We all know that parenting is enough of a challenge on its own, but what about when you’re coparenting with an abusive ex, someone who may be acting more for themselves than the best interest of your kid?

My guest, Lisa Johnson, is a certified domestic violence advocate and the cofounder of a divorce coaching program called Been There Got Out. We’re talking all about:

• The goodness and peace that are on the other side of the pain and struggle.
• What to look out for when it comes to coercive control, loyalty conflict and reacting to your ex.
• Ways to support your kid and help them navigate difficult situations.
• How to get the support you need to care for yourself and your child.

If coparenting with an ex has been a struggle for you, or if you are making a decision to leave a relationship, this real-talk conversation will give you the information you need to make the best choices for you and your child and support them through it all. 

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My guest, Lisa Johnson, is a certified domestic violence advocate and the cofounder of a divorce coaching program called Been There Got Out. She works alongside her co-founder and romantic partner, Chris, to help people who are dealing with high-conflict separation and divorce, custody battles, and coparenting hell so that they can have the best outcome in family court and beyond.

Lisa’s Story

Of course, there is much more to Lisa’s story than what we could cover in this conversation, but there are some elements she experienced that she has seen to be pretty common with her clients, as well. 

When Lisa was making the decision to leave her previous marriage of 18 years, her now-ex-husband made her feel like if she left, then she would be responsible for breaking up their family, which included two kids. She would be to blame for destroying their kids’ lives. 

So she did everything she could to stay and keep the family together. Ultimately, she realized that one person can’t make both people better. They wanted two different things, and it just wasn’t working. 

Like so many others, Lisa knew she had to leave her marriage for herself. She didn’t know what would happen with the kids. She would figure that out later. But for her to survive, she had to go. 

She describes the feeling of carrying a ball of pain inside of her trying to keep it all together. And when she admitted that it wasn’t working, and her ex left, there was such a sense of relief. A weight had been lifted. 

She didn’t know what would happen next, but she knew she couldn’t try to control it, and letting go was so freeing. Now, she’s on the other side, has found the love of her life and created her business to help others through those same kinds of struggles. 

Coparenting With an Abusive Ex

Lisa’s clients are often dealing with ex-spouses who are not handling things with maturity and who are trying to take back control. There are a lot of hurt feelings and, often, a history of abuse. 

In many of these cases, Lisa sees instances of coercive control, which means that some freedom has been taken away from one person in the relationship. It might look like financial abuse, where one person doesn’t have any control over the family’s money. It can also show up as social isolation or other types of verbal, psychological or sexual abuse. 

Although they’re now in different living spaces, the parenting relationship is not over. Lisa says that the three main areas where conflict and abuse come up after a divorce are money, kids and court. 

Legal abuse related to money and court conflicts go hand-in-hand. It’s all about winning and losing. The abusive partner wants to take everything - kids, money, time and control. Conflict around the kids lasts the longest and is the most painful. 

In these situations, the child is often put into something called loyalty conflict, usually by the abusive parent. Kids are expected to choose sides and be loyal to one parent over the other. They’re then rewarded for rejecting the parent who's often the target of the abuse, often the safe, healthy, protective parent. The child may also be punished for showing affection or love to that parent.

This often starts even before the relationship ends. One parent might try to undermine the other or grill the child on everything that happened while they were at the other parent’s house. One of the most common things that they do is send poisonous messages about the other parent to the child, wanting them to believe that that other parent is unsafe, unloving or unavailable (even though the opposite is usually true). 

This feels so scary and dangerous, because sometimes your kid will absorb these messages. They’ll be angry and confused and lash out at you. You feel triggered the same way you are by your ex, because you see that same behavior coming through your child. 

We talk about this behavior as “poisoning the well”. As the parent, your challenge is to take the perspective that, no matter what, your well cannot be poisoned. You built it right. You are replenishing that well with clear, clean water, because you have nurtured a strong, connected relationship with your child. You’ll continue to tell them how much you love them and how safe they are with you, and that is enough. 

Taking Care of Yourself

When someone leaves an abusive situation, there is often a realization of, “Wow. I can start making decisions for myself.” Sometimes, they don’t even realize it’s been so long since they had that ability.

In this next stage, you’re working to find your center and your voice again. 

Learn to self-regulate. As a parent, you have to be able to separate your fear and pain so that you can be a loving, compassionate presence. When you are calm, you can help your child process their own emotions. 

It’s the same principle that makes Calm the first step in the Calm Mama Process. You cannot help your kids when you’re in pain. You have to heal and calm yourself before you can fully show up for your kid. 

Get support. Lisa’s son is an adult now, but when asked what helped him get through his parents’ divorce, he says, “my mom kept it together.” She had a wonderful support system including her attorney, her father, good friends and an Al Anon group. 

Focus on how you can set yourself up for success in this transition. Make a plan for how you will get the support you need to make the choice to leave, navigate the legal system and take excellent care of you and your kid. Open up to family or close friends that you trust, find a local group or work with a therapist or coach to get the support you need.

Be careful with your responses. Sometimes, when kids come home from the other parent’s house, they’re angry or they say things that trigger you. It’s human nature to want to defend ourselves and set the record straight, but Lisa says that’s actually a big mistake. 

An abusive ex might say something to your kid, knowing that they’ll repeat it to you. They’re almost baiting you to get a reaction that they can use against you. 

Plus, by trying to argue what they were told or correct the record, you’re basically doing the same behavior as the abusive person. You’re telling your child what to think. Give them space to figure it out on their own. Actions speak louder than words. 

Taking Care of Your Kids

Lisa says one of the biggest questions that comes up with her clients is - How are my kids going to be okay? 

In a divorce, the kids are often the ones whose lives change the most. 

When you have experienced an abusive relationship, it’s easy to think, “My kids are screwed.” You might feel worried about the patterns repeating themselves. 

We’re here to tell you that being a neutral, loving soundboard for your kid, emotionally coaching them, and healing on your own will heal your child.

Lisa has seen kids come out of these situations with extraordinary social and emotional intelligence. They learn at a younger age how to establish boundaries and develop resilience when dealing with difficult people in the world. 

Here are some ways to support your child. 

Allow your child to have their own experience. You may be experiencing a lot of pain, guilt or fear because of what’s going on in the relationship. But, often, our kids just want to live their lives. They might not be feeling everything that you are. They want to be with their friends, do their sports and activities, just be kids. And it’s good for them to do that. 

Teach critical thinking skills. This is an important part of parenting, especially in these situations, because when kids can think for themselves, they don’t just have to take in what one person says and accept it as truth. They can ask questions like, “Who is saying this?” “Why are they saying it?” “Could it be true?” “Is there another way to look at this?”

You can practice these skills with your child outside of emotional moments, like when you’re reading a book together or watching a movie. Ask them what they thought of a situation in the story and talk about it. How would they have dealt with that situation? This way, you’re showing respect for their opinion and encouraging them to exercise the critical thinking muscle.

Be intentional with conversation. Especially when raising teens, make time for curiosity and casual conversations. We spend so much time talking about homework and cleaning their room and taking out the trash, not to mention any conversations about the other parent, that there isn’t time and bandwidth left for actually relating and connecting with each other. Create space for your relationship with your child to blossom. 

Help your kid build self-awareness and identity. Use the Connection Tool to help them check in with how they’re feeling. Help them build and trust their own inner voice and guidance. Let them know that they get to choose how they want to think and feel about the people and situations in their lives. Support them in doing their own thinking and feeling. Give them space to figure it out.

If you are reading this and know that you are in a toxic relationship. If you’re terrified of leaving because you’re worried about your kid. I want you to know that you can figure it out. It’s going to be okay. 

There is support out there for you to navigate this process. Reach out to Lisa or someone else that you trust. You are not alone.

In the long-term, love, generosity and compassion will win when it comes to your child. Healing and caring for yourself will heal them and teach them the emotional literacy skills that are so important. 

Connect with Lisa:

• For ALL the information about Been There Got Out (including the weekly Legal Abuse Support Group), visit Lisa and Chris’s website at https://beentheregotout.com/ 
• Follow along on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube and X
• Listen to Been There Got Out on Apple Podcasts (or wherever you do podcasts) 
• Get the book: Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High Conflict Divorce, And How To Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances by Lisa Johnson and Chris Barry 

Previous Episodes Mentioned:

• Episode 40: Codependency in Parenting
• Episode 84: Better Conversations With Teens & Tweens

Free Resources:

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• Follow me on Instagram @darlynnchildress for daily tips 
• Rate and review the podcast on Itunes

Alright. Welcome back to Become a calm mama. I'm your host. I'm Darlynn

Childress. And today, we're going to talk about

having a difficult ex. And I've invited Lisa

Johnson to speak about this. And she's the cofounder

of Been There, Got Out, which is a high calm, a,

divorce coaching program. And she's also a certified domestic

violence advocate. So Lisa will introduce herself. But before we even get into it, I

was a to tell the audience. A couple weeks ago, I had on Maggie Reyes,

and she talked a lot about how to be in a

relationship, like how to handle, being in a

marriage essentially. And I think it's really great to talk about,

like, how do marriages end a how do you handle it a, like, what are

the strategies? And so that's why I'm really excited to have Lisa here. So welcome,

Lisa. Thank you. Yeah. Please tell us a little bit about your work

and, like, your story Become I think it's so powerful, and then we'll get

into some of the, like, strategies and topics. Okay. Yeah. So

with been there, a out, I would say I'm the female half, and my partner,

Chris, who was also my romantic partner for 9 years, is the male half.

And we help people dealing with really difficult

relationships, getting out of them at least,

high conflict separations and divorce, custody battles, and coparenting

hell a so that they can have the best outcome in

family court and beyond. And so ours are

the cases where, that go on for years a, you

know, the anger doesn't sub

And I can feel really alone and and isolating.

Yeah. And, we have a we we do a

on 1 coaching. Well, 2 on a Become it's Chris and I a. And we

also have a weekly legal abuse support group where we talk about

strategies in dealing with this going through and out of the

court system. But also, the big issue seems to be, which was my

hugest issue, how are my kids a to be okay? How are my kids going

to be okay with a parent like that? And how do I co parent with

someone who doesn't seem to really care about what's

best for the kids or even about the kids at all sometimes.

Right. They're just in their own need and their own, like, need for power or

winning or whatever it is or, like, the money or they

just want what they want, and it's not the kid yeah. Control.

Right? The kids are either used as pawns, or if they've decided they're not

necessary, maybe they don't even considered part of the

process. Yeah. And that the parent who's connected and

is, you know, staying in the parenting

experience is committed to the children probably feels a lot of tension

around that. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So I was

yeah. I I was married for almost 18 years, and I was with my ex

for 20. And we have 2 kids, and I

did not understand I didn't even know what domestic abuse

or domestic violence is. And I'm like you said, I think I'm a state certified

domestic violence advocate. And many people who are in these

relationships don't even realize what's going on. So it was

only toward the end when it started getting more painful to stay

than to go that I ever considered getting out because

we didn't fight often. You know, I later found out

he had a completely double life, and that was part of why it was time

to go. But we had these 2 kids, a,

my ex a of how he kept me in the relationship for longer

was making it sound like if I left

that relationship, then I would be responsible for breaking

up an intact family and that I would be blamed

for destroying these kids' lives, and I internalize that. And

so did everything that could possibly have been done to

try to keep it together. And in those last couple of years,

it was physically painful to stay. I mean, it was

so a, and anyone listening who is

going through this now, it doesn't stay this way. But I know I I remember

feeling like a physical ball of pain in my stomach

every single day and feeling like, oh my gosh. If this could if I

could just get rid of this. But at the same time, wishing

that I'd do anything to keep it together, and it was only after

finally taking the leap and saying, it's not

working. Like, one person can't make both

people better that things started getting

improving, but, it was a process. And now I'm

speaking on the other side of it, and I can say that

I've never been happier in my life. I've found the love of my life.

I my kids are fine. You know, I've got this amazing

career. People say I've turned my mess into my message. A

so, I love being able to talk to people who are going through it and

being able to offer a lot of comfort as well as strategic

a advice to get them through it and get them to the other side as

well. Wow. What strength it took to make

that a, like, that ball of pain as you describe, like, in

your stomach, and it's just this terrible tightness. It's just probably

fear and and anxiety and just this

awful, like, a, and then you make

that a. It sounds like over time that a, and you

feel it's replaced with a do you think? Yeah. Well, I mean, A

you're you're the feelings queen. You're the a

translator. I was thinking a the word trepidation,

but the the the immediate feeling you know, I remember

the conversation after 2 years of

just, like, confusion and hope

and doubt and every just everything,

disappointment. But I remember that particular conversation when

something just clicked, and I said, you know what? To my ex, like,

I think I'm realizing that you and I just want completely different

things. Like, I'm doing everything to keep our family together,

and you just wanna be happy and do what you wanna do, and it's just

not gonna work. So tomorrow, I'm ready. I'm gonna be

okay. I don't know what's gonna happen with the kids, but that's it.

And with that decision, it was, like,

such relief of just letting go already. Like, I I can't

keep controlling. Like, I give a, and then that it felt like so

freeing. A then, of course, you know, it's a roller coaster as we know.

Yes. That's what we're gonna talk about. And it's really hard. Yeah. Really hard. But

but just that relief. And literally, as soon as

he went out, the air in the house felt

different. It felt like this weight had lifted. The kids

sensed it. We have a of people that we've talked to

who've experienced that similar feeling of, like, a physical

lifting after that person's presence

is is away. I mean, of course, you know, with a Chris and I deal

with is a lot of post separation a, but, wow, just

just your physical living space really does change. Yeah.

It's so cool because you said, I get yeah. I give a.

And I kept thinking you give up the pain, you give up the struggle, you

give up the control, and it's replaced by peace

and relief and, like, what are you giving into? You

know? Where are you going? I just I I think we think, okay. I'm

I'm a, but you what you're offering is that there's another side. Like,

you release that pain and that trepidation, and you

take the leap, and there is so much goodness on the other side and

pain for sure. Right. It's not it's not the absence of

it, but then I would imagine the hope of a future

starts to take place. Right? Well, first, it was just

relief. I I didn't even know what I A you're offering hope for

all of us because you're like Right. You're like, yeah. Okay. I'm I'm real

you know, felt that relief, and then you're saying, and it just got

better and better. Well, also another since, you know, I love talking

about emotions now. Like, thinking about it, like, it was a

this enormous sense of freedom. A many of our clients are

in relationships that involve something called coercive control,

which is a crime of liberty Become they their freedom has been taken away in

so many different methods, like the financial

abuse where they they haven't had control of the money. They don't understand that. There's

been verbal or psychological or sexual or, you know,

legal there's isolation, stalking, and to to let

it go and to be like, wow. I can start making decisions

for myself when it's been so long since I've

realized that I haven't been making decisions. It's really powerful.

Mhmm. Yeah. Finding your own voice after a really long

time. Right. Finding your center. Yeah. Like,

really kinda tuning in quite a bit. And I think it's

so interesting you said, you know, I'm gonna be okay. I don't know about the

kids. Like, at at a certain point, you were like, I

am going to go take care of myself, and Yeah. We're gonna figure out

the rest. Not not in any form of abandonment. Just like in

order to survive, I have to go, and

I will figure out what to do with my kids later. And

in the process that I teach for my listeners, they know it's like calm comes

before connect, and we do have to

we cannot offer what we don't have. We cannot help our kids

when we're in pain, and, you know, of

course, we wanna move through that pain so we can help our a, and

sometimes it takes time and whatever. That's fine. But,

yes, we have to sometimes choose ourselves, and that can feel so wrong as a

mom, especially. Well, one thing too was the

guilt. Like, at some point, you know, when you're dealing with someone

who's got, I'll just say issues,

You know, you can get consumed by them. And I was spending

sometimes 6 hours a day trying to talk to my

husband. We go down to the basement, and it was like I kept trying to

convince him that he was delusional and in denial and,

like, what would happen and what this really meant. And I was getting

exhausted. And the whole time, it was like, I'm not paying attention to these kids.

Like, I didn't even know what was going on, but I was just, like,

so a. Consumed. Yeah. Yeah. Consumed too.

And I I just felt like I have to take care of these kids. Like,

I cannot go on like this. I mean, that 6 hours a day didn't

last for that a, but there were moments and I looking back, it's like I

was I was doing completely the wrong thing. But you kinda have

to know. Yourself. Yeah. Yeah. That's why we have guides that come up,

alongside of us. That's why we're coaches. That's why we have mentors because

there's things we don't know how to do. I always say that in parenting. It's,

like, why would you know how to set a limit or how to teach a

kid to potty train? Like, I don't know. There's no reason that you would know

that a That's the same thing with with our clients who are like, I,

you know, I didn't understand as I I was going through the a. I'm like,

how would you know who's done this before? Right. Why would you

anticipate that you'd ever have to become an expert on you know, like you said,

you had helped a law be passed in Connecticut around coercive

control and and identifying that as part

of the domestic violence acts. And it's like you didn't be

set out to become an expert on coercive control. I know. I a

say I never was like a little girl dreaming. Oh, I wanna be a high

conflict divorce strategist when I get older. No.

Right. Yeah. I do think, you

know, sometimes I've noticed when someone gets divorced, like, if they're in a social group

and they're saying, oh, we're getting divorced, and people go, oh, I'm so sorry. And

I think the person who made that decision is only

in joy and relief. Like, it a dis it's like the 2 years prior

is when they really maybe needed the I'm so sorry you're going through

this hard a. But once the decision's made, you're

like, oh, no. No. It's better now. I know. The hope.

Yeah. That's exactly it. I mean, for 2 years, I only

told 3 friends, and

and they did the best they could, but I wasn't getting good advice from them

because they also didn't quite understand. But I didn't wanna tell anybody in my

family because I kept thinking if people find out what's going on, they're gonna

hate him forever. And I kept trying to reconcile. So I just was like, I'm

gonna have to keep this hidden and until I'm, like, really, really sure.

And so it is like there's all this secrecy and shame

around what's happening. And it and, yeah, by the time I said I'm getting

divorced, people a like, oh, and I'm like, no. I am, like, really

glad. And people still will say to me, I'm so sorry

you've been through all this, like, a, you know, a 100 court appearances and

all this money. I'm like, no. I'm I'm really glad that this I mean,

I wouldn't wish it on someone, but if that hadn't happened,

then I wouldn't have this amazing life. Yeah.

Right. It's so true. Like, we have to go through these hard

things sometimes in order to get the next thing.

And yep. It's bombing. That's true of, like, children.

It's like how do they become resilient? How do they grow up? How do they

learn things? It's like through obstacles. It's through overcoming obstacles. It's from

learning how to handle those things, and so it's like

you're a prime example of that. You're like, I went through something

really, really hard, and now I'm who I am because of it.

Yeah. I mean and that's something, like, I I mentioned earlier, like, I

was so worried about my kids not

being okay. Mhmm. And,

and and they are okay, but it took a lot of work. But my

son was on a podcast. He's a young adult. Now he's 4, so he can

you know, he's been years that he can talk freely. But he was

asked, like, what what helped you as a Childress? Or he

was a teenager at the time. What helped you get through it,

well? And he said, my mom kept it a.

And he didn't. And I didn't know he was going to say that, but I

didn't realize I was getting support through

that time period. And my my partner, Chris, you know, I met

shortly after finally getting my ex. I felt like my marriage had been over for

more than 2 years. And we met, and we didn't realize that we were both

going through something similar. And then my my dad helped me with a

lot. I did have some good friends. I had my a wonderful

divorce attorney. I joined Al Anon, which I didn't

understand what it I thought I was dealing with one thing, but it was

actually helping with, like, a few things. Yeah. We've talked about,

Al Anon is for codependency, and I've talked about it on the a, codependency a

parenting. I did an episode on that, how it shows up

when we are in a codependent relationship with our kids, like, even when they're

little. So, yeah, if anyone's curious, they can go back in the

archive and look for that. A, yeah, So Al Anon, if you're dealing with anybody,

any relationship struggle where you're not sure where you begin and they end

Mhmm. That's a good Al Anon is a great per place for that,

for sure. My gosh. Al Anon was so helpful in teaching me

emotional detachment. Mhmm. I I just I was

consumed, like we said, with what was going on. And I I

remember going to a meeting in the front a. All these people were, like, so

happy, and I thought, this is crazy. I'm crying and being like, I don't know

what to tell my kids about, you know, this this divorce and everything,

and they just gave me excellent advice. And over just

a couple months, I got so much better. So

that's so good. So this I wanted to talk about, like, some strategies that

you learned along the way dealing with your ex Become it's

like getting to the point where you end the relationship

is great, like, powerful for you and the and the

but then they're not gone. No. And,

and the people that you work with, right, they're the parents are still around.

They are wanting to have their own set of

rules and boundaries. They're wanting to have

I don't know. You tell me. Like, what are some of the issues that come

up when it's over? Because a we're talking about a x.

So sometimes people separate, still painful, whatever, and they get to the

point, and then they figure it out together. Yeah. Not our not our

people. No. Because then there's a lot of hurt hurt feelings, wanna

get the control back. There's, you know, issues that come

up if if the other person

doesn't handle it maturely. Yeah. Right? Mature

isn't even a word that enters our realm.

Describe it. Let's go for it. So, okay, so we

often think about how, you know, because because

our clients are all dealing with some type of domestic abuse, and it's always

emotional on top of other things. Mhmm. But, that that

other person, like, when the relationship ends and you are in different living

spaces, the the abusive party is

limited in the ways they can still get at you because they don't have that

day to day interaction. So I always say that they're limited to 3

main things. It's money, kids, and the court. And so money in

the court go hand in hand, and that's legal abuse, which Chris and I specialize

in. But kids last the longest and are the most painful.

And so often when a couple separates

and there's children involved, the kids will be put into

something called a loyalty conflict by a of the usually the

abusive parent, because that parent, it's always like everything's

about winning and losing. And so they feel

like the best way to often punish that other parent is to take the

kid. They want to take everything, actually. Like one of the lines that comes up

is like, I'm gonna make you poor, and I'm taking the kids too. Yeah.

So, I'm gonna take all your money and your children and all your time with

the court system. Right. Right. So and it's not it's I

mean, it it like, we have male and female clients, and we see it

go various directions. But legal abuse is definitely

something that's, like, 5050. Like, people lie all the time in court.

We've talked to we interview attorneys constantly, and they're like, no. It's not like

a male female thing in the court system. It's it's a of them do

it. So that's awful. But, back to the kids,

it's the same thing. But both women and men do it.

And so the thing that was that's interesting is it often

starts before the relationship even ends.

So I I think back to my own

relationship with my ex and how he would very

subtly undermine things that I was doing. Like, for example, my

son, he was always, like, a very

strong willed child, and he would test a lot. And so,

you know, I tried it. And on the background of his teacher side, like, discipline

him and not a, but I'd be like, no. You know, you have to stop,

and you need to, like, do whatever, you know, and it make him sit out

or whatever it was I make him do. But his father would

constantly come in and be like, oh, Izzy, you don't have to,

like, you don't have to listen to mom. She's just cranky. You

can you can do something and, like, take it back. So

I'd be like, no. No. No. No. Like, he like, we need to address

what he did, and but my ex husband would be like, no. You can take

it back. And that really made things awful, not just for

me with Izzy not respecting me and acting like that my

parenting didn't matter and that his father was really the one in charge. But it

taught my son that that there were no consequences to his

behavior. And he became harder to parent because he just thought, well,

whatever I do, I could just say I'm sorry. A, like, he I think

he struggled in some ways with empathy because he he learned, like, it doesn't

matter. It's all about, like, me and what I wanna do. A so we've

had to to work on that a bit. You know, it's been a little bit

harder for him because of how he was raised with that. But thinking back, I'm

like, wow. My ex was always undermining me. Mhmm.

You know? And I just didn't know exactly that that's what was that's

what was happening. Yeah. And do you think that's because,

like, the person wants to be the most liked?

Like, they want to have the most favor with the Childress? Like, they wanna

be considered the favorite parent or the the one who's into

control, but also most forgiving and most you know, holds all the

cards. Yeah. It's the loyalty. It's like, are you gonna side with

me, or Are you gonna go with the other parent? And for them, it's

like in normal relationships, you recognize that your

child loves both a, and they need both parents.

But in an abusive situation a abusers like to a child, they're like,

you're either with me or against me. A if you love me and if

you want me to love you, then you need to reject or discard that

other parent Become that's what I did. You need to do as I do. So

that child is rewarded for rejecting

a parent who's often the target of the domestic violence, often the

safe, healthy, protective parent and then punished

for showing affection or love to that parent.

And there's all kinds of things that happen where, like, a child is

grilled, like, after they come back from the other parent's house. What did you do?

What did they do? And, you know, like feeding information. There's all kinds

of ways that that that abusive

parent will affect the Childress. Like, one of the way and this

is actually the topic, I think, I told you of the book that we're working

on now. It's our a book about how to handle when your

toxic ex is trying to brainwash the kids against you in court

and in life. And one of the most common things that they do is they

send poisonous messages about the other parent to

the child, and it's not overtly a. But I call it

the 3 u's. It's like they want the child to believe that that other

parent is unsafe, unloving, or

unavailable. So let's say let's say

that you once you get out of the a, let's say you're

the the target parent, like the, you know, the healthier parent. Mhmm.

You get in a new relationship. Your ex is gonna

say, see how you, the other parent,

you don't care about the Childress. Like like your mama, let's say it's

me. Your mom doesn't care about you because look look how busy she is with

her boyfriend and his family, and she loves his kids more than you.

Yeah. So she doesn't really love you, but I do because, look, I'm

not the one in it in another relationship. However, let's

say my ex, for example, was was in a relationship and I

was single, then it would be like, oh, see. Your your mother's unworthy of love.

Like, she can't find anyone. Yeah. Twisting it either direction to point.

I keep thinking a phrase poison the well. Poison the well? It's

perfect. I interviewed doctor Christopher Willard, who's a Harvard psychologist,

and he used that term as also poisoning the well. Poisoning the

well. Right? And this is one of the things we talked about on your podcast

of, like, if we, as the parent, really go

into that perspective of no matter what, you can't poison this

well Become I built this well. Like, this well, I make this water. I'm

the one this is my spring that this well is replenished with.

And holding that and owning that, like, you're you can try,

but I know that my relationship with my kid is strong.

I can continue to tell my child how much I love them and how safe

they are with me, and that that is enough. It's like like

a Jedi mind trick almost. A like who

who's gonna quote win my child's brain or my child's

heart? And I think love in the long term and

and generosity and compassion wins. Yeah.

But in the middle of it, it can probably feel so

dangerous and so scary and such a rejection.

Yeah. Because often the child will absorb some

of these messages and come back to the target parent

and say, my other parents said this about you. And they're they'll be very

angry and confused and lashing out. And we, as parents,

were like, I got away from my ex, and now my child is

acting just like that person. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yes. There's all

these uncomfortable feelings of, like, I wanna

you know, like, you we get triggered by that same behavior coming through our

child. That's why it's also called abuse by proxy because we're

being abused by them. And it's so complex. Like, sometimes

your ex may be saying things to your child, knowing that the child's

gonna say it to you, almost to bait you to get

the reaction. And then your child reports back what happened,

and then they use it against you in court or whatever to make it like,

see, you're an unfit parent. So it's it's you have to be so careful

about, your response. And that's why it's really important to understand,

first of all, that your children are also victims of domestic

violence, like the fact that they are being subjected to this

and that they're dependent. They can't. I mean, you hopefully got

away. They can't. They're the ones who are stuck

going back and forth. They're the the ones whose lives have changed the most,

really. Right. And they are gonna

grow up, and they're gonna be able to make choices just like you did in

that relationship. Right. Like, it might take

time until they decide this is not a relationship I wanna be in

anymore. And they may in

that process, it's like holding space for the

future of when your child comes online. And

it's like it's like, I'm sure your friends were like, come on, Lisa.

Leave him. He's not good for you. And you're like, no. He's

we were gonna work it out or you have reasons to stay and your

children have reasons to stay. And then at some point, they don't

have reasons to stay. And they're gonna choose where the love is. They're

gonna go where the the relationship is is

actually not conditional. Yeah. It's tricky, though, because

often these abusive people have money. They

use money. Mhmm. I know. Even, like, young

adults and adult children will be like, I can't stand that

one person, but they're paying for my calm, and they're paying for

my college. And, you know, it's very, very difficult. A lot of

times, kids don't realize what's going on until they're in their forties

or they have children or the, you know, their own children. But, I mean,

there's ways to, you know, to find out earlier, but it can take

decades for them to really understand the dynamic. And it's

so hard for the other parent because you're like, how can I wait this

long? But there are things you can do, certainly,

in the meantime. Well and I think holding like, it's

easier for your child to come to

realization if they have a space of

understanding where you can really hold

like like, what you're saying, like, my child is a victim right now.

And what does the victim need? Right? They need agency. They need

compassion. They need the ability to reflect.

And when you are able to separate

your fear and your pain, and that's really a

huge task. I understand that as a parent as

a person. But for your child and benefit of them, it's like,

yep. I know what it's like to be in a relationship with this person. I

know how it feels unsafe to to

question anything they're saying or

to, you know, act disloyal because everything is

conditional. Money is conditional. Love is conditional.

And and holding the

the compassionate lens for your child and also believing in their own

ability to move out of that relationship. Yep.

It whenever that's time, like, you're just there. You're just a loving,

compassionate presence. Right. And easier said than a, of

course. For sure. Right. And that's why it is, like,

one of the best things that you can do for your child is to be

self a. A, that's exactly, Darlynn, what you

do with parents is you help them self a. You help

them stay calm Become we're not calm. We can't co

regulate with our children and help them process their own emotions

and experience the world, in a productive way.

So so we have to be self regulated. And the

thing that comes up a lot, like when kids come from that other home

and they're so angry and they're saying things to us and triggering us, they are

it's human nature to want to defend ourselves

and set the record straight just like we did in the relationship Become we're getting

blamed for things that aren't our fault and it's not fair. But that's

actually a big mistake to do that Become

often the child comes home or even, let's say, a teenager

Teenager hears a certain message. They come back and they start yelling at you and

questioning you, you know, and then so they've been

told something. Clearly, it's upsetting them, and they're

coming to you with it. If you come back by saying that's not true

a then you try to correct the record, which is, again, what we all want

to do, you're basically doing the same

behavior as the abusive person because you're telling them what to

think. Yeah. Kids, teenagers, we all trust

authorities. We think they're telling us the truth. Kids think that their both parents are

telling them the truth. So they don't know who's lying.

But if one parent says this about this happened and then the other

parent says no, you're also

insulting the child's intelligence, especially a teenager who's saying they're

thinking you're not you don't you're making me feel like I don't I can't

decide things for myself. Yeah. Like, you're not giving me any

space. Nobody's listening to what I think or letting

me question anything or feel anything. It's all a, you need to think this. No.

You you need to think that. Mhmm. And my background is as a high school

English teacher, and one of the things that I felt was a really strong

priority for my students was to teach them critical thinking

skills. And I think as parents and as people, we

also really need to help kids in a, but kids

specifically in these situations develop very strong critical

thinking skills. So they don't just take in what one person says, and

it can help them like, it'll help anybody, actually, in our

society process the world. Like, what's this like, who's saying this? Why

are they saying it? What's the message that they want me to think? Why do

they want me to think this? And all of those are questions. Right?

They're like a ended questions of curiosity

and inquiry that you're offering, and that is why

we wanna be as neutral as possible. That's why we wanna be calm

so that we can then guide our child to think about things. Like, could

that be true? Is there another way to view this? What do you

think? Exactly. The what do you think? Why do you think that way? Why

would you how did you come to that perspective? And to

do it not just in these really emotional moments,

but as as an English teacher, I like I was constantly like

writing lesson plans because when I'd go out and I'd see a movie, I'd be

like, Oh, I can teach this movie. I'd love to hear what my students have

to say about it. You know? So so sometimes, you know, we you could

read a book together with your child. Like, you read the same book and then

talk about it, or you watch a movie together that's a. And

talk about it. Talk about a situation with a friend that you

had when you were a. Kids love a, and

my students did. They love to hear about what you were like when you were

younger and how you dealt with a situation or even as an adult, like

adult friendships. How did I work through something? Because you're also

modeling for them ways that they might be able to handle a.

Or what what would you have done if you were me? You're showing

them respect for their opinion. Mhmm. You're encouraging them to use

that muscle of, like, critical thinking, making them think why they

would do something like that. And, again, not just relating it to their

other Parent. Yeah. You know, because that's not really helpful Become, again, a lot of

kids do feel torn. So we could there's so many other

things to talk about. Yes. And we always talk about talk about raising

teens, especially, it's like curiosity conversations and

casual conversations because we spend so much time just talking

about, like, not necessarily the other parent, but

how much homework do you have, and did you clean your room, and have you

taken out the trash? And it's like it sucks up all the bandwidth for

the actual relational stuff. And if you're hyper a on

your ex and and their relationship with their child,

you're not really allowing your relationship with your child to blossom and

bloom in these other areas outside of your ex. Right? Right. A,

also, sometimes we think, like, that just because what

we're like, the way that what we're experiencing is what our child

is experiencing. So we're like, in our community, we're experiencing so much

pain because of what's going on with the relationship, and it

is so consuming. But our kids often, they just

wanna live their lives. Like, they don't care. They wanna

be kids. They wanna be teens. They wanna be with their friends, go to their

parties, do their sports and other activities. Yeah. No. They're definitely

in their own world. Right. And it's good for them to to to do that.

And so often, sometimes, you try to remember, like, they are not

seeing the world the way you are. And just because it and I know

sometimes my heart would be broken more for my kids because I would

think, oh, they must be feeling this because I I'm watching them. And if

I were in that situation but it's not the same thing. You know? Right.

Right. It's really like, if they wanna talk to us, that's fine. But it's

it's hard it's hard to a being somewhat codependent too. It's hard

for me to set it was really hard for me to separate from what they

might be feeling. You know? Which is why it's so great.

Like, you know, the connection tool that I teach is to ask a question. Like,

I wonder if you're feeling overwhelmed, and they're like, no. This is fun. I'm

free. I like managing all this stuff. Like, I love being busy all a. And

you're like, oh, cool. Okay. Like, I'm just asking,

and then they're like they the whole idea of critical thinking a any of it,

it's just really a. Right? Self awareness, building up our own

identity within. And if you wanna, like, inoculate

your kids against being susceptible

to sort of any domestic violence experience, I would imagine it would be

about their own identity, building that really strong within their own

voice and their own, you know, guidance

and their own, like, antenna and flags and all of that

to build within them. And that comes through

inquiry and questions and awareness. And Yeah. I mean, one

thing that I I had to learn in my forties

was to pause and pay attention to

my gut and to not not when I was in the

midst of, like, a PTSD moment Become there you like, you can't

trust your gut. Your amygdala is all worn out. And, you know, everything

is discombobulated. But to really pause and be like, how do I

feel at this moment? Yeah. And I remember after

my first date with my partner, Chris, I sat in the

calm, and I was like, how do I feel? Like, that's so stupid. I was

like, how do I feel? That was fun. Like, I had fun. That

was a good time. Right. Yes. I would go out with him again. I'm not

attracted to him yet, but, you know, that was I like I had a good

time. And so that's one thing that I do with my

daughter in particular Become she's very, like, I'm not sure. And then she she

often asks other people, you know, what a you think I should do? And I'm

like, okay. Pause. Feel like how do you feel? Like,

what do you think? Like, you've been through something by like

this before. Try to remember a to give her the skills to have

faith in herself Yeah. That to help her talk herself through

it. Right. And that's such a beautiful gift when you're with

your kids, whether, you know, whenever you separate,

like, whether they're little or they're teens or whatever, it's like knowing they're

having an experience outside of your

you, right, with their a, and they would wanna

process that. They we wanna give them the tools to think about it

critically, to evaluate how they felt, just

tapping into all of that emotional literacy, that, deeper

understanding. And what I

I think about with, like, when you have an ex

who really took a lot of your own brain for a long time and then

you've given, like you said, 6 hours for, you know, several weeks where you're

processing with him and, you know, all that. It's like, how much time do you

still wanna spend on this person? Mhmm. And if you

can just let them do their thing a then

just be with your kid and show up in this relationship

with your child that will serve

not just your relationship with your kid, but your kid Become they're growing their own

intuition and their own deeper understanding.

Right. And you can be the guide for that. Yes. And that feels

so good to know that there's somebody who's paying a.

Right. Who's a. Who's listening to them Become a other

side is not listening. No. Because they're just in their own agenda, their

own need to get whatever they their needs met, need for power, need for

control, need for position, whatever that is. And it's

like you have unmet needs as well as a

person, but not using your child to get those

needs met. Yeah. For sure. Right? Learning to,

like, calm and cope within a then getting

you know, connecting with your kids and helping them understand,

like, how do you wanna think and feel about mommy or daddy or whoever? And,

like, they're like, what? I have the ability to decide?

Right? Because that's the other thing. Kids in these situations don't

have agency in a lot of ways. So to allow

them to feel a, to question,

they need that. Yes. And they need to know you're not gonna be like, see,

I told you. Right. I knew I'm telling you, your dad's lying

to you. Like, yeah, you said you can't come from your need to protect

yourself or defend yourself or, you know, it's so

difficult to, like, really that's why the support is so

important that you described, like, having these other

places where you can process all of the

stuff that's happening in your head, really.

A this is fears. This is also really significant that you

do deal with these issues because there's something called intergenerational

trauma. Mhmm. And it's not just stored in our bodies, but it

continues with our children. And we don't want our kids to

do the same thing. So we have to do things differently.

So by taking care of yourself and working through things and developing these

really strong relationships with their kids and helping them develop these

skills, critical thinking skills, they won't make

the same mistakes, hopefully. Yeah. They'll be questioning more.

Right. They're doing their own thinking and feeling. I

I my vision for the world is that we heal the next generation

in advance so that they don't have to,

like, unpack and recover from their childhood in

their late twenties thirties, and then finally go out and live their, like,

full free life in their forties. It's like, what if they could have

that sort of, you know, emotional independence

and and confidence in their twenties. Like, what will

happen if we launch emotionally healthy

kids into the world? And this I

think when you have had an experience with abuse

and being in a domestic violence relationship, it can

feel like, oh, my kids are screwed. Or, you know, like, that's

you know, you're so worried about the patterns repeating and not

feeling like they're they're gonna be okay like you started with.

And just knowing that emotional

coaching, being neutral, being that

loving soundboard for them, and healing on your

own will heal your kids. Yeah. I mean, we we

often say to our clients that even though it's terrible that the

kids are in a situation like this, it's actually this amazing opportunity

because kids and I've seen it with my own kids, and I've seen it in

a lot of other people in the situation with their kids. They learn to

develop extraordinary social and emotional intelligence.

They learn at a younger age how to establish boundaries Become often they have

to learn to do it with the hardest person, a parent. And

so they are far ahead of their peers in

terms of if, you know, if if you teach them properly, like having

this amazing these skills that they can go out into the

world with. So even though it's it's it's

sad that they had to be put in this situation, they really,

are remarkable in terms of the resilience that they have the opportunity

to develop. And, again, like the way they'll be be able to

navigate more effectively with not just a toxic

parent, but the world, because there's going to be a lot of other people,

a lot of difficult people they'll have to deal with, but they will have the

knowledge from having this unfortunate

opportunity. Right. If you can set boundaries and emotionally

coach yourself when you have a toxic parent, you could pretty much

Right. Go anywhere, do anything. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So the skills that you teach your kids sounds like is

like, you know, that's the pathway to amazing things,

amazing opportunities for them. Yeah. So anyone out

there listening who's like, you know, I don't

I wanna leave. I know I'm in a toxic relationship. I'm terrified for my

children. They can bank this episode and just be like,

no. Okay. It's worth it. It's gonna be okay. We can figure it out.

And then if they are in that place and they're like, well, I want Lisa

in my corner, how do they find you? What do they do? How do they

get this kind of support while they're leaving? Oh,

super easy. Just just type been there, got out,

like, anywhere, and you'll find us. We're on Instagram,

YouTube. We have the podcast. Our book is on

Amazon, our first book. I mean, we're at

TikTok a, I think, like x

everywhere. And our website has been there got out.com.

You can just write to us at a, or

Chris is the male half. Chris at been there, got out.com. You could write to

both of us. We always answer. I do all the social media

myself. I answer everything. I mean, who knows if it gets, like,

humongous that I won't have time. But, yeah, there's it's just the 2 of us.

We're real people and, just get in touch. We do, like, a

free discovery call as of this moment, and we

wanna know what's going on. And we wanna figure out if there's ways that we

can help you, but we have extensive experience. Each of us

came out of long term toxic marriage. We both have kids,

and, we managed to find true healthy love in midlife, which is

something we don't really talk about too often with our clients who are dealing

with the muck of the a system. But I think that anyone

who wants to hear, like, wonderful stories of hope and that the kids

can be okay, we're we're very happy to talk to them and help lead

them and their children to the other side. Yeah. I love

that. I was thinking I asked you about, like, privacy. I remember when we

met, and I was like, well, what is it like on your groups? And you

were like, oh, we don't record. People don't get cameras off.

And I think that's nice to hear because when you're working with the court

system, it can be super scary to say anything

and to put yourself out there Become it feels like anything you say can get

back to the courts. And so you have The digital

footprint can. Yes. So media calm, all that

stuff, Facebook groups. Mhmm. That yeah. There's a lot of

there's a lot of danger with Facebook groups too Yeah. Because you don't know who's

lurking in there, and a lot of times, abusers go in those groups too, and

they mine for information. Mhmm. Yeah. We have group is safe,

and you keep it like, this not recorded and it's a, and I just think

that's such a good thing to know for someone. They're like, oh, I don't

have to worry about this getting back into my case.

Yeah. So we have a weekly legal abuse support group, and you have

to, like, plug your email and you have to register, and we screen all of

our clients. We check for stalkers. But,

yeah, we don't record them. People have their cameras off

if they want. They put their cameras on. We know everybody. And at the end

of the meeting, it's like, if you wanna pull the links from the chat, that's

it, and goodbye. We're done. Yeah. So good. Yeah.

Because I think people need to know that there's, you know, there's support out there

in that process. Like, been there, got out. And

that's what you're you're really focused on that kinda

transition a, how to set yourself up for success when

you're choosing to leave, how to handle the navigate like,

navigate the legal system. It's so good what you do. A Yeah.

We always say it requires a team, though, because these are the really

tricky, difficult cases. Yeah. Well Thank you for

being someone that, you know, can certainly be a part of that team Become Mhmm.

Our the parents in our situation, people in general need to learn how

to self regulate and, you know, have that emotional

vocabulary and bring it out into the world. Yes.

Yes. So anything that anyone learns on this podcast is gonna be

good for yes. And managing those things,

but specifically, really

dealing with that fear, right, and that rejection and that

pain. So if anyone's dealing with that, reach out to Lisa, reach out to me,

and we'll help you for sure. Yeah. Well, thank you so

much. I love this. Yeah. My pleasure. Yeah.

Okay. Have a good one. Alright. You too.