your phone will be able to do it.

Right? That's really interesting. So looking ahead to the future, do you see a day when the voice card could eventually become standard and all cards have this feature?

The benefit of this card is it keeps all the advantages of the ISO payment cards - ISO is the name of the standard. The same security, all the same options that the bank can offer in a card are possible in this card. So it's just something on top of that. The only thing is that because of the extra electronics in the card, the price is a bit higher. So it's really a question of strategy for the bank. Do they want to invest in a bit more expensive product? Or do they want to propose it as an option or to only a certain population among their users?

Right. And can you give a sense of how much more expensive is it compared to non voice card?

So I cannot enter into details. So we sell any kind of payment cards to banks depending on their needs. This one has a higher price because of the extra complexity and the extra cost in terms of components. And then so but that's the price that the bank is paying then the strategy of the bank with their final users it's really a tough choice. So some banks may decide to to offer it for free, let's say to their users, some others as an option. I cannot comment on that. So it's up to them to see how they want you to sponsor it or not.

No, I understand. I was just curious in the differential. So is it like, is it twice the amount of a non voice card? Is it you know, 50% more expensive that I was just wondering, wondering what the..

I cannot say exactly, but it's much more than twice, because still expensive components. And also, it's low volumes. And for sure, if tomorrow, more and more banks deploy this product, the volume of cards produced will be higher, and then we can decrease the cost. So we hope that there will be a big impact everywhere and for sure, we will be able to to be much more aggressive in terms of pricing for this product.

So how do you see the voice card evolving? Is it something that could potentially work with wearable devices? Smartwatches, for example, in the future?

Yeah, well, at Thales, we have also an offer for wearables. So that's something we could combine. But again, we are back to the point of devices that work only in contactless mode. So wearables cannot be inserted. So we will need to first fix this issue of contactless vocalization, which is not of use at the moment. That's why it's easier when are you insert the card, of course. But depending on the demand and on the on the progress we can do on this topic, that might be a possibility for the future.

And you talked about how the feedback that you got from users has really motivated the engineers working on this product. I was just curious, you know, what impact would you say this initiative has had internally at the company, for example, how you approach R&D on the culture,

I think it has really different outcomes. First one, as I said, was an extra motivation from the engineers, because it's not every day that you develop, you define a new product that really has this social dimension. And there was this feeling of bringing some some real value to users, some time is when you bring more convenience, it's fine or more, let's say a nice effect. It's okay, and people are happy. But here, you are really changing the life of people, because today it is difficult for, for blind people to go alone in the shop and trust what they will pay. So here they, they this can really change a life and that was a very good motivation for us internally. And the second outcome, I think, was really to, to accelerate this. This willingness to to propose more inclusive solutions. So we that's one example. But we are really trying to find solutions. So not only for visually impaired people, but any kind of user with some impairments or who are not.. I mean, the accessibility topic is is a real one. And many banking services or payment services are not adapted to everyone. So we are really trying to find solutions, in cooperation with banks, in cooperation with associations and users, so that we identify altogether, what could be the products of tomorrow, and bringing this social dimension to products. And not only making innovation just for innovation, but for something useful for people.

Yeah, I think that's fascinating. Are there any products that have started being developed? Or is this sort of still in the ideas phase.

There is one that also is raising a lot of interest, it's the biometric card. You know, with this fingerprint sensor. There is another issue that people are facing today, and more and more, unfortunately, is that the fact that when they need to enter the PIN code, on a traditional payment terminal, that's fine, because you have, you can feel the different numbers. So people can type their PIN code without mistake. But there is more and more tactile screens. So mobile payment terminal, which is a flat screen. That's what we call PIN on glass. So it's impossible, nearly impossible for them to enter a PIN code because they don't know where the numbers are located. And here, the biometric card is is also good solution, what you need to do is just to put your finger on the sensor instead of typing your PIN code. And then you can validate with no mistake Without disclosing the PIN code, you can validate any payments. That's one other example. But we are trying to find other useful solutions.

So just to wrap up, if you were to advise other companies that want to develop inclusive products, what are the key learnings from the voice card that you'd want to share with them?

Yeah, well, I really encourage any company to look at these aspects because it's very important. And it's not something I will say that the company necessarily look at the first place our number one priority, but it is important. And also it's important to to, to get close to users to associations if they can, to co-develop, or to brainstorm with the different parties. So that's the best way to find the ideal solution because you can think on your side that you have a perfect solution. But when you test it with users on the field, it may not work as planned. So it's always better to, to at every step of the development to test it with users, and also to get their views because you might spend all year on solving one problem. But in fact, it's not the main problem of people. And you need to be conscious what really matters in their lives. We get all the more and we hope that all these little steps help the society to move to a more accessible world for everyone.

That was Frederic Martinez of Thales. You can find more details on the voice payment card in the show notes. If you learned something new in this episode, please do share it with someone who would enjoy it. And I'd be grateful if you could rate the podcast on Apple, Spotify or wherever you're listening. I'm Tosin Sulaiman. Thanks for joining me on Made For Us.

Transcribed with the help of https://otter.ai