Struggling to get leads for your law firm? Feeling like you're just willing the phone to ring? Attorney Mike Chastaine has been there too. After 17 years in the public defender's office, Mike went out on his own, only to find that being a great lawyer wasn't enough. 

Tune in to Your Practice Mastered podcast as Richard James and MPS talk to Atty. Mike about his journey from sitting in his office just hoping for calls, to building a thriving firm, selling it, and now living his dream retired life in New Mexico. You'll hear Atty. Mike's vital lessons on tracking data, staying disciplined, and taking control of your practice. If you want to stop wishing and start mastering your law firm, don't miss this inspiring episode with Attorney Mike Chastaine!

What did you do then?

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Actually, it was fairly similar. I had a very clear morning regimen. I mean, I read the book the 5 am Club by Robin Sherman. Now I'm not a big fan of getting up at 5 am, trust but I did like the idea of, you know, 20 minutes of meditating, 20 minutes of some sort of exercise, 20 minutes of, you know, journaling or reading.

I knew the meetings that I had to do. And then I would figure out where to put the other pieces. So that I could get everything done and be done at a reasonable time, six o'clock, five o'clock in the afternoon. Because there was tomorrow. You know, so it was really focused on what you know, the Eisenhower box, right?

The important but not urgent stuff. I tried to keep my efforts there as much as possible to avoid having to become urgent. So, and then the other thing that became really big for me is the willingness to say no, the willingness to say, I'm not going to take this client. I'm not going to do that task.

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MPS: Hey, law firm owners. Welcome to the Your Practice Mastered Podcast. We're your host. I'm MPS.

Richard James: And I'm Richard James and Michael, I gotta tell you, I'm so excited about today's conversation. Not only are we going to get great nuggets and some great storylines, but I get to talk to somebody that I actually consider a friend, both him and his wife, Mike Chastain and his wife, Elisa. And they came into our world at one point and now they've transitioned out of our world.

Sold their practice and live in the life of their dreams. And I'm just, I'm so proud of them. It sounds crazy, but I am, I'm proud of them. And I'm just excited to have this conversation. So Mike, thanks for being on today.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Oh, it's a real pleasure. It's really nice to see you again, Rich. It's been a minute.

Richard James: It's been a minute. It has. Are you still skiing?

Richard James: Nice. Awesome. Michael, you don't like skiing very much, do you?

MPS: Every time I've tried to ski or snowboard, it's resulted in an injury or anger. So I, you know, I have just come to learn that's probably not my thing.

Richard James: Mike, Michael, MPS he was the guy that you used to have to take down on the sled.

MPS: Yeah, right.

Richard James: And that's not an exaggeration.

MPS: Literally that did happen. And yeah, quite, quite the story.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Well, hopefully it was a good ride anyway.

MPS: Yeah, for sure. It got a nice breeze going down the mountain, you know. So Mike, to kind of kick things off a little bit, obviously we like to get the audience to know you a little bit more. What's something that maybe not everybody knows about you?

But I think the one thing that maybe a lot of people don't know is I do a lot of writing. I mean, I've written six books now and I've got a book that is about to go to the editor. So, you know, that's been a real interesting part of my life is just writing. So I really enjoy that.

Richard James: Yeah, your wife actually writes too, right? So she's a published author with her first novel. You said she's working on her second one right now.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Yeah, she found a great woman to do some editing with her. She actually worked with the curator for George R. R. Martin's books to go over her storyline and help her with that. So she's really found some people to help her out. We're real excited about this second book.

Now in your writing, have you been writing mostly for the law firm now or has you been writing for other things as well?

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Mostly for the law firm. I wrote legally is the ultimate guide on how to survive a law practice. And it occurred to me that I set the bar way too low. Survival is not the end game. So the new one is how to achieve mastery in a practice from you know, really focusing on the long game.

You know, recognizing that, You know, it takes 30 years to be truly to be a master at the craft of practicing law. So, you know, I work with a lot of young or lawyers who kind of think they got out of law school and the work's all done. And I'm like, Oh no, you have just started. So, that's really what it's about.

MPS: Yeah you're spot on. I mean, it's there, it's coming. And so it's going to be very interesting to see what that does in the legal world. Now you've had the opportunity to actually sell a firm, which is pretty awesome. But I'm curious. As far as the broad strokes go, you've had an entrepreneurial journey as a law firm owner.

Why don't you tell them a little bit about that journey? Some of the high notes, maybe some of the low notes, just a little bit more.

I've been a criminal defense attorney my entire career. And I just thought that was enough. I just thought people would know. But that's not the case. So, I struggled for a number of years you know, doing good legal work, but struggling on the business side because I didn't have anyone showing me what to do.

And what I found is that pretty much everybody I knew was in the same boat. They didn't know what they were doing either. And that's when I ran across Richard and got involved in the Partners Club and then, you know, we went from trying to figure out where the rent was going to come from to doing better than seven figures a year.

And and so now I'm of counsel to the firm. So I still help him on the business side. I still, you know, assist on the, you know, with advice on the cases themselves, how to handle them, what to do in trial, all of those kinds of things. But you know, I'm slowly stepping away from the practice and should be you know, we'll see how it all works out.

He bought it over time. So, I'll be out technically in another three years, I guess. And then we'll decide whether I stay involved or not.

Richard James: So, you're being, by the way, thank you for that, but you're being a little modest because I remember your journey and you, if I'm not mistaken, you were an EAY finalist two years in a row. Is that right? Or is it three years?

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Two years, two years. Yeah.

And so I want to give you kudos for taking your firm from where you were to where you are, because when you first started. Forgive me, Ron. I'm trying to set the stage for somebody else who's going through the same thing. I think you're, if I remember correctly, you told me it was like 2am. You're wondering, you're out there searching social media, you know, just blindly rolling through and you run across, I think, one of our ads for a book or something like that.

But you were at that point really wondering what the heck you were going to do next about your practice. Is that fair? Is that a correct statement?

Atty. Mike Chastaine: that's absolutely correct. You know, I was literally sitting in my office. It was probably seven or eight o'clock at night, staring at the phone, just trying to will it to ring because I had no system set up and the funny part is it wasn't your ad that I came across. It was a competitor of yours.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: I got his book and his first name was Richard as well. And I couldn't remember his last name. So I Googled Richard attorney mentor or something like this and you popped up. And so, the best.

Richard James: Goodness SEO.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Yeah, the best mistake that ever could have happened. But yeah, it was a real struggle. Because as I said, I had this illusion that I was really good.

I mean, I was, you know, on the best lawyers of America list and super lawyers and all of those accolades that you get, but the public doesn't know. They don't care. And if you don't market in any real way, you know, it doesn't translate into income. And that was the struggle.

I could prove that I was the best and everybody would want to come to us because we were the best. And I can remember sitting in my office and the phone's not ringing, literally looking at it, willing it to ring because payroll was right around the corner. I remember having dinner with my grandmother who lived across the hallway from me above the funeral home and because dinner was always ready at five o'clock and she could see that I was a little down and she would say to me, what's going on?

And I would tell her, she goes, well, you know, we've got a stack full of files of people who were prearranged. She goes, and I got your grandfather's rifle up in the attic. She goes, we could facilitate this process if you really need me to. That is actually a true story. Thank goodness grandma's not on this earth anymore to be prosecuted along those lines, God forbid. But she, that, you know, so I know what you felt like at that moment. Like, what do I gotta do besides being the best at what I am to make the phone ring, right? It was frustrating.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Well, and I think there was a time when that was true, you know, when there wasn't, you know, over a million lawyers around, especially in California, you know, they're just everywhere. So it was probably much more referral based, but that's not the reality today. And it hasn't been the reality for pretty much the entire, you know, since the early two thousands. So.

MPS: Yeah, and I...

Richard James: Michael, I'm sorry, go ahead with some of the some of your question.

So I just think it's a very common feeling, but Mike, I'm curious along the journey, cause you've obviously had a lot of high points and we just heard maybe a point where you were willing the phone to ring. But where would you say in that journey, you had a challenge point or a low point and you took something from it?

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Boy, you know, I think for me it was just kind of hitting the you know, what I considered rock bottom when I just couldn't take the idea of, you know, worrying about how to pay the rent every month, how to pay the mortgage. It was causing stress in my personal life. It was causing stress in the family.

And you know, I appreciate the kudos that you gave me Rich, but I just did what you told me to do. You know, if I was going to pay for it, I was going to do it. So.

Richard James: We, you and I have had this conversation off channel. Mike, there are a lot of people who pay us to tell for us to tell them what to do and they still don't do it. So, you know, that's a conundrum. I don't understand why anybody would, you know, not make the change if their firm's life depended on it, but sometimes it doesn't happen.

So while I appreciate that you, you had to take the action, but I am curious, and I think I'm going to pivot into Michael's next question, Michael. Okay. So you hit rock bottom to give them, so maybe they're sitting where you were then right now, that's where they are. They're listening to this, right.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: yeah. So the first thing that you advised me to do and I did is I got a bookkeeper. You know, I mean, prior to that, I was what I call a super solo. I did everything, including the bookkeeping. I did it poorly and I hated it. And it was sucking up about 10 hours a week. You know, if you actually measure the amount of time it's extraordinarily how long it took.

So I got a bookkeeper and she's still the bookkeeper of the firm today. I mean, she's been great. So she's been with us for gosh, 15 years and she's done a wonderful job. And so I took all that off the plate and I just set it up so that I could review everything. So, you know, I look at the P&L every day.

I look at the bank accounts every day. Just to know exactly where things are and to try to head off if there's going to be a problem. So that was a really big thing.

Well, now, as soon as we made that switch, I mean, I run into the bank and I'm like, I want to open seven bank accounts and the guy's looking at me like, what? You know, they said, well, you've read profit first, right? You're a banker. You should know this. Nope. Never heard of it. Well, that's what we're doing. We're opening up and you're not going to charge me, by the way. And they're like, okay. And so instantly you know, we started at 1%. By the time we got to the end, you know, we were at 7 percent of every dollar that came in, went immediately into a profit account and that adds up really quick when you're bringing in a significant revenue every year.

And I do think the one thing I should.

But if you flip the formula and you do gross revenues minus profit equals expenses It's amazing how that just small paradigm shift makes a massive difference in your financials. I mean, I find it to be and I did it before mike presented it But I never presented it that way and I just had my own renegade way of doing it And when he presented, it was like, light bulb went off.

I'm like, Oh my gosh, everybody's going to love this. If they just start doing it.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Yeah I always looked at it as, as it was expenses, less profit equals budget.

Richard James: Okay.

And so I sort of just worked my way down and and sure enough it, it made a huge difference. And the other thing is that when you open the accounts. You actually can see where you are. If you have a payroll account, you know, do I have money in there to cover this payroll? And, you know, we try to keep at least one payroll ahead.

Do I have money in that holding account? You know, we had a holding account that, you know, during COVID saved our rears. Because we didn't have to go into debt, even though our income dropped significantly for a couple of quarters because the courts closed. So nobody was hiring, and we actually wound up having to shut down our DUI practice because all the bars and the restaurants were closed.

Richard James: Right. Yeah. If that's your business to help people that drink and drive, it's bad news.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Yeah. I remember Blaine used to talk about, well, what are you going to do if, you know, when self driving cars come around and that always kind of stuck in my mind and I was like, yeah that's quite kind of way off, but this was essentially the same effect. So we had to adjust the entire firm.

And what we did is we just niched even further into other practice areas. And You know, it worked really well. So.

Richard James: Michael, MPS. There are so many lessons just in that one statement, right? I mean, Oh my goodness.

MPS: Just knowing, again we say this all the time, but just knowing the numbers the fact that he said this multiple times read the P&L every single day, knew where he stood, you know, knew where expenses were at, knew what was in the bank had the holding accounts to have visibility, to know what numbers were in which accounts.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Oh, absolutely. You know, we're very much even still, you know, a data driven firm where decisions are made based on realistic projections based on, you know, what's going on. We know our PCLC, we know what, where the clients are coming from. We know what we can expect to bring in a particular month.

We know the value of every case that comes through. Yeah and that really helps make decisions. It's been one of the challenges since selling the firm of, you know, getting that information to the new owner. Because he occasionally will want to work on, he works on fear a little bit and I got to push him away from that.

And as soon as he hired the new lawyer that they have now, man, everything went right back to where it was supposed to be. And that's been great for him. It's great for me. And and it's great for the firm.

Richard James: So I want to speak to the person listening real quick because I want to acknowledge something. So what I want to acknowledge is that what I love and Michael and I've talked about this privately that when we work with attorneys, the great news is, is that by the nature of who they are, they had to have a reasonable amount of intelligence, right?

Like, Where should they start? Like, what's the first thing they should start measuring? Or my, besides the P&L and the profit we talked about, like, if they're going to try to measure all of this, like, how did you start? Did you start with pen and paper? Did you start with an Excel spreadsheet? Did you get right into a CRM right away?

Like, how did you and Elisa get this thing started?

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Yeah. So we started with just a spreadsheet and we began tracking every lead that came in whether they were set an appointment, well, whether they were qualified that has actually become a much bigger issue today than it was a few years ago. But whether they were qualified and for us, qualified was just simply did they have a problem we do in a jurisdiction we do it?

So, as an example, A number of years ago our leads were great. Our qualifies were great. Our higher sets were great. Our shows were great, but our hire rate really dropped, and I began to, you know, after, you know, kind of stopping around a little bit, trying to figure it out.

What I realized is I had gotten off script and I was just kind of free forming it and as soon as I realized that I was like, okay, that's a simple fix. I went back on script and the numbers went right back to where they were. Instead of like spending a bunch of time and effort on, you know, spending more money on marketing or spending more money, or yelling at the staff for not setting enough appointments or whatever.

No, we gotta go back and retrain. And and we have very good staff. So it's really a lot of times just pointing it out. Hey, those numbers are dropping. Let's get back on script.

Richard James: I mean, it's not about whether they're good or not. It's, you said it yourself, you're the best one in the firm. Like you care about it probably more than anybody else. And you fell off script, right? If we don't constantly monitor as of Michael, this happens all the time in your world. You've got great salespeople that you train on a regular basis, but if they fall away. If they go off to the dark side for a while and think they don't need this, they might go 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. And before you know it, they're coming back going, Hey, my close rate fell, whatever. And you do one measurement with them. And what do you find?

Richard James: It's funny. And one more story. Why not? So my son, younger son, Michael's brother, Justin is decided to come and stay with mom and dad because he wants to save up a bunch of cash because he wants to go move to New York City again. Okay, great. Cool. We're happy. He's 23. Mom's loves having, you know, the Son home again for a little while.

I'm okay with it. Anyway. So, he's out knocking on doors selling solar panels because he had this gig in Arizona. They had an office here. So he's out knocking on doors, selling solar panels and he recognized his set rate was off a bit. He's knocking on a hundred doors a day. Really tough gig.

And his set rate was off and I go, so last night I'm sitting with him and talking with him and he goes, well, yeah, the last two, they were really solid, but they just wouldn't get me the bill and I go. I thought we agreed we were going to set the appointment before you got the bill. And he goes, yeah, he goes, I just kind of decided to change it up.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Right.

Richard James: And so, it doesn't matter what industry you're in. If you're in an appointment setting or a sales model. You finding the formula that works and use it over and over and over again. And if it does, if it stops working, it's probably because we changed the formula.

They're stopped using the same formula. Typically, that's the reason. So, you know, it's universal. It happens to all of us, me included. And so it's, I think that's such great advice Mike.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: What I teach our firm is that everything's a bell curve, right? As long as you're training, it goes up the minute you stop training or you take your eye off the ball, it starts going down the other side. You got to build it back up. So, and that's just the natural progression of things.

So it's. You know, you don't beat yourself up over it, you just get back on the horse.

Richard James: just go do it again. That's correct.

Some daily success habits.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Well, so I, you know, I have what I call my sacred seven things that I do every day. I meditate every day. I do yoga pretty much every day. I write in my journal. I play music. One of the several instruments that I play. I try to exercise every day. So, you know, that's kind of the, that's where I start.

I have a few appointments maybe a couple of week not a ton. But it's really just taking care of myself, you know, mentally, physically, spiritually, I'm kind of at that point in my life. I'm doing a lot of artwork out on the property. I do a lot of sculptures. You know, carving wood and doing stone stuff.

I carry a knife everywhere. Everybody that I know around here carries a knife because it's such a useful tool, right? But for my entire legal career, I couldn't because I had to go through a metal detector Five days a week, right? So if you left it in your bag or whatever, you know, everybody'd lose their mind.

So it's just been kind of an interesting thing. I was like, yeah, I carry a knife. Can you believe it? I haven't been through a metal detector. I don't know, since March, I guess last time I was actually in the courtroom.

Richard James: That's great. I do have a, so let's bring you back. So there's this the attorneys are listening, going, well, that's fine for you, Mike, you sold your practice. You're living the life now. What about me? Like, what did, so what did you do when you were in the thick of it? What was your discipline habits that you did in the thick of it to keep your mind right, to keep you disciplined, to keep you focused?

What did you do then?

And I was pretty consistent with that. You know, that was kind of just taking care of my person. And then I had a pretty clear idea of what my week, so I would plan my weeks out in advance and then I would. You know, I knew the big appointments. I knew the court appearances that I had to do.

I knew the meetings that I had to do. And then I would figure out where to put the other pieces. So that I could get everything done and be done at a reasonable time, six o'clock, five o'clock in the afternoon. Because there was tomorrow. You know, so it was really focused on what you know, the Eisenhower box, right?

I'm not going to join that club. I'm not going to, you know, to really control my time. So that the folks that actually hired me and that I accepted because when I do intakes, my attitude is, yeah, you've got to decide whether you want to hire me, but I got to decide whether or not I'm willing to gift you my time.

Richard James: That's a great answer.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Yeah I'm, well, you know, and it takes a while when you're, you know, I'm 63, I'm not that old, but I got more days behind me than in front of me. So I'm much more stingy with who am I giving my time to. And I've had that attitude for a number of years.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: You know, knock on wood, but.

MPS: Yeah.

Richard James: I'm speaking of AI, I listened to an AI interview with a couple of different people through The Ed Mylett Show. And one of them actually believes AI is going to help us live till 130, 140. And I'm like, man, that's tough to even think about.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Take care of your body though, you know,

Richard James: Yeah, gotta take of

MPS: yourself.

Right. That's the key. Got to take care of your body. Mike, what's got you fired up today? What are you excited about? Could be personal, could be business.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Well, so, you know, on my counter, I'm meeting with a client this afternoon. Who's doing really well. He's trying to figure out a way to retire. I have a facial at 1:30. That's super fun. And then, I'll be playing some guitar. I'm taking a songwriting class at the community college.

Richard James: I hope somebody's soul just got filled up by hearing you talk about your passion project outside of the business and how you were able to get your business and use all these techniques to get to where you are. And now you can pick and choose the things that you're working on. And I hope somebody listening is going.

That's what I want. And they take advice and they take the first step and they just take one thing that you said and implement one thing that you said. Oh, that's so exciting. I'm so happy for you. I truly am. I'm truly ridiculously over the top happy for you. I mean, this is the joy of my work to watch the end result of this. So

And before we even knew that we were going to move to New Mexico and because we put energy in it, you know, as Blaine says, white table, you know, what to think about you bring about. And that's what we did. We just made it happen.

MPS: I love it. I love it. That's fantastic. Well, Mike, we appreciate everything you shared today. For giving everybody that glimpse of hope of what's possible. I think this was a great example of that. And we just want to thank you for taking the time to be on with us today.

Richard James: Hey, if they wanted to get ahold of you, Mike, how would you like them to do that?

Atty. Mike Chastaine: So the, there's two the one way you can go onto my website, Mike at or I'm sorry, MichaelChastaine.com. And it talks about some of the things that I do. Or you can just send me an email at Mike@Chastaine. . Those will both get to me and I'll respond. And if I can help out great.

MPS: Sweet.

Richard James: Well, Mike, I just want to say thank you for being on as Michael said, and tell Elisa I said, hello, give her a big hug for me. I miss you guys for sure. We don't see each other nearly enough. I need to obviously come to your ranch and carry a knife. That's what I need to do.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Absolutely. I'll put you to work.

Richard James: Put on the work and have a good time.

But, you know, again, congratulations to what you achieved and Michael what action do you want them to take if they like what they heard today?

MPS: Yeah. I mean, look to the law firm owners listening. If you guys enjoyed today's episode, you got that glimpse of hope. Go ahead and do me a favor. Make sure to hit that like button. And depending on the platform you're listening or watching on hit that subscribe button or that follow button, turn those notifications on.

Atty. Mike Chastaine: Great, thank you very much.