Work the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous with a biblical worldview in mind. Find series resources at https://www.pursuegod.org/steps-to-recovery-series.

Speaker 2 00:01:12 Us? Yeah, yeah. I, I I think that a lot of people, uh, are in denial, um, about whether they're addicts or not, or maybe they're confused because maybe they haven't had as many life consequences yet, you know, or they're able to maintain a certain lifestyle without getting into too much trouble. Not everybody has the same severity, but, um, I, I like to ask seven questions. There's probably more than this, but, um, questions I would ask to help a person understand whether they're addicted or not is one is, do I use something to cope with feelings? Another one is, do I use something to escape reality? Do I use something as a personal reward? Um, do I use something to be social? Do I use something weekly or daily? Do I use something illegally or over the prescribed dose? And do I use something to get buzzed or drunk? And so I think that all people probably struggle with some kind of compulsion, obsession, addiction. And, and a lot of people would probably answer yes to those, but depending on what it is is, or the severity of it would, would help a person understand whether they, they need to be more serious about this topic of

Speaker 3 00:02:46 Well, um, my own addiction, I, I've al I've struggled with sexual addiction, um, in my past. And, and I know there's all kinds of, uh, different addictions like that kind of the, you know, we could call 'em like process addictions. There's, there's food addictions, um, shopping, uh, there, there's a lot more than just the typical ones that we think about when it, you know, we think about alcohol or drugs, um, and they can be just as destructive, a lot of 'em. So, um, my personal story with, with sexual addiction, it really, you know, these questions that, that we asked to determine if something is an addiction or not. Um, I did, I used, I used a lot of these things, pornography and things as a coping mechanism, and I didn't really ask these questions to myself. When I started out. It was, you know, I knew it was something that, that probably wasn't good.

Speaker 1 00:04:11 Yeah. What's the mindset, guys? And maybe you can go back to your addictions, your struggles with this. What's the mind, what are the, some of the lies that you tell yourself early on? It might be helpful for someone who's listening to this who might be thinking, no, I don't know if I have an addiction. I'm not sure if I have an addiction. I'm sure there are some listening to this who are saying that others know exactly what their problem is. Um, maybe they've even gone to recovery groups, but there might be some listening that have never gone to recovery group. They've never, they wouldn't view themselves of an as an addict. Right. And so, even that list you read, Eric, might be a little bit of an eye opener for someone. What, what were some of the lies that you told yourselves early on in your addiction? Mark, yours was with, uh, sex, sex addiction. Um, Eric, yours was with, with drugs mm-hmm. . And so we've got kind of a representation of a couple of those here. So what are some lies you told yourself early on?

Speaker 1 00:06:05 And Eric, how old were you when you first started messing with drugs and, and alcohol?

Speaker 1 00:07:25 Mark, when we'll hear more of that story mm-hmm. over the next 12 weeks, Eric, but Mark, for you, what were some of the li for with the sex addiction and porn addiction? What are some of the lies then that you were telling yourself in that time?

Speaker 1 00:08:34 So Mark for you, yeah. You said you feel repulse, and I've talked to guys with sex addictions about this, and it seems like, especially for Christians, for people who, and I don't know, were you a Christian when you first started the addiction? No. But you still knew it was wrong? I

Speaker 1 00:08:51 That's

Speaker 1 00:09:06 Okay. So you were repulsed at first, but over time, the more you did it did, were you, did that feeling of being repulsed lessen over time? Did you, did your heart get hardened a little bit to it over time?

Speaker 1 00:09:43 Well, so again, in this, over the next 12 weeks in this series on the podcast, we're going to be, um, talking through these 12 steps. I don't think there's anything particularly magical about the 12 steps. I just know that they've really helped people. Wouldn't you guys agree that the, the real power behind, obviously the real power behind it is, is God, right? We'll talk about this as we go, but it's also then just being honest about it, right. Finally being willing to talk about it. So there are some people, I'm sure, listening to the podcast that we're, the, the podcast is safe. You know, maybe somebody shared this podcast with them, or they stumbled across it, they searched for whatever, and, and they're like, well, it's safe for me to listen to these guys. So, and I, and that's good. I want it. I want this to be a safe place.

Speaker 1 00:11:18 It doesn't mean you, you don't struggle. You don't, you don't, you know, want to kind of go back to the old ways. But we're gonna be talking about that, that I think over these 12 weeks that the goal is sustained victory. It's, it always bugged me that alcoholics always have to call themselves alcoholics. Now, I'm not an alcoholic, but I have a lot of alcoholism in my family. And so I, but as a follower of Jesus, maybe you guys could help me with this as a follower of Jesus, I'm like, no, if you've been made a new creation, you're a new creation. You're a new creature in Jesus Christ. So, but still, there's something about being, about calling yourself an a recovering addict, right? That is, that is helpful. Mm-hmm. . Right? And so maybe before we even jump into step number one, you guys could speak to that for a second.

Speaker 2 00:12:53 But, um, but, but in all reality, I think at first it kind of is, it's just about being real about what my struggle is. Mm-hmm. , you know, I'm just naming it out loud in front of everybody, and that's what happens. Or at least in my life, one thing that I real, I, I feel really blessed about, um, that other people might not be able to fully understand about me, but it's, I feel comfortable being transparent. Mm-hmm. , I feel comfortable telling people my faults. Sometimes it's probably uncomfortable for people , but I, I'm comfortable laying it all out on the table before people, because I started off going to groups at a young age, you know, court ordered, and not, and part of this talking gift that I have must have came out in these, these groups where we had to just talk. And so now I'm a preacher, and I talk and I tell people all about my sins and how Jesus saved me from those.

Speaker 1 00:14:28 But, and, uh, maybe the thing as a pastor, the thing that bothers me about that is, and, and let me at least say this, you guys can correct me cuz I rec, I recognize I'm ignorant. Ignorant. You guys do ministry in these groups, so you understand this so much better than I do. So maybe you just need to set me straight. But what I want to tell people is that is not your identity. Like, yes, you should say, I'm a recovering addict. You should not ever get to the point where you feel like you're beyond temptation, and you could never fall back into an addiction. I, I understand that. I think the thing that I just would, would want people to hear is when you've come to faith in Jesus, and we'll talk about that time and time again for, for listeners who, who don't know what we're even talking about.

Speaker 3 00:15:58 No, I think there's a, there's a point that you're, that you're making That is true. I think, and, and even, you know, early on, you know, when I first started coming to Eric's recovery group, it, it was something that Eric did talk about that, that, you know, that's not your identity. Mm-hmm. , you, you know, being an addict is not your identity. And in fact, I remember Eric talking in groups sometimes identifying himself as, I'm a recovering addict saved by grace or something like that. And, and, you know, it was always, he was coming up. Good job, Eric, the new one every time. And it was always, it was always good. Right? Good. Because, good job. Cause it really did kind of keep us in that mindset of, yes, I've got this, this problem, um, but it's not my identity. But I think, like Eric was talking about, there's this level of humility that we wanna maintain too.

Speaker 1 00:17:25 Yeah. That's good. All right. I receive it. I received that guys. Mm-hmm. . I, I, I can see it your way now. All right. So let's jump into step number one.

Speaker 1 00:17:42 Well, and you know, the truth is, we, we, we almost invited a fourth guy into this, around the table here cuz he's addicted to Diet Coke, he said. And so I thought, you know, maybe we do ha need to have a guy because really addiction, you know, addiction, you guys, I'm sure say it in your groups, but anyone, anyone can be addicted. You could be addicted to just negative thinking. You could be addicted to selfishness, you could be addicted to TV or whatever. But these things that maybe someone wouldn't label as such a, such a problem. And so you probably don't see these kinds of people showing up to your groups. Right. But I do think that this conversation can benefit everybody. And so let's, let's jump into these again, these 12 steps that what these were, these were invented, what, back in the 1950s, I think.

Speaker 2 00:19:10 Well, the, the first step in, in 12 steps is it's, uh, admitting that we're powerless over our addiction and that our lives had become unmanageable. So it's really the, the step that comes to say, um, the reality about where we're at in our lives right now. Right. Step number one is for someone who, um, needs to admit that thing that we were just talking about. Are you an addict or not? Are you addicted? Do you have issues or not? Right? So, so that really ties into what we were just talking about is admitting that you have a problem. That's really the, the first step.

Speaker 3 00:19:58 Uh, I think this, um, this is one of the two hardest phases I think, in addiction because, um, for so long, I know personally I wanted to not face this fact of how lost I was. And, and that, and it's something that I see over and over people who come to our groups getting to this point of, of really recognizing how powerless I am over this thing and how unmanageable my life is. The, the chaos that we've created, you know, it, it's just hard because our pride doesn't want us to get to that place. You know, the, the, the flesh that we live in just has this pride that we don't want to admit that we don't have control over this. We don't want to admit that I can't fix this on, on my own. Mm-hmm. . And so this, for me, um, it's, it comes to this level of, of desperation almost of, of having so much loss and, and just seeing so much chaos that you, I'm finally, I'm finally defeated, I guess I would say. Hmm. I'm finally defeated and that's where God can finally step in and start to do some work.

Speaker 3 00:21:19 For me, it was, um, as all of the secrets and lies that I had been hiding for so long started to come out, um, my wife started to, to, to learn things and to find and discover all these things. And, and I came to the point where I, I realized, um, that my, my life was a mess. My marriage honestly was dead. Um, it wasn't what I pretended it was. Um, and I realized that after years of trying to overcome this on my own, through my own sheer willpower, that I was, I was powerless. And I, there was nothing I could do to overcome this on my own.

Speaker 3 00:22:24 Right. Yeah. No, and that's one of the, I I think, you know, that's one of the, the scary things right? Is getting caught. But it's also, it's a, it's a blessing. Mm mm-hmm. , because I didn't have the courage on my own. I just, I just didn't, there was no way I could come out with this stuff on my own. I had buried too much. I had too many secrets, too many skeletons in the closet that I was never gonna come out with this. And so God was gracious enough to have me get caught.

Speaker 2 00:23:32 Well, I, I think that we all think that we're gonna eventually solve the problem. And it hasn't happened yet. Right. And so this step's about having the humility to recognize I can't solve this problem on my own. And so, you know, there's this idea about fear of the Lord. Um, if, if, if we don't do things the way he wants us to do, then he'll eventually put obstacles in our way, uh, out of love, like you said, a blessing to push us along the way in which we should go. Um, but it's always better to discipline yourself rather than to have someone else discipline you. Right?

Speaker 3 00:24:28 Well, I think if I had been completely honest the first time I got caught with everything, I wouldn't have gone down the rabbit hole as far as I did. Mm-hmm. and I, it probably would've been, um, easier to restore my marriage. Mm-hmm. it would've been, you know, I could have gotten a handle on this a lot sooner. Um, there wouldn't have been as much chaos and destruction. There was a lot of, it wasn't just my wife that I hurt mm-hmm. . I mean, there was a trail of people all throughout it. So yeah. I mean there's, there's just a lot less that that could have occurred if I had, um, been able to have the courage to come out with it. Mm-hmm. the first time.

Speaker 2 00:25:53 Yeah. And I, I think that concept will come out, uh, when we get through the steps, like into, when it gets into step, uh, eight and nine, when we talk about, um, repentance, what's the word? Making amends. Making amends. Yes. Uh, but there is a, a sense in which what I have always taught people is that people are willing to forgive a person who comes out and is honest versus, um, a person that gets found out. Right. Because you've all heard that saying before you're just sorry cuz he got caught. Right. Right. Um, versus, you know, nobody's perfect. Um, and I think God desires a heart that we would, we would come to him and say, I've sinned against you. I've done this wrong against you. And he, and he, and he says, if, if we confess that he, he forgives it mm-hmm. . Um, and so especially if your family member or friend is a Christian, um, there is a sense and duty in which that if, if you go to them and confess your sin, that they ought to forgive. Mm-hmm. , there's an accountability. Mm-hmm. that they should forgive. Doesn't mean that they're not gonna be heard about it. And there might not still be consequences, but I do think the consequences are gonna be a lot less because as you said, it's easier to trust a person that says it when they didn't need to versus getting caught.

Speaker 3 00:27:32 Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. In fact, um, for me, it came down to, you know, the first time I got caught, I, I came out with, I admitted to everything that I knew I needed to admit to that, you know, was already known about, but I didn't come out with everything. And in fact, it took me falling back into my addiction even deeper and, and everything. And, and getting to the point where I realized that my marriage was not the most important relationship in my life. When I realized that I needed God more than anything else, um, that's when I was finally given the courage to tell everything to my wife. And I knew as I went into that, that that was going to be the end of my marriage. I knew, um, just, just because, you know, I know, I know my wife. I, I know everything that she's already been through.

Speaker 1 00:29:06 And the irony or the blessing, or maybe irony's not the right word, the outcome was you've got both.

Speaker 1 00:29:46 Now, Eric with a drug addiction, with a, with an alcohol addiction, a lot of times you can't hide that. Right. So, mark, with your addiction, it was, it was hidden, I would imagine from your wife for quite a while. Mm-hmm. . And maybe she wasn't aware, maybe she saw signs here and there, but she didn't, that's different than a guy. A guy walks into his house stumbling drunk or Right. Or clearly you're not yourself. You are, there's something wrong. There's something going on, what you, what's happening. Right. So, so maybe speak to that a little bit. Is it, is it hard? Am I, am I being naive? Is it, is it harder to hide a drug or alcohol addiction?

Speaker 2 00:31:28 That was probably the case in for me. Um, especially when using, you know, when when you are so addicted to something that you'll, you'll spend all your money for it and you'll spend all your time trying to get it. Um, eventually you're not taking care of your body. You're not taking care of yourself. And so it's gonna be visible. It's gonna be visible in your eyes, in your face, in your, your skin tone, and sometimes your teeth, you know? And so really it's, it's tough to hide, but now that I'm, I'm clean and sober, um, they say that we have a sixth sense , a sixth sense, and it, it's like almost like, uh, a discernment gift or something like that, that I have, but it, it's kind of crazy. I can, when some people won't notice that somebody's on something, I can, uh, just because I don't, I, I can't fully understand, uh, explain it. Other than that I knew when I was trying to hide it, I thought I was getting one over on everybody and I probably was. Um, but not everybody, especially when the consequences started happening. Right. Like, not making it to work on time, running outta money, lying, you know, all that type of stuff that happens as a

Speaker 3 00:33:39 Well, that's, I mean, that's, that's a tough one. Yeah. Right. I mean, it really is, it's tough for all of us to understand, you know, exactly what we can do to help somebody in that situation, because it does come down to, uh, you know, an individual recognizing their powerlessness. Yeah. And that's, that has to be their recognition. Um, but I think just keeping conversation going mm-hmm. , um, continuing to encourage vulnerability and openness and expressing love, um, through it all. One of the things that I've noticed, and, and you know, this is just for my own experience, is, um, as a parent, being vulnerable with, with our kids helps them to feel comfortable to share struggles that they might have.

Speaker 3 00:34:35 Yep. So for me, that's, that's kind of the approach that I've taken. And I'm, you know, we've, we've experienced a lot of things that, in my marriage, that the kids were, were a witness to, you know mm-hmm. , they, they knew exactly what was going on. And so I think that's, that's helped. And, and thankfully we haven't heard of, you know, or witnessed any, anything like that, but they have been able to share things that I think maybe they would've been uncomfortable with. Mm-hmm. if we weren't as vulnerable as we are. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 00:35:56 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, there is a certain concern and fear that because what I went through, um, was not ideal for anybody to have to go through. I don't want to see my own kids do that. I have a, a teenager now, and I got, you know, two other boys and one on the way, you know, and so I, I am learning how to balance, um, you know, this, this intuition I have, you know, over paranoia, mm-hmm. a little bit. But I, you know, it is hard for me to, to trust like, you know, humanity because like, you know, the Bible is clear that we all struggle, we all struggle with this sin and this flesh flesh nature. And so that's my number one thing that I, that's my worldview. I look out there, I look at my family members, I look at people and I say people are capable of the worst.

Speaker 2 00:37:50 But there's also, yeah, I've taken it too far and, you know, maybe been a, a bit too strict, um, not allowing my kids to have, you know, some, some fun sometimes because I'm worried that, you know, if they go to this party, they might be exposed to something mm-hmm. . Um, but really I think the best way is to train them up so that when they do go and be around something, because you can't protect them forever mm-hmm. , when they are around something, they have the tools that they need, um, they're prepared and they know that you love them. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so when you first asked that question, I thought to myself, you know, how can, how could, uh, you soften the blow when asking a question to try to, to get someone to admit to you what they're doing? I think it's first and foremost helping them understand, no matter how you answer, I love you. No matter how this turns out. I love you, and it might be hard for me, but it's gonna be better for you and me in the long run if we, uh, get this out in the open.

Speaker 1 00:39:40 He says, I don't really understand myself. And so for those of you listening, just listen to Paul's words. And here's a guy that is one of the most influential Christians in the history of the world. And ev and I love this because even he says this in his, in his letter to the Romans, he says, I don't really understand myself for I wanna do what it's right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do what I hate, but if I know what I'm doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law, you know, the legal code, the morality is, is good. He says, so I'm not the one doing wrong. It's the sin living in me that does it. And he says, and I know verse 18, and I know that nothing good lives in me, that is in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can't.

Speaker 3 00:41:34 Yeah. I mean, , that, that right there, that's my, that's my story, right? I, I know what I'm doing is wrong. I know that I don't want to do it, and yet I continue to do it because really, I'm, I'm a slave to it. I am a slave to this thing, and I have no way of overcoming this. That's, that's really where, where Paul is at, is, is what he's talking about right here, is, there's nothing I can do about this. Mm-hmm. , I live with this, this sin nature. I live with this, this power over me that wants to do wrong, that wants to do evil, and there's nothing in my own strength I can do to overcome this. Right? And that's what step one is all about. And so that's why this, this is so relatable to this step.

Speaker 2 00:42:37 He says, thanks be to, you know, Jesus Christ, my Lord. Um, that that's the solution. That thank God that Jesus Christ came to save me. Thank God that I don't have to be perfect and do what's right every single time. Um, because Jesus Christ took my place of that perfection that God requires for anyone to be in relationship with him. But yet, but God loved us so much. The famous verse, you know, he sent his only begotten son so that we who believe in him can have eternal life. Um, he sent his son to, to set us free from that slavery that Paul is talking about. He, it's like he's, he's, he's, he's in this shame cycle that he's got of himself saying, man, I, you know, I know what God wants me to do, but, but, but yet I have this other desire. And every time I try to stop myself from doing it, I just end up slipping.

Speaker 1 00:44:58 Well, now we're stepping into week two. Mm-hmm. , because step two, which we'll cover next time, is to believe in a greater power. And so I hate to do this to our listeners, to leave them hanging on verse 24, where Paul is just, just beside himself. But in verse 25, like you said, Eric, he says, the answer is Jesus. And we're gonna talk about that next time when we cover step two. But for those of you listening, if you want to talk more about this, if you wanna talk about this with a friend, with a small group, with a mentor, you can find this podcast along with a video, a short video, and some discussion questions, and some of these talking points. You can find it all@pursuegod.org. Just go into the search section there and search for step one and you'll find it. And then join us next time, because next time we're gonna talk about that second step toward recovery from addiction. These guys, mark and Eric will be with me and we'll talk about what the Bible says about who that better, that greater power is that can save you. And it's not just that higher pow power isn't just the light bulb above your head, right? So you have to come tune in next time to hear about that. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.