What if the love you thought you had... was actually control?

She left a 22-year relationship with nothing but a futon, an air mattress, and her kids, then built a life beyond anything she imagined.

But how do you know if you’re living with a narcissist? And what does it really take to break free?

In this episode, I sit down with Denise Kavaliauskas to uncover the silent signs of toxic relationships—and the mindset shift that can set you free.

Living and the damage caused by a narcissistic partner. She lived it. She can help people. She helps people all the time. And I think you will find our conversation about narcissism and what it is, some signs of it and how to get out of it to be interesting and fascinating. And while it may not be to help you, I guarantee you can take this information and help one of your friends.

So listen in.

Jonathan Breeden: Hello and welcome to another edition of The Best of Johnston County Podcast. I'm your host, Jonathan Breeden, and on today's episode we have Denise Kavaliauskas. Oh my goodness. Lithuanian name. I'm told Kavaliauskas of the Life After Narcissism Foundation.

We're gonna talk a little bit about what narcissism is or to force coaching business and maybe some tips on how to get out if you happen to be in a relationship with a narcissist. 'cause that's often the hardest part. But before we get to that. Wanna, I like you to like, follow and subscribe to this podcast wherever you see it, whether it be on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, LinkedIn, TikTok, or any of the other social media channels of The Best of Johnston County Podcast.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Thank you. Happy to be here.

Jonathan Breeden: All right. I know I messed up your name. How do you say your last name?

Denise Kavaliauskas: Kavaliauskas

Jonathan Breeden: Kavaliauskas. All right. I've been practicing and I still kind of maybe messed it up anyway.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Totally, okay.

Jonathan Breeden: So cool. So. Tell us the audience about, you know, who you are, where you're from, what you do.

Denise Kavaliauskas: So my name is Denise Kavaliauskas. That is my married name originally, I'm Denise Clark, and originally from South Florida.

But my husband lives in Johnston County. That's how I ended up here in Johnston County.

Jonathan Breeden: Oh

Jonathan Breeden: Well, that's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. So, did you go to school in Florida?

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yes.

Jonathan Breeden: What kind of, what school did you go to?

Denise Kavaliauskas: Elementary. Okay. Middle high school.

Jonathan Breeden: I mean, did you go to college or any of that's

Denise Kavaliauskas: Junior college.

Yeah,

Jonathan Breeden: Junior college. All right.

Denise Kavaliauskas: No universities.

Jonathan Breeden: I gotcha you

Denise Kavaliauskas: yeah.

Jonathan Breeden: I gotcha you. Well, what kind of jobs did you have before you got into divorce coaching business?

Denise Kavaliauskas: Well, I ran my ex's business down in Florida, which was air conditioning and appliances. I ran all of the inside part, he did the service part, so the marketing, the accounting, the bookkeeping, like all that stuff is what I did for.

The last job I had.

Jonathan Breeden: Oh, cool, cool.

Denise Kavaliauskas: When I came here, I did medical sales.

Jonathan Breeden: Oh, okay.

Jonathan Breeden: Okay, well that's great.

Denise Kavaliauskas: For my accounts. Yeah.

Jonathan Breeden: Right. So what made you want to start a business called "The Life After Narcissism Foundation". I find that's just a great name, like, you know what I mean? So what made you come up with that idea and what was your goals behind it?

Denise Kavaliauskas: Because I live a life all caps AFTER NARCISSISM. So the name came from my experience of being in such a tormenting abusive relationship coming out of it and totally recovering from it. Now, happily married to the man of my dreams and like living a totally different life, like a dream life 'cause if the old me would look at me now, I would've been like, that's no way possible to achieve.

And here I am. So that's where the name came from. So I teach my clients how to create a life after narcissism, to be free from it forever.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yes.

Jonathan Breeden: So this business, well, it's called Life After Narcissism, really is a divorce coaching business. Yes. So talk a little bit about what you do, what services you provide how you help people.

Denise Kavaliauskas: So I help my clients create a mindset when a divorcing a narciss assistant in court, high child high conflict child custody cases, and I help them create a mindset coming out of the victim abuse of consciousness. And once they're out of that consciousness, they're no longer matching with the narcissist.

So once that happens, it's a totally different ballpark and it's a game, as you know, the whole thing is a game. So I teach 'em how to play the game to where they're winning and not being at the effect of the game that the narcissist is playing. So I coach them on that and basically just teaching them how to get out of the victim abuser consciousness, because once they do that, it's.

Jonathan Breeden: Right, right. Yep.

Denise Kavaliauskas: They just gotta go through the steps to,

Jonathan Breeden: right. So what are some of those steps to get out of the victim abuser relationship?

Denise Kavaliauskas: So I tell them where they're coming, where their energy is when they come to me, because their energy is always in fear. They're very scared of the threats that the narcissist is making or the abuse that they've been through.

Shame, guilt, blame, like all of those lower levels of emotions, consciousness. And so once I have them recognize like, this is where your energy has been and this is, and you've been in reactive energy to the narcissist, once they can recognize where they've been, then I show them where they can go. Once I show them where they can go, then I teach them with my tools of how to go that way up into the higher levels of consciousness so that there's no game.

Jonathan Breeden: Okay. Yeah. And the, I go back to a word you said a minute ago, you gotta get them to stop matching the narcissist. Yes. What are some examples of matching.

Denise Kavaliauskas: So there's one, there's the abuser and there's the victim, and they're both playing a game together. So when the narcissist is the abuser and they're threatening or whatever they're doing, this person is reacting in fear and just shrinking themselves to the abuser.

So when I show them like, energetically, this is what's happening, that person is overpowering you. How do you come up so that you're not. Under somebody's control. Does that answer your question?

Denise Kavaliauskas: Regulate their nervous system. There's so many ways that, that they can do that. But I get tagged in Facebook groups all the time, always asking for a divorce attorney, women, all the time. 'cause I'm in women's groups and. And, my message to them is like, before you hire the attorney and let me know if you agree on this or not, before you hire the attorney, get your nervous system regulated, get your emotions under control.

So that number one, my whole point is so that when you go to shop for a divorce attorney, you find an aligned divorce attorney that is gonna represent you in the way 'cause I also hear nightmare divorce attorney stories. So, and that's because of their energy and where their energy's at. So they went in with this desperate energy of like, I just wanna, you know, be done and dah, dah, dah.

So that. Your job is easy, their job goes smoothly, and the children don't experience extra trauma through that process.

Jonathan Breeden: Okay. And we need to get this out there. There is just as many women narcissists as there are men.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Absolutely.

Jonathan Breeden: It's a personality disorder.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yes.

Jonathan Breeden: And I think there is a common mis-gender.

Right. But I think there's a misconception among the public that when you hear narcissism and divorce. You're only talking about

Denise Kavaliauskas: men,

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yep.

Jonathan Breeden: You've been doing this, you've been in the business for at least nine years.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yep.

Jonathan Breeden: There's just as many women narcissists as men.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yes.

Jonathan Breeden: They look a little different, but the psychosis is the same.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yeah. And here's what I say about female narcissists, because we have these bodies, we can trap a man with the babies. Fake pregnancies. So what I'm saying is, is there's that little extra manipulation tactic that women have over men.

Jonathan Breeden: Right. Whether, I mean, there's that and I think there's a there that men don't because they don't think of women being narcissists. Men that are in those abusive relationships don't even realize that that's what it is.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Correct.

Jonathan Breeden: And realize that they're shrinking and they're underneath the thing and they're having games played with them and they're being gaslighted, but it's all the same.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Breeden: You do this 25 years, you represent a little bit of everything.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Everybody. Yeah.

Jonathan Breeden: But I mean, I, and it would be hard to convince these men that what they are actually suffering from is that they were married to a narcissist.

And, and they would argue with me and I'm like, no. Like these are the behaviors, but you don't think about it. And, and I want people out there to realize. There are female narcissists, just like there are male narcissists.

Denise Kavaliauskas: You know why that happens? This is so interesting because the reason why the men are so reluctant to accept the truth, and like you said, you have 25 years experience.

You're not saying it to gain anything. It's just a truth. It's a fact, and you're helping your client. The reason why, and this goes for women too, but specifically for the men, because they were raised by a woman. In the same type of energy, and it's familiar and it feels like love. Same thing with women, with our dads, it's the same thing.

Jonathan Breeden: So, you're right. You're absolutely right. And, and all of this. Goes back to childhood often.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Absolutely.

Jonathan Breeden: And, you're right. And you know, we've, I've done tons of domestic violence cases.

I've represented many abusers. I've represented many women that have been abused. Men have been abused too.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yep.

Jonathan Breeden: You know, and, and you go back and you don't have to go far into their childhood to find that. You know, I tell people. Victims are not born. Victims are raised.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yes.

Jonathan Breeden: And, you know, I sort of

Denise Kavaliauskas: absolutely,

Jonathan Breeden: I sort of go with this sort of blank slate theory.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Same with abusers.

Jonathan Breeden: Right. Abusers are raised too, right. And so when I'm talking to people about, you need to get out of this situation.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Right.

Jonathan Breeden: Because your children are observing it.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Right.

Denise Kavaliauskas: You gotta lead. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's so in my experience, in my personal experience, I stayed in my relationship for 22 years because I didn't know any of this. I didn't even know my ex was a narcissist until I was two years out of the relationship and even though my best friend told me, Denise, don't you think he's a narcissist? And I was, I did a little quiz online.

I was like we got 8/10. Nah, he's not looking back. I'm like, oh my god. Denise, what were you thinking? But my children at the effect of what they saw between myself and their dad 'cause I was no angel either. I was very toxic too. I was showing up very toxic. I was reacting to him and it was just a huge mess. My children went through so much trauma and drama because I stayed.

We stayed

Denise Kavaliauskas: Right.

Jonathan Breeden: And right.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Somebody needs to be,

Jonathan Breeden: somebody's gonna have to go, or we're gonna put these kids somewhere else.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Right.

Jonathan Breeden: Because we're not gonna have them witness this.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Right.

Jonathan Breeden: And, and this could be like regular, upper middle class people where that's happened. Like it's not just everybody. Oh, that's just poor people. No, that's anybody? No. Like if the state gets word that your kids are witnessing domestic violence and stuff like that.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yep.

Jonathan Breeden: Or somebody files a restraining order and then drops it, but yet it's been filed and. It alleges bad things. The state's gonna know about it. And so that's, that's a thing too. And, And, you know, and we do a lot of cases here and you know, and including, we did one this week where the mom's with a guy who's not good and any, any sort of beat her up and we represent the dad, they're divorced.

Uh, But we had to go get the dad emergency custody because the mom. Stayed with the guy.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Breeden: And we're like, this can't be like she could stay with him, but these kids can't stay there.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Right.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Breeden: But like, you know, you know, like, you just can't, you can't have that. Right. And so if you end up in a court situation. You know, the court's not gonna leave these kids around domestic violence if they can help it.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Right.

Jonathan Breeden: If he can find anywhere else to play some, and that includes with the state.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Right.

Jonathan Breeden: That's what it's gonna do.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Right.

Jonathan Breeden: And, and I mean, I think that's, I, I think that's important.

Have family law questions? Need guidance to navigate legal challenges? The compassionate team at Breeden Law Office is here to help. Visit us at www. breedenfirm. com for practical advice, resources, or to book a consultation. Remember, when life gets messy, you don't have to face it alone.

Yeah. In the first conversations.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yeah.

Jonathan Breeden: In the first few texts. This is podcast about me, this podcast's about you. What are signs that people might have a problem and you can get it early?

Denise Kavaliauskas: And there, there, to me there's almost,

Jonathan Breeden: You missed it, but like, you know 'em now.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Right, exactly. Now I know my heart. Right. And that, That's what I was just gonna say. There's almost like a profile for male or female. There's almost like a profile. So early signs will, one is, I always say this hoarding the conversation, everything's about them. Even if you're talking, like, if I'm sharing a story with you and you turn it around to make it about you.

Because that's, you know what I mean? So it's very subtle. It's very little, tiny things. And when you come from that type of personality and that energy, then that's why it's so hard to recognize, because it's so familiar. So little things like that. And then the biggest thing that I, that I notice with people and myself too is like years pass by and one day you just look at your life and you're like.

WTF like, how did I get here? This is so crazy. So then you start to recognize, as you go through the healing process, you start to recognize all of the controlling behaviors. But that's just a, a few of them.

Jonathan Breeden: Yeah. It's something that I used to tell people to look for. If you start getting. A lot of text and they wanna know where you are.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Oh, that's

Jonathan Breeden: 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and you may have been on one date.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Right.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yeah.

Jonathan Breeden: Stuff that's just out of proportion.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yeah.

Jonathan Breeden: To, to what it is.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yeah.

Jonathan Breeden: And what I think a lot of times. Women in particular will think, oh, he's interested in me.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yes.

Jonathan Breeden: Sending me these texts. He wants where we're at.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yeah.

Jonathan Breeden: He wants to spend all this time with me. And, and all of that stuff.

Denise Kavaliauskas: You listen.

Jonathan Breeden: Right. But that is the beginning of controlling and

Denise Kavaliauskas: Right.

Jonathan Breeden: cutting you off from your friends and all the things that these abusers do. And, and you know, for people listening and, and you know this 'cause you've been coaching a long time.

I don't care what race you are. I don't care what religion you are, I don't care where in the world you're from.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Breeden: I literally have represented people that have spoken more languages than I can count from every corner of this world because Raleigh is an international city.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yeah.

Jonathan Breeden: And it's all the same.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yep.

It is a psychosis, it is a personality disorder caused by trauma in childhood.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Right.

Jonathan Breeden: Oftentimes when the mind is the most fungible between the ages of four and six and 13 and 16. But it doesn't happen if you have trauma outside of that. But those are the two most important traumas that lead to this.

Yep. Like all the other personalities, disorders, and there are 12 or 13 or there's a lot more than, but what we're talking about is narcissism and then you see a lot of borderline personality disorder as well.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Right.

Jonathan Breeden: And it's sort of. They're similar. Very similar. Yeah. And you know, as we were talking before we started this, the number one trait of a narcissist and a borderline is. It's you, not me.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yeah.

Jonathan Breeden: So talk about that and how you deal with that, because they have absolutely no insight into the fact that they're the problem.

That's a, that's a famous one, right? Like you did it. And that's why I reacted this way. So I called the blame game. It's very obvious. To some of us that this is everybody else's fault. And so that's a great indicator too that they're act anytime somebody is blaming anything and not taking accountability, they're making themselves a victim.

And victim is in the lower levels of consciousness and it's in the abuser victim consciousness.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yep.

Jonathan Breeden: And, and it's often worse because you're not getting hit and you don't realize it.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yep.

Jonathan Breeden: But it's the same thing.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Absolutely.

Jonathan Breeden: But, but it's all about control. And so I tell people it's a little bit like a yo-yo and these abusers are going to, you're talking about hero or victim. They're going to either, it's almost like I'm gonna punch you in the face. Here's a dozen roses.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Mm-hmm.

Right? Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Breeden: You know, you shouldn't have said what you said and I wouldn't have had to punch you in the face.

Denise Kavaliauskas: I'm sorry.

Jonathan Breeden: And here, here's, sorry. Here's a dozen roses.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yeah.

Jonathan Breeden: So it's, it's a yo-yo. And so if you start to separate, and you may have witnessed this when you went through it, the abuse gets worse as does the rewards.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Breeden: So all of a sudden the, it may not have been physical, but if it comes physical and it, instead of getting roses, you get a car that you can't afford. But you know, like stuff,

Denise Kavaliauskas: I've heard those stories, right?

Jonathan Breeden: Like it's stuff like that.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yeah.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Breeden: And, and you know, and I don't know if you saw this, I mean, you got out of the situation, you didn't know it was a narcissist, but in almost all of 'em you start to get these yoyos.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Breeden: Is that what you've seen?

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yeah. And you just reminded me of a mother's day that I had long time ago, and my ex gave me not one piece of jewelry, but like four.

It was earrings and, and a bracelet and this set and something else. It was like all this jewelry. And I was like, at the time I was like, wow, this is so nice. But at the same time I was like, wow, this is a lot. Not knowing, not doing the connection. And then another time he bought me a tennis bracelet. And I remember my best friend saying, that's a guilt, guilt present from all the cheating that he does to try to make up for it.

Jonathan Breeden: Right, right, right. No, you're right. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. So, because it's

Denise Kavaliauskas: still not my fault, it's still your fault. Right?

Jonathan Breeden: Right. So if, if somebody listening to this man or a woman thinks they're in a relationship like this, and I guarantee you, with the amount of this that's out there, somebody listening to this, which is why you're here, part of the reason we do this.

What should they do first?

Denise Kavaliauskas: Seek out somebody, a professional or somebody that they trust in their community that they can get, regulate their nervous system and get their emotions under control. Kind of see things for what they are so that they can make clear decisions in the next move. If it is divorce, to hire a divorce attorney so that they can hire somebody who is in alignment and represent them and advocate for them in the legal part.

Jonathan Breeden: Right, No, thats true.

Denise Kavaliauskas: It's very emotional. And then add on, you said something about add on to that overwhelm and it just, it is, it's a cesspool of all these horrible emotions.

Sad grief. Like even a divorce that is civil, there's an identity crisis happening.

Like now that I'm not his wife, who am I? And that's what divorce does, right? The ego is holding onto the past. And so now you're stepping into the no, and it's just like crunchy and like, aargh, so.

Jonathan Breeden: So how can people reach out to you and your coaching service and follow? I mean, you've got a great social media following

Denise Kavaliauskas: thanks

Jonathan Breeden: so that they can you know, gain more information about you and just gain more information about narcissism.

Denise Kavaliauskas: So my website is YourDivorceDoula.co.

Jonathan Breeden: Okay.

Denise Kavaliauskas: And everything is there. They could book a call with me. I do offer a 30 minute free consultation and I don't do hard sales 'cause this is very emotional.

Jonathan Breeden: Okay. Right. And is there a phone number or just reach out through the website?

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yes, through the website. Just through the website?

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Breeden: All right. And then I think you're on Facebook.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Yes.

Jonathan Breeden: And I think, what's your Facebook page? Oh,

Denise Kavaliauskas: well, the, the page is Life After Narcissism Foundation.

Jonathan Breeden: Okay.

Denise Kavaliauskas: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Breeden: Cool. Right. And then the, the website is.

Denise Kavaliauskas: YourDivorceDoula.co.

Jonathan Breeden: YourDivorceDoula.co.

Okay. Alright. Mm-hmm. Cool. Alright, well the last question we ask everybody on this podcast is, what do you love most about Johnston County?

Denise Kavaliauskas: Oh, I love it here. We live on 16 acres, so what I love most about it is, well, specifically that is having like the creek behind us and like the woods and the natural sounds. The people here are very nice and one of the first things that I noticed when I came here being raised in Miami. Being raised in Miami, there was all these different types of people.

As we mentioned earlier. Please, like, follow, subscribe to this podcast wherever you're seeing it. Also, leave us a five star review down below. Tell us what you liked about what Denise went through, and maybe tell some of your own stories about dealing with a narcissist as well. You're not alone out there.

And definitely reach out to help if, if you need a divorce attorney, you can definitely reach out to us here at the Breeden Law Office. We'll try to help you with that. We work with narcissism all day, every day, and so we've seen just about all of it. And you know, if, if nothing else you get from Denise and i's conversation today, you are not alone.

Know it's there. Reach out and get it. Till next time, I'm your host, Jonathan Breeden.

That's the end of today's episode of Best of Johnston County, a show brought to you by the trusted team at Breeden Law Office. We thank you for joining us today and we look forward to sharing more interesting facets of this community next week. Every story, every viewpoint adds another thread to the rich tapestry of Johnston County.

If the legal aspects highlighted raised some questions, help is just around the corner at www. breedenfirm. com.