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Lessons from a World-Class Seller - Brian LaManna
Episode 27 • 8th April 2024 • RevOps FM • Justin Norris
00:00:00 00:51:33

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I've worked with a bunch of different sellers. Some were good. Some not so much. But one or two were truly next level.

They had consistently better results. They brought in bigger deals. They closed accounts no one else could. And they just seemed to "get it" in a different way.

They were switched on—you didn't need to tell them what to do. Whatever challenge you threw at them, they found a way. They seemed built just a little bit differently than other people on the team.

I've always been curious about what makes those great sellers great.

To help answer that question, I sat down with true superstar of the sales world, 5x President's Club winner Brian LaManna, Strategic AE at Gong.

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About Today's Guest

Brian LaManna is a Strategic Account Executive at Gong and Founder of Closed Won, where he offers resources and playbooks for sellers. He is a 5x President's Club winner and regularly achieves 200%+ of quota.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianlamanna/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [01:28] - Role of a seller in the revenue process
  • [03:11] - Sales is not convincing
  • [04:03] - Defusing prospect defensiveness
  • [05:48] - When to break the sales process
  • [07:21] - Are good sellers born or made?
  • [09:26] - Attributes of a great seller
  • [11:25] - Developing a “CEO” mindset
  • [13:17] - Cultivating real relationships with customers
  • [16:11] - Mindsets, strategies, and routines
  • [24:18] - Benefits of selling Gong
  • [25:28] - The sales / sales ops relationship
  • [28:53] - How ops can get sellers to cooperate
  • [31:45] - What does Gong’s RevOps team do well?
  • [33:43] - Why AEs should always be prospecting
  • [39:02] - Current state of outbound
  • [41:39] - Live example: creating a tailored cold email
  • [44:47] - Personalization vs. relevance
  • [46:45] - How sellers can win at “social selling”

Resource Links

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Transcripts

Justin Norris:

Welcome to RevOpsFM everyone.

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So I've never been a seller

officially, but I did lead a pre

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sales consulting team for a while.

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And I got to ride along

on lots of sales cycles.

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I even got some variable comp

for a bit, and that was fun.

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And I worked with a bunch

of different sellers.

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Some were good, some not so much.

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And there were one or two that

were really just next level.

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They had consistently better results.

10

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They brought in bigger deals.

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They closed accounts.

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:

No one else could.

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And they just seemed to

get it in a different way.

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:

They were switched on.

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You didn't need to tell them what to do,

whatever challenge you threw at them.

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They found a way, it seemed to me

like they were just built a little bit

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differently than other people on the team.

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And so I've always been curious about

what makes those great sellers great.

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What makes them who they are?

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And to help answer that question, I am

joined today by a true superstar of the

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sales world, Brian LaManna, a strategic

AE at Gong and founder at ClosedOne.

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Brian is a five times president's club

winner and has nearly doubled or even

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tripled his quota every year at Gong.

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He's also one of the top

sales voices on LinkedIn.

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You may be familiar with him.

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Sharing tons of frameworks,

tips, and best practices.

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So, Brian, you're going to reveal all

the secrets of sales for us today.

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And I'm super excited

to have you on the show.

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Brian LaManna: How long do we have?

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super excited.

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I appreciate you having me, Justin.

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Justin Norris: maybe just a first

question, and some ways it seems obvious,

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but I often find the obvious questions

reveal a lot of interesting truths.

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How do you think about your role

as a seller in the revenue process?

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Marketing, sales, customer success,

what is your job in this pipeline?

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Brian LaManna: Yeah.

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I think first and foremost, I think

of my job like internally as I'm

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the CEO of my own book of business.

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That's the mentality I want to have.

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So if I'm given a certain account

list, say it's 300 potential new logos,

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maybe some customers, even though

I'm, quote unquote, just an account

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executive, Individual contributor,

not a director or VP or C suite.

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I really take the ownership that, Hey,

I'm the CEO of all of those accounts

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in terms of how I run my business, So

that's kind of the internal framing.

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in terms of the external framing.

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think of my role as a seller and

other sellers roles as well as

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really just you are there to give a

customer an exceptional experience

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as they go through their evaluation.

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There's two scenarios.

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One, they either have an active project

or initiative around this, and they're

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probably looking at you as well as some

other competitors and it's your role

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to give them an exceptional experience,

point out why customers would choose

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you, why you might be a unique solution

to help solve their business, or maybe

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it was created via outbound, they've.

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Never considered or even heard

of a solution like yours before.

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And it's even a further step back to

really help them uncover maybe some

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challenges in their business that they've

never thought about in a certain way,

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help educate them on the market and

help educate them on your solution to

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see if it could be a potential fit.

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So, depends on internally versus

externally, but I'll say internally,

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you're the CEO and externally you're

really just an educator and your job is

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to give a world class customer experience.

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Justin Norris: It's a really interesting

way to position it and when you

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say selling to the average person

they think of somebody convincing

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persuading like you're really trying

to sell me on this my observation

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is that often actually doesn't work.

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Well, at least in the world of b2b sales

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Brian LaManna: I definitely don't

think of my role as convincing.

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I think sometimes there's

areas of learning about

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their business and offering.

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Maybe a point of view that they've never

considered before or how a different

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customer is thinking about it that you've

spoken to recently, but I'm not really

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going into the purpose of Hey, how do

I convince them to buy this product?

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It's really true that I'm trying to

understand about their challenges,

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their business, their unique

setup, how they're trying to solve

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for some of those issues today.

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And then educate them around our

solution and give them all the

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best information to make a decision

if it's worth further exploring

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Justin Norris: I find a lot people are

inherently defensive of a sales process.

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I know I often am as like a buyer,

you know, because you come into it

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and there's almost this dance that

you do between buyers and sellers.

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Do you have any ways that you

sort of diffuse that as you start

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a new relationship with a buyer?

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Brian LaManna: Yes.

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I think a lot of it comes back to not

trying to fit the buyer into your rigid

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sales process of, Hey, this is step one.

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This is step two.

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This is step three, which really makes

it all about the seller and your company.

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I try to go into every conversation

thinking of potential next steps.

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That aren't just a value to me as the

seller, but are a value to them and

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their journey of where they're at within

their process and what I've learned.

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So I think the way I try to always

think about it is just a small example.

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But if I had a meeting with you today,

Justin, and we walk through a demo,

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instead of saying, Hey, our next step

in the process is to get your vice

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president looped into the conversation.

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That's important part of our

process to get exact buy in.

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That's all about you, right?

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As the seller, you want to make sure

you're framing things more for them.

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And just a little verbiage really matters.

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Hey, Justin, we're super

excited to get your buy in.

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I'm glad you're really

excited about the tool.

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I know you mentioned earlier, someone

like your VP would be a really pivotal

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stakeholder in making this decision.

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In addition to yours, how

could we earn her perspective?

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What are your thoughts on that in

terms of a way to further this email?

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So just little framing like that

and making it more about them and

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the buyer at the end of the day

versus like Your sales methodology

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or your sales stages and your CRM,

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Justin Norris: and what you just

said makes total sense to me.

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And yet, you know, and we'll get a little

of this when we talk about the ops side

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of things, but there are frameworks,

there are playbooks that people.

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Expect you to follow I've noticed

this about good sellers that I've

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worked with or even like really good

BDRs If there's a step that isn't

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quite right or like a subject line

of an email that isn't quite right.

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They'll go around it They'll fix it.

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They'll deviate a bit from the playbook

do you sort of ask for forgiveness rather

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than permission about those things, if

it's a step it's in your playbook, but it

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doesn't make sense for the buyer Or how do

you navigate those conflicting pressures?

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Brian LaManna: it is tricky.

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It's a good word for it.

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I think with most things, I kind of

an 80 20 rule, I'm like, Hey, the

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framework's good in most situations,

maybe 80 percent or 90%, but there's

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always those exceptions, so I think

a lot of the frameworks and processes

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are still really good to have.

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I think, especially as you continue

on with your own sales career, and

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you start to develop kind of a gut

feel of like where things should

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head or what would make sense in

terms of the logical next best step.

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I think you slowly start to trust

that gut feeling more and more.

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And that gut feeling, what I've learned is

that it's typically pretty buyer centric.

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At the end of the day, you have

that gut feeling that maybe that

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isn't the next best step for them

because of something they shared.

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And I'm really not afraid to

veer away from our process.

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If at the end of the day, I feel

like that's the the next best step

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to advance that evaluation for them.

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Definitely

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Justin Norris: guess if you

have a close one opportunity,

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then everything is forgiven.

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a lot of process deviations can

be forgiven if you close the deal.

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You talked about intuition.

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That's maybe like a good segue into

how somebody becomes great at sales.

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Or really.

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The question I wrote down here

is a good seller born or made?

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Meaning yes, obviously everyone requires

training, but do you feel that some people

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have that special knack, you know, the way

someone's great at like baseball or hockey

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or any other discipline in life, or is

it something that anybody with the right

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sort of effort and training could acquire

that level of proficiency in That's

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Brian LaManna: a strong perspective on

this, a strong seller is made, not born.

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I think you might have natural tendencies

that, you know, you were raised with

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more business acumen or more curiosity.

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But I think when a lot of people think

of someone that was like born for sales.

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To me, I almost think of like a

used car salesman type of person.

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It was like a huge talker and

really convincing and over the top.

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And at least in my experience with like

B2B software sales and like more strategic

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mid market enterprise strat type deals.

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It's really not about how much you

talk and how much you convince.

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It's about how much you're willing to

learn, how much you're willing to prep,

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how much you're willing to listen, how

much you're willing to learn from others

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around you that have done that role

and have, you know, landed successful

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wins and being able to study them and

emulate what's working and what's not.

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I think like any other role, like

in sales, like when you first start

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as a sales development rep, or

you first started as an accounting

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executive, like If there's a hundred

sales development reps and you just

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start, like you're the worst when

you start that's just how it is.

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Like you don't come in there and

immediately crush it from week one

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or at least, 80, 20 rule, right?

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99 percent of people likely don't,

you have to be okay with failing.

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You have to be okay with continuing

to go after it and get a little

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bit better every single day.

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just keep learning around.

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Those are from around you.

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You're not gonna be good at it right away.

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And there's a reason why most revenue

orgs, as a result, give most sellers

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a ramp period so that they can adjust

over 3 months, 4 months, 5 months, and

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they don't have the pressure of quota.

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From the second they, they start,

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Justin Norris: You mentioned about being

okay with failing and it's interesting,

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one of my first jobs was at a company.

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They sold a hiring software, but baked

into that software was a psychometric

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assessment that was essentially

there to make people do a little

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test when they applied for a job.

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And then they looked at the qualities

that they had and compared them to the

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profile of a great performer in that role.

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And so we had these like great

performer, almost like archetypal

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psychological profiles of people

and for sales, one of the key.

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Personality traits that predicted

success was recovery from setbacks

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or the, that ability to fail.

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Do you think there are these sort of

key attributes in your experience that

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people need to have it intrinsically?

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Some people are not okay with being

rejected, you know, having a phone

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slammed on them, that sort of thing.

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Like maybe that's an obvious one.

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Are there things like that or others?

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Brian LaManna: yeah, I think sales

definitely isn't made for everyone.

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I think if you're out there listening and

you're not in sales considering maybe a

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career in it, like the certain attributes

that I think can make a successful seller

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is someone that's resilient, someone

that's curious, someone that's a learner,

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someone that's willing to lean in and

just try to get better each and every day.

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The highs are really high in sales.

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When you have a really great week or a

really great month, you can earn a lot.

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The lows can be really low.

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I think most sellers at some point

within their first few years are like,

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why the heck am I doing what I'm doing?

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This is really hard.

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This is challenging.

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Am I made for this?

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And you get a lot of

imposter syndrome quickly.

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So that's all natural as well.

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So it does come back

to the resiliency and.

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I think there is a competitive nature

to it that typically fits pretty well

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from ex athletes, whether it's, even

high school or middle school just being

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able to compete with others on your

team, but at the same time, you're

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one team, you're all kind of marching

towards the same goal of, success.

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So, it's a challenging question, but

I think a lot of those traits there

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are just, what's going to make a

seller when they do come into an org.

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Justin Norris: And you mentioned

about thinking of yourself as the

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CEO of your own book of business.

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And not everybody takes that mindset.

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Is that something that's kind

of been inherent for you?

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Is that something you learned like

from a mentor, from observation,

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where did that come from?

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Brian LaManna: Yeah, I think I learned

in my first role just seeing some

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of the other folks that were really

successful that were, you know, six

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months ahead of where I was at, or

a year ahead of me in my career.

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One of the books they recommended we read.

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It was called Extreme Ownership, so I

probably had that ingrained in me pretty

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early on, but really the emphasis on that

piece is just take extreme ownership.

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Sorry to use the title, but of

everything that you're doing, if

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you have a bad day, own up to it.

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If you have a great day, know

that it's, due to the success and

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the hard work that you've put in.

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And if you just have that extreme

ownership mentality in sales, I think

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it's really important because there's so

many different competing priorities that

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at any point as an account executive,

as an example, you might sometimes

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get inbound opportunities where they

come to you and request a demo, or you

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have a really good sales development

rep that's sending you meetings.

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And sometimes it's pretty easy to take

your foot off the pedal and be like.

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Oh, I'm just going to wait for that

next good inbound opportunity, or my

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SDR needs to send me more good ones.

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That's never the mentality that I've

seen the most successful sellers have.

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They really think about everything

in terms of their targets and

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their goals, and they create a path

that's not dependent on hitting

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the inbound lottery or relying on

someone else to also be successful.

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And if you really have that mentality

through everything you do, through active

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opportunities, through creating new ones.

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You'll really set yourself

up for a lot more success

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Justin Norris: It was kind of really

like a problem solving mentality.

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But applied to you're like,

how am I going to get to quota?

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I need to have multiple paths.

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I need to focus on multiple

things, that sort of thing.

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it's going to sound like I'm stereotyping

or painting with a very broad brush

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and that's not what I mean to do.

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I'm just sort of generalizing

some broad experience.

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Cause I, I worked with a lot of different

sellers, like also as a partner to some

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pretty big enterprise software companies.

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And I found that there were good, or at

least very successful sellers that were.

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I don't know how else to say

this, like mildly sociopathic,

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the sense that they were good at

asking you for what they needed.

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And once they had what they needed,

it's like you were gone, like

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they could kind of turn it on.

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But then you were discarded as

someone who was there to help them.

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But the really great

sellers were not like that.

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They were highly likable and they're

very good at making you feel valued.

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cultivating a real relationship.

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How important is that ability to

forge a connection with people.

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Brian LaManna: I, guess to some

degree I can, and I've seen it

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as well, I can understand the

extent of, Hey, I sold the deal.

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I'm done with it.

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It's in someone else's

hands type of mentality.

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And they do break that up, right?

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There is a reason it gets assigned to

somebody on the customer team who owns

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that relationship and specializes in that.

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But I think if you have that really

genuine, like curiosity through the

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entire cycle, and you're trying to take

that approach of solving real business

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problems that have a material impact on

their bottom and their top line, like

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I'm never done the day I sell a deal.

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Like I'm the type of AE that's

messaging them on text a week later

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saying, how was implementation?

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How was the first call?

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Hey, do you want me to join the next call?

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A month later asking like how

they're starting to map back

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to some of the outcomes that we

talked through the sales process.

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And I think that's really important.

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I can give one example as well.

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When I first joined Gong, one of the

first new business deals I worked

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was with a company called Teach Town.

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And I really clicked with a

lot of the different business

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leaders that I was working with.

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They had a lot of different maybe not

challenges, but like opportunities

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that they were driving towards in

terms of some of their growth that,

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they forecast in their business.

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And there were a lot of really

unique ways that Gong could help.

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When I did eventually sign them

up as a customer and they chose to

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partner with us continued working

with them for the next six months.

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I actually spoke at their internal

sales kickoff a year later

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and flew out to Washington DC.

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Strictly for fun not being paid, just

had a chance to talk through some

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of the different outcomes, some of

the different insights that we were

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able to work through and achieve.

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And then dating into this year,

I've actually spoken with them a

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couple of times this week already

about some different things.

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And you just start to forge and

build some of those relationships.

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And it's been really helpful for me

in other ways to, I've seen other.

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Customers that are connected to folks

at that company and they're able to give

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things like references and testimonials

to, all the success that they've had.

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So it does benefit you

as well in the long term.

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That's not why you do it

or why you should do it.

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But good to have that approach

and not just think of something as

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linear as you either won the deal or

you lost the deal and you're done.

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Justin Norris: to this question,

but you know, when I look

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at your LinkedIn profile.

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posted some amazing numbers like, don't

know, 276 percent of quota really

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just hitting it out of the park and, you

seem to have had that pattern of success

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over a period of time and presumably

not everybody on your team are reaching

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those numbers are generally speaking,

you know, there's not that distribution.

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what are your secrets basically if

a new rep come to you is like Brian

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I just want to learn to be just

like you give me your mindsets.

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Give me your routines your strategies.

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What advice would you give them?

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Brian LaManna: Preface with

there's no one silver bullet.

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There's nothing that's going to

replace the hard work that you

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need to put into your deals,

your pipeline, your prospecting.

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I very rarely met a top seller that is

not working at least 40 hours a week.

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in essence, the extra time you put in,

you are getting rewarded for it and paid

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for it just in the form of commissions

and recognition and other pieces as well.

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But at the same time, like I'm

not a seller, I'm not putting

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in 50 plus hours a week.

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I'm really efficient in

terms of everything I do.

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I think for me, the overarching

theme is actually time management.

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I'm really meticulous with how I spend.

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my eight to five per se on a day

to day basis, Justin when you asked

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:

me about different podcast times,

I told you, Hey, I'm down to do it,

332

:

but it's gotta be outside of hours.

333

:

I'm really meticulous within hours.

334

:

The first thing I always try to prioritize

advancing pipeline in any way, and

335

:

the second piece is creating pipeline.

336

:

And if what's on my calendar doesn't

align to one of those two things,

337

:

I'm pretty allergic to all and any

meetings that don't need to be meetings.

338

:

Otherwise I do think it's important

to have one on ones and skill

339

:

development and things like that.

340

:

But I want to make sure as much of

my time as possible is spent in those

341

:

two buckets of creating pipeline and

advancing pipeline, because that's

342

:

really what's going to help you not just

hit your number, but over exceed it.

343

:

There's a lot of things within those

two buckets that, I do that might

344

:

be a little bit more unique or a

little bit more advanced that I

345

:

picked up on or developed over time.

346

:

I do believe overall, what I refer

to as like differentiated selling,

347

:

it's just little silver bullets or

little nuggets that are going to.

348

:

Set you apart as a seller versus your

competition and, your competition

349

:

sellers that you're in essence

up against in different deals.

350

:

And I do believe there's a series of

practices from everything from how

351

:

you prepare to how you follow up to

creating things like mutual success

352

:

plans and how you build business cases.

353

:

That at the end of the day,

we'll just give your buyer an

354

:

exceptional, unbelievable experience.

355

:

And at the end of the day, you

can be the differentiator in your

356

:

deals to have more turn closed one.

357

:

So I'm definitely a big believer in

that, but I really start with if I was

358

:

talking to a brand new seller, it starts

with time management, using it really

359

:

effectively and maximizing your own

production within those first two buckets.

360

:

Justin Norris: such a common like

almost universal answer when I ask this

361

:

question to high performing people It's

like the number one thing let's dive

362

:

a little bit deeper, you sit down,

you went into the office today, you

363

:

were mentioning, sit down at the desk,

open the laptop, advancing pipeline.

364

:

Presumably you're looking at

a list of opportunities that

365

:

are already, at various stages.

366

:

Look at the first one what's the mindset?

367

:

What do I need to do?

368

:

Do I need to reach out?

369

:

Do, how do you think about that?

370

:

Brian LaManna: Yeah, I do

the same thing every day.

371

:

And the reason why I have a

framework built around, I've

372

:

done the same thing every day for

the last five years religiously.

373

:

I've not missed one day

weekdays, of course.

374

:

The reason why I have

this framework is because.

375

:

I want to make sure that I'm prioritizing

those two buckets that I just shared

376

:

of advancing pipeline and creating

pipeline because those are the two

377

:

biggest pieces that will get me to

my numbers, my targets, president's

378

:

club, my earnings goals, et cetera.

379

:

So the first thing that I do when I

open up my laptop, it's not check Slack.

380

:

It's not check my email.

381

:

It's not go on LinkedIn.

382

:

The first thing I do is I go to gong,

I pull up my deal board and I go

383

:

through my opportunities one by one.

384

:

If you don't have gong, you can use

Salesforce or HubSpot, your opportunity

385

:

list, whatever that looks like.

386

:

I go through one by one.

387

:

And if I have an account with

Justin Norris and an active

388

:

opportunity, I simply ask myself,

Hey, I've got this deal with Justin.

389

:

My next meeting is Friday.

390

:

Is there anything I can do today,

Wednesday, March 13th to advance

391

:

this deal in any way, shape or form?

392

:

Could I shoot him a note

from our last conversation?

393

:

Could I add him on LinkedIn

to get him to think about me

394

:

and my company for a second?

395

:

I'm trying to add value and sell

between meetings in any way.

396

:

To get him to think about Gong

and Brian Lamanna for a minute

397

:

or two in a favorable light.

398

:

So I go through my active opportunities,

build out that to do list of any value

399

:

touches that I want to get out to that

day to continue driving the deal forward.

400

:

After I build that to do list,

I carve out typically around 45

401

:

minutes and I mow that list down.

402

:

Might be send six emails.

403

:

It might be prep for

two meetings that day.

404

:

It might be update CRM for X, Y,

and Z, and I get all of those tasks

405

:

done for that advancing pipeline.

406

:

And ideally then it's

it's 845 in the morning.

407

:

And then I have the rest of the

day with just my meetings and

408

:

then whitespace in my calendar.

409

:

Any whitespace I have left in my calendar,

I treat that as prospecting time.

410

:

So if I have 10am to 11am open, I

then block that off same day and

411

:

I say, Hey, I have an hour free.

412

:

What should I do from that second bucket

prospecting to get after it today?

413

:

And I try to get really specific.

414

:

So instead of just saying prospecting,

I say, Make 17 dials or get

415

:

three new accounts in sequence

or multi thread X, Y, and Z.

416

:

I found it's easier to follow through and

just track that discipline when you're

417

:

Setting more specific targets for yourself

rather than broad and then the last step

418

:

is just the discipline of hey Whatever

you set out to do that day Execute on it

419

:

when something else pops up at 10 30 a.

420

:

m.

421

:

And you get that slack message Too bad.

422

:

Unless it's absolutely urgent.

423

:

I said, I was going to make those 17 calls

and I'm going to go ahead and execute it.

424

:

So really trying to eliminate

like context switching within

425

:

my days, do things in chunk.

426

:

I'm not on Slack all day.

427

:

I typically just check it once or twice.

428

:

And I'm trying to really just

deeply and effectively make

429

:

every minute of the day count.

430

:

Justin Norris: in those touches

where you're trying to add value.

431

:

and you can be honest about this.

432

:

I'm just curious.

433

:

What's the Relationship with

your marketing team do you find

434

:

that those assets that marketing

creates are valuable for you?

435

:

Can you leverage those things?

436

:

Is there a mutual support there

437

:

Brian LaManna: Yes.

438

:

Our marketing team is amazing and the

assets they create are tremendous.

439

:

What I'll say is for listeners

out there that might not have

440

:

the, marketing team of a gong.

441

:

I don't think you need that to be

successful or sell between the meetings.

442

:

The most common way I'm going

to sell between the meetings and

443

:

add value is just, and I would re

listen if our last call was Monday.

444

:

I'm going to pull up our call.

445

:

I'm going to find some soundbite,

some question you asked, and maybe

446

:

you said Oh, what is your Salesforce

integration look like, or do you have

447

:

any testimonials on your product?

448

:

I'm going to find some nugget that

you shared and tie that back to

449

:

some resource that I can send you.

450

:

And the note I'm going to

send you is really short.

451

:

It's just my, Hey, Justin, just relisten

to our call from Monday and heard you ask

452

:

about our integration with Salesforce.

453

:

Here's a two minute video.

454

:

Can't wait to speak Friday.

455

:

It's short.

456

:

It's concise.

457

:

It's adding value.

458

:

You're not giving them homework.

459

:

You're not badgering them with questions.

460

:

You're just simply trying to

add value and advance the deal.

461

:

Based on something they already told

you that they were curious about 80 to

462

:

90 percent of the time that's going to

be one of my touches just leveraging

463

:

the previous conversation we had.

464

:

Justin Norris: You're very good at, you

know, eating your own dog food in terms of

465

:

using your own tool to help you succeed.

466

:

How much of a boost do

you feel that gives you?

467

:

How much harder would it be if you weren't

selling a tool like gong that you can

468

:

have this virtuous circle where it's

really being used in the process itself?

469

:

Brian LaManna: Yeah, I genuinely,

I vehemently will not work for a

470

:

company that doesn't have Gong because

it helps me that much as a seller.

471

:

That being said, if I was a seller at

another org, I don't think you need

472

:

going to do anything I just shared.

473

:

Like you can pull up an opportunity list

and Salesforce review them one by one.

474

:

You can record your call

on zoom or Google meet it.

475

:

You know, transcription is not helping

me that much to find a nugget like that.

476

:

So I don't think it's absolutely

critical in those pieces.

477

:

I think where probably my Kool Aid

drinking comes in is it just makes

478

:

it really easy in my day when I.

479

:

Review my deals through one system.

480

:

I prospect through one system.

481

:

I get coached through one system.

482

:

I'm really just using two solutions.

483

:

I use Salesforce and I use Gong

and it just cuts down like my tech

484

:

sprawl and my fatigue going between a

million different systems and having

485

:

to learn like new tools constantly.

486

:

Justin Norris: So I want to turn to

some terrain that may be sensitive.

487

:

And I'm really curious.

488

:

I participated as I mentioned

earlier, as a, not quite a seller,

489

:

but at least a copilot to a seller.

490

:

And then I also interacted with

salespeople a lot as an ops person,

491

:

as a revenue operations professional.

492

:

And that relationship can be difficult,

not necessarily referring to my own

493

:

team, just, out in the marketplace.

494

:

I think ops people view salespeople

as these difficult to control,

495

:

cats that you need to herd,

you're trying to get them to.

496

:

Follow a process you're trying to get

them to update the CRM to update their

497

:

pipeline can be frustrating and sales

people I'm guessing probably one video

498

:

actually from corporate, bro Where he

had a sales ops persona It was like you

499

:

didn't update, you know The value of

your opportunity to the tenth decimal

500

:

place like these kind of pedantic Process

obsessed people that are just focused on

501

:

the wrong things that you're just trying

to close business So anyways, that's

502

:

the impression I pulled from that video.

503

:

So I'm just curious to unpack

this relationship a little bit.

504

:

How does sellers view sales ops

and then maybe more productively?

505

:

How can sales ops actually,

work with sales more effectively

506

:

from a seller's point of view?

507

:

Brian LaManna: really great

question and a great topic.

508

:

So what I'll share is

not specific to Gong.

509

:

We love our revenue operations team.

510

:

They don't really make us fill out

pretty much anything in Salesforce.

511

:

Cause we rely so much on the

conversational data to drive

512

:

our forecasts and driver deals.

513

:

So that's probably a big piece of why

I like working at Gong too is I'm not

514

:

filling out much of anything in CRM.

515

:

I think it is a delicate balance, right?

516

:

Because if you just look at like stats,

that Forrester puts out 77 percent

517

:

of sellers time in 2023 was spent on

non revenue generating activities.

518

:

That's 77%.

519

:

So only 23 percent was spent doing

what sellers do best, which is

520

:

selling or prospecting or being in

customer meetings or things like that.

521

:

That's super, super alarming.

522

:

So I think on one hand, it is the role

of revenue operations to remove some of

523

:

those obstacles and barriers from sellers.

524

:

From having to do admin related tasks

that candidly add absolutely zero

525

:

value to anything that they're doing.

526

:

And their primary job at the end

of the day is to drive revenue.

527

:

On the other hand of it, it's the job

of sales to understand there's certain

528

:

foundational pieces needed to run plan

and forecast an effective business

529

:

to continue to drive it forward.

530

:

And if you're not creating an opportunity

in the first place, or it's in the

531

:

complete wrong stage, or it's a

million dollar opportunity, but you're

532

:

purposely putting it at 50k because

you don't want the visibility to do it.

533

:

Like you're part of the problem too.

534

:

And you need to have that

extreme ownership of doing

535

:

at least the bare minimum.

536

:

That they're asking.

537

:

I think a lot of it just comes down

to like understanding of each other

538

:

and each other's roles and each

other's goals, sales at the end

539

:

of the day, what we're comped on

isn't how well we fill out a CRM.

540

:

That's not how we're promoted either.

541

:

That's not how we're paid.

542

:

So, it is a little bit challenging

sometimes, and I think it's

543

:

important to have that lens.

544

:

And, what revenue operations is there to

do is to make really efficient processes

545

:

to bring better data, better reporting,

to make sure that the business is

546

:

humming on all cylinders and it's not

possible without that mutual partnership.

547

:

So, maybe not a perfect answer there,

but there's definitely a lot of overlap

548

:

as you think about that Venn diagram.

549

:

And some mutual goals will both

benefit each other as well.

550

:

Justin Norris: think about a little bit

is, obviously everyone who's doing their

551

:

job properly has the same objective in

the sense that they're there to increase

552

:

revenue, they're there to improve the

performance of the business, the way

553

:

they go about that is obviously, quite

different and sellers are very focused

554

:

on doing it in a particular local

context of like their book of business,

555

:

the deals that they're working on.

556

:

Rev Ops, ideally is taking a bit of a

broader view and we need opportunities

557

:

to be updated because we need

predictability in the forecast and we

558

:

need to be able to make decisions and

we need to be able to manage pipeline.

559

:

We need X, Y, Z to be updated because,

you know, sometimes there's feedback loops

560

:

to other teams like marketing, which is

ultimately going to bring in the pipeline.

561

:

it's a longer term view.

562

:

It's planting seeds and, in

the spring that are going to

563

:

be harvested later in the year.

564

:

And.

565

:

I guess what I'm wondering is if I

need to get a seller to do something

566

:

that isn't necessarily going to

benefit them today in that way, but

567

:

that is important for the business.

568

:

Like it's, I'm not just doing

something pedantic that's silly.

569

:

What's the best way from your

point of view to communicate

570

:

that and get sellers on board?

571

:

Cause I think a lot of RevOps

professionals struggle with that.

572

:

We have our strategies but it's

probably a constant frustration,

573

:

at least from our side of the

fence of Oh, how can I just get.

574

:

It's just a way for the sellers

to follow a simple process.

575

:

Brian LaManna: I think the framing

of it like earlier in the episode, we

576

:

talked about framing in terms of like

next steps and you're not just telling

577

:

the buyer, Hey, we need next steps.

578

:

Important to us and it's critical and

you just have to do a type of thing.

579

:

What's your calendar look like?

580

:

I think the same thing rev ops framing

for sales and why it will ultimately

581

:

benefit them more at the end of the day.

582

:

And just pulling through an example

of like, maybe how we've used that

583

:

data that you all were able to support

to make a decision as an example,

584

:

you know, Hey sellers, because the

team was so good about filling.

585

:

the marketing source out

for how they heard about us.

586

:

We learned that we're getting

way more from organic search

587

:

in terms of our inbound.

588

:

We actually hired an additional SEO

manager because we learned our attribution

589

:

is so heavy from organic search.

590

:

That's how people are finding us.

591

:

So people are finding our

product and our market.

592

:

We brought in that SEO manager and

over the past year now, we've doubled

593

:

our inbound from organic, which has

brought all of you even more demo

594

:

requests to your book of accounts.

595

:

So I think just giving like a tie

through and a follow through of from

596

:

them updating a field to a business

decision that was made and then

597

:

closing the loop back to them and now

it's going to help them hit their.

598

:

Revenue and their numbers.

599

:

I'll be the first to admit it.

600

:

I think a lot of sellers are selfish,

me included, and they're thinking

601

:

about their own priorities, goals,

and sometimes they're under a lot of

602

:

stress to, to hit those and they're

thinking about those first and foremost.

603

:

Justin Norris: Anything in particular,

like focusing on the good as well

604

:

that your ROA ops team does today,

or that you've experienced that you

605

:

really like, that's really helpful.

606

:

You know, that other teams could emulate.

607

:

Brian LaManna: They remove

a lot of barriers for us.

608

:

They like to share and highlight

when they've been able to

609

:

automate different things.

610

:

So as an example, you know, with Gong,

we're able to pick up if a competitor

611

:

is mentioned in a conversation.

612

:

So instead of having to flag each time

now in Salesforce that they brought

613

:

up our competitor Acme, we're able

to automatically trigger a field via

614

:

an automation and take another step.

615

:

So I think they like to

highlight some of those wins.

616

:

In terms of what they can bring, they

highlight a lot of like transparency

617

:

to around like how territories are cut

how accounts are divvied up to make it

618

:

really fair and between different sellers

where they'll join all hands or join,

619

:

go to market meetings and peel back the

curtain for like how they gave Brian his

620

:

territory versus Justin's and all the work

and all the hard effort that goes behind.

621

:

And I think that builds up a lot of

Respect just with seeing that kind of

622

:

transparency forward and gives it an

open forum as well that if anyone does

623

:

have questions about it or concerns,

like they have an open space to ask that

624

:

doesn't just involve setting up a meeting

with them, sending them a slack message.

625

:

Justin Norris: I will say one of the

first things that got me into ops

626

:

and like really made me enjoy it was.

627

:

Working closely with a sales team and just

getting requests about how to improve the

628

:

efficiency of their user experience in the

CRM and Oh, could we, make this like this?

629

:

Could we make this a different color?

630

:

Could you help me more productive?

631

:

And being able to deliver those

features and then just feeling

632

:

like the love flow back when you

help make their lives easier.

633

:

That's a really virtuous circle

as well of like increasing

634

:

productivity, increasing trust.

635

:

So I think, that's like

a happy path to take.

636

:

And then maybe you get them to

update a few things for you as

637

:

well as like the payback for that.

638

:

Talking a little bit about

sales work structure.

639

:

You know, You mentioned prospecting.

640

:

I know there's a lot of teams

where the AE is still prospecting.

641

:

It's not prospecting.

642

:

I saw an interesting take the other day

that like, you know, if you're an AE who's

643

:

prospecting, you're wasting your time.

644

:

It should be closing.

645

:

So there's kind of a debate on this.

646

:

What's your point of view and

sort of justification for why

647

:

that's important for you to do?

648

:

Brian LaManna: I think it's

critical to some degree.

649

:

I think there is a balance, right?

650

:

I don't think you would want.

651

:

Really tremendous a year, closer

type person to spend, you know,

652

:

35 hours of their week prospecting

because, you know, inbound isn't

653

:

there supporting or you know, you have

no SDR support or things like that.

654

:

It does really just depend on the

type of organization and their like

655

:

go to market structure in terms of

what will be the best fit for them?

656

:

Having a more SDRs, having

more full cycle sellers.

657

:

I take pride in it.

658

:

I think when I was in SDR, I was dying

to get to an account executive because

659

:

I was like, I just want to close deals.

660

:

I don't want to prospect anymore.

661

:

was making a hundred plus, dials a

day at that point and email blasting

662

:

everyone on my list and shit like that

worked back then as well to some degree.

663

:

So, I was ready to be over it

and just be on the closing side.

664

:

And I think I learned pretty

quickly after the like.

665

:

Going back to what I shared earlier,

if you just sit back and wait for

666

:

opportunities only to come to you,

like your path to success at that

667

:

point is pretty much fully dependent on

marketing and maybe sales development.

668

:

And I want to make sure that I have

a path to my own financial goals,

669

:

my own, career progression, my own

recognition at my company that isn't

670

:

fully reliant on different people

that I just don't have control of.

671

:

So I think it comes back

to extreme ownership.

672

:

At the end of the day, if they're going

to put accounts in my name, I'm going

673

:

to work them to the fullest extent.

674

:

There's always more you can be doing

in terms of And as an AE I could

675

:

work a hundred hours this week and

still have more accounts I could

676

:

be hitting and prospects I could

be touching and things like that.

677

:

So at a certain point there are like

diminishing returns for what is worth it

678

:

and how much work you do want to put in.

679

:

But I try to make

prospecting a daily habit.

680

:

My overall philosophy on it's I do a

little every day, so you never have

681

:

to do a lot and you're never way

behind I try to at least touch two

682

:

to three accounts every single day.

683

:

no matter if it's just 15 minutes of

work, it pays off in the long run.

684

:

Justin Norris: It's kind of like eating

your vegetables, if you don't like

685

:

vegetables, but like doing that thing

that you know is good for you and you do

686

:

it in appropriate doses on a daily basis.

687

:

do you feel as long as you're in I.

688

:

C.

689

:

no matter, What level of the hierarchy

you're at, you'll still do it or do you

690

:

think there's a time and place where

a seller, like someone really should

691

:

just be closing and focused in that

way and not worried about that anymore?

692

:

Brian LaManna: will always prospect and

I'm on the record now saying it as well.

693

:

So you can play this clip back, but

694

:

I take pride in being a full cycle seller

and I put pressure on myself to live up

695

:

to that identity as someone that can not

just close pipeline, but create pipeline.

696

:

And it's another lever that I have,

if I'm behind on my month or on my

697

:

quarter, because I'm always prospecting

and I'm sharp in that degree.

698

:

If I need to put an extra

couple hours in that week, cause

699

:

I'm really low on pipeline.

700

:

I can pull that lever.

701

:

Cause I know I have it.

702

:

I know I'm.

703

:

Not rusty or haven't done this in months.

704

:

But I loved your point, Justin you

know, it's like eating your vegetables.

705

:

And I think that's the hardest

part I've learned is I've started

706

:

working larger deals and move more

up market as a seller is like.

707

:

revenue lags, hard work, the hard work

I put in this morning into prospecting,

708

:

this new account, I won't see a dime

of result from that maybe ever, but

709

:

at least for two or three months,

and you've got to be okay with that.

710

:

you have to invest in

playing that long game.

711

:

Because suddenly, know, I'll be turning

around in June or July putting in my

712

:

forecast and I'll probably be forecasting

some deal that, I put in the work on

713

:

a Tuesday or Wednesday morning when

I, I easily could have said screw it

714

:

Justin Norris: So do you still work

with SDRs in your current role or

715

:

at Gong it's just you know, the full

cycle AEs and everyone does that job?

716

:

Brian LaManna: It's changed over

my two and a half years here.

717

:

Currently we do have SDR support.

718

:

We're in SDR is helping like three

different account executives.

719

:

So you definitely can't rely on

them to make sure you have your

720

:

pipeline coverage in and of itself.

721

:

I also have just seen, because, I know

my accounts exceptionally well, and what

722

:

would make a good fit for Gong and giving

them an even better buying experience

723

:

instead of talking to another rep and

then it being a handoff to, you know,

724

:

another rep and some context being lost.

725

:

Like.

726

:

From first reach out through the entirety

of a cycle, I've noticed my win rates are

727

:

much higher and it's extra motivating when

I know my self source close rate was like

728

:

34 percent last year in 2023 and then non

self sources, it's a little bit below 25%.

729

:

So if I know one of every three

opportunities I generate is going to turn

730

:

into closed one revenue, like I guess I

would ask a seller at my org or anywhere

731

:

else, like who wouldn't want a prospect?

732

:

I

733

:

Justin Norris: Makes sense to me.

734

:

So we've gone into the outbound topic.

735

:

There's a lot of debate out there.

736

:

I think this year in particular, a

lot of people talking about how, the

737

:

predictable revenue model doesn't

work anymore, doesn't work the same.

738

:

I've lived that to a degree.

739

:

I mean, I've been significantly

involved, not as a seller, but as

740

:

an ops person, helping stand up an

outbound motion and going through

741

:

those trials and tribulations.

742

:

And even just over the last

few years, I've seen how

743

:

that market's gotten tougher.

744

:

What's your point of view on outbound?

745

:

Are the people saying it's dying,

just not good at it, or have the

746

:

conditions actually really changed?

747

:

Brian LaManna: people that are saying

it, or at least the people that I

748

:

see say it, are mostly on LinkedIn,

and they're mostly writing that as

749

:

their hook, that cold calling his

dad, or email his dad, or XYZ his dad.

750

:

I think it makes for a really great

catchy headline, but that's just not

751

:

the experience I've seen, or I sell

the revenue leaders every day at gong

752

:

and their revenue organization is

talking to us about outbound and being

753

:

more efficient and generating pipeline

all the way through your clothes.

754

:

And that's not what we're hearing either.

755

:

I think the tactics and the

approach has absolutely changed.

756

:

I mean, if you just rewind 5 years.

757

:

Five years ago, I was, calling people at

their desk, their direct lines, because

758

:

people were 100 percent in the office.

759

:

We were blasting people's emails.

760

:

Reply rates were around

percent back in:

761

:

It felt low to me back in the day.

762

:

That's really freaking high looking back

763

:

this

764

:

Justin Norris: killed for 6%.

765

:

Brian LaManna: Yeah, I

would die for 6 percent now.

766

:

So I think the approach has had

to change with AI and robo callers

767

:

and email blasting tools and

stuff like that, I can't really

768

:

don't think it benefits anyone.

769

:

But had to change into being more

human and your approach into using.

770

:

More introductions warm intros and partner

selling and really creative methods like

771

:

gifting or different types of emails that

like clearly make it seem like you did

772

:

your homework and it was a human wrote it.

773

:

And it wasn't just some generic

template that, you know,

774

:

chat GBT filled in for you.

775

:

So I think in a lot of ways, like

it's just made really good sellers

776

:

that we're good at prospecting, like.

777

:

Have an even bigger advantage to

some degree, and it's made really bad

778

:

prospecting people just scale what

they were doing, which was already

779

:

garbage, and it's not working.

780

:

Justin Norris: let's just take an

example then of what good can look

781

:

like, and I agree for the record

with everything that you just said.

782

:

Let's say you take me, we're already a

Gong customer at my company, but let's

783

:

say we weren't and you're like, all

right, Justin, he's an ops, maybe he is

784

:

going to be a buyer of Gong and he needs

call recording software for his reps.

785

:

What's the thought process look like?

786

:

How do you start crafting an email that's

going to feel relevant and not feel

787

:

like something I'm just going to delete?

788

:

Brian LaManna: Yeah,

that's a great question.

789

:

So like I shared earlier, I

am pretty big on frameworks.

790

:

I think it's in particular helpful

for email because there's certain

791

:

aspects that make for a strong email

in terms of the foundation of it.

792

:

But it's really easy as a seller.

793

:

If I'm writing an email to Justin Norris

to just suddenly get a bit of writer's

794

:

block, and if I want to personalize

it, suddenly it's 20 25 minutes in,

795

:

and I'm spending way too much time, and

candidly, you might not ever open it

796

:

or even see it, so there's got to be

a balance, right, between adding that

797

:

relevance and personalization and the

time that you're going to put into it.

798

:

So the first thing I do when I send an

email is I always look for a relevant

799

:

like business related observation.

800

:

So in your case, I would

go to 360 learning.

801

:

I would go to your website.

802

:

I would go to your home page, your blog.

803

:

I would type in 360 learning

into Google News as well.

804

:

And I'm trying to understand some like

new initiative that the team's focused

805

:

on, a new product, a new industry,

something new and that's a really

806

:

big focus that I can latch on to.

807

:

And ultimately tie how our solution

can help back to that initiative

808

:

and your role in particular.

809

:

So that's that first piece.

810

:

I'm trying to find an observation.

811

:

The second is I'm going to leverage your

title and share a problem that persona

812

:

typically faces back to that initiative.

813

:

So I might say, Hey, Directors of

marketing operations tell us that,

814

:

X, Y, Z becomes even more challenging

as you launch into new product,

815

:

I then frame up the different

benefits in terms of the solutions.

816

:

I'm not going to say Hey, Gong works by

doing feature X feature Y and feature Z

817

:

I'm going to frame it again in terms of

you and of saying, Hey, marketing leaders

818

:

will leverage a solution like Gong to.

819

:

unlock the voice of the customer in

that new industry I end up with a

820

:

really simple CTA, like ever heard of

us before, open to checking us out, just

821

:

something simple and like more casual.

822

:

And then I put a PS in there that

makes it screen that email was

823

:

only written to that individual.

824

:

So in your case, I might

say, Hey, Piaz, congrats.

825

:

I saw you just had your two year

anniversary with 360Learning.

826

:

Back in 2022, congrats

on all the success or PS.

827

:

I saw on the side, you actually

launched a podcast called Rev

828

:

Ops FM back in September of 2023.

829

:

I'll have to give an episode to listen.

830

:

So I'm making something really obvious.

831

:

So that Justin, when

you open up that email.

832

:

Often times buyers will scan the

very top and the very bottom.

833

:

I want you to know that it wasn't

Chad GPT and that it was Brian

834

:

And that you should take your time

now to actually read through it.

835

:

I,

836

:

Justin Norris: what you demonstrated

there and you wrote about this in a

837

:

LinkedIn post that I read the other day.

838

:

The difference between being

personalized and being highly relevant.

839

:

And you cited an example that was

really personalized, or you know, the

840

:

person's high school that they went

to, and the football team, whatever.

841

:

It was really specific stuff, but

it was no reason for them to care.

842

:

Versus things that are personalized, but

also highly relevant to that context.

843

:

And it's such an important distinction.

844

:

Because you can be really creepy and

detailed about someone but it doesn't

845

:

give them any reason to actually be

interested in what you have to say.

846

:

Brian LaManna: I love that you

read that and called it out too.

847

:

Cause again, if I'm writing this email

to you, I could probably put together

848

:

a really cool email from what you

put out on LinkedIn and your podcast.

849

:

Make it all about RevOps FM and

I could listen to an episode

850

:

and put all of that in an email.

851

:

But Justin, if you're a super busy guy.

852

:

And we have this software

on like, just making up a

853

:

marketing automation, who cares?

854

:

That's great that they did all their

research and you might smile at it or

855

:

laugh or say, Hey, that was a great email.

856

:

But if we're not legitimately helping

some problem or some initiative you're

857

:

working on, like, why would you invest

30 minutes of your time or for an hour?

858

:

other than to be nice, you would

say no, or at least I would,

859

:

and I'm an account executive.

860

:

I'm not a director like yourself.

861

:

So I think at the end of the

day, that's why that relevance

862

:

piece is really important.

863

:

That observation that I referenced,

it's always business related.

864

:

It's not specific to your hometown

or your college or your podcast.

865

:

It's something specific to.

866

:

Your role and likely something you're

working on from some really quick

867

:

research looking at 360 learning, your

website, Google news, things like that.

868

:

Justin Norris: I loved that post that

you made because I thought it, it

869

:

captured a really important distinction

that not a lot of people get and a

870

:

lot of people fall into that trap of

personalizing about things that don't

871

:

actually matter to business problems

versus aiming at being highly relevant.

872

:

So great read to anyone and I

will include a link to that post

873

:

in the show notes worth reading.

874

:

Maybe the last question we

have time for a bonus question.

875

:

you don't hear this

phrase very much anymore.

876

:

It almost sounds very dated, but I don't

know how many years ago, but there was

877

:

a lot of talk about like social selling

and sellers being on social media and

878

:

on LinkedIn and using that to sell.

879

:

And generally speaking in practice,

it's often been really cringey.

880

:

Like people not really coming into

a party and handing out all their

881

:

business cards or just behaving in

a way that doesn't really vibe with

882

:

that environment or just dMing people

on LinkedIn like that's social selling

883

:

and you I think have embodied a very

different approach You know, it's

884

:

been very successful on LinkedIn.

885

:

You have tens of thousands of followers.

886

:

I don't know the exact number Have

used it to build up, you know a Really

887

:

valuable like side business for yourself

at close one where you're selling

888

:

resources to other sellers How did

you get the knack of this and kind of

889

:

figure out the right way to do this?

890

:

Was it trial and error?

891

:

Was it just, again, something

that, you felt right away?

892

:

How did that work for you?

893

:

Brian LaManna: I wish I could tell you

that I just created this master plan

894

:

and I've just executed it to a tee.

895

:

Since I started posting, it was a little

less than two years ago, it was June of

896

:

2022, but It's the same thing as selling.

897

:

Like I just, it started

cause I was curious.

898

:

I saw some other sellers at Gong

and other companies that would

899

:

occasionally post on LinkedIn.

900

:

So I think it was June of 2022.

901

:

I decided to make a post about, some of my

highs and some of my lows from that week.

902

:

I started really small.

903

:

My, goal was to put myself

out there a little bit more.

904

:

I started once a week.

905

:

Then twice a week in terms of

posts and three times a week.

906

:

And they were starting to

gain a little bit of traction.

907

:

When I say a little bit of track, you

don't get 40 likes and some people

908

:

would comment on it this is so cool.

909

:

You know, where's this going?

910

:

You know, et cetera.

911

:

I think since then it's, you know,

I've continued to build on it, iterate.

912

:

I launched a newsletter, launched

a side business because of it.

913

:

But it's really helped in

terms of my role as well.

914

:

I've gone, not because I'm quote

unquote, social selling, like just DMing

915

:

people and expecting them to follow

me on LinkedIn or know my content.

916

:

I actually don't use it

at all for that at all.

917

:

I don't prospect at all from LinkedIn.

918

:

Candidly, cause I think DMs on LinkedIn

are just a absolute mess to try to

919

:

handle and manage, and I get a lot

of junk sent to me having founder

920

:

and CEO, and one of my titles where

I get, lead gen services about 30

921

:

times a day from all over the world.

922

:

So it

923

:

makes it a little bit

challenging to even use.

924

:

But it does help me in a really unique

way in which I'll add a lot of my

925

:

prospects on LinkedIn, and they're going

to just naturally start to see my name.

926

:

My company more, and it goes back

to the point we talked about 20

927

:

minutes in is I'm looking for ways

to continue to advance the deal.

928

:

If I have a meeting Monday and the next

meeting Friday, I don't want Justin

929

:

to go four days without thinking about

going once because you're super busy

930

:

and you have a million other projects

like they even see me on LinkedIn one.

931

:

So they see my company then

they might click on the page.

932

:

That's a win for me.

933

:

It's very hard to attribute directly

back to any form of success, but like

934

:

anything to continue to get my name

out there and have people think about

935

:

it, hopefully in a favorable light from

the different, like highs, lows, what's

936

:

working for me or what's not that I try

to be just really honest about on LinkedIn

937

:

is kind of my, public facing sales

journal in a way, to me, it's a huge win.

938

:

And it's not why I did what I did.

939

:

It's not, why I created it from the onset,

but it definitely has been a huge asset.

940

:

Justin Norris: Love all this.

941

:

Brian, thank you so much for

sharing your insights with us.

942

:

And everyone out there, you want

to learn more about how Brian does

943

:

what he does, you can head over to

closedwon.xyz it's got some resources

944

:

there that you can check out.

945

:

Brian, thank you so

much for being with us.

946

:

Brian LaManna: Thanks for having me.

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