Shownotes
Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 13 of People Soup – it’s Ross McIntosh here.
P Soupers - I'm recording this introduction in a hotel room in Dublin, as I'm working near here tomorrow - as usual I'm under the covers to give you the best audio experience. It's actually a new bank holiday today in Ireland - honouring St Brigid. It was originally a pre-Christian festival called Imbolc, marking the beginning of spring. It signalled an end to the darkness of winter and ushered in a new season of hope and growth. St Brigid is one of the patron saints of Ireland and a pretty inspirational woman by all accounts.
Which all takes me to another inspirational woman - whose book offers hope and growth for us all. In this episode - called All That We Are - I chat more to Gabriella Braun about the writing process - how the book evolved and how she kept going when there was nothing left in the tank. You'll hear my review and also some snippets of reviews from the Financial Times and Marie Claire - you'll also find out how the former England Cricket Captain, Mike Brearley, was involved in the book.
People Soup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science, in a way that’s practical, accessible and fun. We're all about sharing the ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond.
There is a transcript for each episode. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes then keep scrolling for all the useful links.
Read about our Chisi Awards from #365daysofcompassion for Best Podcast
Leave a review as a WhatsApp voicenote on +0034696636487
Ross' new website
Our Podcast Website on CAPTIVATE
Ross on Twitter
People Soup on Instagram which also features plenty of Ross' photos of the Andalusian life
People Soup Page on Facebook
And you can connect with Ross on LinkedIn
Transcripts
TWO GABRIELLA
[:[00:00:05] Gabriella: but they do say, leave your problems at home.
[:[00:00:43] Gabriella: That's all part of being human, peace Supers. I'm recording this introduction in our hotel room in Dublin as I'm working near here tomorrow.
[:[00:01:12] Ross: St. Bridget is one of the patrons Saints of Ireland, and a pretty inspirational woman by all account.
[:[00:01:46] Ross: People [00:02:00] Super is an award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to help you gloat to work a bit more often.
[:[00:02:24] Ross: And another friend reflected. Great. Listen, Gabriella is a very interesting woman. Love the comment. Where would you like to start? Rather than What do you want to be? Thanks to everyone who listened, rated and reviewed. Talked about it with a friend, recommended the podcast. With your help, we can reach more people with stuff that could be.
[:[00:02:50]
[:[00:03:07] Gabriella: 2nd of February.
[:[00:03:14] Gabriella: Oh, fantastic.
[:[00:03:31] Ross: In today's workplace the context is very rarely static, and we don't always consider or notice how we're showing up, the impact of our behavior on ourselves, and more importantly, the impact we have on others. In this book, Gabriella helps us to understand these complex issues through the lens of psychoanalytic and systemic thinking.
[:[00:04:09] Ross: " he fiddled with his red tie, which matched the red laces in his dark blue shoes." It's that sort of detail that just made my heart sing it. It just gave me an extra layer of appreciation. Gabriella also shares her own inner dialogue, which again is infused with that openness and humanity. Gabriella peels back the layers to help us understand the fundamentals of our minds and our potential for destructive behavior.
[:[00:04:53] Gabriella: Ross, you've given me goosebumps. I've got goosebumps. That is such a glorious review. Thank you so much. What a lovely, lovely review. And also you've completely got what I was doing.
[:[00:05:22] Gabriella: That's so lovely. Thank you so much.
[:[00:05:47] Ross: when was the seed planted that started to blossom or, grow to, write this book?
[:[00:06:01] Poor at taking it out into the world
[:[00:07:08] Gabriella: what's aggression? Leadership and aggression. What's it got to do with it? Leadership and persecution? Leadership and love leadership. And. a whole range of different seminars. And I put them on for, I think it was two and a half hours after work. People could come to one or to all eight of them.
[:[00:07:52] Gabriella: I was laughably naive I did do nine seminars. I did two [00:08:00] series, and then I did a project with further education leaders. Which was the seminars. but a whole day and in the afternoon we'd really apply it to those leaders and their work.
[:[00:08:11] Gabriella: And then in 2014, I went off on a writing retreat to start writing this book.
[:[00:08:31] Gabriella: what I learned quite quickly was that I had to learn to write. So you picking out the, the example of the sentences with a lot of detail, I really learned that and I really. Huge attention to the craft of writing. And I got very excited about the craft and I started reading about writing fiction and, you know, use some of the techniques, I suppose of fiction, like that kind of detail where you, you appeal to the readers different senses.
[:[00:09:29] Many iterations
[:[00:10:04] Ross: Hmm. It's so interesting to hear about the craft behind it and the, the inclusion of those details. Whether it's your details of emerging from a tube station and going for a coffee before a meeting with a team. It just really brings it to life and kind of cinema scope.
[:[00:10:41] Gabriella: I knew I'd include some of my thinking as a consultant. I had no idea that I'd include all that, biography or memoir. And it was when under lockdown, I was trying to write,
[:[00:10:55] Gabriella: and I got to the chapter at the end of part one of the three parts of the book, which is belonging. And I saw I'd put a title called Belonging in my chapter, outlines to the publisher.
[:[00:11:28] Gabriella: And then I included a lot of myself to the point where I worried whether I'd be able to work anymore because I'd revealed so much about myself.
[:[00:11:50] Gabriella: that Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Which I wouldn't tell clients in that way. But even more than that, some of the [00:12:00] chapters, you know, like my history, like my mum having bipolar, like Holocaust background in the family, I would never tell clients that. So I literally, at one point I thought, oh my God, I dunno if I'll be able to do this work in this way anymore. And then decided, well, this is what the book needs and I'll see about the work. If I can't do it in this way, I can't do it in this way, but prioritizing the book.
[:[00:12:44] Gabriella: There you go. That's, it's not a confession from you. I think it's a indictment of people like me that it's not known out there.
[:[00:13:16] Gabriella: Hmm.
[:[00:13:34] Gabriella: Oh, how
[:[00:13:40] Gabriella: Yeah,
[:[00:14:01] Gabriella: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And, and we just, , ignore all of that. And that was, absolutely it for me as well. I wanted to bring it to a wider audience and make it accessible because it can be made accessible and people are often very fascinated by it
[:[00:14:23] Ross: I dunno what the percentage might be of conversations we have as humans, but so many of them will be like, oh. And he turned to me and said this, and I said, you can't do that. And people are meeting with their friends and talking about what's happened at work
[:[00:14:41] Ross: and this is just a super useful resource to help. understand, but also have perhaps more productive conversations with our friends or, or start to think about these theories and how they might apply to the workplace.
[:[00:14:55] Ross: it's so powerful. And during the course of writing, were there moments when you just thought, oh, I'm gonna give up.
[:[00:15:09] Gabriella: well, your, deep sigh, um, reminded me, a couple of moments like that. I mean, there were, there were certainly plenty of times when I thought, oh God, I can't, I'm just stuck. I'm stuck. But I'd come, it wasn't, I can't do this anymore. It was, I'm stuck now and I'd come out of the stuck now. But I did get to a point where, There were two chapters that I hadn't done.
[:[00:15:34] Gabriella: one of them was, I mean, actually this is a confession. They were two chapters. I hadn't even put in the proposal. And as I was writing the book and getting on with the book, I suddenly thought, oh my God, I haven't got a chapter on succession. And it's such a major issue in organizations, and I haven't got a chapter on difference.
[:[00:16:20] Gabriella: But I did it. And then I tried the difference one, and I thought, I've haven't got any more in the tank. I can't do it. I can't write another word. and I wrote to my agent and I said, I can't do it. And I was so naive again about the publishing process, and I said to her, I'll have to add it on later down the line.
[:[00:17:24] Gabriella: I thought it was the bee's knees. I sent it to her, my agent, who by then, cuz she was gonna read the whole thing before it went to the editor. by then she'd read everything. So I wouldn't normally send her chapter by chapter. I sent her each of the three parts. but this one she hadn't seen. So I sent her this one and she has made a huge difference to this chapter.
[:[00:18:14] Gabriella: This has got to be relevant to your book and it's got to have longevity. I mean, it made absolute sense. But basically I had to start again on that chapter so A, I thought I couldn't write that chapter and B, when she said it's the first draft, I nearly fell under the table . I
[:[00:18:43] Gabriella: and that's, that's thanks to her.
[:[00:18:54] Gabriella: Ah, that was also, that was connected to the agent. So it was called, it was called various things, but the last thing it was called, when I propose to the get the literary agent, which you do before you go to a publisher, that you don't go to the publisher, the agent goes to the publishers. I sent it to the literary agent, the proposal with the title being Human at Work, and we agreed that she'd become my agent.
[:[00:19:47] Gabriella: There wasn't much to do. I was very lucky. but the main thing was thinking for title and I thought of things. And at the beginning of the year,
[:[00:19:55] Gabriella: I sent her a couple of possibilities, and she was like, yeah, it's the right [00:20:00] direction, but no. And then suddenly I got it and I wrote to her. She said, I'm very happy with that. And I also, I'd been going, which I didn't mention earlier on, but I'd been seeing Mike Brearley, who was the president of the British Institute of Psychoanalysis for a while, but also, Some people will know. Mike Brearley was a very well known captain of England Cricket a long time ago. Um, reputedly the best captain of England Cricket cuz he was so good with people and went on to become a psychoanalyst.
[:[00:20:46] Ross: Hmm.
[:[00:20:59] Gabriella: And he wrote back and he said, I think it might be genius. Four small words. I think it might be genius. And I thought, well, Mike Brearley telling me it might be genius. I'll take that.
[:[00:21:11] Gabriella: I'll have that. Yes.
[:[00:21:14] Gabriella: And I've been really pleased with the title. You know how sometimes you think something's or I think something's great, and then a month or a week or even a day later, I think, no, but this, I've stayed really happy with this title.
[:[00:21:34] Gabriella: I know
[:[00:21:39] Gabriella: they did it superbly. And actually we put in, so the agent went to submission to publishers with the title All that we are and the subtitle being Human at Work. And my publisher, when they did a press release, I noticed that they left off the subtitle and I said, oh, well aren't we having that? And my editor said, you can use it for now [00:22:00] by all.
[:[00:22:20] Gabriella: And it went to the publisher's marketing and sales people. And they said, no, we can't sell that. That's not all right. and my editor said, oh, I'm really sorry. And I was thinking, no, don't apologize. This is great to get this professional input at this point from, yeah, marketing, sales, and publicity.
[:[00:22:53] Ross: Isn't it interesting the skill of these people at each stage in
[:[00:22:58] Gabriella: Exactly. And then it went to design for the cover and my editor briefed, the designer I had, was given three options, you know, when the designer had done the job and this was far and away. my editor, when she sent me the three options, she said, we all have a strong preference, but see what you think.
[:[00:23:29] Ross: hmm. It's, it's, it's so strong. It speaks to. just wanted to go and pick it
[:[00:23:41] Ross: so how is the book being received? I've read some fabulous reviews on, on your website, and I'll make sure all these links are, in the show notes. But how's it been received
[:[00:24:20] Gabriella: Compassionate and discerning from Gwen Adshead who wrote The Devil, you know, which is a wonderful, wonderful book. And at the bottom that was on the Hard Back, but at the bottom it's Julia Hobsbawm author of The Nowhere Office, which is just so of the moment. Julia was ahead of the moment in writing.
[:[00:24:48] Gabriella: mean,
[:[00:24:50] Gabriella: yes, yes, yes. And then on the back, the Financial Times got behind it. They've been completely wonderful. So on the back cover it starts, A remarkable book, it will move you and awaken a new respect for your colleagues and even your employer.
[:[00:25:16] Gabriella: and at the bottom of that, it's Marie Claire uk and I love that the juxtaposition of the financial times of Marie Claire and Mary Claire have said, essential reading for anyone who's ever felt rattled by workplace dynamics. And then inside there's two pages of wonderful blurb.
[:[00:25:37] Gabriella: all modesty, as you see there's no trace of modesty, I'm afraid. I'm boasting. So delighted and proud.
[:[00:25:56] Gabriella: That was my aim. That was absolutely my aim.[00:26:00]
[:[00:26:03] Gabriella: I hope, I mean, I'd love, you know, lots of people to buy it, but the, critical acclaim is just wonderful. I couldn't have dreamt I'd get such acclaim actually.
[:[00:26:23] Gabriella: Uh, well, I'm doing, I've been really lucky cause of the book. I've got some new kinds of work that I wasn't doing before and that's been lovely. and I'm also trying, so far, it's going very badly, but I'm trying my hand at writing friction. I, I don't know that I'll ever pull it off. As I say, so far it's really not going well, but I'm trying, I definitely want to keep writing whatever I do.
[:[00:27:01] Gabriella: Well, we'll see.
[:[00:27:07] Ross: is exciting.
[:[00:27:10] Ross: Gabriella, I'd love to ask my guests for a, for a takeaway. Is there anything that you'd share with our listeners? to support them in their reflections, perhaps on the workplace.
[:[00:27:44] Gabriella: don't bring your emotions to work. Be rational. We can't. We are all that we are and we bring all that we are, and that is for good and for bad, our emotions help us at work. But I think [00:28:00] first of all, understanding that you can't just leave it aside and it's not gonna help you anyway. I think then actually, also understanding that we are not coherent, that we have lots of different parts of us and they can get in a bit of conflict with each other.
[:[00:28:47] Gabriella: Gosh, that, that's a strange reaction. Rather than just maybe being angry or upset, but also trying to think where are they coming from? What, what might be going on for them that has caused that kind of behavior. Re reaction doesn't mean that you tolerate all kinds of bad behavior, but it can help you and help the workplace to understand more.
[:[00:29:21] Ross: Beautiful. Thank you so much for that. The generosity of, of guiding us through that takeaway. I'd just like to, to thank you for coming on the show, Gabriella. It's an absolute joy to hear you talk, to meet you, and to help spread the word of the such important work that you and your colleagues do.
[:[00:29:43] Gabriella: Thank you so much, Ross. I've really enjoyed it. It's been a lovely conversation. Thank you so much for inviting me, and thank you so much for helping spread the word of the book and the work.
[:[00:30:23] Ross: Special thanks to Tabitha Pel PR who made and supported the connection between me and Gabriella.
[:[00:30:48] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup.
[:[00:31:24] Gabriella: That's a wrap. That was great, Ross. Thank you. If Netflix listen, wouldn't that be cool
[:[00:31:43] Gabriella: Yeah. I think it could be quite it. It's because there's quite a lot of drama isn't there to
[:[00:31:52] Ross: I think, I think workplaces are the major source of drama
[:
