The central theme of this discourse revolves around the profound assertion that one ought not to commence their journey of self-discovery with the question of "why," but rather with the inquiry of "whom." In a society that has long extolled the virtues of identifying one's purpose, we challenge the conventional wisdom by positing that understanding one's identity—who one is—must precede any exploration of motivation or rationale. Throughout our conversation, we delve into the complexities of self-awareness, emphasizing that without a clear grasp of our personal narratives and intrinsic values, our pursuits may become misaligned with our true selves. This episode elucidates the notion that external influences can often cloud our understanding of purpose, leading to a disconnection from one’s authentic motivations. Join us as we engage in a thoughtful examination of these concepts, aiming to facilitate a more profound comprehension of self and its implications on our endeavors.

The discussion presented in this episode engages deeply with the profound themes of identity and purpose, challenging the long-standing adage to 'start with why.' Host Avik and guest David embark on an enlightening exploration that emphasizes the necessity of recognizing one's identity—the 'who'—prior to articulating a meaningful 'why.' David's insights provoke thought around the nature of personal motivations, suggesting that many individuals may traverse their personal journeys without a clear understanding of their intrinsic selves, thereby leading to a misalignment of purpose. Throughout the conversation, David shares his experiences as a coach and highlights the significance of self-awareness in cultivating a genuine understanding of one's motivations. He articulates that in order to establish a true sense of purpose, individuals must first engage in a reflective process that fosters an understanding of their core values and unique identities. The dialogue serves as an invitation for listeners to examine the influences of societal expectations and external validations that often cloud their self-perceptions. David encourages an introspective approach, suggesting that the journey towards understanding one’s purpose is inextricably linked to a profound exploration of self. Moreover, the episode delves into the critical role of supportive relationships in this journey of self-discovery. David underscores the importance of surrounding oneself with individuals who can reflect back one's strengths and foster resilience. By the conclusion of the episode, listeners are left with a compelling understanding of the interplay between identity and purpose, and the imperative of pursuing self-awareness as a foundational element for personal growth and fulfillment.

Takeaways:

• The podcast emphasizes the paramount importance of understanding one's identity before defining one's purpose, challenging the conventional wisdom of starting with why.
• Listeners are encouraged to engage in self-reflection and surround themselves with supportive individuals who can help illuminate their unique qualities and strengths.
• The discourse highlights the notion that true resilience stems from a deep understanding of oneself, enabling individuals to navigate life's challenges with steadfastness.
• The hosts advocate for a shift in perspective from merely surviving to actively thriving, urging listeners to identify what ignites their passion and joy in life.

Links referenced in this episode:

• theasperience.com

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Home Depot
• Louis
• True North Resiliency Program
• Simon Sinek
• Dr. Andy Garrett

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Dear listeners, most of us have been told the same thing our whole lives that start with your why.

Know your purpose, find your reason.

But what if, what if the reason keeps moving?

What if you cannot trust your why factor because you haven't been honest about your who factor?

I know most of you are thinking about why Avik is saying why and who, all those things, but just hold your horses because today we'll be talking about a very deep topic.

And so the conversation is definitely going to challenge something in that you thought you already knew about yourself and it might be exactly what you needed to hear.

So.

Hey, Dear listeners, welcome back to another powerful episode of Mind meets Machine, the podcast where we explore the intersection of human thinking, modern challenges, and the kind of self awareness that actually changes things.

I'm your host, Savik, and I'm genuinely glad that all of you are here today.

And my guest today, please, please welcome.

Before I say that, before I say that, he, he has built products that sit on the shelves in over 3,700 retail stores, including Home Depot and Louis.

So he's a lead coach in the True north resiliency program and he is writing a book called the Guardians of Grit.

And his philosophy is deceptively simple, but deeply powerful.

Never start with why, start with whom.

So I'll not take much of a time.

So please welcome our guest, David.

Welcome to the show, David.

Hey, Avi.

Great, great to be here with you.

Thanks for having me.

Amazing.

So, David, like, before we get into the big stuff, I want to ask something that I don't always open with.

Like, you have built things, coached people, and now you are writing a book for fathers raising sons.

Where, I mean, where in all of that did you first realize that you were the common thread and everything going sideways?

I mean, if I can share it.

Yeah, yeah.

Thank you.

You know, it's interesting, I think, you know, for most people, right, you, you launch, you launch out into life.

You know, I'm 52 now and you launch out into life and some of it is survival mode.

You know, you're just trying to survive, right?

I gotta pay the bills, I gotta provide for my family, you know, and, and you're, you know, you just kind of start throwing stuff at the mall to see if fix and all that kind of stuff.

And after a while though, you start to, or my story is I just kind of started to run a bit, you know, a bit dry.

Like I was, didn't have much gas in the tank.

And so I felt like my, you know, my.

Why was just not super clear.

And.

And I was introduced about 10 years ago to a friend of mine, Dr. Andy Garrett, who I work with now, he's a clinical psychologist.

And he made a comment one time, he said, you know, if you haven't built some self awareness, you know, like, what makes me different from the person next to me?

Like, why am I different from my mom and dad and my brother and sister and, you know, things like that.

Like, what is it that makes me tick?

What is it that causes my energy to rise?

And then he started introducing me to all of the various things that make us us, you know, that are that unique piece, right?

And we think of things like values.

You know, we talk about core values a lot, but what is it that my core, right, my soul happens to value most of all in this life?

You know, the hierarchy of things, right?

Those things that really rise to the top.

And, you know, you.

Then you think of convictions and virtues, like what type of an impact you want to have in other people and what are your strengths and how do you want to apply those things.

And there's a lot that goes into it, you know, that, that helps you to identify, you know, the word identity, you know, who you are.

And I.

So here's what's interesting too, is, is, you know, we didn't.

We have to.

We have to kind of submit to a few things.

Meaning what?

I didn't make me, right?

I didn't choose my skin color where I was born, right?

You're in India, I'm in the United States.

I didn't choose what family I was born into.

You know, I didn't choose my eye color, my taste buds.

And here's the fascinating thing.

We really don't choose even our own personalities.

We like to think we do because we have the ability to think about our thinking, right?

With consciousness, right?

We can think about thinking.

Heck, we can think about thinking about thinking.

I mean, it's kind of a fascinating thing.

But the weird thing is, is if you look at little children, you know, when they're 0 to 5 or 6 years old, you know, they're not thinking about their.

Why, they're not thinking about identity and authenticity and mission and purpose and all this kind of thing, they're just doing their deal and acting right inside of their authentic, you know, authored nature.

And of course, you know, we get out into life and stuff starts getting tricky, right?

I mean, you get.

You get picked on, you get bullied, you get, you know, made fun of or, you know, whatever, you know, the hardship of life starts to Hit you.

And then you start to play a bit of a role.

You know, when I do X, Y and Z, things work.

When I do X, Y and Z, things don't work.

Whether that's literally with a job or something or with a particular person.

And I get.

I get some applause if I do X, Y and Z, or I get laughed at or, you know, disciplined or whatever.

And so what I think is interesting is, is that when you start to identify, literally just write down those things that really rise to the top for you individually, well, then all of a sudden your why becomes your why.

No, it's.

And so.

And otherwise your why might be your dad's or your brother's or somebody, you know, somebody you.

You admire, you know, because you don't have a sense of yourself.

And so I think it's really important to, you know, to do that.

And one of the things that I. I love and I.

Most people who know me, I use this quote a lot.

Benjamin Disraeli said, the greatest good you can do for another is not to share with him your riches, but to reveal to him his own.

And I love this idea of, you know, holding up a mirror to someone you know, and especially, you know, my wife and kids and my friends.

Right.

Like, hey, you're awesome.

Do you see what I see?

You know, we.

We need someone on the outside to.

To love us, to validate us, to name those riches in us, you know, especially when we're children.

Right.

We need to be raised, not just provided for.

There's a big difference between someone just providing for you in a general sense of safety and someone who is causing you to rise into a life that is powerful and good and mission focused.

So, yeah, I'm all about it.

That makes the kind of stuff that gets me pretty excited.

That's really amazing.

So I definitely want to talk about the misconception part.

Like, here's something I find fascinating about your work, is that the world has been saying, find your why for years now.

Like, Simon Sinek made it almost a kind of gospel.

So.

And you are standing there saying, no, stop.

That's the wrong starting point.

So, I mean, if you walk me through that, like, what was the misconception that almost everyone, almost everyone carries into their own personal growth?

Yeah.

And of course, Simon's book is fantastic.

I'm having a little fun with this.

Right.

I mean, it's not taking away from what he did there.

He's a probably a smarter man than I am.

But I do think that, you know, again, you just need to tap the brakes and, and you know, look in the mirror, right?

And have someone else, really, you have to have other people that walk along with you to help you begin to identify those things.

You've probably heard that phrase, you know, when you're inside the jar, you can't read your own label.

You know, you need someone to read your label.

What is that?

Right?

That's your dad, that's your mom, that's your, hopefully your older siblings.

You know, just saying, hey, and what you did yesterday when you said this or did this, I can tell that came from a really deep place.

And by the way, that landed really well on all of us.

Like, that was a really good thing.

I can tell you care deeply about that.

Like you're passionate about this particular thing.

I mean, we get the word passion from the word suffer, right?

What are you willing to suffer for?

Well, that says a lot about what you care about and what you value.

So, you know, it's, it's.

Some of it is quite practical.

Some of it is very easy.

You know, I mean, for instance, you probably have done this too, where you write your own eulogy.

You know, like, what do you want people to say about you when you die?

Like at your funeral, you know, or after the fact, for that matter.

And it's amazing what rises to the top on what you value most of all.

You know, like, what type of an impact do I want to be?

What do I really care about?

What don't I care about?

How about that?

You know, that's a, that's a big deal.

So, yeah, I think to, you know, to do some self awareness and then surround yourself with people who can, you know, hold up a mirror and help you to stay on that path.

Because, you know, we live in a broken world, right?

The world, I mean, severely broken.

Not only, you know, on a very practical level, if I don't sleep well, I get up in the morning and I'm like, man, you know what?

Who the heck am I today?

You know what I mean?

Like, we're so human.

We're so gloriously human and we need people to support us and love us, and we also need to do that for others.

And when someone does start with why, what tends to happen?

Like, where does it break down for them?

Yeah, I think that there's a potential.

Right?

So I'm not, I'm not saying that you might, you might be able to start with why and actually get really close to the who, right?

So I'm not saying that that, that can't Be a. I mean, I mean, you need to start somewhere.

And if you don't understand kind of the identity authenticity piece, why is the next closest thing.

And it's so you might land right on it.

I mean, you might get really close.

So that's okay.

But what I'm saying is, is what if you're not.

What, what if.

What if you, you're so insecure?

What if you have so many question marks inside of you that your why is now someone else's that you kind of admire and you're going to start going down a road that's going to lead to feeling apathetic and avoidant and stuck and maybe anxious, or you go too long and you're going to feel, I mean, depressed.

Like, man, I'm.

I am spending all of my energy just trying to drum up some kind of emotion around something that I care about.

But you know what?

I really don't.

And that's a, That's a tough road.

You can waste a lot of years doing that.

Yeah.

And so the why becomes unstable because it's sitting on a foundation that we haven't examined and we are answering a question before 4.

We understand the person asking it, so that's why.

And.

But enormous insight.

So also would love to get into the root causes, like in your coaching.

I mean, my curiosity is basically in your coaching work, when you sit with someone and start helping them understand, like who they actually are at that granular level that you talk about, and what tends to show up that surprises them.

So what's underneath that surface that most people haven't looked for?

You know, it's interesting.

There's so much.

But the thing that really came to mind as you were saying, that is, you know, if.

About this, I'll back into it this way.

If you don't, if you don't know someone.

Yeah.

What's their love?

Right.

If you say, you know, you have a friend and you say, man, I love you.

Well, what, what if you only see him once a year?

You know, what if you've only met them five times, you don't really know them.

I mean, you don't know what lights them up.

You don't know their sense of humor.

You don't know what they care about, what gives them goosebumps, what makes them weep.

The same goes for yourself.

You know, if.

So I, I think the fascinating thing is when, and I use this phrase a lot when I'm coaching somebody, I say, let me introduce you to yourself, well, guess what?

Now there's someone to Love.

Now there's someone to care for as opposed to, you know, a vague understanding that I'm a human doing and not a human being.

And, you know, you start to, you know, and sadly, there's a lot of people that have just never had anybody hold up a mirror and say, hey, you're made of awesome.

You know, they don't believe it.

They don't like themselves, they don't love themselves.

In fact, in fact, I think a lot of people walk around with a real heavy sense of disgust, you know, about who they are.

And it's tragic.

And in your own story, you have talked about doing it all wrong and eventually asking for help.

So what was the pattern underneath your own struggles that took the longest to see.

Yeah, and you know, and obviously there's, I'm still growing and learning and course, course correcting.

So, yeah, you know, Dr. Andy talks a lot about course correcting.

You know, like when a plane, you know, leaves Mumbai and it's, you know, headed to whatever, Cape Town or something, right.

It's constantly course correcting.

It's only on target.

I think they say like 3% of the time, you know, because the wind is blowing and the altitude is shifting and, you know, so you're constantly course correcting.

So I think that, you know, as you grow and you have a deeper understanding of, you know, who you are and whose you are on an eternal level, then all of a sudden it's like, I know who I'm course correcting to.

You know, I, I, I believe that God made us in his image.

And there's a lot of clues surrounding that, right?

The same God that made Neptune and, you know, Venus and lightning and hurricanes and tornadoes and koala bears, you know, made us.

And there's some clues there that really we need to tap the brakes and look at, like, oh my gosh, that guy says, I am made in his image.

I mean, there's better, at least tap the brakes and, and start asking some better questions.

And.

Okay, so if you talk about the real life part, I mean, everything, not the big pivots or maybe dramatic rock bottom moments, just the ordinary.

Tuesday.

So today is Tuesday, right?

So what does being your own way actually look like on a regular day?

Like in business, in relationships, in the decisions like someone makes before they even realize that they are making them.

So what do you say?

Yeah.

So I love this idea when you, when you really understand all of those things.

Values, convictions, virtues, goosebumps, strengths.

And you've written them down.

I know.

Pre Andy Garrett, Dr. Garrett says I've predetermined what I'm going to say yes to and no to in advance of an obstacle or an opportunity.

So, you know, it's.

It's like this, you know, I think it's.

Seth Godin says, you know, people like us do things like this.

So you have a really clear sense of what does somebody like me do in a situation like this?

And, you know, so here we are on a, you know, a Tuesday morning, and honestly, I woke up this morning and the alarm went off and I'm like, oh, man, it's time to go work out.

You know, go to the gym and I meet a friend of mine there for some accountability.

And again, I put those things in place because I know that someone like me, if I'm not meeting somebody at the gym, I don't go.

So I need to have some accountability.

I need to have some support.

And here's what's fascinating.

I think that what really gets me to show up at the gym is that I'm actually meeting someone.

He's kind of a mentor of mine that I really like being with.

Like, he's wild, smart, he's funny.

Like, we just have such a great time.

So.

So what am I saying there?

I'm valuing.

I've already predetermined that, yes, I need some support and accountability.

But you know what?

I value relationships with people who are awesome.

So I'm stacking those things together.

Because then when I go to the gym, it's not, well, I gotta, you know, I have to do this and I'm feeling like some kind of a victim.

No, I'm short enough to treat myself well.

And I get to enjoy a good friend and some good conversation.

Okay.

And I mean, if you talk about the resilience, right, which is central to everything that you teach.

So what does it look like when someone is practicing it?

Well, like, not just surviving, but actually building something that holds.

Yeah, I love that.

I've never heard somebody use that phrase, like, building something that holds.

You know, that makes me think of.

I'm actually going to write that down.

Building something that holds.

Okay.

So I. I actually at an event last week down in Dallas, and a guy gave an analogy of talking about rock climbers.

You know, when they're scaling a face of a.

A rock, they have these, you know, the belays and these different, you know, anchor points that they're, you know, they'll put in, like, their crevice of a rock so they can, you know, pull.

Pull their weight on it, and it Makes me think of words like steadfastness, you know, grit, resilience, you know, and this idea of what you said of, you know, holding.

So again, I really think that, you know, if, if you haven't predetermined these things, you know, like, what am I standing on?

What are my values?

What is it that makes me steadfast?

You know, what are the.

How about this?

What are the big fat rocks that are holding me, right?

Am I standing on sinking sand or am I standing, you know, on words like dignity and honor and kindness and, you know, fairness and, you know, and things like that.

So I think that on a very practical level, you know, we, we have to determine the big rocks that we're standing on that are holding us, by the way, because guess what, Like I said earlier, if I get up in the morning and I haven't slept or I've got a, a cold or something like that, it's amazing how intellectually, you know, things can kind of go out the window and I start sliding.

True, very true.

Yeah.

So I mean, yeah, like, I mean, resilience is not a kind of armor.

It, it's, it's most like the roots.

The deeper, the more self aware that you are, the less obviously you get knocked over.

So I mean, practically, like if someone is listening or maybe they will also listen later, maybe a founder, maybe dad, maybe a person who's been running on empty and operations on autopilot, what is the first honest and conversation they need to have with themselves?

Like if I, if I say about the question, like, what would be the question that actually starts the whole.

Yeah, you know what?

I think there's a question before that and I think that quite often, you know, those of us who, and I've been there so many times and I still dip my toe in that water.

But if you're running on empty, it might be because you need some sleep, it might be because you need some food.

It might be very practical.

Right?

We are mind, body and spirit.

So what I would hate to do is if somebody comes into my office, you know, for some coaching.

Yeah, I would hate to, to just start throwing a bunch of deep work at them when they just need to take a nap.

When they, when they body, when they need a safe space just to, just to be.

So I think that, I think to letting, you know, letting someone just sit in a safe space and let the, the adrenaline and cortisol and all the stuff running in their body just kind of simmer down a little bit, that's really the most Important thing.

And even now, when I'm feeling like I'm off, it's usually quite often a very physical thing that I need to kind of calm my body down so that my brain can even work.

Yeah.

So anyway, I, I think then, you know, a larger question too then might be in that moment, you know, what do you really want?

Like, what is it that, you know, that sets your soul on fire?

And I use those kind of, you know, more explosive language because I want someone to get to that explosive place in their soul, you know, I mean, if you ask somebody, what do you want in life?

Well, okay, they'll, they'll rattle off a few things, but if you ask somebody, you know, Avi, when you put your head down tonight, you know, on, on your pillow and you're rehearsed, you're rehearsing everything that went on today, what are those things that you wish you could set down and what are those things that you wish you could, like, turn up the volume on?

Because when you do or say these particular things or you're with these certain types of people, really.

Cause, you know, your heart to grow and like, wow, that was fun.

Wow.

I felt like me.

Wow.

I felt totally alive, you know, and it's.

So that's.

I think that just to start on a more of a macro, higher level, like, what do you hate?

What don't you want to do anymore?

And what is it that, you know, causes your joy to rise?

And is there a moment, like a signal, a feeling situation where you say that this is when you stop and ask for the help?

Because a lot of people listening have crossed that line and you don't know yet as well.

So,.

Yeah, I, you know, I think that's a kind of a constant, you know, process.

I think that every day we get up and, you know, I heard, I forget who said it, but somebody said every day is a new life.

And I think experientially for me, you know, to be present in the moment because I'm.

I'm always one who's looking for the next thing and getting excited about, you know, something a week or two down the road or more.

And I, and I think that, you know, every day is a, is a new life.

And I really believe the, you know, right now is what matters.

So to, you know, so to, to be kind to yourself and to, you know, kind of self assess and to, you know, and how about this?

You know, those of us who are parents, I don't know, do you have children?

So, you know, we, we will do just about anything to keep our kids from hanging out with the wrong crowd.

Right?

Because your kids, I mean, they'll become just like the troublemakers.

But here's the funny thing.

We don't think about that for ourselves quite often.

So I think that, you know, one of the things that we need to be just really adamant about is who we are spending a lot of time with.

Because we become like them, we think like them.

I don't want to.

I don't want to be hanging out with people who are negative and who are pessimistic and we're always trying to find the faults and that kind of stuff.

I want to hang out with people who are talking about goals and ideas and about expansion and mission and love and family and building something.

And.

So, like, here's something I think about a lot is like, because transformation is one thing, but staying transformed is another thing as well.

So you can have a breakthrough, understand yourself better, start showing up differently, and then life happens.

You fall back into old patterns.

It can repeat also.

So what do you say to someone who's been doing the work and still find themselves back to square one?

Yeah.

So two things.

I would say we do not live.

And we will never live in a utopia.

Right.

We are not home.

We are not.

I'm a Christian.

We are not home.

This is not my home.

Right.

It will be one day when it is made new and when I am made new.

But we have to acknowledge that we live in a broken world.

So what's fascinating is quite often the expectation.

The reason I'm upset or the reason I'm sad or disillusioned is because I have some expectation that life is going to be perfect.

It's not.

So we have to set the expectation that I was born into a world that's broken and a world at war.

And not only am I at war with people around me, sometimes I'm at war with myself.

Right?

We.

We often tell ourselves.

We say the meanest things to ourselves.

We would never tell our.

Our neighbor, right.

Or our worst enemy, for that matter.

So I think that just to set expectations is really important.

But here's something else I think is, again, we're mind, body and spirit.

So if.

If you feel like you get up in the morning and you're like, wow, yesterday I felt like I was so mission oriented.

Now I don't even care about anything.

Well, join the club, right?

That's.

That is absolute humanity.

And there's no one that doesn't struggle with that.

But again, I think after You've identified, you know, the.

The who.

Now the why means you need to treat yourself kindly.

You need to calm down.

Right.

Care for your mind and your body and your spirit, and then reorient to that plumb line.

So I've.

I've identified that plumb line that is inside of me.

Things like, you know, like my core values.

What are my faith in God, inspiration, which means breathe life into.

I love impact.

Like, literally.

I like to see, you know, the David Oscar shaped impact on someone around me.

I like community, and I like beauty.

So if I'm not operating in kind of those, you know, top five core values on a regular basis.

Well, I had.

I better ask.

At least have the sense to ask the question, why am I feeling so depleted?

It's because I'm operating over here and all of this other stuff that I don't really care about.

It's not to say that there's not moments on any given day that you have to do that kind of thing or any given week or month.

Life.

Life can be hard.

But I think in general, you know, we need to ask better questions.

If I'm feeling depleted, it's probably because I'm.

I'm operating in a capacity that is just draining my energy because it's not me.

Exactly.

That's amazing.

So, I mean, David, like, if you have to give one advice to the listeners today, what that will be.

Yeah.

You know, might sound kind of cheesy or something, but, you know, you need to surround yourself with awesome people who love you and hold up a mirror and say, you know, you are made of awesome.

Yeah.

And I want to start identifying all of that gold in you and draw it out and name it, call it forth, and to help you run in your lane.

I don't want you to be like.

I mean, when you think about, you know, my kids.

Right.

I don't want to tell them.

What's the worst thing you could say to your son?

It's, you know, why can't you be like your older brother?

Why can't you be like this?

No, I don't want Parker to be like me.

I want him to be who God made him to be and all of his beautiful and wonderful uniqueness.

Because he's going to feel authentic and feel natural and normal and resilient and free and as opposed to trying to play some other role.

So, yeah, I think that's kind of the.

The.

Amazing.

And if someone wants to connect with you, how they can connect.

Yeah.

So I. I haven't.

I've done a bit of a soft launch, but if you go to the theasperience.com I have a podcast that we just launched and that's kind of my mission there.

And hopefully we'll have the book out later this year too.

Amazing.

So, dear listeners, what I'll do is I'll put all the links and the details into the show notes for you.

Easy reference so that you can easily reach out to David.

And with this hope, that's the wrap of today's episode of Mind Meets Machine.

And if something David said is still sitting with you, don't rush past it.

That feeling is, I would say, information.

Sit with it, write about it, maybe share with someone who needs to hear it about, or maybe someone you know, someone you are very connected with, you love the most.

Just share with them.

You can find David's details in the show notes, as I mentioned, and if this conversation meant something to you, I would love for you to share it with.

Not to throw the numbers, but because someone in your life might genuinely need this today with this hope.

This is your host and this is Mind Me Machine.

Take care of your mind and it's the only one you have got.

So see you next time.

Thank you so much.