When everyone else seems connected and you feel like you’re on the outside looking in, Jesus reminds us that we were made to belong.

Episode Summary

The holidays are supposed to be filled with family, connection, joy, and celebration—but what happens when your real life doesn’t look anything like the picture-perfect version you see on Christmas cards, movies, and social media?

Pastor Kurt Ingram joins Willow for an honest conversation about loneliness, belonging, broken relationships, and our deep human need for connection. Kurt explains that the holidays often magnify the distance between what we hoped our relationships would look like and what they actually are. That gap can leave us feeling even more disconnected during a season when it seems like everyone else belongs somewhere.

But beneath our longing for the perfect gathering is something much deeper: we want to know that we belong.

Kurt takes us back to the heart of the Christmas story and reminds us that Jesus didn’t enter a picture-perfect scene. He entered the mess of humanity. God came near so that we would know our worth, experience His presence, and understand that we are invited into His family—not once we have everything together, but right in the middle of our mess.

Willow and Kurt also talk about the complicated reality of relationships that have been wounded by conflict, rejection, trauma, grief, or loss. Kurt offers wisdom for holding two things at once: healthy boundaries and hope for reconciliation. We don’t have to pretend everything is okay or put ourselves back into unsafe situations simply because it’s the holidays. But we also don’t have to give up believing that God is capable of bringing healing and restoration.

And when the family or community we long for isn’t available to us, Kurt encourages us not to wait passively for belonging to find us. Connection requires risk and vulnerability. Sometimes we need to accept an invitation that doesn’t look like what we imagined, reach out to someone ourselves, or create space at our own table for someone else who is longing to belong too.

If you’ve ever felt lonely in a crowded room, disconnected from family, disappointed by the holidays, or like you’re looking through the window at everyone else’s belonging, this conversation is a reminder that you have a place with Jesus—and you can help create that sense of belonging for someone else.

Meet Kurt Ingram

Kurt Ingram is the pastor of Roosevelt Community Church in Bellingham, Washington. Throughout his years in ministry, Kurt has served with Young Life, pastored in Philadelphia, lived in the jungle of Peru, and now serves his community in the Pacific Northwest.

Kurt has a heart for people who are marginalized, forgotten, or feel like their voices aren’t being heard. As Willow shares, he is someone who “practices what he preaches” and lives out his faith through the way he welcomes and cares for others.

Key Takeaways

• When your holidays don’t match your expectations: Let go of the pressure to create the perfect experience. Sometimes the fantasy of what the holidays should be makes the reality hurt even more.
• When you feel like you don’t belong: Remember that your longing for connection is deeply human. We were created for relationship—with God and with one another.
• When you feel pressure to pretend: Real belonging doesn’t require you to hide what you’re actually experiencing. Pretending to be someone you’re not can deepen disconnection rather than heal it.
• When a relationship is broken: Tell the truth. Reconciliation doesn’t mean ignoring hurt, eliminating necessary boundaries, or pretending something didn’t happen.
• When someone is unsafe: Give yourself permission to create distance. You can protect yourself while still remaining open to the possibility that God can bring repentance, healing, and restoration.
• When you’re waiting to be included: Show up. Accept an invitation, reach out to a friend, invite someone for coffee, or create your own gathering. The connection you’re longing for may require vulnerability and initiative.
• When God feels far away: Look for Him in the mess rather than only in the beautiful moments. Emmanuel means God with us—in our pain, disappointment, loneliness, laughter, joy, and unmet expectations.
• When you notice someone else on the outside: Welcome them in. Jesus continually made people who felt marginalized, broken, and unwanted know that they belonged before they had everything figured out.

How This Episode Will Encourage You

You don’t have to manufacture the perfect holiday to experience meaningful connection.

Maybe your family looks different than you hoped. Maybe a relationship is broken. Maybe grief has left an empty seat at your table. Maybe you’re waiting for someone to invite you in—or wondering whether anyone notices that you’re lonely.

Kurt reminds us that belonging often begins with risk, vulnerability, presence, and welcome.

Instead of comparing your life to what you see through someone else’s window, look around at what—and who—is already in front of you. Be willing to show up. Invite someone in. Share what you have. And remember that the heart of Christmas is a God who entered our messy world to say: You belong. You are welcome. You are family.

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Welcome to the Collide Podcast. We're a growing community of everyday chicks colliding with Jesus in our mess, our pain, our joy, and our stories.

We value showing up as we truly are.

So that's what you'll find here, walls and masks being torn down so that we can allow Jesus to meet us where we truly are and hear about other women doing the same. We can't wait to collide with you.

We are incomplete if we try to do this by ourself. And going back to that lyric from oh Holy Night that when Jesus appears, the soul feels its worth because the soul can't find its worth on its own.

We can't do this on our own. There is a way in which being human requires relationship.

Hey there. Hope you're having a great day. Welcome to the Collide Podcast.

I'm Willow Weston, the founder and director of Collide, and if you hop on this podcast regularly and you love it, we think you're also going to love all the other resources we have on our website, which you can hop on at wecollide.net we have blog posts, digital downloads, playlists, stories, video messages, Bible studies, and so much more that we've curated for you with so many resources on topics like grief and purpose, parenting, hope, anxiety, relationships, and so many other things. So go check out our website and today I am super excited about this podcast. I've invited Kurt Ingram on. Kurt is a friend of mine.

He also pastors a local congregation called Roosevelt Community Church in the town I live in in Bellingham, Washing, the Pacific Northwest. And the thing I love about Kurt is that he practices what he preaches. He's a man who lives the message.

He has an amazing, beautiful family, love his wife Carol. They have two amazing kids. And he has spent years in ministry, both serving on Young Life staff.

He's been a pastor in Philadelphia, he's lived in the jungle of Peru, and he now pastors in in the Pacific Northwest here. He has a huge heart for the marginalized, the forgotten, and those whose voice is not heard.

And he thinks deeply about Jesus and I invited him on on purpose in this series that we're in. So, Kurt, it is so fun to have you on the podcast today and I'm really excited to have a conversation with you.

We're smack dab in the middle of a podcast series on engaging people during the holidays with what's really going on in their lives. And I specifically asked you to come on and talk about these feelings of feeling disconnected sometimes during the holidays.

And I knew that you were the perfect person to hop on and have this conversation with me. So thanks for being here today.

Yeah. Thanks for inviting me, Willow.

Yeah. I think you and I probably can resonate with. To this idea more than we. We even want to say we can. But so much at Christmas.

Sometimes our great longing to feel connected with others, combined with the reality of deep feelings of disconnection, often get peaked during Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's, all of these gatherings and parties and celebrations when we see what other people are up to and how connected they look or seem.

And I wanted to ask you both, in your work with people as a pastor, but also in your own life, how do you see our longing to be connected pop up in the holidays? And how do you see our reality of feeling disconnected also pop up?

Yeah, I mean, I think the main thing is really in our expectations.

Like, we have these built expectations around the holiday of, oh, we're going to be together as family, and it's going to be warm and nice and full of joy and kind of like the movies or Christmas cards or people's pictures on social media, you know, but, like, that's just not our reality.

And I think the biggest thing is when people really feel like the weight of my reality doesn't match all these kind of pictures of what other people are saying. It's like. And I think there's so much dissonance and pain there.

Like, we as a society or as a culture or even locally, you know, we've set up this idea of, you know, Christmas is the time where, like, you get your perfect little Christmas picture and you gather together and you like it. Like, we. It's almost like we're creating this fantasy of who we wish we could be.

But, like, those of us who have, like, hurt and brokenness or in places where there's conflict, like, there's almost something about faking it that makes it hurt worse. Like, there's almost something about, like, this, like, no, I want this perfect life.

I want this, like, party, this great Thanksgiving meal, this great Christmas thing that almost sets us up for more failure. And I think a lot of people feel that sense and, like, long for something that isn't real.

And what they're really longing for is, like, this deeper connection and a sense of belonging and a sense of, like, you know, like, this is where I fit in. And, like, people want to celebrate and want joy, but there's just, like.

Like, I think real joy and real belonging, like, leads us into conflict, not away from it.

And so I think the more we want that it actually, like, Christmas time is the time, and the holidays is a time where we end up finding ourselves actually diving into the conflict we're trying to avoid. Like, there's some kind of gravitational pull that we can't quite get what we want.

And the more we go for it, the more it pulls us into, you know, our stories of dysfunction and pain and drama and, like, it.

Like, I think that dissonance between some sort of picture of what we think it ought to be like and the real experience we're feeling, like it just comes out. We feel it deeper in these holidays.

It's so interesting to me because you said so many things. I can totally resonate with what you just said. You bring up expectations and how some of our longing is sort of.

We notice it more because we have these high expectations. And you say it's almost like we're creating a fantasy of who we wish we were. Where do you think these expectations come from?

I mean, you mentioned social media, but what else is creating these, like, expectations that we would have these sort of, like, perfect, close, you know, deep, peaceful, meaningful experiences, you know, every two days with. With family and friends during the holidays?

Yeah. I mean, I think that part of it is we create it because it's what we want.

You know, like, there's something in us that actually really wants just one moment like that, especially in the midst of, you know, the darkness of Christmas.

And I think even more this year, after going through kind of a divisive election season and in the middle of coronavirus, like, there's this desire that, oh, let's have this one moment where we pretend like the world isn't raging and falling apart and chaotic and painful. And I think that from Christmas cards to movies to just all the ways we've been told, somehow we've believed that that's possible.

In this moment, there's a narrative kind of around Christmas, and I think it comes from really, the Christmas story is the birth of Jesus inviting us to understand that God came to us because he wants us to be family and have a place of belonging. So at the heart of Christmas is this idea of belonging and that God is inviting us into family.

And so, like, there's this leaning into, like, the darkness of winter and the shortest day of the year and all this stuff. And we're working through it.

And so in the midst of that, we're longing for this type of peace that isn't real peace, you know, like, that we're longing for this thing to be resolved. And I Think we just have this picture because, man, if we could get that, maybe I wouldn't feel all the pain or loneliness or hurt.

So, like, it really is a kind of like, I want to escape. Like, I want. Like this is a season especially, like, I want that escape.

And I want this picture of whatever for each of us it is that I've created around this is what a perfect family would look like.

And what if for one day we could be that without really thinking about what's the cost of us pretending to be that for one day instead of dealing with the reasons why we aren't that?

Talk to us more about, you know, not that, I mean, but in a sense, you almost are whittling down, you know, that Christmas is really about belonging, that God, you know, came and wanted us to know that we belong and we're a part of a family. Talk to us a little bit more about that. I love that.

Yeah. Well, you know, actually I was the other day I was listening to Father Greg Boyd, Gregory Boyd out of la.

I don't know if you've read or heard of him, but in a bunch of his sermons, he references oh, Holy Night. So, like, there's this line in O Holy Night that says, long lay the world in sin and error pining till he appeared and the soul felt its worth.

A thrill of hope, the weary world rejoices for yonder breaks a new and glorious morn. But there's this line in that till he appeared and the soul felt its worth. And I think, like, that's. That.

That's getting at that sense of belonging, right?

That like, God so wanted us to know that we were invited into his family and so wanted us to know what kind of father he was and so wanted us, like, to see, like, to be invited into this. Like, he came and became one of us. Word made flesh, like, moved into our neighborhood.

And so I think when we celebrate on Christmas morning that Jesus was born, like, we even look at that story and it's nothing. Like, there's no white picket fence. There's no pretty, you know, table setting. There's no people in, like, tucked in shirts and hair done up.

Like, this is a mess.

This is, you know, blood and birth and cries and dirty diapers and that black goo that comes out of babies and in the middle of, like, where sheep live and you can smell the manure and the hay. And then, like dirty shepherds who've been out in the field all night come and they're the ones saying congratulations.

Like, you have this mess of this thing that isn't inviting us into anything like the picture we might imagine of the perfect Christmas, but is actually inviting us. No, like, you belong with all your mess and all your pain and all this stuff, like, God came to be one of you and invite you into this.

It's in this, when Jesus appears, that the soul feels its worth. And we realize we belong.

And we belong to God, and we realize others belong to us not because of any kind of perfection or any kind of way that people perceive or look at us, but because this is God come to save us.

You know, it's interesting to listen to you talk because I think when we feel deeply disconnected in the holidays, when that longing to feel connected is peaked, that's this. This sense that we want to know we belong somewhere.

And for a lot of us, I think we've had experiences that have made us really question, like, do we belong anywhere? Does anyone notice us? Does anyone care? Does anyone remember, do we have a place that is family?

And I wonder, you know, you do so much work as a pastor with people. What do you see as some of the greatest causes of disconnection in relationship with others or causes that.

That make us, as adults, still wonder and if we belong?

Yeah, one. And, like, even as you were saying that. Sorry, just to take a little rabbit trail is, like, I was thinking about it, like, being, like, a hunger.

So when I smell pecan pie cooking in my kitchen, like, my. I, like, doesn't matter if I'm really full or not. Like, I get hungry and I want it, and I can smell it, you know, like. And I love it.

But imagine being someone, like, on a street, smelling it, looking through a glass window and knowing you can't have it, you know?

And so I think Christmas is the time where we begin to, like, smell this beautiful, rich smell of this imagined idea of connection and joy and belonging.

But for people who feel like they're looking in a window and not in the kitchen where it's being cooked, like, that hunger becomes, like, a deep sense of, like, frustration and disappointment and. And even anger or hurt, you know, So I think that there's a lot of things.

I think, you know, some of it is that we're uncomfortable being ourselves because we're afraid of, like, will we be accepted? Or what will people think?

I think, you know, it's almost like we're a bunch of porcupines, and I don't know how porcupines all hang out together, or we're a bunch of skunks and skunks all Stink. And how do they really hang out together? And we imagine this, like, oh, we're going to sit and be perfect, and there's not going to be a conflict.

But that's not. That's not real. That's not true. And so I think a lot of it is, you know, like, we fear being ourselves. We fear conflict.

And inevitably there's conflict in moments like this. I think we have hurt. You know, like, again, we talk about expectations.

If I have family members or friends who are like family who have hurt me physically or sexually or emotionally or, you know, like, spiritually, like, if I had people close to me who have hurt me, then again, this picture of intimacy and belonging is actually like, if I move into that, it almost triggers the pain that I experienced in something that was supposed to be that, you know, or grief and loss. Like, I know you had another conversation about that, but sometimes there's something about who's not there, you know, Like, I think we fear.

We fear going into deep relationship knowing that we're going to reenter grief or pain that we've experienced because of who's not there. I think a lack of acceptance, too.

You know, like, we enter into these kind of intimate moments where, you know, kind of like we're smelling that pecan pie and we're longing for something and we take a bite of it and it tastes awful. Like, we're afraid that, like, what we think it is isn't what it. What it would be, isn't really what it is. And.

And we've just had enough experiences that were painful or disheartening or have caused trauma in our life that we disengage and we quit trying because it was too costly.

Well. And then we're left with such kind of an abyss, like, there's such a gap, such a hole.

There's such a disconnect with someone that we were once close to that we don't even really know how to travel that many miles. Yeah. And the distance between us continues to grow. I know I've. I felt like that in my own life.

And, you know, I think every holiday I have a cry about mid December where I have a mini. Like a mini breakdown my husband and I now know to expect.

But because the holidays bring up for me a lot of the brokenness I've experienced and the pain I've experienced in some relationships with family in the past. And it's not that I haven't seen God bring life and redemption and forgiveness in some of those, but it definitely.

I'm still Reminded of the pain and the distance and the brokenness that we've experienced and how that still creates pain and distance that we still experience. And so I wanted to talk to you about this because I think so. So many of us can resonate for all different reasons.

And you bring up all these, you know, different examples of not feeling accepted or conflict or grief, pain in relationship with each other. And yet I'm wondering how you see us as humans made for connection, yet sitting here feeling disconnected to people we wish we were connected to.

Yeah, I, you know, even in what you were just saying a second ago, like, I feel like part of it is too, is this emptiness or longing.

Like, I don't know that I have a big cry, but I definitely get teary eyed every major holiday in a sense of loss, of what I had hoped my family would look like and what I had hoped these moments would look like and that they're not that. And I think there's an emptiness to that.

And so I think in our humanity, like this is a longing for relationship, but we don't know how to do it, you know, Like, I think part of our humanity is that we were created for relationship, that God created us to walk with us, that God looked at a person in the garden, said, it's not good for there to just be one of you. You need someone else. Like you need each other. You are imperfect by yourself.

You know, like, that story is incredible of if you go back to Genesis and Adam is alone, but in a perfect garden, in perfect relationship with God, in perfect relationship with the earth, like totally at peace and shalom in all those ways, and still God says, not necessarily that something's wrong, but this is incomplete, this isn't done yet. You need someone else. And so obviously, if in a perfect world, Adam needed Eve.

Like it makes sense that in a fallen, broken, broken, chaotic, painful, dark world and all the things we experience of grief and joy and doubt and wonder like that, we are incomplete. If we try to do this by ourself.

And going back to that lyric from oh Holy Night that, you know, when Jesus appears, the soul feels its worth because the soul can't find its worth on its own. We can't do this on our own. There is a way in which being human requires relationship.

And some of us have such a flawed understanding of what that is and are so broken or have so much dysfunction and hurt and trauma. Like we carry all this baggage and all this stuff that it's hard for us to navigate that.

But it doesn't do Away with the truth that even in a perfect world, we need other people. And in an imperfect world, even more so, we need other people. Like, we need to belong together to understand who we are.

And there's something about Jesus showing up that allows the soul to know its worth. But I think that's also true that there's something about being in community and in relationship at its best, where.

Especially where Jesus is present, and there's something healthy there that our souls begin to feel their worth because they can't find it on their own.

It's so interesting to listen to you talk because you mentioned this. This sense that we're made to connect, and when we aren't connected, it's almost like we're incomplete.

And I think that's part of the rub in the holidays is if this longing that we have is actually this deep feeling of feeling incomplete when we're experiencing loneliness or isolation.

I mean, geez, this year at Christmas with COVID things are so dialed back as far as community and celebrations and parties and getting together with family. But there's people who are experiencing breakups and divorce and broken relationships and conflict with family and you.

You know, people they haven't talked to in years or people they get together with and can't stand it. And so much of these experiences make us feel incomplete, and yet we're made to feel closeness in relationships, or we.

Feel like the only kind of closeness we can get is if we pretend to be someone we're not.

You know, like, so this is another lie that I think has done a lot of damage to many of us in our relationships is that in order to sit around the table with my family, I have to pretend to be someone I'm not.

Or in order to have anything like a real relationship or, I mean, even right now, man, like, all I feel like every person I know, including myself, is struggling with depression and. And loneliness and anxiety. Like, this is just the new norm right now.

And I think there's this sense and, like, okay, in order for me to have a friendship, I got to pretend like I'm not feeling that, or I got to pretend like I'm, like, optimistic or joyful, you know, like, and so there's a sense in which if we feel like in order to show up at Christmas and have fun, I have to pretend to be someone I'm not or pretend to feel the way I'm not.

Like, that actually makes it more painful and causes more conflict and actually does more damage to our soul instead of helping us to connect and Belong and heal.

Yeah, you bring up such an important point, especially during these holidays.

I shared in another podcast recently, but the, you know, you and I in the Pacific Northwest, the Washington State Health Department projected in one of the things that came across my desk that 30 to 60% of the population in this state will most likely be steeped in depression by January. When you think about that, that's half your friends, half your neighbors, half your family members, maybe even you, half your church attendees.

For you as a pastor, that's a lot of people who are in the hard spot.

The assumption is that, the assumption is that everyone is touched by it, you know, like, because even if it's 30 to 60%, like I think that's 30 to 60% that caught that cross a certain threshold. But like, I think that everyone is experiencing it in some way.

Absolutely.

So when you think about people who were made, were intended to have close relationships, you know, with their father or mother or their children, these kind of relationships that they're intended to have, but now they're experiencing brokenness in those, and this comes out in the holidays when making plans. As a pastor, I'm just curious, how do you counsel people when they long for what they were intended to have, but they don't have have?

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think some of it is. For me, one of the important things is telling the truth.

I think, you know, like there's, there's a lot of us at this season who started thinking about reconciliation. We start thinking about conflict, we start thinking about broken relationships.

And part of it is because we know that there's going to be a Thanksgiving or a Christmas where we're going to be in the room or around the table with someone who we've hurt or who's hurt us.

And I think part of the counsel is, you know, like, this is a really important time to tell the truth and to not pretend and to not pretend like everything's okay if it's not.

I think this is a really important time if you know you've hurt someone, to reach out and to seek reconciliation, to actually have a form of repentance and asking for forgiveness and trying to find another way. I think, you know, the other thing though is it is a time to be careful, to be really self aware of what you're feeling and pay attention.

I think a lot of people feel like they don't have a choice when they do.

And there are times when even though you're longing for belonging, to enter a certain type of community or party or setting is going to cause more damage and it might not be the right time to do that.

And so I think right now a big thing is actually being able to be self aware and to actually speak it out loud and to not be afraid of someone judging you for being weak or being depressed or being alone or being anxious. Especially this Christmas, it's important to share how we're doing and ask other people, really, how are you doing?

And I think the more we're able to speak that the safer we become and the more we can navigate safe spaces. But the other thing is to be gracious.

Like, for me, a growing theme in my life is this idea of being a peacemaker and the gospel of peace that I believe is at the center of all scripture and that the restorative love of God that I believe is at the very heart of God. And this really is a season that draws us into that longing.

And it's actually a time in church history and in church calendar and church around the world through Advent, where people are looking at what is creating this longing. What is the darkness? What does it mean for those who sit in.

In the shadow of death and who sit in darkness and suffering, not to run away from it, but to look into it. Because we believe in the God of resurrection who can heal.

We believe that at the heart of God is this restorative love that wants to see every relationship restored.

And so I think part of my counsel too is there's a time to protect yourself and stay distant and be careful of kind of what you're exposing yourself to. But at the other end, we never give up hope of restoration. We never give up hope of reconciliation.

And there was a conversation the other day with someone and they have a family member who abused them in awful, awful ways. And we were talking about reconciliation. And. And the thing is that they.

They're like, how do I reconcile when that person keeps denying it even happened? And there's this thing around Christmas of, like, how do we deal with this? How do we. And my answer is like, there are unsafe people.

And until truth is spoken, you can't. But our job as those of us trying to follow Jesus, is that we stay open, that reconciliation is possible.

And that doesn't mean that we ignore things or pretend like they didn't happen or sweep them under the rug. But the reality is, like, we keep speaking truth.

And as painful it is, like we keep trying to stay present with the hope that in Jesus anything is possible and longing for restoration because we know that's God's heart.

That everyone like the people who hurt us most, God's heart is that they would repent, they would turn from the evil things they've done and that they would ask for forgiveness and seek reconciliation and be healed and that they would be changed.

And so I think this is a season where like my counselors, you know, like, be careful, guard yourself, talk to other people around you who are safe, make sure they know how you're feeling and what you're struggling with and understand your story, because sometimes they are able to give you better advice and guidance than all of your feelings raging in you. And the other thing is that this is a season really to keep our hearts open to the potential of reconciliation or restoration.

And I don't think that can happen until there's truth, until there's repentance and there are things.

But I think that this is a season that my counselors, I'm not asking anyone to pretend like they weren't hurt or to just move on or to like make the fake kind of peace that's just not dealing with the conflict, but really is like, this is a season where God is inviting us to have open hearts to the potential of restoration, to the potential of reconciliation, because we were created for community and belonging and all the things that have happened that have broken, that God wants to heal.

I love the. And in this conversation, Kurt, it's not one or the other.

I feel like sometimes when you talk to people, they're all boundaries, all about self protection all the time.

Or you talk to people who are all about, you know, God can reconcile and redeem and you just need to get right with people without any boundaries, without any self compassion for what you've experienced, without any truth telling. And I think you're inviting us into both and holding both well.

And that really seems to be the trick in relationships with people who've hurt us is how do we set healthy boundaries to protect ourselves and own our truth and our story and be self compassionate while also still believing God can redeem anything. He can write a new story, he can change anyone, and he can reconcile some of the most broken relationships.

And how do we continue to hold that at the same time? That's. That's the challenge, right?

Right. And I think it's painful year after year because we always shortcut what God is doing.

And at Christmas we tell ourselves, like, well, I can't have boundaries, right? I just need to go to this unsafe place and pretend to be happy around this person who hurt me.

Or we shortcut the, like, I'm not going to deal with restoration.

You know, like we shortcut both those things because we have this idea that well, Christmas is a time where we just kind of fake it till we make it and we need to put on this face and put on this look and the world needs to see that somehow we're like these healthy families or healthy groups and it shortcuts it. And I think that that repetitive thing we do in these seasons actually makes the wound deeper and causes like infection and more pain.

And like it doesn't we try and shortcut it because we so long for something that isn't real that in shortcutting and sometimes we hurt us and hurt them more like we make. Yeah, just the darkness grows deeper in that.

What's your advice for people who are right there where they've been having to self protect and create boundaries and, and maybe that's even meant distance and, and sometimes kind of feeling like they've figure out new traditions in the holidays that aren't always with family members. What's your advice for people who need to find family and friends during the holidays?

Yeah, I would say, number one, lower your expectations because I think sometimes we again, we long for something we can't have so much that we try and like manipulate or manufacture something that isn't real but, but like to remind yourself of what is your actual longing? What is it that you really want? Is it the perfect Christmas or is it just to be with someone else and have a healthy relationship?

What is it in this season that's the truth about what you're longing for and could actually help you feel a sense of belonging or your soul feel a sense of worth in the presence with others and then to look around and see who is that.

And in doing that to be careful that it's not just people who look like you like, I think this is the strange way of Jesus is that, you know, especially if we pay attention to Jesus teaching in Matthew and in other places that you know, like these are the moments actually where we find our belonging by ending up around the table with people who are nothing like us.

And if we, and in some ways if we try and curate the perfect Christmas or the perfect Thanksgiving, the act of trying to curate the perfect actually destroys and is going to make it nothing about. Well, there's no way that it can actually help us have a deeper sense of belonging or to feel a deeper sense of connection and worth.

It really is this openness to who can I share space with? Who can I share a table with? Who can I connect with who can I invite?

And I think a lot of it is posture of, like, how do we have a posture that is welcoming to others and receives invitation? Like, I think paying attention to whose friends around you.

For me, it has been of, you know, finding good friends to spend time with and connecting with people who I know are safe, people that I'm just going to be able to feast and laugh with. And a lot of those people don't look like me. A ton of those people don't vote like me. Many of those people don't have faith like me.

But I think this is a season. If we really want to celebrate who Jesus is in this moment, and if we're looking to kind of, how do we create or find family together?

We just start inviting people in and kind of navigating. I think it's something maybe that we can't manufacture, but we have to find our way into.

And so, you know, like, I know people right now who feel alone or feel like in the past, like, oh, I just couldn't find a place to have Christmas with other people, and my family's broken. And I would start naming some opportunities they had to show up, hey, some people did this. Did you go to that?

I know you might think it's kind of dorky, but did you go Christmas caroling? Did you go to that white elephant gift exchange when this person invited you to coffee, did you go?

And some of it is that it doesn't fit our expectations.

And so we say no to things that could have actually been an invitation into the kind of deep meaning and belonging we were searching for in this moment. So I would say that be open, be inviting, be welcoming, and try and walk your way into it.

I think if you start off being like, I have no family, and I feel really broken and disconnected. So I'm gonna throw a big party and kind of figure out, like, I'm gonna set the table and put, you know, name cards of who's sitting where.

And the more you try and manufacture it, I think the less it's possible for it to be the meaningful thing you're desiring.

I love your advice of just show up. That's such good advice. I also think it really takes vulnerability and risk to reach out and let people know that you're looking for connection.

I think that's really hard for people. But what people often get stuck doing is they wait for other people to invite them in.

And I've even found in my younger life, when I lived in my town with no family, that I actually needed to do the inviting. And I think a lot of times we wait to get invited into things rather than initiating it ourselves.

It's kind of like the old adage, you know, if you want to have friends, be a friend. If you want to have a sense of family, there's certainly other people that you could think to potentially invite over.

And, yeah, maybe it's not on Christmas Eve or Christmas, but you can be an inviter and begin to connect to, not just wait for something to happen,.

You know, But I think that's a truth. What you said is it takes. It takes risk and vulnerability. Like, that kind of shatters this fantasy idea of what Christmas would be. You know, like.

Like, no, this relationship and belonging and even these types of celebration, like, for your whole life, they take risk and vulnerability. You know, this.

It never gets easy because, like, we're complicated and we're all dysfunctional, and, like, this is just the truth of what it means to be human. And so, yeah, if you want relationship, like, if you want belonging, it's. It absolutely takes risk and vulnerability.

Any shortcut to that isn't going to lead you where you want to go again. Any shortcut to that isn't going to get that.

But the other thing is, you know, we talked earlier about how there's just so much depression and loneliness and kind of the weight of this moment.

And I know a truth for me and for so many people is when you start to feel depressed, like, you're laying on the couch or in your bed and you know what you need to do to be healthy, and you just can't do it. Like, you know, if I went for a walk right now, that would make me feel so much better and give me energy and make my day better.

But you just, for whatever reason, like, you literally can't get off the couch or. I know if I talk to this person, like, it would help me so much, but I just.

Like, the depression is so clouding and debilitating that I feel like I can't call them.

We have a sense sometimes of what we know, but the more we experience this, we have to live in this awareness of when I feel that sense of I know I should do something to be healthier, and I feel the weight that I just can't do it or I'm not sure I really want to.

That's the risk and vulnerability, too, of, like, you don't have to do everything, but just begin to reach out, begin to find ways, you know, like, it really is going to take in this Season of like, don't get stuck. Like, I think momentum matters too.

Of as soon as I start to feel like stuck or alone or excluded or you know, like it's easy in a world to feel like everyone else is having fun and is optimistic and joyful and celebrating and I just feel like crap. Like I feel like I feel lost and alone and I feel stuck. And man, it's easy to fall down that hole.

And there's all kinds of other factors, but I just would say, yeah, that risk and vulnerability, that's for everyone. I think when I feel that the most, I feel like, why is it so easy for everyone else? And for me it feels like such a risk.

It feels like there's just too much vulnerabilities. I'm going to get hurt. This is going to cost me. Like there's a reason I wasn't invited in the first place and there's a reason they didn't call me.

You know, like I. All of these like self doubt things come in and cloud my mind.

And I think like, if we long for belonging and when we realize that and begin to speak the truth of it, and we long for connection and in this season we want to celebrate with others, like, it does mean that we're going to have to risk and we're going to have to be vulnerable.

And if we want to be in any kind of healthy community or healthy family, it means we're going to have to deal with our conflict and allow conflict to be actually the most beautiful part of who we are because it can transform our relationships. A conflict is a human experience and it can be good and it can actually bind us together if we find healthy ways to resolve conflict together.

But again, that takes risk and vulnerability.

And so in a season that feels like light and happy and hot chocolates and singing and Christmas cards, the reality is this may be one of the seasons where we're most challenged, that if we want to find the most meaning and beauty in this moment, it's going to take a lot of risk and vulnerability.

Absolutely. You know, we experience disconnection with humans, but we also experience it with God.

And yet we're made to be connected both with God and with humans. And, and I go back to what you talked about when you invited us back to Genesis and that somehow we were made for relationship.

We're incomplete without it. We're. We're made to be connected to our maker.

And, and I'm just curious in this time, at a time where people are celebrating Jesus, the Emmanuel God with us How. How do you want to encourage us to connect with a God who sometimes doesn't feel like he's with us or he feels far away or removed or distant?

I think this is a really hard thing in the season because we get so distracted in a way, and also because we want to rush to Christmas and not celebrate Advent the same way we want to rush to Good Friday and get to Easter and not sit in the Good Friday moment. And Advent really is the season to invite us into. Like, why. Why is searching for hope a good thing?

Why is searching for faith and searching for joy and searching for peace? Why is it the longing and the searching, and why is that a good thing?

And for me, it's because that's the place where we realize that Jesus is with us. So God is our Emmanuel God with us. But I don't think that I experienced that so much in, like, the perfect moments.

I experience it in the midst of the struggle and the pain. Like, I. Like, I think, like, those are the moments where I feel like I. I can feel God walking with me.

Last Sunday at the church where I pastor, we talked about Psalm 121. And it starts with, I lift my eyes up to the mountains. Where does my help come from?

And we talked a little bit about perspective mattering and that really, this is an invitation by God. Come and walk with me. Look to me. Like, there's all these things we're looking to in this moment.

There's all this hope we've placed in getting the right present or having a really great Christmas morning or. Or whatever, like. Or having the perfect Christmas sweater. I don't know. Like, whatever it is, like, we have all of these.

Like, we have these hopes and we're looking at all this stuff. But I think Christmas is really this invitation of, like, no, like. Like you're looking to all these other places. Look to me.

Because when you look to me, you realize, like, I'm close enough to you that you can feel my breath.

One of the things about being a disciple of Jesus really was this idea that you walk so close to the rabbi, to Jesus, that the dirt off his feet is covering you.

That we would have the sense that we're walking so close with Jesus, who is God with us, that we can almost feel ourselves being covered by the dirt of his feet as we walk and try and learn. And I think that, you know, like, it's not just about a Sunday morning or a devotional or an Advent moment. It really is.

Like, what does it mean for me to live with the type of awareness that I recognize and realize that God is here with me even in the mess, even in the pain. Something that was really powerful in my life. Oh, and I can't think of the person who this is. This is not my idea. Someone else famous came up with.

I just can't think of who it is.

Of, like, kind of taking your most painful and difficult memories and praying through them and remembering them and trying to imagine, can you see Jesus in that moment? And for me, there have been some powerful things like that. Of, like, moments where I feel like God was absent.

But I was able to invite the spirit of God to speak and open up and to pray through and not by myself. Like, this isn't something to undertake on your own, but with other people. But to really process and begin to look, where is God in that?

Because the more I began to see God in that, the more I realized, like, oh, God is with me in all of this. Because I think in my childhood, I had this idea that God was at church or in these perfect moments.

And in my, you know, late teens or early 20s, I had this idea that God's in kind of these ecstatic worship moments of, you know, being with a bunch of college students, singing worship songs at midnight, like, God's in these ecstatic moments.

But I didn't understand how God was in the moments of me sitting around talking with friends or walking on the streets or working, doing construction or Target or wherever I was working at the time, you know, like, I couldn't. I didn't have an imagination for that because it felt like, oh, God is showing up in this big stuff.

And I think Christmas is a reminder, particularly if we pay attention to the actual scene of Jesus birth in Bethlehem, if we pay attention to who's there and what's going on and the feel of it.

And if we kind of push aside all these, like, beautiful Nativity scenes that are, like, serene or, like, you know, all the little sets that I have around my house, because I love Nativity scenes like that are all, like, you know, people bowing and smiling and calm. Like, that's not what it was.

Like, like, there's pushing and screaming and there's blood and liquid and there's, you know, like, there's, like, this moment is crazy in this really messy place. And it's this family, and they end up being, you know, refugees who have to go to North Africa. And, like, it is this crazy.

Like, this is what God looks like when God is with us. This is the picture of Emmanuel, God with us. And so I think Christmas is an invitation to that, of. To recognize and remember.

No, this is God with us in the dark. This is the God who's so close that we can feel God's breath. This is the God who, if we walk with. Like the dirt from his feet will cover us.

And this is a God who, if we live in that awareness, will radically change who we are and how we live and begin to transform the world. Like, to me, this is. This is the most powerful thing. There's a verse that I love, and to me, it's by far the best Christmas verse.

And it comes from Luke 1, and it's John the Baptist, his dad, who's kind of like Jesus, uncle or cousin. And he's singing kind of this prophetic word over John the Baptist.

And he says, and you, my little son, will be called the prophet of the Most High, because you will prepare the way for the Lord. You will tell his people how to find salvation through forgiveness of their sins. And this is the best part.

Because of God's tender mercy, the dawn of God's redeeming grace is about to break upon us, to give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death and to guide us to the path of peace. And when I think of God with us, it's this moment of.

The more we recognize, like this is deep, dark night, the more we realize this is also the time when God is breaking through. Like Christmas is the time when we celebrate God has come and the God of.

Because of God's tender mercy, because God loves us, because we belong to God, because of the restorative love of God, because God wants our souls to know their worth. The dawn of God's redeeming grace breaks. And all of a sudden, Jesus enters the world. And now we live.

If we can enter into it with this sense that God is with us, Jesus is with us.

The spirit is with us in all of our pain and all of our joy, in the darkest moments, in those moments where we are full of te and suffering and longing and unfulfilled expectations, but also in those ecstatic moments of opening gifts and of laughter and silliness and ridiculous things, like God is with us in this. And so I think Christmas, more than any other season, is an invitation for us to awaken to kind of the deep and messy truth of what that means.

Kurt, you know that around here we talk a lot about colliding. That. That God collided with us.

That Jesus, you know, came and he collided with all of these people who felt very Disconnected, either from people in their lives or from God. They felt distant, removed, pushed out, isolated. What do you see about Jesus when he collides with those people who feel like they don't belong?

What do you see about Jesus that you love, that reminds people they do belong?

Yeah, to be honest, the word welcome is probably, for me, the most important thing that, like. Like, there are. Like, growing up when I was a kid, I loved going to other people's houses. I called all their moms mom because I thought it was funny.

I would walk into their house without knocking all the time and eat their food. And, like, I just. I really enjoyed that sense of, like, almost like I just grabbed onto the entitlement. Like I was part of their family.

Like, showing up at family game nights at people's families uninvited. Like, I just thought it was funny and fun.

But, like, there are houses, as I particularly remember as a teenager, there are houses I walked into where I felt like I was an outsider and there were. Or a guest. And there are houses I walked into where I felt like I was family. And I don't know that I can name all of what it was like.

I think it was a warmness and an acceptance and it was language.

But I think Jesus has this way, particularly with people who are really broken and struggling and hurting and feel outcast and on the margins of making them feel welcome, making them feel like in the presence of Jesus, they belong and not when they change or if they're made perfect, like they already belong, like they've always belonged to, even through their whole road of suffering and even through whatever personal failures they've had. I mean, because we see this in people who have sicknesses that have nothing to do with anything they did.

And we see this in people who have experienced a lot of sexual brokenness. But we also see this in people like Zacchaeus, who was basically stealing money from people and being an awful neighbor.

We see this in all these different ways, but somehow all of them, them have this sense in the presence of Jesus, of, like, you belong. And it's not that he doesn't confront the things that are wrong, because he does. And Zacchaeus, again, is a perfect example of that.

And Jesus doesn't even have to call that out.

But as Zacchaeus realizes he belongs and he's in the presence of Jesus in a way where Jesus is welcoming, like, I think it actually becomes an invitation where Zacchaeus sees it right away of like, oh, I've been living like, I'm not family. And I am. And now that I realize I'm family, I've got to change everything. So I think there is this Jesus.

Really, when we encounter Jesus, from my experience and from people I know who have really vibrant, flourishing relationships with Jesus, it's not about judgment. Lots of times it's not even about fixing everything right away. It's not about everything being healed and over.

Most often, it's about finding a place where you have a sense of, like, I belong and I'm welcomed and I'm family. And in fact, I've always belonged. I've always been welcomed. I've always been family.

I've always been invited into this story, even when I didn't know it, even when I wasn't living it.

And I just think there's something about Jesus, like, he still speaks the truth and he's still his own unique self that, you know, like, there's all this stuff, but somehow he's able to not be offended by people, to not be afraid of people, to not be anxious of people most of the time, to not come off as angry at people. There are some exceptions to that, but, like, there's this, like, this sense of.

Not that in his presence, he doesn't care about your brokenness or your failures or your sin or your trauma or your pain or your suffering, but that he's able to welcome it and love you in the midst of. You know, I don't think Jesus says, leave everything at the door and come in. It's almost like, no, bring all of your stuff with you.

Bring all your fear and doubt, all of your pain, all of your sickness, all of your sin. Like, you're welcome in here. And now that we're family, like, let's figure out how to be family together.

And so I think there's just this welcome and this invitation to belonging, which is really at the heart of what we crave. And somehow Jesus was able to do that.

And I really think it's that, like, he saw everyone as being human and being beautiful, and he saw everyone as being broken and, like. And somehow in that, was able to just, like, love and accept and welcome in this unique and beautiful way.

Kurt, there is so much we could talk about.

And I know that I'm gonna have to bring us to a close here, but before I do, I want to rewind all the way back to the beginning of this conversation where you said you were going to take us on a bunny trail, and you brought up your love for pecan pie. And how when you smell pecan pie, all of a sudden, you become hungry. You recognize this hunger, this longing, and. And you want it. And. And you.

You said something that I think a lot of people can resonate with who feel really disconnected, like, maybe they don't belong, which is they can smell the pie, but they're not in the kitchen. And.

And here we are, you know, having had this conversation where we're really landing on this idea that we have a God, Emmanuel, who wanted to come and let us know we belong, we're family.

And I'm wondering what your challenge or charge is to us as we wrap this up of being people who carry on his ministry of letting people know they belong, that he wants relationship and connection with them and for them, in a sense. How can we live our lives inviting people not to look through a window at the pecan pie? But how do we invite people into the kitchen?

Yeah. I mean, I would say, first of all, learn to be content and present. This is something we have to learn together.

That, like, lots of times, the most perfect, beautiful food isn't the best tasting food. I mean, my experience is, like, I love.

And Willow, I know this is true of you, too, like, a hole in the wall place where it just kind of is like, I'm not sure that, like, this passed a health inspection. Like, whoever's making this food doesn't care.

I don't know if that's true of me,.

But, like, the food is amazing. Like, you know, some of the best food I've had has looked awful.

And the person who made it apologized a million times, like, oh, it's not, you know, but.

So I think sometimes my invitation would be in this moment is it may look like through the window, what you're seeing looks so perfect and great, but it may be that people in there are longing for real community because they're not finding it there either. And I think, you know, like, be. Be. How do we learn to be content and enjoy what we have? I think that lots of us have an idea.

There was this time where I was praying, and when I pray, I get pictures a lot in my mind. Like, I just use my imagination when I pray. And I was praying, and.

And I was sitting around this table, and it was like, you know, like forks to the left and knives to the right or whatever it's supposed to be. Like, it was, like, well set and beautiful and everyone there orderly and. And I felt really out of place in this prayer.

And then I looked down in a way. It was like there was this chaotic picnic in the woods happening And a bunch of people and, like, laughing and that dancing and music.

And I was like, man, that's what I want. I keep chasing, like, a seat at the table in this thing that I've expected or imagined. But the truth is, this isn't what I want.

Like, what I want is down there with those people just present and laughing and not worried about how it looks or how, like, just being together. And so to me, some of that is, again, to the risk and vulnerability of if you can't find pecan pie, make some and share it with people.

I would say that, you know, remind yourselves, like, sometimes we need to say this over and over, that what we see through the window or what we see other people's Christmas cards look like or what we see on social media may not be what it looks like. And even if we had that, it probably wouldn't deal with all of our longing and pain and unmet expectations.

And so, like, we have to learn to be content and to be present and to find joy and pleasure with those around us and whatever we have and to share. Like, for me, you know, the biggest thing about Christmas, this is my last thing. I'm sorry if there's a rabbit trail.

I hate when people make Christmas gift list in my family. Everyone ignores me, but I'm super anti. I don't want to know a list of what you think you want for Christmas.

For me, the most beautiful thing is loving someone deeply enough to be like, I want to get this gift out of the abundance of my love for them. I want to share. And for me, this is starting Thanksgiving and Christmas, it's about sharing.

And so going back to the pecan pie thing, man, maybe this is a season where all of us need to learn. Like, don't worry about making a perfect pecan pie. Don't worry about the right recipe. Don't worry about what it looks like.

To be honest, don't even worry what it tastes like. Just make something and invite others to share it. Risk, be vulnerable, because everyone is longing for what you're longing for right now.

And we just kind of. We got to find a way to come together and share what we have and learn to be content and enjoy.

And I think in the midst of that, we will kind of awaken to the truth that Jesus is with us.

Kurt, thank you so much for this conversation for reminding us that we belong.

Thank you, Willow. It was really good.

My deepest prayer really is for all of us that this would be a season where the world feels so disconnected and we all feel so alone that somehow that God would just break through and that we really would all have a growing sense of our belonging to each other and to God and in that that that we just find life and joy.

Thanks for hanging out, Kurt, and for those of you listening, may your soul feel it's worth this week. What a challenging message to not only receive, but to go and share with people who need to hear it.

And if you feel like there's someone you want to pass this message on to, we'd love for you to share it. Keep colliding and we'll catch you next week. Thanks for tuning in to keep up with us.

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