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What's The Equation For A Winning Team?
Episode 6929th January 2024 • The Unified Team • Rob McPhillips
00:00:00 01:03:09

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Stories are inspiring and they can teach us lessons about what works.

But they also have their limitations. Stories have specific characters and are bound within a context. Someone in a different situation with a different style might not be able to replicate that.

Maths is the language of purity.

An equation abstracts what is universally true. As soon as it doesn't work in a given context, it is no longer true. So an equation can give us a frame of knowledge that empowers everyone.

In this episode we set out to try to identify what are the universal elements of a team that any leader could use as a guide.

Transcripts

Rob:

The idea of the podcast is that somewhere in the mix of what we all

Rob:

get to bring and in our interactions and our friction between us, we can

Rob:

come up with a more refined idea and perspective than we had at the beginning.

Rob:

So the frame for today's discussion is what would be

Rob:

the ideal equation for a team?

Rob:

I remember John Gottman relationship researcher talked about how

Rob:

different him and his wife were.

Rob:

And his idea of relationship research was to boil down relationships

Rob:

to a differential equation.

Rob:

And his wife had a deep therapeutic background.

Rob:

So actually he did about.

Rob:

25 years of research, which was pure maths didn't try and make anyone's relationship

Rob:

better, just studied relationships.

Rob:

And it was only when they combined that they came up with a shared

Rob:

house model and they actually started publishing the books and they actually

Rob:

started doing therapy themselves.

Rob:

It made me think that a lot of people have a strong preference

Rob:

between maths and English.

Rob:

I think maths and English are different languages.

Rob:

What people, who struggle with maths is they don't understand

Rob:

it's a distinct language.

Rob:

When we tell stories like a iconic story or something that happened

Rob:

and we learn from that story, then we're talking in English.

Rob:

Maths is the quickest, most direct, most pure way of describing what

Rob:

happens and what needs to be in place.

Rob:

What I come up with is something like a clear strategy, capacity, the skills

Rob:

of the team to be able to do what they're up being asked to do the flow of

Rob:

communication and the unity of the team.

Rob:

Our mission for this hour is to try to add embellish and to come up with.

Rob:

A kind of frame that we can agree that any team could use as a

Rob:

basic framework to build upon.

Rob:

When we're looking at a perfect team, I think sport is very clear cut.

Rob:

If you're playing football it's how many goals have gone in the

Rob:

net, how many you defended is quite clear cut what a team is.

Rob:

Building on that communication in a business team is like passing the ball.

Rob:

What we want is to be able to move the ball.

Rob:

Move whatever resources we need to the point that they can have most impact.

Matthew:

I'll start this way because I suspect I'm less analytical.

Matthew:

about this than others.

Matthew:

In my experience, when we were building teams or in our case stores,

Matthew:

I always started with the culture.

Matthew:

I had a culture and I looked for people that would fit that culture.

Matthew:

After that people would find their own way to fit into it because

Matthew:

If they fit the culture, then the culture will make room for them.

Matthew:

And you didn't have to go out in a specific, in my case, anyway, you didn't

Matthew:

have to go out and specifically recruit the ideal person because the ideal person

Matthew:

is a person that fits the culture, right?

Matthew:

And the culture will police itself.

Matthew:

I always found.

Matthew:

So I started with the culture.

Matthew:

I look for people that fit the culture.

Matthew:

And then the culture looked after them, found them places.

Rob:

You started a chain of 72 stores.

Rob:

So each of them had a team.

Matthew:

Correct.

Matthew:

And I would call that a team.

Matthew:

Some other businesses, they'd be departments or projects,

Matthew:

but in my case, it was a well defined box with people in it.

Rob:

Over the first three to five stores was where you built.

Rob:

The winning culture that the culture that was going to, you wanted to create a

Rob:

template for it probably took about that

Matthew:

long to develop.

Matthew:

I was very young.

Matthew:

I was 24 when I started and I thought I knew everything of course, but it took

Matthew:

me a couple of years to figure out.

Matthew:

I knew nothing.

Matthew:

And so it was a learning process as we went along and we slowly cobbled

Matthew:

together something that worked.

Matthew:

And then the Project from there on in was to as I said, find people that fit it.

Matthew:

And then as you went store to store, you had to replicate it,

Matthew:

which was the real challenge.

Rob:

What were the things that were you were looking when you went

Rob:

to try and replicate a culture.

Rob:

What was, what were you looking to replicate?

Rob:

Where did you start?

Matthew:

Two answers to that.

Matthew:

The first answer is if you're doing another store locally, so you've

Matthew:

got stores in Toronto, you're going to add another local store.

Matthew:

The ideal way to do that is just to take people out of the existing system as

Matthew:

managers and leaders and put them in with the new people and they will show the way.

Matthew:

Because they will carry the flag, right?

Matthew:

It becomes more difficult if you're trying to build a store in Rimouski, Quebec,

Matthew:

which is about a thousand kilometers away, and an entirely different language

Matthew:

and an entirely different culture, right?

Matthew:

It's French there.

Matthew:

This is where we had real difficulties, because we

Matthew:

couldn't really transfer people.

Matthew:

And we found what worked over time was to have a lot of what they call symbols

Matthew:

and totems and ideas and sayings and it's just repetition and it's just trying

Matthew:

to build that feeling, that culture from the ground up, which is very hard.

Matthew:

It's very hard because cultures always exist.

Matthew:

Like when you go in there with a brand new set of people, there's already a culture.

Matthew:

Every group has its own culture, right?

Matthew:

It's the culture of new people at a business, right?

Matthew:

It has a culture.

Matthew:

And so that was the real challenge.

Matthew:

And we weren't always successful at it to be honest.

Matthew:

It was very hard, but the things that helped us was symbols, totems.

Matthew:

Sayings, heavy management it was really important to have middle

Matthew:

management that was bought in that, that knew and understood the

Matthew:

culture and could carry it in there.

Matthew:

It took a lot of time and effort.

Matthew:

I must say,

Michalina:

I think we're already starting to look at things

Michalina:

that are close to my heart.

Michalina:

Rob, you really want to have a formula and an ideal, world in

Michalina:

which things will just work.

Michalina:

And I can already see that we are only starting a conversation, but we already

Michalina:

talking about the context and culture.

Michalina:

And purpose.

Michalina:

And what Matthew started talking about is that purpose and culture and being

Michalina:

able to have that driven by the right leadership and the right elements and

Michalina:

salient characteristics of what he wanted, what was the purpose of his business.

Michalina:

You, Rob started talking to Tony about sports context, straight into

Michalina:

context and purpose and culture and things you can't really unify

Michalina:

and separate from everything else.

Michalina:

And I think for me, there's a number of layers that we can say,

Michalina:

Oh, these things could be fantastic ingredients to build the right team.

Michalina:

But my immediate question is the right team for whom to do what?

Michalina:

in what setting.

Michalina:

So that's to start with.

Michalina:

And this could be anything culture characteristics, leadership.

Michalina:

This could be people's capabilities, experiences, and

Michalina:

skill sets that they employed for.

Michalina:

But then in reality, wherever you look, there is always a changeable

Michalina:

context where people come and go.

Michalina:

Leaders come and go, middle managers come and go you inherit parts of the

Michalina:

teams or they are dismantled if we took at if we look at technology context at

Michalina:

the moment in any technology business, they are bought and sold all the time.

Michalina:

Teams are bought together.

Michalina:

for a purpose, for a reason, for a goal, and then dismantled afterwards.

Michalina:

You've got people from the global village working together.

Michalina:

It's no longer about looking for people who fit.

Michalina:

This is very much about diversity of thought and diversity of experiences.

Michalina:

How can you put this into unified, lovely, clinical environment?

Michalina:

I don't know.

Michalina:

So here's my challenge to you, Rob.

Michalina:

How would you do this?

Michalina:

I just fundamentally disagree with the perfect

Rob:

formula.

Rob:

It's not so much that you're fitting people into a perfect formula,

Rob:

but you're understanding all the lowest factors that you've got.

Rob:

And then you're, putting the model together of what's universal.

Rob:

So for example, Google's project Aristotle, which was about.

Rob:

It's about how we interact.

Rob:

It's not about who we interact, but what, so they talked about

Rob:

the main factor was psychological safety and it's about people.

Rob:

Being able to all feel that they can contribute and share.

Rob:

So it's those things rather than a formula for a specific team.

Rob:

It's what are the ingredients that create the culture, and all the other

Rob:

context so that teams do thrive.

Saieed:

I obviously admire Matthew's story and obviously being that young

Saieed:

to be able to do what he did and be able to see culture as something

Saieed:

significant back then was in itself like an innovation because we've still got

Saieed:

organizations and individuals who don't understand culture as it is nowadays.

Saieed:

The only sort of thing I mildly disagree with is the ability of being

Saieed:

able to think how you could replicate.

Saieed:

a certain culture or fit in people to a culture because what we're

Saieed:

finding nowadays, which is more relevant to the times now, is there

Saieed:

shouldn't really be a culture zone.

Saieed:

There shouldn't really be a fit.

Saieed:

And this is what I try to get in with organizations to say is like

Saieed:

your recruitment process shouldn't really focus on if a candidate is

Saieed:

the right fit if they will feel good in a role that you've already set.

Saieed:

The boundaries from a cultural aspect, whereas what you should be really

Saieed:

thinking is will that individual be celebrated and valued and appreciated

Saieed:

based on their diversity and based on what they can bring and add to the culture,

Saieed:

rather than saying this is our cultural framework, and this is our boundaries.

Saieed:

And if you fit, then fine, you come in, if you don't fit, then I'm sorry, you go.

Saieed:

This is what I fundamentally disagree with because culture is

Saieed:

such a massive, comprehensive topic.

Saieed:

Like Michalina said, you really can't give certain context to it because it really

Saieed:

does depend on the industry the company.

Saieed:

What you're trying to do, product service, how you even define teams, how you define

Saieed:

success, how you define productivity.

Saieed:

So when you set an equation for say, an effective or productive team, my question,

Saieed:

my first question would be, how would you define effectiveness and productivity?

Saieed:

Before we get to the main question.

Saieed:

So that's all I wanted to add.

Michalina:

I think, Saeed, this is very valuable what you've said, but just

Michalina:

going back to what Matthew mentioned, I think it's still relevant actually.

Michalina:

This is about company purpose and values.

Michalina:

So regardless of where you're from and what you bring in, yes, absolutely,

Michalina:

you should have that inclusion dance where you should bring your whole

Michalina:

self to work, you should be able to contribute and your contribution

Michalina:

should be valued and celebrated.

Michalina:

But actually there are certain principles that if we agree to come along and

Michalina:

be a team, we should be adhering to.

Michalina:

This could be integrity.

Michalina:

This could be respect.

Michalina:

This could be.

Michalina:

Performance, this could be whatever it is that you want as a company value and

Michalina:

purpose, but it should still be there.

Michalina:

So it's absolutely still relevant that those things haven't changed.

Michalina:

We just call them slightly differently.

Saieed:

Yeah, no, I agree.

Saieed:

I normally bring that under the value umbrella and say

Saieed:

what are your core values?

Saieed:

What is the mission and vision?

Saieed:

One of the things I see as well is how companies.

Saieed:

To have their own set of core values and try to instill that into their

Saieed:

People whereas what I often encourage companies to do is Engage stakeholders

Saieed:

engage everyone in that process because teams could have different core values.

Saieed:

It's not necessarily we've got core values sitting at the top and then everyone

Saieed:

has to follow that it's Your team could value certain things over other things.

Saieed:

So while she say there's integrity, honesty, respect, transparency, that

Saieed:

sort of thing, that's quite a common theme, but I tried to drill that

Saieed:

a bit further and then I use that to intercross between those values

Saieed:

and the culture that's prevalent.

Saieed:

So that's why I meant it's not necessarily just.

Saieed:

Diversity inclusion, because that's a whole different ballgame, but it's

Saieed:

more to say culture is just such a massive subject that we don't really

Saieed:

truly understand it because now we're mixing in values into it as well.

Saieed:

What differentiates between what values are, what core values are,

Saieed:

versus what is class as a culture or a cultural initiative or event.

Saieed:

Versus what the processes are that are aligning to certain

Saieed:

values, if that makes sense.

Saieed:

Who makes that differentiation?

Saieed:

How do you make that visible is what I'm trying to say.

Matthew:

Tony, this would be really fascinating from a team sport

Matthew:

perspective, because a it's a high pressure situation and people

Matthew:

absolutely do have to work as a team.

Matthew:

There's no two ways about it.

Matthew:

It's win or lose every single, every week.

Matthew:

So I'm curious to note Tony, how you look at this idea of culture or if

Matthew:

you folks over in your world ever

Tony:

did at all.

Tony:

Yeah, very much and I think it's important that, in a discussion about

Tony:

culture, we almost have an agreement about what we mean by the word culture,

Tony:

because if we could be all talking about four, five completely different

Tony:

ideas of what culture means or says.

Tony:

I look at it this way.

Tony:

The game doesn't discriminate.

Tony:

The sports game says you need to score one more goal than the opposition.

Tony:

There's no argument.

Tony:

And the coach or the manager of the team may have been engaged because his

Tony:

methodology, his playing style fits the iconic brand of the organization.

Tony:

So they want a coach that plays a ticki tacka football, like Barcelona,

Tony:

it's embedded in the culture of that organization over many years.

Tony:

And others just ignore it altogether.

Tony:

They just want someone that's going to come in and get results.

Tony:

And he's got a proven track record of doing that.

Tony:

So regardless of how the individual that comes in approaches.

Tony:

That the demands of the game haven't changed.

Tony:

So if I think about that from the hairdressing business, for

Tony:

example, what I love about your story is that the culture.

Tony:

revealed itself through the practice of cutting hair in multiple different

Tony:

parts of the country, let's say.

Tony:

It evolved in all these different pockets of activity.

Tony:

As you were revealing for yourself, the principles that you thought

Tony:

were important, they reveal themselves and you would have.

Tony:

found and learned and all sorts of things like that.

Tony:

If I cut right back to Rob's first question and tie it back, a team is

Tony:

more than one person pursuing one of these externally driven objectives.

Tony:

So the demand of the game is to win.

Tony:

The demand of the business is to make profit.

Tony:

And there's a set of principles that enable us to work together

Tony:

in the best possible way.

Tony:

It doesn't need to be more complex than that because culture is complex.

Tony:

What tends to happen is people go this is the culture that we want.

Tony:

We've got to really understand between us what that means, but they say that

Tony:

and they put that front and center before they've brought the people together to

Tony:

start finding out actually how are we going to work together here, because

Tony:

only then will we actually reveal what are the ideals for these people?

Tony:

They've all got different wants, they've all got different needs that need to be

Tony:

met, they've all got different values, different learned behaviors and beliefs

Tony:

and all these multi complex things.

Tony:

Same with football, I've got a group of footballers, some are

Tony:

really excited by the prospect of, playing in front of 50, 000 people.

Tony:

And anything's possible.

Tony:

I might score the goal that wins us the cup final, the person standing next

Tony:

to them in the lineup before the game kicks off is absolutely terrified of

Tony:

making a mistake, yet they still have to function because the game demands

Tony:

that they perform at the same level.

Tony:

And I think with all of those individual complexities, whatever

Tony:

the equation we come up with.

Tony:

How do we capture all of the unique individuality of everybody

Tony:

that's involved and as a manager?

Tony:

Navigate that towards a cultural ideal, or, we want to win.

Tony:

Yes, that the game demands that we do that.

Tony:

But let's, how do we agree on the intention of how we're going to do it?

Tony:

For me, I like to think about aligned intention as the first port of call.

Tony:

If I can get Three people aligned to the same intention, and they can then

Tony:

start to understand other people well enough to say, okay, I can work with you.

Tony:

Let's, do we agree?

Tony:

Let's try and do this.

Tony:

You can slowly build what may end up being, in retrospect, the culture

Tony:

It is very complex, but as complex as it is, the demand doesn't change

Tony:

and people have to participate within a team and pursue that objective.

Tony:

And there's only one winner.

Tony:

Everybody else fails to varying degrees in the pursuit of that.

Tony:

So we could be here for days.

Tony:

Couldn't we talking about this

Rob:

stuff?

Rob:

We could.

Rob:

In terms of football, some football clubs have a strong identity.

Rob:

So Manchester United, Liverpool, Tottenham, their fans won't

Rob:

tolerate anything less.

Rob:

When you get someone like Blackburn or Leicester, when they won the

Rob:

Premier League I don't think the fans were too worried about the culture.

Rob:

They just wanted the success.

Rob:

What you've talked about is the goal.

Rob:

So for me, in my analytical way is the goal is part of the equation.

Rob:

The culture is part of the equation, dropping aside the equation so that we

Rob:

can talk, my background is relationships I got into teams when I realized

Rob:

that a great relationship is a team.

Rob:

It doesn't matter if it's a couple or a multinational organization.

Rob:

A team is combined and it's united by its purpose.

Rob:

And I think it's the purpose of why we congregate together

Rob:

that gives us our, the meaning.

Rob:

Then it's about people being able to be included and accepting

Rob:

diverse perspectives But it's about how we go about that.

Rob:

It's about meaning that everyone has a voice.

Rob:

Everyone is accepted everyone is able to contribute and then it's

Rob:

about Communication and somewhere someone has to lead that change.

Rob:

For me, a leader is someone who can listen to everyone taking all

Rob:

the stakeholders perspectives, and they're able to articulate

Rob:

something that people resonate with.

Rob:

A key element of culture and teams begin with a leader because there has

Rob:

to be someone who starts the fires every morning, someone who starts

Rob:

the discussion, someone who has the spark, the intent, the vision.

Rob:

So maybe that's a place to look.

Tony:

Yeah let me pose this, Rob, because that's prompted at the thought,

Tony:

I do a lot of work with a high level.

Tony:

Football manager.

Tony:

We're thinking partners in a way.

Tony:

And this is a question I posed to the group.

Tony:

Let's assume that, we take over a new team in whatever sector that we're in.

Tony:

And the assumption is that nobody's being who they really are.

Tony:

They're all being who they think they need to be in, in order to fit in

Tony:

order to Do what they think should.

Tony:

They're externally driven.

Tony:

They're behaving in a socially desirable way, but it's not their true intent.

Tony:

Their true intent is to serve their own purpose and their own needs.

Tony:

Let's say there's ten people, they're all independently ambitious.

Tony:

And they've come together to meet somebody else's objectives, an organization's

Tony:

objectives or a team's objectives.

Tony:

I suppose the question that I'm interested in discussing is, let's assume

Tony:

that's the case that the independent ambition is always one step away from

Tony:

negatively impacting the group's collective objective.

Tony:

I almost think that's the challenge that leaders face.

Tony:

How do we, get close enough to the individuals to reveal for us and

Tony:

for them these things that have got the potential to derail what the

Tony:

group needs to do to be successful.

Tony:

So I'm interested in what the group's perspectives are on that.

Rob:

Okay.

Rob:

So what I understood is, you've got a group of people that they're have

Rob:

all, they've all got divided goals.

Rob:

They've all got their own agendas.

Rob:

And what you're asking is how does the leader identify all those

Rob:

different agendas and stop that from derailing the core purpose?

Rob:

, Tony: yeah.

Rob:

How do we integrate, how do we serve everybody's needs in

Rob:

delivering the group's objectives?

Rob:

I think the

Matthew:

answer to that is that back to culture, if you have a culture with

Matthew:

an idea that's bigger than the people themselves, then they can buy into that.

Matthew:

And we talk about a place like Premier League football team with it, with

Matthew:

a culture and it, and, I've never done it, but surely it's, it doesn't,

Matthew:

it's, take an enormous amount of effort for people to understand the

Matthew:

idea of Manchester United, right?

Matthew:

That idea is clear to anyone who joins the team and it's an idea that's

Matthew:

bigger than them when they join.

Matthew:

Hopefully, sometimes it isn't.

Matthew:

And so everyone's got at least that in common.

Matthew:

And it's as long as that idea, stepping away from Premier League football

Matthew:

into the mundane world of business, as long as there's an idea that's bigger

Matthew:

than them, and they can buy into, then it's less likely you'll have problems

Matthew:

with individual ambition, because there's always an individual ambition

Matthew:

And ambition isn't just making a bunch of money and ambition is having

Matthew:

the schedule you like, or the lunch hour you like, or there's a hundred

Matthew:

different ways that ambition manifests.

Matthew:

But all that can be melded together as long as everyone can buy in to this

Matthew:

one large idea that's bigger than them.

Matthew:

And I think looking back in, in history.

Matthew:

This was the magic of the great leaders.

Matthew:

They could take people to places.

Matthew:

They didn't know they wanted.

Matthew:

They wanted to go.

Matthew:

They had big ideas.

Matthew:

They had, that were bigger than the people and you look at, something

Matthew:

like an an army, a military army.

Matthew:

Here's a place of high discipline.

Matthew:

Nobody has any say.

Matthew:

You do what you're told.

Matthew:

There's no freedom at all.

Matthew:

And yet, throughout history, millions have been pe people have marched to and fro,

Matthew:

dying for ideas so much bigger than them.

Matthew:

So that, that big idea, Is really critical in it, and a big idea is relative to a

Matthew:

premier football league team as it is to just a small retail store, right?

Matthew:

There's still a big idea.

Michalina:

I couldn't agree with this more Matthew it's about that purpose

Michalina:

and the shared purpose that you buy into and then you individually decide

Michalina:

this works for me and so I will work for this thing, not just myself.

Michalina:

And I think, Tony, I'm thinking about your context of high performers,

Michalina:

high achievers, highly ambitious people coming together to do

Michalina:

something together and how do you.

Michalina:

How do you almost tamper that to be able to have that bigger

Michalina:

culture, bigger purpose?

Michalina:

I think there is an element of psychometrics that we can now leverage

Michalina:

and really look at what are people's talents and strengths and personalities

Michalina:

and preferences and how to harness that power of each individual to, to get them

Michalina:

to then work for your shared purpose.

Michalina:

You've got people, there are so many psychometrics, but you've got people who

Michalina:

are goals and achievements orientated.

Michalina:

Give them the task that fit with your purpose and your goals that

Michalina:

will help you harness that passion and that drive and that ambition and

Michalina:

determination to achieve those goals.

Michalina:

Then you've got people who are peoples and feelings orientated and

Michalina:

they will do whatever it takes so others around them feel included.

Michalina:

And feel comfortable and they'll show empathy and care and all the things

Michalina:

that we could call a glue in a team.

Michalina:

So there you go, Rob.

Michalina:

Here's one for you.

Michalina:

You can note this down.

Michalina:

There's one for your equation.

Michalina:

But then you've got people who have absolutely data, process, clarity.

Michalina:

There are Rob's out there who wants equality.

Michalina:

They want equation and they want maths and they want everything crystal clear.

Michalina:

Those people are needed to give them the tasks that fit with that shared purpose.

Michalina:

So each of them is ambitious in a different way, harness

Michalina:

their powers and talents for their greater good, if you like.

Michalina:

And then they will be happy, everyone in a different way, but ultimately happy

Michalina:

or fulfilled or included and cared for.

Michalina:

That would be my view.

Michalina:

Has I got you thinking?

Michalina:

Sorry, have I got you thinking

Tony:

there?

Tony:

I do a lot of work in psychometrics.

Tony:

I look at individuals and try and divide them up into many

Tony:

component parts as possible.

Tony:

So psychometrics would be one, basic needs would be another, how are they motivated?

Tony:

What their goals are how are they are they naturally independently driven or are

Tony:

they more socially oriented, for example.

Tony:

Do they love to win or do they hate to lose?

Tony:

That's a massive question.

Tony:

I'll ask groups all the time and I'd ask you guys, have you thought about it?

Tony:

Do you love to win or do you hate to lose?

Tony:

Because depending on your, your outlook has a big saying.

Tony:

How my approach as a coach or as a manager of the team, and I'm using myself as an

Tony:

example, highly optimistic, big picture.

Tony:

Anything's possible.

Tony:

If I'm with the group, that's the opposite, who are very

Tony:

reserved and very risk averse.

Tony:

I'm the further I go down the path of shining a light on this great vision

Tony:

that I've got the further away they.

Tony:

They become so, I do agree Michalina that those individual understanding them and

Tony:

applying an approach that affords them that the opportunity to express themselves

Tony:

independently, I think is very important.

Saieed:

I like to take it a step further and I know we don't always have the

Saieed:

right environment or the time to do it, but I always say If the individual

Saieed:

doesn't understand themselves, how are you going to understand them?

Saieed:

So it's like that my philosophy has always been, and this is again because

Saieed:

of my personal experience, how I learned the hard way and was forced to

Saieed:

go on to a journey of self discovery.

Saieed:

Of sorts, it's can you take another person on that journey or can you

Saieed:

guide them throughout that journey?

Saieed:

And if you can, and you can help them understand themselves, you've got a half

Saieed:

decent chance of understanding them.

Saieed:

It's easy to say, let's find out what motivates someone.

Saieed:

But if that motivation is right, it's done in the right mindset.

Saieed:

Is it sustainable?

Saieed:

Is it short term?

Saieed:

Is it long term?

Saieed:

Everything comes into effect.

Saieed:

So the way, if I have a, say an individual coaching client, for example the reason

Saieed:

I mentioned well being, self awareness, self care and all those aspects is because

Saieed:

I want to take them, I want to guide them through this journey of self discovery

Saieed:

to truly try and understand what their values are, because often you find what

Saieed:

they think their values are and what their true values are very different.

Saieed:

Being able to understand their values after a certain amount of time.

Saieed:

patience, kindness, everything else that's involved that helps you clear their lens

Saieed:

and their perspective on how they see it.

Saieed:

And that could really help with that question, Tony, of do you

Saieed:

love to win or do you hate to lose?

Saieed:

Because that is a great indicator of that.

Saieed:

And once they get to that point, then it's all about alignment for me.

Saieed:

So that means.

Saieed:

We've got this vision.

Saieed:

We've got this purpose that's already predefined.

Saieed:

There's two ways I see organizations, for example, do this.

Saieed:

Some are very adamant to only hire the right talent because they think that if

Saieed:

I'm not going to hire the right people or the right talent, and this is the

Saieed:

equivalent to football teams, Tony, which I'm not going to name names.

Saieed:

You just go out and buy the most expensive players they can find because they feel

Saieed:

that put them together on everything else.

Saieed:

will sort itself out, which is often not the case.

Saieed:

And then you've got other organizations who say higher on skills, attitude,

Saieed:

competencies, that sort of thing.

Saieed:

I'm not going to argue for and against, but I'm saying depending

Saieed:

on what your vision and purpose is, you have to see which one's

Saieed:

a better fit for your situation.

Saieed:

But regardless of which one you choose.

Saieed:

You have to break down those walls.

Saieed:

You have to be able to get people to see themselves in a new light to be

Saieed:

able to then fully understand them.

Saieed:

And then once you've done that, you have a better idea of how you can align the

Saieed:

vision, the purpose, the goals to what their true values and motivations are.

Saieed:

And that necessitates the right culture.

Saieed:

So again, culture comes into the mix.

Saieed:

So for me, it breaks it down into stuff like culture, expectations,

Saieed:

communication, empowerment, and then leading that by example, because

Saieed:

despite your best intentions, if you're not leading by example,

Saieed:

you're going to lose it very soon.

Saieed:

So that's my two cents or

Rob:

two pennies.

Rob:

I think you've raised a really important point., what we think will make us happy

Rob:

is not the thing that will make us happy.

Rob:

I learned this back when I was studying happiness.

Rob:

Part of it is that we've got a flawed idea.

Rob:

And then in working with conflict, what I learned was, so say you've got a couple.

Rob:

And they're both, one wants this, and they go almost everything's right, if

Rob:

they would just do this, and then the other one's trying almost everything,

Rob:

if they would just do this, and they're both pulling each other, and

Rob:

they end up pulling each other apart.

Rob:

And what their conflict is based on is not actually themselves.

Rob:

It's a lot of their conflict is based on the assumptions that someone else has

Rob:

given them somewhere that they've learned that they've misinterpreted or some dogma

Rob:

that they've been given by someone else.

Rob:

When you actually boil down and you look for a conflict, what actually

Rob:

happens is you've got two points, but it actually becomes a triangle

Rob:

because the thing that they really thought that they wanted wasn't.

Rob:

There was a deeper need.

Rob:

People basically are looking for just a few things.

Rob:

Some highly ambitious normally means they want status, they want

Rob:

respect, they want recognition.

Rob:

And it's something like that.

Rob:

And we fixate on one way of getting it.

Rob:

And through the process of trying to achieve it.

Rob:

You refine your idea.

Rob:

In the beginning we meet with a purpose, but I think that purpose gets shaped

Rob:

by the people and in the same way the culture gets shaped by the people.

Rob:

It is alignment, it's the ability to have those discussions and, as it

Rob:

says, people often aren't aware of, what drives them and what they really

Rob:

value, until they meet enough friction so that they become aware of it.

Michalina:

Very interesting what you've just said.

Michalina:

Rob, and I'm reflecting on this.

Michalina:

What comes to me is the size of the team that I would add to this conversation.

Michalina:

What you've just mentioned is very much around two people, three people,

Michalina:

four people, small team, where you can go this deep and you can

Michalina:

analyze the values, the behaviors the beliefs the context, the cultural

Michalina:

conditioning, economical conditioning and everything else that comes into it.

Michalina:

And then if we scale that up into teams of 10 and 20 or 200, that's impossible.

Michalina:

You need to know what you're there for, what are your objectives and

Michalina:

crack on and what are the general rules so we don't kill each other.

Michalina:

And we somehow police that what's right and what's wrong and when

Michalina:

are you in and when are you out.

Michalina:

So I think size of the team comes into play here for me.

Rob:

When I think of someone who led a change, I think of martin luther

Rob:

king, He led a change of a huge amount of people and I think it was because

Rob:

his work forced him to listen to so many disparate people, who all felt

Rob:

there was like a general zeitgeist.

Rob:

And I think when Matthew's talking about great leaders through

Rob:

history, what they had picked up on is like a general zeitgeist, a

Rob:

general feeling that they tap into.

Rob:

Martin Luther King had been talking in many small groups of, about

Rob:

a dream and his, I have a dream speech was completely unprompted.

Rob:

It was someone yelled to him Martin tell them about the dream.

Rob:

And he launched into this, but he'd obviously built up through

Rob:

years of talking and listening.

Rob:

And as you piece together all those different bits, you get those things like

Rob:

people at their core want the same thing.

Rob:

They want to be happy.

Rob:

They want to belong.

Rob:

They want to be valued.

Rob:

They want some status.

Rob:

They want respect.

Rob:

They want to feel important.

Rob:

They want to feel that they're contributing.

Rob:

So all of those things, there's, they're fairly human, fairly common human.

Rob:

Dynamics and when we can like a visionary is someone who can articulate a way

Rob:

of okay, this as this group, these are our significant problems as a group.

Rob:

This is the common thread.

Rob:

This is the common solution.

Rob:

So I think in that sense, we can, we can't do it as specifically.

Rob:

But someone can identify a problem.

Rob:

And a vision for a solution.

Rob:

And I think that's what Steve Jobs did.

Rob:

Steve Jobs was able to somehow say, this is what we want.

Rob:

Let's make it simple.

Rob:

Let's make something that everyone's going to love.

Rob:

Steve Jobs

Matthew:

had an idea, he had a really big idea that people bought into before

Matthew:

they bought into the actual gadgets.

Matthew:

His idea was freedom.

Matthew:

He believed that technology would free people, it would be the

Matthew:

ultimate freedom, individuals.

Matthew:

And this is what he was selling.

Matthew:

And these iPhones and other gadgets were just tools to get people there.

Matthew:

So again, we come to this idea of the idea.

Matthew:

And in, in the sense of Jobs or King, they were big ideas as Michalina says.

Matthew:

You get down in a group of 5, 10, 15, 20 people.

Matthew:

It's still the idea.

Matthew:

And I think the word she used was purpose, right?

Matthew:

There still has to be an idea, a purpose, an overarching purpose.

Matthew:

Umbrella under which everyone can get under

Michalina:

and we're very firmly in the zone of massive changes to, in societies

Michalina:

changes to our ways of thinking and we can look at how communism ended.

Michalina:

We can look at how apartheid ended.

Michalina:

We can look at all the historical changes and I always believe that we don't look.

Michalina:

We tend to look back often enough to learn from those things to then

Michalina:

utilize them and bring them forward.

Michalina:

We tend to just reinvent things rather than look back and learn.

Michalina:

We tend to forget that we've got people who are a lot older

Michalina:

than us who have the wisdom and experience and they've done it all.

Michalina:

And we just disregard all of that and we think that technology and

Michalina:

new discoveries will help us.

Michalina:

And then we say that we just need to fail more often and celebrate that.

Michalina:

Pop style psychology, but that's the other side.

Michalina:

What I want to say is that if we bring all those visions and societal changes

Michalina:

back to reality of a corporate world, we've got one large business with

Michalina:

different business units in a different services, different product, different

Michalina:

functions, and they all compete.

Michalina:

And they have microcultures and they all have VPs and managing directors

Michalina:

wanting different things and pursuing different agendas within the business.

Michalina:

And then you've got hundreds of people just going in for all

Michalina:

sorts of reasons to do the jobs.

Michalina:

Some of them buy into purpose, some of them just want a

Michalina:

pay at the end of the month.

Michalina:

They want to do 9 to 5, feel good about what they've produced, close

Michalina:

the day and be with their families.

Michalina:

So it's a bit about Back to the motivations and what encourages to

Michalina:

do certain things But I still think that when it comes to bigger teams,

Michalina:

there is no place for such in depth Individuality and if you do go for your

Michalina:

life unconscious, you don't really know who you are You're just a collection of

Michalina:

beliefs you've acquired for your life.

Michalina:

That I'm afraid is your problem That is your responsibility to dig deep,

Michalina:

analyze all of this, raise your own awareness and decide whether or not

Michalina:

you want to do something about it.

Michalina:

That is not a business's problem.

Michalina:

That is not the company's problem or a leadership problem.

Michalina:

A leadership problem for a leader who deals with a team, These are different

Michalina:

problems to your own responsibility, your own self discovery and everything else.

Michalina:

And if you are misaligned to your point, Said, if you're not doing

Michalina:

the right thing that you should be doing, that is your responsibility.

Michalina:

You can earn money somewhere else.

Michalina:

Just go and find a place where you will feel that belonging, where you

Michalina:

will buy into that shared purpose.

Michalina:

And I think we don't talk about this offer enough.

Michalina:

We tend to think nowadays that.

Michalina:

We choose the company for great money and great benefits, great working conditions.

Michalina:

We all want to be working hybrid or just be at home.

Michalina:

And then we go, Oh, but my values are not aligned.

Michalina:

You've chosen the job for a paycheck.

Michalina:

So what did you expect?

Michalina:

So I think there is a bit about your own personal responsibility and bringing

Michalina:

this down to e things start with you.

Michalina:

If you live unconsciously for your life, that is your

Michalina:

responsibility, not corporate, not leadership, not company values.

Michalina:

So yeah, sorry.

Michalina:

Just a bit of a rant there.

Michalina:

Saieed you're laughing.

Michalina:

Go for it.

Saieed:

I completely understand what you mean, and you're right when it

Saieed:

comes because a business is there to be a business, basically, it's

Saieed:

not, you're not there for therapy.

Saieed:

So I can understand that.

Saieed:

But when you take it to a leadership position, and this is my own personal

Saieed:

thinking and my personal belief system, I often see a leadership

Saieed:

position as a privileged one, instead of a title and position.

Saieed:

I don't know whether it's not so much, it's your responsibility.

Saieed:

It's more what can I do as a leader to develop you and create a

Saieed:

future leader, if that makes sense.

Saieed:

So as part of that, I have to try and look at taking people on

Saieed:

that journey of self discovery.

Saieed:

Regardless of it being the right opportunity or the right setting or the

Saieed:

right person, I'm still going to give it a shot because I think it's worth it.

Saieed:

Because I think that's, and that's because someone took a shot on

Saieed:

me when I needed it the most.

Saieed:

And for that reason, it's instilled in me that I can make people,

Saieed:

if I can, okay, let's, we're not going to get into the whole, if

Saieed:

you can change people discussion.

Saieed:

But if I can provide or guide or coach or consult or catalyze.

Saieed:

Someone to take him on that journey, then, by all means, I'm very happy to do that.

Saieed:

But I do agree with you, Michelino, when it comes to a large team

Saieed:

size, you don't have the time.

Saieed:

And that's why I said it really depends on if you do have the time and the setting.

Saieed:

To be able to do that because of large organization, you just don't have the

Saieed:

time to be able to do that with everyone.

Saieed:

So I think you have these certain knobs that I like to see when it

Saieed:

comes to expectation, empowerment, and then it's like you turn it either

Saieed:

down or you turn it up depending on the setting that you're in.

Saieed:

To suit the environment.

Saieed:

As much as you can, but the intent and willingness to be able to do that.

Saieed:

I tried to think a bit differently.

Saieed:

So it transcends the it's your responsibility.

Saieed:

That's your problem.

Saieed:

Go and figure yourself out.

Saieed:

And this is my, sort of me with my recovery hat, accountability coach

Saieed:

hat talking to say some people just need that push and they need

Saieed:

to be able to test because they can't figure it out by themselves.

Saieed:

They need someone to help them with that.

Saieed:

But the willingness needs to be there.

Michalina:

I love that.

Michalina:

I love what you've just said.

Michalina:

And I think these are two different conversations.

Michalina:

One is the personal responsibility and the other is creating a culture that

Michalina:

allows you to enable you to do things.

Michalina:

But it's not a leader's responsibility to be a coach mentor and a

Michalina:

therapist when it's needed and a business mind and everything else.

Michalina:

Yes, leadership is situational and you.

Michalina:

You've got leaders who are this way inclined and those who are not

Michalina:

and they're expert in other areas.

Michalina:

Let's not glorify that role either that we need to make sure that we play to our

Michalina:

strengths, whether we are leaders or not.

Michalina:

But I think there is a piece around organizations being equipped to

Michalina:

signpost you to employee assistance.

Michalina:

Program to all sorts of insurances and support and network and experts of being

Michalina:

made available to you when you need those.

Michalina:

And yes, sometimes there are those moments when someone just has the right

Michalina:

conversation at the right time and that changes your life, but still your

Michalina:

responsibility to do something about it.

Michalina:

So I would split those two as to what is the good leadership.

Michalina:

About really, and we could spend hours and hours talking about this and understanding

Michalina:

back to context and everything else, but also personal responsibility.

Matthew:

In the words of the great American philosopher,

Matthew:

Facebook it's complicated.

Michalina:

Correct.

Michalina:

I actually studied philosophy.

Michalina:

I love that.

Michalina:

I love that joke here.

Rob:

I'll just

Tony:

pick up on it.

Tony:

Said on the, I think when there's the perception that nobody's got any time

Tony:

because we're busy, these things are the first things that get pushed away.

Tony:

People talk about soft skills or they're labeled as soft skills.

Tony:

They're actually the first things that get avoided because they're

Tony:

actually difficult to deal with.

Tony:

Having difficult conversations is challenging for people.

Tony:

It needs training.

Tony:

It's trainable, quite easily trainable to help people get.

Tony:

Better quickly.

Tony:

I'm not trying to teach anyone how to do their jobs here, but I think when

Tony:

people use the objection that we just don't have time to do this is the time

Tony:

when they need to start doing it the most and to find little pockets of

Tony:

meaningful time each week, to have a different set of conversations than

Tony:

the typical conversations that are being had around the square tables

Tony:

that are held every day and every week in these big complex organizations.

Tony:

I think there is a way to help, equip many more managers.

Tony:

And leaders, and you can cross over the whole leader management debate, is

Tony:

fine to have a conversation about that, but you can equip people really simply.

Tony:

Going deep with everyone and taking them all on a personal journey clearly

Tony:

is not possible, but taking the masses on a more educated and, fulfilling

Tony:

journey, that's going to help them reveal a little bit more about themselves.

Tony:

Is massively achievable and it doesn't take a lot of time to do it.

Tony:

I think the upside.

Tony:

I was thinking of it this way.

Tony:

If I'm, if I take my management style into every situation and expect everyone

Tony:

to respond in the same way, which is what happens in football all the time.

Tony:

They go and hire a manager that failed last week and got sacked.

Tony:

They'll hire him in a new job this week.

Tony:

He'll bring exactly the same approach into the new role.

Tony:

And let's just see which way the wind's blowing.

Tony:

And sometimes they'll get fortune will favor them, and other times not.

Tony:

And that's not to discredit anybody.

Tony:

It happens a lot.

Tony:

I think to, for me to expect as a manager that everybody must just

Tony:

follow the way that I do things.

Tony:

And this is the way I lead you, you follow me.

Tony:

I think there's a big piece of work that we can do to change that dynamic.

Tony:

Because the small adjustments that I make towards these people that I'm.

Tony:

Responsible for helping or supporting or leading or managing, might be a

Tony:

little bit uncomfortable for me to step outside of who I am just for a minute,

Tony:

but it might be a game changer for you.

Tony:

It might change your world just to know that actually that little just

Tony:

that one shift that you made the way you approach me differently.

Tony:

It's just set my world on fire.

Tony:

I'm now, wow, this guy understands me.

Tony:

He's he heard me.

Tony:

He sees me whatever it might be.

Tony:

I think there's no shortcuts.

Tony:

I think leadership's a practice and you have to be immersed in it all

Tony:

the time and make tons of mistakes.

Tony:

But there are shortcuts, I think, to help more people in big,

Tony:

complex, dynamic organizations have better conversations and beat.

Tony:

Very quickly, better equipped to navigate these really complex situations that

Tony:

they find themselves in without it.

Tony:

Wow.

Tony:

It's difficult, right?

Tony:

It's, young managers who step up from being a high performer

Tony:

is suddenly managing with.

Tony:

ill equipped to manage the dynamics of the team.

Tony:

I just feel for them.

Tony:

It's a tough gig.

Michalina:

And Tony, I couldn't agree with you more on this.

Michalina:

I've spent 10 years dealing with the dark side of people, dealing with all

Michalina:

the problems the wellbeing problems the sicknesses, the absences, the

Michalina:

performance improvement side of things, the grievances, conflict, mediations,

Michalina:

employment tribunals, all that kind of.

Michalina:

Stuff that we don't really want to talk about and absolutely in every single

Michalina:

case, in every single situation, you could trace it back to leadership capability.

Michalina:

You can trace it back to managers conversations, the right conversations

Michalina:

at the right time, and you can trace it back to an employee being.

Michalina:

entitled to certain things being done for them and then taking responsibility or

Michalina:

not taking responsibility for the actions.

Michalina:

You can literally trace every single problem back to those moments and

Michalina:

I've seen this time and time again.

Michalina:

And would you say about feeling sorry for managers?

Michalina:

Absolutely.

Michalina:

This is such a.

Michalina:

Ungrateful job when you step into that arena and suddenly you have to

Michalina:

be everyone you have to be a business analyst and a business head and you have

Michalina:

to be great with people and you have to be great with numbers and you have to

Michalina:

Somehow be a time magician to squeeze all of that in and look like you're

Michalina:

not tired And doing the right thing at the right time and spot someone whose

Michalina:

life is about to change, that is hard.

Michalina:

And I think there is a lot around that capability and support, but when you say

Michalina:

that you can help on a bigger scale, yes and no, yes, you can have coaches on hand,

Michalina:

you can have training campaigns in place, but at the end of the day, it's about

Michalina:

that personal responsibility, whereas you do something well or you don't, and

Michalina:

whether you gel as a team or you don't.

Michalina:

And it's back to something bigger than just you two, or the three

Michalina:

of you, or the four of you.

Tony:

We could pick up that conversation because I do think

Tony:

there are Easily applied tools that can equip unskilled people to become

Tony:

more highly skilled very quickly.

Tony:

No, absolutely.

Michalina:

Absolutely.

Michalina:

To some extent.

Michalina:

To some extent.

Rob:

Part of the culture and part of it, part of the whole onboarding

Rob:

needs to be a clarity of what are the responsibilities of each.

Rob:

And I think what Tony's talking about is I, there's a threshold, and

Rob:

typically most organizations, most managers spend somewhere from two

Rob:

to 10 hours a week on dealing with conflict, directly or indirectly,

Michalina:

Oh, not dealing with it, running away from it.

Michalina:

Yeah.

Rob:

Yeah.

Rob:

And that's part of the problem.

Rob:

Because there is a lack of skills and a lack of, confidence, which I

Rob:

really think for a new time manager, it's really a change in identity.

Rob:

And I think most of the struggle is around the pressure of what other

Rob:

people are thinking of them and feeling do I, am I living up to it?

Rob:

Am I good enough?

Rob:

And all of that fears get in the way.

Rob:

You can't fix everyone's problems.

Rob:

You don't do that for everyone, but when you are in that position is say HR or

Rob:

your, or a leader and you're dealing with sometimes that can be incredibly

Rob:

costly to where you don't want to lose someone or you have to lose someone.

Rob:

And there's a lot riding on that.

Rob:

If there is a mapped out, path of what you can do, then it may only be.

Rob:

Going back to start Manchester United, yeah, Manchester United is

Rob:

a bigger idea than most players, but they had this problem with

Rob:

Cristiano Ronaldo who believed he was bigger than Manchester United.

Rob:

And if in that kind of situation, it all depends on how valuable

Rob:

the relationship is, and if you're dealing, with what's Ronaldo.

Rob:

20, 50 million a year.

Rob:

That's a, that's worth a lot.

Rob:

And having a mapped out route of where you can go can help in the,

Rob:

it's not going to be used for everyone because it doesn't need to be used

Rob:

for everyone, but it's a threshold of where it's necessary to be needed.

Rob:

That's what

Tony:

I mean by aligned intention.

Tony:

So let's say a new manager comes into that scenario, which is what happened.

Tony:

So in that scenario, this situation was already playing out and a new manager

Tony:

was brought in to that situation to now navigate, try and get the team performing

Tony:

better and as managers are charged to do.

Tony:

And no doubt,

Tony:

Took all that responsibility on his shoulders to try and tackle that

Tony:

the best way he thought possible.

Tony:

Now, if there's no clarity around aligned intention about that, so if

Tony:

we've got two fundamentally different beliefs that the owner is selling so

Tony:

many Cristiano Ronaldo shirts that he wants that player to play and the

Tony:

manager doesn't, if they haven't had that conversation at that level to align on

Tony:

intention, then it's Failure by design.

Tony:

Now we, none of us know whether that those conversations took place,

Tony:

but from the outside, looking in, you can see the impact of division

Tony:

within the ranks on pitch, off pitch, media commentary, fan commentary.

Tony:

So aligned intention.

Tony:

So forget culture, which is this big, ever evolving, moving feast

Tony:

of people coming in and going out.

Tony:

Fundamentally, let's decide.

Tony:

Are we a club that wants to win or are we a club that wants to make money?

Tony:

And if it's both, then how does that?

Tony:

What is it?

Tony:

What are the nuances that were actually agreed on so that we can make

Tony:

really clear decisions that fit that?

Tony:

Because until we've got the capability to do that, people's.

Tony:

opinions about how it's going are going to matter way more than they should.

Tony:

And you just get this noise and it's just an impossible, it's an impossible

Tony:

job under those circumstances.

Tony:

It

Matthew:

just runs, it runs out of anybody's control at that point.

Matthew:

Yeah, there's it's out of control, right?

Matthew:

As they found out.

Tony:

Yes.

Tony:

And they're still finding out chaos.

Matthew:

And they may, and they and they may have damaged their

Matthew:

brand for a generation, right?

Tony:

It is a really complex and, interesting to be looking

Tony:

at it from the outside in.

Tony:

There are clearly players that have bought into the big idea of Man United.

Tony:

Absolutely.

Tony:

It's this big thing that they know the history, they know the heritage,

Tony:

and they're either comfortable with the demands on them to live up

Tony:

to that heritage, or they're not.

Tony:

They're massively challenged by it and need a load of support to, to be

Tony:

nurtured through it to become who they could possibly be, bigger than they

Tony:

ever thought was possible, let's say.

Tony:

And you can see all these people fighting with themselves to show themselves in

Tony:

the best possible light under these extraordinary complex circumstances, with

Tony:

all the scrutiny of the world on them.

Tony:

Real match pressure as I would call it.

Tony:

And I think sometimes we forget that these are

Tony:

players between, let's say a large chunk of them between 18 and 25 years old.

Tony:

So they're not even fully matured.

Tony:

male adults yet.

Tony:

They're under extraordinary amounts of, self discovery.

Tony:

They must be learning so much, so many things as they go through this.

Tony:

I look at the individual and go this guy's 23 years old.

Tony:

And because the game demands a certain level of performance in order to succeed,

Tony:

The 23 year old who's trying to find his way in this murky world is getting

Tony:

treated by the external people exactly the same way as somebody that's been

Tony:

doing it for 10 years successfully.

Tony:

Because the game doesn't discriminate, it says you must be able to do

Tony:

this, and for Manchester United you must be able to do it this way.

Tony:

And if you can't, we don't care how old you are, on your bike, not good enough.

Tony:

And it's a fascinating thing to behold, but it's also a, quite an

Tony:

uncomfortable watch as well for me.

Rob:

I think there's a there's a, we can look at Manchester United and Liverpool

Rob:

have alternated as the big teams.

Rob:

So you had Manchester United in the sixties with the Busby babes,

Rob:

or the fifties and the sixties.

Rob:

And then after Matt Busby retired, they just drifted off, got relegated.

Rob:

They were in the shade for 10, 20 years until Sir Alex Ferguson came along.

Rob:

The the seventies Liverpool took over and then dominated football for the seventies

Rob:

and the eighties, and then suddenly they haven't won a title until 30 years later.

Rob:

So Juergen Klopp took over and he took over.

Rob:

What?

Rob:

When Liverpool were like, man United are now, and.

Rob:

For me, he's the poster boy for unifying the team.

Rob:

And what he identified was.

Rob:

Liverpool had this big reputation, and players felt, overall, they

Rob:

didn't feel they were good enough.

Rob:

They were continually being compared to the 80s and the fans were like, they'd

Rob:

lost faith and so as soon as someone made a mistake, they were on their back.

Rob:

So there was all this pressure that they were a big club, but they were a

Rob:

big club that had lost their way, and the players had become more average.

Rob:

And what Jurgen Klopp did was he recognised He was offered the job of

Rob:

Man United, but he didn't want it.

Rob:

And he didn't want, because they said to him, we'll buy all these players.

Rob:

We'll make you, we'll make the glamorous team.

Rob:

And he's no, that's not what I want.

Rob:

I want everyone to be a family.

Rob:

And he looked at the team and he said they just lack belief.

Rob:

And they were all for, okay, there's a new manager coming in.

Rob:

They're going to get rid of me because I'm not good enough.

Rob:

He's going to buy a whole load of new players.

Rob:

And he's no, you're good enough.

Rob:

He worked to unify everyone in the background.

Rob:

He worked to get the crowd over.

Rob:

So there was a, an instance in against Stoke where Liverpool drew

Rob:

with Stoke and Stoke is like a low team who wouldn't be expected to

Rob:

be in the same league as Liverpool.

Rob:

And.

Rob:

He brought all the team over to applaud the crowd and everyone was looking at him.

Rob:

So what's he doing?

Rob:

Applauding mediocrity?

Rob:

That's they shouldn't be Applauding that and what I didn't understand was he was

Rob:

building the bond with the crowd and he was saying to the crowd You he was getting

Rob:

the players to say look we are one And his work was saying everyone, we are

Rob:

one, this is, Liverpool has a culture, this is the standard of Liverpool,

Rob:

we are Liverpool, we work as one.

Rob:

And he built the team up.

Rob:

So now with Manchester City, they challenge mostly for everything.

Rob:

They've won the title again.

Rob:

And they are, one of the best teams in the country.

Rob:

And it was by giving the players confidence by building

Rob:

that culture around them.

Rob:

And it was by unify everyone as one, that everyone had one goal and

Rob:

everyone, the backroom staff, and it was, it meant his job was to unify

Rob:

people to make people feel included, but also to take where, like other

Rob:

managers, like Brendan Rogers had been fighting with the transfer committee.

Rob:

One of the one of the ways they turned it around was their recruits

Rob:

and they were able to bring people in and make them better.

Rob:

Because they were part of a system and no Liverpool player has gone away and

Rob:

been better anywhere else than they are within that team and that structure.

Rob:

So I think it's when you can unify everyone and you give people

Rob:

belief on when people are divided and they don't see a purpose and

Rob:

they don't feel part of things.

Rob:

That's when supporters are, like getting on the backs and

Rob:

there's division in everywhere.

Rob:

And that's what I look at.

Rob:

Manchester United is under Ferguson.

Rob:

They were united.

Rob:

He, and sometimes the culture comes from the leader where he has such

Rob:

a strong personality and a strong set of values that they create that.

Rob:

sense of purpose and mission.

Rob:

That's

Matthew:

the that's the idea of vision again.

Matthew:

And it's, and you see it in business all the time where the company or the

Matthew:

leaders of the company have a have a vision that's not connected to the people.

Matthew:

that work under the vision.

Matthew:

They can't buy into it.

Matthew:

It's too grandiose or it's something they don't believe in.

Matthew:

And this disconnect happens and it just becomes cultural chaos.

Matthew:

So you need a vision, as you were saying about Liverpool after the Busby era.

Matthew:

You need a, you can't let the vision get away from you.

Matthew:

People have to be able to believe it and buy into it or it's all it is vision.

Matthew:

It's not an idea anymore.

Matthew:

It's not an idea people can understand, believe, or buy into.

Matthew:

It's just you yapping away about something.

Matthew:

Or your culture yapping away about something and you see it all the time

Matthew:

in business and it's the difference between really, you may notice a

Matthew:

new product or a new service or a hot new thing enters the market.

Matthew:

And there's 20 competitors.

Matthew:

Suddenly they're on every street corner.

Matthew:

And then within about 3 5 years, magically there's 3.

Matthew:

Where did everybody go?

Matthew:

Those 3 had a vision.

Matthew:

And something to unify in an umbrella under which everybody could

Matthew:

get under and the others didn't.

Matthew:

They're all selling the same thing.

Matthew:

I don't know what it was like in Europe, but the big vape craze

Matthew:

hit North America here and there was vape stores on every corner.

Matthew:

And they're all gone now.

Matthew:

Except for one or two, because they had a vision, they had data they had a

Matthew:

they had a culture that could hang on through the competitive nature of it.

Matthew:

And that all the time.

Saieed:

I think me and Rob had this conversation not long ago when we

Saieed:

were talking about Elon Musk and his, and the way he has this grand vision.

Saieed:

Basically, which is normally spawn about as well.

Saieed:

But another key component to that is the leadership team who take that vision

Saieed:

and translate it into, objectives into stuff that's tangible into process,

Saieed:

into method and how they then lead people under that to be able to.

Saieed:

Align everyone toward that vision, because like you say, Matthew,

Saieed:

it's having a vision is not enough.

Saieed:

You need that support.

Saieed:

And I think that's where that example is relevant to football teams as well.

Saieed:

Because all we see from the TV screens or the stadiums is.

Saieed:

a manager and 11 players on the field.

Saieed:

A lot of people don't know what the names are of the assistant managers and

Saieed:

all the other staff that are working behind the scenes and what they do, which

Saieed:

could be very, obviously is significant.

Saieed:

It could be as significant as well, a lot of the times.

Saieed:

I would add that to the mix where.

Saieed:

Not only the vision is important and the culture is important and

Saieed:

the alignment, you need that support network or that support team to be

Saieed:

able to take that and then translate it and make it into something

Saieed:

that's measurable and achievable.

Saieed:

I

Michalina:

think from my perspective.

Michalina:

I'm sorry.

Michalina:

Sorry, Michalina.

Tony:

Please.

Tony:

No, please go on.

Michalina:

There you go.

Michalina:

Thank you.

Michalina:

I actually wanted to suggest that we take this conversation out of football

Michalina:

and make it a little bit more inclusive because this is not about football.

Michalina:

This is not about one set of culture and one setting of how do

Michalina:

we make the perfect football team.

Michalina:

We talk about variety of teams.

Michalina:

We talk about those ingredients that Rob needs for his equation.

Michalina:

We say there are different ones, but they don't come up to equation.

Michalina:

I think there is a there is a piece around shared purpose and shared goals

Michalina:

and buying into what we are all here to do at the lowest levels of our

Michalina:

organization, team, a smaller business, medium business or a large business.

Michalina:

I think There is so much around diversity of thought diversity of expectations and

Michalina:

mixed mixed backgrounds and mixed ways of thinking of what these things mean for us,

Michalina:

that we've got a lot of work to do at this level, and a shared purpose for a mother

Michalina:

who's returning from maternity leave.

Michalina:

And coming back to the workplace, it's very different to a VP who's worked

Michalina:

in the same organization for 20 years or to someone who's just come in on a

Michalina:

contract to do a specific piece of work.

Michalina:

It's very different to someone who's disabled or has mental health

Michalina:

problems and needs that support and reasonable adjustments, for example.

Michalina:

It's very different to someone who's going for menopause and needs to deal with a

Michalina:

lot of things that are very personal and very difficult to deal with while still

Michalina:

performing at the professional level.

Michalina:

So for me there is this element of a shared belief that we're part of

Michalina:

the team and what does that vision strategy and culture mean to me at

Michalina:

this particular time of my life.

Michalina:

But also there is a moment of that support and understanding And holding

Michalina:

space for each other to, to go through those different stages, whether this is

Michalina:

having a young family or just starting out as a graduate or going through

Michalina:

life changes, divorce or, tragic death in the family and dealing with that.

Michalina:

And then still being able to contribute as a team member.

Michalina:

There are so many more.

Michalina:

Complexity still to, to talk about what this means to be a unified team.

Rob:

It's complicated.

Tony:

It is complicated.

Tony:

Yeah.

Tony:

And I was sorry to take it back to football.

Tony:

No, it's just, it's important.

Tony:

I think in relation to the, because what struck me when Rob was talking about

Tony:

Klopp's approach to taking the players to the fans when they lost a game that they

Tony:

shouldn't have lost, there's a humility in that and there's a normalization of.

Tony:

Of humans, we lose, we don't always win.

Tony:

It's actually real.

Tony:

We're in it together.

Tony:

And I think

Tony:

the business demand doesn't discriminate.

Tony:

We need to be able to perform at a minimum level to deliver

Tony:

success for the organization.

Tony:

Now, some days I'll feel I'm up for that.

Tony:

I'm ready to go.

Tony:

And other days circumstances will prevail that make it more difficult

Tony:

for me to step up and be at my best.

Tony:

When I need to be at my best, that happens in sport.

Tony:

It happens in business at every level.

Tony:

And I think that the biggest challenge I see between the sporting

Tony:

arena and the business arena is in sport to be at your best.

Tony:

It's once a week and everything's geared up to preparing for that.

Tony:

So after you've performed, whether you won or lost, you then get to analyze

Tony:

it, you get to recover, you get to train, you get to retrain, you get

Tony:

more information, you get supported.

Tony:

If you're not feeling great or you get the psychology, it's all there.

Tony:

And then you need to go again a week later.

Tony:

Whereas in the corporate world, in the business world, there's almost

Tony:

an expectation that every day.

Tony:

We're back at it, and we need to be at match pace again and again.

Tony:

There's a relentlessness to it.

Tony:

And I think we need to, picking up on all of those things that you were

Tony:

saying, Michalina, is to normalize those moments or those periods of time

Tony:

when people are just not at their best.

Tony:

It's normal.

Tony:

But, under the umbrella that the business needs you to be able to deliver a minimum.

Tony:

It's like you say, Matthew, it is indeed very complicated.

Rob:

Thank you all for being here.

Rob:

We've all brought different opinions, different strengths

Rob:

and different visions and ideas.

Rob:

But hopefully we've all learned something and refined our thinking in the process

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