It’s me, Mark Stone, and in this episode of the Backseat Driver Podcast, I’m joined by Dr Beatty Crawford, a hugely experienced figure in rallying, to ask some serious questions about the direction of the modern sport and whether World Rally Championship cars have simply become too fast.

Drawing on a career that includes victory on the Circuit of Ireland and experience across some of rallying’s most demanding events, Beattie shares his concerns about the extraordinary performance of today’s WRC machinery and the potential consequences for both competitors and spectators. We discuss how modern cars compare with the infamous Group B era and whether increasing performance inevitably brings increasing risk.

But this conversation is about much more than outright speed. Beatty argues that the magic of rallying has always come from watching drivers wrestle cars across demanding terrain, where skill, movement and spectacle matter just as much as the numbers on a speedometer. We ask whether some of that character is being lost as technology becomes increasingly sophisticated.

We also discuss spectator safety, regulation, rising costs and the widening gap between the World Rally Championship and grassroots competition. Beatty shares his thoughts on the FIA’s approach to the sport and why he believes rallying needs to reconsider its priorities if it is to remain exciting, accessible and sustainable.

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I'd like to introduce to the backseat driver an old co driver who I've been wanting to get on the show for a long, long time and finally it's happened.

And the reason I'm inviting him on is his views on rallying tend to coincide with my views on rallying.

Then he bought his own 911 and had Stig Blompvist, Jimmy McRae, Sandro, Manori, Volta roll and Beyond Valdegoy driving it.

So he's certainly no slouch at all this.

And lo and behold, we have modern WIC cars that are faster and nobody is doing anything about it.

So without further ado, Beatty, Crawford, welcome to the backseat driver.

Thank you very much, Mark.

It's a pleasure to be having a chat with you.

Now, you and I, well, we spoke yesterday and the question is, how fast does a modern WRC car have to be and how long is it going to be before there are serious accidents?

Well, the actual speed isn't that important to make a rally car attractive to watch.

What people want to see with rally cars is a car moving around is getting the tail out.

You know, the Mark 2s competing in historic events, people flock to see them, but they're not very interested in the modern cars because the modern cars road so well.

So, I mean, the analogy is you can go to Indianapolis and the cars There are averaging 230 miles an hour.

It doesn't move.

So there's the opposite is you can watch the Tour de France bicycle race and they're only doing 30 miles an hour.

And some of the shots from above, they really look as if they're going really fast.

So the actual speed is not that important.

It's the way that the car behaves Going around bends.

Yeah, that's my philosophy about it.

And the second point is it's just a miracle that more people haven't been killed.

People, I mean, I've been knocked down at the northwest 200 by a racing motorbike.

Yeah.

Now, I thought I knew, you know my brother Essler.

Yeah.

Who's one, probably one of the best ever motorsport photographers.

He and I used to go to bike races.

Yeah.

And you know, I'd seen Esther knocked down and you know, he fortunately wasn't injured.

But I stood in what I thought was a safe place.

I mean, I had been photographing at motorbike races, car races for years and I didn't take chances.

So I stood in this place that I thought was safe and I thought to myself, if a bike, somebody comes off a bike and the bike comes towards me, I'll just step in behind this telegraph pole.

There's a big concrete old fashioned telegraph pole.

Yeah.

And it's a stab in behind it.

Well, the Morgan rider fell off at Henry's Corner.

S350 master came towards me.

I didn't move.

The reaction time, I didn't move.

The bike hit me.

Some part of the bike hit me.

And spectators just don't seem to understand that they cannot get out of the way of these cars and they're unpredictable.

You don't know where a rally car is going to end up.

So in my opinion, it's just a merry go.

There hasn't been a tragedy like it was in Le Mans when Pierre Leva crashed into The Crois and 60 or 70 people were killed.

And that's my crusade.

I don't want to see rallying stock.

I know I have no problem against the speed of rally cars, but I have a problem with spectators being killed.

Yeah.

I mean, the problem was back in the good old days, as you might call it, with the Quattros, the Stratos and everything else.

And I think it was the Portuguese rally.

I mean, one team found fingers lodged in one of the air intakes.

It was the big thing to touch the cars.

And Volta Roll, driving flat out in a Quattro, the only thing he could see in front of him was a sea of people.

He just happened to know, courtesy of Gordemeister, that the roll was straight ahead for another half mile.

Yeah.

Well, the Portuguese, you see, one of.

The rites of passage of a young Portuguese could is to go to a bullring and they line up back to front.

All these young fellows, you know, when they're 21 or some 10 of them line up back to front and let.

A bull charge towards them.

Yeah, I mean that's, that's a sort of a philosophy of life.

You have to do something crazy.

Like I've seen it.

I mean I've been, I've seen it.

Yeah.

And so, you know, it's different.

Every, every nationality has different, you know, philosophies, I suppose.

But thank God when you see the photographs of the tip Portuguese rally that those sort of scenes are not been.

Emulated today because if there were maybe.

Hundreds of people killed.

But I mean the one thing is as well, it's like I said, the modern WRC car is far faster than the ones that they banned, the group B's that they banned.

And there's got to come a limit at some point when the car or the driver of the car, I mean they're all young drivers now.

You don't see old rally drivers anymore.

Well, you do at classic events, but there's got to come a time when even these highly skilled young drivers, the cars will start to get away from them.

Well, it's already happened.

I mean, I just, you know, you're having, you know, the other day about.

This problem, I thought I would just review.

I thought I would just review how many accidents there have been in the WRC this year alone.

Yeah, every, every rally driver in the WRC has crashed.

Everyone.

Yeah, some, some multiple times.

So this tells me these are the best drivers in the world and they're still crashing.

Not everybody crashes.

But if it happened in Formula one, every driver had crashed and some of them multiple times, there would be a big, there would be a big change.

Yeah.

But what this goes to prove is these cars, they're simply too fast for the drivers to have complete control of all the time.

Yeah.

Because the drivers, for a start, an.

Old fashioned rallying, the drivers drove maybe 9/10 because a lot of the events were endurance events.

Yeah.

You know, and you didn't get, you didn't have the opportunity to restart if.

You, if you went off on the.

First stage like they do nowadays.

So now these drivers are driving on the limit all the time.

Yeah.

And all, everybody makes mistakes and they're.

All, they all make mistakes and that's where the problem is arising.

Yeah.

I mean, I can remember Nikki Grist saying the difference, what's the difference between.

I think it was, what's the difference between a racing driver, an F1 driver and a rally driver at the highest level?

And I think Nicky said the rally driver will be immeasurably better than the F1 driver.

And I think that's true to say, because on a circuit, you've got runoff areas, you've got barriers, you've got Marshalls.

All the safety is.

All the safety features and safety backup is there.

I'm pleased to say on a rally, you don't see as many marshals.

They will have to be there, of course, but I mean, you run off area or trees, walls, ditches, basically things that are not, shall we say, safety compliant.

And I think this again is where the problem comes, isn't it?

Yeah, well, I mean, you think back to Formula one, Jackie Stewart's day.

Jackie Stewart was the.

You know, he saw so many of his friends being killed.

I mean, there is a huge number of people racing drivers killed in those days.

And Jackie was the forefront of making changes to make it safer.

Yeah, but Formula one in those days, it's a bit similar to WRC today.

I mean, it's virtually no difference.

And the difference in speed probably isn't that much between a modern WRC car.

And a Formula one car in those days.

So what the FIA has to decide,.

This is what I would like to know.

What does the FIA envisage as to the future of rallying?

What is their philosophy?

What do they want to see?

And do they ask the grassroots rallier what he wants?

As far as I can see, the FAA doesn't care what the grassroots rally wants.

They're only interested in getting more and television and more and more money.

It's all my mind, all about money.

I mean, one of the things is, when you watch the coverage of the WRC championship, you'd be thinking there were only maybe five or six cars and crews in the event because none of the lesser categories ever get any coverage.

And it's the lesser categories, in my opinion, that the true, as you said, the true rally enthusiast wants to see, if only because the cars they're looking at, they can relate to.

A modern WRC car bears no resemblance to the car it's meant to be.

Well, these aerofoils and things, and they're just.

What I can see, Mark, is what is the reason behind these?

What are they trying to achieve?

Okay, let's say they want to make the cars go faster.

So they are putting wings and things on them.

Why do they want to make the cars go faster?

What's the actual reason?

Do they want to make the cars look more spectacular?

Well, if they do, then they don't make.

They have to make changes.

So as the road holding isn't as good.

Get rid of sticky tires, get rid of aerodynamic stuff, you know.

Okay.

It's very spectacular on gravel.

There's no question.

Thousand Lakes is hugely spectacular.

But in tarmac, these cars go around vans as if they're on rails.

Yeah.

They don't move.

They're not spectacular to watch.

And it's like we said at the beginning, they banned Group B cars.

Yes, no problem.

They replaced them with that, if memory serves, it was Group N, which were very, very, shall we say, showroom orientated.

You could see the car.

It was basically a car out of a garage showroom with a roll cage, seam welded and everything else.

And everybody said, it'll be terrible.

And it wasn't terrible.

It was slower, safer.

But the cars were more spectacular because they didn't have all the driver aids fitted to them.

Absolutely.

No question about that.

So, I mean, what has happened is that the FIA Rallies Committee is totally beholden to the manufacturers and the promoters.

It should be the FIA Rallies Committee who makes the decisions about how the cars are built.

It shouldn't be the manufacturers.

But I suppose the FIA Rallies Committee is in a bind because if they propose that the cars are made to certain specifications and the manufacturers, Toyota and Hyundai, say, no, we're not going to take part, then the Rallies Committee are faced with having no cars.

Yeah, but, but I don't think that would happen.

It might take a couple of years, but as in other, you know, not Formula one, but Formula two, Formula three, you have, you have privateer teams.

Yeah.

They don't have to be factory teams privateer and I think are supposed to be privateer teams coming in next year with the new regulations that will happen.

So the FIA Rowies Committee, in my opinion, has not faced up to his responsibilities.

They have simply rubber stamped what the manufacturers and promoters want.

And that's not necessarily what the man in the street rally person wants.

No, the man in the street, as I said, wants to see something he can relate to and possibly at a lesser class, lesser formula may be competing or make it that his lad can compete in.

And at the moment, so I think it's even more expensive than F1.

It's just completely out of everybody's spectrum.

And the other thing is as well, if you get in there with money, and we see this in Formula 1, money doesn't buy you talent.

And there will be some terrible drivers and you put a terrible driver in an ultra fast rally car and I'm not being funny, there's a bad accident or a fatality waiting to happen.

Yeah, well, they're already bad drivers in WRC1.

Yeah.

Money.

But you know, they don't have much skill.

I mean, in Formula one you have to.

You have to basically pass your driving test and have a certain number of points to get into Formula one.

Yeah, that doesn't seem to apply.

If you have enough money to buy a WRC1 car, you can compete.

But I mean, what it must have cost these guys must be astronomical.

Yeah.

So I go back to.

I like to work in basics.

The FIA has to decide what.

Has to tell people what their vision is for the future of wrc.

And we've heard all about this new contract, these new promoters, they're going to change wrc, but they haven't supplied any details of what they're actually going to do.

Yeah.

And the other thing that somebody pointed out to me on my Facebook, they pointed out to me, well, we're having a new WRC next year.

They're going to be like WRC2 cars and they're going to be slower.

Yeah.

Well, let's just wait and see how much slower they are.

And let's just wait and see how much the cost.

Yeah.

I mean it's ridiculous at a rally.

I said, I thought at RC rally car cost 500,000.

Well, somebody pointed out to me that cost far more than 500,000.

I mean, that's not what rallying supposed to be.

I think the average WIC car is about a million quid minimum.

Right.

I mean that's not what rallying is supposed to be.

No.

What.

So you have to find out what is their vision and they have to tell the people who buy pay for licenses, rally licenses.

This is what we envisaged rallying is going to be like in 20 years.

Yeah.

It's like a business, you know.

Yeah.

You have to tell your shareholders what your vision is for the future and rallying has to do the same thing.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean it's like we said yesterday when we were chatting, all sports evolved, rallying will evolve.

Because we were talking about, I mean, people you knew, Don Barrow, another mutual friend of ours, Mike woods, people like that, Ian Grinrod.

And they all came up a lot of the time doing like the Motoring News Championship a lot of the time.

That was the car they went to work in Monday to Friday and on a Saturday night, Sunday morning, it got pressed into being a rally car by having a pair of spotlights fit.

People went quicker, they tuned them so they could get round faster, they could complete peter stage quicker.

But I mean, how far do you keep Taking it.

I mean the modern WIC car now is a space frame with panels fitted to it, an engine and everything else.

It doesn't bear any resemblance to a standard production car.

Where do they go?

I mean they're talking about electric, but I get the feeling electric will not, will not replace a combustion engine rally car.

I really can't answer that what the future will be.

But what we have to know is what does the FIA want?

What is their vision so that we know that people who are going to be participating in 10 or 20 years time, what is their vision?

I don't know anybody knows what their vision is.

What do they think WRC should be?

Is it going to be like a rally, a long rally cross?

Is it only at 1 minute, 3 minute intervals with designated spectators and no other.

Only spectators can only stand in designated parts of the special stage.

I mean that's the only.

As they keep on increasing the speeds, that's the only rational thing that I can see.

Allow rallying to continue.

You can't hurt people.

And it's not.

You go in Ireland, you can't stop people.

You know, there are so many roads leading onto these special stages and people will find a way to stand in dangerous places.

So rallying in Ireland, I don't know what will happen to it.

I mean I spent time in Ireland and everything else.

I mean rallying is an old virtual religion to the Irish.

It's also one of the few countries it used to be where you could temporarily close a road off with not a great deal of forward planning.

Host the rally.

And off it all went again.

I mean it was just incredible was rallying in Ireland.

As to what it's like now, I couldn't comment.

I haven't been for a while.

Oh well, it's just what I mean you can still close roads, of course, I mean that's the beauty of Ireland and that.

But that's getting a little bit more problematic because, you know, take malls, Gap and Lemperry and there was a problem a few years ago because some of the landowners who were, they say we don't want to close the roads.

And that was quite controversial.

And you can.

The secondary effect of the speeds of WRC is.

The secondary effects are that the roads have to be made twistier and twistier and narrower and narrower to keep the average speed down.

Yeah, they're even talking as you know, about having virtual chicanes.

Now the only reason for that is to reduce the average speed so that it's illegal and you know, that's A bad indictment against modern rallying that you have to do that.

Why don't they just have a stop sign halfway through the stage?

The driver make the driver stop for a minute.

I mean that's the same.

A Virgo Circan is exactly doing that.

Yeah.

And it's only, it's only window dressing.

Yeah.

These cars, they, they slow down for the Virgil Chicken but their acceleration is so massive that they're up to sim speed in, in you know, 100 yards.

Yeah mate, I'm just trying to think.

You mentioned one stage there that I've driven on a few occasions, the Great Moles Gap in Ireland.

It would be fascinating to see a WRC car do that and how they will cope.

I mean that is a severe special stage and it's just a normal public road.

Oh absolutely.

And the coaches and guap.

They've changed it quite a bit and it's a lot faster in places.

Yeah.

So the speeds would be phenomenal.

Yeah.

Buses.

Yeah.

It's just a normal road from Killarney to Kenmare or over to Sneems.

So yeah, it's used every day.

There's about thousands of cars on it.

But it's really fast now in places because I say they've widened it because the coaches were having problems in negotiating some of the bends.

So those sort of roads are going to be put out of action because they're too fast.

That's the bad secondary effect of the speed till rallying.

Now one thing, it's no pleasure to sit in a rally car.

I can tell you the most pleasure in sitting in a rally car as a code driver is fast sweeping bends.

I mean that's lovely to sit with these week fooderake4 range that they have to use now.

It can be a real pleasure for the driver or the co driver.

Yeah, I mean that was one thing.

It's like Mike Wood said to me as well and it would be similar to like when you were doing it, that some of the special stages you guys drove, that's just a special stage.

Not all of them were longer than a lot of modern WRC rallies.

The entire rally.

Modern rally is shorter than some of the old special stages.

Yeah.

Well, I mean the year we won the circuit of Ireland there were something like 60 special stages.

And the total mileage of the special stages was 500 miles.

Yeah.

So every third mile in the circuit of Ireland in those days was a special stage.

But we're not ever going to be able to go back to the way rallying was and when I was rallying it's just not possible.

No, too expensive and people don't have the time and you couldn't get marshes and it's just too many things.

But the modern style rallying where they do stages twice, that's apparently I was reading that the reason Ogier crashed was because there had been a change in the road surface at the bend he crashed on from the previous first run and he was caught out.

But that just shows how critical it is, the speeds they are going that they get everything right.

Yeah, but I suppose that's the problem is now they don't though.

You said there's a surface change.

I mean you used to read the road surface as you were going along, didn't you?

I mean you did it to the coal driver, did it to whatever you would read.

I mean I can remember doing an event in Germany, the Eiffel Rally and we did one stage three times and by the time we were doing it the third time the surface had changed in so much.

Quite a lot of the tarmac had been broken up and there was gravel all over it.

So you came into a particular corner and you saw the gravel that was there that wasn't there earlier and you adjusted accordingly.

You know I, I think what this point side is that, you know, rally drivers, Irish rally drivers are very good on Irish roads.

Yeah.

And some of them are.

Can transcend that and, and be very good internationally.

But the reason they're so good on Irish roads is because not because they know the bands but because they know the feel of the road.

Irish roads are different.

There is always going to be a bit of local knowledge involved despite the use of pace notes.

Just because a driver who's brought up in that country, be it the safari in Kenya or be it in the Thousand Lakes, is no coincidence there that the Finlance and the Scandinavians do very well in the thousand lifts.

It's because they have the feel for the roads because they're used to driving on them all the time.

Yeah.

Now the other thing we mentioned was of course the modern rally car, especially wrc.

Another cause of the expense is this peculiar blend of synthetic and biodegradable elements that make up the fuel, which is a fortune a literature.

It.

Yeah.

You see the, the rallies committee.

No, doesn't talk to grassroots people and say, you know, what do you think of the price of this fuel?

They never think about that.

And these poor guys and rallies all over the world.

I have to buy this expensive fuel and have they have to special refueling wholesale.

That's nonsense.

Rallying shouldn't be like that.

That's not rallying.

No, rallying is supposed to be more like the driving fast on a section of road that is similar to driving normally on the same piece of road.

For the average guy, I mean that's simplification.

But you know, they never think.

And tires, I mean, why do you need all these tires?

The cost of doing an event, the tire cost, the petrol costs.

Something should be done about that.

Think of the guys who, you know, are not factory teams.

But the FIA doesn't think about that.

They're beholden, as I said many times, to the factory teams.

Yeah.

And why do they need these special fuels?

It's beyond me.

I mean, sure, there's a political reason, they want to look greener or something like that.

Yeah.

But you know, at what cost?

Yeah.

I mean if you think back to the great days when people used to grab an autograph because they'd see Roger Clark filling his Cossack sponsored Ford Escort up at a local petrol station between.

Stages, there's no reason that shouldn't still happen.

No, there's no reason.

What's the reason?

These special fuels?

I don't know what the reason is.

No, I mean they're testing a fuel.

Fair enough, they're testing a fuel, but they're testing a fuel that's a ludicrously expensive.

It's being forced upon the teams and unless something marvelous happens, it's never going to filter down to the average motorist, is it?

Absolutely not, no, it's.

Yeah.

I mean rallying, as I say, we're never going to go back to the old days.

So there has to be a heavy medium and I'm not asking to go back to the old days.

I mean part of rallying in the old days was a camaraderie and that sets totally gone.

And part of the reason for the camaraderie was again it's versus today is that now you have instantaneous results.

Yeah.

And in the old days that you had to wait until the evening and they had a dance and you know, and a bit of crack.

Everybody was there in a big ballroom and some hotels, some were waiting for the results and, and then whenever the results come out, the winners went up on stage and held up their trophies and they were surrounded by 500 people.

Yeah.

You know, it finishes in the middle of a country somewhere and there's a photo shoot of the drivers receiving their trophies and nobody there.

No, I mean, it's, it's just totally changed and that's because of instantaneous results.

And again, it's not going to go back to the old days because you can't change those sort of things.

I don't know what you can do about that.

The camaraderie, it's just part of rallying that's totally gone.

Yeah.

It also reminds me of the fact that when you did the Motoring News, you found out who'd won, why you were sat having your breakfast somewhere.

Somewhere.

Yeah, yeah.

Then.

And then just, you know, as you know, I organized Asia v Monte Carlo.

Yeah.

It's just a fun event.

You know, how many people ask me, is the Monte Carlo Rally still held?

The man in the street doesn't know that the Monte Carlo Rally is still held.

Yeah.

Which is a crying shame.

I mean, it is still classed as one of the world's greatest.

And it used to have a global following, didn't it?

I mean, especially when they set off in all the different cities before they converged near Monte Carlo and then went the rally as such, all them merged into one.

But I mean, it was a major affair.

It was reported on throughout the world.

Every newspaper used to run a report on what was happening in the Monty and for it has now become.

Nobody knows it's happening.

Oh, absolutely.

I mean, there are crowds of people at the passage.

Passage.

And the first part that you were talking before, before they all joined up.

The passage controls, or time controls are always in the middle of cities are big tower towns and there will be thousands of people lining the roof waiting to see the cars arriving at the time Control.

Yeah, that just, that doesn't happen any longer.

It's just all gone.

But I, I, I don't understand why the manufacturers, Toyota, Hyundai, put so much money into building a rally car that costs a million euros or a million pounds, and yet they don't publicize rallying in their showrooms.

You and you go to a showroom, a Toyota showroom, you're not going to see a photograph of a rally car with a trophy from winning a rally.

You wouldn't even know that Toyota were involved in rallying.

Are Hyundai.

No.

It seems to be a dirty word.

And therefore the PR season of these.

Companies, I mean, these guys, after they won or won their category or anything else similar with the cars that won them all, they would appear in all the showrooms for the publicity.

It was great publicity for the manufacturers.

You say it just doesn't happen.

Nobody has a clue that they do it anymore.

Yeah, well, why would they do it?

What's the, what's the reason?

Hyundai and Toyota actually rally.

Yeah.

I don't understand what they got out of it.

Yeah, they're basically promoting nothing now.

And that doesn't make sense.

I presume maybe Toyota finance director says, okay, here's a budget.

School rallying, here's 30 million pounds, whatever, 50 million, that's your budget.

Go and spend it.

I don't want to know anything more.

That seems to, seems to be what it's all about.

Must be one great big tax loss.

Anyway, BT Crawford, it's been a pleasure chatting to you from your home down in the south of France.

I'm very envious of you because you're also about 30 minutes from the last circuit I raced at Paul Ricard.

So thanks very much indeed, Beatty.

No doubt we will talk again because as I said, yours and my views tend to coincide on all this.

Okay, Mark, it's been a pleasure to chat.

I'll tell you before I sign off,.

I'm going to tell you a little story.

Way back in the 70s, you know, we won the Circuit of Ireland 71 and the 72.

Yeah.

And the circuit wasn't held and Robert Taylor or the guy who sponsored us decided he would, he would like us to do rally Sweden.

Yeah.

So we, we decided, okay, you know, we'll go to Sweden, have a bit of crack.

You know, we had.

Adrian was resting, racing a Ford Mexico at that time.

Yeah.

So we put on, you know, some headlights in the Mexico and some garden.

We headed off to Sweden and some.

And then, you know, studded tires and, and, and we didn't expect to do well.

We didn't do well.

We finished 32nd or something like that.

But it was great.

Crash.

Anyway, the prize giving came along and a lot of Europeans have problems with my name.

You know, Beatty, It's a weird name, isn't it?

It's actually my mother's last name.

Right.

So I get David Beattie Crawford, but the Swedes and the Continentalists, they have a lot of problems with the Beatty and Fatty.

And anyway, Thanksgiving came along and we were all, all sitting at the back.

We hadn't won anything, we weren't expecting anything and we were, you know, liberal supply of beer and snaps and all that sort of stuff.

And I heard my name being called and you know, I didn't pay any attention because there was no reason somebody was calling my name and nobody went up onto the stage and they called it again.

They said Beatty, Crawford.

So all the guys, the Star wars crew, they all beaty.

Beatty, Beatty, that's you.

You better.

So I would have walked, made the lonely walk up onto the stage and there was this woman standing with a bouquet of big red roses beating Crawford that won the ladies award.

So in many ways you're the only male rally driver to win a coup de dome.

I don't know.

I don't know who was more embarrassed.

The lady, the very the Swedes, you know, in those days they were very, very formal and she had a long evening dress on and then waiting to receive some woman who handed this big book she could see she could decent from Northern Ireland.

Anyway, those are the memories of rallying once again.

BT Crawford, thanks very much.

It's been an absolute pleasure.

Okay, Mark, thank you.

Take care.

Bye.