We all know that parenting is enough of a challenge on its own, but what about when you’re coparenting with an abusive ex, someone who may be acting more for themselves than the best interest of your kid?
My guest, Lisa Johnson, is a certified domestic violence advocate and the cofounder of a divorce coaching program called Been There Got Out. We’re talking all about:
If coparenting with an ex has been a struggle for you, or if you are making a decision to leave a relationship, this real-talk conversation will give you the information you need to make the best choices for you and your child and support them through it all.
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My guest, Lisa Johnson, is a certified domestic violence advocate and the cofounder of a divorce coaching program called Been There Got Out. She works alongside her co-founder and romantic partner, Chris, to help people who are dealing with high-conflict separation and divorce, custody battles, and coparenting hell so that they can have the best outcome in family court and beyond.
Of course, there is much more to Lisa’s story than what we could cover in this conversation, but there are some elements she experienced that she has seen to be pretty common with her clients, as well.
When Lisa was making the decision to leave her previous marriage of 18 years, her now-ex-husband made her feel like if she left, then she would be responsible for breaking up their family, which included two kids. She would be to blame for destroying their kids’ lives.
So she did everything she could to stay and keep the family together. Ultimately, she realized that one person can’t make both people better. They wanted two different things, and it just wasn’t working.
Like so many others, Lisa knew she had to leave her marriage for herself. She didn’t know what would happen with the kids. She would figure that out later. But for her to survive, she had to go.
She describes the feeling of carrying a ball of pain inside of her trying to keep it all together. And when she admitted that it wasn’t working, and her ex left, there was such a sense of relief. A weight had been lifted.
She didn’t know what would happen next, but she knew she couldn’t try to control it, and letting go was so freeing. Now, she’s on the other side, has found the love of her life and created her business to help others through those same kinds of struggles.
Lisa’s clients are often dealing with ex-spouses who are not handling things with maturity and who are trying to take back control. There are a lot of hurt feelings and, often, a history of abuse.
In many of these cases, Lisa sees instances of coercive control, which means that some freedom has been taken away from one person in the relationship. It might look like financial abuse, where one person doesn’t have any control over the family’s money. It can also show up as social isolation or other types of verbal, psychological or sexual abuse.
Although they’re now in different living spaces, the parenting relationship is not over. Lisa says that the three main areas where conflict and abuse come up after a divorce are money, kids and court.
Legal abuse related to money and court conflicts go hand-in-hand. It’s all about winning and losing. The abusive partner wants to take everything - kids, money, time and control. Conflict around the kids lasts the longest and is the most painful.
In these situations, the child is often put into something called loyalty conflict, usually by the abusive parent. Kids are expected to choose sides and be loyal to one parent over the other. They’re then rewarded for rejecting the parent who's often the target of the abuse, often the safe, healthy, protective parent. The child may also be punished for showing affection or love to that parent.
This often starts even before the relationship ends. One parent might try to undermine the other or grill the child on everything that happened while they were at the other parent’s house. One of the most common things that they do is send poisonous messages about the other parent to the child, wanting them to believe that that other parent is unsafe, unloving or unavailable (even though the opposite is usually true).
This feels so scary and dangerous, because sometimes your kid will absorb these messages. They’ll be angry and confused and lash out at you. You feel triggered the same way you are by your ex, because you see that same behavior coming through your child.
We talk about this behavior as “poisoning the well”. As the parent, your challenge is to take the perspective that, no matter what, your well cannot be poisoned. You built it right. You are replenishing that well with clear, clean water, because you have nurtured a strong, connected relationship with your child. You’ll continue to tell them how much you love them and how safe they are with you, and that is enough.
When someone leaves an abusive situation, there is often a realization of, “Wow. I can start making decisions for myself.” Sometimes, they don’t even realize it’s been so long since they had that ability.
In this next stage, you’re working to find your center and your voice again.
Learn to self-regulate. As a parent, you have to be able to separate your fear and pain so that you can be a loving, compassionate presence. When you are calm, you can help your child process their own emotions.
It’s the same principle that makes Calm the first step in the Calm Mama Process. You cannot help your kids when you’re in pain. You have to heal and calm yourself before you can fully show up for your kid.
Get support. Lisa’s son is an adult now, but when asked what helped him get through his parents’ divorce, he says, “my mom kept it together.” She had a wonderful support system including her attorney, her father, good friends and an Al Anon group.
Focus on how you can set yourself up for success in this transition. Make a plan for how you will get the support you need to make the choice to leave, navigate the legal system and take excellent care of you and your kid. Open up to family or close friends that you trust, find a local group or work with a therapist or coach to get the support you need.
Be careful with your responses. Sometimes, when kids come home from the other parent’s house, they’re angry or they say things that trigger you. It’s human nature to want to defend ourselves and set the record straight, but Lisa says that’s actually a big mistake.
An abusive ex might say something to your kid, knowing that they’ll repeat it to you. They’re almost baiting you to get a reaction that they can use against you.
Plus, by trying to argue what they were told or correct the record, you’re basically doing the same behavior as the abusive person. You’re telling your child what to think. Give them space to figure it out on their own. Actions speak louder than words.
Lisa says one of the biggest questions that comes up with her clients is - How are my kids going to be okay?
In a divorce, the kids are often the ones whose lives change the most.
When you have experienced an abusive relationship, it’s easy to think, “My kids are screwed.” You might feel worried about the patterns repeating themselves.
We’re here to tell you that being a neutral, loving soundboard for your kid, emotionally coaching them, and healing on your own will heal your child.
Lisa has seen kids come out of these situations with extraordinary social and emotional intelligence. They learn at a younger age how to establish boundaries and develop resilience when dealing with difficult people in the world.
Here are some ways to support your child.
Allow your child to have their own experience. You may be experiencing a lot of pain, guilt or fear because of what’s going on in the relationship. But, often, our kids just want to live their lives. They might not be feeling everything that you are. They want to be with their friends, do their sports and activities, just be kids. And it’s good for them to do that.
Teach critical thinking skills. This is an important part of parenting, especially in these situations, because when kids can think for themselves, they don’t just have to take in what one person says and accept it as truth. They can ask questions like, “Who is saying this?” “Why are they saying it?” “Could it be true?” “Is there another way to look at this?”
You can practice these skills with your child outside of emotional moments, like when you’re reading a book together or watching a movie. Ask them what they thought of a situation in the story and talk about it. How would they have dealt with that situation? This way, you’re showing respect for their opinion and encouraging them to exercise the critical thinking muscle.
Be intentional with conversation. Especially when raising teens, make time for curiosity and casual conversations. We spend so much time talking about homework and cleaning their room and taking out the trash, not to mention any conversations about the other parent, that there isn’t time and bandwidth left for actually relating and connecting with each other. Create space for your relationship with your child to blossom.
Help your kid build self-awareness and identity. Use the Connection Tool to help them check in with how they’re feeling. Help them build and trust their own inner voice and guidance. Let them know that they get to choose how they want to think and feel about the people and situations in their lives. Support them in doing their own thinking and feeling. Give them space to figure it out.
If you are reading this and know that you are in a toxic relationship. If you’re terrified of leaving because you’re worried about your kid. I want you to know that you can figure it out. It’s going to be okay.
There is support out there for you to navigate this process. Reach out to Lisa or someone else that you trust. You are not alone.
In the long-term, love, generosity and compassion will win when it comes to your child. Healing and caring for yourself will heal them and teach them the emotional literacy skills that are so important.
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Alright. Welcome back to Become a calm mama. I'm your host. I'm Darlynn
Speaker:Childress. And today, we're going to talk about
Speaker:having a difficult ex. And I've invited Lisa
Speaker:Johnson to speak about this. And she's the cofounder
Speaker:of Been There, Got Out, which is a high calm, a,
Speaker:divorce coaching program. And she's also a certified domestic
Speaker:violence advocate. So Lisa will introduce herself. But before we even get into it, I
Speaker:was a to tell the audience. A couple weeks ago, I had on Maggie Reyes,
Speaker:and she talked a lot about how to be in a
Speaker:relationship, like how to handle, being in a
Speaker:marriage essentially. And I think it's really great to talk about,
Speaker:like, how do marriages end a how do you handle it a, like, what are
Speaker:the strategies? And so that's why I'm really excited to have Lisa here. So welcome,
Speaker:Lisa. Thank you. Yeah. Please tell us a little bit about your work
Speaker:and, like, your story Become I think it's so powerful, and then we'll get
Speaker:into some of the, like, strategies and topics. Okay. Yeah. So
Speaker:with been there, a out, I would say I'm the female half, and my partner,
Speaker:Chris, who was also my romantic partner for 9 years, is the male half.
Speaker:And we help people dealing with really difficult
Speaker:relationships, getting out of them at least,
Speaker:high conflict separations and divorce, custody battles, and coparenting
Speaker:hell a so that they can have the best outcome in
Speaker:family court and beyond. And so ours are
Speaker:the cases where, that go on for years a, you
Speaker:know, the anger doesn't sub
Speaker:And I can feel really alone and and isolating.
Speaker:Yeah. And, we have a we we do a
Speaker:on 1 coaching. Well, 2 on a Become it's Chris and I a. And we
Speaker:also have a weekly legal abuse support group where we talk about
Speaker:strategies in dealing with this going through and out of the
Speaker:court system. But also, the big issue seems to be, which was my
Speaker:hugest issue, how are my kids a to be okay? How are my kids going
Speaker:to be okay with a parent like that? And how do I co parent with
Speaker:someone who doesn't seem to really care about what's
Speaker:best for the kids or even about the kids at all sometimes.
Speaker:Right. They're just in their own need and their own, like, need for power or
Speaker:winning or whatever it is or, like, the money or they
Speaker:just want what they want, and it's not the kid yeah. Control.
Speaker:Right? The kids are either used as pawns, or if they've decided they're not
Speaker:necessary, maybe they don't even considered part of the
Speaker:process. Yeah. And that the parent who's connected and
Speaker:is, you know, staying in the parenting
Speaker:experience is committed to the children probably feels a lot of tension
Speaker:around that. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So I was
Speaker:yeah. I I was married for almost 18 years, and I was with my ex
Speaker:for 20. And we have 2 kids, and I
Speaker:did not understand I didn't even know what domestic abuse
Speaker:or domestic violence is. And I'm like you said, I think I'm a state certified
Speaker:domestic violence advocate. And many people who are in these
Speaker:relationships don't even realize what's going on. So it was
Speaker:only toward the end when it started getting more painful to stay
Speaker:than to go that I ever considered getting out because
Speaker:we didn't fight often. You know, I later found out
Speaker:he had a completely double life, and that was part of why it was time
Speaker:to go. But we had these 2 kids, a,
Speaker:my ex a of how he kept me in the relationship for longer
Speaker:was making it sound like if I left
Speaker:that relationship, then I would be responsible for breaking
Speaker:up an intact family and that I would be blamed
Speaker:for destroying these kids' lives, and I internalize that. And
Speaker:so did everything that could possibly have been done to
Speaker:try to keep it together. And in those last couple of years,
Speaker:it was physically painful to stay. I mean, it was
Speaker:so a, and anyone listening who is
Speaker:going through this now, it doesn't stay this way. But I know I I remember
Speaker:feeling like a physical ball of pain in my stomach
Speaker:every single day and feeling like, oh my gosh. If this could if I
Speaker:could just get rid of this. But at the same time, wishing
Speaker:that I'd do anything to keep it together, and it was only after
Speaker:finally taking the leap and saying, it's not
Speaker:working. Like, one person can't make both
Speaker:people better that things started getting
Speaker:improving, but, it was a process. And now I'm
Speaker:speaking on the other side of it, and I can say that
Speaker:I've never been happier in my life. I've found the love of my life.
Speaker:I my kids are fine. You know, I've got this amazing
Speaker:career. People say I've turned my mess into my message. A
Speaker:so, I love being able to talk to people who are going through it and
Speaker:being able to offer a lot of comfort as well as strategic
Speaker:a advice to get them through it and get them to the other side as
Speaker:well. Wow. What strength it took to make
Speaker:that a, like, that ball of pain as you describe, like, in
Speaker:your stomach, and it's just this terrible tightness. It's just probably
Speaker:fear and and anxiety and just this
Speaker:awful, like, a, and then you make
Speaker:that a. It sounds like over time that a, and you
Speaker:feel it's replaced with a do you think? Yeah. Well, I mean, A
Speaker:you're you're the feelings queen. You're the a
Speaker:translator. I was thinking a the word trepidation,
Speaker:but the the the immediate feeling you know, I remember
Speaker:the conversation after 2 years of
Speaker:just, like, confusion and hope
Speaker:and doubt and every just everything,
Speaker:disappointment. But I remember that particular conversation when
Speaker:something just clicked, and I said, you know what? To my ex, like,
Speaker:I think I'm realizing that you and I just want completely different
Speaker:things. Like, I'm doing everything to keep our family together,
Speaker:and you just wanna be happy and do what you wanna do, and it's just
Speaker:not gonna work. So tomorrow, I'm ready. I'm gonna be
Speaker:okay. I don't know what's gonna happen with the kids, but that's it.
Speaker:And with that decision, it was, like,
Speaker:such relief of just letting go already. Like, I I can't
Speaker:keep controlling. Like, I give a, and then that it felt like so
Speaker:freeing. A then, of course, you know, it's a roller coaster as we know.
Speaker:Yes. That's what we're gonna talk about. And it's really hard. Yeah. Really hard. But
Speaker:but just that relief. And literally, as soon as
Speaker:he went out, the air in the house felt
Speaker:different. It felt like this weight had lifted. The kids
Speaker:sensed it. We have a of people that we've talked to
Speaker:who've experienced that similar feeling of, like, a physical
Speaker:lifting after that person's presence
Speaker:is is away. I mean, of course, you know, with a Chris and I deal
Speaker:with is a lot of post separation a, but, wow, just
Speaker:just your physical living space really does change. Yeah.
Speaker:It's so cool because you said, I get yeah. I give a.
Speaker:And I kept thinking you give up the pain, you give up the struggle, you
Speaker:give up the control, and it's replaced by peace
Speaker:and relief and, like, what are you giving into? You
Speaker:know? Where are you going? I just I I think we think, okay. I'm
Speaker:I'm a, but you what you're offering is that there's another side. Like,
Speaker:you release that pain and that trepidation, and you
Speaker:take the leap, and there is so much goodness on the other side and
Speaker:pain for sure. Right. It's not it's not the absence of
Speaker:it, but then I would imagine the hope of a future
Speaker:starts to take place. Right? Well, first, it was just
Speaker:relief. I I didn't even know what I A you're offering hope for
Speaker:all of us because you're like Right. You're like, yeah. Okay. I'm I'm real
Speaker:you know, felt that relief, and then you're saying, and it just got
Speaker:better and better. Well, also another since, you know, I love talking
Speaker:about emotions now. Like, thinking about it, like, it was a
Speaker:this enormous sense of freedom. A many of our clients are
Speaker:in relationships that involve something called coercive control,
Speaker:which is a crime of liberty Become they their freedom has been taken away in
Speaker:so many different methods, like the financial
Speaker:abuse where they they haven't had control of the money. They don't understand that. There's
Speaker:been verbal or psychological or sexual or, you know,
Speaker:legal there's isolation, stalking, and to to let
Speaker:it go and to be like, wow. I can start making decisions
Speaker:for myself when it's been so long since I've
Speaker:realized that I haven't been making decisions. It's really powerful.
Speaker:Mhmm. Yeah. Finding your own voice after a really long
Speaker:time. Right. Finding your center. Yeah. Like,
Speaker:really kinda tuning in quite a bit. And I think it's
Speaker:so interesting you said, you know, I'm gonna be okay. I don't know about the
Speaker:kids. Like, at at a certain point, you were like, I
Speaker:am going to go take care of myself, and Yeah. We're gonna figure out
Speaker:the rest. Not not in any form of abandonment. Just like in
Speaker:order to survive, I have to go, and
Speaker:I will figure out what to do with my kids later. And
Speaker:in the process that I teach for my listeners, they know it's like calm comes
Speaker:before connect, and we do have to
Speaker:we cannot offer what we don't have. We cannot help our kids
Speaker:when we're in pain, and, you know, of
Speaker:course, we wanna move through that pain so we can help our a, and
Speaker:sometimes it takes time and whatever. That's fine. But,
Speaker:yes, we have to sometimes choose ourselves, and that can feel so wrong as a
Speaker:mom, especially. Well, one thing too was the
Speaker:guilt. Like, at some point, you know, when you're dealing with someone
Speaker:who's got, I'll just say issues,
Speaker:You know, you can get consumed by them. And I was spending
Speaker:sometimes 6 hours a day trying to talk to my
Speaker:husband. We go down to the basement, and it was like I kept trying to
Speaker:convince him that he was delusional and in denial and,
Speaker:like, what would happen and what this really meant. And I was getting
Speaker:exhausted. And the whole time, it was like, I'm not paying attention to these kids.
Speaker:Like, I didn't even know what was going on, but I was just, like,
Speaker:so a. Consumed. Yeah. Yeah. Consumed too.
Speaker:And I I just felt like I have to take care of these kids. Like,
Speaker:I cannot go on like this. I mean, that 6 hours a day didn't
Speaker:last for that a, but there were moments and I looking back, it's like I
Speaker:was I was doing completely the wrong thing. But you kinda have
Speaker:to know. Yourself. Yeah. Yeah. That's why we have guides that come up,
Speaker:alongside of us. That's why we're coaches. That's why we have mentors because
Speaker:there's things we don't know how to do. I always say that in parenting. It's,
Speaker:like, why would you know how to set a limit or how to teach a
Speaker:kid to potty train? Like, I don't know. There's no reason that you would know
Speaker:that a That's the same thing with with our clients who are like, I,
Speaker:you know, I didn't understand as I I was going through the a. I'm like,
Speaker:how would you know who's done this before? Right. Why would you
Speaker:anticipate that you'd ever have to become an expert on you know, like you said,
Speaker:you had helped a law be passed in Connecticut around coercive
Speaker:control and and identifying that as part
Speaker:of the domestic violence acts. And it's like you didn't be
Speaker:set out to become an expert on coercive control. I know. I a
Speaker:say I never was like a little girl dreaming. Oh, I wanna be a high
Speaker:conflict divorce strategist when I get older. No.
Speaker:Right. Yeah. I do think, you
Speaker:know, sometimes I've noticed when someone gets divorced, like, if they're in a social group
Speaker:and they're saying, oh, we're getting divorced, and people go, oh, I'm so sorry. And
Speaker:I think the person who made that decision is only
Speaker:in joy and relief. Like, it a dis it's like the 2 years prior
Speaker:is when they really maybe needed the I'm so sorry you're going through
Speaker:this hard a. But once the decision's made, you're
Speaker:like, oh, no. No. It's better now. I know. The hope.
Speaker:Yeah. That's exactly it. I mean, for 2 years, I only
Speaker:told 3 friends, and
Speaker:and they did the best they could, but I wasn't getting good advice from them
Speaker:because they also didn't quite understand. But I didn't wanna tell anybody in my
Speaker:family because I kept thinking if people find out what's going on, they're gonna
Speaker:hate him forever. And I kept trying to reconcile. So I just was like, I'm
Speaker:gonna have to keep this hidden and until I'm, like, really, really sure.
Speaker:And so it is like there's all this secrecy and shame
Speaker:around what's happening. And it and, yeah, by the time I said I'm getting
Speaker:divorced, people a like, oh, and I'm like, no. I am, like, really
Speaker:glad. And people still will say to me, I'm so sorry
Speaker:you've been through all this, like, a, you know, a 100 court appearances and
Speaker:all this money. I'm like, no. I'm I'm really glad that this I mean,
Speaker:I wouldn't wish it on someone, but if that hadn't happened,
Speaker:then I wouldn't have this amazing life. Yeah.
Speaker:Right. It's so true. Like, we have to go through these hard
Speaker:things sometimes in order to get the next thing.
Speaker:And yep. It's bombing. That's true of, like, children.
Speaker:It's like how do they become resilient? How do they grow up? How do they
Speaker:learn things? It's like through obstacles. It's through overcoming obstacles. It's from
Speaker:learning how to handle those things, and so it's like
Speaker:you're a prime example of that. You're like, I went through something
Speaker:really, really hard, and now I'm who I am because of it.
Speaker:Yeah. I mean and that's something, like, I I mentioned earlier, like, I
Speaker:was so worried about my kids not
Speaker:being okay. Mhmm. And,
Speaker:and and they are okay, but it took a lot of work. But my
Speaker:son was on a podcast. He's a young adult. Now he's 4, so he can
Speaker:you know, he's been years that he can talk freely. But he was
Speaker:asked, like, what what helped you as a Childress? Or he
Speaker:was a teenager at the time. What helped you get through it,
Speaker:well? And he said, my mom kept it a.
Speaker:And he didn't. And I didn't know he was going to say that, but I
Speaker:didn't realize I was getting support through
Speaker:that time period. And my my partner, Chris, you know, I met
Speaker:shortly after finally getting my ex. I felt like my marriage had been over for
Speaker:more than 2 years. And we met, and we didn't realize that we were both
Speaker:going through something similar. And then my my dad helped me with a
Speaker:lot. I did have some good friends. I had my a wonderful
Speaker:divorce attorney. I joined Al Anon, which I didn't
Speaker:understand what it I thought I was dealing with one thing, but it was
Speaker:actually helping with, like, a few things. Yeah. We've talked about,
Speaker:Al Anon is for codependency, and I've talked about it on the a, codependency a
Speaker:parenting. I did an episode on that, how it shows up
Speaker:when we are in a codependent relationship with our kids, like, even when they're
Speaker:little. So, yeah, if anyone's curious, they can go back in the
Speaker:archive and look for that. A, yeah, So Al Anon, if you're dealing with anybody,
Speaker:any relationship struggle where you're not sure where you begin and they end
Speaker:Mhmm. That's a good Al Anon is a great per place for that,
Speaker:for sure. My gosh. Al Anon was so helpful in teaching me
Speaker:emotional detachment. Mhmm. I I just I was
Speaker:consumed, like we said, with what was going on. And I I
Speaker:remember going to a meeting in the front a. All these people were, like, so
Speaker:happy, and I thought, this is crazy. I'm crying and being like, I don't know
Speaker:what to tell my kids about, you know, this this divorce and everything,
Speaker:and they just gave me excellent advice. And over just
Speaker:a couple months, I got so much better. So
Speaker:that's so good. So this I wanted to talk about, like, some strategies that
Speaker:you learned along the way dealing with your ex Become it's
Speaker:like getting to the point where you end the relationship
Speaker:is great, like, powerful for you and the and the
Speaker:but then they're not gone. No. And,
Speaker:and the people that you work with, right, they're the parents are still around.
Speaker:They are wanting to have their own set of
Speaker:rules and boundaries. They're wanting to have
Speaker:I don't know. You tell me. Like, what are some of the issues that come
Speaker:up when it's over? Because a we're talking about a x.
Speaker:So sometimes people separate, still painful, whatever, and they get to the
Speaker:point, and then they figure it out together. Yeah. Not our not our
Speaker:people. No. Because then there's a lot of hurt hurt feelings, wanna
Speaker:get the control back. There's, you know, issues that come
Speaker:up if if the other person
Speaker:doesn't handle it maturely. Yeah. Right? Mature
Speaker:isn't even a word that enters our realm.
Speaker:Describe it. Let's go for it. So, okay, so we
Speaker:often think about how, you know, because because
Speaker:our clients are all dealing with some type of domestic abuse, and it's always
Speaker:emotional on top of other things. Mhmm. But, that that
Speaker:other person, like, when the relationship ends and you are in different living
Speaker:spaces, the the abusive party is
Speaker:limited in the ways they can still get at you because they don't have that
Speaker:day to day interaction. So I always say that they're limited to 3
Speaker:main things. It's money, kids, and the court. And so money in
Speaker:the court go hand in hand, and that's legal abuse, which Chris and I specialize
Speaker:in. But kids last the longest and are the most painful.
Speaker:And so often when a couple separates
Speaker:and there's children involved, the kids will be put into
Speaker:something called a loyalty conflict by a of the usually the
Speaker:abusive parent, because that parent, it's always like everything's
Speaker:about winning and losing. And so they feel
Speaker:like the best way to often punish that other parent is to take the
Speaker:kid. They want to take everything, actually. Like one of the lines that comes up
Speaker:is like, I'm gonna make you poor, and I'm taking the kids too. Yeah.
Speaker:So, I'm gonna take all your money and your children and all your time with
Speaker:the court system. Right. Right. So and it's not it's I
Speaker:mean, it it like, we have male and female clients, and we see it
Speaker:go various directions. But legal abuse is definitely
Speaker:something that's, like, 5050. Like, people lie all the time in court.
Speaker:We've talked to we interview attorneys constantly, and they're like, no. It's not like
Speaker:a male female thing in the court system. It's it's a of them do
Speaker:it. So that's awful. But, back to the kids,
Speaker:it's the same thing. But both women and men do it.
Speaker:And so the thing that was that's interesting is it often
Speaker:starts before the relationship even ends.
Speaker:So I I think back to my own
Speaker:relationship with my ex and how he would very
Speaker:subtly undermine things that I was doing. Like, for example, my
Speaker:son, he was always, like, a very
Speaker:strong willed child, and he would test a lot. And so,
Speaker:you know, I tried it. And on the background of his teacher side, like, discipline
Speaker:him and not a, but I'd be like, no. You know, you have to stop,
Speaker:and you need to, like, do whatever, you know, and it make him sit out
Speaker:or whatever it was I make him do. But his father would
Speaker:constantly come in and be like, oh, Izzy, you don't have to,
Speaker:like, you don't have to listen to mom. She's just cranky. You
Speaker:can you can do something and, like, take it back. So
Speaker:I'd be like, no. No. No. No. Like, he like, we need to address
Speaker:what he did, and but my ex husband would be like, no. You can take
Speaker:it back. And that really made things awful, not just for
Speaker:me with Izzy not respecting me and acting like that my
Speaker:parenting didn't matter and that his father was really the one in charge. But it
Speaker:taught my son that that there were no consequences to his
Speaker:behavior. And he became harder to parent because he just thought, well,
Speaker:whatever I do, I could just say I'm sorry. A, like, he I think
Speaker:he struggled in some ways with empathy because he he learned, like, it doesn't
Speaker:matter. It's all about, like, me and what I wanna do. A so we've
Speaker:had to to work on that a bit. You know, it's been a little bit
Speaker:harder for him because of how he was raised with that. But thinking back, I'm
Speaker:like, wow. My ex was always undermining me. Mhmm.
Speaker:You know? And I just didn't know exactly that that's what was that's
Speaker:what was happening. Yeah. And do you think that's because,
Speaker:like, the person wants to be the most liked?
Speaker:Like, they want to have the most favor with the Childress? Like, they wanna
Speaker:be considered the favorite parent or the the one who's into
Speaker:control, but also most forgiving and most you know, holds all the
Speaker:cards. Yeah. It's the loyalty. It's like, are you gonna side with
Speaker:me, or Are you gonna go with the other parent? And for them, it's
Speaker:like in normal relationships, you recognize that your
Speaker:child loves both a, and they need both parents.
Speaker:But in an abusive situation a abusers like to a child, they're like,
Speaker:you're either with me or against me. A if you love me and if
Speaker:you want me to love you, then you need to reject or discard that
Speaker:other parent Become that's what I did. You need to do as I do. So
Speaker:that child is rewarded for rejecting
Speaker:a parent who's often the target of the domestic violence, often the
Speaker:safe, healthy, protective parent and then punished
Speaker:for showing affection or love to that parent.
Speaker:And there's all kinds of things that happen where, like, a child is
Speaker:grilled, like, after they come back from the other parent's house. What did you do?
Speaker:What did they do? And, you know, like feeding information. There's all kinds
Speaker:of ways that that that abusive
Speaker:parent will affect the Childress. Like, one of the way and this
Speaker:is actually the topic, I think, I told you of the book that we're working
Speaker:on now. It's our a book about how to handle when your
Speaker:toxic ex is trying to brainwash the kids against you in court
Speaker:and in life. And one of the most common things that they do is they
Speaker:send poisonous messages about the other parent to
Speaker:the child, and it's not overtly a. But I call it
Speaker:the 3 u's. It's like they want the child to believe that that other
Speaker:parent is unsafe, unloving, or
Speaker:unavailable. So let's say let's say
Speaker:that you once you get out of the a, let's say you're
Speaker:the the target parent, like the, you know, the healthier parent. Mhmm.
Speaker:You get in a new relationship. Your ex is gonna
Speaker:say, see how you, the other parent,
Speaker:you don't care about the Childress. Like like your mama, let's say it's
Speaker:me. Your mom doesn't care about you because look look how busy she is with
Speaker:her boyfriend and his family, and she loves his kids more than you.
Speaker:Yeah. So she doesn't really love you, but I do because, look, I'm
Speaker:not the one in it in another relationship. However, let's
Speaker:say my ex, for example, was was in a relationship and I
Speaker:was single, then it would be like, oh, see. Your your mother's unworthy of love.
Speaker:Like, she can't find anyone. Yeah. Twisting it either direction to point.
Speaker:I keep thinking a phrase poison the well. Poison the well? It's
Speaker:perfect. I interviewed doctor Christopher Willard, who's a Harvard psychologist,
Speaker:and he used that term as also poisoning the well. Poisoning the
Speaker:well. Right? And this is one of the things we talked about on your podcast
Speaker:of, like, if we, as the parent, really go
Speaker:into that perspective of no matter what, you can't poison this
Speaker:well Become I built this well. Like, this well, I make this water. I'm
Speaker:the one this is my spring that this well is replenished with.
Speaker:And holding that and owning that, like, you're you can try,
Speaker:but I know that my relationship with my kid is strong.
Speaker:I can continue to tell my child how much I love them and how safe
Speaker:they are with me, and that that is enough. It's like like
Speaker:a Jedi mind trick almost. A like who
Speaker:who's gonna quote win my child's brain or my child's
Speaker:heart? And I think love in the long term and
Speaker:and generosity and compassion wins. Yeah.
Speaker:But in the middle of it, it can probably feel so
Speaker:dangerous and so scary and such a rejection.
Speaker:Yeah. Because often the child will absorb some
Speaker:of these messages and come back to the target parent
Speaker:and say, my other parents said this about you. And they're they'll be very
Speaker:angry and confused and lashing out. And we, as parents,
Speaker:were like, I got away from my ex, and now my child is
Speaker:acting just like that person. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yes. There's all
Speaker:these uncomfortable feelings of, like, I wanna
Speaker:you know, like, you we get triggered by that same behavior coming through our
Speaker:child. That's why it's also called abuse by proxy because we're
Speaker:being abused by them. And it's so complex. Like, sometimes
Speaker:your ex may be saying things to your child, knowing that the child's
Speaker:gonna say it to you, almost to bait you to get
Speaker:the reaction. And then your child reports back what happened,
Speaker:and then they use it against you in court or whatever to make it like,
Speaker:see, you're an unfit parent. So it's it's you have to be so careful
Speaker:about, your response. And that's why it's really important to understand,
Speaker:first of all, that your children are also victims of domestic
Speaker:violence, like the fact that they are being subjected to this
Speaker:and that they're dependent. They can't. I mean, you hopefully got
Speaker:away. They can't. They're the ones who are stuck
Speaker:going back and forth. They're the the ones whose lives have changed the most,
Speaker:really. Right. And they are gonna
Speaker:grow up, and they're gonna be able to make choices just like you did in
Speaker:that relationship. Right. Like, it might take
Speaker:time until they decide this is not a relationship I wanna be in
Speaker:anymore. And they may in
Speaker:that process, it's like holding space for the
Speaker:future of when your child comes online. And
Speaker:it's like it's like, I'm sure your friends were like, come on, Lisa.
Speaker:Leave him. He's not good for you. And you're like, no. He's
Speaker:we were gonna work it out or you have reasons to stay and your
Speaker:children have reasons to stay. And then at some point, they don't
Speaker:have reasons to stay. And they're gonna choose where the love is. They're
Speaker:gonna go where the the relationship is is
Speaker:actually not conditional. Yeah. It's tricky, though, because
Speaker:often these abusive people have money. They
Speaker:use money. Mhmm. I know. Even, like, young
Speaker:adults and adult children will be like, I can't stand that
Speaker:one person, but they're paying for my calm, and they're paying for
Speaker:my college. And, you know, it's very, very difficult. A lot of
Speaker:times, kids don't realize what's going on until they're in their forties
Speaker:or they have children or the, you know, their own children. But, I mean,
Speaker:there's ways to, you know, to find out earlier, but it can take
Speaker:decades for them to really understand the dynamic. And it's
Speaker:so hard for the other parent because you're like, how can I wait this
Speaker:long? But there are things you can do, certainly,
Speaker:in the meantime. Well and I think holding like, it's
Speaker:easier for your child to come to
Speaker:realization if they have a space of
Speaker:understanding where you can really hold
Speaker:like like, what you're saying, like, my child is a victim right now.
Speaker:And what does the victim need? Right? They need agency. They need
Speaker:compassion. They need the ability to reflect.
Speaker:And when you are able to separate
Speaker:your fear and your pain, and that's really a
Speaker:huge task. I understand that as a parent as
Speaker:a person. But for your child and benefit of them, it's like,
Speaker:yep. I know what it's like to be in a relationship with this person. I
Speaker:know how it feels unsafe to to
Speaker:question anything they're saying or
Speaker:to, you know, act disloyal because everything is
Speaker:conditional. Money is conditional. Love is conditional.
Speaker:And and holding the
Speaker:the compassionate lens for your child and also believing in their own
Speaker:ability to move out of that relationship. Yep.
Speaker:It whenever that's time, like, you're just there. You're just a loving,
Speaker:compassionate presence. Right. And easier said than a, of
Speaker:course. For sure. Right. And that's why it is, like,
Speaker:one of the best things that you can do for your child is to be
Speaker:self a. A, that's exactly, Darlynn, what you
Speaker:do with parents is you help them self a. You help
Speaker:them stay calm Become we're not calm. We can't co
Speaker:regulate with our children and help them process their own emotions
Speaker:and experience the world, in a productive way.
Speaker:So so we have to be self regulated. And the
Speaker:thing that comes up a lot, like when kids come from that other home
Speaker:and they're so angry and they're saying things to us and triggering us, they are
Speaker:it's human nature to want to defend ourselves
Speaker:and set the record straight just like we did in the relationship Become we're getting
Speaker:blamed for things that aren't our fault and it's not fair. But that's
Speaker:actually a big mistake to do that Become
Speaker:often the child comes home or even, let's say, a teenager
Speaker:Teenager hears a certain message. They come back and they start yelling at you and
Speaker:questioning you, you know, and then so they've been
Speaker:told something. Clearly, it's upsetting them, and they're
Speaker:coming to you with it. If you come back by saying that's not true
Speaker:a then you try to correct the record, which is, again, what we all want
Speaker:to do, you're basically doing the same
Speaker:behavior as the abusive person because you're telling them what to
Speaker:think. Yeah. Kids, teenagers, we all trust
Speaker:authorities. We think they're telling us the truth. Kids think that their both parents are
Speaker:telling them the truth. So they don't know who's lying.
Speaker:But if one parent says this about this happened and then the other
Speaker:parent says no, you're also
Speaker:insulting the child's intelligence, especially a teenager who's saying they're
Speaker:thinking you're not you don't you're making me feel like I don't I can't
Speaker:decide things for myself. Yeah. Like, you're not giving me any
Speaker:space. Nobody's listening to what I think or letting
Speaker:me question anything or feel anything. It's all a, you need to think this. No.
Speaker:You you need to think that. Mhmm. And my background is as a high school
Speaker:English teacher, and one of the things that I felt was a really strong
Speaker:priority for my students was to teach them critical thinking
Speaker:skills. And I think as parents and as people, we
Speaker:also really need to help kids in a, but kids
Speaker:specifically in these situations develop very strong critical
Speaker:thinking skills. So they don't just take in what one person says, and
Speaker:it can help them like, it'll help anybody, actually, in our
Speaker:society process the world. Like, what's this like, who's saying this? Why
Speaker:are they saying it? What's the message that they want me to think? Why do
Speaker:they want me to think this? And all of those are questions. Right?
Speaker:They're like a ended questions of curiosity
Speaker:and inquiry that you're offering, and that is why
Speaker:we wanna be as neutral as possible. That's why we wanna be calm
Speaker:so that we can then guide our child to think about things. Like, could
Speaker:that be true? Is there another way to view this? What do you
Speaker:think? Exactly. The what do you think? Why do you think that way? Why
Speaker:would you how did you come to that perspective? And to
Speaker:do it not just in these really emotional moments,
Speaker:but as as an English teacher, I like I was constantly like
Speaker:writing lesson plans because when I'd go out and I'd see a movie, I'd be
Speaker:like, Oh, I can teach this movie. I'd love to hear what my students have
Speaker:to say about it. You know? So so sometimes, you know, we you could
Speaker:read a book together with your child. Like, you read the same book and then
Speaker:talk about it, or you watch a movie together that's a. And
Speaker:talk about it. Talk about a situation with a friend that you
Speaker:had when you were a. Kids love a, and
Speaker:my students did. They love to hear about what you were like when you were
Speaker:younger and how you dealt with a situation or even as an adult, like
Speaker:adult friendships. How did I work through something? Because you're also
Speaker:modeling for them ways that they might be able to handle a.
Speaker:Or what what would you have done if you were me? You're showing
Speaker:them respect for their opinion. Mhmm. You're encouraging them to use
Speaker:that muscle of, like, critical thinking, making them think why they
Speaker:would do something like that. And, again, not just relating it to their
Speaker:other Parent. Yeah. You know, because that's not really helpful Become, again, a lot of
Speaker:kids do feel torn. So we could there's so many other
Speaker:things to talk about. Yes. And we always talk about talk about raising
Speaker:teens, especially, it's like curiosity conversations and
Speaker:casual conversations because we spend so much time just talking
Speaker:about, like, not necessarily the other parent, but
Speaker:how much homework do you have, and did you clean your room, and have you
Speaker:taken out the trash? And it's like it sucks up all the bandwidth for
Speaker:the actual relational stuff. And if you're hyper a on
Speaker:your ex and and their relationship with their child,
Speaker:you're not really allowing your relationship with your child to blossom and
Speaker:bloom in these other areas outside of your ex. Right? Right. A,
Speaker:also, sometimes we think, like, that just because what
Speaker:we're like, the way that what we're experiencing is what our child
Speaker:is experiencing. So we're like, in our community, we're experiencing so much
Speaker:pain because of what's going on with the relationship, and it
Speaker:is so consuming. But our kids often, they just
Speaker:wanna live their lives. Like, they don't care. They wanna
Speaker:be kids. They wanna be teens. They wanna be with their friends, go to their
Speaker:parties, do their sports and other activities. Yeah. No. They're definitely
Speaker:in their own world. Right. And it's good for them to to to do that.
Speaker:And so often, sometimes, you try to remember, like, they are not
Speaker:seeing the world the way you are. And just because it and I know
Speaker:sometimes my heart would be broken more for my kids because I would
Speaker:think, oh, they must be feeling this because I I'm watching them. And if
Speaker:I were in that situation but it's not the same thing. You know? Right.
Speaker:Right. It's really like, if they wanna talk to us, that's fine. But it's
Speaker:it's hard it's hard to a being somewhat codependent too. It's hard
Speaker:for me to set it was really hard for me to separate from what they
Speaker:might be feeling. You know? Which is why it's so great.
Speaker:Like, you know, the connection tool that I teach is to ask a question. Like,
Speaker:I wonder if you're feeling overwhelmed, and they're like, no. This is fun. I'm
Speaker:free. I like managing all this stuff. Like, I love being busy all a. And
Speaker:you're like, oh, cool. Okay. Like, I'm just asking,
Speaker:and then they're like they the whole idea of critical thinking a any of it,
Speaker:it's just really a. Right? Self awareness, building up our own
Speaker:identity within. And if you wanna, like, inoculate
Speaker:your kids against being susceptible
Speaker:to sort of any domestic violence experience, I would imagine it would be
Speaker:about their own identity, building that really strong within their own
Speaker:voice and their own, you know, guidance
Speaker:and their own, like, antenna and flags and all of that
Speaker:to build within them. And that comes through
Speaker:inquiry and questions and awareness. And Yeah. I mean, one
Speaker:thing that I I had to learn in my forties
Speaker:was to pause and pay attention to
Speaker:my gut and to not not when I was in the
Speaker:midst of, like, a PTSD moment Become there you like, you can't
Speaker:trust your gut. Your amygdala is all worn out. And, you know, everything
Speaker:is discombobulated. But to really pause and be like, how do I
Speaker:feel at this moment? Yeah. And I remember after
Speaker:my first date with my partner, Chris, I sat in the
Speaker:calm, and I was like, how do I feel? Like, that's so stupid. I was
Speaker:like, how do I feel? That was fun. Like, I had fun. That
Speaker:was a good time. Right. Yes. I would go out with him again. I'm not
Speaker:attracted to him yet, but, you know, that was I like I had a good
Speaker:time. And so that's one thing that I do with my
Speaker:daughter in particular Become she's very, like, I'm not sure. And then she she
Speaker:often asks other people, you know, what a you think I should do? And I'm
Speaker:like, okay. Pause. Feel like how do you feel? Like,
Speaker:what do you think? Like, you've been through something by like
Speaker:this before. Try to remember a to give her the skills to have
Speaker:faith in herself Yeah. That to help her talk herself through
Speaker:it. Right. And that's such a beautiful gift when you're with
Speaker:your kids, whether, you know, whenever you separate,
Speaker:like, whether they're little or they're teens or whatever, it's like knowing they're
Speaker:having an experience outside of your
Speaker:you, right, with their a, and they would wanna
Speaker:process that. They we wanna give them the tools to think about it
Speaker:critically, to evaluate how they felt, just
Speaker:tapping into all of that emotional literacy, that, deeper
Speaker:understanding. And what I
Speaker:I think about with, like, when you have an ex
Speaker:who really took a lot of your own brain for a long time and then
Speaker:you've given, like you said, 6 hours for, you know, several weeks where you're
Speaker:processing with him and, you know, all that. It's like, how much time do you
Speaker:still wanna spend on this person? Mhmm. And if you
Speaker:can just let them do their thing a then
Speaker:just be with your kid and show up in this relationship
Speaker:with your child that will serve
Speaker:not just your relationship with your kid, but your kid Become they're growing their own
Speaker:intuition and their own deeper understanding.
Speaker:Right. And you can be the guide for that. Yes. And that feels
Speaker:so good to know that there's somebody who's paying a.
Speaker:Right. Who's a. Who's listening to them Become a other
Speaker:side is not listening. No. Because they're just in their own agenda, their
Speaker:own need to get whatever they their needs met, need for power, need for
Speaker:control, need for position, whatever that is. And it's
Speaker:like you have unmet needs as well as a
Speaker:person, but not using your child to get those
Speaker:needs met. Yeah. For sure. Right? Learning to,
Speaker:like, calm and cope within a then getting
Speaker:you know, connecting with your kids and helping them understand,
Speaker:like, how do you wanna think and feel about mommy or daddy or whoever? And,
Speaker:like, they're like, what? I have the ability to decide?
Speaker:Right? Because that's the other thing. Kids in these situations don't
Speaker:have agency in a lot of ways. So to allow
Speaker:them to feel a, to question,
Speaker:they need that. Yes. And they need to know you're not gonna be like, see,
Speaker:I told you. Right. I knew I'm telling you, your dad's lying
Speaker:to you. Like, yeah, you said you can't come from your need to protect
Speaker:yourself or defend yourself or, you know, it's so
Speaker:difficult to, like, really that's why the support is so
Speaker:important that you described, like, having these other
Speaker:places where you can process all of the
Speaker:stuff that's happening in your head, really.
Speaker:A this is fears. This is also really significant that you
Speaker:do deal with these issues because there's something called intergenerational
Speaker:trauma. Mhmm. And it's not just stored in our bodies, but it
Speaker:continues with our children. And we don't want our kids to
Speaker:do the same thing. So we have to do things differently.
Speaker:So by taking care of yourself and working through things and developing these
Speaker:really strong relationships with their kids and helping them develop these
Speaker:skills, critical thinking skills, they won't make
Speaker:the same mistakes, hopefully. Yeah. They'll be questioning more.
Speaker:Right. They're doing their own thinking and feeling. I
Speaker:I my vision for the world is that we heal the next generation
Speaker:in advance so that they don't have to,
Speaker:like, unpack and recover from their childhood in
Speaker:their late twenties thirties, and then finally go out and live their, like,
Speaker:full free life in their forties. It's like, what if they could have
Speaker:that sort of, you know, emotional independence
Speaker:and and confidence in their twenties. Like, what will
Speaker:happen if we launch emotionally healthy
Speaker:kids into the world? And this I
Speaker:think when you have had an experience with abuse
Speaker:and being in a domestic violence relationship, it can
Speaker:feel like, oh, my kids are screwed. Or, you know, like, that's
Speaker:you know, you're so worried about the patterns repeating and not
Speaker:feeling like they're they're gonna be okay like you started with.
Speaker:And just knowing that emotional
Speaker:coaching, being neutral, being that
Speaker:loving soundboard for them, and healing on your
Speaker:own will heal your kids. Yeah. I mean, we we
Speaker:often say to our clients that even though it's terrible that the
Speaker:kids are in a situation like this, it's actually this amazing opportunity
Speaker:because kids and I've seen it with my own kids, and I've seen it in
Speaker:a lot of other people in the situation with their kids. They learn to
Speaker:develop extraordinary social and emotional intelligence.
Speaker:They learn at a younger age how to establish boundaries Become often they have
Speaker:to learn to do it with the hardest person, a parent. And
Speaker:so they are far ahead of their peers in
Speaker:terms of if, you know, if if you teach them properly, like having
Speaker:this amazing these skills that they can go out into the
Speaker:world with. So even though it's it's it's
Speaker:sad that they had to be put in this situation, they really,
Speaker:are remarkable in terms of the resilience that they have the opportunity
Speaker:to develop. And, again, like the way they'll be be able to
Speaker:navigate more effectively with not just a toxic
Speaker:parent, but the world, because there's going to be a lot of other people,
Speaker:a lot of difficult people they'll have to deal with, but they will have the
Speaker:knowledge from having this unfortunate
Speaker:opportunity. Right. If you can set boundaries and emotionally
Speaker:coach yourself when you have a toxic parent, you could pretty much
Speaker:Right. Go anywhere, do anything. Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah. So the skills that you teach your kids sounds like is
Speaker:like, you know, that's the pathway to amazing things,
Speaker:amazing opportunities for them. Yeah. So anyone out
Speaker:there listening who's like, you know, I don't
Speaker:I wanna leave. I know I'm in a toxic relationship. I'm terrified for my
Speaker:children. They can bank this episode and just be like,
Speaker:no. Okay. It's worth it. It's gonna be okay. We can figure it out.
Speaker:And then if they are in that place and they're like, well, I want Lisa
Speaker:in my corner, how do they find you? What do they do? How do they
Speaker:get this kind of support while they're leaving? Oh,
Speaker:super easy. Just just type been there, got out,
Speaker:like, anywhere, and you'll find us. We're on Instagram,
Speaker:YouTube. We have the podcast. Our book is on
Speaker:Amazon, our first book. I mean, we're at
Speaker:TikTok a, I think, like x
Speaker:everywhere. And our website has been there got out.com.
Speaker:You can just write to us at a, or
Speaker:Chris is the male half. Chris at been there, got out.com. You could write to
Speaker:both of us. We always answer. I do all the social media
Speaker:myself. I answer everything. I mean, who knows if it gets, like,
Speaker:humongous that I won't have time. But, yeah, there's it's just the 2 of us.
Speaker:We're real people and, just get in touch. We do, like, a
Speaker:free discovery call as of this moment, and we
Speaker:wanna know what's going on. And we wanna figure out if there's ways that we
Speaker:can help you, but we have extensive experience. Each of us
Speaker:came out of long term toxic marriage. We both have kids,
Speaker:and, we managed to find true healthy love in midlife, which is
Speaker:something we don't really talk about too often with our clients who are dealing
Speaker:with the muck of the a system. But I think that anyone
Speaker:who wants to hear, like, wonderful stories of hope and that the kids
Speaker:can be okay, we're we're very happy to talk to them and help lead
Speaker:them and their children to the other side. Yeah. I love
Speaker:that. I was thinking I asked you about, like, privacy. I remember when we
Speaker:met, and I was like, well, what is it like on your groups? And you
Speaker:were like, oh, we don't record. People don't get cameras off.
Speaker:And I think that's nice to hear because when you're working with the court
Speaker:system, it can be super scary to say anything
Speaker:and to put yourself out there Become it feels like anything you say can get
Speaker:back to the courts. And so you have The digital
Speaker:footprint can. Yes. So media calm, all that
Speaker:stuff, Facebook groups. Mhmm. That yeah. There's a lot of
Speaker:there's a lot of danger with Facebook groups too Yeah. Because you don't know who's
Speaker:lurking in there, and a lot of times, abusers go in those groups too, and
Speaker:they mine for information. Mhmm. Yeah. We have group is safe,
Speaker:and you keep it like, this not recorded and it's a, and I just think
Speaker:that's such a good thing to know for someone. They're like, oh, I don't
Speaker:have to worry about this getting back into my case.
Speaker:Yeah. So we have a weekly legal abuse support group, and you have
Speaker:to, like, plug your email and you have to register, and we screen all of
Speaker:our clients. We check for stalkers. But,
Speaker:yeah, we don't record them. People have their cameras off
Speaker:if they want. They put their cameras on. We know everybody. And at the end
Speaker:of the meeting, it's like, if you wanna pull the links from the chat, that's
Speaker:it, and goodbye. We're done. Yeah. So good. Yeah.
Speaker:Because I think people need to know that there's, you know, there's support out there
Speaker:in that process. Like, been there, got out. And
Speaker:that's what you're you're really focused on that kinda
Speaker:transition a, how to set yourself up for success when
Speaker:you're choosing to leave, how to handle the navigate like,
Speaker:navigate the legal system. It's so good what you do. A Yeah.
Speaker:We always say it requires a team, though, because these are the really
Speaker:tricky, difficult cases. Yeah. Well Thank you for
Speaker:being someone that, you know, can certainly be a part of that team Become Mhmm.
Speaker:Our the parents in our situation, people in general need to learn how
Speaker:to self regulate and, you know, have that emotional
Speaker:vocabulary and bring it out into the world. Yes.
Speaker:Yes. So anything that anyone learns on this podcast is gonna be
Speaker:good for yes. And managing those things,
Speaker:but specifically, really
Speaker:dealing with that fear, right, and that rejection and that
Speaker:pain. So if anyone's dealing with that, reach out to Lisa, reach out to me,
Speaker:and we'll help you for sure. Yeah. Well, thank you so
Speaker:much. I love this. Yeah. My pleasure. Yeah.
Speaker:Okay. Have a good one. Alright. You too.