What if the part of you that doesn't take everything so seriously is actually your biggest professional strength? This week I sit down with Mary Hendra, a chief of staff, coach, and consultant who once froze when a branding expert told her, "Your brand is play." She thought it was the reason she wasn't getting promoted. It turned out to be the thing that made her a better leader. We get into why play belongs at work, how it builds presence, creativity, and the ability to let go when something isn't working, and why the smallest, quietest gestures often matter most.

We also go a lot of places I didn't expect. Mary tells me about the tugboats she loved as a kid and the metaphor she still carries from them, the semester she spent living in the Soviet Union because her sixteen-year-old heart refused to believe the people there were evil, and one gloriously disastrous team-building escape room. It's a conversation about community, about being a loud introvert who had to work at connection, and about giving yourself ten honest minutes to play so you can show up as yourself for everyone else.

About Mary Hendra:

Mary Hendra, host of the Lead with a Dash of Play podcast, fosters curiosity, compassion and play as both a mission-driven executive and solopreneur herself. Her career portfolio has ranged from leadership in County government to high school teaching, from co-leading a non-profit to guiding a tech-start-up through an accelerator. She currently serves as Education Director for Making Gay History and as Chief of Staff at a tech wellness start-up. Redefining “play” for the modern, busy adult, her workshops and cohort programs foster self-reflection and build clarity for individuals and teams, so that they can move forward with grace. Her book, Lead with a Dash of Play, is expected in 2027.

Show Notes:

00:00 Why I almost didn't make it to this episode

06:15 Tugboats, and the small things that move the big ones

09:30 Living in the Soviet Union, and what civic society takes for granted

22:00 Where the interest in play actually started

23:30 "Your brand is play," and why it stung

25:00 Play as a leadership skill we sideline

29:30 What play teaches us about letting go

36:00 Small ways to bring play in, starting with how you name your meetings

40:00 A spectacular play fail (the escape room)

46:15 One invitation to play

Links Mentioned:

Mary Hendra's podcast, Lead with a Dash of Play: https://maryhendra.com/podcast/

Playful by Cas Holman: https://casholman.com/book

IDEO Play Lab: https://www.ideo.com

LEGO Serious Play: https://www.lego.com/en-us/themes/serious-play

I didn't realize that play was just exuding from me enough that

2

somebody would say, "Your brand is play."

3

that was not something I was striving for.

4

And I felt in that moment, like

maybe that had held me back.

5

Maricella Herrera: Have you

ever felt like the script you're

6

following doesn't quite fit anymore?

7

Then you're in the right place.

8

I'm Maricella Herrera and I started.

9

Shit I just quit my job after walking

away from a job I thought defined me.

10

Forget the highlight reels.

11

Here.

12

We talk about the messy middle, the

doubts, the detours, and the chaos

13

that come with rethinking who we are.

14

Because the truth is, it was

never just about quitting a job.

15

It was about questioning

everything I thought I knew.

16

Hi, everyone.

17

Welcome to Sh*t I Just Quit My Job?

18

I'm Maricella.

19

I'm your host.

20

I'm really excited to have you

join me today for another episode

21

I don't even want to start

saying how I know I've been

22

late, but I know I've been late.

23

, Lots of things going

on, and I've realized…

24

how easy it is to fall back into old

patterns when it comes to work, fall

25

back into these patterns of giving

26

I don't know, making it

the center of your life.

27

I thought I was past that,

but turns out I'm not.

28

, I have this very large project I'm

working on, and it's taking over my life.

29

I've, like, really let

things fall to the wayside

30

And I'm telling you this

because I'm telling myself this.

31

I'm telling…

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So, like, I'm, I'm telling you

because I need to remind myself that

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no matter what happens, I can't not

give myself the time, the space, the

34

opportunity to do the things I love,

and I've been really neglecting those.

35

And those are things like this

podcast, things like writing, things

36

like going on Substack, things

like h- uh, even going to the gym.

37

I haven't been going to the gym, which

is something that I try to be very

38

consistent with because of running.

39

, And honestly, because of my mental health.

40

Like, I do really put a lot of weight

in exercising as a form of self-care.

41

And I've stayed consistent with my

running, so that's been good, but it's the

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only thing I've stayed consistent with.

43

And it's all because I've kind of fell

back into some, some old patterns, that

44

I recognize But anyway, I made it here.

45

I made it to this one, and I'll be

honest, the only way, the only reason

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why I made it right now is because

I forced myself to switch out my

47

work computer and grab my laptop

and say, "We're just gonna do this."

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'Cause I've had this episode edited for

a while now, and it's a good episode.

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It's an episode that deals with a

topic I am so passionate about and

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that I love so much, and that I've been

wanting you to listen to for a long

51

time, and I haven't been able to do it.

52

So the episode today is a

conversation I have with Mary Hendra.

53

And Mary is just such a delightful human,

A, but B, she is a chief of staff so

54

she, she has this knowledge about around

culture and developing culture within

55

organizations that's really powerful.

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She's also a coach and a consultant

and does a lot of work around play

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as a tool for leadership development,

as a tool to get teams unstuck.

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All these things that I've been talking

about that I love, Mary has been

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doing, and that's how we reconnected.

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I actually was on her podcast.

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She has a podcast called Lead with

a Dash of Play, which it was so fun.

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I'm gonna include a link to the,

my episode on there, but also

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just to her podcast in general

'cause it's really, really good.

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I've actually listened to quite a few

of her episodes, and I love how everyone

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has this, like, different take on play

and suggestions around play, and how

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play has impacted their lives, and

how it can be used in different ways.

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And I really think, I'm not just talking

about me right now, although clearly I am

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in need of reminding myself that I need

to re-engage that creative and playful

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part of me, but I think we all need to.

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I think it's important.

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So I think Mary's podcast can give

you some ideas for that in your life.

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And then my conversation with Mary,

we do go into some of her experiences,

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how she got into this world, when

someone first suggested play as part

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of her brand and, and how that was a

reaction, or how she reacted to that.

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we talk about how she spent some time

in, in Russia in actually around the time

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where things were really, really changing.

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I think Mary's a really special person.

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I really do.

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I, and, and I- you hear me say

that, but, like, I think you'll

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feel it when you hear her speak.

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The way that she

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believes in people and humans being good

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I think it's a dash of optimism

that we all really need

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I had a blast on my conversation with her.

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I really, really did.

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And there was a lot to unpack,

and there was a lot to learn, too.

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And we had fun, as we

usually do on this podcast.

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So tune in, listen to this episode,

listen to my conversation with Mary.

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would love to know what you think.

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hit me up, [email protected],

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and I'll see you next time.

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Bye.

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I'm happy to have you on 'cause we're

gonna talk about stuff I really love.

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But my first question is always

the same one What did you wanna

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be when you were growing up?

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Mary: So I went through a lot of

different career possibilities.

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One point I told people that I

was gonna be the first female

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president of the United States.

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That's not gonna happen.

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But I think the very first time,

the first, the earliest career

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type of thing that I remember as a

kid wanting was tugboat operator.

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That's so- Not what you were expecting?

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Maricella Herrera: Where

did that come from?

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No.

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But I have all kinds of answers for, to

this question, which is why I love it.

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But where did that come from?

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Mary: Yeah, I just remember one time

when I was a kid and we were out

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watching the boats at the harbor, 'cause

I grew up in Southern California, and

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so we would often be out at the water.

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I love the ocean.

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I love the harbor and piers.

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I was just fascinated with these tugboats

that were so small, but were the ones

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that were absolutely, critical in these

enormous boats destroying things in

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the harbor or collapsing themselves.

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You know, like these little tugboats-

Interesting … were the power,

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and I just, I thought that was

fascinating, and I loved watching them.

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I loved watching the tugboat

operators and how they maneuvered

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around the big boats and stuff.

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And I don't see them often enough now

as an adult, but I s- I remember as a

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kid just thinking that was really cool.

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Maricella Herrera: You know, I love

the kind of metaphor of it too, right?

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the small th- like the small things you

might not think are so important are the-

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Yeah … can make or break something.

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Yeah.

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Like they're- Yeah … can

be massively important.

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Yeah.

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So-

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Mary: I love, I love the metaphor

now as well, and I think now

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think of them with such affection.

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And also we're sometimes, we

don't even notice them, right?

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Maricella Herrera: Mm-hmm.

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Mary: I was on a cruise one time, and I

was so excited because we were gonna get

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pulled in by tugboats to this one harbor.

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And I'm like, "I have to get out there.

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I need to see it."

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And there were so many people around

us who, didn't even notice the tugboat,

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and I was there like, "Where is it?

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Where is it?

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I wanna see it."

140

But I think that's, that metaphor is there

in life as well, that often we overlook

141

the very powerful but seemingly small

efforts or people or movements that are

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actually the ones that are critically

making something significant happen.

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Maricella Herrera: Absolutely.

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I think we see that generally.

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Mm-hmm.

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I'm thinking basically on, the type

of work that you do- Yeah … and

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how that can make a difference.

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And so I wondered if any, that was part

of, what inspired you to go into this

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more- Not necessarily that tugboat,

but like the idea- Yeah … of this.

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Mary: Well, it, you know,

it's an interesting question.

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and I think one of the areas where

I really saw it was actually not in

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a, in the direct professional job.

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Maricella Herrera: Mm-hmm.

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Mary: But when I was getting a master's

in international public administration,

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then I spent some time living in Russia.

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I had gone there as a student in

undergrad when it was still the Soviet

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Union, and so I was there when the new

Russian constitution came out, and,

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I was there when there were Yeltsin

sent tanks rolling down the street

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and shooting at the White House.

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I mean, it was…

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There was a lot of volatility politically.

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And I interviewed a number of

people about civic society.

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I was, at the time, was working for the

County of Los Angeles, and I, my master's

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thesis was comparing local government in

the post-Soviet Russia and in Los Angeles.

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and one of the things that I

realized was how much was missing

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there- that we take for granted in

civic society in the United States.

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Because there are so many places where

we practice democracy, for example.

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Where we practice democracy in a

homeowners association-… or in

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an apartment building where there

is a tenants union of sorts, right?

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we may practice democracy in our

schools, student government- Mm-hmm

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and other things that way.

172

There's a kind of expectation that

we might have that our voice matters.

173

There are so many community

organizations and nonprofits where

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they're formed because people come

together and say "This matters,

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and we will do something about it."

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And that whole layer- Was generally

missing in the post-Soviet Russia

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time then when I was there.

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I doubt it's much better today.

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it is also often missing in

other countries that we think

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of as more advanced as well.

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I think that we've lost some of it in

this country because we have taken it

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for granted, but there's still many

pieces there, and that connection

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to the tugboat operator to me is

very present in my heart- Mm-hmm

184

as well, that we don't realize how

much we depend on what may seem like

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a small movement, an organization

with three people or one person, that

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are truly making huge differences

in the way that our society, our

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companies, our communities, our

buildings, our homes happen, and

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the way that they move forward.

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Maricella Herrera: Yeah.

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Before I continue down this route- … I

really wanna know why you went…

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what made you go to the Soviet Union?

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I'm guessing what you were studying,

it makes a lot of sense, but,

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Mary: my family has

asked that for decades.

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when I was growing up, when I

was in middle school and into

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high school, this is a time of,

Ronald Reagan had been president.

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Mm-hmm.

197

He called the Soviet Union

the Evil Empire, right?

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and, the Cold War was in

full, blown tension, right?

199

My little 16-year-old heart could not

believe that the people were evil.

200

So when Reagan said, "This is the

evil empire," my little 16-year-old

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heart said, "I can't believe it,

and I wanna go, and I wanna see and

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meet the people who live there."

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much to the surprise of my family,

because we, to anybody's knowledge, there

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is no, Russian heritage in my family,

no Soviet heritage, no link to, you

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know, anything behind the Iron Curtain.

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I researched and chose a school that had

study abroad programs that would allow me

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to actually live with people in the Soviet

Union, which was a big deal at that point

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because there weren't very many programs

that went to the Soviet Union, and those

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that did, often you stayed in the dorms.

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you did not live with families.

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So I've researched that.

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I studied Russian for four years.

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I even went to the Monterey

Institute of International Studies

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and lived in a Russian house where

we had a counselor that worked for

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the Defense Language Institute.

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I mean, I really, dove all in because- Wow

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I wanted to understand

people when I was there.

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I wanted to live with people.

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I wanted to be with people who

were there because I could not

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believe that they were evil.

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it sounds so, simple or simple-hearted

now, but that was where my heart

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was and so that's what I did.

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I spent a semester my senior year

in college living with this amazing

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family, mother and daughter.

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There were no men in the

picture in this family.

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There was mother and daughter,

and then there was grandmother

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and great-grandmother that lived-

Wow … together in a house nearby.

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So I have this wonderful picture of four

generations of women in this family,

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and I lived with them for the semester.

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When I then went and got my master's

degree, it was, very natural then for

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me to say, "Okay, I'm gonna go back."

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It's now three years later.

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The Soviet country has disintegrated,

'Cause when I went there the first time,

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it was still Gorbachev was in charge.

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It was still the Soviet Union.

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It was between invasions of the Baltic

republics, and then three years later

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when I was, when I was doing my study for

my master's, I'm like, "Okay, of course

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I'm gonna go back, and I wanna see, you

know, what has happened in three years

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and learn and visit my Russian family."

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Maricella Herrera: How different was it?

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Mary: enormously different

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Maricella Herrera: Yeah.

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'Cause three years is not that

long, but like it was such a

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significant- Yeah … change, right?

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Mary: And so many levels.

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when I went there the first time,

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rate was six rubles per dollar, and

the black market, not that I ever

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exchanged rubles on the black market,

but the black market rate was said

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to be 15 to 20 rubles per dollar.

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When I went there, '93, the

exchange, the, they were experiencing

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hyperinflation, so it was something in

the range of 2,000 rubles per dollar.

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So people who lived on a fixed income had,

their savings had been completely wiped

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out, because it went from six to 2,000.

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And, when I first went there, my,

my host mother, Solana, had been

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trained as an engineer, but she

was working as an insurance agent.

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Don't ask me, like, how that all worked

in Soviet times , but that's what it was.

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And when I went back and the economy had

really collapsed, and the black marketeers

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had become the businesspeople by the

time that I was there the second time.

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So she had started this job at a

company that after two or three weeks

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when she hadn't been paid, she went

in to ask about it, and the leader

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literally looked her in the eye and

said, "Don't you have a daughter?"

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She was like, "Yes."

263

Mm-hmm.

264

He said, "Wouldn't you be

afraid for your daughter?"

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And she left.

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She got one of her male friends to

come stay with them for a few while.

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She never, went back.

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She never asked for her paycheck anymore.

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She- Wow … at the time that I was

there, she was literally, trying to get by

270

doing, small crafts that she could sell.

271

So there was this turmoil on

the economy side of things.

272

Mm-hmm.

273

In Moscow, where I lived for the first

two and a half months of the second

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trip, Svetlana and her family live in St.

275

Petersburg.

276

There were weekly, kidnappings of bankers

and assassination attempts, that they were

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likening it to Chicago in the '20s, and

then I mentioned the political turmoil

278

of the tanks rolling down the street.

279

The second time I was living

with this family, theoretically

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teaching the son, the teenage

son, how to better speak English.

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He did not want to learn English, so

my Russian improved greatly as I argued

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with him about why he should speak

English, but his English not so much.

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a- and, you know, and they were in

turmoil, too, with, you know, and living

284

in one place and then another place, so.

285

So it was significantly different

between the two and complete economic and

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political turmoil at the, at that point.

287

I will say I did go back another

four years later just to visit

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Svetlana, and it was beautiful to see.

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At that point, so that was now, four

years later, so seven years from

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when I had first met her, and at

that point she was actually cooking.

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She was a chef for a company

lunchroom, but she was the

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happiest I'd ever seen her.

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She owned- I love that … that space.

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She got to create it.

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She got to be, like, the community

person for that whole company.

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She clearly had found a company

with an honest CEO and was able to

297

create this space of, community for

the company, and was much happier,

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and she and her daughter were safe.

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But it was definitely a unique

perspective to see the country and the

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people in those three time periods.

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Maricella Herrera: That's crazy

to me, 'cause what an experience.

302

what a, a moment- Yeah … in

time, moments in time that-

303

Yeah … you got to see.

304

I keep thinking as you're talking

about 16-year-old little Mary thinking

305

people can't be evil or, that's

not the way people are, and it just

306

On the one hand gives me

a little hope for people.

307

Yeah.

308

But it's also like it's something

that I think is true, but it's

309

hard sometimes to keep it- Yeah

310

maintain it.

311

Yeah.

312

Especially as you get older.

313

Yeah.

314

And I do believe you have.

315

Mary: I definitely have.

316

And I will also name like

an in- an incredible…

317

I was in an incredibly privileged

space that I could go- Mm-hmm … and

318

see for myself, and I could

challenge it that directly, and

319

I don't take that for granted.

320

And not everybody is in the space

where they can really, go to that

321

level of extreme to challenge.

322

I think we're all in a place-

Yeah … where we can challenge it

323

internally, but sometimes those messages

are so strong, and we really have to

324

break out of where we are mentally or

physically in order to see something

325

different, and that can be hard.

326

Maricella Herrera: And part of it, why

it keeps, in my mind, is because it

327

keeps bringing me back to community,

and I know- Mm-hmm that's something that

328

for you- Yeah … is very important.

329

you do that both- Yeah … the

company that you work at, but also

330

in your free time- … and also in

your own entrepreneurial ventures.

331

Yeah.

332

And even as you were talking about

Svetlana, about the fact that she was so

333

much happier, and I wrote it down, being

the community person, being the person

334

that was- Yeah … creating that space.

335

Has this always been a central part

of where you wanted to spend your

336

time and- Mm-hmm … build, I guess

in a way, your career, but just

337

build your life so based in- Yeah

338

Maricella: human connection?

339

Which-

340

Mary: No.

341

Maricella Herrera: No?

342

Mary: No, I wasn't.

343

No.

344

I was so shy as a kid.

345

Introverted, yes, but

also just, really shy.

346

I would not have made it through school

without my older sister, who was the one

347

who could make friends easily and might

bring me along, even if she didn't really

348

want to, because I would follow her.

349

You know, when I was a kid playing,

I vividly remember, climbing up into

350

trees by myself and imagining whole

worlds out in our back- backyard.

351

But it was just me in that tree.

352

Or I would dive into a book.

353

And my grandmother, who, w- who

died much too early but was a member

354

of the Foreign Service, she pulled

me out a little bit of my shell.

355

And then mentioned my sister.

356

I would, follow her a little bit and

learn from her just by watching when

357

she wasn't looking at how she made

friends, how she-… built community.

358

And I think because I struggled

with it so much myself, and I often

359

felt like an outsider, it became

something that is really important

360

to me to build that for others.

361

and I think I'm more attentive

perhaps to the exclusion or the way

362

people are feeling in a room because

I have felt the exclusion myself.

363

I consider myself, maybe not

in, not that much as before,

364

but I'm pretty introverted.

365

Yeah.

366

Loudly introverted,

but- … introverted nonetheless.

367

And a lot of the people at

Elevate were very much introverts.

368

And I have a- Mm-hmm … theory

that, exactly what you just

369

said, because you're building…

370

You know the experience, and you wanna

build something where- Yeah … people can

371

come together and feel good- yeah … was

why we were good at what we were doing.

372

Yeah.

373

And I think it's true.

374

I think what you're saying

makes so much sense to me.

375

Maricella: Yeah.

376

Yeah.

377

You have to work harder at it and be

more attentive at what you're doing, I

378

think, when it doesn't come naturally.

379

And that can make it stronger.

380

For the listeners, Mary and I

rec- reconnected because of an

381

interest, a common interest in play.

382

And- Yes … I- Yeah … I'm curious,

when did that interest start?

383

Because it's not something…

384

I mean, sure, we all played when we

were little, but it's- Yeah … as

385

an adult, it's not something

you hear that much, I think.

386

Yeah.

387

Yeah.

388

So there's kind of two strands on this.

389

On the one hand, I've

never really given up play.

390

I love that.

391

So when I was in my 20s, I always had

a pair of rollerblades in my trunk

392

just in case I was near the beach and

could go rollerblading along the beach.

393

My dad and I would go to the Museum of

Art and we would paint, and we'd take,

394

you know, classes there, or we would

go on hikes and take our watercolors

395

or our paints with us and do things.

396

So there's an element there that

I think I just always held onto,

397

but I usually kept it hidden.

398

It was something I would do, you know,

I would do on my own or I'd do with my

399

dad or with, you know, one or two people.

400

It wasn't something…

401

I am not a, I'm not a, improv comedian

or someone who's gonna get up in

402

front of a mic or, you know, any

kind of, outlandish play that way.

403

I'm not in theater.

404

I did not play sports, you know.

405

So my play is more quiet, but

it's been there, and it's been

406

my release on tough days and it's

just kind of been part of that.

407

But a number of years ago when I was

looking to make a job change, I was

408

working with somebody who does personal

branding, and near the very, very end

409

of our engagement, she left me a message

and a voice message, and she said,

410

"Mary-" I think your brand is play.

411

And I closed out the voice message.

412

I literally was crestfallen

because I thought, this is why I

413

am struggling so much to be taken

seriously or to get a promotion.

414

Oh my gosh.

415

Is that my…

416

That I didn't even realize it.

417

I didn't realize that play was just

exuding from me enough that somebody

418

would say, "Your brand is play."

419

that was not something I was striving for.

420

And I felt in that moment, like

maybe that had held me back.

421

So I hung up the phone.

422

I don't think I even

called her back for a week.

423

And I…

424

But I had to just sit with it for a

bit and think about it and ponder it

425

and the next opportunity that I got

to really dive deeper into it, it was

426

still weighing heavily on my mind when I

took a class to learn about podcasting.

427

And so I was like, "Okay, what do I

w- what do I wanna do my podcast on?

428

I wanna interview people.

429

I wanna learn about this thing

about play in professional spaces,"

430

because I was like, like I don't even

know what to do with this, right?

431

that play could be my brand.

432

And I mean, and she's right.

433

pl- play had never really left me, so

it came out in these different ways

434

without me having labeled it as play.

435

So I explored it-… with the podcast.

436

I started looking for people who actually

claim play, who are not afraid to claim

437

it, and started interviewing them.

438

And it was fascinating to me because

I quite quickly came to the conclusion

439

that play is a leadership skill, and we

sideline it as a society because we s-

440

we think of play and associate play with

kids instead of with adults, or both.

441

And we put play in juxtaposition with

work, when actually play improves work.

442

And as I said, like play

is, I believe, a very strong

443

leadership skill that we sideline

unnecessarily and to our detriment.

444

Do you think we do that because,

similar to what you were thinking,

445

doesn't sound quote-unquote

"right" for the type of- Yeah

446

culture we live in?

447

100%.

448

I think, like even in schools, right?

449

I taught for many years when, you know,

you know, when kids move from elementary

450

to middle to high school, they're

often like told to become more serious.

451

Their grades are gonna matter now.

452

They need to get into

a good college, right?

453

And we turn young people far too

early into thinking about their

454

future, and that future is serious.

455

And in those moments, I think our

language and our attitudes reinforce

456

this idea that play doesn't have

a place in the professional space.

457

Even then, you know, as people get

into the, into their careers, play is

458

often seen as either a release, maybe

it's something you do on the weekends.

459

Mm-hmm.

460

Maybe it's something you do if you

have a great boss, it might, maybe

461

you have retreats once or twice a

year and you can play then, right?

462

There's a very defined space

for it, but we limit it.

463

We put it in this box for adults and I,

and that, that is a, definitely why I

464

think I had such a reaction to having that

associated with me, because it seemed to

465

me like that was the answer as to why I

wasn't getting the promotion I wanted.

466

Mary: Now, there's much more to unpack and

complications there undoubtedly as well,

467

but in that moment, my emotional reaction

to it was, I think, a reflection of

468

society's- Mm-hmm … explanation of what

play is and where play belongs in society.

469

As you're talking, I'm

thinking about this.

470

I'm taking a course on, it's

called Boundless Leadership.

471

It's pretty good, but it's leadership

and- Mm-hmm … it has a lot of very I

472

don't know, introspective components.

473

But there's, they were

talking about presence.

474

We were talking about presence-… and

they were people teaching it were like,

475

"Well, when you think of presence in

the corporate world, you think of,

476

this executive presence where you're

coming in as, this, leadership."

477

Maricella: Yeah.

478

But, the word presence is

really about being present.

479

there's, there's- Yeah … this

aspect to the same…

480

It's similar to what

you're saying about play.

481

there's so many rich leadership qualities

from it, but we go to- Yeah … the,

482

to the other side, to the hard side.

483

That is what we've known.

484

Yeah.

485

So it just- Yeah … made

me think of that.

486

Oh, and it's such a great ex-

example because presence also is

487

about listening to other people.

488

Mm-hmm.

489

Being really attuned to what's

going on, being f- like, giving it

490

your full attention so you're not

distracted by all these other things.

491

And play helps us develop

those skills, too, right?

492

Yeah.

493

You can't play if you're not present.

494

You're gonna get hit on the head with the

ball, or you're you know, lose the train

495

of the story or whatever it is, right?

496

You need that presence in order to play

well, and that's one of the things that

497

I love as I've dove more into really

understanding play is the recognition

498

that, that play helps us build skills

that actually really serve us well

499

in professional settings as well.

500

What do you think are some of those

besides, you know, what you talked about

501

listening- Yeah … and being present,

but any others that come to mind?

502

I mean, I can think of a few, but…

503

Yeah.

504

Definitely some of the, design

thinking iterations- Mm-hmm … right?

505

Being willing to experiment,

take some risks, learn from them.

506

Yeah.

507

And then try again, right?

508

Which is definitely part of the

experience many companies are trying

509

to create is spaces, environments where

their people will try things and take

510

some risks and learn and try again,

the constant iteration we now have.

511

I also think the connection

with people and the empathy,

512

that team-building- Mm-hmm

513

side of things that often we learn from

play as well, and including perspective

514

taking and building some empathy that way.

515

There's competition in play undoubtedly,

but there is also that strong ability

516

to see things from another's perspective

that I think is really helpful.

517

I've also been thinking recently

about how play helps us let go.

518

Mm-hmm.

519

And I, and that's a skill we often

need in a professional setting, too.

520

What do you mean?

521

Tell me maybe an example.

522

Yeah.

523

I think we can hold on to the way things

happen, have happened, or have the

524

way thing- the way we do things at the

company or, even, you know, a particular

525

software we like or a business model

or product that we're trying to create.

526

We can hold onto it because it's what

we've done and it feels comfortable.

527

But with play and whether it's

in a sport or in art or how

528

whatever is play for you, right?

529

If something's not working so

well, you kind of see that it's

530

not working and you're like, "Well,

maybe I'll just change colors.

531

Maybe I'm gonna use acrylic

for this instead of watercolor.

532

Maybe I'm gonna use some

different strategy in soccer

533

that I don't know the name of."

534

Right?

535

Mm-hmm.

536

Mm-hmm.

537

like maybe I'm just, I'm gonna

try something different, right?

538

and I think in a lot of times in the

organizations, and companies that

539

I've worked with, you put so much

into one product, it's really hard

540

to let it go even when you see that

something is not working as well.

541

and so that's something I

think we can learn from play.

542

We can learn even, the emotional

release of one thing that…

543

I'm like, it doesn't mean

we're giving up the game.

544

It means we're even more committed, and

that's why we're gonna try something new.

545

and if that doesn't work, we'll

try something else again, right?

546

So that, that kind of playful mindset, I

think, is another skill that, that really

547

helps us in many aspects of our life.

548

Yeah, I a hundred percent agree.

549

I think play is such a

good tool for change.

550

I know that's part of what you

do- Yeah … in your own business.

551

I think playing around, right,

quote, unquote, "playing

552

around with stuff"- Mm-hmm

553

Mary: it lowers the perceived

ri- not risk, but maybe risk.

554

it just- Yeah … lowers that

perception of this is life or death.

555

It's just- Yeah … playing.

556

Yeah.

557

Yep, yeah.

558

What can feel like we're

lowering the stakes.

559

Exactly, yeah.

560

When you had this person tell

you that about your personal

561

brand- … you said you were changing…

562

Maricella: You were trying to

get a promotion or something, but

563

you were making a change in your-

Yeah … own- Yeah … career.

564

For that to happen, did you

end up embracing this more,

565

or did you keep fighting it?

566

I did not embrace it immediately.

567

Mm-hmm.

568

I let it sit for a bit.

569

I, you know, thought about it.

570

I kind of was like, there's

some element, I think, also

571

that was like, "Oh, that's big.

572

I'm gonna just set that aside here on the

shelf- … for a few minutes while I…

573

or a few months while I figure

out my actual change, and then

574

I'll- Yeah … pick it back up."

575

I did eventually pick it up back

up, and the podcast really helped.

576

Interviewing people, talking to people.

577

I still love interviewing and

talking to people about play.

578

I think it's fascinating and is a

continuing, continually evolving space.

579

And I've done things like I became

certified as a Lego Serious Play

580

Facilitator, and so there's some

deeper ways that I have leaned into it.

581

And as a result of that, it did become

even more, visible and present in what I

582

bring to work, such that, that I n- now…

583

the people around me count on

me to bring play into things.

584

There are times where they're

like, "This feels tough, Mary.

585

How can we make this…

586

How can we bring a little play into this?"

587

I love that.

588

which is lovely because it shows both

that I've become more comfortable in

589

that, which is always a good thing to be

a little bit more comfortable with your

590

identity, but also that people around me

are seeing the value that comes- Mm-hmm

591

with integrating pl- a playful mindset

and being willing to play with things a

592

bit, and that is also, I think, a really

positive sign of the, of those kind of,

593

those- Has it been hard to get people to

open up their mind to something like that?

594

It's been mixed.

595

Some people, they just laugh with you

right away- and they're hooked, right?

596

And I think I see a good number of

people where it expresses as a sigh

597

of relief when you name play as part

of what you're bringing in, because

598

I think we're like so many of us,

like we, like I had done, right?

599

we shun it to the side.

600

And so, so when somebody says, "Hey, let's

invite play into the room, and let's lean

601

into it," it's almost like the weight is

lifted, and you can be yourself again.

602

Mm-hmm.

603

And then there are some who are

still like, "Okay, there is a place

604

for play, but it's not here," right?

605

Or, "It's not right now," or, "There is a

place for play, but this is too serious."

606

I r- I respect some of that.

607

Mm-hmm.

608

I think there are times where,

yeah, we need to really think

609

about what is it that we're doing.

610

I don't always try and bring

in play, you know, of course.

611

I push back on it in little ways or nudges

because there are times where I think

612

people do that because of their ego-

… or because they are afraid of losing

613

something, which comes back to some degree

to what I said about play helps us let go.

614

But if we're afraid of letting go, if

we're afraid of losing it, or if we're

615

afraid of how we will be seen, there is a

certain facade or image we are protecting.

616

Play is a challenge.

617

Mary: you said you pushed back in, small,

like- Yeah … little things, and I think

618

there's this aspect of when we're talking

about play that can sound really big.

619

it can sound like- Yeah … you

know, you said team retreat or

620

off-site or something like that.

621

Mm-hmm.

622

But it doesn't need to be.

623

Yeah.

624

It can just be something

small that can help.

625

yeah.

626

Any, thoughts or anything that you've

seen work- Yeah … that is small?

627

Some of my favorite are, like, how

we name our calls or our meetings.

628

Maricella: Ooh.

629

you know, such a little thing, but it's

on our calendar, and we see it every

630

time that we're there, and it sets

the expectation for that call, right?

631

So, so even shifting something from,

you know, interview on a podcast to

632

play with language- Mm-hmm … share

a history, share a story, right?

633

there's different ways we phrase

things, that can make it fun.

634

Sometimes I go, totally outlandish with

something where, I've, I have named a

635

calendar event, you know, Conquer the

World or, you know, something because,

636

I- … I'm meeting with somebody where,

we have a really big challenge that we

637

have to figure out, and it feels like

we truly are, like, having to conquer

638

the world in that 30 minutes that we

set aside for that meeting, right?

639

labeling it that instead of…

640

Or, you know, brilliant brainstorming,

take over the, you know, something, right?

641

I l- use alliteration.

642

We do, you know, different things, right?

643

those little names, then every time

that week that I'm looking at my

644

schedule I'm like, "Yeah, I get

to talk with this person 'cause

645

we're gonna conquer the world."

646

Mary: Right?

647

I really like that.

648

Words matter.

649

They have power.

650

Words matter.

651

They do make a difference in our

brain, how we approach things, so

652

that's, a really- Yeah … great tip.

653

Yeah.

654

That's actually a really great tip.

655

You're chief of staff right now

at the company that you're at.

656

Yeah.

657

Which- Yes … as you're talking

about these things, to me, makes me

658

think how interesting of a culture

it might be with this type of- I try

659

Maricella: of ideas.

660

Because they, you know, a chief of staff,

CEO, people in those roles- Yeah … do

661

have such an impact- Yeah … in culture.

662

So it does make me curious about how

the- Yeah … how the culture is and

663

how you embrace this type of work.

664

It's funny.

665

You know, chief of staff role is

often about the threads within- Mm-hmm

666

a company and connecting people and

creating the space for success, right?

667

Creating that environment

for people to really thrive.

668

So I do take that very seriously.

669

I really…

670

I wanna know every person

that comes into the company.

671

I wanna be able to support

and look for things.

672

one of the ways I think it comes

out is celebrations, right?

673

it's so easy to forget to

celebrate the little things

674

that are not so little, right?

675

You know, finally finishing some

project that was just drudgery,

676

but you had to do it, right?

677

So pausing and being like, "Okay, we're

gonna take a two-minute dance break."

678

and just post this video,

just do something, right?

679

or bringing in a little bit of drawing

into the all-hands meeting where-… and

680

we just say "Okay, we're gonna do

something a bit different right

681

now, and everybody's gonna do it."

682

I mentioned the LEGO Serious Play.

683

I made sure everybody in the C-suite got

a bag of LEGO bricks, and there are times

684

where we literally build together, or

build to figure out what the challenge

685

is and try and bring things in that way.

686

There's a lot of tough challenges.

687

We are not perfect.

688

Mm-hmm.

689

We are obviously still growing as

a company, but, and in the culture,

690

but I think there are so many ways

that you can bring that mindset into

691

even, one-to-one interactions, small

teams, in different initiatives.

692

Even just being able to set something

up where "Okay, we've never done this.

693

None of us have done this before.

694

Let's try it, and if it doesn't work,

let's try something else," right?

695

Again, like that play mindset, but

you need that in a startup, and

696

you need that in a, you know, for

people to feel comfortable that

697

they can try something even if it

might fail, and w- and we need that.

698

Any moment that you've

seen The approach go wrong?

699

Like- Mm-hmm … the play or this

type of invitation- Yeah … to create

700

this wor- this type of environment.

701

Yeah.

702

I'll go back a couple jobs to a

really f- spectacular play fail.

703

Because those happen, too, right?

704

So, and we laugh about it now, but

in the local m- branch that I worked

705

in with, the leader, we decided

for our, part of our team-building,

706

we were gonna do an escape room.

707

Oh.

708

And we thought, "This is gonna be great.

709

We're gonna bring people into a

play environment because we really

710

want people to connect as a team."

711

A- and so the first thing that went

wrong is that a subset of the group went

712

to lunch, quietly, separately, without

giving notice, before everybody else did.

713

So here we are trying to build

a whole team- … and the subset

714

fractured before we even got there.

715

… and then we got there, and one of the

people, we'd specifically chosen this

716

instead of some others because there

were strong feelings about, bowling

717

and other things that we were like,

"Okay, we need to stay away from those."

718

Well, one of them started panicking,

and it, like- Oh my God … the

719

whole concept of the escape room,

he's "We're gonna die in here.

720

We're not gonna make it."

721

It was- Wow it was truly, it, like his

heart was racing in a different way.

722

Oh my God.

723

It was not at all playful for him.

724

The only reason why we actually got

out was we had a temp that week.

725

She was amazing.

726

She got us out of the escape room.

727

So, so I would say that

was absolutely a play fail.

728

We, the lessons I learned from it is how

important it is to really think about

729

all of the people that are gonna be-

Mm-hmm … participating, to think about

730

the entry and exit from a play, to think

about what we're asking of people and

731

how we set that up to succeed as well

in, in different spaces and settings.

732

And we learned it.

733

We also learned that we needed

to test things before we

734

brought them to the whole team.

735

So we also have some funny stories

of other things that we tested and

736

decided were not the right fit.

737

And, so you know- Like what?

738

… that happens, too.

739

There is…

740

I met somebody who was creating this

really amazing, laser tag fitness

741

obstacle thing in downtown LA.

742

And I was like, "Sure, let's try it."

743

And it was- It was a lot of fitness, so

that was one thing we were like, "Okay,

744

people are not gonna be ready for this."

745

And I was so bad at it that I was laughing

hysterically at the entire time, which

746

meant that I was very easy to find

in order to shoot with the laser tag.

747

So not to mention like how we looked and

I mean, like it was all hilarious, but we

748

like one, I think five minutes in, we knew

it was not the right fit for our team.

749

So funny.

750

We kept playing because

we're like, "Why not?

751

We're here, let's do it."

752

but, but it was definitely something

that sounded better in theory than

753

when we actually were there and

were picturing our team doing it.

754

Mary: Yeah.

755

it's interesting because- Play

only works if people wanna play.

756

Yeah.

757

If they want- Yeah … to be

part of this- Yeah … thing that

758

you're doing- Yeah … together.

759

And one of the challenges with play is

that the same thing could be play for one

760

person and- Mm-hmm … not for another.

761

And- clearly.

762

Yeah.

763

You know?

764

Maricella: As we can see

from your escape room.

765

Yeah.

766

But

767

it's true.

768

But it's true, and we all

have our own play personality.

769

There's different play styles that

people have, and so, you know, to really

770

engage people in a way where everyone

has an access to the fun of play, is…

771

takes some very deliberate construction.

772

It makes me think again of you

thinking of people as not being evil.

773

It's about knowing the people.

774

Yeah.

775

Having that, you know- Yeah … kind

of empathy to- Yeah … or I'm saying

776

empathy for- Yeah … the design

thinking reason of empathy, but,

777

that- Yeah … understanding of who

you're going to be engaging with.

778

Yeah.

779

Mary: And deeply knowing,

what will work or not work.

780

Yeah.

781

How do you keep playful when you're…

782

You have your own business,

you're w- chief of staff- … and

783

you have a podcast.

784

it sounds like you're

just busy all the time.

785

And I also lead education efforts for

another business as well, the, Oh my God

786

Maricella: the Making

Game History podcast.

787

and you have doggies.

788

And I have a dog.

789

So the dog helps because the dog

comes and gets me when it's time for

790

him- Yeah … to play, so there's no

skipping out on the play with the dog.

791

I also mention, for me, play is still

often quiet and- Yeah … doesn't

792

need to take a lot of time.

793

I always keep a journal that looks

different often than a lot of people's

794

journals 'cause it might have pages

like this- I love that … with

795

little, you know, gelatos.

796

Drawing.

797

And sometimes with

collaging and such that way.

798

Oh, I love that.

799

So for me, play sometimes is just picking

up my journal or picking up Lego bricks

800

or something and giving myself 10 minutes.

801

Doesn't need to take longer than that.

802

and it is…

803

I recognize it now as part

of what helps me think.

804

Part of what helps me be present, part

of what helps me process tough emotions.

805

So if I'm not playing in some

way, I am not at my best.

806

and so if I need, if my ba- rational

brain needs a justification to take

807

10 minutes out, I immediately have

it 'cause I know as soon as I've

808

had 10 minutes where I have played,

I can be more present with others.

809

I can think through something

more with greater clarity.

810

I can sit down and do another

hour of work if I need to, but

811

I need that play for myself.

812

Good knowing that, knowing yourself-

Yeah … in that way to know

813

that what will recharge you and

what will give you that space.

814

Yeah.

815

It's important.

816

if you could go back to when that

personal branding coach said-

817

Mary: "Play as your brand," and

you freaked out a little bit.

818

I'm putting words in your mouth.

819

Freaked out a little bit.

820

Fair.

821

What would you tell yourself?

822

That it is a strength and not a weakness.

823

I like that.

824

It is.

825

It really is.

826

Yeah.

827

I am going to borrow one of your

questions, because I am assuming- Mm-hmm

828

Maricella: you don't get asked that.

829

What's one invitation that you

would give the listeners to play?

830

Thank you for asking this.

831

I do love this question.

832

I love being able to hear so

many different ways that people

833

have answered it on my podcast.

834

And I think for me, my invitation to play

is sometime when you are feeling like

835

things are just a little bit tough, or

you're kind of stressed out of something,

836

this will sound strange, but pick up

some paper and literally rip it up.

837

Just ripping it up can

be a release of stress.

838

But then, if you wanna go even further,

take that paper that you've ripped up,

839

take some glue, maybe take some paint,

and create something in your journal using

840

just those ripped-up pieces of paper.

841

And the paper you rip up can

truly be, like, your to-do list.

842

It can be like whatever

it is that is around.

843

It does not have to be some

special piece of, base of paper.

844

I honestly, will keep the wrapping, like

the packaging, the brown craft packaging-

845

Mm-hmm … that comes in a lot of boxes.

846

I just keep that nearby sometimes too.

847

And so ripping it up, you're

making anything at, at all.

848

But there's something then about the

kinesthetic, once you try and create

849

something new with it, that can

also be a little bit, of a release.

850

Now you're shifting it.

851

You're transforming that thinking

from just release to creation.

852

And if you let yourself to surprise,

because your fingers might do something

853

that you did not have in mind,

you're not directing from your brain.

854

And so you get to kind of see

what emerges, and that element of

855

surprise can also be very beautiful.

856

I love that.

857

Thank you.

858

I did not ask you about your journey.

859

We went straight to play- … which is

usually not what I do in this podcast.

860

So maybe you're gonna have to come again.

861

I am happy to come again.

862

And we explored all sorts of

elements- We did … of my journey,

863

just not in a linear fashion.

864

Just not in a…

865

Yeah.

866

Thanks, Mary.

867

This was fun.

868

Oh, my pleasure.

869

That's it for today.

870

Thanks for listening.

871

If you like this episode, hit follow or

subscribe so you don't miss the next one.

872

And if it made you think, feel

something or yell, same out loud,

873

leave a quick rating or review.

874

It really helps.

875

If you didn't like it, just

pretend this never happened.

876

You can also subscribe on

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877

I'd love to hear from you.

878

Comes say hi on Instagram at

Quit my job pod, or email me

879

at quit my job [email protected].

880

See you next time.