We are in person at the 2024 Animal Forensic Conference in Gainesville, Florida! Dr. G will be interviewing several of the speakers to give our audience a bit of the knowledge gained through the presentations. We will be releasing each interview individually to allow our listeners to find topics of interest.

Preparing for court has many moving parts and Jamie McManus discusses the process from initial hearings to trial. She also explains witness preparation and what veterinarians can do to be better advocates for animals.

We would also like to invite our listeners involved in animal cruelty investigations to visit and join the International Society for Animal Forensic Sciences https://isafs.org/

Mentioned in this episode:

Keep it Humane Podcast Network

The Animal Welfare Junction is part of the Keep It Humane Podcast Network. Visit keepithumane.com/podcastnetwork to find us and our amazing animal welfare podcast partners.

Our next guest is Jamie McManus.

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Thank you for being here

and welcome to The Junction.

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Jamie McManus: Thanks for having me.

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I'm happy to be here.

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DrG: Excellent.

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So can you tell us about what

it is that you do and how it

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relates to animal forensics?

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Jamie McManus: Well, I am a

prosecutor in the state of Florida.

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I work for the state attorney's

office of the Ninth Judicial Circuit.

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My boss is Andrew Bain,

the state attorney.

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We have an animal cruelty unit at the

office of the state attorney in the Ninth

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Circuit, which covers orange and Osceola.

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The Animal Cruelty Unit is, consists

of prosecutors who actually just

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volunteer, right, to take animal

cases that come into their division in

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addition to all of their other cases.

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So they're actually doing more work

and we're not paying them more for it.

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So

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DrG: as a prosecutor, how

do you prepare for a case?

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Jamie McManus: So the first thing

I do, um, if we're talking about

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What charges am I going to file?

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I'm going to read everything that

was written about this incident.

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Sometimes I'm left with questions after

reviewing everything I've been given so

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I may reach out to my animal services,

often my veterinarian to help me fill

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in the blanks, um, or the detective if

there was one to try to get the additional

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information and usually it's information

that I know, if we were at trial, the jury

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would be asking, what about this thing?

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So I try to anticipate all that

on the front end to make sure all

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their questions are answered in

the event we have to go to trial.

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DrG: I spoke with Lauryn Day 'cause

we were talking about the warrants and

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the seizures and that kind of stuff.

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So the term motion to suppress came about.

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So what, what does that mean

and how does it impact the, your

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ability to prosecute a case?

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Jamie McManus: So, it could

be devastating, right?

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A motion to suppress is a written motion

filed by the defendant or his attorney

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asking the court to throw out evidence.

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Exclude it.

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And the basis for that um, exclusion could

be, is usually some kind of constitutional

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violation that the defendant is alleging.

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And the way we combat that, obviously,

is first of all to make sure that the

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motion Um, is not founded, um, but if it

is, is there a way to save the search?

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Um, ultimately, if the motion is

granted and it can't be appealed

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because maybe it was a good motion,

we could have to drop the case.

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DrG: So that would be, for instance,

like in a case of animal cruelty, if the,

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if the paraphernalia in a dogfighting

case was not obtained properly or the

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warrant did not include it and that gets

eliminated, then you are limited to not

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being able to file a dogfighting charge.

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Well,

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Jamie McManus: it depends.

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What other evidence of

dogfighting do I have?

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I mean, because, um, not to get it all

into dogfighting, but, uh, you know,

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Where are the injuries on the animals?

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How many animals were there?

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What kinds of animals were there?

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What was the, uh, what

did the yard look like?

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Were the animals being kept?

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I mean, you know as well as I do, there

are a lot of ways to establish, uh, that

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someone is involved in animal fighting.

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Um, I would hate to lose

the paraphernalia, but I

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would fight hard if I did.

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DrG: In cases of animal cruelty, we have

to take into consideration that animals

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are a different kind of evidence, right?

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They're living evidence and

they cannot be put in a locker

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and locked up and maintained.

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So, um, what are, what are the purposes of

bond hearings and cost of care hearings?

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Jamie McManus: So those are

actually two different things,

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at least in the state of Florida.

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So when an animal is seized from

an owner who has not relinquished

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the animal, right, uh, there has to

be a hearing where the judge just

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determines whether this person should

get their property back because an

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animal is property, technically.

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Um, and so that's a civil

proceeding, usually handled in

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Florida by our county attorneys.

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Now, a bond hearing, the defendant's

been arrested for a crime and, um,

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has gone to jail, has not bonded out

yet, either they can't afford the bond

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that has been assigned to their case

or they want to be released on their

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own recognizance or something like that.

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So at that point, the purpose of the,

of the hearing would be to establish

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that the defendant, um, should not be

released on their own or cognizance

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based on the facts of the case based on,

you know, maybe there's evidence that

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they don't have ties to the community.

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Maybe they'll flee.

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There's a whole list of different factors.

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The court is looking at at a bond hearing.

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Uh, there have been times where I filed

a bond motion, but it wasn't obviously

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asking that the court reduced bond.

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It was asking that the court.

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impose conditions on the bond that

weren't imposed at the time of arrest,

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such as you cannot own, possess, or be

in the company of any animal, right?

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And you notice the language I

use is very specific because what

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defendants have done historically

is say, Oh, I don't own this dog.

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Right.

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It's my daughter's dog.

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DrG: Right.

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Jamie McManus: So I, I fixed

the language so that you cannot

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be in a house conveyance or

structure where there is an animal.

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DrG: And then as far as the cost of care

hearing, what is the purpose of that?

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Jamie McManus: The purpose of, and,

and to be clear, I haven't done those

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hearings, they're civil in nature.

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Um, I've helped a county attorney

one time prepare for one just because

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there was a criminal case attached.

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But basically the court is trying

to decide whether the owner is

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a danger to the animal, right?

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Um, there are specific factors the

court's looking at, um, but essentially

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that's the, the purpose of it.

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Should the animal go back to this owner.

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DrG: So by civil, it basically then in

that, in those, uh, cost of care hearings,

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that's going to be more probable cause,

not as much beyond reasonable doubt.

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Jamie McManus: There is a

different standard of proof.

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Um, probable cause is the second

lowest legal standard that exists.

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So I doubt it would be probable cause

at a hearing, uh, for, you know, custody

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hearing for the animals is probably

preponderance or something like that.

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But yeah, it is less than beyond

a reasonable doubt for sure.

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DrG: So once you have everything

together, how do you prepare yourself

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and your witnesses for trial?

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Jamie McManus: First I prepare myself.

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I look at all the evidence

and what is the story?

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What happened?

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Why did it happen?

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Right?

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What pieces of the background

of this incident are important?

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Right?

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So After I develop the narrative,

then I put my witness list together.

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There may be, you know, 30 people

listed on the witness list just

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because they were somehow involved.

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And in the state of Florida, we have to

list basically everyone who was involved.

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But who am I actually

going to call at trial?

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I make that determination, and then

I determine what is the evidence,

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uh, that I need to present?

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What does the jury need to see?

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More importantly, what

do they want to see?

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Right?

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Um, and assuming that it's relevant and

admissible, I will give them everything

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I can once I've got my game plan

once I have built the house, right?

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I've got the frame

built, um, got the plans.

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Then I start calling my witnesses and

I will set meetings with each of them.

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For me, I have my witnesses

come in the questions.

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I intend to ask them a trial.

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I've already written.

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The evidence I'm going to admit through

them, I have copies of it, or I will,

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um, be able to show them on the computer.

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And we go through, um, the

entire, uh, trial basically.

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Right?

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And, and that way I'm able to issue spot.

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And go back to the drawing

board if I need to.

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Also, it serves the added purpose of

the witness feels more comfortable.

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They know what is going to be asked.

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Um, they know the point

I'm trying to make.

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And so, it's more like a conversation

and less like an inquisition.

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Right.

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DrG: And, and I appreciate that

because I've, I've performed as an

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expert witness a couple of times, and

I've had both ends of the spectrum.

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I had a prosecutor that showed me

every question, discussed everything.

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I mean, she took a couple of

hours to go over everything

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that she was going to go over.

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What kind of information she

was going to have me read.

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What kind of records she

was going to have me do.

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And then I've had the complete opposite,

where I have no information, I have

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no idea of what I'm going to be shown.

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So, what should an expert witness

expect from a prosecutor, or what should

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they kind of demand from a prosecutor?

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Jamie McManus: An expert witness

should demand to be prepared for trial.

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Right.

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Prosecutors are very busy.

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I know you probably heard in

the talk I just gave, we have

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prosecutors in my office that

have close to four and 500 cases.

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Um, that is a lot, it's a lot to read.

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It's a lot of witnesses to talk to.

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So we have to be kind of realistic

with what they're able to do.

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Animal cruelty in Florida, it's a

felony, but it's a third degree felony.

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So that means the prosecutors at the

very bottom of circuit court, so the

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lowest level prosecutors, are the ones

that handle the animal cruelty cases.

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The ones that have four and five hundred

other cases, which is part of the reason,

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uh, you know, I thought it was really

important to have an animal cruelty unit.

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Because a prosecutor who really

cares about the subject matter, is

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going to put their heart into it.

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And do it right.

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Versus how they handle every other

of their third degree felony cases.

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Keeping all that in mind, if

your prosecutor does not reach

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out to you and you know, you've

got a trial subpoena, right.

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I would reach out to the prosecutor.

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It may take a couple of times.

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But let them know, Hey, I don't know

what you're going to ask me at trial.

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Can you call me and we can spend

like 20, 30 minutes going over it?

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Um, and if you have your questions

written out, you can send them to

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me and, and we'll save some time.

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Um, but really it, it's very important

as the expert, uh, that you spend time

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ahead of time with your prosecutor.

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Uh, and you're right, the prep

of an expert witness, even on

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a third degree felony, like an

animal case, your prep would take

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a couple hours if I were doing it.

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I mean, and it's going to depend on

the facts of the case, but you know,

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we have to establish your expertise.

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Um, and then we, we, we're not just

talking only about the facts of the case.

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We're talking about your, your

diagnosis and why you reached it.

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So in order to get there and, and to

make it as, um, I guess digestible as

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possible for the jury, You know, the

prosecutor and the, the veterinarian

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need to get together ahead of time and

make sure they understand each other.

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It's already difficult enough

because of the scientific terms.

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It's

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a specialty.

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So not only does a prosecutor need to

learn what you know, kind of, but the

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prosecutor needs to be able to reinterpret

that so that a jury will understand it.

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and use it in a meaningful way within

the confines of the facts of their case.

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DrG: Can a poorly prepared

witness damage your case?

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Jamie McManus: No, it's the

prosecutor who damaged the case.

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So, yes, if the prosecutor poorly prepares

their witnesses, the case can be affected.

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DrG: Veterinarians are often needed for

these cases, but I know from experience

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that a lot of veterinarians are reluctant

to be expert witnesses for a lot of

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different reasons from feeling unprepared

for feeling that they're going to be

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grilled and their knowledge and integrity

is going to be put on the stand, like,

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they feel like they're on their stand.

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Um, to also feeling that, them being

in a court of law as a witness is

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going to look bad to the community.

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They're going to say, well, if I take

my sick animal to the vet, and the

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vet is testifying against me, you

know, like, how is that going to look?

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And in my experience, none of those

things are necessarily true, but I

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feel that it's a lack of preparation.

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How can you help a veterinarian

feel more confident and be a

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more effective expert witness?

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Jamie McManus: So the first thing I

would say is anything that happens

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in the case is on the prosecutor.

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And maybe sometimes on

the lead investigator.

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So I, I think a lot of veterinarians,

uh, because they're high achieving

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people and they care about the animals.

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They're really just worried about

messing something up and they

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don't want to be the cause of that.

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DrG: Right.

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fear of failure.

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Jamie McManus: Right.

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And I understand it.

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So I would just say to them,

it's never on your witness.

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The second thing I would say, anytime you

have an expert witness, that expert is

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going to be cross examined by defense.

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And defense is going to insinuate

that that expert witness is not an

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expert, or that they're a bad expert,

or that they're a dumb expert, um,

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and it's just par for the course.

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Like I said in my talk, you have to

let the defense attorney do a good

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job, because if you don't, and we get

a conviction, the case might come back

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and then we're going to do it again.

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So let the defense

attorney do their thing.

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Um, the third thing I would say is that

No matter what the defense says or does,

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um, the veterinarian is gonna have their

opportunity to speak to the jury and tell

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the jury what happened to this animal.

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And the jury will make a

credibility determination.

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Um, it's hard to imagine a

scenario where a veterinarian

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loses credibility to the jury.

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Just because, um, you know, the defense

attorney, you know, pointed out some

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minor flaw in some area, maybe of the

necropsy, or pointed out, you know,

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well, you can't really know for certain

that this is how the animal died.

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Well, no, I can't know for certain.

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I'm estimating, uh, based on

my training and experience.

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So that's my legal opinion, you know,

um, I think most of what I would say

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to a veterinarian who is hesitant

to testify, uh, would be kind of

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focused on, don't worry, I got this.

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I just need you to be there

and just answer the questions

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and don't worry about the rest.

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But if, if I can't get you there, um, then

there may not be justice for this animal.

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Worse, this guy may do it again.

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Um, and so I think those are the

big points I would bring to the

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veterinarians who are hesitant and I

hope that eventually as we move forward,

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um, kind of developing a culture and

prosecution offices where animal cases

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are taken seriously, we're going to

call more and more vets to testify.

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Pretty soon, my hope is, that there won't

be a vet or veterinarian in Orange or

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Osceola County who hasn't testified yet.

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And then it'll become old hat, right?

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DrG: Yes.

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So that would, that would be great

because, yeah, it is so important for

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a veterinarian to be able to explain

what happened to the animal as opposed

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to a layperson, animal control officer,

somebody that can be questioned,

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as you said, about the level of

their expertise and their knowledge.

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Right.

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So we definitely need veterinarians

to kind of step up and, and get

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over their fear and get it done.

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Jamie McManus: Well, and you know,

the, the most important thing to

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me, and I didn't say it, but you

know, animals are voiceless victims.

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They literally have no voice.

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They will be abused and, brought to the

brink of death by the owner or whomever.

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But they will still love the

owner, uh, and, uh, they forgive.

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Um, but you know, when it's time to get

justice for what happened to the animal,

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uh, there's really no one to speak for

that animal except for the veterinarian.

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And really on my animal

cases, the veterinarian is

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the most important witness.

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DrG: Well, thank you very much for

sharing your information with us.

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And thank you for everything

that you do for animals.

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Thank you.

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Jamie McManus: Thank you too

for being a veterinarian, a

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forensic veterinarian at that.

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You guys are, uh, very

necessary in my line of work.

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Thank you so much.

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Thanks.