Shownotes
Across worlds - guest Natalie Chan
Jenn wilson
"If everybody receives a little more care, maybe we’ll all have energy left to fight the bigger battles." — Natalie Chan
Jenn Wilson is joined by guest Natalie Chan
Natalie Chan is an arts producer and cultural leader passionate about care-led, human-centered practices that make the arts more equitable and accessible.
Episode Overview
In this episode of Irregular Humans, Jenn Wilson talks with Natalie Chan about navigating a non-linear career in the arts, breaking down bureaucratic barriers, and creating care-led cultures. Natalie shares her journey from redundancy to impactful roles in local government and commercial theatre, her strategies for equitable funding, and her vision for a more human-centered arts ecosystem.
Join Our Mailing List HERE
Subscribe for bonus content HERE
Connect with Natalie Chan
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalienataliechan/
Instagram: Natalie Chan💃 (@natnatnataliechan)
About Natalie Chan:
Natalie is an award-winning arts manager and fundraiser. Currently, she works as Arts and Culture Project Commissioner for Luton Borough Council and as Production Coordinator for Jonathan Church Theatre Productions with a focus on productions touring to Asia.
She was part of the Bradford Producing Hub’s Empowered Programme with Jenn when she temporarily moved up North for a maternity cover role at Derby Theatre (which is not actually that close, but as tenacious artist and producers do - we make the most of opportunities).
Episode Takeaway
Small changes matter. Whether it’s removing barriers for artists or paying freelancers on time, care-led practices create ripple effects that transform systems and empower people.
Further Resources: links to offers from Irregular that are relevant to the episode
More about this episode:
Natalie’s Irregular Path: From Hong Kong to the UK and a squiggly career in the arts.
Turning Challenges into Opportunities: How redundancy led to two impactful roles.
Breaking Bureaucracy: Practical steps to make arts funding more accessible.
Networking with Care: Tips for building connections when you feel vulnerable.
Commercial vs. Local Authority Work: Insights from two very different worlds.
Creating a Culture of Care: Why human-centered practices matter in the arts.
Big Picture Thinking: How small acts of care fuel energy for global change.
Want to hear more?
Subscribe now for After Hours Bonus Content- click here
Or join The Irregular Membership and get Jenn’s support to start your own personal rebellion.
Season 2 Episode 13
Transcripts
Start Time: 00:00:02.520
End Time: 00:25:56.220
Jenn Wilson: Hello, everyone, and welcome to today's episode of the Irregular Humans Podcast with me, Jenn Wilson. My guest today is Natalie Chan. Welcome, Natalie.
Jenn Wilson: Hi, thank you for having me, Jen. I'm really excited and delighted to be chatting to you.
Jenn Wilson: It's great to have you here. And Natalie is a producer who, like me, works in the arts. I've worked in the arts for a long time, and you work with a whole range of different companies and organisations and projects, don't you, Natalie? So,
Jenn Wilson: I'd love to hear from you a bit about what makes you an irregular human.
Natalie Chan she/her: Thank you, Jen. Yeah, that's a great question to start with.
Natalie Chan she/her: with the name of the podcast. I've moved over from Hong Kong, so I didn't grow up in this country.
Natalie Chan she/her: And I think that gives me a slight different perspective, different culture upbringing, and it took me sometimes to really navigate the context and the ecosystem, the British politeness, within the arts, and I see things sometimes differently.
Natalie Chan she/her: because of that upbringing experience and that immigration experience moving to this country. So, that's probably one of the things that makes me irregular. And then secondly, I've also had a bit of a squiggly path, in a sense, I've genuinely done quite a lot of different things in a short space of time. Sometimes it's by choice, sometimes it was because projects came to an end, funding ended.
Natalie Chan she/her: I've also, sadly, faced a redundancy, which is very common now with the challenges, and I've had to turn them
Natalie Chan she/her: From challenges into opportunities.
Natalie Chan she/her: And didn't quite have a straightforward path, so… Yeah.
Jenn Wilson: Yeah, and that's very often the case for anyone who works… I mean, my parents' generation were the generation where you could have a job for life.
Jenn Wilson: But, you know, I'm in my 50s, you're a lot younger than me, and I think that the world's really changed, and very few people have that kind of career for life…
Jenn Wilson: you know, you're in a job and you're set, but I think the arts, even more than many other places, is a very uncertain arena to work in, isn't it? And…
Jenn Wilson: Things are very short-term, and creative, and quick turnarounds, and that can be lively and fun, but it can also be really challenging.
Natalie Chan she/her: Yeah…
Jenn Wilson: So, tell us a bit about how you've… how you've navigated those challenges then, and, you know, what sort of things, what sort of experiences you've had.
Natalie Chan she/her: Yeah.
Natalie Chan she/her: I think… Currently, M…
Natalie Chan she/her: I have two main jobs, they're both part-time, and they actually fit in quite well together. I work part-time as the Arts and Culture Project Commissioner for Luton Council, so it's an arts role within a local government, and trying to deliver arts activities, influence policy within that local context.
Natalie Chan she/her: Working within the local government.
Natalie Chan she/her: And the other hat I have is I work as production coordinator for a West End production company.
Natalie Chan she/her: which are very different, but actually a good combination to have. And I never would have thought I would take these jobs, if it wasn't, like.
Natalie Chan she/her: for redundancy. Last year, sadly, I previously was running a small venue called Strepton Space Project in South London. I was the executive director, and we were doing some great work. We were making space to support marginalised artists. We have these neighbourhood days where we feed everybody. We were really trying to make an impact on the community.
Natalie Chan she/her: But we don't receive regular funding, and due to a series of challenges last year, trusts and foundations became overly subscribed by many, and I'm sure some people who work in the charitable sector may resonate with that. We've actually had to make the responsible decision to close.
Natalie Chan she/her: Through that period, I wasn't sure what I was gonna do next, and I have really chucked my hat in the ring.
Jenn Wilson: Good evening.
Natalie Chan she/her: I think, into many jobs, and these were the things that landed for me, the council job and the commercial company. And, it wasn't… it wasn't what I expected, but actually, I have felt I'm able to make change and really get stuff done in these roles.
Jenn Wilson: That's fantastic! I'm not… I'm really fascinated in this, because I… years ago, I worked for my local authority as an arts and festivals development manager, and I felt really stifled in that role, and…
Jenn Wilson: being, for me, being a small cog in a big machine just really did not work. And I felt like…
Jenn Wilson: you know, I couldn't see the impact of the work that I wanted to make and the changes that I was making, but I know you're not feeling like that, you know, your role at Luton, you're really using your experience
Jenn Wilson: And that experience of marginalisation of your own, of coming from Hong Kong to the UK, and being treated, I guess, as someone who's different, another, and that sort of thing, and you're bringing that into the work you're doing in a local authority. How's that working?
Natalie Chan she/her: Yeah, it's great, and I should say I'm really fortunate to have had very supportive managers that support me to do that. And I think we all share the same ethos, and I… earlier on, and even when I interviewed for the job, I was able to articulate, actually.
Natalie Chan she/her: Independent artists sometimes.
Natalie Chan she/her: they're very time-poor, they can't really jump through lots of hoops to apply for funding from the council. If you genuinely want to support economic growth, support skills development, you've got to remove some barriers, and I was saying that, but there was also evidenced by the voices in the community, so I think me sort of being on the inside, and artists on, I guess, don't see as an inside and outside
Natalie Chan she/her: But in this context, it is, and we should name it, and we're saying the same thing, and that the management was really listening. Our direct sort of line managers have our back, and because we're sort of small enough as a department that doesn't really get the attention of the
Natalie Chan she/her: big bosses within the council, or the councillors,
Natalie Chan she/her: it's small enough to not need to go through a whole voting process to change. I was able to put some changes. For example, we have money available at the Council for people to apply for. It's small amounts, but it is still grassroots activity that can happen in the neighbourhood. And we've now, for the arts part of it, we've allowed
Natalie Chan she/her: individuals to apply.
Natalie Chan she/her: And, in order to convince the Council that it is still diligent, I've added a reference check process, but that has removed… previously, they were saying, we're only going to fund CICs and charities, and from experience, I know a lot of people are not quite there on their journey, and are just, sort of.
Natalie Chan she/her: building up their own freelance business company to get to that step with their organisational structure. So that's one thing I did. And the second thing I did was I just said, we're gonna ask for governance documents, bank details, or any confirmation of partnerships when we afford the funding, not when people apply, because I was like, that's a lot of work, and that will put people off applying when you ask for all of
Natalie Chan she/her: a few things up front, and I…
Natalie Chan she/her: convinced the management to say, it doesn't make any difference. You're still gonna have all of those on file, I'll keep those records when we decide to award the funding. And if they don't provide it, then that's okay, I will not give them the money. And, fortunately, they said yes. I should say.
Natalie Chan she/her: I just quickly want to add, it took me some learning, but in those meetings with stakeholders, I tried to really listen. Obviously, at first, people have come back and say, no, we've done that for 20 years. I've heard that phrase a lot.
Natalie Chan she/her: of immediately jumping into defense and saying, from my perspective, artists need this, that, and…
Natalie Chan she/her: like, what I was about to say, I really took a deep breath, held myself back, and asked them, tell me more. You said there's still diligence concerns. I'd be interested to understand what's your thinking, so we can find a solution to meet halfway through. I was really inviting them to tell me more what is on their mind, what they're concerned about, and that's the way I found those middle ground solutions to check records.
Natalie Chan she/her: preferences.
Jenn Wilson: For example, and move things along.
Jenn Wilson: That's a really great point, Natalie. Like, I think that what can often happen, isn't it, that… that… that when… as marginalised people.
Jenn Wilson: We can find ourselves in situ… or as allies to marginalized people, or as advocating, as you were in that instance, for individual artists inside of your role, inside a huge bureaucracy. You know, you're in that ally-mediating role there, aren't you? But we can find ourselves in situations where
Jenn Wilson: we are just, like, not understood, and not heard, because we're asking for something, and they're just not understanding the language. And… and it's easy to sort of end up in a situation where you're going, no, you're wrong, and just, like…
Jenn Wilson: getting… almost making that entrenchment worse by… by kind of being insistent about a thing. And what you're describing there, I love it, because it's a lot of what I talk about in my consent work, is trying to find that common ground, and going.
Jenn Wilson: Okay, what's going on for you?
Jenn Wilson: okay, how can I meet you there? You know, what… this is what's going on for me, the artists need this. What's going on for you is you need all of this documentation and paperwork because your accountability as a funder requires you to have it, and that's quite right.
Jenn Wilson: But how are we… how are we mediating that? And that asking, rather than telling them?
Jenn Wilson: is really key, I think.
Jenn Wilson: Do you find that, you use that technique in other, things that you're doing as well? That… that asking, that, this is what's happening, what's going on for you, kind of technique?
Natalie Chan she/her: Yeah, and Jen, thank you for summarizing that so beautifully. Like, you mentioned, like, the role of the mediator, and how you're translating between the two. I think you're very good at describing those, so thank you. Yes, I do actually use that technique a little bit.
Natalie Chan she/her: not so much right now, because I'm really happy about the work I'm doing, but earlier when I was in my job searching process, and it took a little bit of time to get to this point as well.
Natalie Chan she/her: I was also still at networking events whenever I can, because I was like, I would like to still keep up with the industry.
Natalie Chan she/her: and hear what opportunities there are. But I was quite afraid of people asking, oh, Natalie, what are you up to? And I have… I don't really want to tell people sometimes in some rooms that I'm looking for work. And in those contexts,
Natalie Chan she/her: if I don't feel like talking about myself, I try and ask people thoughtful questions when they share their work, and you know the classic thing, you meet someone, what are you up to? What are you doing? Those sort of opener questions in the networking context, which is quite common in the arts, I'm sure, in other places as well. I will keep asking people, oh, what have you learned from that experience? What was your proudest moment?
Natalie Chan she/her: Or, I even have a good question that is, what made you smile this week?
Jenn Wilson: Thank you.
Natalie Chan she/her: a good icebreaker question I have at the back of my pocket.
Natalie Chan she/her: And those will get the other person talking, and I really try to listen, and if there's useful information, I know they may be looking for a producer, or they may know somebody who's looking. I probably will follow up by email afterwards, but I will have made them feel really good about themselves in that 10-minute networking conversation, and hopefully they'll have a good impression of me, even though they don't know what I was up to.
Natalie Chan she/her: And that worked for me, and it's something I used when I felt like.
Natalie Chan she/her: a little bit vulnerable, and just accepting that we're human, we have those moments, I don't always use that. I sometimes will still love to talk about my work, but I do pull that technique if that day I just didn't feel like talking about myself.
Jenn Wilson: Yeah.
Jenn Wilson: It's… that's really great, because I know… I mean, I know, as a neurodivergent person, I'm often really struggling networking situations, and once you get me going, I'm very chatty and friendly, and I'd like to think easy to talk to, but… but in those networking situations, it's very easy, isn't it, to feel like you're on the spot, and someone's asked you a question.
Jenn Wilson: And you just don't know what to say.
Jenn Wilson: And so turning that into a… into that kind of open question for another person, to get them talking.
Jenn Wilson: It's a really great way to make networking work if you've got a different way of being, and…
Jenn Wilson: And thinking and doing, yeah.
Jenn Wilson: Do you think… Natalie, I'm gonna ask, do you think any of, like, in terms of, like.
Jenn Wilson: this idea of being an irregular person. You know, that idea to break down the bureaucracy in the council, and to use these, like, alternative ways of communicating when you're networking and so on. Do you think that comes from…
Jenn Wilson: In any way, your kind of otherness, your… your difference, you know, is… where… do you think that… that… that being of the change, is that… is that something that's coming from who you are and the experiences you've had?
Natalie Chan she/her: Yes, perhaps, yes.
Natalie Chan she/her: And I think maybe not so much upbringing.
Jenn Wilson: Huge.
Natalie Chan she/her: I think… I've certainly previously been in jobs where, I wasn't very supported.
Natalie Chan she/her: Or I, yeah, I wasn't brave enough to ask for the support that I, I need.
Jenn Wilson: Hmm…
Natalie Chan she/her: And, there… I've also, I should say, I've worked for…
Natalie Chan she/her: and it took me sometimes to learn, even within the arts, sometimes if you're in a charitable organization that is funded by the Arts Council of England, there is usually more accountability, there are processes and policies a company follows. There are also the type of
Natalie Chan she/her: private companies that are led by a single founder, or are led by somebody who brings in that investment themselves, especially in the commercial sector, that is very much subjective. If the boss likes you, then you will progress in that company. If they don't, then, then that's it.
Natalie Chan she/her: it took me… it took… it took, like, mistake… I'm not sure whether mistake's the right word, but it took me several rodeos to learn, the context, and I think…
Natalie Chan she/her: I think… M…
Natalie Chan she/her: I think, obviously, my upbringing was also when I first moved to the UK, my mum and dad were also reminding me, you should just try and follow the instructions, do as you're told, and that's how you'll survive it. I don't totally agree with that now, but that still sits within me somehow, I think.
Natalie Chan she/her: And obviously, there's definitely that desire to… I want to make sure I do whatever I can to stay where… stay in a job, and can sustain a project, can sustain my career to make my parents proud. So I think a combination of all those things
Natalie Chan she/her: I have shaped a little bit of that technique for me and how I am.
Natalie Chan she/her: I still think that is authentically me.
Jenn Wilson: Yes.
Natalie Chan she/her: Yes, but I think it has… it has definitely taken difficult experiences where, companies haven't been very supportive, or there was just nowhere to turn to when things have gone wrong, and it took, sort of, that to realize, okay, we work in a… in a non-equitable world at the minute, and there are structural issues.
Natalie Chan she/her: I…
Natalie Chan she/her: have recon… I think I think about where I am, and where are the structural issues, and where I don't think I'm alone in the position to solve any of that, but I still want to contribute, so I've made that my purpose and goal. I still want to make a difference within, sort of, my ability, and working as a team with other people, working as an ally, and still contributing to the wider problem.
Natalie Chan she/her: It's, of course.
Natalie Chan she/her: not a lone battle, so that's how I'll be in order to get to the purpose of making bigger change, which is removing more barriers, making it more equitable for people of all intersectionalities.
Jenn Wilson: Yeah, and it, it is, it is tough, that, that, that sort of requirement to kind of compromise somewhat, to be inside those big machines, to, and to know that
Jenn Wilson: what you're doing really is and making a difference, and to feel that you are making a difference, even if it's not the ideal, huge difference that you would love to make. You know, we all want to be the change we want to see in the world, but…
Jenn Wilson: that those small changes are really, really significant. You might not be changing the whole world for everyone, but you're changing the world for that individual artist who couldn't access the support they need to make the work that they want to make. You've made that possible for them, and that's amazing.
Jenn Wilson: And, you know, and you feel that impact. Is it… is it very different? You said you had these two very different roles, and you've got a role in a commercial organization, which is very different from working in a local authority. So what… what happens in there that's, you know, what's going on in that role?
Natalie Chan she/her: Yeah, so I'm currently production coordinator on Top Hat Tour, so that's touring around the UK, it's currently at Southbank center for the Christmas period.
Natalie Chan she/her: And obviously, it's not just me, there are several people in the production team, because I only work part-time there as well, but I'm part of a bigger production team that are sort of the representatives of the producers, so we support, all the stage management, actors, lighting, sound, carpentry, dressers, wardrobe, all those departments that you see on a big musical.
Natalie Chan she/her: We ensure everyone has what they need to do their best work. We book their travel, accommodation when we can, and we make sure everyone has a contract, make sure invoices gets paid to our accounts department.
Natalie Chan she/her: that's the sort of work I do in that role, and I took that role because
Natalie Chan she/her: Previously, I was independently producing a lot of theater shows myself. I was producing things at the small to mid-scale, so taking shows through the Edinburgh Fringe, or having a run at a mid-sized house of, like, a 100-seater at London Soho theater. And I work with a closely knit team and still making stuff happen, and I was really proud of that.
Natalie Chan she/her: But I recognize in order to grow, I don't think I could do that on my own and just continue to scale up the work I make. So this was a really strategic career step for me, to go inside a much bigger company who are producing things at the Southbank Center, with over a thousand seats in the auditorium.
Natalie Chan she/her: And being, again, maybe a smaller cog in a big machine, like, there's over 100 people involved
Natalie Chan she/her: on stage, backstage, in that tour, so, it's a much very different ballgame. I think…
Natalie Chan she/her: again, like, there are things that I can't change, like, the budgets are set by, people above me, but I always try my best, I get back to people when they're unsuccessful, with a job, when they apply to us wherever possible. Commercial companies sometimes are not as good as doing that, I have found.
Natalie Chan she/her: Just because we're so busy and we're dealing with so many people. I think it's the volume… it's not the intention, but it's the volume of people we're dealing with, results in sometimes a lot more emails get missed.
Natalie Chan she/her: Things get slipped through the crack that way. And,
Natalie Chan she/her: So I… I do my best, I try and always make sure invoices are paid on time, or I even, sort of, because our account system also has a process to get the invoice approved before it can be paid. I try and always give freelancers a reminder, send it to me by Monday, and I'll ensure you can get paid that week, because if you send it to me on Wednesday, it'll have to be the following week, because our payment
Natalie Chan she/her: day is a Tuesday, so there's those little things. I try and do my part to support the people. Yeah.
Jenn Wilson: Yeah, and again, it's like those small things, you know, as a person who's been the freelancer on the end of that sort of thing, make a massive difference, not just to when you get paid, but also to feeling…
Jenn Wilson: like you're connected, and like someone cares, and like there's a culture of care and collaboration around things. And I get that from the work that you do, that, you know, that actually they are, small steps towards a sort of vision for…
Jenn Wilson: a world that is more like that. You know, if you could, like, describe, you know, the kinds of, culture that you're trying to create here, you know, what sort of things are you…
Jenn Wilson: Really passionate about and working towards their…
Natalie Chan she/her: Yeah, I think… that's a great question. I think I'm passionate about a care-led way of working.
Jenn Wilson: Mmm.
Natalie Chan she/her: Hmm… And also, being human-centered, and
Natalie Chan she/her: Recognizing that… recognizing that we all have lives, we all… all want to survive and happily survive our journey as we walk through this world, and try and make sure
Natalie Chan she/her: the work enables us to do that, and not further drains us. And I also… I think there's a larger part of… there's not… not sure whether that's right, but there's a part of me who wants to make sure… I mean, we have much bigger problems in the world, like the climate crisis, and
Natalie Chan she/her: And there's war, every… in certain places at the minute. And part of me thinks.
Natalie Chan she/her: we're not doing a lot about it because we're all so busy with our work. We work in a capitalist system. We have to fight up for our own survival before we think about other people who are suffering in this planet.
Natalie Chan she/her: And I… I think if everybody receives a little bit more care, then maybe everybody will have energy left in their tank to fight the bigger battles.
Jenn Wilson: That's my thinking.
Natalie Chan she/her: I mean, yeah, so that's what I'm striving towards, to make sure everybody's got enough time left.
Natalie Chan she/her: And can collectively still make progress towards the very important things.
Jenn Wilson: Yeah, and I absolutely love that, Natalie, and I think that's really, again, you know, something that really resonates with me, with my work, with what a lot of the people who listen to this podcast will be.
Jenn Wilson: feeling of, like, well, I'm just one person, how much difference can I make? But at the same time, well, actually.
Jenn Wilson: How we are, how we treat each other, how much care we could put out in there to ourselves and each other is making a culture shift, isn't it? In a small way, you know, in the sphere of influence that we have.
Jenn Wilson: to shift the world into a different direction, instead of just going, oh, well, there's nothing I can do about it. You're doing what you can about it inside your sphere of influence, isn't it?
Jenn Wilson: Yeah.
Jenn Wilson: Oh, Natalie, it's been so great listening to you talk about, all of that today. And if people are listening and want to find out a bit more about you, about your work, maybe work with you, or get some tips from you about your brilliant networking techniques.
Jenn Wilson: Where on the internet would they be able to find you?
Natalie Chan she/her: I am on Instagram and LinkedIn. My Instagram handle is at NatNatNatalie Chan, and I think you can just type my name and it should pop up. It's just Natalie Chan on LinkedIn. Yeah, thank you for having me, and for, like, holding space and asking great questions.
Jenn Wilson: It's an absolute pleasure. Thanks for being one of our guests here on Irregular Humans. Goodbye now from Natalie Chan and me. Bye.
Natalie Chan she/her: Thank you, thank you, bye!
