Cassie Petrey, CEO and co-founder of social media/music management firm Crowd Surf, talks about starting a Backstreet Boys army at 12 years old, questioning Hillary Clinton, how hardware leads to social media change, the limitations of VR, advice on differentiating yourself in a crowded field, innovating new pay structures in the music and digital marketing industries, what the REAL hardest part of your job will be running a business, and the critical use of Sabrina the Teenage Witch in her workflow.

Well, hey, I really appreciate you being

here.

Of course..

So you obviously have such an incredible

background, especially for being, and I'm just gonna say

it, so young. So I kind of wanted to start there. One of

the things I read about your background is that when you were

12, you had 10,000 followers to a AOL accounts for the

Backstreet Boys.

Yeah, I would say like today's version of that

would be if I had a tick tock about an artist, or a Twitter

slash x, or Instagram account that was dedicated to an artist,

but we didn't have that at that time. So the way that a lot of

younger people who were big fans and like digital showed their

appreciation for the artists they love was by basically

making a newsletter, we all called them zine. So I had a

zine that I ran, and would curate several times a week and

send it out to you know, other people in the fandom who had

subscribed. And it was, it was a really good like, sort of

business learning experience for me, because I learned a lot

about the first thing you learned about when you run an

email list is about rules and regulations around spam. So in

order for me to be able to send that amount of emails out at

once, because at this time, we didn't have things like

MailChimp, and rules to send email us. So you would send it

from AOL, from the email account. And so I had to get

apply and like be on this, you know, be on a whitelist to be

allowed to do that. So I learned a lot about the rules of spam

and the internet at an early age because of that, but I'm really

grateful for that experience.

Okay, so I gotta put this in perspective, you're

12 What is that seventh grade?

Yeah, sixth, seventh grade is like when I

really really liked the Backstreet Boys, but beginning

of American Middle School.

That's a legit thing to like. When I was 12

years old, I was worried about making sure I had enough

hairspray for my bangs, got braces in the seventh grade, who

liked who. Where did this come from? Just talk to me about

that.

I think that I get a lot of actually this

interest in technology from my grandfather, I lived with my

grandparents growing up. And he was always a very curious person

about not just about technology, but about everything. So he

always had the new gadgets, kind of like nerdy, but also like

really adorable. But as I've gotten older, I realized how

awesome of a quality that that isn't him. So he always had like

computers before everyone else said, you know, like a laptop

that, you know, will, you know, kind of more similar to what we

have today. And we had AOL before a lot of other people.

And I think that his curiosity kind of sparked that curiosity

in me as well and like wanting to, to learn about that sort of

stuff. So I think a little bit of it came from there. But also,

I think a lot of it came from the friend group that I was in

not that they are all building websites, but we all really

enjoyed pop culture. We liked going to concerts together. So

doing this stuff was a part of my social life and some of the

stuff I was creating and posting online and showing my dedication

for the Backstreet Boys was also like a part of my friend group,

we all really liked music and watching TRL and liked watching

VHS tapes of concerts and like going to concerts when they came

into town. So I think that my friends having you know, maybe

not the exact interest in terms of like internet marketing, but

in terms of being interested in pop culture in general made me

comfortable really like being my true full self in that activity

of mine.

So do you have any idea how this internet

marketing was gonna just explode? When was your first

like, Hey, I'm on the cusp of making some major history?

I don't know if I ever like envisioned myself, you

know, being a part of that trend coming to life. I think I always

just saw it for what it was going to be as soon as I see it.

As soon as I like hold a tool in my hands. I know what it's going

to become when I saw musically for the First time I knew what

it would become today I didn't need I didn't know it'd be

called tick tock but I knew what that was going to lead to and

what that was what that is now, but I saw that like at the end

of 2016, like I just held that tool and I was like this is you

know, Instagram revolutionized how we socialize with with

photos. And Tik Tok has revolutionized how we, how we

socialize with videos. And I don't think we'll see another

big social media platform shift until there's a big shift in

like hardware that's being widely used by everybody.

Because hardware has always dictated what social media does.

So everyone's like, what's next. And like, I don't know if

there's something significantly different next, until there's

something significantly different that we all have

access to. And we're all holding in our hands every day. So more

people having laptops created MySpace, more people being able

to text from a phone created Twitter, more people being able

to have photos on their phone, created Instagram. And then more

people having videos on their phone created Tik Tok, that it

really is what dictates what platform comes next. You know,

we'll obviously have new tools and new things come into the

market. But I don't think we'll see as drastic of a shift in

social platforms until there's hardware to sort of inspire that

shift.

And I think, to your point hardware available to

the masses, yeah, like, I think VR is a big thing. But it's

still at a price point that not everybody...

VR, there's a lot of limitations as to how much

time you can use it for, it'd be for a lot of reasons you

couldn't be in that situation in a VR Room for more than 20

minutes. One, it's going to be difficult for people to figure

out how to take a break and go use the bathroom because you're

gonna have to like gear off and gear off and mid experience.

It's probably not good for your brain. I don't know, like the

science behind that. But I imagined that it's not great to

do that kind of experience for more than 20 minutes, I think

that there's some limitations to in terms of like one it being

mobile, being able to carry it with you, but to like how long a

person can engage with that in a healthy way. So I think that

that has a second to sort of develop before we see major

changes because of that.

Here you are today, co founder of your own

social media, music management firm, you're young...

I like that. I feel old all the time. So call

me young as much as being you know, young and female. Both of

those things, either together or separately, can definitely

create adversity. Sometimes I will say though, I haven't had

some of the horror stories that other people have had. Luckily,

like I've had my moments where I can call where like, I know that

if I said the same thing on the phone or in an email in a room

and I was older I was a man or I was both of those things that I

wouldn't be taken more seriously. And I see some of my

clients who have older white male managers, and they, I feel

like those guys do nothing for the artists and the artists

idolizes them strangely, I'll never understand some of that.

So there's some frustrations that I have for that. But

overall, I just, I think I just a voice, I've kind of had the

mindset like, I'm going to do this no matter what. And I will

keep pushing no matter what. And, you know, I have those

moments, but I'm not going to let it stop me. And I actually

had, I feel like this moment happened at the right time in my

life, not this year, but the year before I attended a Forbes

summit in Abu Dhabi. And because of some world conflicts, Hillary

Clinton was supposed to be there in person, but she wasn't able

to do so. But they had her like conference in and I was

fortunate enough to be selected to like, ask her a question

directly, which was a really awesome moment for me. And the

question I asked her and I was kind of dealing with a couple

different things that work that were challenging not because of

the people that I work with, but because of external

circumstances with some of the clients I work with. And I asked

him like, you went through like the greatest like one of the

greatest career losses that you can you lost a presidential

election. Why are you still here? Like, how do you keep

going after that? Because I think a lot of people if they

lost the presidential election would be like, bye.

Yeah. Where's the nearest rock I can crawl

under?

Yeah, and she's just like, I don't want people

to think they're right about me. Like, I don't want the naysayers

to think they're right about me. i It's like, I almost have too

much ego or too much pride to do that. But I think that's a

really positive thing. And I feel the same way. Like I, if

somebody thinks I can't do something, it's, you know, kind

of secretly like a not a negative motivator, but kind of

a fun motivator. Like, that's kind of how I am. It's

motivating to be like, Hi, I'm here. I know you didn't want me

to be but here I am. You can't get away from me. And I'm going

to change your mind because I'm going to do great things for

this project that are going to make you look great, too, then

it's going to happen one way or another.

Oh my gosh. Okay. So do you consider

yourself more of an artist or more of a business person?

Definitely a business person. I think I'm

very creative, but definitely like in a business way. I think

I'm really good at creating new processes. All problems that

like nobody would have pieced together the same way, I think

I'm really good at looking at somebody's art or product of

being an artist and figuring out how they can make some changes

and make their business operate more efficiently or marter.

market their products more efficiently. But I'm definitely

business like, through through for sure.

So this whole genre of business is relatively

new. I mean, what is it? 20 years old, maybe?

Yeah, I've been working at it since the

beginning. And I would say like the birth of it, I would say,

MySpace was like, the main moment, I think birth of social

media, but here volume, which was a couple of years before

that. And it goes an important predecessor to what like the

music player on MySpace was so pure volume, Myspace era is kind

of like the birth of modern social media, as I see it now.

So knowing now all the platforms that we have,

what advice do you give to folks that say, Hey, now? I mean,

let's say it's been 20 years. I mean, now it's flooded. So how

do you differentiate yourself, if you were just now coming up

into it.

There's still a lot of problems to be solved in

the music business in general, I think attaching yourself to a

problem that you feel like you have insight on that people may

not have thought of is a really good way to get into a business.

It's competitive, like the music business. And the problem I saw

is, there's this platform called MySpace, and I see a bunch of

local college bands using it, but I'm not seeing big artists

use it. And I'm not really sure why. But I know that fans would

like engaging with popular artists in this way. And so I

just kind of went for it. Because I didn't see anybody

doing it. And I, I thought about me, and I'm like, this would

have been so cool. If like the Backstreet Boys could like send

updates on MySpace bulletins, and, you know, share new songs

on a player and DM people back and post content in real time, I

was like, This is so cool, I would have loved this. And I

want to help other artists do that. And I'm going to take the

burden off of artists having to think about that. And I'm going

to be making some of their fans happy and feel more seen and

communicated within the same time. But I you know, I really

attached myself to this problem or thing that wasn't being done

yet. And I think that's always a good way into a business, it's

easier to win in business, if you pick a lane that isn't as

crowded, but might have problems that affect a lot of people on a

frequent basis.

That's great counsel. So running your

company, what are some of the business things that you wish

you knew that you had to learn the hard way?

One of the biggest things I had to learn

the hard way is that it's a very different payment schedule, in

terms of how you get paid as a business versus how you get paid

as an employee. So there's a lot of laws protecting employees in

terms of you having to be paid, you know, on time, in the way

they were promised. In business, it's a little, it's a little

more dicey. Like, I would say, most companies aren't going to

pay you for at least 30 days. And sometimes they tell you,

they're going to pay you in 30 days, but they actually don't

pay you for six months. And sometimes in worst case

scenario, people don't pay you ever, you get ripped off. So I

you know, I've I've obviously evolved like my policies over

the years to protect myself from different situations like this.

But when you pick up a project you're having, you're kind of

having to invest a little bit like you have to invest in staff

and resources, before you get paid, especially at the bigger

companies like a warner or Sony, or universal or Disney, they're

gonna up they're gonna pay at least the minimum, they'll pay

30 days, a lot of times, it's 9120, sometimes it gets lost in

the shuffle, and you don't get it for like six months or a

year. So you just have to plan your cash flow schedule

accordingly. And know how much cash you have to have on hand to

run your business and have a really good system in place for

keeping track of what's owed to you and when to cut off projects

when they haven't paid. So I'd say that's one thing that

especially understood better because I didn't start a company

with like that knowledge or funding. And at the beginning,

the first year, it's really hard to like, you know, be like, Oh,

I thought I would have gotten paid by now and I can't pay my

rent. And this is scary. So I have that under control now. But

people don't pay the bills on time. It's just not the same as

being an employee. So really think about that, when you're

starting a business if you want to do that. So that's part one.

And part two, probably the hardest part of your job is not

going to be the service you offer or the product. You're

making the hardest part of the job for me and I think a lot of

other people who run a business is like the personnel and staff

side of it. It's really tough. I feel like there's not a lot of

education on how to live while you're in school anyway on how

to hire the right people manage them the correct way. And then

that's evolves per generation to and what's happening in the

world. How you manage people, before and after. COVID is

pretty different, how you manage people and the office versus

work from home. Very Different. And that I would say, that's

definitely the hardest part of my job. And I think I've learned

a lot. And I give a lot of other people advice now on those

topics, but it was a hard journey, one from a business

standpoint, but too emotionally, because it's hard to not take

things personal when somebody that's worked for you for five

years quits that you really liked, and you feel like you had

a friendship with too, or somebody leaves and goes to

another company. Or it can even be like, emotionally daunting.

Sometimes when you delegate a task to somebody and they don't

do it, you get in your head, and you're like, am I not

delegating, right? Do they just not like me? Do they just not

care, and it really has taken a lot of work to be able to have a

better like, emotional relationship with, you know,

employees, you know, leaving or not doing their jobs correctly.

Thank you, by the way for the vulnerability of

sharing that.

Of course.

One of the things I think you really hit

that nail on the head with is the people side of the business,

what are some of the resources that you've leaned on to help

develop your leadership and management styles?

So I've gone through different phases in my

life, about how to handle these different things, because I will

say it is like, I still have problems with it today, it is

still an ongoing journey. I don't I don't think it ever

won't be I think it's managing people and groups of people is a

hard job. So, you know, I for a while I had a business coach, me

and my business partner would actually do some of the sessions

together. And I think that that served us really well. At that

point in our life, we're doing it I don't know if that's the

right situation for me anymore. But I think that if you're

looking for a place to start, even like a monthly session with

like a career coach or business coach can be super helpful just

to gain insight. And it's kind of like having a therapist in

business is how I say it, but it is super helpful. And you're

able to, like address a specific situation and work through how

to deal with it. And also why like, you may be emotionally

feeling about it a certain way. And I actually I, you know, I do

therapy every week, and I talked to my therapist about some of

the issues I have with employees to not really like, um, the

decisions I should make, but why I feel a certain way about them,

or why what is this drumming up inside of me in resolving that

issue, because it actually probably has nothing anything to

do with work, but you know, work in your history of your life,

you know, they do affect each other. So it is, you know, I

think it's important to figure out some way to analyze why you

may feel like you're overreacting in certain

situations at work, and not have that conversation be happening

with people that you work with. So I think that that's something

that's, that's really important. I've read a lot of different

books over the years, but I would say and a lot of them have

helped me in different capacities. But I will say the

one book that always helps me when I'm struggling with

personnel issues and how I feel about them is the Four

Agreements. I know that's not really a business book, but I

have a mini version of it actually, that I keep in my

purse. And if I go through it and think about each agreement,

and then this like the mini version of the book, you can

read in like five minutes, but I find if I go through it, I can

pinpoint like, what's out of balance with that issue, and

kind of bring it back into perspective and bring it back

into logic. And once I bring it back into Logic, I feel like I

can make a better decision. And also for me, I'm lucky I have a

business partner. So I would say that's another thing that's kept

me grounded deck, I got really lucky with my business partner

situation, because I've seen a lot of people go into business

together, and it was not the right partner for them. And the

reason why I think we work is purely just luck. Like we didn't

ask each other the right hard questions at the beginning of

this, I wouldn't have known the right hard questions to ask when

I was 20 years old. And we did this, we got lucky in terms of

being really aligned on the big stuff, what's important to us.

And just I think being having a good moral compass and being

generally good people has worked out but I've seen a lot of

people not be in the same situation as me. So I got lucky

on that one. But it's nice to have somebody like her to be

able to talk to you about these issues as well because other

perspectives are important than these tricky personnel

situations sometimes.

Absolutely. So totally shift gears; when you

unplug, what do you do?

When I unplug? It depends on how much time I have.

I think that if I'm if I'm trying to wind down to like go

to sleep. I love television. Apparently I love first

responder television. I didn't realize that was a genre until

one of the streaming platforms gave me a category that was like

first responder TV and I'm like, Oh, I guess that's my thing.

Television is kind of like a I guess sort of an easy lift to

take me out of my head if I've had a rough day. My favorite

thing to do to relax is to watch Sabrina the Teenage Witch on

Hulu. I like even if it's just like 10 minutes. I like to like

turn it on. It's strangely like such a peaceful sitcom for me,

but I like to watch that even if it's like in a small dose or

like five to 10 minutes before I go to bed while I'm eating

something like that. I really like it. I love Going for a

walk, I walk a lot, I walk a lot when I'm on conference calls,

actually, but I like to walk and maybe call a family member,

sometimes that's helpful to kind of take me out of my head and

relax a little bit and, you know, brings me brings me joy.

And if I have more time, I like anything to do with the water. I

love swimming, there's a nice swimming pool complex that I can

walk to from my house. That's awesome. That's one of the

reasons actually, like why we moved to this area, we also

moved to this area because we live in Santa Monica, and we

wanted to be closer to the ocean. So I like being around

the ocean. And if I have the most time, I like to travel

somewhere and go somewhere where I can swim and do snorkeling and

other nice things in the water. But I really enjoy swimming,

snorkeling, and finding sea turtles in Hawaii. That is my

ultimate way to relax.

That's awesome. What's next? As you look to the

future, where do we go from here?

I think I have a couple lanes for next, there's

still a lot of problems to be solved in digital marketing. And

there's more work than ever for artists to do. So I think that

my business will still be evolving on that front and

continuing to figure out how to make artists lives a little bit

easier on the digital marketing front. And this like ongoing

need to create a ton of content. So I think that's going to be

one important thing. The second lane artists management, I

really want to find one or two more artists to really get

behind and be a part of their team. So I'm kind of looking for

those projects right now, it would be like a couple more of

those over the next few years, I think Lane number three is I

really want to figure out how to evolve how digital marketing

people in the music business are compensated. So right now we

operate very much on a retainer basis. So you get, you know, a

monthly fee for the work that you do. But the amount of work

that we're doing is just becoming so astronomical, that

I've recently struck a deal with a record label on a project

where we're taking a percentage of master versus getting paid

per month. And I think that's going to work great for the

artists because they're not going to have that you know,

upfront cost going against their advance in their record deal,

though record label, it doesn't have to front that cost up

front. But if this project does work, I win. And I feel good

about the work I did in the beginning of their career and

getting them going on the digital front. I'm really hoping

to see more projects that are formatted on a percentage basis.

And that's a legacy that I want for me, but I want to be a part

of other digital people being able to do that, too. So that's

why I'm openly talking about these deal structures, because I

want other digital marketing people to maybe think about a

percentage might be a better option for them. Like in the

music business accountants slash business managers is what

they're called, and lawyers and artists, managers are

compensated on percentage. And I think digital is oftentimes just

as important as any of those roles. And I want digital to be

compensated and rewarded in the long run in a respectable way,

if they're an important part of an artist's career. And then

item four, I want to make a book about evergreen principles of

social media. It's something I'm working on right now. But I see

because I've done this for so long. I've seen there's a lot of

things that change, but there's a lot of things that stay the

same. So I'm working on that right now. I want to put that

out in the next couple of years. And then five, I do have a goal

of doing some sort of television production at some point,

whether it's a reality show or a drama, I have a couple of things

in the mix, but I you know, want to bring one of those ideas to

life at some point. But those are like my main focuses at the

moment.

I really don't say this lightly, but I think

it's super inspiring to see the path you've paved. I mean,

you're wise beyond your years.

Oh, thank you.

I really appreciate you being here. Thank

you very much.

Of course. Thank you for having me. I appreciate

you all.