All aboard for some harrowing tales from the early days of Covid. Gordon Ho, a marketing whiz and crisis communication pro, shares stories of critical decisions made during a time of utter crisis. When the Diamond Princess cruise ship was stuck in Yokohoma Japan during one of the earliest outbreaks of COVID 19, thousands of passengers and crew were quarantined and information changed hourly. We start the voyage with some air travel, covering Boeing recent door-busting crisis. But don’t worry, John and Brian keep things light, covering Gordon’s career highlights, like scouting out a chocolate program and getting a generation of kids hooked on disappearing Disney classics. Brian seeks an oracle for a future Hopelessly Unattainable Guest.

Key topics & chapter markers 

(00:27): Reviewing Boeing’s current crisis

(03:12): Snap Decision: Did Boeing handle it OK…and how soon is too soon?

(06:32): Lightning Round: which corporate PR crisis was a better nightmare scenario?

(09:06): Meet Gordon Ho

(16:44): Terror at sea: early Covid strikes the Diamond Princess cruise ship

(39:42): Before Covid…the greatest job in the world

(47:28): Growing a market through scarcity at Disney

(51:49): Dear Hopelessly Unattainable Guest

Background content

What's going on with Boeing planes? - Mashable

Chronology of COVID-19 Cases on the Diamond Princess Cruise Ship and Ethical Considerations: A Report From Japan - National Library of Medicine

27 Days in Tokyo Bay - Wired

Jan Swartz: Steering Princess Cruises Through the COVID-19 Crisis - Harvard Business Review (for purchase)

www.xpertainment.com - Gordon Ho's website

Connect with Brian and John on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianmarks13/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-l-young/

Well, good morning, Brian.

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Morning, John.

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How are you?

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I am, the sun is shining, the

birds are singing, and I am happy.

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I like to hear that.

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I like to hear that.

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It's beautiful out.

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Yes.

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The weather is beautiful.

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And, I think it sets the stage

nicely for talking about,

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things going wrong and crisis.

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Oh gosh.

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The theme of today's episode.

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Yikes.

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How's that for a kickoff?

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Yeah.

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Let's get into it.

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Let's do it.

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All right.

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I don't think there's a bigger

corporate crisis we could talk

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about right now, more than Boeing.

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Correct..

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Yeah.

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So obviously no stranger to, um,

crisis the last couple of years.

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It really came to a head in January.

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When one of their planes with Alaska

airlines, a Boeing max nine was forced

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to make an emergency landing after a door

plug fell off a few minutes after takeoff.

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And the images of that were just shocking.

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Shocking.

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And everywhere.

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Yeah, that's the thing with video is

that, uh, you know, if that didn't

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have the accompanying video, uh,

it wouldn't probably be anywhere

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near as much noise as it is.

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So that incident, sent shockwaves

to millions of travelers.

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sent off a ton of red flags with

regulators and, and their partners.

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And,, Boeing's trust has

probably never been lower than

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it is right now with the public.

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Like I mentioned this is far from

the first issue with a Boeing max

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plane in the last few years, in 2018

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uh, 346 people died in plane crashes.

41

So there's been a lot of, attention

on Boeing, to fix a lot of issues

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with their planes and this latest

incident in January, is not making

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this go away for them . After their,

planes were grounded by the FAA.

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they found the door plug was missing

four bolts that fell off and a number

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of other planes, were showing that

bolts were loosened and, not tightened.

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And, so they've been going

through an auditing and inspection

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process with all their planes.

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And then, you know, more recently in

March, there's been some significant

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executive changes there as well.

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One of the things that they've been

trying to do is present a series of

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steps to provide transparency and,

and, and show that they're taking

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some accountability as a company.

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Mm-Hmm.

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, on their website specifically, you

know, they're pushing people to a,

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a microsite section that, Has all

the information on the incident.

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There's a four minute video of their

ceo addressing employees at a team town

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hall about the importance of safety,

importance of getting this moment, right?

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And how they'll handle it as a company.

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and they also have a detailed timeline

of statements and media clips responding

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to reports, action plans and other

relevant news surrounding this crisis.

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. So they're trying to, to get out there

and take accountability for the situation.

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and not shy away from the public.

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But, as we all know, it's, an

extremely long road for a company

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like that, if they can ever gain back

trust, especially in a situation where

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people's lives are at stake and, people

have died as a result of their actions

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and, there's been a lot of safety

concerns the last few years in general,

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and this certainly doesn't help that.

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So John, my question and snap decision for

you, or, you know, what are your thoughts

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on how Boeing has handled this situation?

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And what is the mindset that needs to

be instilled in communication teams

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and marketers in situations like these?

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If you're working for that

company and you're a marketer or a

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communications person, when is the,

the, when's the timing right to

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get back to promoting your company?

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Well, that last part's tricky.

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The first part about how Boeing

handled it, I think they've

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done some things really well.

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Yeah, I think it was great.

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Like you mentioned that they

released an internal video, you know,

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things the CEO is saying to the

employee base right after the accident.

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I think that's, that's great.

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kind of shows a little

bit of transparency.

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Yes, they took some accountability.

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I don't feel like they announced a

whole lot of concrete steps, like

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things that they're going to do.

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And they talked about, you know,

how safety needs to become a greater

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priority, but I don't think they

really outlined an action plan quickly.

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good that the CEO, , has stepped down,

That's, I think an important step to

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indicate that you're going to change

the culture of the company, because

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frankly, in the wake of this most recent

thing, there's been an increasing, bit

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of, volume around the idea that perhaps

Boeing has sacrificed safety over

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share price for a bunch of years now.

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Ironic, because the share price for

the past five years has declined.

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Not done particularly well, so it

hasn't worked, but, you know, the

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CEO and the CEO before him, I believe

focused on cost cutting hasn't

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really led to, great stock results.

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And at the same time, it seems

like safety's taken a big hit.

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So, yeah, they had to make that big change

in terms of when it's good to get back.

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Look, the trust is huge and

it's hard to measure that.

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I know there are.

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Trust indices out there.

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I think there are a few

things that have to happen.

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One, you need to have some very

clear,, steps that you've communicated.

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I think you need to start

to see those steps be.

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Reflected back to you where other

people are repeating the steps

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that you're taking to fix things.

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so obviously there's, you know, the

standard social media monitoring.

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You do the PR monitoring.

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1 thing that struck me was,

have you seen the kayak?

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The travel site and app

they had previously had.

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filter where you could look

at your flights and you could

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filter out types of aircraft.

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Like if you don't want to fly a,

uh, an Airbus or a, a 737 Max, you

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could, you could select those out.

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They've moved that up.

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Since they moved that up

higher in the navigation.

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So have you seen that tool?

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No, I have not.

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It's pretty wild.

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So that will be an indicator to me,

like over time, if fewer people are

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opting out of flying your plane that

had an incident, maybe that shows that

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people have either kind of, you know,

regained some trust or forgotten.

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Frankly, that happens all the time, right?

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People forget stuff.

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Yeah.

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So I think that's, those are the kinds of

things they've got to pay attention to.

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They've got to see that the public is

starting to show indicators of buying

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into whatever the very specific and

transparent plan they've put out there is.

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Yeah.

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It's a, it's going to be a long road.

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I did see in the news, recently

that, their defense system that they

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were partnering with Israel on, uh,

helped defend against the attack

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from Iran, which, it doesn't support

the commercial airline business,

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but it does, put some good news in

Boeing's hands for the land itself,.

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So, that is probably something that

would make sense to promote, but not,

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not be a direct hit on the commercial

airline business, which would You

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know, clearly they're nowhere near

ready to, you know, be talking about

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good things that they're doing.

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I was looking at a bunch of corporate

crises, you know, PR issues,

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over the past 20 years or so.

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and it is interesting how quickly

I've forgotten some of them.

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Yeah.

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Uh, I have a, I have a, uh, snap

decision lightning round for you.

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All right.

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All right.

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So the question to you, Brian,

is which of these two PR crises.

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Would you have preferred to handle?

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They're all PR nightmares.

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Okay.

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I'm gonna start with a couple

that kind of unfolded on YouTube.

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One, the Comcast technician who

fell asleep on a customer's couch

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while waiting on hold for his own

company to answer his phone call.

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Or the Domino's pizza scandal in

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a very disturbing video of them

tampering with a customer's food.

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So which of those, which of those would

have been a bigger nightmare to handle?

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I think I'm going with the

Comcast on the couch guy.

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Yeah.

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I don't want to be thinking about

what happened with the pizza dough

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while I'm eating the product.

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So wait, you'd rather handle

the Comcast ignition guy?

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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You'd rather handle that one.

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Okay.

165

Yeah.

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Which one would you rather

handle between these two?

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The BP oil spill in 2010, following the

Deepwater Horizon oil rig, uh, explosion.

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Yeah.

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or the Volkswagen diesel gate emissions

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having cheat software in its, in its

cars, that led to a really big recall

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and 4 billion in penalties eventually.

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Which would you have rather handled?

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I think I'd rather handle the VW one.

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the oil one.

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Yeah.

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I mean, that was just, you remember

like the oil wouldn't stop for like.

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I didn't fully remember.

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I knew it was a while, but it poured

in for three months to your point.

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I mean, there was just like,

there was no stopping it.

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And the amount of damage that did to

the planet is probably so significant.

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We can't even think about it, but I

would not want to be in or near that one.

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Yeah, and 11 people died,

which I didn't remember that.

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Oh, I didn't remember that.

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Yeah, 11 people died.

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and yeah, the, the, just the images coming

out of that just didn't stop for a while.

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So yeah, I, I'm with you on that one.

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all right.

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Would you have rather handled the Samsung

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where phones just kept catching fire or

when United Airlines overbooked a flight

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and called her in a security guard to

drag an elderly doctor off the plane?

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Ooh.

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I would probably choose the,

the airlines scandal because.

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It's mostly a singular incident,

whereas the phone's blowing

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up could affect more people.

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I mean, there's no, there's no Yeah, okay.

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, pick the less, more terrible one.

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Exactly.

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Alright, well, speaking of that,

all of them, in my mind, pale

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to a PR crisis that faced, , the

guest we're going to turn to now.

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Oh, can't wait.

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ALL: Alright, so Brian, I am really

happy to introduce an old friend,

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a guy I met when we were serving

on a nonprofit board together,

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John: Gordon Ho.

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Today, he is CEO of a strategy

consulting firm, Expertainment, and he

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also serves as an adjunct professor at

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both Georgetown and USC, where

he teaches marketing, crisis

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strategy, and product management.

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We're going to talk to him about

that crisis strategy piece a bit.

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he's worked at and advised

for several tech startups.

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He's also worked for some really big

brands, Disney and Princess Cruises.

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At Disney Studios, he oversaw the

3 billion, billion with a B, direct

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to video category, including digital

and DVD slash Blu ray business.

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As well as Disney's movie

rewards loyalty program.

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More recently, he was CMO and head of

sales at Princess Cruises, where he

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launched the Discovery at Sea partnership,

and the Ocean Medallion launch, which

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was considered the number one travel

Internet of Things wearable device.

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And the reason we want to talk to him

today is he was responsible for one

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of the most challenging, corporate

communications issues I can imagine

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during the Diamond Princess COVID crisis.,

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Gordon's on the board of, the Coalition

of Asian Pacifics and Entertainment

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and, on the board of the Ronald

McDonald House of Southern California.

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He is super smart, he's really

fun, and he is, Brian, one of the

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nicest people you'll ever meet.

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Please say hi to Gordon Ho

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.

ALL: Well, thank you, John, for that intro.

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I'm flattered and happy to be here.

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Well, we are thrilled you're here.

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Sorry, it was a little long, but you've

got a, you've got a long resume, pal.

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so Brian, I've been talking about, um,

corporate crises and how marketers and

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communicators can prepare themselves

and respond when something goes wrong.

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, in particular, we were talking about

how Boeing, , has been facing an

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awful lot of struggles recently.

233

There've been, some people have

kind of congratulated them for the

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way they've handled the crisis.

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Others have come out really

strongly against them.

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How would you suggest Boeing respond

to recent events, or how they should

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respond to what's been going on with them?

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Yeah, it's, it's interesting.

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I think you have to go back in

history a little bit on Boeing

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because, you know, this, this all

stemmed from a lot of culture.

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I think has been a big part of it, right?

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You had Boeing, which was very engineering

technology, arguably safety focus.

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But then with the 1997 merger

with McDonnell Douglas.

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That changed, right?

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Cause you had a lot of executives

at McDonnell Douglas who

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applied and nothing wrong.

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I mean the shareholder return

affordability, but those

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principles took over the

engineering first type of culture.

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And I think you hear when you

talk to a lot of people at Boeing

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people in engineering, There is

this sense that, hey, I'm afraid

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to speak up because of retaliation.

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And you also had this

symbolic thing, right?

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You had Boeing move their

headquarters to Chicago away from

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Seattle where the engineers were.

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So that's a sentiment of like,

okay, what are you prioritizing?

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And of course, the big thing

that happened in 18 and 19

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were the two 737 MAX 8 crashes.

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And one could arguably, they prioritized

profits over safety because they

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did not tell people about the new

features that were on the plane.

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They said, Hey, this is

just like the other 737 Max.

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Just a few things that you

don't have to worry about.

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Well, the fact is you had to

worry about it and they didn't.

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And one of the things they set

forth was that there is no new

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simulator training that is needed.

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And that drove a lot of what they,

I guess narrow minded focus, which

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of course led to pilots maybe not

being exposed to the training and

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features that they should have been.

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In this case, where you have this, door

plug blowout, one could, I think they're

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still looking at it, but I think the

fact is there could be some of the same

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thing, which is, In a focus to get out

and catch up maybe from some of the

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lost sails as a result of what happened

in '18-19', they may have prioritized

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schedules and delivery of, jets and planes

over the prioritization of safety checks.

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And the report from the FAA just came

out that seemed to say, hey, look at,

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and this was the, this was the study

that started in 20 as a result of the

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plane crashes, and they concluded.

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Number one, there is still this fear

of retaliation, if you speak up.

277

Number two, the safety procedures

change so frequently, it's

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hard for the people to keep up,

279

so I think there's the conclusion that

Boeing has a lot of work to do still,

280

and hopefully they're on that mend.

281

To your question about what they've

done to date, the fact that Calhoun,

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the CEO resigned, I think was an

important symbolic gesture that

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you have new management coming in.

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If you remember Calhoun was the chairman

of the board when the two plane crashes

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and all the fatalities happened.

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So that was a lot of people

say, wait a minute, that seems

287

like a continuity of management.

288

But now of course he's gone.

289

So I think a lot of the continuity

that happened in 18, 19, at least

290

symbolically with Calhoun leaving.

291

That is maybe a change in direction.

292

Let's hope.

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and we'll see what,

what else they recover.

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and it's hard because you

have a duopoly, right?

295

With Boeing and Airbus.

296

And so when Airbus says, Hey, we have a

new lighter, faster fuel efficient plane.

297

There is this huge pressure

for Boeing to react.

298

That's what happened with

the Boeing seven 37 max.

299

And it seems like maybe just maybe that.

300

They went too fast, and you're

seeing this ongoing repercussions.

301

Yeah, I think the thing that struck

me, in looking at some of the, some

302

of the reporting was exactly one of

the things you highlighted, this idea

303

that, When they came out with that

new plane, there was a pretty strong

304

insistence from Boeing that pilots didn't

need to turn themselves with a new,

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a new system and do that simulation.

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And, and, and that's the one that

really struck me is like, it seemed

307

like they were trying to just.

308

Sell units and, really not

focused on the safety piece.

309

So that's struck out and John, and

John specifically to build on that

310

there, one of the biggest customers

was Southwest airlines Southwest said,

311

look it, we don't want our pilots to

have to go through simulator training.

312

So to make that sale,

they committed to it.

313

So that was a customer commitment.

314

And they actually said, if you require

additional training, we will pay you.

315

I think it was a million

dollars per plane.

316

So that was the discussion

throughout Boeing.

317

We are not going to pay that.

318

There is no training even, and that's,

and that, that what's happened in

319

blinds you, because that becomes the

edict, that's governing your decisions.

320

So, so how do you, as a marketer

or, , a communications person, how

321

do you handle yourself in a situation

like that and, and how do you make a

322

recommendations to leadership teams

that clearly have made mistakes?

323

If you don't have a culture of

allowing people to speak up, having

324

management that's supportive, right?

325

Instead of managers saying,

you're making me look bad.

326

How does it that when you complain,

the manager says you're making me look

327

good because you're one of the people

that identified something that's hard.

328

And so I think culture is a huge

part of what has to, and that

329

takes time and that's set forth

by management, their actions.

330

Right.

331

And I think that's what has to happen.

332

Yeah.

333

That culture piece is huge and it is hard.

334

Cause even public company or not, just,

you know, a lot of times the CEO is

335

getting a fairly whitewashed version

of what's happening in an organization.

336

People, even if the culture

is somewhat open to it.

337

People are pretty resistant to give the,

the top person, uh, bad news sometimes.

338

And then, and then you maybe say,

okay, well, maybe the, maybe you

339

have a chief risk officer or whatever

that reports right into the board.

340

Maybe co reports into the board and

CEO so that there's an independent

341

board director who can actually have

these comfortable conversations, right?

342

Separate from the CEO, right?

343

There's all sorts of things that you can

try to do to try to quote unquote, protect

344

the The team that is bringing up issues.

345

Yeah, it has to be real, right?

346

Yeah.

347

So this is where you have more

and more companies setting up a

348

separate risk committee on their

board to deal with these issues and

349

to have them directly responsible.

350

Chief risk officer is duly reporting

or directly reporting into them.

351

There's a number of things that

you can do to try to make it

352

easier to have things come out.

353

All right, Gordon, can you take

us through the crisis that you and

354

princess cruises faced back in February

355

princess cruise ship was stuck in, I

believe Yokohama, Japan with thousands

356

of passengers and crew quarantined due

to a very early outbreak of COVID 19.

357

Right.

358

can you kind of take us through that?

359

Yeah.

360

And then obviously it's, there's a,

there's many elements to it, but let

361

me at least set up the framework for

the, the listeners, which is, you

362

know, on January 20th, our diamond

princess ship was leaving for a cruise

363

from Japan or Yokohama, a passenger

from Hong Kong boarded the ship

364

with everybody else on January 20th.

365

They then got off the ship

on January 25th in Hong Kong.

366

And didn't come back on the ship.

367

And then we found out on February

1st, that that passenger who

368

just embarked tested positive.

369

We then immediately notified

the Japanese ministry of health.

370

And we rushed back to Japan and we

proceeded to test a sample of passengers

371

and unfortunately, 10 tested positive

that then led to the decision by

372

the Japanese Ministry of Health.

373

We're going to have you in quarantine.

374

So the decision was made is that

our ship in the past, all the

375

passengers, guests and crew would

be put in quarantine for two weeks,

376

which was the understood duration,

if you will, of coronavirus or COVID.

377

And that was the crisis.

378

Suddenly we are trying to manage

the logistics, communications,

379

?

And ultimately partnering with all Japanese Ministry of Health and

380

other health organizations to get

through this quarantine, right?

381

Our cruise ship is made for vacations.

382

It's not necessarily

designed for quarantine.

383

And so think about the elements

that we had to suddenly figure out.

384

And you had to do it in

a very, very public way.

385

You were the center of the storm in

terms of media coverage for, Oh yeah,

386

you're, you're absolutely right.

387

We were the front page headline

news for, for a long time.

388

And part of it is because if you think

about all the people on the ship, we had

389

Americans, Canadians, Australians, right?

390

We had people from,

Many, many nationalities.

391

And for, unfortunately for those

countries, that was the first time

392

that someone from their country

was known to have coronavirus.

393

So in terms of Americans, we had

several hundred Americans, right?

394

And this, or when this started,

there was no known cases of

395

Corona virus or COVID in America.

396

Now it is since been proven

that there were cases we

397

just didn't know at the time.

398

So suddenly cruising became front and

center for Corona virus and princess

399

cruises and our diamond princess ship

was the pinnacle of the press coverage.

400

And of course, as you know, from a

communications PR standpoint, the media.

401

You know, and I, and I, as part

of my teaching, I tell the class,

402

look at for good or for bad, the

media is compensated by flicks.

403

They're trying to write

click bait headlines.

404

What click bait headline is

going to get more clicks, right?

405

Something like disaster and sickness

at sea, or Princess Cruises doing a

406

pretty good job of managing the crisis.

407

Which, which one's gonna get more clicks?

408

I don't oversee that headline.

409

Yeah, but you had, you had, you

had so many different, headlines.

410

And that's because that's

what got the clicks.

411

And so there's no way you could have

done it where everyone would have been.

412

Oh, great job.

413

Cause no one knew what

the hell was going on.

414

No, I think that was part of the thing.

415

One of the, so when you think about a,

we were probably more prepared than,

416

than most, Because number one in, in,

in the crisis management course, that

417

we have at USC that I teach the first

thing and Ninety percent of crisis

418

management is the preparation, right?

419

So the three-part framework is

prepare, manage and recover.

420

So, and a lot of people jump

to the manage, but you, your

421

ability to manage really is, is

tied to how well you prepare.

422

So, for example, we have designated

crisis teams pre-assigned People

423

know who is accountable for

what we do drills quarterly.

424

Okay.

425

So we, and we even drill for an outbreak.

426

I mean, now we didn't anticipate

coronavirus, but we've drilled

427

for things that like a norovirus,

which is a stomach type flu.

428

We do practice for that.

429

We practice for hurricanes.

430

We practice for anything,

a mechanical malfunction.

431

All right.

432

So that's something

433

.

And then we monitor, we knew about coronavirus because

434

we have offices in Japan.

435

We have offices in Shanghai, Taiwan.

436

And all of them were telling

us, Hey, this is a big deal.

437

So we were on high alert already.,

and when this hit, we stood

438

up the teams, right, we, we,

we stood up a team in Japan.

439

We stood up a team in our

headquarters in Santa Clarita.

440

We actually flew out our, one

of our senior executives who ran

441

international Tony Kaufman to

fly out to Japan, to oversee.

442

The crisis management efforts in market.

443

And of course we had a

crisis team on the ship.

444

The captain of course is

in charge of the ship.

445

And then of course we had

various leaders in Santa Clarita

446

managing various components.

447

And so I would say that this was

kind of a multifunction management

448

of which you could break it

down to maybe three key things.

449

One, well, the first thing

is just the priority.

450

The priority was pretty easy.

451

The safety and health

of everybody on board.

452

Every decision that was made was made

with that principle in mind, which

453

made it easier because if somebody

at a different, at various levels of

454

the company, if they had to make a

decision, they made a decision that this

455

is going to make things safer, right?

456

Or more comfortable for

our crew or passengers.

457

And that allows you to make decisions.

458

Sorry to interrupt you Gordon.

459

Can you give us a quick example of one of

those decisions that took place that where

460

you kind of had to weigh the trade off.

461

, of.

462

This versus that Right right off the

bat, you know, we knew hey these a lot

463

of these people have prescriptions.

464

Think about it How much medicine

do you bring on a vacation?

465

Enough for the vacation, right?

466

What happens if you have to

spend two more weeks unplanned

467

on your vacation in quarantine?

468

You're going to run out of medicine.

469

So immediately the teams that local

doctor says, Hey, we have an issue here.

470

We're going to have to start coordinating

with the Japanese ministry of health.

471

All of these medications, which are

in different languages, think about

472

the logistics of that guys, right?

473

You got all these prescriptions

and different languages in dosages

474

that may be metric or non metric.

475

And you have the Japanese, working

with the Japanese Ministry of Health to

476

figure those medicines out in Japanese,

figure out the right dosage, convert

477

it, get the medicines it was quite

the logistical complex effort, but the

478

teams rose to the occasion, but that's

example that you just have to do it,

479

another example is the fact that we

didn't know a lot about the disease.

480

So all of us stepped up to try to

figure out, okay, what do we know?

481

How can we learn more?

482

For example, in my case, I

actually, this is my wife.

483

My wife reminded me, Gordon,

don't, don't remember.

484

There's a gentleman who

is a friend of ours.

485

Didn't he work with the WHO?

486

So we called him up and sure

enough, he put me in touch with the

487

director of communications at the

WHO, the world health organization.

488

So I gave her a call and

I'm on the phone with her.

489

Next thing she knows, she puts me

on the phone with the director.

490

of immunology who's overseeing

the WHO's efforts on coronavirus.

491

So then I proceed to get our chief

medical officer on the phone, right?

492

Because this is above my pay grade, trying

to discuss, like, solutions for the virus.

493

But she is literally telling us in real

time what the WHO knows about the virus.

494

For example, that hand

gel kills the virus.

495

I don't know if you know this, but hand

gel or alcohol does not kill norovirus.

496

It's useless.

497

But it works against coronavirus.

498

So these are new things we're

learning real time, right?

499

From the director at the

WHO about things to do.

500

So you literally have to step

up and figure, who do we know?

501

Who can help us out?

502

And I'll give you another

example is your customers.

503

You might think, okay, in a crisis,

you're trying to manage the story, right?

504

A lot of people talk about, oh,

we got to control the narrative.

505

It's really hard to control a narrative

when every single person on that

506

ship has a smartphone documenting any

announcement, any piece of communication.

507

And you know what they're doing?

508

You know what's happening to them?

509

CNN, CNBC, Fox News, ABC, whenever

they see a tweet, Or Facebook posts

510

from any of our passengers they reach

out to them say hey, this is CNN

511

We'd like to talk to you in an hour.

512

Are you available?

513

And they're doing literally live

interviews from the ship The idea that

514

you can manage the narrative when you

have real time interviews with the

515

people on board, not going to happen.

516

So it's better instead

to solve the problem.

517

In today's modern crisis management,

it's not about, certainly you

518

don't ignore the narrative.

519

focus is solve the problem.

520

Like you said, You know, your number one

thing is to try to keep everybody safe.

521

That's there.

522

And if you, if you do things

that help in that direction,

523

then the narrative will be right.

524

,

Brian, you bring up to build on that, right?

525

Because does the media want to

hear what princess is doing?

526

That's good.

527

Yeah, I'll take it.

528

But for more often than not, they want to

know sensationalistic what's going wrong.

529

Right.

530

Cause that's just more clickbait.

531

Unfortunately, I hate to say it.

532

Mayhem is just more riveting

for viewers for whatever reason.

533

It's terrible, but it's true.

534

So if we can't get our perspective

out Because they're more focused on

535

certain sensationalistic elements.

536

By treating and solving the problem,

you let your guests tell the story.

537

So I'll give you an example.

538

During these interviews, a common question

would be, Hey John and Brian, you're never

539

going to go on a cruise again, are you?

540

9 said, we're already booked

on our next princess cruise.

541

Wow.

542

Really?

543

And then they'll say

while they're quarantined.

544

While they're in quarantine.

545

While they're quarantined.

546

That's amazing.

547

Right?

548

And part of it is because we gave

them all a free cruise pretty early.

549

We said, we're so sorry this is happening.

550

We're going to reimburse

you for what you paid.

551

And we're going to give you an equal

amount to try a future cruise with us.

552

They had nothing but time, so

they were all booking cruises

553

using the credit we gave them.

554

I'll give you another example.

555

One of the couples that were on

the ship was on a honeymoon and

556

they were very prolific on digital.

557

They, they had Reddit has

something called ask me anything.

558

AMA their AMA was the world's

most popular AMA of all time.

559

It's now number two because they

were doing real time AMA is here's

560

what it's like to be on this ship.

561

All right.

562

They were young.

563

They were a honeymoon couple.

564

So it was very interesting, right?

565

Oh my goodness.

566

We're so sorry.

567

And they happened to be

medical professionals as well.

568

One of them was, I reached out to

them, got ahold of them on Reddit

569

and said, I'm here to help you.

570

Let me know what things you need

or, and they happen to be very

571

connected to the people on the ship.

572

And they would tell me and the rest of

the princess team, Hey, cabin number,

573

you know, four 22 could use some of

this and they would provide feedback.

574

And so we had this real time

communication loop, which

575

enabled us to be more responsive.

576

And so when they then did an interview

with CNN or Fox news, whatever they would

577

say, and we're, you know, we're working

with, you know, princess executives.

578

Right to try to provide as much and so it

was partnership So a lot of times people

579

forget the people in the crisis can be

a partner with you most people want to

580

do well, they don't want their fellow

passengers suffering You know, beyond the

581

self interest, we're, we're, we care most,

you know, most people are very caring.

582

They want to, we're, most

people want to help others out.

583

Yeah.

584

So that's another example.

585

That's fascinating.

586

I mean, just the, you know, you go on

with the mindset that anything that you

587

communicate to somebody on the cruise

ship, that's going to get out in the media

588

yeah.

589

. So then the question is.

590

You want to make sure what you issue,

you know, okay, this is like going

591

to get out into the press So let's be

careful about it, but you have to do it

592

quickly So another recommendation for

anybody going through a crisis is you

593

need to stand up communication teams to

write content Whether it's press release

594

media release stuff for your website.

595

We were recording Videos every day

because we had a video from the chief

596

medical officer, video from the chief

experience officer talking about

597

how we're trying to make them more

comfortable videos from our CEO, right?

598

We, we, we got people who didn't

necessarily do this for princess.

599

We then onboarded them and say,

Hey, we know you're a good writer.

600

Could you help us write this stuff?

601

We needed people around the world.

602

Think about social media.

603

We had to monitor social media boards

around the world in local languages.

604

But ultimately that content was key.

605

And the other thing I would

say is you need to have an

606

approval process that is quick.

607

So we would say like, okay, this

is going out noon every day.

608

We will have a draft up by 1130.

609

Everybody get on this shared site

and provide shared comments so we can

610

see it all and it will be approved.

611

At noon, you have the set schedule, right?

612

And everybody knows, all the way up

to the CEO, you have access, take

613

a look, otherwise it's going out.

614

Yeah, I was going to ask you about that,

because, you know, even in the best of

615

times, getting everybody to agree on

what something should be, uh, can be

616

difficult, but the fact that you don't

even know all the information you need

617

to know, and you have to constantly

communicate things, knowing that it,

618

it probably did change, constantly,

but being able to enable and activate.

619

That type of ongoing communication

is it's so key because, you know,

620

we've all been in situations where

you just can't get the message out

621

I think that's key

getting the facts was key.

622

And this is where establishing clear

communication with the Japanese

623

ministry of health was coordinating

the testing to make sure what is

624

the accurate number of people that

have been tested positive, right?

625

How many people have they been

transported off the ship, all this stuff.

626

This is real time information that

we tried to convey to the guests.

627

And this is where you can

have version creep, right?

628

With the, it's very possible, right?

629

Who has the right data.

630

And so you have to validate the data.

631

And once you confirm it, we put

it up on the website under a new

632

area called notices and advisories.

633

So that was our Bible.

634

And so when social media, when our

team on social media posted something,

635

they would always refer back.

636

To the notice it is my

notices and advisories page.

637

So we would always know we were going

back to our single source of truth.

638

That's an important thing that every

crisis team should think about.

639

Where is our single source of truth?

640

Let's make sure everybody internally

and externally refers to it.

641

And that way you won't have version creep

because that's going to make you look

642

bad when someone interviews you and says,

wait a minute, you've reported 22 people

643

were impacted and this thing says 32.

644

What is it?

645

Seems like you don't know what's going on.

646

Just makes you look bad.

647

Those two things you just mentioned

that that kind of single source of truth

648

and the daily publishing schedule were

those things that you had, from all of

649

your preparation were those in place or

were some of those real time decisions

650

you had to kind of put into place?

651

Yeah.

652

Yeah.

653

Yeah, certainly the idea of, common

goal so we can make decisions, but I do

654

think this rapid communication to the

passengers, I think maybe that was, we've

655

had done versions of it, but not to the

refinement that we had to and standing

656

up all these content teams and all this

stuff, because there was an, the amount

657

of communication we had to try to get

out because we had so many stakeholders.

658

Think about every embassy

reaching out to us because they

659

had citizens aboard the ship.

660

Think about that.

661

Then the other thing would be

regarding the notices and advisories.

662

Yes, that was a new section of

our website that we stood up.

663

I mean, we've had versions of this, but

to have to do this like couple times

664

every day with new information, you

know, I think that became a lifesaver

665

that we set up this whole thing so

that we wouldn't have version creep.

666

So we've had versions of it, but maybe

not to the extent that we had to create

667

for this And were you, were you grounding

other ships at that time or were they

668

still No, that's a good question.

669

So at the time we took

additional precautions.

670

So one of the things that we did is as

we were getting real time learning, we

671

were passing it on to the fleet, not

just the fleet, but the whole industry.

672

We actually wrote up certain best

practices, shared it with the industry

673

organization because we don't want to

compete on health and emergencies, right?

674

That's not good for the industry.

675

Right.

676

Right.

677

So for example, the prescriptions,

you know, we said, Hey guys, here's

678

a tip that you should tell all your

passengers bring extra medication.

679

. We shared that freely through the industry

channels to all the other cruise lines.

680

We did ground our fleet, a month later.

681

We were the first cruise line

to decide, you know what?

682

We're going to ground our whole fleet.

683

Then I think it was a day later, the

CDC shut down the rest of the industry.

684

Well, I'm sure you had a, even before

they became grounded or docked or

685

whatever the C term of that is.

686

I I'm sure you were getting flooded

with customer service questions

687

about whether the thing was even

going to happen or not, right?

688

Like you guys were, there was lift.

689

Yeah, there is.

690

There's definitely

questions about like, okay.

691

Cause like for diamond princess, we

had people who were booked on the

692

next cruise and the next cruise, and

we have to tell them, Hey guys, we're

693

not sailing, we're in a quarantine.

694

.

Certainly that had to be managed.

695

And I would, you know, another element

of the crisis that I'll share with you.

696

Well, well, even fresh air breaks, right?

697

You had people who are on a

cruise ship who maybe didn't

698

have balconies or windows.

699

So we had to coordinate, how

do we get them out logistically

700

to get out to fresh air?

701

I mean, even that is an impromptu

thing that we had to manage.

702

Like how can they do it?

703

How far away should they be

walking between each other?

704

Right.

705

Getting guidance from the Japanese

ministry of health, WHO and all those

706

partners, so I think we managed it so

well, but then the, you may have heard the

707

state department decided we are going to

send a military aircraft to pick up all

708

the Americans off the ship, because we

just think as a matter of precaution, it's

709

better if they serve a new quarantine.

710

In military bases on land in the U.

711

S.

712

So suddenly these passengers

were I think it was day 12.

713

They thought they're almost done

They're told the americans are

714

going to the military going to

pick them up Bring them to the u.

715

s to military bases in california

and texas nebraska And they're

716

going to need to serve an additional

two weeks of quarantine now.

717

They don't have to go It was

recommended that they go.

718

Yeah, most went several of those stayed

on the ship They said no, I don't want

719

to go But most went on the plane and

then they flew to these military bases.

720

So here's a question, John and Brian,

what is princesses cruises obligation to

721

those passengers who have now been taken

off the ship and flown to military bases?

722

You'd think it'd be over.

723

You'd think it'd be over, right?

724

When you fly on a flight, let's say

you fly to New York city, John, let's

725

say I'm going to visit you in Philly.

726

I take, let's say American

airlines, get off the plane.

727

I'm in the airport in Philly.

728

Is American Airlines

still accountable for me?

729

No way!

730

If I trip and fall in the airport, it's

not American Airlines fault, right?

731

So one could argue as soon as they left

our ship, we've, we're done with those.

732

Those are less people to

be worried about, right?

733

But when you think about it,

they haven't gotten home yet.

734

They're going to military bases and in the

memo written by the U S state department,

735

they said, we will get you to the military

bases, but it's up to you to get home.

736

Really?

737

Oh yeah.

738

That was in the memo.

739

I have to admit, I was one that noticed

that and I said to the team, I think

740

we need to stand up care teams to

work with the military to help take

741

care of our guests and get them home.

742

Wow.

743

Gordon, I'm sorry.

744

So one day you wake up and your job

is all about creating a fantastic,

745

luxurious cruise experience.

746

And the next day it's about how

to keep people alive, work with

747

state departments, militaries.

748

And, uh, World Health Organizations.

749

How did you keep it together, man?

750

Well, I think the whole

team did a remarkable job.

751

One is, you know, we had great leaders.

752

Jan Schwartz, who was running Princess

Cruises and really setting a good tone.

753

In fact, there's a Harvard

Business Case Study that talks

754

about how do you keep your cool.

755

Right?

756

Because the way you handle the

crisis, people can gather, right?

757

If you're distressed, that

echoes throughout the room.

758

If you're calm and collected and able to

make smart decisions, that also resonates.

759

So I think that's a whole nother

case that I recommend you read.

760

you know, we just, because we

had this common goal and we had,

761

everybody was supporting each other.

762

I will tell you a few people

found it too difficult.

763

They said, I need a break.

764

And we were, we understood it.

765

We're glad that they were transparent.

766

Because it was hard and, but we

did have just even fatigue, right?

767

We set up a nap, nap room nearby.

768

We brought in food every day.

769

So people were fed and we did

have different things because

770

when it was daytime in Japan, it

gave some relief for headquarters.

771

So the Japan team could manage

locally what was going on.

772

We would come in.

773

And so when the captain needed

to do a press release during

774

our time, we would write it.

775

The captain would always make an

announcement to the ship at the same time

776

Even if there was nothing to be said.

777

Yeah our job in santa clarita California

was to make sure we said here's your

778

announcement for the day or twice a day.

779

It was important to have this pattern

this sequence of regular events.

780

I think that helped us give us purpose.

781

And then we also stood up different

leaders managing different

782

components of the crisis.

783

When we decided we were going to

help the military take care of our

784

guests, I was the head of that team.

785

So I enlisted my sales team in Texas

and California to go to the military

786

bases and lend support there physically.

787

And we were on the phone.

788

We had daily calls with

the military bases.

789

I'll tell you something funny.

790

The passengers didn't know

where they were going.

791

They weren't told.

792

So we didn't know, nor did they, we

actually looked up on the internet,

793

the phone numbers of the military

bases, called them up and said,

794

Hey, you may have heard some of our

passengers are going to your base.

795

We want to help you.

796

Can we talk to your commanding officer?

797

Literally.

798

That's how we did it.

799

Wow.

800

And then they, and at first they

were skeptical, but then they said,

801

you know what, we're going to keep

your passengers safe and healthy, but

802

we're not very good at hospitality.

803

We could use your help.

804

And they agreed, and it

was a great partnership.

805

It really was a great partnership.

806

your own employees and staff on the

ship itself, , did any of them get sick?

807

Oh, yes.

808

I'm sure they're not prepared

to be able to manage.

809

People under quarantine, like,

you know, for that long, I mean,

810

I don't think anyone was prepared

the Japanese ministry of health.

811

I mean, no, one's had to do a quarantine

of this scale for decades of any.

812

And, so I'll, I'll say that

everyone, the crew was so courageous.

813

The captain called the crew, his

gladiators, because he said, look at

814

we're fighting a war and we're going

to win, and he actually said, you know,

815

diamond princess, what is a diamond?

816

And the diamond is, under pressure,

817

so he says, we're going to be a diamond.

818

We're under pressure, but we are

going to emerge as a diamond.

819

Ultimately the crew was fantastic.

820

You know, some of the crew, like I

mentioned, may have gotten stressed,

821

et cetera, it was hard for them

because they were doing all the work.

822

Think about room service, right?

823

Suddenly you have to deliver meals to

824

Think about the logistics of that.

825

Cause that's not how

meals usually are done.

826

People are eating meals in the

dining hall, on the pool deck

827

or all these different places.

828

But no, three, almost 3000 meals.

829

And then you have dietary restrictions

that you got to manage for.

830

Right.

831

So you had so many things that they

were doing, but they were amazing.

832

And ultimately the passengers

started to put notes outside

833

of their door, expressing their

appreciation for the, the, the crew.

834

And we actually took that as a sign

that says, Hey, we're going to To spread

835

the happiness, we created a hashtag,

hang in there, diamond princess.

836

And there was then a global movement

of support where people were

837

creating content, music, songs,

et cetera, for people to see.

838

So the crew understood how the world was

really appreciative of the hardships and

839

the courage that they were exhibiting.

840

Really is amazing.

841

And so much to learn from this.

842

I'll tell you the thing that's really

hitting me is in the face of constantly

843

changing information and misinformation

and chaos that you are, you were able to

844

create some predictability and routine.

845

Seems like it did an awful lot

to get through that crisis.

846

So cheers to you and cheers to your wife

for being smart enough to, Remind you

847

of your personal connection to someone

at the World Health Organization.

848

You want to hear from everybody.

849

What ideas do we have?

850

And I think that a leader in a crisis

needs to assimilate all the information.

851

And, but they have to make

that courageous decision.

852

That courageous decision may not be,

for example, what your legal team

853

advises you, I mean, I mean, this

is where I'm not telling you to break

854

the law, but obviously the business

affairs team may say, Hey, to reduce our

855

liability, maybe we shouldn't do this,

but sometimes you may say, wait, wait,

856

this is going to help solve the problem.

857

We need to do this, so those are tough.

858

Those are tough decisions that.

859

And a leader needs to

have the courage to make.

860

, Gordon, I remember years ago, and I think

the last time I saw you pre COVID, , it

861

sounded like you had the greatest job in

the world, you know, traveling all over

862

to build food programs with celebrity

chefs and cocktail nixologists.,

863

Maybe tell us about one of those

highlights, because I'd love to hear

864

about the shiny side of the experience.

865

You know, I think there's, I think

a lot of people, because most people

866

have never cruised before, and so this

is where a lot of cruising is really

867

about growing the category, because a

lot of people misunderstand cruising.

868

And it's just, it's a wonderful

category from a standpoint of building

869

amazing experiences for vacations.

870

And marketing them.

871

Right.

872

So I'll, you know, I'll tell you an

example of something that I think

873

taken from my entertainment media

days from Disney, you know, I, you

874

know, when you're doing marketing,

movies, whatever, you're always trying

875

to find that, that positioning line.

876

Right.

877

And maybe like from the creators of Lion

King comes our next big motion picture.

878

Right.

879

Right.

880

There's always IP.

881

And so when we were trying

to figure out, , how do we

882

reinvent maybe our entertainment?

883

We have broadway style shows.

884

We actually have kind of a big theater,

better than many broadway theaters.

885

And, we were thinking about what

do we do because there's other

886

ships that have broadway shows.

887

You actually have mama mia

on Royal Caribbean, right?

888

You have these broadway shows,

but it's expensive, right?

889

You got to license them.

890

So instead we said, look, why

don't we do borrowed equity?

891

Could we get somebody to work with us?

892

And so we were fortunate to have

gotten Stephen Schwartz, the creator of

893

Pippin, Godspell, and of course, Wicked.

894

We could say, you know, from the

creator of Wicked comes his next

895

great Broadway musical premiering

exclusively on Princess Cruises.

896

So when you think about movies

going direct to Netflix or at

897

Disney, I was lucky enough to

help invent, direct to video.

898

We now had Broadway shows from

the creator of Wicked going

899

direct to Princess Cruises.

900

Neat.

901

Great.

902

That's an example.

903

And that gives you a marketing hook

for people who are interested in that.

904

And we did also a partnership with

discovery channel where we brought

905

experiences, like we had the deadliest

catch tour in Alaska exclusively on

906

princess cruises, because we had a

partnership with discovery and their

907

sister division, animal planet.

908

So that allowed us to create

these amazing branded experiences.

909

Very cool.

910

I'm trying to imagine Brian's

reaction when I told him he just

911

got the job where he has to go, find

the entertainment and the desserts

912

and the cocktails for a cruise.

913

I think all over the world.

914

I think his head.

915

I mean, cocktails are big.

916

our cocktail mixologist, He,

created these amazing cocktails.

917

And a lot of them were destination theme.

918

Cause we always were like

to try to embrace the local

919

destinations that we went to.

920

So, our wine program, our cocktail

program, our, chocolate program,

921

our, our bed, we created a new bed.

922

We hired one of the best sleep experts

to create our Prince's luxury bed because

923

people go on vacation to relax and sleep.

924

So we wanted to make sure they

had the best sleep on vacation.

925

It got so popular we had to sell our beds

because people said, can I buy this thing?

926

That's crazy.

927

Who knew you had to think

of a chocolate program.

928

That's the news to me learning

so much today Yeah chocolate.

929

I mean think about chocolate, right?

930

If you look at our one of our core

targets of women who often help drive

931

the vacation That's one of the few

indulgences they give themselves is

932

chocolate We actually did surveys, right?

933

We actually asked, so I apologies

for your listeners, but we asked

934

women and men the same question.

935

Would you give up chocolate

or would you give up sex?

936

And you can imagine the answer.

937

Women were different than the

answer than what men gave.

938

That's because they have to

sleep with men sometimes.

939

So, , can you talk a little bit about

how, , technology, , transformed

940

that, that guest experience over

the years while you were there?

941

Cause I can only imagine

the types of strides that.

942

you were able to make and incorporate

into the, the cruise experience that

943

hadn't traditionally been there.

944

I think the biggest thing is what,

John, you mentioned earlier, the

945

Ocean Medallion smart wearable.

946

that was really advanced

and continues to be right.

947

You would wear it.

948

It would sync to the, an app on

your phone, as well as all these

949

various, sensors on the ship.

950

So we would know.

951

All sorts of things to personalize

our vacation experience for you.

952

So you could check in on the ship quicker.

953

You could open your, your

room with your medallion.

954

You could order things and

things would be delivered to you.

955

So you don't have to be at

the bar to order a drink.

956

I mean, I would say it's a bar wherever

you are, or since I'm from Wisconsin.

957

You know, and I come from

Milwaukee, a beer is always near.

958

How's that?

959

And, and, and I think that's one of,

these are the things where technology

960

and smart technology can improve

the experience because it was saving

961

you time and time is what you want.

962

That's the most precious

commodity on vacation, right?

963

Whether it's, I don't want to spend

10 minutes going to the bar waiting

964

and coming back to my, my lounge.

965

Not don't have to, we'll deliver

a drink to you wherever you are.

966

That's amazing.

967

Was it something that you were able

to implement pretty quickly once

968

it was ready, like how do you make

sure that like that is cruise ready?

969

Because I can imagine that, minimum

viable products, versus the full

970

reality is a difficult long run.

971

Yeah, Brian, you're right.

972

It took time.

973

I mean, it was, I would

say it was a soft rollout.

974

And it just gradually, because there

was clearly just like with any initial

975

rollout, there's going to be some,

things that aren't working perfectly.

976

So you have to constantly

try to refine it.

977

So it took time to get it to a place

where you felt, you know, every,

978

every month, it made a difference in

terms of how well it was operating,

979

meeting expectations and so forth.

980

so, yeah, it was quite the learning

curve because it is very advanced

981

in terms of that smart wearable.

982

So good point.

983

Brian and I always talk about marketing.

984

We love marketing and this podcast is

about how brands position themselves.

985

It seems like when you ask someone

about cruising, there's kind of

986

like two kinds of people out there.

987

Those who say they love cruises and

those who say they will never go on one.

988

Did you market?

989

Cruises to people who

were those kind of nevers.

990

And if so, how did you do it?

991

Yeah, John, good question.

992

So part of it is, you know, the

people who said, Oh, I get seasick.

993

And we try to educate them.

994

Look at what, what you experience a

seasickness rarely happens on the ship

995

because it's so big and all these things.

996

But the common thing is

just misunderstanding.

997

Like they said, yeah, a lot

of people were, I would do it.

998

I just haven't needed to because

they are just doing land vacations.

999

Right.

00:45:45,985 --> 00:45:49,705

So one of the things that we came up

with was this idea is there's cruise

00:45:49,705 --> 00:45:52,534

vacations that you can only do on ocean.

00:45:52,544 --> 00:45:53,924

You can't do it on land.

00:45:54,074 --> 00:45:55,784

Give me an example, Panama canal.

00:45:55,784 --> 00:45:59,904

If you want to go through the Panama

canal, you got to do it through a cruise.

00:45:59,904 --> 00:46:01,964

And it's one of the

greatest man made wonders.

00:46:01,964 --> 00:46:03,334

It's amazing to go through the locks.

00:46:03,429 --> 00:46:07,149

Alaska, really the best way to

see Alaska is through a cruise.

00:46:07,334 --> 00:46:07,654

Yeah.

00:46:07,820 --> 00:46:08,130

Right.

00:46:08,195 --> 00:46:12,155

And so we created with Condé Nast

Traveler what we called the seven

00:46:12,155 --> 00:46:13,035

cruise wonders of the world.

00:46:13,162 --> 00:46:13,402

Right.

00:46:13,402 --> 00:46:19,382

The idea that these are vacations that

pretty much exclusively are better or only

00:46:19,382 --> 00:46:21,302

available through an ocean based cruise.

00:46:21,302 --> 00:46:24,752

So people would read this article on

Condé Nast and say, oh my goodness.

00:46:24,842 --> 00:46:26,922

We really should do the

Panama Canal cruise.

00:46:26,922 --> 00:46:30,272

You've always like, you know,

you're big into engineering things.

00:46:30,282 --> 00:46:31,182

Let's go check it out.

00:46:31,192 --> 00:46:33,112

Or I'd love to see wildlife.

00:46:33,132 --> 00:46:34,862

Let's go on an Alaska cruise.

00:46:34,902 --> 00:46:35,192

Right?

00:46:35,252 --> 00:46:39,062

You know, those are the type of things

that we would help promote through that.

00:46:39,102 --> 00:46:41,322

So that's an example of us trying to grow.

00:46:41,347 --> 00:46:42,474

The cruise never's.

00:46:42,474 --> 00:46:47,034

The other thing we would do is we promoted

celebrations because John and Brian,

00:46:47,044 --> 00:46:50,334

you may be say, Oh, I'm indifferent, but

I haven't had a need, but let's say I

00:46:50,344 --> 00:46:52,794

said, you know, Hey guys, I'm retiring.

00:46:52,794 --> 00:46:54,824

I would like you to join me on a cruise.

00:46:54,844 --> 00:46:56,014

We've got a great rate.

00:46:56,061 --> 00:46:57,881

It's just a three day short cruise.

00:46:57,901 --> 00:47:01,321

Please come join me on this

great retirement, shindig.

00:47:01,384 --> 00:47:02,164

You might go.

00:47:02,214 --> 00:47:03,094

Yeah, we're in.

00:47:03,167 --> 00:47:03,567

We're in.

00:47:04,157 --> 00:47:09,194

This is where celebrations are a great

way to get newbies to come aboard, right?

00:47:09,194 --> 00:47:12,374

Someone's having a honeymoon

or an anniversary, a retirement

00:47:12,374 --> 00:47:13,461

party, whatever it is.

00:47:13,567 --> 00:47:21,077

Brian, I am hereby inviting you and Gordon

to take a celebratory cruise when Snap

00:47:21,077 --> 00:47:23,207

Decisions makes this one millionth dollar.

00:47:25,862 --> 00:47:27,632

We'll do a live broadcast from the ship.

00:47:27,872 --> 00:47:28,472

There we go..

00:47:28,656 --> 00:47:31,236

I'd love to hear a little bit

about your time at Disney and,

00:47:31,236 --> 00:47:32,496

what that experience was like.

00:47:32,496 --> 00:47:35,596

It seemed like the larger part of

your earlier career was from there.

00:47:36,006 --> 00:47:37,296

Disney was 18 years.

00:47:37,296 --> 00:47:38,366

It was wonderful.

00:47:38,451 --> 00:47:41,751

You know, I will tell many people who

asked me about like what they recommend

00:47:41,751 --> 00:47:44,721

in terms of careers and jobs, you know,

obviously find something you're passionate

00:47:44,721 --> 00:47:48,241

about, find something ideally you're

good at, but if you can find a market

00:47:48,241 --> 00:47:51,241

that's growing, right, there's just more

opportunities when it's growing and the

00:47:51,241 --> 00:47:55,581

home entertainment market was exploding

with people buying videos, buying DVDs.

00:47:55,581 --> 00:47:58,491

But then of course, there was a road

bump when people eventually transitioned

00:47:58,501 --> 00:48:00,221

from ownership to access, right?

00:48:00,221 --> 00:48:03,381

But for the years I was there,

it was mostly rapid growth.

00:48:03,401 --> 00:48:04,391

It was, it was great.

00:48:04,391 --> 00:48:04,701

When.

00:48:04,772 --> 00:48:08,642

you were working from people like with

ABC and we, we made lost one of the best

00:48:08,642 --> 00:48:11,232

selling TV box sets of all time, right?

00:48:11,232 --> 00:48:15,969

That was amazing to, animation working

with the Pixar people and Steve jobs

00:48:15,969 --> 00:48:20,389

on finding Nemo and toy story to, the

people at the Disney channel, high

00:48:20,389 --> 00:48:25,559

school musical was a huge seller on DVD

to of course, pirates of the Caribbean

00:48:25,559 --> 00:48:27,169

and Disney live action movies, right?

00:48:27,169 --> 00:48:28,629

It was amazing how.

00:48:28,746 --> 00:48:32,046

There was all this consumption and

people wanted to have their library.

00:48:32,046 --> 00:48:34,786

And of course, from a marketing

standpoint, there was this idea that

00:48:34,796 --> 00:48:38,682

hurry, get the Lion King before it

goes back into the Disney vault.

00:48:38,709 --> 00:48:43,459

Yes, and this is and I will give credit

to roy disney He came up with the idea

00:48:43,479 --> 00:48:47,626

because they needed money So they said

00:48:47,626 --> 00:48:52,366

let's bring back snow white into theaters

So we we copied that but what we did is

00:48:52,366 --> 00:48:54,436

we added this concept of a disney vault.

00:48:54,446 --> 00:48:57,254

We actually Created a

vault that slammed shut.

00:48:57,254 --> 00:49:02,084

So in our commercial, Ariel would swim

into the vault and we would slam shut.

00:49:02,184 --> 00:49:06,044

And you don't want to be that bad

parent that prevents your kids from

00:49:06,044 --> 00:49:08,884

experiencing Sebastian founder and Ariel.

00:49:08,974 --> 00:49:09,304

Right.

00:49:09,457 --> 00:49:10,257

So that was great.

00:49:10,257 --> 00:49:13,657

And of course that doesn't work as well

now with everything being accessible,

00:49:13,657 --> 00:49:17,587

but back then, oh my goodness, our

disappearing classics campaign was huge.

00:49:17,751 --> 00:49:18,640

Yeah, gee, thanks.

00:49:18,641 --> 00:49:19,341

Thanks, Gordon.

00:49:19,381 --> 00:49:19,691

Thanks.

00:49:19,691 --> 00:49:20,231

Yeah, sorry.

00:49:20,641 --> 00:49:21,261

Sorry, John.

00:49:21,601 --> 00:49:25,271

But those, those were examples of things

that were so much fun creating those

00:49:25,271 --> 00:49:29,357

type of things, did a lot of testing

with packaging, because we would test

00:49:29,357 --> 00:49:32,837

our packages and see which ones would pop

off the shelf that people want to buy.

00:49:32,929 --> 00:49:36,319

And then even, and I mentioned to you,

inventing direct to video was, was quite

00:49:36,319 --> 00:49:39,619

the thing that we're very proud of, which

made a lot of money for the company.

00:49:39,696 --> 00:49:42,736

And the last thing I would say is

recognizing that we needed data

00:49:42,746 --> 00:49:47,116

because most of the data for movies

were with the, with the theater chains

00:49:47,116 --> 00:49:49,016

like AMC or they're with Walmart.

00:49:49,037 --> 00:49:52,527

So we decided to create our own loyalty

program, Disney Movie Rewards, and that

00:49:52,527 --> 00:49:56,091

allowed us to have a huge database of

millions of people, which have then was

00:49:56,091 --> 00:49:57,851

used as a foundation for Disney Plus.

00:49:57,861 --> 00:50:01,331

So I'm very proud that we come, we came

up with that loyalty program because

00:50:01,331 --> 00:50:05,011

data is the new digital gold, if you

say so a little bit of some of the

00:50:05,011 --> 00:50:07,841

things that we worked on that, that

very proud of the teams and what we

00:50:07,851 --> 00:50:11,531

were able to do during a category that

was growing rapidly until it didn't.

00:50:11,802 --> 00:50:12,212

Yeah.

00:50:12,366 --> 00:50:12,566

Yeah.

00:50:12,606 --> 00:50:16,756

Well, I think that's a good lesson

for, for any marketer is just, not

00:50:16,756 --> 00:50:20,196

being afraid to evolve and change

before it changes you, you know.

00:50:20,346 --> 00:50:20,406

Yeah.

00:50:21,219 --> 00:50:21,429

Yep.

00:50:21,672 --> 00:50:24,252

Guys, it was a pleasure

talking to you, John.

00:50:24,252 --> 00:50:25,122

Fine, thank you so much.

00:50:25,122 --> 00:50:26,982

You, your, your students are so lucky.

00:50:27,072 --> 00:50:28,362

It's no, you're so high.

00:50:28,362 --> 00:50:30,042

You are truly a masterclass.

00:50:30,042 --> 00:50:32,322

I feel like we can do this

all day, and learn from you.

00:50:32,532 --> 00:50:34,879

So, your, you're so well,

we'll do a part two.

00:50:34,939 --> 00:50:35,479

That's fine.

00:50:35,484 --> 00:50:36,799

We'll, we'll look forward to it.

00:50:36,799 --> 00:50:39,769

But guys, congratulations on

your podcast, and it was a lot

00:50:39,769 --> 00:50:40,999

of fun talking to you guys.

00:50:40,999 --> 00:50:41,119

Awesome.

00:50:41,379 --> 00:50:41,769

Thanks, Gordon.

00:50:41,769 --> 00:50:42,699

Thank you very much.

00:50:42,699 --> 00:50:43,449

We appreciate it.

00:50:43,629 --> 00:50:44,469

You guys take care.

00:50:44,469 --> 00:50:44,742

All right.

00:50:44,757 --> 00:50:44,957

All right.

00:50:49,033 --> 00:50:54,456

Well, John, Gordon, just brought so

much intelligence and, great examples.

00:50:54,510 --> 00:50:55,660

just fantastic.

00:50:55,990 --> 00:51:00,430

Example after example of just

amazing what they had to figure out.

00:51:00,463 --> 00:51:00,813

Yeah.

00:51:00,850 --> 00:51:01,170

Yeah.

00:51:01,170 --> 00:51:04,620

And the attention to detail to

me, that's such a huge thing.

00:51:04,620 --> 00:51:07,800

And, the big learning I got out

of it was just how prepared he was.

00:51:09,465 --> 00:51:13,355

And you know, anybody could be

in a, in a position of being in a

00:51:13,355 --> 00:51:16,835

crisis one day, but just staying

ahead of the game is so important.

00:51:16,835 --> 00:51:19,855

And it's hard, so hard to see that

sometimes when you're kind of in the

00:51:19,865 --> 00:51:21,535

middle of your job day to day, but.

00:51:21,705 --> 00:51:25,138

You really need to be able to, prepare for

any type of situation that might pop up.

00:51:25,328 --> 00:51:25,658

Yeah.

00:51:25,838 --> 00:51:26,098

Yeah.

00:51:26,098 --> 00:51:29,258

And even though the way it

unfolded, there's no way they could

00:51:29,258 --> 00:51:30,418

have prepared for all of that.

00:51:30,718 --> 00:51:33,458

There's no way they could have done

what they did if they hadn't prepared.

00:51:33,668 --> 00:51:37,911

I also loved the, the, the notion that

they were able to share best practices

00:51:37,911 --> 00:51:41,461

with the industry, because to his

point, that's not good for anybody.

00:51:41,621 --> 00:51:45,945

If there's calamity happening, across,

you know, an entire section of tourism,

00:51:45,945 --> 00:51:50,025

especially with the way that everything

was unfolding during that time.

00:51:50,025 --> 00:51:51,325

everything was falling apart.

00:51:51,325 --> 00:51:53,641

So the fact that, they're able

to share how to get through

00:51:53,641 --> 00:51:54,961

this that's the right thing to

00:51:54,961 --> 00:51:55,301

Do.

00:51:56,561 --> 00:51:57,431

. interesting.

00:51:57,951 --> 00:52:00,971

Hopefully, hopelessly

unattainable guests for you, John.

00:52:01,751 --> 00:52:04,351

I think it's somebody that

we need to be talking to.

00:52:04,381 --> 00:52:09,871

We can gain some intelligence on

business and, financial acumen.

00:52:09,981 --> 00:52:13,755

And, the person that, I'm reaching

out to here is Warren Buffett.

00:52:13,901 --> 00:52:14,981

Oh, good.

00:52:15,011 --> 00:52:15,301

Yeah.

00:52:15,455 --> 00:52:15,935

Good one.

00:52:16,035 --> 00:52:18,545

So, here's my letter to Warren Buffett.

00:52:18,841 --> 00:52:20,428

Dear Warren, help.

00:52:20,556 --> 00:52:24,386

Please help us understand how

you became an investment genius.

00:52:24,426 --> 00:52:27,330

We want to know, no, we need to know Mr.

00:52:27,330 --> 00:52:32,280

Oracle of Omaha, your 45 steps ahead

of everyone else, your patience and

00:52:32,290 --> 00:52:36,440

perseverance in the market and in

people exudes leadership and confidence.

00:52:36,513 --> 00:52:38,563

We believe in you and your actions.

00:52:38,573 --> 00:52:41,203

So help us learn on our

podcast, snap decisions.

00:52:41,223 --> 00:52:44,733

We'd love to go back to the

beginning, how you found inspiration

00:52:44,743 --> 00:52:48,503

ways to make a thousand dollars.

00:52:48,503 --> 00:52:51,896

All that business acumen you gain

from your jobs and your youth, how you

00:52:51,896 --> 00:52:55,940

place pinball machines in local barber

shops, how you graduated early from the

00:52:55,940 --> 00:53:01,433

you were a millionaire by the early 1960s

00:53:02,073 --> 00:53:03,873

and a billionaire by the mid eighties.

00:53:04,128 --> 00:53:07,198

But we want to know about the famous

long game you play, the trust you

00:53:07,198 --> 00:53:11,125

place in a stock's value, in the people

that run companies, how you're able

00:53:11,125 --> 00:53:14,695

to cut through the pressure and the

noise and operate on simple terms.

00:53:15,005 --> 00:53:18,725

You're unlike anyone, and you're

still going strong today at 93.

00:53:18,941 --> 00:53:23,885

Let's talk on Zoom or at that

00:53:25,085 --> 00:53:28,125

What has and hasn't changed

in the life of Warren Buffett.

00:53:28,458 --> 00:53:30,638

Our giant base of listeners

want to hear about it.

00:53:30,835 --> 00:53:32,715

Let us know a time that works for you.

00:53:32,765 --> 00:53:35,775

Feel free to send your

jet or horse and buggy.

00:53:35,918 --> 00:53:37,348

Thanks, Brian and John.

00:53:38,658 --> 00:53:39,238

Wow.

00:53:39,415 --> 00:53:40,095

That's a good one.

00:53:40,281 --> 00:53:43,381

We need to get Warren into the

top of the queue here in terms of

00:53:43,708 --> 00:53:44,968

Our hopelessly unattainable guest.

00:53:44,968 --> 00:53:48,631

We need to get to him

first because he's 93.