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Robin Hunicke is an innovative American video game artist. She's also a professor of game design at UC Santa Cruz and the co-founder of Funomena. Hunicke is recognized in the industry for her support of independent game development, experimentation in game design, research in dynamic difficulty adjustment, and the advocacy of women within the games industry. In this interview, we discuss her unique take on games as art, and the process she uses to imbue her games with emotion. Visit www.playmakerspodcast.com to get access to the full blog post for this episode and much more!
Welcome to PlayMakers episode 8.
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:I'm your host, Jordan Blackman, and
on every episode, I interview a game
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:industry leader, legend, or luminary,
and I dive deep into their expertise
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:to help you learn things that are
gonna help you achieve creative and
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:business success in the game industry.
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:This week, we have Robin Honecke.
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:She's worked on The Sims.
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:She's got a new studio, Phenomenon,
that's doing some really cool stuff.
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:We talk about her unique and artistic
approach to game making, and In this
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:episode of Plamacus, Plamacus It's
not actually pronounced Plamacus, FYI.
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:Alright, enough goofing around,
let's talk about Robin Hunnicke.
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:So, Robin is someone who
really has had a truly luminary
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:career in the game industry.
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:She's worked on games including
The Sims, including Journey,
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:she's doing incredible stuff.
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:At, uh, her new studio phenomena
and that's F U N phenomena.
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:And on top of all that she teaches
game design at UC Santa Cruz.
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:So, uh, we talk about a lot of things.
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:First of all, we learned a little bit
about her unique path into the industry.
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:Then we spent some time talking about.
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:Uh, her approach to making games.
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:And it's an approach that has consistently
produced some really amazing, interesting,
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:beautiful, emotionally affecting games.
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:Now she is known in fact, for an
emotionally, uh, aware approach
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:and, and, uh, an approach that
involves putting the emotions that
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:are desired for the game to create.
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:front and center.
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:So we talk about that.
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:And also because she's a, she
accomplishes so much and does so much.
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:I also talked to her a little bit
about her productivity processes
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:and how she does all that stuff.
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:You know, I mean, you go to the phenomena
page and there's so many cool games being
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:worked on there and working at UC Santa
Cruz and she gives back to the gaming
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:community at GDC and, uh, and she's
an amazing guest on this show as well.
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:So.
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:Just an incredible person all around.
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:Very excited to share this
interview with Robin Hunneke.
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:You're listening to Plamacus.
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:Robin, it is so great
to have you on the show.
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:Thanks for coming on.
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:And thank you so much for having me.
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:So I wanted to start with learning about
your inspiration, about what brought
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:you into the industry and how that
happened, because you bring a very unique
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:voice to your work and it's amazing.
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:It's different than a lot of games, and
so I'm curious your path into games.
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:Yeah, you know, it's funny.
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:I started off as a curious
child, someone who loved to
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:play with Legos and make things.
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:I grew up in upstate New York in a
tiny town called Saratoga Springs,
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:which is right near Skidmore College.
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:It's a horse town.
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:I was outside most of my young adult life,
so I spent a lot of time climbing and
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:building and playing in the snow and my
dad was a, was an engineer and a builder.
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:My mom is actually a history buff,
but also, and a teacher, but also I'm
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:really into like crafting baskets,
weaving, making stuff like the old ways.
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:So I grew up really with like a hands
on, uh, education in how people made
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:like colonial crafts, for example.
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:Like I was, I'm a child of the 70s.
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:So it was like, you know, all right,
let's all make these soap from animal fat.
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:You know, I saw that in
your special collar today.
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:Let's hit, yeah, let's hit, you know,
hand, hand dip these candles or whatever.
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:Um, but, um, I also was, you know,
exposed to video games when they first
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:started coming out in the console
form through ColecoVision and then
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:Atari through friends of mine who
had those systems at their houses.
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:So my first, like, real video game
love was I fell in love with the
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:game Mule, like, in seventh grade.
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:I was playing it on a friend's
brother's Commodore 64.
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:And I just loved the idea that you
could play with somebody else and
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:then also play against the computer.
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:Like, to me, that was
just so mind blowing.
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:Like, I'd played Pitfall and, you know,
Mario games and stuff, but I'd never
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:really seen that kind of interactivity.
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:And then, when we finally did get a
Super Nintendo, and we're, you know,
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:playing other games and stuff, I
was like, you know, these games are
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:okay, but they're not as cool as M.
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:U.
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:L.
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:E.
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:Because M.
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:U.
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:L.
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:E., you can play with a machine,
and you can also kind of, like,
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:basically try to outdo each other
in, in the real world space.
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:And so, I always had this experience of
games where it was like, yeah, no, popular
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:games are cool, but, like, I really like
these games that do weird, Different
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:ways of making you interact and I end
up going to school for Sort of I did a
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:choose your own adventure major and in
oral narrative and women's studies and
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:computer science I kind of fell into the
computer science thing because I didn't
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:want to take a math class So I took
this class called computer programming
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:as a liberal art and then I ended up
becoming a programmer and really have
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:like obsessed almost with like Programming
and learning how to use computers.
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:Um, and actually when I was taking
those classes, the minor was actually
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:math because there wasn't a computer
science department, uh, at my university,
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:which was the university of Chicago.
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:So I started working in a computer lab and
then I got really interested in working
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:with a graduate professor on robots.
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:And one of the people in that team was
working on an AI that could play the Sims
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:or SimCity for you, um, called Mayor.
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:And I started talking with
that person about video games.
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:I was like, Oh, you know, I used to love
video games when I was a kid and right
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:around that same time, mist came out.
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:And so then I started playing
a lot more video games.
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:And so I was in school and my early
twenties, like going from undergraduate
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:into graduate school thinking,
wow, you know, games are so cool.
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:What an interesting, you know, thing.
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:And then at some point, it
clicked with me that they were
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:actually designed by people.
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:That like, there was a whole community
of game designers, like, Will Wright
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:was a person that he had designed
SimCity, and then it was like a job.
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:And in that moment, I think I, I
really, I probably like just all the
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:neurons in my brain exploded at once.
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:It was like this like massive revelation,
like, this is a career that people do.
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:And from that point forward, I
just wanted to meet game designers
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:and talk to them about games.
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:And.
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:How did they build them?
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:How did they design them?
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:You know, because they kind of
combined all of my interests.
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:Computer programming, sound design and
music, art, animation, storytelling,
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:and then of course this funky
interactivity that you get with games,
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:like the interactivity I was talking
about with Mule, where you can be
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:playing against a system that's been
designed by a person, but then you
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:can also be playing against people.
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:That you are talking to
about how the system behaves.
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:And then you can play a game with
somebody where you're both trying to
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:figure out how the system behaves.
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:And I just, that combination of like
human communication with each other
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:and human computer interaction was
just, it was like so sticky for me.
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:And I think it was really the only
place I felt at home, honestly.
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:I went to the Game Developers
Conference in:
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:was the first time I went.
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:Um, I crashed into friends cars.
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:floor in their hotel room.
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:I got a pass by kind of sidling up to
someone that was part of the organizing
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:committee and, you know, basically
begging them for a free pass because
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:I was a broke ass grad student.
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:Um, and then, uh, and pretty much from
there, you know, that was the moment that
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:I knew like, okay, these are my people.
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:Like, I want to, I want to be
around game designers all the time.
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:Like, I want to talk to them all the time.
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:So, I started volunteering with the IGDA.
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:I got a couple of IGDA
scholarships, actually, so that
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:I could go to more conferences.
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:Oh, that's great.
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:And, yeah, and I started volunteering
to help, um, design a curriculum
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:to teach games in colleges.
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:Because I was like, well, ooh, wouldn't
it be so cool if you could actually
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:major in games and game design?
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:Because at the time, you couldn't do that.
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:And then I think that the other really
formative experience for me was I had
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:some friends that I'd met in this period
of time when I was like a grad student
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:that organized, um, this get together in
Oakland where we were all going to kind
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:of, uh, get a bunch of machines from
Intel and then make games on them and
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:then just give them away for free, which
at the time was a really bizarre idea.
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:And we decided to call it the
Indie Game Jam, and it was
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:like the first game jam ever.
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:Wow.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah, and so I was the first female
game jammer on the planet Earth.
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:That is so cool.
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:Yeah, so we started the Game Jam, and
then we founded this little get together
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:called the Experimental Gameplay Workshop,
which is now in its, like, 16th year
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:at GDC, where we showed the games off
to a bunch of our peers at GDC, and
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:that really sealed the deal for me.
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:I was like, this is the best thing ever.
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:I didn't even really care if I ever had a
career commercially in games, because most
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:of the people that were at the Indie Game
Jam, like, I'm like Chris Hecker and Sean
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:Barrett and Brian Sharpe, a lot of the
people that I'm still really close friends
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:with, Otman Binstock, who's now at Oculus.
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:They were all just kind of like bumming
around doing odd jobs and like some of
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:them had commercial jobs, but mostly
they were just kind of doing research
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:on the fringes of the games community.
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:And I really was like, I kind of
associated myself with that crew.
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:Like, okay, I'm sort of a
programmer, but I'm really
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:interested in experimental gameplay.
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:Like John Blow was another
founding member of that group.
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:Um, and this is, you know, this is before
there was any XBLA or any of that stuff.
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:stuff.
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:You really, the only way you
could get a game published
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:was if you were a publisher.
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:So if you made a game, you had to go
and pitch it to a publisher and then you
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:had to get permission from them to even
put it on a disc to put it on a console.
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:So it was a really different
environment for me.
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:So I think even as I was becoming a
game designer and learning the way
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:to eventually do an interview and get
my first job, which was on the Sims.
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:Like, even as I was entering that path
for me, the idea of game design as a
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:career was more about, um, being on the
fringes of that sort of more corporate
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:culture and trying to be more artistic
and more innovative than it was about
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:like working on my favorite game, you
know, which I ended up getting to do.
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:I did end up getting to work
on the Sims, which was great.
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:But when I started off, it was more like,
I was just really curious to kind of.
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:Make stuff and see what happens you've
really you know made that your your path
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:And I think in a lot of ways that the
game industry has has stretched towards
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:you Yes, and it's you know, people
always say to me Well, it must be so
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:intimidating to be a woman in games or
you know Oh, it's like it seems like the
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:community so toxic or this or that and
To me, it's like, you know, there are
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:times when, yeah, like the internet is
a jerk, but that that's just, yeah, it's
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:like, that's just like, as we're all
seeing now, that's just the internet.
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:I find that the community of game
development for the most part, and
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:especially the people that I are in my
circle, experimental game designers, I
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:would say, are some of the most open,
loving, accepting, diverse people on the
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:planet earth because they're real weirdos.
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:You know, they don't really
fit in to any one category.
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:I mean, you don't see them.
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:sit at home alone for seven years making
Stardew Valley if you just like could just
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:go anywhere and just check in with anybody
like you're a really unique individual
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:if you do that you're the kind of person
that is like you wake up thinking about
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:things that will make your game better
and like that's that's not a lot of people
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:on this planet you know so I think it's
a really special community and one that
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:I'm honestly I'm really honored to be a
part of and to see it Spanned the way that
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:it has in the last 10 years has been on.
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:It's just been amazing.
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:I, I would say over the last 15
years, the games industry has
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:changed to become so much more than
it was when I first started, and,
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:and I'm really, really excited to
see the future of, of that change.
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:One of the things we're gonna talk
more about your work in a little bit,
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:but it has a very human quality and I
think it's also interesting to hear.
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:I hear that also in your career
and in the way you've developed it.
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:And, um, and that's also been a
theme actually with some of the most
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:successful people I've had on the show.
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:And I think it's, it's great.
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:Thank you.
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:It's deliberate.
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:I mean, I think about it often.
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:I ask myself often, you know,
what can I do to be of service?
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:Like, what is the, what is the goal?
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:You know, why am I doing what I'm doing?
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:Cause it's a short ride.
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:You know, you're only on the
planet for, I mean, compared to
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:most rocks, you're like a baby.
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:So it's just an interesting, it's
interesting to think about how short
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:your time is and to you, it seems
so long, but really like even to
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:your, the tree in your yard, it's
probably like, you're just a blink.
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:And we only get to make so many games.
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:That's true.
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:Well, I'm curious to learn about some of
your heroes and mentors along the way.
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:I think you may have mentioned some
of them already, but I'd love to,
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:to maybe pick out two or three that
really, really impacted you and
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:the way you think about your work.
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:Yeah.
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:Well, I mean, I always sort of say that
there were, there were two people that
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:were extremely supportive of me doing what
I do, uh, or very early on in my career.
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:Um, or maybe it would be more like two
sets of people and, and one set would be
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:the set of like looking glass MIT folks.
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:Who, uh, just around the time that
I was kind of really seriously
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:considering getting into this as
a career, Lookingglass closed.
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:And so, that would include the folks
from Harmonix, and Lookingglass, and a
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:lot of other people that end up going
off and doing really interesting things.
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:Um, Warren Spector, and, uh, Doug
Church, and I think Chris and John.
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:Doug, Chris, John, and Warren were sort
of my, uh, Go to mentors for a really
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:long time when I was in grad school And
then the other set of people would be
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:the people that I've touched my life in
the commercial setting So people like
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:Will Wright who sort of was the first
person to say to me that I actually
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:sounded like a game designer He said
it to me in like a casual conversation.
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:We were having at a conference
Oh my god, like, really?
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:I'm just an academic.
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:And he's like, no, you sure
sound like a game designer.
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:And he's been super supportive
of me throughout the years.
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:That's a pretty good Will
impersonation you got there.
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:Yeah, he's, he's so great.
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:I really, I really appreciate his brain.
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:Um, uh, uh, Rod Humble also was,
uh, was a fellow collaborator and
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:someone that really helped me.
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:I don't know, Rod.
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:Who's Rod?
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:Rod is, um, he was actually, uh, sort
of running the Sims franchise, uh,
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:while I was working there on MySims.
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:He made a game, which we showed
at Experimental Gameplay Workshop
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:really early on, called The Marriage,
which was one of my favorite games.
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:I think I remember that.
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:Yeah, one of my favorite
experimental games.
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:Yeah, so you're like in a room
on a, on a, in an apartment.
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:It's nighttime and you're
trying to go out and you talk.
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:Is this the right?
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:No, no, that's actually facade.
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:Okay.
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:I was thinking facade.
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:Yeah.
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:Facades also, that's another
colleague of mine actually who I work
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:with at school now, who is also a
real supportive person in my life.
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:But, um, no, this is just a very
abstract game about, uh, And it's his
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:interpretation of what makes a marriage
work, or what makes a marriage not work.
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:And they kind of float around on screen.
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:Um, it's a very, very,
very, very abstract game.
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:And it's very, very much told from
his unique perspective about his
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:own personal experience of marriage.
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:But, to me, what it did at the time
was it showed me that you could You
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:could really, like, conceptualize a
process that was so intimate and so
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:complex as a series of actions in a
space and have it be really moving.
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:Um, and so he was, he was
also really supportive.
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:Um, and then there are a lot of women
in my later career that have been
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:fantastic, including Siobhan Reddy
from MeA Molecule and Angie Smets, who,
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:uh, runs the guerrilla team that just
shipped, uh, shipped Horizon Zero Dawn.
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:Um, they've been incredibly supportive
of me as I've, um, As I've moved
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:forward in my career, not just as a
designer, but as a studio CEO and like
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:a person who's a lead in a leadership
role, um, and Kelly Wallach, who, uh,
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:now runs the IGF and Indie Megabooth.
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:I think those three women have been
really, really influential and my
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:ability to see myself as, um, as a
strong leader who's also sensitive
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:to the needs of others, because I
think we get a lot of role models.
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:In leadership context, especially
where it's like you're supposed to be
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:tough, you know, um, and, uh, and I've
learned over the years that the, the
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:approach of really having that sort
of empathetic, like putting yourself
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:in the shoes of the other person first
and foremost, seeking to understand
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:before seeking to be understood.
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:Those three ladies have really given
me a lot of feedback about that.
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:I used this question partly to
help, uh, help me figure out who
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:I want to invite on the show next.
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:So that was great because it was, it was
a lot of people to So thanks for that.
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:Now, as far as, uh, as far as the
next step in the interview, I wanted
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:to ask about, uh, what you do unique.
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:So we talked about a lot of people who've
influenced you, you know, and I'm going
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:to tell you what my thoughts after, but
you already used the word several times.
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:So, I mean, I believe that games.
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:Are about interactivity and expression
of yourself and also expression
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:of, um, of concepts through action.
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:And so, you know, I, while I was in
graduate school and starting to do all
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:this outreach work and volunteering and
meeting people, one of the things that
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:I started doing was teaching in this
game design workshop, uh, run actually
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:by a Looking Glass alum, Marc LeBlanc.
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:And we ended up kind of collaborating.
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:I wrote a paper on which he's an author,
um, about this philosophy of mechanics.
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:Dynamics, aesthetics, and you
know, the way that I have read that
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:very influential on me personally.
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:That's awesome.
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:I mean, I, when I was first exposed to
the workshop, I thought this is amazing.
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:Like, let's really delve into it.
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:And I really, I ended up dropping
out of my PhD in computer
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:science to go work for the Sims.
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:But if I had finished, I mean, you
know, when I eventually write a book,
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:which I hope I will someday, it'll be
about this, this theory, because I think
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:it applies to a lot of other things.
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:But, you know, this idea that There are
the mechanics of the system, which are
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:the rules, the dynamics of the system,
which is the behavior that emerges
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:when you're all sitting around the
table, say, playing poker, you know,
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:it doesn't say in poker that you have
to bluff, but everybody does it, right?
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:That's a dynamic.
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:And then the aesthetic outcome, which
is the feeling of like, Shodden Friday
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:that you get when somebody folds
and you know that you were bluffing.
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:Like, the aesthetic outcome of a game of
poker is often that you feel like you're
341
:secretly smarter or took advantage of
other people and that feeling of shodden
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:Friday and getting over on other people
is what makes poker such a cutthroat game.
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:And so juicy, even when the stakes are
really low, there's that feeling of
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:cleverness that comes from it, right?
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:Unless you're losing constantly.
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:Well, that's the other thing.
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:Which happens a lot.
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:The problem with poker is that
three people at the table, three
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:to five people, have the opposite
experience of you when you win.
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:And I'm actually terrible at poker
because my tells are too big, so I don't
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:play it professionally by a long shot.
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:But this is like, you know, this
idea that like the feeling or the
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:outcome of the game It's a unique
expression of its rules and then the
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:interaction of its rules with people
has been the cornerstone of my career.
355
:And so when I started thinking about,
well, okay, if that's true about games,
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:what I want to build, well, I want to
build games to give people new feelings.
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:I want to build games to give
people feelings about other people.
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:I want to build games that give people
feelings of understanding or appreciation,
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:love, sadness, loss, recovery.
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:Like, I'm really interested in topics that
are about the things that I feel other
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:media doesn't necessarily address as well.
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:It's a lot harder, I mean, to, to
really understand what someone totally
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:different from you is going through.
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:Um, if you're just
reading it or watching it.
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:Because there's always that room
for you being outside looking in.
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:But if you're doing it, if you're walking
in that person's shoes, moment to moment,
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:and having to make tough decisions
based on their situation, which you are
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:embodying, there's, there's a moment
in there which is so unique to games.
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:And I think the sort of, sort of sad
truth about games is it's very easy
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:to make a game that's as entertaining
as a very popular, you know, Um,
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:explosive summer blockbuster movie,
or that's as entertaining as, um,
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:you know, uh, a novel, um, you know,
based on this idea of like, there's
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:a bad guy and you got to get revenge.
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:Like, those kinds of things are really
easy to do with a video game, especially
375
:if the mechanic that you put in the video
game is like, Shooting or jumping because
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:shooting and jumping are really easy
to execute on screen and then you can
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:just slap the story on and there you go.
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:Right.
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:And like those are the things
that we're really best at.
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:Well we, we know what
the aesthetic outcome is.
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:Very, we, we already understand it and
therefore we can, we know also that those
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:mechanics are then gonna drive through.
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:It's a hundred percent those
dynamics and get there.
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:Exactly.
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:It's like you don't even have
to really do that much work.
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:The really hard thing to do with a game.
387
:Is to, is to make it be really good at
what it's uniquely good at, which is
388
:using a set of mechanics to create new
dynamics in a person that then create
389
:this totally unexpected emotional outcome.
390
:So like something like Journey,
where Jenova was like, I want
391
:to create a genuine connection
between strangers online.
392
:When we work backwards from that
feeling to, okay, well, what's
393
:the dynamic that would really be
existing between these two people?
394
:Such that they would feel awe
and wonder towards each other and
395
:on wonder towards the unknown.
396
:Okay, we work backwards to the dynamics
Okay, well, they trust each other and
397
:they'd help each other and they'd want
to guide each other and they'd want
398
:to support one another Okay well then
what are the mechanics that lead to
399
:that and like I'm not gonna lie a lot
of the stuff that we tried out was just
400
:like Platforming and we even actually
at one point as a joke implemented
401
:a, uh, a laser cannon idea from the
sky just to do it for stress relief.
402
:But, but for the most part, we had
to work through a lot of really
403
:kind of commonplace mechanics to
get to the few simple things that
404
:journey does that create that feeling
of trust between strangers and
405
:eventually lead to that connection.
406
:You know, it was really a
process of winnowing out.
407
:And so for me.
408
:I really am interested in that work.
409
:I'm interested in thinking about,
okay, what if I made a game about lust?
410
:Or what if I made a game about recovery?
411
:Or what if I made a game about grief?
412
:And then work backwards.
413
:Okay, well, what would the dynamics
be between the player and the
414
:characters in that game or the
players that were playing it?
415
:And then work backward to that and
figure out, okay, what are the rules
416
:that the system needs to implement?
417
:That work to me is the most fulfilling
and interesting work in game design.
418
:And, you know, I love playing
games that are not that.
419
:But when I'm making a game, and
when I'm collaborating with other
420
:people You know, that's the kind
of work that I want to be doing.
421
:And I want my games to be different.
422
:I want them to be experimental and
artistic and to approach the problem of
423
:interactivity from a fresh perspective.
424
:I always want to be
working on something fresh.
425
:Um, even if it's just fresh for me, it's
like at some point, maybe I'll build a
426
:massively multiplayer roguelike, you know?
427
:Um, but when I do it, I'm not going
to do it from the mechanics forward.
428
:I'm going to do it from the feeling
backwards, you know, I'm going
429
:to figure out those mechanics.
430
:Based on my desire to create a
feeling in the, in the player.
431
:And that, that really necessitates
that word, which is empathy.
432
:In order to understand that goal, you
have to put yourself in the shoes of
433
:a, of an everyday, common game player.
434
:Or a person who's never played games, or
a person who thinks games are horrible.
435
:And then try to win them over
through the process of design.
436
:And I think that that's, that focus on
doing, doing it backwards, basically.
437
:And focusing on the end first.
438
:A user centered design is
sometimes what it's referred
439
:to in more technical circles.
440
:That process of user centered
activity requires being in
441
:the footsteps of that user.
442
:And thinking about Who is the
player and why are they playing
443
:my game and, you know, what are
they going to get out of it?
444
:I want to back up for a second and
make sure the audience is, is with
445
:us because, uh, the audience is, is
not, is even not just game designers.
446
:So when you're talking about mechanics,
dynamics, aesthetics, we're saying,
447
:Hey, what are the rules of the game?
448
:That's the mechanics.
449
:The dynamics are the runtime,
unpredictable ways that those
450
:rules are coming together.
451
:To create some sort of experience
and the aesthetics is the the effect
452
:in the person who's playing well.
453
:How does it make them feel?
454
:What is the subjective
quality exactly exactly?
455
:And so, for example, in in journey, which
is a game in which you journey to come out
456
:and you see another person in the distance
maybe and you can connect with them.
457
:What we did was we built an online
multiplayer system where you're
458
:just walking through the world
and this other person appears.
459
:Normally in online multiplayer games,
there's a lobby and you go in and you're
460
:dealing with all this stuff, trying
to get matched up with someone at the
461
:same skill level, blah, blah, blah.
462
:We just got rid of all that and
made it so that when you're in
463
:the game, you start playing.
464
:If you're online, other people
who are playing online near
465
:you show up in your game.
466
:And we created a server that made
that seamless online connection
467
:the focus of the gameplay.
468
:And so the core sort of rule of the game
is that you need to get from the beginning
469
:of the game to the end of the game.
470
:And then the other kind of rule
that's in that world is that when
471
:you are close enough to someone else
who's playing, but not so close that
472
:they're just going to pop into your
universe, They become visible to you.
473
:So we basically hide all the people that
are playing the game except one person.
474
:And you can connect with
one person at a time.
475
:And this idea of having a long journey
and only being able to see one other
476
:pilgrim on the same route as you go
means that you have a choice as a player.
477
:Do I stay with this pilgrim or do I leave?
478
:Do I try to, you know, reinforce
the connection with this person and
479
:call to them and dance with them?
480
:and spend time with them, which has its
own rewards, or do I walk my own way?
481
:And that, just even making that decision,
is a huge, it's a huge difference
482
:from the way that most online games
are made, and that's just simply
483
:through the design of, of, of the
mechanics, and the resulting dynamics.
484
:You know, as you've explained it, and
explained the, uh, Jenova's idea of
485
:having a game where you could have a
real connection with someone online,
486
:the insight that I had was, it has this
feeling of loneliness, of course it
487
:does, because if you want to connect with
someone, you have to first Make that,
488
:you know, put the, put the people in
some amount of isolation and suddenly.
489
:The person you interact with,
you know, is a warm fire.
490
:Exactly.
491
:And so, you know, when we were starting
to think about building Luna, you know,
492
:one of the things I really want people
to understand about this character is
493
:that the character has made a mistake.
494
:And so, you know, when we
make games, a lot of times.
495
:They're about getting revenge or,
like, correcting a mistake, going
496
:back in time and fixing something so
that, like, it's better for everybody.
497
:But that's not really
how life is, you know?
498
:Like, in life, you make mistakes and
then you have to learn to live with them.
499
:And learning to live with your
mistakes sometimes means giving up
500
:on a relationship or apologizing
for something that you said.
501
:Sometimes it means letting go of a
toxic relationship in in your family.
502
:Or in your life, sometimes it means being
very angry and then letting that anger go.
503
:But like mistakes are not something that
you just erase from your life, right?
504
:And so when we, when we talked about
the game, we first started making the
505
:game, Martin, my co founder was like,
well, what, what should we be doing?
506
:And I was like, we should think about
this question, you know, of mistakes.
507
:And so actually for the first, let's
say maybe the first year while we were
508
:doing previs and I was like, Folding
paper and doing all these things
509
:about transformation and looking at
transformative art and fairy tales and
510
:the idea of a mistake in our culture.
511
:I did one very specific
exercise with everyone I met.
512
:Every new person that I met, whether
it was a cab driver or a friend or
513
:whatever, for about a year, I would
ask them, why do people do things
514
:that they know are bad for them?
515
:Because in a way, a mistake is
kind of like, if it's an accidental
516
:mistake, we don't really punish
ourselves so much about it.
517
:It's when they're deliberate.
518
:It's like, I made a choice.
519
:And it turned out it was really
bad for me or I made a choice.
520
:It turned out it was really
bad for somebody else.
521
:And so I thought, okay, well I'm really
interested in the specific mistake
522
:of like knowing something's not gonna
be good for you, but doing it anyway.
523
:So I'm gonna ask everybody about that.
524
:And I think what you learn as you, as
you begin a project like that, from that
525
:perspective of what's the feeling is
that you learn so much more about people.
526
:If you can be open to that kind
of practice, and you know, people
527
:would tell me all kinds of stuff.
528
:Sometimes people would say, well,
they do things that they know are
529
:bad for them because they don't care.
530
:And they're just like the thrill,
you know, sometimes that people would
531
:say, well, it's because they think the
benefits are going to outweigh the costs.
532
:And then later they realized they didn't.
533
:Um, some people would say, because nobody
really knows what a mistake is until it's
534
:already happened, you know, and as you
start to think it through, you realize,
535
:wow, like it's such a rich area to
explore a character that makes a mistake.
536
:You know, and then has to
actually live with that mistake
537
:and try to figure it out.
538
:The residue of the mistake is the, is
kind of there through the experience.
539
:I mean, I, I didn't even
realize that aspect of the game.
540
:Well, of course, I mean, you know,
when you play the game, like just with
541
:Journey, when you play Journey, I don't
know that most people really get The
542
:core conversations we had about, you
know, the reason that we need empathy
543
:in the world and the reason it's
important to love other people and
544
:treat everyone as unique and special.
545
:Like, there were a lot of deep
conversations that we had about the
546
:philosophy of togetherness and our
society and its obsession with the
547
:fast pace and digital technologies
and how, you know, really like.
548
:How often do you really
feel alone in life?
549
:Maybe you go on a hike by
yourself once a year, maybe.
550
:How often do people really feel
comfortable putting themselves
551
:so far away from all of humanity?
552
:And yet, how often do you feel isolated?
553
:How often do you feel
completely separate, right?
554
:Like, that's actually very common.
555
:It can feel very isolated and
separate while sitting on a crowded
556
:train, you know, playing your DS.
557
:You know, like it's totally possible and
so, but I don't know that everyone that
558
:plays Journey gets that feeling from it,
but there's, like you said, there's the
559
:residue of that conversation in the game.
560
:And I think with Luna, the whole point
of it for, for me and for the people
561
:that are working on the game is to sort
of think through, well, fairy tales
562
:and fables really do try to educate us.
563
:about mistakes.
564
:And what they're trying to tell
us more often than not is that you
565
:learn from your mistakes, that the
mistake can be recovered from, and
566
:that there are some kinds of mistakes
that even though they seem terrible,
567
:turn out to be a real benefit.
568
:You know, one of the most common fairy
tales is the fool who does everything
569
:wrong and in the end ends up king, you
know, they, they, like they, they just
570
:defy conventional wisdom and then somehow
end up getting this really lucky break.
571
:And, you know, that story that
like life is a lot more about chaos
572
:and lack of control and being open
to the future rather than being
573
:about doing everything perfectly.
574
:I mean, what an amazing message
to even, even if it's just
575
:subconscious to get that across.
576
:I think it would be so important
and healing for, for society.
577
:I mean, to get us away from this idea
that we can do everything right the first
578
:time, which really, honestly, I think if
we could, we would, we would be robots.
579
:And, and, and that would be so fun.
580
:And the mistakes are how we learn.
581
:They're who we are even
before we make the mistake.
582
:Exactly.
583
:You know, there was a piece that
we listened to on NPR when we were
584
:first starting to work on Luna about
a family that had a trauma in its
585
:past that had kind of hidden the
trauma from future generations.
586
:And at some point, one of the characters
in the story said, if you, if you
587
:deny the mistake, if you deny the
trauma, the reality of that mistake,
588
:then you're denying who you are.
589
:You're really not acknowledging
that this is part of who you are.
590
:And it's only by accepting it and
actually acknowledging it that you can
591
:really become who you want to become.
592
:Because otherwise you're
always defined by that denial.
593
:And I thought that was just
so interesting, you know?
594
:Yeah, absolutely.
595
:And, and, you know, society
sometimes figures that, figures
596
:that out when we memorialize
things and And sometimes we don't.
597
:Yeah.
598
:Yeah.
599
:I think it's a very interesting process.
600
:So, you know, to bring it back to this
idea of aesthetics, this aesthetic
601
:outcome of being about transformation
through trauma, being about, about
602
:the value of learning from tough
situations or unexpected change.
603
:That really is like.
604
:I want that to be clear somehow
in the game at its end, and I want
605
:players to experience a sense of
letting go, of letting go of something
606
:that is deep inside of them, giving
themselves permission to let it go.
607
:I think that if every person that
played Luna would just reach down
608
:inside and take a little scribble that
was in there that was something that
609
:they felt bad about, and let it go,
that would be such an amazing thing.
610
:You know, it's a terror.
611
:It's a terribly lofty goal.
612
:And like, I think, you know, being an
artist, one always has goals that are
613
:much larger than what one can accomplish.
614
:But I believe in having those
goals from the beginning.
615
:Have you been to Burning Man?
616
:No, I have not actually.
617
:I've never been because I'm I'm very
pale and I'm afraid of getting a sunburn,
618
:but people always encourage me to go.
619
:I will go sometime.
620
:There's a big part of the experience that
has to do specifically with letting go.
621
:That's why I brought it up.
622
:Um, there's, uh, every year there's
a temple built and people bring, uh,
623
:memories of things that they've lost
or mistakes that they've made and they,
624
:they put it up in the temple and, and
the whole thing is burned and it's
625
:a very cathartic, very sad moment.
626
:Uh, a lot of people are crying.
627
:Yeah, you know I think that our ability
to sort of acknowledge failure and to live
628
:through it is, it's, it's not helped by
a lot of cultural messages and especially
629
:marketed messages about you know, what's
the perfect person, what's the perfect
630
:woman, what's the perfect life, what
kind of car you should drive, you know,
631
:what what it means to be successful.
632
:Um, I have friends, I have a lot of
friends now who are in their 40s and
633
:50s who are saying to themselves,
you know, I'm going to give myself
634
:permission to stop working in this career
path and do something I really love.
635
:I'm going to go to Burning Man
and build something huge in
636
:the desert and set it on fire.
637
:That's actually something that someone
said to me literally Literally days
638
:ago, um, who'd spent a long time,
um, building a career for themselves.
639
:Um, they're an immigrant, they
like worked super hard and
640
:they got to where they are now.
641
:And they realized, you know,
this ladder kind of, it's
642
:like, I'm on the last rung now.
643
:Like I'm here, I made it and
now I want to do something else.
644
:And like confronting that is so hard.
645
:It's so scary.
646
:And at the same time, it's like.
647
:If you don't confront it, I mean,
you're not really living, right?
648
:That's, that's, I think when I, when
I, when people ask me why I like game
649
:design, I say, I love game design
because it is so hard, so hard.
650
:I asked my students all the time, like,
okay, let's, let's say you wanted to
651
:make a game about a child that you had
that died of cancer, how would you do it?
652
:How did Ryan and his team
come up with the ideas?
653
:For that drug and cancer, like really ask
yourself, how do you make the experience
654
:of being told by a doctor that your
child is going to die in three months, a
655
:thing that is interactive, that also is
respectful of that process and also, gives
656
:you a sense of what they went through.
657
:Like, how would you do that?
658
:It's so hard, you know?
659
:How do you build a game that's all
about perspective and looking at the
660
:world from a different perspective?
661
:Like, you have to basically
do all this integrative,
662
:innovative graphics programming.
663
:You know, when John built The
Witness, he had to do a lot of work.
664
:on the game engine side to make
the puzzles in that game possible.
665
:Like, it's some of the most amazing
programming, I think, in a video game.
666
:Like, it's very hard to do design when you
start to think about, like, game design
667
:as the possibility space of all human
feeling and not just points or getting
668
:rank or, you know, getting all the gear
so that you can kill the giant dragon
669
:at the end of a of a series of rooms.
670
:You know, it's a lot more than that.
671
:Absolutely.
672
:And this, you know, this way of
processing design is very, you know,
673
:it's not the typical conversation, uh,
that, that happens and certainly that,
674
:that I have, um, and I love it for me.
675
:It's very exciting to, to
talk about it like this.
676
:I have, I have.
677
:Two, two questions about this
that I want to talk to you about.
678
:One is how, how do you do it?
679
:I mean, you've talked about putting
yourself in the shoes of the player.
680
:You've talked about kind of
understanding the experience itself.
681
:Any tips on connecting those lines?
682
:And then, and then secondly, and we can
get back to this, for, for, you know,
683
:designers who are maybe working on a more
traditional game, Uh, you know, how can
684
:they fit some of this into their work?
685
:So I think that people ask me a
lot of times, where do I start?
686
:And what I ask them to do is
to just imagine the most simple
687
:paper prototype possible.
688
:Even to just do it with like
playing cards or a couple of
689
:dice and a hand handmade deck.
690
:Try to think about how to get to
the feeling that they wanna get to.
691
:So, you know, um.
692
:I have a, I had a student at school,
actually, she's still, she's getting
693
:ready to graduate soon, um, who was
in an autobiographical games class
694
:that I taught, and, uh, she lives
with autism, she's on the spectrum,
695
:and she wanted to give people the
feeling of passing with a disability,
696
:like, okay, what does that feel like?
697
:And so she modified a game of set, which
is a matching game that you play with
698
:cards, where she gives everybody a list
of, uh, five handicaps, five disabilities,
699
:five challenges, you know, depending on
the way you want to sort of think about
700
:them and, um, five abilities maybe.
701
:Um, and, uh, and they, they, they greatly
constrain the way that you play the game
702
:and then you roll a die and you get one.
703
:And no one knows, uh, what your
disability is, but as you're
704
:playing, they may become apparent.
705
:So, in the game, you can match sets
of things that are colored purple,
706
:or you can match sets of things
that have particular shapes in
707
:them, or certain numbers of things.
708
:And one of the handicaps may
say, you can't pick up anything.
709
:That is purple or you can't match things
with this particular shape in a river
710
:and these disabilities as you continue
to play Because everyone is looking at a
711
:shared set of cards and everyone can see
all the sets if you consistently don't
712
:call out a set Because it has something
to do with your disability Someone else
713
:can guess it and they can take half your
points and then you're out of the game
714
:and this idea of like there Being a public
information, you know common understanding
715
:about what is going on and that you can't
participate in that sort of dialogue
716
:because of this, this way of seeing, um,
was so immediately apparent to people
717
:that, that the fear of getting caught
out is really, it's very high, right?
718
:And the way that you get to that
idea is, is by thinking about what
719
:am I really trying to communicate
with this notion of passing?
720
:You know, what is it?
721
:Passing is really about
the fear of not passing.
722
:You know, and so it's really almost
like a philosophical introspection
723
:into the goal of the game.
724
:And the easiest way for me to get started
is often, yeah, just put something
725
:down on some cards, try to come up
with a little bit of randomness using
726
:dice or card passing rule, and just
like, just try to get to that feeling.
727
:Um, doing a very basic 2D prototype,
uh, where the motion, is movement
728
:was one of the first things that we
did with journey, just like sit down
729
:and build a top down 2d prototype of
multiple units moving in a space and
730
:then separate those people and only
let them talk by hitting the space bar.
731
:And when they hit the space bar, it
just says, Hey, Hey, and that's it, you
732
:know, limited amount of communication,
limited amount of information, but
733
:you have to collaborate to get out of
this, like, kind of top down dungeon.
734
:That was the first.
735
:Prototype for journey for for Luna because
we knew we wanted the touch and like
736
:the idea of sort of getting in touch or
like transformation to be center to it.
737
:We started off with folding paper
origami and talking about what folding
738
:origami felt like, and then moved from
origami into systems of untangling
739
:lines like the puzzles in the game
are actually about kind of cats cradle
740
:type scrambles, which has that similar
feeling of kind of disambiguation
741
:or like finally seeing the shape.
742
:in the lines, because paper folding is
actually really dry and kind of hard to
743
:do in, in, uh, in a video game context.
744
:But that idea of sort of sorting through
the shape and figuring it out, almost like
745
:untangling a necklace or like a pile of
string, that feeling is really satisfying.
746
:And it's also, you know, Uh, we found,
really, it lies at the base of relaxation.
747
:A lot of things people do, like,
with their hands to relax, like,
748
:say, knitting, you know, or quilting,
they have this quality of, like, kind
749
:of mindless movement of the hands.
750
:And like, I really love that idea of,
like, being able to get into that zone of
751
:just moving things to see what you see.
752
:So, I think a lot of it is
about really staying minimal.
753
:The worst thing you can do when you start
a game design is think about what the
754
:world will look like and over focus on
the art or think about what the story
755
:will be and over focus on the narrative
because you can write a really great
756
:narrative and then have crappy movement
mechanics, crappy, you know, jumping or
757
:whatever it is that you end up using.
758
:It's a gaminess will be bad.
759
:Gaminess will be bad.
760
:Exactly.
761
:So like you really need to think about
that mechanics to aesthetics pipeline.
762
:What is the feeling going to
be because of what you do.
763
:And then I, someone actually asked me
this in class the other day, like they
764
:said you never mention the art style
when you're talking about this stuff.
765
:And I was like, that's because the art
style is secondary to understanding why
766
:the player is doing what they're doing.
767
:Because if it's just art style, then,
I mean, then why not make it a film?
768
:You know, why not make it a picture?
769
:You know, you could convey the
same feeling in a still image.
770
:If it's really a game, then it has
to be about what the player is doing.
771
:And a film shouldn't be
just about art style either.
772
:I mean, that would, that would
also be kind of a cop out.
773
:Well, you know, I'm actually
kind of a fan of, like, really
774
:deeply philosophical films.
775
:Films with almost no dialogue,
like, uh, uh, Solaris, the original
776
:Solaris, I love that movie.
777
:I love that movie.
778
:I love that movie so much.
779
:It's one of my favorite
movies of all time.
780
:And, you know, even like the
Blade Runner with no voiceover,
781
:like the director's cut, love it.
782
:Like I really, really love, um,
atmospheric photographic films,
783
:you know, that are very much
about the sequencing of images.
784
:And the way that that makes you feel
beyond, you know, beyond dialogue.
785
:And it's one of the reasons why,
like, games like Journey or Luna, I've
786
:always been so adamant that we not
lean on dialogue, if at all possible.
787
:It's not in the art style, it's
in the, it's in the structure.
788
:Yes, it's in the, yeah, actually,
he has a really fantastic book, um,
789
:uh, I think it's called Painting
in Time, if I'm not mistaken.
790
:Uh, I'm gonna forget now, but, um, It's
a beautiful book about the process of
791
:coming up with these films that he's made
and I mean Tarnovsky isn't just a genius.
792
:So it's, it's very like, it's
almost like reading Werner Herzog.
793
:It like has such a, has
a deep quality to it.
794
:Right, it's penetrating.
795
:But um, yeah, no, it's very
much about juxtaposition.
796
:Yeah, penetrating, exactly.
797
:That's a great word for it.
798
:In a way, you helped me actually discover
what I think the answer is, but my
799
:question was about, You know, for, for
maybe, uh, game designers who aren't,
800
:you know, whole cloth coming up with
a new concept but working within the
801
:constraint of a, of a pre existing,
you know, design or a pre existing, uh,
802
:brand, how can they, you know, bring
some of that in to what they're doing?
803
:So when I first started working at
The Sims, I was just working on The
804
:Sims 2, I was working on an expansion
pack open for business and responsible
805
:for object design and working with
all the animators and engineers to
806
:make objects for the expansion pack.
807
:And it was like honestly one of my
favorite jobs of all time because
808
:I got to play my favorite game.
809
:And I didn't have any direct reports,
and so I could just go to work,
810
:do awesome work, and then go home
and play more games, and so it was
811
:really low stress, high impact.
812
:But then eventually I got promoted to
work on a new version of The Sims for
813
:the Wii, which hadn't been released yet.
814
:So this was one of EA's very
first Wii titles called MySims.
815
:And MySims was supposed to be a game that
would be more casual than The Sims, and
816
:because it was a console title and it
was going to be coming out on the Wii,
817
:we really wanted it to resonate in Japan.
818
:Spent a lot of time in Tokyo and
Kyoto interviewing girls who could
819
:potentially become Sims fans.
820
:But you know, Sims hadn't really
picked up in Japan, so there was
821
:like a lot of discussion about why.
822
:And one of the things that I decided
to do when I was working on the
823
:game, um, my friend Joe Marish,
Maris actually was the one that,
824
:um, talked to me about doing this.
825
:He said, this is the core flow of.
826
:The Sims, and he kind
of drew that out for me.
827
:And then he was working on Sims
Castaway, which is one of my
828
:favorite Sims, uh, offshoots.
829
:And he's like, this is the core loop
of Sims Castaway, which is really about
830
:finding objects and crafting stuff.
831
:And he was like, what's your
version of the Sims going to be?
832
:What's the core loop going to be about?
833
:And I went and I looked at both of those
loops, and I decided that, like, the
834
:aspect of He had really focused on this
idea of doing more with less, because
835
:The Sims is generally about buying stuff.
836
:And he was like, well, okay, if
you're on a desert island, you have
837
:to build everything from scratch.
838
:So the whole game is going to be
about this cool crafting system.
839
:And for me, I, I really loved
the idea of crafting and I had
840
:really loved Animal Crossing.
841
:So I was like, what if this is a really
cheapy style version of The Sims,
842
:but instead of crafting for yourself,
you are crafting for other people.
843
:You were giving things away.
844
:What if the fundamental loop of The Sims
is In this game wasn't about getting more
845
:stuff to get promoted, but it was about
giving away things to people who wanted to
846
:move to the town so they could basically
start their own little business there.
847
:So you start, you start off with a
little town that's empty and then
848
:as you basically collect items and
build furniture for these businesses.
849
:These little people out of like pixel
blocks, basically, they can start
850
:their own little setup in your town and
they come to the town because you've
851
:basically welcomed them with these gifts.
852
:And the more you do that, the
more diverse your town gets,
853
:the more interesting it gets.
854
:And then there was the second part
of the design, which fortunately
855
:didn't ever get built out due to
just platform constraints, but I
856
:had really wanted it to be online.
857
:So that you could have a little
town of my sims, who were the ones
858
:that you had chosen to support.
859
:Like, let's say you really
liked the gothy ones, and um,
860
:you really liked the foodies.
861
:That was another set of characters
you could get in your town.
862
:Um, you could keep, uh, like a sportos
sim that was really into athletics,
863
:and then just send them to your
friend's town to hang out with the
864
:other sportos, and then they'd come
back and they'd bring cool presents.
865
:So that the idea, sort of, which is very
typical for me now that I look back on
866
:my career, was that your town could be
Special for you in the sense that like
867
:you would put together the characters and
the little play sets that you liked But
868
:it could also be inclusive of somebody
that was just kind of different And
869
:still celebrate their difference in a
way that didn't compromise your vision
870
:for what the town should look like.
871
:And I really, really like that idea
now that I, now that I've gotten
872
:some, some distance from the game.
873
:It's been a long time since it was built.
874
:You know, even though that feature never
got implemented because the Wii didn't
875
:ship with an online capacity right away.
876
:Um, I still, I still think that this idea
of giving things away, um, to, to build
877
:a diverse community and then letting
people come and go as they please as
878
:a way of getting sort of revitalized
and, and rejuvenated and bringing their
879
:creativity back to the, to the center is,
those are just really interesting ideas.
880
:And I, I always think like, I'd love
to do another game like that where the
881
:online really was a strong component
and you could, you could kind of care
882
:for a little group of creatures or
people or whatever, and still have them.
883
:not need to all be the
same in order to get along.
884
:In fact, actually, if you think
about it, Watan, which is one of
885
:the games that we're making here at
Phenomena, is a little bit like that.
886
:I think a lot of Keita's vision is
similar in that it's about a lot of
887
:different people, little people that are
all different, but they all get along.
888
:to create, ultimately to
create a shared common goal.
889
:And so, you know, those kinds
of ideas, you can work them
890
:into a very big franchise.
891
:You can even sort of do a franchise split
and still have it remain core, like the
892
:Sims games are still Sims games, but you
can kind of look at the core loop and
893
:then just make an adjustment for feeling.
894
:And like, in my case, this was
an adjustment to make the game
895
:feel more focused on community.
896
:And building community.
897
:Um, I think that that's
actually a really fun exercise.
898
:And I often tell young designers
who are like, Oh, I really want
899
:to make my own game, but I have
to go get a, like, a regular job
900
:working on someone else's game.
901
:I always tell them that when I first
started, that was one of the best things
902
:that I did in my career, was working
on a game that someone else had already
903
:designed, just learning how games work.
904
:Seeing how the sausage gets made,
you know, and like, and like getting
905
:good at meeting my commitments
and like managing my time.
906
:Like those were so much more important
than my gigantic game ideas at the time.
907
:Um, and I think it's something that we
overlook, especially early in our careers.
908
:I just had a similar conversation with
someone who was, who was out of school
909
:and wanted to, to connect with me.
910
:And it's like, hey, in two, three,
four years, you can, you can still
911
:revisit those ideas, that company.
912
:Uh, and you'll be so much better equipped.
913
:Oh, totally.
914
:Yeah, there's so many little things that
you don't learn in school, you know?
915
:Um, it's im it's so important to be
able to communicate with integrity
916
:and honesty and to let go of your own
failures and other people's failures,
917
:not hold grudges against yourself or
other people on your team, not start
918
:fires, you know, all these things.
919
:And, you know, not to say that I
have, you know, Nailed any of those.
920
:I mean, I'm just as bad as anybody else
when it comes to being totally honest
921
:and confronting things when they present
themselves as opposed to putting it off.
922
:But, but those are the things that
you have to learn through practice.
923
:And it's like you can take a
class in it in school, but you
924
:can't really learn it in school.
925
:You have to learn it on the ground
and being able to do your job
926
:really well while learning that,
I think is really important.
927
:Well, I actually wanted to ask you a
little bit about that because, you know,
928
:with everything you do, the teaching,
running the company, designing and all
929
:the, community work you do, you must
be some sort of productivity guru.
930
:And I'm just curious, uh,
how you manage all that.
931
:Well, you know, it's funny.
932
:I'm actually teaching a class right
now about, um, it's called game design
933
:experience, and it goes with a, uh,
uh, game programming experience class.
934
:It's two classes that are
taught at the same time.
935
:And so they have class on Monday,
Wednesday, Friday with my friend Nathan.
936
:And then they have class on
Tuesday, Thursday with me.
937
:And it's all the sophomores in the,
the bachelor's programs that we
938
:have at And so they're just getting
ready to go from doing solo games
939
:projects into a group game project.
940
:And at the beginning of class,
um, every time we have class, I
941
:have them all sit still and then
I say, Okay, how are we doing?
942
:And we all say together, I'm doing the
best that I can because that's really,
943
:you just have to assume that everyone
is doing the best that they can.
944
:I think for a long time, because I'm
someone who loves lots of things and
945
:I love to give back and I love to be
social and I love to sort of like learn
946
:and also to teach and to travel and all
and do all these things, make stuff.
947
:I definitely always felt like, Oh my gosh,
there's a million things I want to do.
948
:I'm going to run out of time,
never going to have enough time.
949
:I'm always rushing, rushing, rushing.
950
:But as I've gotten older, I've actually
learned that the most important
951
:thing is just taking the time.
952
:To focus on the goal and to
think what, what am I doing?
953
:And then to do that as best as you can.
954
:And so I make them use a tool which
I just started using last year, um,
955
:on the advice of one of my, my older
mentors, Bob, uh, Bob Bates, who's an
956
:old, uh, game designer, uh, it's like a
very, very classic, uh, you know, text
957
:based adventure game designer, who's
like really kept up with the industry
958
:and written some really great books.
959
:And it's.
960
:She's still, I think, one of,
one of the, one of the more
961
:influential people in my career.
962
:Um, him and, and Noah Falstein, both.
963
:And Bob was saying like,
this book is so great.
964
:And the book is called
The Productivity Planner.
965
:And it's, you can buy it on Amazon.
966
:It's like 25 bucks.
967
:It's black and it, I get the one
with, uh, it's undated so you
968
:can put your own dates in it.
969
:And it's a process.
970
:By which every week you write down
the top five things that need to
971
:get done that week, and then the
next five, and the next five.
972
:And I kind of think of those
as being urgent and important,
973
:uh, urgent and important.
974
:So really like stuff that's like kind of
crisis mode or needs to get done really
975
:quickly, it just popped up out of nowhere.
976
:Then the stuff that is like you need to
do it because if you don't do it in the
977
:long run it's going to be a real pain.
978
:And then the stuff that like you
really think is important to do
979
:in your life and you want to plan.
980
:So like yeah.
981
:You bucket those things out for each
week and then on every day, you sit
982
:down in the morning and you write down
the number one thing that you want
983
:to get done that day and you don't do
anything else until you get it done.
984
:And the process is very helpful for me.
985
:It really helps me each week think about,
okay, where am I totally in terms of like
986
:All of the things that I'm managing, which
of them are kind of boiling up to the
987
:top, which one are generating tasks that
need to be planned, and which ones are
988
:like things that really need to sort of,
you know, get into the flow of motion so
989
:that they can move forward, unblock people
and make other opportunities available.
990
:And I use that pretty religiously.
991
:It's very, very helpful for me.
992
:I've also gone through periods of really
scheduling in my life out in like a
993
:Google spreadsheet where I kind of
maintain those buckets more manually.
994
:and more granularly, like,
granularly over the course of a day.
995
:But, um, I find that when I'm doing
it with the Google spreadsheet, I
996
:get a little bit fussy, and kind of
like, picky, and because you can type
997
:really quickly, you kind of jam stuff
in there without really thinking about
998
:it, whereas having to write it longhand
in the notebook forces me, and there's
999
:limited space, and I don't like to have
scratches in there, and like, things
:
00:52:03,635 --> 00:52:05,175
written out, and then crossed off.
:
00:52:05,175 --> 00:52:07,445
So, I really kind of try
to really be patient.
:
00:52:07,655 --> 00:52:11,435
Particular about what I write down and
then at the end of the week, there's
:
00:52:11,445 --> 00:52:14,165
process by which you evaluate all
the things that you were supposed to
:
00:52:14,165 --> 00:52:15,945
do and you look at your throughput.
:
00:52:15,955 --> 00:52:21,075
So for every task, it says, how many
pomodoros, which is a 25 minute segment
:
00:52:21,075 --> 00:52:23,315
of time did I spend on this task?
:
00:52:23,315 --> 00:52:27,415
And so pomodoros kind of allow you to plan
for 25 minutes of work and then a bathroom
:
00:52:27,415 --> 00:52:29,035
or a water break or a stretch break.
:
00:52:29,545 --> 00:52:32,705
And it's a very healthy way also
to sort of portion out your time.
:
00:52:32,705 --> 00:52:36,275
So when I was younger, especially
when I was programming in grad
:
00:52:36,275 --> 00:52:37,285
school, I would sometimes just.
:
00:52:37,475 --> 00:52:42,665
Stay at home in my pajamas for a week,
you know, drinking coffee and not sleeping
:
00:52:42,665 --> 00:52:46,265
and programming and just being totally
obsessed with making something work.
:
00:52:46,265 --> 00:52:46,605
Right.
:
00:52:46,665 --> 00:52:51,165
Um, and as I've gotten older and really
learned what my strengths are, um,
:
00:52:51,165 --> 00:52:55,405
and what rejuvenates me, I found that
it's really bad for me actually to be.
:
00:52:55,705 --> 00:53:01,015
Locked away for days at a time just
to answer an email or just drawing or
:
00:53:01,035 --> 00:53:05,655
just programming or just, you know,
you know, making plans and schedules.
:
00:53:05,665 --> 00:53:07,835
Like if I, if I really do
that, I get a lot done.
:
00:53:07,835 --> 00:53:12,285
But by the end of it, I feel
really, um, Inhuman burned out.
:
00:53:12,585 --> 00:53:12,845
Yeah.
:
00:53:12,845 --> 00:53:13,985
Just, just, just, yeah.
:
00:53:13,985 --> 00:53:14,665
Just like, yeah.
:
00:53:14,735 --> 00:53:17,255
Crusty and fried and like not happy.
:
00:53:17,445 --> 00:53:22,935
And you know, one of the core things about
phenomena when we started the company was
:
00:53:22,935 --> 00:53:25,205
that Martin and I really wanted to build.
:
00:53:25,775 --> 00:53:31,265
A deliberately developmental organization
that allowed all of us to get to the
:
00:53:31,265 --> 00:53:35,115
place where we could plan our days,
not just based on what needed to
:
00:53:35,125 --> 00:53:38,185
be done, but on what was important
to us and what our values were.
:
00:53:38,205 --> 00:53:40,205
And I think it is really hard.
:
00:53:40,205 --> 00:53:40,705
I'm not going to lie.
:
00:53:40,705 --> 00:53:43,435
It's really hard to run a commercial
business that way because.
:
00:53:43,570 --> 00:53:47,660
So many other businesses that you're
interacting with are not run that way.
:
00:53:47,830 --> 00:53:53,030
Like you'll get email from a publisher,
you know, midnight on a Sunday and you
:
00:53:53,030 --> 00:53:55,680
know, get in, in the morning and think,
Oh my God, I didn't ask that email.
:
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:59,810
It's like, well, of course you didn't,
you were asleep, but you know, when you,
:
00:53:59,810 --> 00:54:01,959
when you encounter other work cultures.
:
00:54:02,270 --> 00:54:06,480
that are toxic and that don't
actually deal with goal setting and
:
00:54:06,850 --> 00:54:11,660
specific measurable throughput kind
of analysis towards those goals,
:
00:54:11,870 --> 00:54:15,010
then it's very difficult to maintain
your own process in the face of that.
:
00:54:15,010 --> 00:54:19,330
But if you do it yourself personally,
it's easier to lead by example and to show
:
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:23,610
others that it does work and that you can
have effectively a really fulfilling life
:
00:54:23,690 --> 00:54:26,930
where you do the things that are important
to you because they're important to you
:
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:31,100
and you let go of the things That maybe
you might assume you need to do that.
:
00:54:31,100 --> 00:54:34,450
You don't like, I don't really spend
a lot of time watching television.
:
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:35,910
I don't watch television.
:
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:37,470
I've never seen game of Thrones.
:
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,390
Like I don't, I don't watch TV.
:
00:54:41,470 --> 00:54:42,970
I haven't, I'm sure it's great.
:
00:54:42,980 --> 00:54:45,720
And I'll binge watch it at some
point when I have shipped my game
:
00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:47,930
and like, and have a whole summer
to lay around and do nothing.
:
00:54:47,930 --> 00:54:50,600
But, um, but I also don't really miss it.
:
00:54:50,740 --> 00:54:53,700
Because I read obsessively, I read tons.
:
00:54:53,700 --> 00:54:56,240
I, I bought like 30 books
off of Amazon this weekend.
:
00:54:56,250 --> 00:54:58,650
I, I, I buy used books like crazy.
:
00:54:58,910 --> 00:54:59,940
I have a huge library.
:
00:54:59,940 --> 00:55:01,200
I have a library here at the office.
:
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,530
I have a library at my house
in Santa, in Santa Cruz.
:
00:55:03,530 --> 00:55:05,600
And I have a library in
my house in San Francisco.
:
00:55:05,620 --> 00:55:07,530
Cause I have two little
apartments that I rent.
:
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:08,930
I just fill them with books.
:
00:55:08,940 --> 00:55:12,010
Like I love reading and I
can read on my own time.
:
00:55:12,260 --> 00:55:15,590
And I can read across a variety of
subjects, and then I can create little
:
00:55:15,590 --> 00:55:20,180
maps between the subject matter in a
way that is just so pleasing to me,
:
00:55:20,490 --> 00:55:23,630
whereas with watching television, or
like, YouTubes and stuff like that,
:
00:55:23,890 --> 00:55:27,690
I just can't get that experience,
like, I'm really about ingesting
:
00:55:27,690 --> 00:55:29,000
information through books, so.
:
00:55:29,220 --> 00:55:30,370
You're about depth, Robin.
:
00:55:30,540 --> 00:55:33,090
Yeah, I'm, I'm all about
like connecting things.
:
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,050
And like for me, the experience of
watching television is an experience
:
00:55:36,050 --> 00:55:38,760
of shutting off and just absorbing
what someone else is showing me.
:
00:55:39,010 --> 00:55:40,000
It's like watching a movie.
:
00:55:40,150 --> 00:55:44,315
I love to do it, but I don't do it that
often because I would much rather Be
:
00:55:44,315 --> 00:55:49,055
spending my time learning and being
creative with what I learn and kind
:
00:55:49,055 --> 00:55:50,665
of connecting that to other people.
:
00:55:50,885 --> 00:55:54,675
I just recently did a, um,
a survey online called Viya.
:
00:55:54,675 --> 00:55:58,575
It's the Viya character
analysis, like creativity survey.
:
00:55:58,655 --> 00:56:00,345
And you fill out a bunch of questions.
:
00:56:00,345 --> 00:56:02,375
It's like anything, you know,
like a Myers Briggs or whatever.
:
00:56:02,815 --> 00:56:07,970
But, um, you know, it tells you kind
of what your, What your values are,
:
00:56:07,970 --> 00:56:09,830
like what your top strengths are.
:
00:56:10,030 --> 00:56:14,150
And when you do the self analysis, um,
it's interesting, but then you can also,
:
00:56:14,180 --> 00:56:18,150
if you want to, you can have other people
do it for you, which is also interesting.
:
00:56:18,170 --> 00:56:23,010
Um, and my top strengths for my own
analysis were creativity, kindness,
:
00:56:23,190 --> 00:56:27,040
love of learning, curiosity, and
appreciation of beauty and excellence.
:
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,500
I'm like, when I look at that
list, I think, yes, that's exactly
:
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:32,010
That's exactly what I value.
:
00:56:32,250 --> 00:56:35,350
That's like what I want to put
in front of myself every day.
:
00:56:35,550 --> 00:56:38,280
Like, I don't really spend a lot of
time reading Twitter because it's mostly
:
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,950
negative and it's people complaining
or it's distracting and silly.
:
00:56:41,980 --> 00:56:44,970
And like all of the Twitter
feeds that I follow are artists
:
00:56:45,100 --> 00:56:47,820
or people that talk about art or
people that talk about science.
:
00:56:47,860 --> 00:56:51,130
So there's the love of learning and
the appreciation of being excellence.
:
00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:53,090
And occasionally I follow podcasts.
:
00:56:54,220 --> 00:56:58,410
Because I'm interested in learning and,
and I'm curious about weird subjects.
:
00:56:58,490 --> 00:57:01,840
Um, it's not that I'm not active and that
I don't have opinions about how we should
:
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:05,560
treat one another and how much kindness
is required to make the world a more
:
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:10,410
peaceful and loving place, but I just
don't immerse myself in knowing about it.
:
00:57:11,615 --> 00:57:16,895
Because I know that it's there and my best
effort is to resist through my creativity
:
00:57:16,895 --> 00:57:18,415
and my kindness and my love of learning.
:
00:57:18,415 --> 00:57:18,665
Right?
:
00:57:18,915 --> 00:57:22,755
So I really encourage everybody
who wants to be productive and do
:
00:57:22,755 --> 00:57:25,975
a lot to sort of sit down and ask
themselves, what are their goals?
:
00:57:26,060 --> 00:57:27,050
And what are their values?
:
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:30,990
And then to just always be asking
yourself, like, this week, like, what can
:
00:57:30,990 --> 00:57:32,930
I do to get myself closer to those values?
:
00:57:32,950 --> 00:57:38,370
How can I drive my game design or this job
that I have to do right now or, you know,
:
00:57:38,370 --> 00:57:42,320
this relationship that I'm in towards
the things that are about my values?
:
00:57:42,635 --> 00:57:46,365
If everybody did that, and everybody
was kind to children, the world
:
00:57:46,365 --> 00:57:47,415
would be a much better place.
:
00:57:47,515 --> 00:57:49,505
Well, I think that says it all, Robin.
:
00:57:49,515 --> 00:57:54,045
We're gonna, we're gonna put, we're
gonna put links to the, uh, Productivity
:
00:57:54,055 --> 00:58:00,445
Planner, and to the VIA StrengthsFinder,
uh, on, on the blog post, and also,
:
00:58:00,475 --> 00:58:05,615
um, you know, we'll, we'll put links to
Phenomena, and, um, Any anything else
:
00:58:05,625 --> 00:58:09,285
where we you know, people can find and
connect with you It was great having
:
00:58:09,285 --> 00:58:13,335
you and talking to you and learning
from you and being inspired by you Thank
:
00:58:13,335 --> 00:58:15,035
you very much for coming on the show.
:
00:58:15,245 --> 00:58:16,185
Thank you so much for having me.
:
00:58:16,185 --> 00:58:19,165
It was really great to talk
to you So there you go.
:
00:58:19,175 --> 00:58:20,245
That was robin haneke.
:
00:58:20,275 --> 00:58:23,635
I had a great time having her on the show.
:
00:58:23,665 --> 00:58:24,505
I learned a lot.
:
00:58:24,515 --> 00:58:31,645
I was inspired I really appreciate it
Her artistic approach, her emotions first
:
00:58:31,645 --> 00:58:34,715
approach, and her empathy first approach.
:
00:58:35,145 --> 00:58:38,495
So, all those pieces meant something
to me and were something that
:
00:58:38,495 --> 00:58:42,845
I took away in terms of how I'm
going to approach some of my work.
:
00:58:43,330 --> 00:58:46,430
And, uh, and I hope that you will as well.
:
00:58:46,710 --> 00:58:49,980
And if you are getting something out
of these interviews, if you're finding
:
00:58:49,980 --> 00:58:53,440
them useful, if you're finding them
inspirational, if they're impacting
:
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:57,470
the work that you're doing, I would
love to hear about it, either shooting
:
00:58:57,470 --> 00:58:59,150
me an email, Jordan at bright, black.
:
00:58:59,890 --> 00:59:01,810
co no M or.
:
00:59:02,105 --> 00:59:07,135
If you would write a review on iTunes
and you can do that obviously just by
:
00:59:07,155 --> 00:59:12,265
heading to iTunes and doing it the usual
way or if you head to playmakerspodcast.
:
00:59:13,295 --> 00:59:16,135
com, you'll find links there to do it.
:
00:59:16,375 --> 00:59:20,915
You'll also find links to everything
that came up in the talk with Robin.
:
00:59:20,915 --> 00:59:24,955
So all the game designers, all the
games, the productivity planner
:
00:59:24,955 --> 00:59:28,725
that she mentioned, all that
stuff is linked to right there.
:
00:59:28,725 --> 00:59:29,645
And you can also.
:
00:59:29,845 --> 00:59:33,585
Find out how to get in touch with Robin
because we linked to her Twitter and
:
00:59:33,595 --> 00:59:38,175
also to Phenomena, the company page
where you can see what they're up to.
:
00:59:38,175 --> 00:59:42,155
And the art for their games is fantastic.
:
00:59:42,375 --> 00:59:43,725
So take a look.
:
00:59:43,755 --> 00:59:44,985
I think you'll dig it.
:
00:59:45,655 --> 00:59:49,025
Don't forget to sign up for the
Playmakers Insiders newsletter.
:
00:59:49,025 --> 00:59:50,695
You can also do that at playmakerspodcast.
:
00:59:51,595 --> 00:59:52,075
com.
:
00:59:52,365 --> 00:59:54,845
You'll get weekly updates
about upcoming guests.
:
00:59:55,330 --> 00:59:57,660
And some bonus information as well.
:
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:03,180
In the last episode that I put out, or
in the last letter that I put out, I was
:
01:00:03,180 --> 01:00:07,930
recommending a very cool newsletter that
I've discovered called Indie Weekly.
:
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:09,580
You can find it at IndieWeekly.
:
01:00:11,030 --> 01:00:15,620
co, again, no M, and, uh, it's
a really cool newsletter where
:
01:00:15,620 --> 01:00:19,570
you can get like a quick weekly
update with game industry news.
:
01:00:19,830 --> 01:00:23,310
They talk about some of
the notable releases.
:
01:00:23,755 --> 01:00:27,265
They talk about funding a little
bit, and they keep you up with
:
01:00:27,285 --> 01:00:28,545
big picture stories as well.
:
01:00:28,545 --> 01:00:33,465
The last, uh, newsletter that I got
talked about how Battles on Net is
:
01:00:33,465 --> 01:00:37,695
having their first non Blizzard game,
uh, come to it for distribution.
:
01:00:37,695 --> 01:00:40,845
So that's a new, a new thing, where
Bungie is gonna have Deathmatch.
:
01:00:42,165 --> 01:00:43,765
So that's, that's kind of crazy.
:
01:00:43,795 --> 01:00:45,695
So anyway, IndieWeekly.
:
01:00:45,695 --> 01:00:47,315
co is a, is a cool newsletter.
:
01:00:47,315 --> 01:00:51,415
You might want to check it out and
PlayMakers Insiders is pretty cool too.
:
01:00:51,425 --> 01:00:52,955
You can check that out
at PlayMakersPodcast.
:
01:00:54,275 --> 01:00:54,675
com.
:
01:00:55,015 --> 01:00:58,565
That's all I've got for
this episode of Plymachus.
:
01:00:59,195 --> 01:01:00,435
I swear that joke's going to get old.
:
01:01:00,535 --> 01:01:01,605
That is going to get old.
:
01:01:03,530 --> 01:01:04,680
All right, I'll see you
in the next episode.