In this podcast episode, Joseph Grech Chartered Psychologist interviews Ross McIntosh, an organizational and work psychologist specializing in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) in the workplace. 

Ross explains the way he works with ACT as a coach, ACT being a third-wave cognitive behavioural process focused on enhancing psychological flexibility in clients. He emphasizes its transdiagnostic application and effectiveness in various clinical and workplace settings. Ross discusses three core skills of ACT: Notice, Active, and Open, which contribute to developing psychological flexibility. 

In this discussion Joseph and Ross highlight the importance of integrating ACT with other coaching modalities.

Welcome on the podcast Ross, how are you?,

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Ross McIntosh: I'm really

well, thanks, Joseph.

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I'm delighted to be here.

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It's a great start to the new

year to have this chat with you.

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Oh, same here,

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Joseph: same here.

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Um, Ross and I, we've known each other

for quite a few years now, and we share

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a similar passion in terms of act.

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So, Ross, shall I start with a bit of an

introduction, and then we can dive into

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the aspects of our conversation today?

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Ross is an organizational

and work psychologist.

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He specializes in the application

of contextual behavioral science

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to the workplace, particularly

what we're talking about today.

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Acceptance of commitment therapy

act forms an essential part

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of Ross's coaching toolkit.

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Ross is also the creator and host

of another podcast, PeopleSoup,

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which I listen to myself as well.

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And PeopleSoup, it aims to unlock

insight and workplace potential

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from different expert perspectives.

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from experts in terms of contextual

behavioral science as well.

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So if you haven't listened to his

podcast, have a listen to it also.

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Ross, shall we start talking about ACT?

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What

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Ross McIntosh: do you think?

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Oh yeah, let's dive in.

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Okay, for

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Joseph: those of our listeners

who might have not heard about ACT

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before, how could you introduce it

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Ross McIntosh: to us?

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Tell us a bit about it.

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So ACT, Acceptance and Commitment

Therapy, comes under an umbrella

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of contextual behavioral science.

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ACT is probably the most well known.

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Part of contextual behavioral

science and it's a third wave

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cognitive behavioral therapy.

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And it's been around for

probably more than 20 years now.

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And it's an approach that's

being used trans diagnostically.

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So it's used in clinical work with

psychological issues like borderline

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personality disorder, uh, psychosis.

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It's used in relationships to

weight and eating, it's used in

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smoking cessation, and all sorts of

different areas in the clinical world.

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And my specialism is using it in

the workplace with teams and leaders

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and using it in one to one coaching.

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I've found ACT to be an absolutely

essential part of my coaching toolkit.

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It's my go to foundation for coaching.

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I found it so useful and effective.

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It's a set of six processes act.

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It's represented visually by

something called the hexaflex.

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Which I don't propose to go into in

great detail today, Joseph, because I

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think the hexaflex, talking about the

six processes, can get us quite heady

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and cognitive and trying to understand.

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Joseph: So that's an interesting way

how to look at it, because also when we

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talk about our diplomas, for example,

we cover ACT, and the first thing

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that we do is we show the hexaflex.

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So I'm really intrigued at how you

would introduce ACT to somebody

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in the workplace without going

into the six different processes.

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Ross McIntosh: Yeah, we'd, we'd

narrow it down into, to three skills.

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Mm hmm.

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I consider act to be, uh, the

development of skills, which

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I think why it's so useful and

applicable in a coaching environment.

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So maybe if I just talk about what those

three skills are and unpack them a bit,

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it'll start to make a bit of sense.

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So those three skills are

notice, active, and open.

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So notice is about.

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In our working lives, do we always

notice what's going on around us,

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the opportunities, the threats,

the other people who are around

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us in our working environment, or

are we stuck inside our own heads?

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Because the more we're out there,

the more we can get data and

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feedback on what's going on.

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And we know that we're not

always out there noticing.

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There was some research done at Harvard,

and they said we can spend around 46, 47

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percent of our waking hours on autopilot.

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Which means that my body's here, but my

mind's thinking about something else.

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And sometimes that's super useful.

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I'm not knocking autopilot as a

no no, but sometimes that ability

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or that capacity to step into the

present moment is super useful for

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us, particularly in our roles at work.

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So can we really notice.

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What's going on around us

and how we're showing up.

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What impact are we having

in our workplace, on our

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colleagues, on ourselves?

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Because with that awareness, we can

develop more insights into how we can

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really be our best selves at work.

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So there's that skill of noticing,

which we'd work on through coaching

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or in team based training with ACT.

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The next one is Active.

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This is all about, are we being

the best version of ourselves?

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What really fundamentally

matters to us as a human being,

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as a person in the workplace?

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You in your role, Joseph, me in mine.

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Who do we really want to be?

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What's important to us?

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And in act, we tend to call these personal

values, what really matters to us.

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What really matters will be

different for each person.

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And I think sometimes in the workplace,

we don't stop to pause and consider.

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What does really matter to me?

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It's not about what we're doing,

it's about how we're doing it.

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It's about those qualities of behavior we

bring to our presence in the workplace.

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So in ACT we tend to explore these

personal values and get a bit

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playful and experimental with them.

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So treating a personal value as something

that We can try on, we can think about

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it as a new pair of shoes, we can try

walking in the service of this value

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and see how the world reacts, or how

our workplace reacts, or how we feel

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if we're really embodying this value.

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And the reason it's called active, this

skill, is because we can have words

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about how we want to be at work, but it's

bringing them to life in our behavior.

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How do we express those qualities

in how we show up in our behavior?

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And we know that that's not always easy.

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But it generally is really

fulfilling and gives us our sense

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of purpose and meaning in our lives.

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So that's a little bit about active.

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And then the third one is open.

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And the way we, the strap line

for open would be relating

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skillfully to our inner world.

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Which can sound a little

bit woo woo, maybe.

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What does he mean?

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Well, I mean that at any time,

in any moment in our lives, our

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mind is producing loads of stuff.

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Things like thoughts, emotions,

memories, sensations, urges.

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And sometimes that stuff

can hijack our behavior.

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Sometimes it can keep us stuck in loops.

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Sometimes it can just leave

us with habitual patterns of

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behavior that aren't that useful.

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They were perhaps once useful,

but they're no longer useful.

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So it's shining a light on things

like those thoughts, those emotions,

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those memories, those urges.

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And in ACT, we're learning how

to relate to those differently.

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In some approaches, in some

therapeutic approaches, we might try

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and deconstruct an unhelpful thought.

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One thing I love about ACT is, we're not

looking to deconstruct that necessarily,

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we're just saying, hey, it's human.

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We're having these unhelpful thoughts.

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Perhaps a thought like, let me

give you an example like, I'm not

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good enough, or I'm going to be

discovered for the fraud that I am.

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A thought like that can

stop me doing things.

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It can stop me taking on new projects.

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It can stop me accepting

invitations to speak.

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On a podcast for instance, but can

I respect and notice that as a, a

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way the human mind has evolved and

begin to relate to it differently?

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To allow me to pursue what really matters

to me to pursue that valued action.

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So combine those three skills.

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This is the way we conceptualize

it in the workplace combined.

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Those three skills could represent

the development or the cultivation

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of psychological flexibility.

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And that's at the heart of act.

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You, as you well know.

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Yeah.

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Joseph: Yeah.

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I have so many questions, Ross.

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And I'm thinking about where to,

where to start with any of these.

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Um, I'm going to start

actually in relation.

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So the three, kind of skills that you

mentioned are notice, aware, and open.

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And what we'll do as well in the show

notes, we'll put a link to the hexaflex,

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so if anyone wants to dig a bit deeper

into the processes, then you can.

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As you as well know, there isn't kind of

a starting point of our act, and that's

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something that I love about ACT, that it's

not a linear process where we look at.

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For example, some therapies,

as we've been mentioning, like

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CBT, have got a starting point.

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ACT is a bit more organic.

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So, I'm intrigued.

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Talking about the start when you're

working with coaching clients.

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How do you find a start?

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Do you focus on notice as a

starting point with the client?

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Is there a skill that you start with?

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How do you start into weaving

act into your coaching

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Ross McIntosh: program?

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I think as you say, it's organic.

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It depends on the responses you're

getting from your coachee and I And I'd

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always have act in the back of my mind,

I'd always be looking and listening

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through that lens or that earpiece of

act, looking out for what matters to that

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person, looking out for noticing, noticing

what's going on for them, noticing their

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language, and noticing perhaps their,

the way that they're hard on themselves.

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or, or getting in their own way.

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But a way I'd probably start

is with one of the traditional,

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well founded coaching models.

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I'd probably start with that as

a way in for, for example, grow.

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I might start talking to a

client about Their goals and,

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and, and moving on from there.

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And at the same time noticing what

matters and if they're really noticing

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what they're saying and how they're

showing up, and if I can spot things

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that are perhaps getting in their way

that are generated from their own minds.

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Mm.

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So it, it, it, like you say, it's organic

and it wouldn't be linear, but what I

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often use is a tool called the Act Matrix.

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Which allows us to begin to map that out.

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Map out what matters.

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Map out sort of small behaviors

towards who they want to be.

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And also map out what

might get in the way.

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Joseph: Such a wonderful

tool to use, isn't it?

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Because it also, there's an

element for me of co creation.

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You're doing something together.

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Most of my coaching I was online,

but I remember when I used to

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do a lot more face to face.

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I, I love that moment where the

client will also pick up the

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pen and start writing in there.

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And it's, it's, uh, although I've

put in the act matrix, we'll also

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put a link on the show notes.

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It's so wonderful to see when

the client actively engages.

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with the process.

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And me as a code being flexible

in that approach is also, you

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know, we're mirroring the act

processes ourselves with the

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Ross McIntosh: client.

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Absolutely.

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Such important points you raised there.

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A collaboration.

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I think coaching is a

collaboration anyway.

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And I think ACT really supports

that collaboration, the ACT matrix.

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Very much like you, when I was

doing more coaching face to face,

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first of all, you know what, I'd

use the ACT matrix in my notes, just

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jotting down a few things, thinking.

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What's going on, perhaps, inside

that might be getting in the way?

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Who does this person really want to be?

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What's important?

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And then I realized one time,

years ago in coaching, I thought,

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let's get this on a board.

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Let's get this on a whiteboard

and start mapping it together.

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And that was super powerful for

me, working with coaches, with the

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ACT Matrix, and Collaboratively

mapping that out and sorting.

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It's a, it's a kind of sorting exercise

of what's going on inside your head.

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And I still try that online

with various virtual tools.

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It's not quite as visceral.

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Yeah.

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But visceral is an important word

because in act we might be just

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pressing pause with a coaching

client saying, how does that feel?

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Can you notice your body right now?

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Just to re anchor them into the present

moment if we feel they've got trapped

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in a rabbit hole inside their own heads.

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A habitual way of thinking that

isn't productive and leads them

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down a route that we know is

gonna lead them to more stuff.

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Joseph: Did you know that at Become,

we offer a number of different coach

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training programs to people just like you?

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If you're new to coaching, there is a

Level 1 Diploma in Integrative Coaching.

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If you've been coaching for a while,

or perhaps you're already an ACC coach,

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then we have the Advanced Diploma.

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in integrative coaching, which leads all

the way to the PCC credential by the ICF.

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We also have a number of CPD

programs and certificates,

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including mentoring and supervision.

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To find out more, go to to become.

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org or just check the show notes.

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I'm noticing a very curious part

of me that is intrigued now.

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around, because you mentioned the

flip chart and the whiteboard and

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I got this idea of you being in a

training room with a group of people.

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So would you also use the act

matrix in a way with a group?

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I've never used it myself.

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I've always done it one to one with

people, but can it be used with a group?

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What do you

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Ross McIntosh: think?

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Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you let your

curiosity guide you, Joseph, because

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yes, absolutely, I find it can unlock

conversations in a group that could

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otherwise take so much time to reach.

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I used it with a group, a senior

group of directors before Christmas,

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talking to them about what matters

to them as a group, how they want to

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be, what's really important and what

could show up inside of any member of

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that group that could get in the way.

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And getting them to be really

reflective and honest about that,

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because the things that could get in

the way might be, I'm just exhausted.

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Things keep changing and I don't

really understand where we are anymore.

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And I'm kind of scared to ask.

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Or it could be, I've got so many things

going on in my life outside of work,

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I just don't have capacity for this.

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Or it could be things like, I'm

not sure I trust that person who

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sits across the table from me.

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And even those conversations

about who do we want to be

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as a group, what's important.

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If you go around a group, you'll

start to realise they're different.

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Assumptions being made and

surfacing those can really help

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a group bond and create more.

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Psychological safety, but then it can

also help them notice the behaviors

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that take them towards who they

want to be and those behaviors that

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take them away from that as well.

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So there's a whole approach as part of

the contextual behavioral science, stable

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if you like, called pro social, which in

part of it uses the matrix for groups.

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And it's super exciting

and super interesting.

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I can

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Joseph: feel the excitement in me as

you're telling me about it now as well,

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um, because I can see it worked so well.

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And, uh, in a team coaching

process, um, supporting the team,

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understand conflicts, for example,

what's happening within the team.

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It's really useful.

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There is another word that you mentioned,

or a couple of words that I feel it would

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be important to just pause a bit on,

and that is psychological flexibility.

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We mentioned it.

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In the past thing in a way, but it is

very important when it comes to act,

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Ross McIntosh: I feel.

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Yeah, so remember those six

processes I talked about?

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They all contribute to the

cultivation or the development

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of psychological flexibility.

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And I think this is so important

for people in the workplace.

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It's, let me try and have

a go at unpacking it a bit.

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It's, it's, can I show up in a way

that has importance and meaning

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for me, even when I'm experiencing

unhelpful stuff in my mind.

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So can I pursue a path of meaning

and importance even when my

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mind is saying you're not good

enough, this isn't gonna work?

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Can I notice what's going on around me?

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And can I adapt my course depending

on the context in which I find myself?

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So in ACT, we're looking

at two contexts really.

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And for coaching, we're thinking

at the context going on around

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a person, the environment or the

culture in which they operate.

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So that's one context.

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The other context is the internal context.

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What's going on inside that soup

inside your head that could be helpful

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or could be unhelpful and how you

can show up as the best version of

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yourself given the circumstances or

the contexts that you're experiencing.

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And that's

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Joseph: where you can see those

three skills really becoming engaged

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because you'd need to notice,

be aware and be open to this.

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Yeah,

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Ross McIntosh: that, that, that notice

active and open is super important because

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otherwise we might just be noticing, but

without the active we're not expressing

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what matters to us in our behavior.

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Yeah.

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I love the metaphors,

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Joseph: well, that you used earlier.

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Maybe we can pause a bit about

metaphors in a little bit.

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But you know, when you're trying

on a new pair of shoes and, uh, and

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linking that to family, That resonated

a lot with me because we do have a

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choice, talking about active, we have

a choice around which values to hold.

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We use metaphors a lot in ACT.

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How do you use them in a coaching process?

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Ross McIntosh: In many ways, actually.

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So let me give you some examples.

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So it might be an example like trying

on a new pair of shoes to try and

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distinguish this sense of a value

as a, as a, as a direction for us.

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And we can take small steps to express

that value as we move towards a goal.

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There's a, there's a very popular act

metaphor called passengers on the bus,

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which is about how we might relate to

the chatter that goes on in our heads.

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And those passengers.

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on our bus that could keep us

stuck going round in a circle.

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That could really act as a helpful

reinforcement or that could just

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be telling us we're a bit rubbish.

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Joseph: And I think it's also on the

first episode of your podcast, isn't it?

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Ross McIntosh: Yeah, definitely.

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So if anyone wants to hear it.

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Way back, way back when, yeah.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, you're right.

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And then there's another

way to use metaphor.

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Using a client's own words.

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Joseph: Picking up on, so a typical

one that I'm imagining is And this

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might be an example for, you know,

the client talking about the head

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being like a bowl of spaghetti.

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And then you can play with that

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Ross McIntosh: metaphor.

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Beautiful, exactly.

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And one, one you just made me think about

too is, is sometimes people will say, I

346

want to set sail with this new project.

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So you can then use that.

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that metaphor of setting sail of

what would help blow more air into

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your sails or what direction do

you want to take your boat in?

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And it just helps us access different

ways of thinking and new perspectives.

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I think that that can unlock

more insights and more potential.

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I would say it could be

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Joseph: because I, I suppose

when we're using metaphors,

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we're making some of the more.

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complex aspects of that discussion that

sometimes when we're using, when we're

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going into some of those processes,

I'm thinking to self as context, for

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example, can be quite tricky to navigate.

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And by using a metaphor, we can

support the client, perhaps notice

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what's happening a little bit more

viscerally as well and somatically.

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Ross McIntosh: Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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You already

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Joseph: alluded a little bit to

this earlier when you talked about

364

growth, for example, and other models.

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So do you feel that ACT can be integrated

with other coaching modalities?

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I'm guessing yes, based

on your previous answer.

367

But perhaps a little bit more around

how you, how you use that as a, as

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an integrative aspect of your work.

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Hmm.

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Ross McIntosh: It's difficult to kind

of articulate it and unpack because

371

I wouldn't want it to be seen as a

regimented step one, step two, step three.

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But I think it.

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For me, it forms a general part

of the exploratory conversation.

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Typically a first session, we'd

really be delving into why has

375

the person come to coaching?

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What are they looking to achieve?

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What area of their work or their

life would they like to, to focus on?

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And it's really spending some time

in that and holding the space for

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that person in that, that can really

help us unlock the, the, the goals.

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I think integrating with a model, for

example, like grow or One called Whoop,

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Wish, Outcome, Obstacle, and a Plan.

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But it's, it's, it's integrating these

and making it conversational, I think.

383

And I'm looking at it through the

lens of act and hearing through

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the earpiece of act, if you like.

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To just really notice,

perhaps, when a client is.

386

Skating over something or wanting to

move on from a thing agreeing in our

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contracting that we both have a pause

button And they can press pause if

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they're not sure or they want to explore

something a bit more and I can press

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pause if I notice Something where we

seem to be feeling discomfort That's a

390

part of coaching where it can be super

useful because you know when someone's

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showing visible signs of discomfort

sometimes for us as a coach Keeping

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that person in that space is, is really

important in that moment and ACT can

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really support that and you can really set

that up in the contracting by supporting

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them and just exploring because that

stuff, this could be the stuff that's

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derailing them and keeping them stuck.

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So I think by just by the

contracting up front can help us

397

do a much deeper exploration and

be more effective in our coaching.

398

So, like I said, I can't give you

a step by step guide as to how to

399

integrate it, but I just think.

400

For a coach to make it their own, it's to

learn and become more confident in the use

401

of ACT and hopefully the benefits of ACT.

402

And then thinking how it could integrate

into their own practice, because I

403

use, I was trained in strength based

coaching and solutions focused coaching.

404

And it's bringing all those

together and trusting in ourselves

405

to respond to the client in a

way that might be most effective.

406

But also being curious and kind to

ourselves when sometimes we'll take an

407

avenue that it seems to be going nowhere.

408

Can we pick another avenue

at that point and get curious

409

again and be kind to ourselves?

410

Joseph: I'm really glad that you said

that because it resonates a lot with

411

our values and ethos as a, as a coach

training company, because one of the

412

questions that we sometimes get from

trainees who want to study our program

413

is, so do you offer like in session one,

what I would say in session two, what

414

I would say, and I go, No, A would be

very boring in terms of having such a

415

regimented, structured coaching program.

416

But also for me in a way, that's

not even coaching, that's more

417

project management and planning.

418

Um, so I, I, I could really resonate with

what you said around being flexible as

419

well as practitioners and how we use.

420

Act in our coaching sessions and in

coaching in general, integration is

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Ross McIntosh: key.

422

Absolutely.

423

And the more we practice, the

more we find ways to use it.

424

That's why I don't want

to be too prescriptive.

425

Joseph: Yeah.

426

And it's hard at first, right?

427

Oh God, yes, very hard.

428

It's so hard because we've been trained

in a way that we know what to do.

429

We've been told what to do at different

points in times, especially at work.

430

And to be with a client and be in the

moment with the client and not think of

431

the models and think of them loosely,

um, like you said, can be terrifying.

432

Ross McIntosh: Yeah, and it's trusting in

our personal foundations of being there

433

with the client, creating that rapport,

allowing them to feel seen and heard.

434

So

435

Joseph: in terms of, as we start

kind of closing our conversation,

436

I don't want to, but, maybe we

could do a part two later on.

437

If somebody is interested in acts, of

course, we'll put some notes in the show,

438

in the show notes to, to help you out.

439

But are there any kind of quick wins or

any anything that you can signpost to

440

individuals who might be fairly new to

act and would like to develop themselves a

441

Ross McIntosh: little bit further?

442

Yes, I would say if you want an

introduction to ACT, I would recommend

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a book where I started, oh, about

nine, ten years ago now, a book

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called The Happiness Trap by Dr.

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Ross Harris.

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And Ross is a leader in the ACT

community, and he's great at making

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the concepts from ACT accessible.

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So that could be a great starting place.

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Another, perhaps?

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resource that people might want to

explore is, is my podcast, People Soup.

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And maybe what I could do, Joseph, is

give you a menu of some episodes that

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people might want to just dive into,

because I have guests that talk about ACT.

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A recent one I'm thinking of, uh, a

psychologist in America who talked to, who

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uses ACT to address imposter phenomena.

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And she does it in such an engaging way,

that might be Give people an insight

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in how we can really make ACT our own.

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And I guess the other thing I would

say is, you and me, Joseph, were in

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early conversations about how could we

help people gain more skills in ACT?

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So, watch the space with

Joseph and see what we might

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evolve from our conversations.

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Completely.

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Completely.

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Joseph: It is something, it is a

request that our trainees ask us.

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That's a lot, all the time.

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Can you offer more ACT

training, support, supervision?

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So definitely watch this

space in relation to that.

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Brilliant.

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Thank you so much, Ross, once again,

for being here, for sparing a bit

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of time to give us an introduction

to ACT and how you use it as a

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coach as well and as a psychologist.

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And, um, yeah, if you'd like to, I'd love

to have a part two to the conversation.

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I feel there's a lot that we could go

into in terms of, yeah, in terms of act.

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Ross McIntosh: Oh my goodness, Joseph.

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Yes.

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It's been a delight.

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Thank you for being such a

great interviewer and I am

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super up for a part two.

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Brilliant.

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Joseph: Brilliant.

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Brilliant.

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Okay.

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Thank you so much, Ross.

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Ross McIntosh: Okay.

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Cheers, Joseph.