What if everything you've been taught about goal setting is actually working against you?

What if the rigid structure of SMART goals is crushing your creativity, disconnecting you from your body, and forcing you into a binary that simply doesn't fit who you are?

Today's guest, Zephyr (Zeph) Williams (they/them), is an anti-hustle business strategist who helps radical entrepreneurs build "breathe-easy businesses." When Zeph and I connected over our mutual loathing of SMART goals on social media, I knew we had to have this conversation.

In this episode, we're diving deep into why traditional goal-setting methods fail so many of us—especially neurodivergent folks and anyone who doesn't fit the conventional mold. Zeph introduces their revolutionary SLIC method (Sustainable, Long-term, Iterative, Consistent) and shares why self-care isn't optional—it's strategic. But the real magic happens when we land on a beautiful reframe that might just change how you think about achievement forever.

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This No-BS Connected Strategy Guide shows you what “good” looks like. Download examples of finished Connected Strategic Stacks — including best practice No-BS OKRs — and get instant clarity on your next strategic step. Includes a quick self-assessment to pinpoint your organization’s biggest OKR opportunities.

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Episode Highlights:

• Why SMART goals create a restrictive binary that crushes creativity and exploration
• The semantic problems with SMART goal terminology that create confusion and ambiguity
• How "specific" goals create tunnel vision that blocks curiosity and the learning journey
• The SLIC Method: Sustainable, Long-term, Iterative, and Consistent goal-setting
• Why self-care isn't selfish—it's a strategic foundation for sustainable success
• How to reconnect with your body through micro-practices and energy tracking
• The role of grace and compassion when breaking free from binary thinking
• What "queering" business practices means and why it's for everyone
• The beautiful reframe from "goal setting" to "becoming"—asking "What am I becoming?"
• Why consistency means showing up as your needs allow, not the same way every day
• How traditional goal-setting often leads to self-abandonment and disconnection from the body

Key Concepts Explored:

• The binary nature of SMART goals and why they create a restrictive pass/fail mentality
• The SLIC Method as an alternative: Sustainable, Long-term, Iterative, and Consistent goal-setting
• Self-care as a radical act of rebellion against systems that devalue your worth
• "Queering" business practices to move beyond traditional binary frameworks
• The shift from "goal setting" to "becoming" as a more expansive approach to growth
• Body-based awareness and reconnecting with somatic needs during goal pursuit
• Why consistency means showing up according to your capacity, not rigid daily habits

Common Questions Answered:

• Why do SMART goals feel so restrictive and overwhelming?
• What makes the SLIC method different from traditional goal-setting?
• How do you start reconnecting with your body if you feel disconnected?
• What does "queering" goal setting actually mean?
• How do you define consistency without burning out?
• Why is self-care considered strategic rather than selfish?

Notable Quotes:

"SMART goals are very binary. You either succeed or you fail. And I'm not somebody who does the binary very well." - Zeph Williams [00:03:00]

"When I hear 'specific,' it feels like a narrowing down... You don't get to enjoy the journey and enjoying the view." - Zeph Williams [00:07:00]

"Self-care isn't selfish—it's strategic. When you take care of yourself, you are sending a gentle reminder that you matter and that your needs matter." - Zeph Williams [00:11:00]

"What if instead of goal setting, we focused on becoming? What are you becoming?" - Zeph Williams [00:32:00]

"There are just so many people who are brilliant... Sometimes it just feels like the world has just gotten to them and that light has gotten really dim." - Zeph Williams [00:28:00]

Chapters:

[00:00:00] Introduction: Why SMART Goals Need a Rethink

[00:01:30] Meet Zeph: From Career Coaching to SLIC Thinking

[00:04:00] What’s Wrong with SMART Goals? The Limits of Over-Specification

[00:07:30] Beyond Binary Thinking: The Problems with Measurable & Time-Bound

[00:10:00] SLIC Goals: A Kinder Framework for Growth and Learning

[00:13:00] How to Know You’re Making Progress (Without Hitting a Number)

[00:15:30] Clarity Without Rigidity: Why Language Matters in Goal-Setting

[00:18:00] Accountability vs. Shame: Rethinking How We “Check In”

[00:20:30] Zeph’s Coaching Practice: How SLIC Supports Real Transformation

[00:24:00] Choosing Goals That Align With Your Values and Energy

[00:27:00] When Goal-Setting Feels Like Self-Punishment

[00:29:30] The Long Game: Creating Systems That Evolve With You

[00:32:00] SLIC in Practice: Real Examples from Zeph’s Clients

[00:35:00] How to Get Started with SLIC Thinking

[00:38:00] Wrap-Up: Connect with Zeph and Learn More

Guest Information:

• Zephyr Williams is an anti-hustle business strategist showing radical business owners how to build breathe-easy businesses that make their brains happy and let their bodies breathe. With a background in criminal justice policy and prison abolition work, Zeph brings a unique perspective on dismantling harmful systems and creating space for everyone to thrive.

Connect with Zeph:

• Find Zeph on most social platforms as @its_mxzephy
• Most active on Threads
• Instagram for regular updates
• Current launch: Aligned as F*ck Biz Clinic

Sara’s Links and Resources:

• Buy Sara’s book: youareastrategist.com
• Get a copy of Sara’s latest freebie: The Connected Strategy Guide
• Join Sara's Email Newsletter: findrc.co/newsletter
• Email Sara: sara@thinkydoers.com
• Virtual OKR Consult: Start your personalized virtual OKR consult
• Thinkydoers Homepage: saralobkovich.com/thinkydoers-pod

Upcoming Events:

• Catch Sara at the World OKR Summit! She’ll be speaking this October 30–31: okrsummit.org

Find full show notes and the episode transcript via https://findrc.co/thinkydoers .

Mentioned in this episode:

Don't forget: Get your free No-BS OKRs Workbook or schedule a VIP Strategy Day!

Before I let you go, I just wanna remind you, you can pick up your copy of "You Are a Strategist: Use No-BS OKRs to Get Big Things Done" at https://youareastrategist.com, and you'll get that free PDF of the "No-BS OKRs Workbook" when you purchase direct. Don't wanna DIY it? Book a VIP executive strategy day with me. They can be used one-on-one. It can be used to facilitate an in-person or remote event with your org. It can also be used for a keynote that inspires actual results for your upcoming event. Visit https://findrc.co/vipday for all the details. And from there you can book a free executive strategy intake call, or request a no meeting virtual consult. A VIP executive strategy day helps you unlock clarity, align quickly, and drive results in just one powerful day.

Don't forget your free No-BS OKRs Workbook

Before I let you go, I just wanna remind you, you can pick up your copy of "You Are a Strategist: Use No-BS OKRs to Get Big Things Done" at https://youareastrategist.com, and you'll get that free PDF of the "No-BS OKRs Workbook" when you purchase direct. Don't wanna DIY it? Book a VIP executive strategy day with me. They can be used one-on-one. It can be used to facilitate an in-person or remote event with your org. It can also be used for a keynote that inspires actual results for your upcoming event. Visit https://findrc.co/vipday for all the details. And from there you can book a free executive strategy intake call, or request a no meeting virtual consult. A VIP executive strategy day helps you unlock clarity, align quickly, and drive results in just one powerful day.

Welcome to the Thinkydoers podcast.

I'm your host, Sara Lobkovich, and I am a Thinkydoer.

I'm here to help those of us who are wired for change find more

satisfaction, frustration, less friction, and more flow in our work.

Today I have a very niche treat.

I made a new friend on Threads over our mutual loathing of smart goals.

So today my guest is Zeph, an anti-hussle business strategist who helps radical

business owners build what they call "breathe-easy businesses." When Zeph

and I connected about our mutual loathing — yes, loathing — of SMART

goals on a social media thread, I knew we had to have this conversation.

I don't know many people who feel as strongly about.

The fine points of goal setting as I do if you've ever felt boxed in by

traditional goal-setting practices.

If you've wondered why hitting your targets doesn't always feel like

success, or if you're curious about what queering your approach to work

might look like, this episode's for you.

We're going to explore Zeph's SLIC method for goal setting, talk about why

self-care is not optional, and we happen to land on a pretty beautiful reframe.

That might just change how you think about goals altogether.

So let's get into the episode.

Zeph, I wanna welcome you to Thinkydoers.

We met in a kind of funny way.

Yeah, we did.

Over our mutual loathing of SMART goals on a Threads post.

I was like, holy shit, someone who hates SMART goals as much as I do.

We've gotta meet.

And so we did.

And you're definitely a Thinkydoer.

I couldn't wait to get you on the podcast.

For folks who don't know you yet though, let's hear who are you, what do you do?

I'm super excited about it.

So if you've not seen me running around these internet streets — hi, hello babes.

I'm an anti-hussle biz strategist showing radical biz babes how to build

breathe-easy business that make their brains happy and let their bodies breathe.

I'm all about simple, values-aligned systems that fit in a backpack — light,

flexible, and ready to go wherever I go.

There's systems built within, capacity-driven curiosity, so you can

show up with enough space to choose your own biz adventure without burning out,

where your biz gets to be the portal to a life you actually want to live, one

that's well resourced and rooted in care.

This is Biz is Unusual, and it's what makes biz sustainable and subversive

in this capitalistic hellscape.

Because you don't have to choose between doing good and doing biz.

Collective care is the biz plan.

I got goosebumps at the end.

I love it.

Welcome.

You expressed your loathing of SMART goals online, and I think there

are probably very few people in the world who have feelings as strong

about SMART goals as you and I do.

there are a lot of people who don't enjoy them, but I'd just love to

hear from you, why do you have such a visceral reaction to SMART goals?

Yeah, thank you.

I love this question.

So for me, I'm very expansive.

So for me it's all about possibility, it's all about curiosity, it's about

expanding into who you're becoming and leaving behind who you were.

And so for me, when I think about SMART goals, SMART goals are very binary.

You either succeed or you fail.

And I'm not somebody who does the binary very well.

I have a very rebellious streak in me.

And It feels very rigid, it feels very structured.

It feels like there's not a lot of leeway to not only have a different

outcome, but there's not a lot of space to actually enjoy the journey as

you're getting to where you want to go.

There's no sense of play, there's no sense of adventure,

there's no sense of exploration.

It's all reliant on the actual outcome — like, what is it, the thing that you want?

And also, what I find with that is that when we decide the thing

that we want, it's like, why did we decide that was a thing that we want?

Because most of the time, the goals that somebody's already prescribed for us.

Because it's easier to fall into that.

We think about things like money, or we think about things like visibility.

And I'm like, why are those the metrics that we have decided upon, that

that is what our success looks like?

And I'm like, as somebody who's expansive, that doesn't really fly well with me.

Because that's not how I see success.

That's not how success lives and feels in my body.

I love this so much because my reasons for loathing SMART goals are very

mechanical, and,\ yours are very like energetic and emotional and beyond that.

And I think that's just absolutely delightful.

For me, incoherence and ambiguity are my kryptonites.

I encountered smart goal setting first when I was an employee and

had to write SMART goals for work or was assigned SMART goals for work.

And every time I say SMART goals, I'm putting "goals" in

quotation marks in my head.

Because to me, SMART goals are planning activity, and

that's plans, not goal setting.

But when I started to work with SMART goals in the workplace, I had one

workplace where SMART has a original meaning: Specific, Measurable.

Achievable or Attainable, Relevant, and Time-bound.

But I was in a workplace where A meant "Achievable" and R meant "Realistic".

Because not everybody sticks to the original, you know,

what the term stand for.

There's a whole bunch of variations.

And so I sat down to write my goals and I'm like, what the fuck is the difference

between achievable and realistic?

Right.

And what does specific even mean?

Yeah.

I'm a words girl.

I'm a semantics nerd.

And so when we get into the semantics and the semantics aren't helpful for

me, or aren't meaningful or aren't consistent, it's basically a term when

what we're aiming for is shared meaning.

I don't know that SMART goals really do that for us.

So for me, it's really mechanical and like cognitive.

you and I have both developed alternative goal-setting practices.

You mentioned "specific", and why was that the first word in SMART that you

went to when you're like, what the fuck?

Tell me more about that.

When I hear "specific," it, it feels like it's a narrowing down.

There's a very narrow focus.

There's a very like, "Let's close in and gets straight to the

point." And I'm like, why are we gonna get straight to the point?

Because when we get straight and we get like that tunnel vision, there's

an entire world that's happening around you — and it's like you can't see.

You don't get to see the path.

It's like you're legit and like an underwater tunnel

that you're driving through.

And you know that there's a world around you, but it's not safe

enough for you to be outside.

So there's an element of not feeling safe.

There's an element of not being able to enjoy the journey and enjoying the view.

And I think in the process of all of that, people are missing the nuance,

they're missing the emotional cues.

They're missing what it feels like to be alive in the journey of getting

to where you want to get, with whatever your outcome, your goal.

As somebody who values curiosity and exploration I just feel

like I'm getting boxed in.

For what reason?

What is the reason?

I really love that you brought up fear in that context of closing off the curiosity

and the learning journey that happens.

And because I do, in the work that I do in corporate

environments, I see so much fear.

And so SMART goals are planning our activity, so they feel within our control.

And so I think that's part of why some people are drawn to them

or find some comfort in them.

But then I'm with you.

It's like, then that plan is at the exclusion of what we

could discover on the way.

Right.

And I'm not even sure those goals are even things that are in our control.

Because especially when it's an external metric of success, which is

where most of our goals lie, is like on money, or I don't know, whatever.

I've been so focused on away from external metrics, I can't even name them anymore.

For me, it's like those are things that are outside my control.

I can't decide how much money I make.

Yeah, I can put in a lot of effort, but if the market's not right,

or I haven't attracted right-fit clients, or just — myriad amounts of

reasons that may not be within it.

So this idea of goals and outcomes being within our control, I'm

like, well that's just silly.

'Cause are they really?

Absolutely.

that's why I usually say an "illusion of control." Because even what

we feel like we control — isn't.

There are more variables.

It's an illusion, or a comforting illusion of control, in most situations.

When we spoke the first time, you mentioned there's no room

for feelings in SMART goals.

So I'd love for you to tell me a little bit more about, for you, what

gets lost when people are really only focused on those SMART outcomes?

Yeah.

I'm a data nerd, so I understand the power of quantitative data and qualitative data.

They have very specific reasons for existing and you use them

for very specific reasons and very specific purpose.

I have a master's in policy, so I understand numbers, but I also

understand that qualitative is something you also need, because

that's where the storytelling happens.

But for me, when I think about like SMART goals and that quantitative

thing, I think my hang-up with the quantitative and the numbers game is

that's the only thing that you go towards.

It's either you pass or fail.

This theme of exploration and curiosity will play throughout every number,

every letter that SMART stands for.

Because you're just so focused on getting to that number that

everything else falls away.

And I personally don't feel like I get an opportunity to enjoy the process, because

I'm so stressed and so focused on getting that number that nothing else matters.

I'm one of those people that is very type A — I've gotten better about not being so

type A as I've fallen into my ripe old age — but I used to be that person who was like,

"I have to get to this." And at all costs.

By any means necessary.

Which means that, again, tunnel vision.

You're not seeing anything around you.

You're not being able to enjoy it.

It almost feels like you're losing a sense of connection with yourself too.

Because you're so focused on getting there that you're not even paying

attention to what your body might need.

I know that when I'm chasing goals like that, there would be times where

I would skip meals, I wouldn't drink water, I would not move out of a

chair because I was so hyper-focused on getting to where I wanted to go,

that again, nothing else mattered.

So my body was like a desiccated mummy sitting in a chair, and it's

like, baby, we cannot do this.

This is not happening.

You have an alternative approach to goal setting that you

advocate for — the SLIC method.

So tell me about your SLIC goal-setting system.

So SLIC stands for Sustainable, Long-term, Iterative, and Consistent.

And the S is super important.

I'm that too.

I'm that self-care girlie.

I'm going to put self-care above everything else because if you are

not taking care of yourself, there's no way in hell you're gonna be

able to take care of anybody else.

And also, when you take care of yourself, you are sending a gentle reminder that

you matter and that your needs matter.

And I think in this world where it's capitalism and the patriarchy and

just systems in general that are doing everything to tell you that

you are not worthy and that you are not deserving, that we have to be

very proactive in making sure that we are taking care of ourselves.

So sustainability, self-care, those kinds of things will always be at the top

of my list, which is why that's first.

So there's Sustainable, Long-term — oftentimes SMART goals feel like

they're very focused on the short term.

It's like, you get to a goal and that's it.

There's nothing else.

But I'm thinking about, okay, if I hit this goal, or wherever I'm trying to

get to, that's not the end of the story.

There's also what comes next.

There's also the journey that gets there.

It's allowing myself to take a moment to pause and breathe and invite in a lot

more space in my body, and invite in more space in my biz or wherever I'm working.

It's focusing on long-term outcome, long-term progress.

Iterative, so I think one of the other failings of SMART goals is that it

does not allow opportunity for you to kind of learn and fuck it up and

make mistakes and pivot and, you know, change things up if something happens.

Because it's got that very es/no, pass/fail, succeed/fail binary.

And iterative goes, "Okay cool, I can relax into this. This is great." Like,

let me go on this little side quest.

Maybe today I want to, I don't know, take a rest today.

Or maybe I wanna go explore something different.

It might kind of tangibly has something to do with this, but not really, and

it's gonna get me closer to this.

But if I was following a SMART goal, I would not be able to go explore it,

because it's a very tenuous thread.

So it's like, "Okay, I can't do this because if I go focus on the quest, I

can't focus on the the goal that I'm getting to." So I want something that's

iterative and allows me to, again, play and explore and get curious.

Because if I open up this door and allow myself to go choose this side

quest, who knows what I might find?

I might be able to take in more information.

I might be able to learn something different that says, "Okay, maybe this

direction you're going isn't right and we need to pivot and we need to change."

So this is allowing me to adapt and change and be in an ecosystem that's

thriving and growing at any point.

So, Sustainable, Long-term, Iterative.

And the last one is Consistent.

And it's not consistent as them "showing up every day." I swear to goodness, I

want all coaches, service providers, anybody who is an online person to

stop saying consistent means is showing up every day in the same fucking way.

Stop doing it.

Just please, sweet baby gods.

I'm begging you.

Just do not do that.

Because consistent is showing up as your needs allow.

And again, I'm very body-based.

I'm very much in tune with what my body needs and how I, move

in the world, and what I need in order to show up as my best self.

And so when I'm thinking about Consistent, it's allowing myself to check in

with what I need and how I'm moving through the day and going, "Okay, cool.

This is the energy that I have for the day.

Maybe my definition of consistent means that I'm only showing up a little bit.

But I'm still showing up, so that means I'm still consistent." Even if it's

something like, "my consistency today is just checking in to do a little journal

prompt." That means I'm still consistent.

So my SLIC system is really about taking off the pressure that SMART goals put in.

It's really taking off the expectations of success that the SMART goal really

like hammers in dust, and really goes, "Okay, cool. What do you need to know

about yourself right now in order to show up today with the tools, knowledge,

resources, and energy that you have already, and letting that be enough."

The thing that really catches my ear, thinking about some of the clients I work

with who have either been conditioned or who have evolved to be cut off from body.

And like a minute ago when we were talking about SMART goals, the term that came

to mind was "self-abandoning." Like, the singular focus on this one outcome.

That to me is really arbitrary, it's sometimes at the exclusion of our

somatic awareness or our selves.

And so I'd love for the listeners who are listening and their brains are still in

the space of, "I have to" or "I can't" or who live in the conditioned binary.

What would you say to someone either drawing from your work with clients

or from your own evolution, what would you say to someone who's listening

and is like still in that space?

The first thing I'd ask you to do is invite a little bit of grace

and compassion for yourself.

Because these are really ingrained systems.

We are indoctrinated into like capitalism and the patriarchy and

deciding who we are and who we should be from a very young age.

And we are not told that there is possibility to be anything other

than what you're expected to be.

There's probably not gonna be a big moment where you're gonna go, "Okay, this binary

is not working for me." It's going to require a lot of grace and compassion to

even just have that self-awareness to be, "Oh, this is not working." So I would say:

One, offering that grace and compassion.

And two, start looking at little micro things that you're doing during

the day, and start paying attention.

Taking notes.

Whether that's doing an energy tracker.

I think one of the thing first things I did was track, "Do I

have more energy in the morning?

Do I have more energy at night?

Are there pockets of day where I have more energy?" Because that was allowing me more

space to actually figure out and be more brave and comfortable in myself to have

a moment to step back and start thinking critically about how I'm moving in the

world and how I'm showing up in the world.

But, grace and compassion, and then taking these small moments to start getting a

little bit of self-awareness about all the ways in which you are getting really

rigid on "I have to do it this way" or "it has to be this way," and going and just

starting to invite a little curiosity.

Why does it have to be that way?

Who says it has to be this way?

What story is it telling me about what happens if I don't do it this way?

And letting just those little small nudges be enough.

Because it's gonna be baby steps for a long time.

unless you, of course decide to go on a Vogue runway and and decide that you

are coming home to yourself and coming home to an identity that is completely

outside what society is deemed as quote-unquote “normal.” Unless you

have that moment, you're gonna have to pull out these bricks bit by bit.

Bit by bit.

So it's going to take some time.

I worry, like if the catwalk doesn't work, maybe you're just that person, it's

like, "Okay, cool, this isn't working. Let's just get a steamroller and knock it

down." There's always gonna be options.

But that grace and space, to have a little compassion for yourself, to have

a little bit of curiosity, and to start having those brave questions about the

way the world works and your place and it, and does it need to be that way?

Every person starts somewhere.

Just seeing how disconnected people become from self and self-care

and body-based experiences.

I just think there's a lot to be talked about because even if people don't

feel it or get it right away, there's something at some point in their life

where they're gonna be like, whoa, look at that — I'm looking at bees right now

pollinating blackberry flowers right outside my door, and it's like, whoa.

You know, like, we have those moments that stop us and remind

us that we are living beings in a world, not just cogs in machines.

And you just said something too that made me think about something.

'cause you're talking about people who are in a body and, you might be in a body that

feels a little, like not only disconnected from your brain, but feels like dead.

Like your body just kind of feels like it's on autopilot.

And so trying to have those questions that I posed might feel really

big and might feel really scary.

It might feel really unnerving, because you were starting to question.

So grace and compassion might not be enough.

And what I would invite you to do to that is find like some kind of

movement practice to start getting those feelings to move, because your

feelings, if they get stuck in your body, it's just gonna continue to go.

And you're gonna start feeling really physical effects for it.

Allowing those feelings to move through it, something where you can start

noticing how your body is moving in space, and start paying attention to, like

— especially when you're on walks, noticing how the balls to your feet strike the

ground and just paying attention to that.

That way, you're not like outside of your body and feeling like it feels

unsafe or it doesn't feel brave for you.

I don't wanna say "safe" because safe means a lot of different things.

It's very subjective.

I think more "brave." It feels more brave to be in your body.

So just start paying attention to those small things.

And if it starts feeling too much, then back up.

Retreat.

Retreat, go back into that like mind-numbness.

Keep building in little increments.

Again, it's baby steps.

Working with your body, especially when it doesn't feel brave to be in

your body, takes a very long time.

It takes a lot of tears, it takes a lot of swearing.

I think I cussed for like years because my body just did not feel safe.

And I had to take baby steps.

Even like meditation was really hard.

It's going to take time.

Especially the more that your body feels unsafe, especially

people who are carrying trauma.

I don't say that I'm trauma-informed.

I say I'm more trauma-conscious.

I'm aware that people move in the world and have traumatic

experiences, and your body just sometimes carries the memories of it.

Our bodies do keep the score of that.

And so it takes a little bit of time to get your body used to the fact that it

is feeling brave, that it is feeling a little bit more brave in this moment.

And so again, it's baby steps.

It's taking the time to be patient, which is why I said grace

and capacity in the beginning.

Yeah.

My last guest, Shauna Bryant, is a breathwork, instructor, and

she talked about titration, like little bits to titrate up, which

is what I'm hearing from you also.

But I'd just love to hear a little bit about, you know, with all of the things

that you could do with your life and work and energy, why have you chosen

this kind of work that queers work?

Or what drew you to it?

For me, queers hold a special kind of magic, especially

like gender-expansive folks.

And for people who are not aware of my language, gender-expansive is

anybody who, doesn't really identify with the genders male and female.

They're kind of more out there, more expansive.

There's a lot of unfurling.

So that's what I call gender-expansive folks, because

again, possibility and curiosity.

It is legit one of the things that I prize and one of the things I value.

You know, you could be leveraging your skills and talent and everything that is

you in any millions of different fields, and you've chosen to work with people kind

of around their careers and the workplace.

So what drew you to doing this work in the workplace setting

and in the career setting?

So for me queers, they're a special kind of magic.

As somebody who identifies as queer, they're my people.

And before I was doing this work, I was working in community spaces, doing

prison abolition work, working with like formerly incarcerated queer people.

I originally started actually doing criminal justice policy.

That master's degree in policy came in.

And so I was doing, I was directing policy at a national level and I hated it.

Absolutely.

This was before like my gender unfurled, and I kind of unfolded that flag.

But buttoned-up suits?

It wasn't fitting my body.

And I knew even when I was getting that degree that it was just gonna be awful.

And then I was going to hate it.

I was gonna be able to do so much good, but it was not gonna be

something I was going to enjoy.

And I got lucky that I got to get to work in a nonprofit organization, and doing

like prison abolition work, because I did get a bit of that community stuff.

And, and it was good because I got to decide what policy looked like.

I still had to work on the hill and still had to influence like lobbyists

and reps and have long conversations and have to make compromises.

And you were just always trying to figure out where am

I drawing my line in the sand?

I always had to think critically about how much harm am I causing?

Is this going to cause harm long term?

What's the compromise that I have to make here?

And so I started looking at frameworks like transformative and restorative

justice, which takes that step forward and looks at like, what are all the

systemic ways in which harm is being caused, and how do we make repairs there?

And so as I was doing this working, kind of deepening my understanding of what

healing justice and transformative and restorative justice looks like, I started

realizing that I was not cut out to be making this change on a macro level.

Yes, I loved it.

And I love being able to make big impact like that.

I'm an introvert, but I'm also very personable.

I do love talking to people and I do like getting to know people.

I love to hold space for people.

I like hearing their stories and like helping them figure out how to move

in the world in a way where they don't feel like they have to be shamed or have

to be judged for things that they have done or experiences that they have had.

I wanted to do it on a micro level.

And I was like, there's not really anything going on in like

the coaching space right now.

This was around 2020-ish, 2021-ish.

So I was still working in nonprofit, and kind of building like a

spiritual coaching practice that was working with people like this.

And so I started doing just one-on-one work with people and helping them

figure out like, how do we do transformative justice at a micro level?

How do we do it on a person level?

And over time, it kind of evolved.

I'd already built my business.

I was like, okay, cool.

So now that I know there's lots of queers and spiritual people who are

building businesses, and yes, they want the transformative justice, that means

that I get to talk about social justice.

Now I get to talk about like how to be anti-racist, and

anti-capitalist, and anti-system.

And how do we build these into your businesses?

What does that look like?

And that's where I'm at, figuring out what all this looks like.

So roundabout story, how I got all into this is just like, queer people are magic.

And I want that magic to be shared with everybody.

And I want that magic to be shared in a way that feels good for whoever is

casting those spells and like making those potions, and in a way where they

feel celebrated and not exploited.

Because so many people who fall outside the norm of the cishet

patriarchy are being erased.

And they're having violence acted on, and there's just so much where their magic

and their specialness is getting dimmed.

And it's not to say that people aren't like lighting up, but trying to be in

that world where that constant pressure to be somebody that they're not, and being

forced to fit in a world that was never designed for them in the first place.

I don't want us to be sitting in that world.

I wanna break open that box, break open those binaries, and allow us to all move

in spaces where we feel celebrated, where we feel held, where we are well-resourced

to live the lives that we deserve.

Because this capitalist system has got to fucking go.

I'm fucking over it.

Like exploiting people, for what reason?

So some billionaire can have an extra $2 in their bank account?

Like for what reason?

One of the things that I've enjoyed so much in watching your work since

we connected, is the role that your organizing background plays in.

A lot of our people internalize, "what's wrong with me?" Like, that was the

voice in my head for a long, long time.

"What's wrong with me at work?

What's wrong with me that I can't just chill the fuck out, what's wrong with me

that I can't understand what's expected of me?" You know, it's that steady

stream of "what's wrong with me?" voices.

I recognized finally that there was nothing wrong with me.

I was in environments that weren't fertile for me, and I could

create an environment that is.

What I love about your organizing background is there's so little attention

paid to actually recognizing the act of harm that happens in workplaces.

Your approach and the way that you work with people, your experience with trying

to write actual harms from your organizing background, comes through in how you see

people in their work and in their careers.

And I just think that's really special.

I think there's so much focus placed on the individual pulling themselves up, and

so little focus on the active recovery from harm and recognition of harm that

happens in workplaces and in careers.

That's just one of the things that I really enjoy seeing about what you do.

Thank you.

I'm so tired of seeing people try to fit in spaces too small for their brilliance.

There are just so many people who are brilliant and who are smart and who

are so very capable and have the skills and the knowledge and the capacity

to do so much good in this world.

Sometimes it just feels like the world has just gotten to them and

that light has gotten really dim.

I can still see it.

I want this for you.

I wanna be able to see people like turn that light on.

I want them to open up like a flower.

I want them to bloom into the person that they know themselves to be.

They just need a little help for remembering it.

They need a little nudge to remember that they've always been this way.

Just the world got to them.

And so we just need to unmake the world a little bit so they

can find their own place here.

I also think it's important among my listenership, it's a really broad swath

of people, and there are gonna be people who are really excited to hear us talking

about queerness, and then there are gonna be people who are like, what the fuck?

I think it's really important.

people who aren't a part of the queer community, might listen to part of this

conversation and think it's not for them.

And what I'm saying is it is absolutely for you too, because all of us need

that connection with self and that unfurling that you're talking about.

Queer for me is anybody who is looking at the system and realizing

that they don't fit and they want to do something about not fitting.

They see that there are issues and that there are challenges and that there

are very real problems, the Holocaust that's happening in Palestine, the

ICE raids that were happening in LA, everything that's happening in Sudan

and Congo, and just all of these things.

If you see these things and you know that there is something that

is deeply disturbing and not okay about that, and you are actively

working towards dismantling that and doing something to, bring about

change, then I see you as queer.

If you're seeing the world and realizing that it's not perfect and you wanna do

something about it, and you are doing something about it, then for me that's

queer enough because you're, you're legitimately queering the system.

You're changing the system.

You're transforming it into something that it's never been before.

Yeah.

I think the part of why I am so grateful that we've like that we intersected is.

I even struggle with the term "goal setting".

Like I want to come up with something other than the term "goal setting"

to describe what we're talking about.

Because when we talk about goal setting, we think about external accomplishment or

achievement of that one specific thing.

In my work and my world, and I think in yours, when we talk about goal setting,

we're talking about tapping into what we know deeply to be true and important

within to point us in the direction of learning, growth, self-knowing, curiosity.

It's like the furthest thing from what most people think of

when they think of goal setting.

And I felt really alone in that.

Like, what is it with me that when I think about goal setting,

I see it so differently?

And so it's just been really fun to find someone else who, when we talk about

goal setting, we can talk about it in this completely different way together.

Yeah, I love it.

Yeah, and I've really enjoyed this conversation.

But I also love that that's kind of like queer, queering biz.

It's like redefining words and redefining spaces, making them our own, and claiming

our power and claiming our sovereignty.

And just saying, this is mine.

And I'm like, well, we've already reclaimed queer.

Can we reclaim goals?

Like, can we just reclaim it?

I mean, not to like put a totally cheesy point on it, but

we're queering goal setting.

Right, we are.

And we're not alone.

I know, but yeah, I'm still having like a very like, bodily

reaction to the word goal.

Like I just, feel like I just wanna like hairball, I just wanna choke on it.

Because I spend more time now in the motorcycle racing, it's like I spend

so much time now on the sports side of things where goal setting is like we're

talking about the process of becoming.

It is not the destination.

I don't have that visceral reaction to the term goal setting anymore, but I do

just wish there was a way to distinguish what we're talking about from that term.

Yeah.

And now I'm like, maybe it's just, what are you becoming?

What if it's not goal setting?

What if it's just becoming, what are you becoming?

That, yeah, that just gave me goosebumps.

I like that idea, like becoming, instead of goal setting.

Yeah, I like that too.

Well, I think that's the perfect note.

I know you have a launch going right now, if people wanna connect with

you or they wanna hear more about your work, where can they find you?

I'm super excited because by the time this episode comes out, I will

have my Instagram nine-grid, So like that would be the good space.

But I am, its_mxzephy across all social.

So that's I-T-S underscore M-X Z-E-P-H-Y across all of them.

I'm more on Threads than I am anywhere else, but I have been

showing up on Instagram Stories because I can do talking heads.

I am launching something called the Aligned as Fuck Biz Clinic.

So I'm in the middle of launching it now There's so much

collective care built into it.

10% of every sale goes to an organization that people vote on.

Every tenth session goes to somebody who needs it, and then there's also

a 20-minute follow up that people can have, but they can donate that

20-minute to somebody who needs it.

Collective care is the business plan, and it's making sure that we are all taken

care of and we are all well-resourced.

And the only way we can do that is by both taking care of ourselves and then turning

around and taking care of everybody else.

Thank you so much for making the time.

This is so awesome.

Thank you for having me.

I really appreciate it.

This has been a lot of fun.

It's actually been the highlight of my day.

That shift from goal setting to becoming — I am gonna be sitting

with that one for a while.

If you found yourself nodding along during our critique of SMART goals, or

if Zeph's SLIC Method resonates with you, I would love to hear about it.

You can find me on most social media platforms @saralobkovich or

email me at sara@thinkydoers.com.

You can find Zeph across all social platforms @its_mxzephy.

Zeph is most active on Threads where we met, but you'll also find

them sharing wisdom on Instagram.

If you have questions, suggestions, or would like to connect, you

can always find me at findrc.co or on any social media platform.

I'm pretty sure I'm the only Sara Lobkovich out there.

And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Thinkydoers

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