Hardwood flooring may seem like a straightforward topic, but as Eric G sits down with Kelly Ragalie Titus Regalie from Treadline Construction, we dive deep into the nuances that make it anything but simple. From the distinct charm of hardwood to the potential disasters of DIY refinishing, this episode is a feast of knowledge for homeowners and DIY enthusiasts alike. We kick things off by discussing the common fears surrounding flooring; it’s not just about picking a pretty wood and slapping it down. Oh no, the devil is in the details! Kelly and Titus shed light on the craftsmanship that goes into proper installation and maintenance, revealing the shocking truths behind those “easy” home improvement projects that often turn into epic fails. Ever tried sanding your floor and ended up with something that looks like a wave pool? Yeah, we’ve all been there. So, what’s the secret sauce for a flawless finish? We explore different types of finishes, their pros and cons, and how the right choice can make all the difference. Whether you’re a seasoned pro or a weekend warrior, this episode offers a treasure trove of tips to ensure your hardwood floors not only look fabulous but stand the test of time. Trust me, you’ll want to take notes!

Takeaways:

• Hardwood flooring isn't just a weekend project; it requires technical finesse and knowledge.
• Choosing the right finish can drastically affect the durability and look of your hardwood floors.
• Moisture levels in your home can make or break your hardwood flooring experience, so keep them in check!
• It's critical to choose the right type of flooring based on your lifestyle, especially if you have pets or kids.
• Old floors can have hidden surprises like asbestos or tar mastic; always test before you start sanding!
• Pre-finished versus site-finished hardwood: it's not just about looks, but longevity and maintainability too.

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Treadline Hardwood
• Home Depot
• Treadline Construction https://treadlineconstruction.com/

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Information given on the Around the House Show should not be considered construction or design advice for your specific project, nor is it intended to replace consulting at your home or jobsite by a building professional. The views and opinions expressed by those interviewed on the podcast are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of the Around the House Show.

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Coast to coast, it's the nation's number one home improvement radio show and podcast with certified kitchen designer Eric G. And co host John Dudley, a former contractor and online technology expert.

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Welcome to the around the House show, your trusted source for everything about your home.

I'm Eric G. Thanks for joining us today.

We have got an episode for you guys today that is, we have been talking about for a while, and I've wanted to do it, and we finally have done it.

We've got Titus and Kelly from Treadw, Treadline Hardwood out there.

They are my neighbors, and they got to come on the show because I believe what these guys are doing.

And you know something, we haven't really dove into hardwood flooring and flooring like that like we should have in the past.

So this episode is for you guys.

Welcome to around the House.

All right.

Thank you.

Well, we're gonna have a fun discussion today because I tell you what, flooring is one of those things that I think is very rightfully so intimidating for many homeowners out there.

And it is something that sounds so easy, but to do it can be so difficult or you gotta be really skilled to do it, especially when it comes down to refinishing and things like that.

I have seen so many contractor disasters, let alone homeowner disasters, of running down to the big orange store and grabbing the most aggressive sander and taking half the floor off with it.

What do you guys see out there?

I mean, we see.

We see a lot of that.

And I guess generally speaking, it.

It is a little bit more difficult than people.

People.

People realize when they start.

And I would say the biggest thing is just what a lot of people don't realize is the.

The devil's in the details when it comes to hardwood floors.

I think anyone can go pick up a sander from Home Depot and.

And bring it into their house.

But when it comes to all the hand work and all the minor things around the edges and things like, that's really where professionals shine opposed to a homeowner, no question.

And I tell you what, I have seen so many horrific sanding jobs out there where it looks like you walk in a room, and I'm like, this has more waves than the Pacific Ocean does in it because obviously things were not done correctly.

I think second and third and fourth that I. I do inspections on wood floors.

All the time.

And people don't realize how much technicality is required to sand a floor properly.

And it can get out of hand very quickly.

And it's all depending on the finish.

I mean, Kelly, you, you, you're a little bit different in this where Titus is really Treadline, hard hardwood all the way through on that.

That's what you guys do.

But you're also one of the national experts as far as what I could say about you for flooring altogether.

So you do a lot with Treadline and then of course, you've got a whole bunch to do outside of that.

Yeah, I'm a, I'm an inspector with the National Wood Flooring association, so I go around when something does go wrong with the hardwood floor and I inspect it on site, talk to all the people involved, find out kind of the hows, whys, because of the failures and, and, and professionals can fail too.

So it's, it's not just homeowners.

So that also speaks to how difficult it can be to get your floor right.

So, yeah, now I see a lot of things that go wrong and try to help when I can, especially on the treadline side, prevent those things from happening.

But it's so crazy.

And half the time it's some like weird white pickled oak or white oak or something that looks kind of a milky white or even a pink.

And they think, oh, great weekend project, I'm going to fix that.

And it's so far from the truth.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

And then it, it, it gets so much deeper than just the sanding portion.

We, we haven't even really to touched down on finishes yet as far as what finishes to choose, the application process and then all the different chemical makeups between all of them to make sure that they play nicely together.

And I've definitely seen my, my own horror stories.

Having me come in and fix what they've done and the kind of things people come up with is pretty crazy.

Well, I think that one of the big problems that I see out there is that there's so many different finishes depending right on the age of the product that's down there.

It could be waxed from the 50s, it could be an aluminum oxide that was pre finished and all those are way different preps just to get a finish on it, right?

Oh, yeah.

Oh yeah.

For example, some of the wax floors, things like that, you need different Chemicals to strip them off, they'll clog your sandpaper, Things like that.

Aluminum oxide is its own animal in the sense that aluminum oxide is a type of sandpaper.

So you, you find yourself sanding sandpaper with sandpaper.

And even for us as the pros, depending on the size of the project, it's.

It takes twice the time for us to get through that.

And then you have just like the, your water base and your Swedish finishes.

I don't know if you know about those, Eric.

Yeah, they don't like to play nice either.

So if you don't sand them all the way off, they'll, they won't mix when you put the new stuff back down.

So it gets pretty deep.

Well, especially when you're.

I mean it's like basic 101.

You're trying to mix water and oil.

Yep.

They don't go well together that way.

So I get that you've got waxes out there which if you put, if you got any wax on it, you put something that's a water based finish on it, it's just going to fish eye and create a mess.

If it even cures, I bet.

Yeah, I like to go ahead.

I was gonna say there's also situations where, you know, some of those older floors where you've got waxes and different things that have soaked so deeply into the pores of the wood when the floor is sanded that doesn't always come out completely and sometimes the sanding because of the heat and stuff will actually reactivate it and come up to the top and then it reacts with the finish.

Right.

So you can have some, some issues when it comes to that type of stuff too.

That.

But you'd never know that any of that was even in the floor when you go to sand it.

Yeah, that's, that's those rookie mistakes that we see out there.

And I think to me, my favorite floor is a hardwood floor.

I like the.

I've.

I've seen enough issues with.

There's a lot of people.

I'll just put the pre finished stuff down.

I get it.

But to me as a homeowner and as somebody doing the project myself, you're just not going to get the same look when you put a pre finished product down.

What's your guys's take on that?

I'm not the biggest fan of it personally.

Well, well, I mean, I guess it kind of depends.

Right.

Because there's.

When it comes to pre finished there's tons of different levels.

Right.

You have your solid pre finished which is going to be your real wood.

And I guess in my mind that's real wood and you could refinish it just as many times as your sand and finish on, on site floor.

Right.

And then you go into some of the engineered products and some of those last just as long as the sand and finish on site.

Right.

Because there's only so much that you can sand out of them before they're trash, no matter what.

And then from there you have the engineered, which is the cheaper stuff.

Obviously that's, it's wood but it's not quite a complete substitute.

And so I guess from my opinion, as long as you're educating yourself properly and picking what works best for you and what you got, I have no, I've got no problem with it.

Nice.

Yeah.

To me with, I've always had dogs and pets and things like that.

To me I love that finish over the top and I know it's not foolproof but I sure love the, the sand and finish in place because to me it just gives it a, a smoother look.

I don't have little micro bevels or something to catch dirt in and all that other stuff, but that's my take on it.

And I know other people like that look and I have no problem with it.

It's a personal opinion but to me I sure like the look of just a well done finished floor that was done on site.

I think some, some.

Something to note about that is the finishes that they put on site, the pre finish, right.

They're done at a factory, are very different than what we put on site.

So for example, what is put on site is typically something that has a little bit more stretch in it.

Like a urethane type base of some kind.

Whether it's a water base or something like that.

What they put on at factories has a typically, it's typically more of an aluminum oxide type finish which has, it's a, it's a harder, more I guess you could call brittle finish versus kind of the stretchy finish.

And so they wear very differently.

So a site finish floor, typically you go, you'll get scratches, dents, dings, that kind of stuff.

But a lot of times the finish is a little more stretchy.

So you don't see it in the same way.

You almost see like dents a little bit faster.

Especially, especially when it comes to like pets and different things like that where the aluminum oxide, because of that brittle, that oxide is actually a crystal line structure and when it scratches, it scratches white.

So you see it more presently Maybe a harder finish on like a scratch resistant test.

But you see that scratch much more apparently on the floor.

So some people think, oh, this finish isn't wearing well, it's not holding up or something like that.

It's doing what it's supposed to be doing.

You just see it in a different way.

And a lot of people don't realize that until they're living on the floor.

To find out more, head to aroundthe house online.com around the house will be right back with more from Treadline as we talk about the secrets of flooring.

Welcome back to the around the House Show.

Eric G. Has been chatting with Portland, Oregon's Treadline Construction and have been discussing flooring for your home.

Now let's get back to Kelly and Titus from Treadline.

And the other issue is, is how do you fix that?

You've got a, on a, on a pre finished floor, man, you're very limited on what you can do with that.

Yeah, pre finished floors, there's a couple issues.

Number one, you're typically dealing with products that are warranted by the manufacturer for a certain number of years.

And if you start to mess with it, you lose your warranty.

The other factor is if you're going to fix it.

Generally speaking, it's hard to do individual boards unless you have leftover stock.

Right.

If you bought extra when you first put the floor in, which a lot of people don't even think about.

But yeah, if you don't have extra boards and you go to try to replace a couple of them, that floor may not exist anymore.

Or you're dealing with old versus new.

Right.

A floor that's been down and you've worn on it, it's been exposed, exposed to UV oxidation, wear and tear, all of that, it's going to be a different color, different sheen, all of these different factors.

You bring a brand new board and put it in the middle of your floor, it's going to look kind of crappy.

So those are things to think about.

Well, that, that brings up a good point.

Wood species is a huge deal because I love a black walnut 8 inch wide plank floor.

But if I've got windows, that's now an issue.

I've seen some stuff where it's a view home and they've got a pool and it's reflecting off a couple surfaces and all of a sudden that stuff looks like driftwood in two years because all the UV is just destroying it.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, so we, there's definitely some, there's definitely differences between some of your species and your photosensitivity.

Right.

And then on top of that, just the hardness level.

Depending on what people are planning on doing with their wood floors, you, might want to think about how hard it is if you have kids or pets or something like that.

Example, like Brazilian cherry is pretty common over here in the pacific northwest.

Very, very hard.

Comes out of the Amazon rainforest, But very photosensitive.

So within about six months, you.

It's already started its.

Its first color cycle.

And it'll go all the way from kind of a pale pinky red color all the way to like, a deep blood red.

And the amount of times I've seen people flip their rugs, the ones that are underneath the sun, and it's just pale floor underneath.

And the unfortunate thing is stuff like that, it just doesn't sand out.

Those are just stuck forever, but very hard.

They hope it catches up when they move the rug again.

They do, they do.

Usually if people move their rugs, Usually by year one or two, they'll start to blend together.

But, yeah, I've seen that happen so many times.

I've seen.

I had a house probably 20 years ago in Seattle that they ran into some issues, and they had.

The painters had.

Came in and taped off the floor, and there was a lot of sun coming in off the puget sound, reflecting in there.

And they pulled it up, and there were tape marks everywhere.

And they just had to wait it out, which was not their answer they wanted to hear.

But there was not really another way to deal with it.

No.

Yeah, it was on the cabinet.

So it had cherry cabinets.

It was on the floor.

It was just one of those things where it was just a.

All right, guys.

I mean, the.

The contractors were in there trying to take the.

Put halogen lights and taking the UV filters off, Trying to get stuff to.

To equal out.

But it was a nightmare.

And sometimes that tape can cause a headache with something that's really, really sensitive.

Like that.

Exactly.

Well, it's important to note that all floors, all wood species, are sensitive in some form or fashion to light.

And again, oxidation, wear and tear, all of that, they will change color over time.

There are just certain species that are more pro than others.

Right.

So typically, most people here in the northwest have, like, an oak floor, Red oak, white oak, something like that.

There are the popular exotics, Brazilian cherry, walnuts, things like that.

But there are species that are more photosensitive than others.

So if that's something that somebody would be concerned about.

And if you're very sensitive and you can't stand having those lines or issues show up, then you should stay away from those species that are more photosensitive, for sure.

And boy, that stuff can yellow and look not what you hope it looked for.

And pretty quickly, depending on the, the finish.

And again, how much UV control is coming into that place.

It seems absolutely there are ways that you can kind of minimize some of that too.

There are some additives that you can put into some of the finishes nowadays that are like UV filters.

They act as almost like a, like a sunscreen that'll slow down that process.

I usually will recommend those if people do have photosensitive woods like maple or Brazilian cherry or walnut.

And then also you can manipulate with color.

So stain color.

Right.

So you could, you can utilize a stain color which will also kind of act as like a sunscreen for your wood and it will slow down that, that color change process.

Again, it will absolutely still change over time.

You just may not be able to see it with the naked eye kind of a.

So that's another way that you can kind of address some of those issues.

That's cool.

I like that.

Now there's so many new, a lot of changes I'm seeing out there when it comes to hardwoods.

I'm seeing companies now starting to advertise.

And again, this is, I don't know the answer to this, but I'm hearing companies actually advertise.

We've got waterproof hardwood floors.

How do you do that?

I, I, I, I scratch my head as a former contractor DIYer and Go, all right, there's a cut in there someplace.

How are you going to do that?

It doesn't make sense to me.

But is there actually a product out there that's kind of like that, at least?

Well, when people are talking about waterproof floors, they're likely talking about some of your, your plastic vinyl products, the click materials, things like that, I assume is what you're referring to.

And when it comes to those, the product itself, yeah, it's waterproof in that in essence, it's just a hunk of plastic.

Right.

But there's so many other factors involved.

Like could I install it at the bot my swimming pool and it would probably be fine.

Yeah.

But on the other hand, it's not impermeable to water in the sense that if someone spills something or something like that, it will still seep between the gaps.

And then the real problem that you're going to have is because it's like a solid layer of plastic, this moisture gets trapped underneath it and it'll end up rotting out your subfloor.

We've seen that countless times and it seems to be, we see it more now than we have ever in the sense that these LVTs and SPCs, these plastic floors have kind of taken the world by storm.

And it's been a bit of a challenge for us people pushing real hardwood because it's real and, and so we've, we've started to see more and more of that start to appear.

But I guess to answer your question, they are waterproof.

Yeah.

There's a hardwood company up in Seattle, I forgot what their name is, but they're actually trying to promote a waterproof solid hardwood.

And they say it's in their finish.

I'm like, man, there's no way I would put that in a bathroom and expect that to get not damaged just with kids or anything else.

But that's me there.

There are a couple products out there where they've used some sort of form or fashion to almost like impregnate the actual wood species itself with some sort of finish type material.

It's it.

They're pretty unique.

They're not popular on the market, but there are a few out there.

So they, it could be one of those products that they're utilizing that sort of technology.

I've also seen some where instead of like a typical wood backing on a like an eng.

Vineyard floor, they'll use a plastic backing.

So it's an actual piece of wood that's kind of been almost seated in a plastic form of the core, if you will.

So some of those they'll try to pass on as quote unquote, real wood that's waterproof and like Titus said.

Yeah, could you put it in your pool and it'd probably be fine.

But there are other factors that may go into the fact that it's.

That's maybe not quite as waterproof, lifeproof, you know, impenetrable.

A lot of those tend to be a marketing gimmicks when it comes down to it.

I mean, if you really look at the warranty information, a lot of times there's a lot of disclaimers.

So.

So just be careful what you're, what you're picking and make sure you understand the entire product is what I would say.

Yeah, there was one time, this is probably 25 years ago, when Bamboo Boo first came on the market.

And I went, I'm going to try this maybe 30 years ago.

It was a long time ago.

It was when it first showed up at Costco.

To find out more, head to aroundthehouse online.com around the house.

We'll be right back with more from Treadline as we talk about the secrets of flooring.

Welcome back to the around the House Show.

Eric G. Has been chatting with Portland, Oregon's Treadline Construction and have been discussing flooring for your home.

Now let's get back to Kelly and Titus from Treadline.

And I went, oh, I'm gonna do this on my entryway and see how it worked.

I had it in there for maybe a month and a half and I'm like, this is coming out.

It could not hand.

I was like, this is the most horrible product.

It was just getting, I had kids, but it was just getting tore up so quickly and boy, I'm happy I didn't do the whole house with it.

But it was just fell apart so quickly.

Once you got through the wear layer on it, it just came apart like it was grass.

It was kind of.

It is, it is.

Basically it's a fast growing tree, ish, grass, whatever you want to call it.

And basically they just take the fibers, pull them all apart and then put them back together with a bunch of resins.

And they're very sensitive to moisture, so a lot of people don't realize that.

So in an entry where you've got people tracking in mud and rain and whatever all day, obviously it's not going to be a good fit.

A lot of the bamboo products that are now out on the market, they still have a very high hardness durability to them, but they're so linear in, in their look.

Every scratch, dent and ding, you can see right away.

And then again, they're pretty sensitive to moisture.

So they could be a right fit for the right person in the right home.

Everybody's got a little bit different lifestyle, a little bit different expectation of what they want their floor to do.

So finding the right floor, whether it's the right species, the right color, the right texture, the right format, whether it's solid or engineered or anything like that.

There's a lot of factors that go into picking the right floor, and not every floor is right for everybody.

Great point, Kelly.

Great point.

And one of the things too is you got to be very careful, you know where that's coming from because I've seen some of the bamboo products come out with just, they keep it from turning black because They've dipped it in formaldehyde overseas and you could have some other health issues with that.

If you're sensitive to that.

It's something you gotta be really careful with.

Sure.

There's certainly products out there.

You, you want a quality product.

When you're, when you're purchasing something, it's a pretty big investment for just about anybody.

This is not a small investment.

Even, even if you're going for a lower cost floor, it's still a pretty big investment and something that you should be able to live on for decades if it's the right floor.

But if you're choosing something that's a little bit inferior quality, you don't know where it came from there, There could be all kinds of different things that could affect the outcome of how it, how you wear on it, whether it's off gassing, certain things.

Definitely do your research and into the product and make sure you're, you're getting something quality.

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with Kelly.

And I guess on top of that, bamboo is kind of its own special thing in the sense that it's, it's been a big victim of greenwashing.

There's a lot of, a lot of, a lot of manufacturers or manufacturers in China or wherever that, that'll send these over.

And they're advertised as eco friendly products and people will choose them over traditional hardwood because they, they think that cutting down trees is bad.

But what they don't realize is that these floors, these bamboo floors are being created in a, in a factory.

Right.

They're being impregnated with resins and formaldehydes and who knows what else.

And then they're being coated with different coatings that, that sometimes aren't, aren't the best.

And then they're being sent across the ocean.

Most of your traditional oaks that we see over here are usually coming from northern United States, southern United States, whether it's a red or white or Canada.

And all they're, all they're doing is they're getting cut down.

And most these mills that, these mills are these loggers in or.

I lost my train of thought.

That's okay.

Yeah.

I mean, well, what, what you have is, is Titus.

It's interesting because you've got a very clear path to market with that.

They're cutting it down.

It's going to the logging truck, it's going to the mill.

Everything else where I've seen videos of what was 15 years ago with some of the bamboo products where they were, they get in there with a backhoe they dig these big pits and fill it up with formaldehyde and they're cutting the bamboo down, dipping that in before it goes out so it doesn't get to kill the mold, the mildew and all that stuff on it.

And then it goes out and gets made into flooring.

And I'm like, yeah, that's a whole different path to market than what you see with the traditional hardwood.

For me, pretty black and white.

That's not green.

To me, it's way greener to be putting in a American hardwood there and get something that's fairly locally sourced.

Yeah, yeah.

And I guess what I was going to say was to say forestry practices are required by the US at this point.

If you, if you're logging trees in the United States, you need to have, you have to meet those certain regulations and have those plans in place.

And there's just that, that china or wherever your bamboo is coming from, they're not practicing those sustainability practices when it comes to any of that.

And obviously the, the journey from the forest to the mill to your front door with some of these traditional North American hardwoods is significantly better in a lot of ways.

Yeah.

So out in finish and maybe.

Kelly, this is a great question for you on this one.

There's so many different finishes that I'm seeing out there in the marketplace.

And first off, when I tell people, hey, I'm thinking about doing my, my floors, I always say the first place isn't to go to the home center.

Go to a place if you're going to DIY this, understand the different products because you don't want to be getting the home center.

You want to be actually working with people that actually know hardwood floors.

What are the finishes that you're liking out there?

And again, it's depending on the look, whether it's a matte finished, oil based or one of the new water based finishes or urethanes out there.

What are you seeing in the marketplace today that you like?

So there's a couple different factors.

One of the bigger ones is going to be durability.

Right.

So how long is it going to last?

Because you don't want to be refinishing your floors faster than you want to.

Because again, another big investment.

Right.

So durability is a huge factor and every single type of finish has a little bit of dirt, different durability.

One of the specialties that that Treadline uses is what's called a Swedish finish.

It's an acid cured, solvent based conversion varnish.

Sounds really scary.

It's not it's a good finish, it's.

A very good finish.

As far as durability goes, it is the most durable thing that can be applied to your floor on site today.

Then the second most popular one is probably a water based finish.

So instead of that acid cured, solvent based.

Right.

You've got a water based type finish.

Right.

These finishes are typically two component.

Right.

So kind of like an epoxy but not quite so brittle.

But the durability between the two is, is night and day.

So like a water based finish, a typical refinish is going to be somewhere in the five to seven year mark.

A Swedish finish you're typically going to get somewhere between 10 and 20 years depending on your lifestyle.

That may not be a factor.

If you're a little grandma with that, never has anybody over and you wear socks like a water based finish would be more than sufficient for you.

But you know somebody who's got five dogs and five kids and wear shoes all the time, they're going to want something a little more durable.

Right.

They also have very different looks.

So like a Swedish finish typically gives you a little bit more richer, deeper, more.

I don't want to say amber because that's a bad word in today's market, but a little bit more of an oil type look to the finish where a water based finish has a typical like white milky, sort of like a plasticky look to it which may also be very popular.

Right.

So a lot of the like Scandinavian looks and kind of the, the more modern lighter looks that that water base might be a good finish for color.

Color versus durability.

Those which one's more important to you.

And then there's also other finishes out there.

One that I really like is it's called a penetrating oil, it's not a film based finish.

So a film based finish, like the Swedish and water based that we're talking about is a film that sits on top of your floor and you wear down on it over time.

And then when that's worn off you put more, more film on it.

A penetrating oil is an oil that actually seeps into the pores of the wood, freezes inside those pores and then hardens.

And that's where your durability comes from.

It actually raises the hardness level of the species of wood that you're putting it on.

And those floors when you're wearing on them, you can't see the scratches in the same way because you're, there's no film that you're scratching on.

So if you're kind of looking for something that's a more natural, like no sheen, like a very traditional European sort of look.

A penetrating oil might be a great option for you.

So there's a lot of different options out there.

Those are just three of my favorite ones and the most popular ones that we see, especially here in the Northwest.

But every single one has its own pros and cons.

And I would certainly talk to a professional about what would be right for your home because.

And your lifestyle because everybody's got a little bit different factor that needs to be considered.

Yeah, that makes sense.

And I'm sure, Titus, when you're out at the job site talking to people out there, it's.

There's 22 variables, right, that go into that decision making process of what's going to be the right floor for you.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And it, and it's a lot like what Kelly said.

If you, if you have dogs and kids and things like that, then and you live up more of the traditional American lifestyle.

Everybody's in and out, everybody's always doing things right, things like that.

And you're looking to basically have your floors done done and be done and very minimal maintenance.

Typically I push people in the direction of a Swedish finish, right.

With the understanding that durability is the priority and maybe looks are second.

When people are really trying to achieve that, that kind of European white oak look, which is really, really in right now, kind of that matte European white oak look, water based is usually the direction I push them if they're willing to give up that durability.

And then these penetrating oils that Kelly mentioned, they're a little more DIY friendly in the sense that they're a little bit more forgiving because you don't actually have a sheet of plastic floor that shows every little detail when it comes to touch ups, things like that.

A lot of these products are marketed as touch up Able.

If you scratch your floor or replace a section or something like that, typically they're much easier to blend.

That being said, they probably come with the most maintenance, for lack of a better term.

It's like living on a cutting board.

You need to make sure that you oil it regularly, clean it regularly, shoes off, things like that.

But that being said, it's much more forgiving and sometimes a little bit more long term and a little more diy.

That makes sense.

I've been out looking at homes with my girlfriend and we've been out trying to figure out, okay, what's our next place?

Because I like doing my projects I am still shocked out there with LVP flooring.

And I'm going to get on my Little Soapbox for 30 seconds here.

How many people that are building in our area in the Pacific Northwest, one and a half million dollar homes and all I see is plastic floors everywhere.

And it's driving me nuts.

Yeah, it drives me nuts every day.

Every day I see them and it's, it's a ton of different factors.

And I think the biggest thing that bothers me about LVP floors is they're not forever in the sense that they print them out of their magic play DOH machine that makes these boards, right.

People put them down on their floor and they're considered definitely an economical solution that give you that kind of hardwood like look.

But once you're done with them, they have an average lifespan very similar to even these finish on site floors, about 10 years or so.

And then once you're done with them, once you've worn through them, there's, there's no recoding process.

There's nothing like that.

You can't sand it back down and go again.

They're, they go in the dumpster.

That's terrible.

The average lifespan of a wood floor, for example, your traditional two and a quarter wide white oak or red oak, which a lot of people in the Northwest have in their homes, you can get on average 6 to 7 sands out of them.

Usually these floors outlive the people who own these houses probably in the next 30 to 40 years.

For some of these older homes that they're old and dilapidated and throw throwaway houses at this point, what they're going to start doing is they're going to start tearing down these houses and pulling these floors out and selling them as reclaimed.

And they'll probably still have another 50 years left in them.

It's just another, it's just another level.

Great point.

It's just driving me crazy because I see, I walk through some of these homes, they've been either flipped or they're a brand new build.

And I'm like, okay, is this flooring going to separate in eight months?

Are you going to start seeing those things come apart?

Or it's.

And I see the same problem with that, with where people put them in older homes where there's maybe a little more bounce on the second floor.

And all of a sudden those things just start coming across.

We get so many messages in here of how do I fix my flooring?

It's coming apart on the second floor.

And you start asking questions.

I was built in the 20s and maybe that was storage.

So it's like two by sixes up there.

It seems to me the more the floor moves, the more those things tend to come apart.

And then I always tell people, if you're gonna have to tear the whole thing out, just go put the right thing in.

Don't go through the labor to do it twice, because if it came across once, it's probably gonna do it again.

Yeah, it's definitely.

It definitely goes kind of into that conversation about value and that the term I always like is the buy once, cry once.

In the sense that if you're looking to.

To do something and be done and there's a lot of hard work involved, but once it's done, it's done and you never gotta think about it again.

So, Kelly, when you see warning claims out there with a lot of the hardwood companies, is a lot of the problems installation or it's.

They didn't.

They put it down in the basement over concrete and things are cupping and they don't know why.

Is it those kind of things or what do you see a lot these days?

Generally speaking?

Yeah, it's a lot of.

It's more prep than anything, to be honest with you.

So a lot of people, they're like, oh, yeah, I can buy this product.

I can put it in super easy.

It's do it yourself.

Or if you have a professional come in and do it, no problem.

But where I see the biggest downfall is they haven't prepped anything properly.

So every single one of these floors requires some sort of moisture.

Retarder.

Moisture vapor, depending on barrier.

Sorry, moisture barrier depending on where you're installing it.

So whether it's in a basement over concrete or if you're on a second level on sort of some sort of wood substrate, they still all require some sort of vapor or retarder or barrier.

A lot of times people don't even know that's a requirement and skip it altogether.

Right.

The other part is like, I guess you could say flatness of the floor, the substrate.

This happens a lot in basements, like you mentioned, over concrete.

Typical basement concrete floors are not flat.

And if you put down some sort of floating product.

Click product, like beer, like you had mentioned, like the lvp, those require pretty significant flat floor.

Otherwise you'll have that bouncy and those tongues and grooves can move and crack and get destroyed.

So those are all factors that people don't even think about.

A lot of times people don't read the instructions on how to install Them and Right.

Get themselves into trouble.

And, and, and once these floors, a lot of times, once these floors have failed, they are throwaway floors.

There's not a whole lot you can do.

Once those tongues and grooves have cracked, that's it.

Then you're into replacing a floor.

So definitely prep work I find to be big factor in failures when things like this happen.

Yeah, I love watching water damage.

We, I had one that my brother and I picked up a house out at Canna beach that we worked on a few years back and it was known as the blue tarp house.

It had 15 years of blue tarps on this roof.

And when we went to look at it probably three years ago, that had so had so many blue tarps up on it.

But the water was coming through the ceiling like halfway on garden hose.

And it was hitting the hardwood floors in the oak floors in the living room.

I'd never seen it this bad.

I'm sure you guys have.

But the two, two and a quarter pieces had swelled up in the living room so much they were back to back and it was three inches up in the middle of the floor.

And I was like, wow, holy smokes.

Shows you how much that floor can move when it gets too much moisture in it.

Absolutely, absolutely.

And, and, and you, you're mentioning kind of an extreme with a lot of water coming in and like a big flooding situation.

But I also see this happening when it comes to people's H vac systems.

A lot of times the humidity levels will be off.

It's too wet inside your house.

Sometimes it could be weather related.

Sometimes it can be other factors related to how your house is kind of of sealed up or not sealed up one way or another.

And wood floors especially.

But also some of these plastic LVPs and other floors, they are very sensitive to moisture and temperature.

They have a sweet spot.

We kind of call it like a Goldilocks level.

Right.

You want to have your home between 60 and 80 degrees Fahrenheit and you want your humidity levels between 30 and 50% relative humidity year round for the life of the floor.

And if you can't maintain your home conditions within those parameters, you will have problems.

They're going to be cupping and crowning.

They're going to be gapping when it's really dry.

And, and that's a normal behavior for a wood floor or even a plastic floor to do for.

It's kind of like people.

They're like living, breathing products because they do move and change with the changes of these conditions.

And a Lot of people think you just put it in and you forget about it and don't have to worry about it.

But as soon as, as one of these conditions changes, that floor is going to adapt to that and change.

And it could be problematic, could be normal behavior.

Again, some of those things can be seasonal.

When it gets really dry outside, the air is, is a little bit drier, so you might see some shrinkage.

If it's super rainy and wet and you might see them swell up a little bit.

And then when that season changes, that'll go back to normal.

That would be normal seasonal change on a floor.

But that if it's not happening on a, on a regular basis, then it might be something that's problematic to the conditions of the home.

So true.

I had an expert on here a few weeks ago that said that 81% of homes in the United States needed dehumidification.

And I'm like, holy smokes.

So if you're getting up in that 50, 60%.

Yeah.

Now everything's getting expanded.

And then when we get into those months, whether it's in wherever you're at in the country where maybe you've got the air conditioning running and it's way dry or the heat running and it's dry.

Yeah, that's just more problems of things moving around, the, the more stable you can keep it, the happier the whole house is.

Well.

And the more happy you are as a person.

If you can put a humidification system control in your own house, it's actually better for you to live in.

It actually will change your energy bills, your, your heating, your actual heating system and air conditioning system are more efficient.

And then all of your wood products in your entire house.

And it's not just the wood floor.

It could be the, the, the wood casing around your windows and doors, trims, your cabinetry.

All of that stuff is sen. A lot of times you don't pay attention to the little gaps and cracks that are everywhere or whether they swell up or shrink down.

But those are happening all the time throughout your entire structure.

Yeah, I saw insurance claim probably 10 years ago and my background is a kitchen, a bath designer.

They had your typical 80s 90s thermofoil cabinet.

So it's the particle board with the vinyl wrapped around them that's shrink wrapped.

I walked in and I have never seen woods just swell up like that.

Well, come to find out it was a rental and the people had in the basement had a pot shop going down there.

So they were 80% humidity in this house.

And they were doing the basement.

And I had never seen anything explode like that because the doors had fractures from where the vinyl had just tore apart because the particle board really had swelled up probably 30 or 40% just from the humidity.

And I wish I would have taken better pictures back then because it just told such a story about humidity in the house.

Of visually, what happens if you don't control it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I guess kind of the.

The other side of it, a really dry floor, you'll have problems as well.

We talk about all the extremes because they're.

They're the ones that are most catastrophic when it comes to high humidity levels or high levels of moisture on the other.

On the other hand, and low humidity levels, you'll end with up with very gappy floors.

And then typically they'll get loose and you'll develop squeaks and pops and, and other issues.

And I've seen, I've seen it go both ways.

I've seen installers install floors that are too wet and they dry out in the house and shrink up.

And I'll get phone calls.

Hey, my floor is really poppy.

It's bouncing around.

Things are doing stuff.

It was nailed down.

I don't know what happened.

And it's just.

The floor just shrank down and it's too small.

Yeah, absolutely.

And then, then that's a hard one.

Says, okay, what are you going to do to get it?

Are you going to raise humidity in there slowly?

What are you going to do so you don't over.

Overcompensate for that?

Yeah, yeah.

And unfortunately, if you're.

If the floor was just that wet and it shrank that much, there's really nothing, nothing you can do.

You make your whole house.

So I wanted to give a little public service announcement too, for you DIYers and even contractors out there.

If you're working in that old house and you see this black tar adhesive on the hardwood, slow your roll and do some testing.

I have seen so many social media pictures out there of people, hey, I'm working on this.

And what's this gummy stuff?

I'm just gonna sand it.

That can be an issue.

So be careful.

That asbestos mastic out there, it can be an issue, guys.

I'm putting this vinyl down.

And, well, you could have a hot mess going on there and you could make it A lot worse if you don't handle it correctly.

Titus, how do you guys deal with that stuff?

Is that somewhere you just bring in the asbestos people, let them take care of her, then come in afterwards?

Or what's the best way.

I've seen it where it's almost cheaper to rip it out, unfortunately.

Yeah, so it's.

It's a little bit dependent, unfortunately, with asbestos.

You have to call the asbestos people and have them take care of it, even if they have to tear it out in the sense that we're not allowed to disturb it.

Asbestos or lead paints, those need to be tested as well.

After.

After they're tested, obviously we can do what we need to do.

Even those.

Even that.

The gummy black tar mastic.

Even if it tests negative for asbestos, it's still quite a bit of work.

Typically we're actually using planers attached to our drum sanders, custom made planers to shave all that off.

Because you'll be there for.

You'll be there for weeks trying to get it off.

I had that at my brother's house where we had that same thing.

And the second floor had a fur floor down, but they had went down to Linoleum City or whatever and threw something on it and had all that black on it.

And that was a nightmare.

Tested it, it was fine, which I thought was kind of rare.

I was happy about that.

But there was no easy way to get that stuff off without making a hot mess.

There's no easy way.

Some things that we've done in the past is we've actually installed hardwood floors on top of their existing hardwood floors, which I know some people advocate against the layering.

But when you have asbestos abatement, it's.

It can be a pretty costly fiasco when you have to deal with that.

You are able to install wood floors on top of your existing wood.

Wood floors.

So you just run it perpendicular to your existing and you can add another layer.

There we go.

We all saw what happened to.

What was that?

Was that Trader Joe's here in Portland when somebody.

I don't know if you saw that one, Titus, but Trader Joe's was having some work done and they went scraping away and sanding away on the.

On the tar mastic while the store was open.

And that was shut down, I think for three weeks by the contractor cleaning the store up.

And I'm like, holy smokes.

That had to been an expensive mistake.

Yeah, imagine what that insurance claim was for that Contractor, because that was ugly.

But that was.

It was interesting news.

When I saw it, I was just like.

It was just a gut punch.

I'm like, oh, someone who didn't know what they were supposed to be doing.

Yeah.

I didn't know what to look for.

For the right people will look and go, that that's probably asbestos.

You should get it tested, I guess, if you don't absolutely know.

Yeah, you don't know if you don't know.

And that's why bringing in the right professionals to look at the job can really be key.

And.

And, Titus, what.

What do you recommend for people out there?

There's a lot of people out buying homes right now, and they're walking around and they see that, boy, the hardwood could be cool, but it's the wrong color.

If someone is going to reach out to you guys and say, when do you like to do that in the process?

To me, it makes sense to before you move in, to go have it done.

So that way you can have it cured and ready to go and you don't have to be moving furniture around.

But for those new home buyers out there looking for older homes that they want to refurbish, when do you recommend that to be done?

As far as the wood floors go.

Yeah.

Do you recommend they go ahead and just do that right off the bat?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, so even us as professionals, we try to be pretty efficient about it, and it's still a pretty painstaking process.

We've got HEPA filters and dustless sanding systems in place, but it's still not necessarily a nice place to be.

And moving all your furniture out, everything you have, everything that's on the wood floor, it's got to come out.

And then typically, people have to be out of the house when we're actually doing the finish coats on the worst case.

So I definitely recommend, if you.

If you're purchasing a new home and you're thinking about doing the hardwood, it's much better to bite the bullet and do it now before you move in, and you'll be done so well, you're.

Not spending the week out at the coast or doing something, going on vacation while it's done, because you can't really be hanging around there.

Yeah, yeah.

People can be around, at least for the sanding portion.

We've got the dustless part down to a science.

The guys aren't wearing masks when they're sanding the floor anymore.

But when it comes to these finish coats, I would say the majority of the finish that we put down is that Swedish finish that Kelly mentioned earlier.

It's some pretty stinky stuff.

The stuff, the fumes in the air are pretty substantial.

We're wearing full face respirators.

Our noses are burning, our eyes are burning.

It's nasty stuff, but it cures pretty quickly.

So usually people got to be out of the house for two nights is what we tell them.

And usually they'll go off to the coast or wherever that is for those two days.

And they can usually be back in the house as soon as that, that next day after we put that final coat down.

Because it's.

Because it's a conversion varnish, kind of like an epoxy, it cures very, very, very quickly.

And so if you can avoid doing it while living there or you have the opportunity to do it before you move in, that's the time to do it for sure.

Amen.

All right, guys, we're running out of time.

It goes so quick.

What is the best way if someone's out there going, man, I'm in the Portland area and holy smokes, I gotta get Treadline out to my house.

How do they find you guys?

The best place to find us is probably on Google.

If you Google Treadline, hardwood comes right up.

We actually got a just finished building our new website.

So there's tons of good information, educational information on there about what things to expect, what to look for, just good resource.

Or you can reach out to us at 503-85-530 and get a hold of the office and likely you'll talk to me.

Nice guys, thanks for taking the time today.

And you guys out there in the Portland area and nationally across, there's always going to be somebody good in your area, whether you're down in Florida or New York or any one of our places out there.

Find your local experts in Portland.

These are mine, but you're going to have some around there that, that really know what they're doing, what works great for your climate.

So search out those people out there if you're looking to get your floors done.

But trust me, redline, you guys always do beautiful work out there and appreciate you guys taking the time today.

Yeah, thank you.

Thanks for having us.

All right, guys, I'm Eric G. You've been listening to around the House.

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