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In this episode of the "I Come First" podcast, host Amie Barsky welcomes Emotional IQ expert Joshua Wenner. They dive into the intricacies of emotional regulation, exploring how high amounts of stress impacts our brain and behavior. Joshua shares his journey from grief and trauma work to helping high achievers heal their relationships. The conversation covers codependency, attachment styles, and societal expectations that hinder self-care. 

Joshua offers practical advice on daily regulation practices and the importance of self-care for maintaining healthy relationships. Tune in for insights on transforming your life and love story through emotional awareness and self-prioritization.

What We Explored This Episode

0:00 Daily Emotional Regulation Framework

13:35 Dynamics of Anxious and Avoidant Attachment Styles in Relationships

21:52 Nervous System Responses in Relationships

27:03 Mental Frameworks for Moving from Codependency to Independence

29:04 Societal Expectations and Women's Self-Prioritization

30:05 Men's Self-Care and Nurturing Practices

35:02 Embracing Contraction and Expansion in Personal Growth

36:03 Joshua's Relationship Dynamics and Personal Growth

39:12 Embracing Duality and Grief Work

41:09 Emotional Regulation Through Breathing

Memorable Quotes

"When you're high-stressed, you move into the back of your brain, which shuts off compassion, empathy, and rational thinking. Getting regulated moves you to the front of the brain, where you can consciously choose how to respond."

 "In codependent dynamics, the anxious person leans in with controlling energy, while the avoidant person pulls away. This yo-yo pattern continues until both learn to regulate their nervous systems and address their wounds."

"Life involves a constant contraction and expansion. Embracing both joy and grief, excitement and frustration, allows us to navigate life's ebb and flow more effectively."

Episode Resources

Facing Love Addiction by Pia Mellody - https://www.amazon.com/Facing-Love-Addiction-Giving-Yourself/dp/0062506048

Connect with Joshua

Joshua’s Website - https://joshuawenner.com/ 

Joshua’s LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuawenner/ 

Joshua’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/joshuamichaelwenner/?hl=en

Connect With Amie

Download My Free Breathwork Practice

https://www.amiebarsky.com/free-breathwork

Website: https://amiebarsky.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amie-barsky/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/amiebarskycoaching/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@AmieBarsky?sub_confirmation=1

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Joshua Wenner

0:00 - 0:35

What regulation does for anybody that's new to emotional regulation is essentially when you get activated or when you're high stressed, you move into the back of your brain, which shuts off compassion, empathy, rational thinking. And that's when we move into fight or flight or freeze and appease as a coping or survival mechanism in order to get safe. So when we're able to get regulated, we move to the front of the brain, which is that compassion, empathy, rational thinking. And then you're aware and present to what's happening. And when you're aware and present, it's what's the difference between an emotional impulse or reaction versus consciously choosing how you would like to respond?

Amie Barsky

0:42 - 3:30

Hello, hello, and welcome to the I come first podcast, where putting yourself first is not selfish, it's self care. And self care is essential. Yes, you heard me right. Here we are flipping the script, and I'm going to show you how. I'm your host, Amy Barsky, and I'm so excited you're here. If you're tired of feeling overworked and underappreciated, this is a sanctuary where I'll share my entire journey as a guide to help you break through your patterns, limiting beliefs and societal pressures to be perfect. These juicy weekly conversations with myself and guest experts will be filled with practical tools, advice, inspiration, inspiring stories, and unstoppable energy. So if you're ready, then buckle up. It's time to ignite your inner fire and make I come first your new daily mantra. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the I come first podcast. It is your host Amy Barsky here, and I am feeling so fresh and energized from my european adventure where I got to go to Spain, Italy, Greece, and Portugal. And let me tell you, my cup is overflowing. But enough about me. Let's talk about you and the mind blowing episode we've got in store for you today. Literally. You might want to brace yourself because I've got Joshua Wenner here and he is going to rock your world. He is an emotional IQ master, and he is on a mission to help high achievers just like you heal from old wounds so that you can unlock your full potential. Get ready to transform both your life and your love story in today's episode. Basically, we are ripping the lid off of why your jam packed schedule might be secretly sabotaging your love life. I know Joshua and I are covering all of it today, from codependency to attachment styles to deep rooted societal expectations. Basically, the hidden roadblocks that are in your way from feeling the closeness that you've been craving in your relationships. But don't worry, we're not going to leave you hanging. Joshua shares a game changing daily practice that'll have you putting yourself first faster than you can say self love. This episode is a firework show of aha moments and empowering insights. Your journey to a more vibrant life starts right now. And before we jump into today's episode, here is a quick and exciting announcement. Okay, everyone, I am extremely excited to bring in this incredible human being who's been in my space for a few years now, and his medicine is so potent. Josh Wenner is here with us today. He is a relationship expert and I'm just going to let him get right to it with sharing a little bit about yourself, Joshua. And then we'll dive into some amazing questions.

Joshua Wenner

3:31 - 3:50

Yeah. Thank you so much, Amy. Grateful to be here with you. Yeah, I'd say my focus currently is I help CEO's, entrepreneurs, and high achieving couples to really heal the relationships with themselves so that they can have deeper intimacy and better connections so that they can have happy, healthy relationships. So that's really my sweet spot currently.

Amie Barsky

3:50 - 3:57

I love that. And how did you get into this work? What led you to walk this path of being of such epic service to these people?

Joshua Wenner

3:57 - 4:55

Yeah, so it's. Whereas a lot of people that are doing relationship work come from, like, a long relationship background of healthy relationships, mine's a little bit different. Mine comes more from the grief and the trauma world where I've spent the last 15 years in grief and trauma and helping people navigate. And as people get more comfortable with their grief, that also I do a lot around the nervous system. And so the grief and the nervous system are kind of tied in. And what I found is as people were getting much better at taking ownership and regulating their nervous system, being able to go in and get present and feel the past grief and sadness that was being triggered, what it did is it healed a deeper part of themselves and their connection with their heart. And as they were able to heal the relationship with themselves, it opened up a lot of things in relationships. So it naturally leads into our relationships. And so when we are more at peace with ourself, we actually are more at peace in our relationships. And so that's where boundaries and needs and a lot of other things just kept coming online. So that's where most my background comes from.

Amie Barsky

4:55 - 5:36

That's so beautiful. And it simply makes sense to my mind anyway. It just simply makes sense to really come from that place of understanding ourselves. So deeply understanding sadness and grief and how our nervous system is functioning in the world within on the internal. So because it always affects the external. So because you work with couples specifically, I really wanna navigate for our listener. How do you feel societal expectations or cultural conditioning is it contributes to like women's tendency to prioritize everyone else except themselves, especially when it comes to relationships.

Joshua Wenner

5:37 - 7:15

Yeah, for me it's a, there's like a bunch of nuances with that. So from my lens, it's again, looking at the frame that I look for. I more look at it through the lens of grief. So I'll give probably a different lens. So for me, the cultural influence is more we are in a society where we've been born into codependent relationships. That's how we need survival. We need codependents to survive. And then oftentimes, majority of everybody's family dynamics, there's a lot of coping mechanisms. So oftentimes they say there's big t trauma and little t trauma. Little T is just the ways we didn't get our needs met as children or developmentally we were stunted, which often those show up as the wounding from our child nature. And it stunts the growth of development as a child. And so oftentimes, where did we see that modeled? So that's maybe the larger conversation. Like, oh, I saw my mom be really busy with all the things and was constantly busy and listened to her language of why she was really busy and what she had to do. Or there's a number of factors, but in general, I find that conversation is typically ill break it into masculine feminine. But theres different dynamics at play. Oftentimes if we go back to our parents, our relationship with the father and the relationship with the mother, the mother is often the one thats the nurturer, the self care. So our relationship with our own self care, our relationship with our own spaciousness is oftentimes reflective of our relationship with our mother. And then the doing, the busy, the direction, the focus, getting things done is oftentimes our relationship with the masculine. So, and that question where a woman is, lets say really busy, having to get a lot done and struggles with make time for herself, id say its a combination of both.

Amie Barsky

7:15 - 7:16

Okay.

Joshua Wenner

7:16 - 7:52

Oftentimes shes staying busy because if shes in the space, she probably then goes into looping. And the stories could be, you got to get things done to be good enough. So back to the wounding of am I going to be good enough? Unless everythings done. Do I have to make it perfect? Like if its from the inadequacy wound or the not good enough wound. And if it's from the abandonment wound, I'd say it often is a sense of trying to control things. So it's more like I don't want to sit in the space of uncomfortability so I'm just going to stay really busy. So both sides of that are really we lack being comfortable in the spaciousness with ourselves and that also falls into self care practices.

Amie Barsky

7:52 - 8:14

I love everything you just shared and I would love to ask a personal question, if you're open to it. How was the relationship with your mother growing up from where it was then to where it is now? If you could kind of help us understand, because I have a feeling that may have been an important part of what you do now.

Joshua Wenner

Yeah, so I think I've always had a really good relationship with my mother. I was more of the, you know, my parents are still together 58 years later and so I had the frame of like I had a good childhood and I just didn't go into that until about five years ago when I was doing a lot of work in my relationship house and ive worked with men for a decade and I was going like, all right, ive got my purpose. I know where Im going in life. Im clearing my vision. Its time I really work on the relationship and take ownership for every past relationship that I blame them for anything. Like how do I take full ownership for every past relationship and how do I go home to look at where I thought I had a good childhood and I was taking Gabor mates twelve month compassion and inquiry course. And he says this frame of anybody who says they had a perfect or horrible childhood, they're just different ways of how we interpreted trauma in childhood. And so I got really curious of looking like, okay, what was my childhood lens not through how I see it now of. I didn't see any. Well, I had big t traumas but not related to the family unit. What then? It got a little later on. But what was the little t trauma? Where was the areas if I looked through my childhood lens where I didn't get my needs meth and if I look at it through that lens, I'd say my mother was very loving and very much in my space. So like that smothering like a helicopter mom? Yeah, very much so. Like very ADHD. Go, go, go. Constant nervous system that's constantly going. So much so that I never had any spaciousness and I didn't know boundaries as a child. So even my door being shut I remember as a child. Like, I could hear her coming and would come right in to, I didn't know. I didn't have any spaciousness. So as a child, her, I think anxiousness was her coping mechanism from her childhood. She stayed really busy. And if she didn't have to be with what she was feeling, and that got transferred into my childhood and also the same self care practices. So her self care, she kind of would go last and make sure everybody else was taken care of. And so that also transferred into me. I noticed I have very similar self care practices that she does.

Amie Barsky

And that transference, would you say that shows up in your adult relationships and your adult romantic relationships?

Joshua Wenner

Good question.

Amie Barsky

To some degree, yeah.

Joshua Wenner

I'd say, like, in the progression of work that I've done, I used to be more on the avoidance side, and that very much was in the space where typically in codependent dynamics, we have, like, anxious and avoidant, which is attachment styles. But I see it more in codependency. So oftentimes just to kind of, if anybody's listening and they haven't heard about this before or they haven't heard it tied to codependency, the pattern is, lets say often one child, there was an abandonment, and so nobody was there. So oftentimes the parent where nobody was there, they fantasize about the perfect relationship and get attached to what that perfect relationship is. And so when they meet somebody, theyre going, this is the one. And then that person on the anxious side gets so attached to that person meeting the vision of love that theyre hyper vigilant on every little detail. So when the person doesnt do the right tone or the text message doesnt say theyre looking for the little details, they get anxious. And then they lean in with almost like a controlling, needy, heady energy. And then oftentimes, the avoidant, they either had to be like the savior of the family dynamic or the busy achiever of the dynamic, or they found another way to cope. But people were there, but it was almost intruding. They had somebody similar to, like, how I described where somebody was always in my space. So when somebody would lean in, I would push back and I would go, avoidant. And so in my, the interesting part, though, is in my progression of healing, the avoidant parts cause the avoidant is typically fearful of intimacy, and the anxious is fearful of abandonment. And then deep seated beneath it, we have the opposite fears. So actually, when it gets intimate, we're flipped. And so as I started to open up my heart and work through those different pieces of the avoidant. I actually flipped to the anxious and noticed myself showing up on the anxious side, which I've seen is a common habit quite a bit. The more we open our heart, it's like everything's sensitive and we're much more willing to play the other role. So I've had to work through both dynamics on both sides.

Amie Barsky

Wow. And I can so relate to everything you just said and what you specifically just said around how doing all of your inner work and doing a lot of the. Looking at the lens from a different side of things. And I I was definitely a disorganized attachment style, more leaning towards the anxious and romantic relationships. And then I noticed as I was doing my own inner work that I almost went towards that avoidant. Like, no, I don't need you. You know, like, that energy of, like, I'm fine, I'm good. And, you know, when you swing the pendulum to one side or the other, it's almost always, you know, not the healthiest choices because there's no harmony there. There's a disconnect from the heart because we're so up in our heads, we're so disconnected from the body of, like, what's actually going on here and how do I really feel? And the inner child that's, you know, having other conversations going on inside as well, you know? So this is really juicy and supportive, you know, even for myself. Like, sometimes I feel like when I come on to these beautiful interviews, there's so much insight and self reflection that I get to do after the call. Like, dang, that was so amazing. So thank you. Is there anything else you feel you wanted to add to that specific, specific question before we move on?

Joshua Wenner

I think I just want to talk about the pattern a little bit deeper because it shows up majority of the time in relationships. So the pattern is we have, let's say, this codependent relationship with the anxious and avoidant. And what happens is they initially meet. There's a really strong attraction to that connection. And then what happens is as the anxious gets a little anxious and it can go either way, like, the avoidant can pull back first and then. But let's just use the example of the anxious. They notice something changes in the, say, the avoidance behavior, and they start to lean in a little bit more. The avoidant pulls out, and initially the anxious makes up excuses for why they're pulling away. So they keep leaning in, but they're making up excuses for what's happening. Meanwhile, they're leaning in more and more till finally they wake up and go, okay, I have to accept they're not here. And then they finally start to pull away and move out of the dynamic. And then when they do, because the deeper seated thing of the avoidant is actually abandonment as well, then they pull back in and they usually use more seduction is like a source of seduction or playfulness to actually enroll them back into the connection. And that's how they end up yo yoing these dynamics over and over and over again. So the, if somebody's listening, most people are probably going, oh, me too. I've either done it now or in a previous relationship.

Amie Barsky

I'm curious, what are some of those? When you mentioned the anxious person starts to notice, what are they noticing?

Joshua Wenner

I find it's like really subtle. It's a shift in energy. Because again, we're hyper attuned to not feeling our own abandonment, not feeling our own wounding. So instead, the nervous system gets activated on slight little changes. So we've become hyper vigilant on noticing the subtle details to keep us safe from being abandoned. So unconsciously we're looking at all the details. So let's say a text message used to have a heart emoji and then it has a thumbs up. Or let's say in the beginning of the connection when there is this debonding, there's a slight change in behavior from a text message change to the text message doesn't ask a specific way to the tonality changes, to the goodbye changes. So it's like we've attuned to these certain pieces because again, on the anxious side, we've romanticized love. So we're not actually, both people are not seeing the person. We're seeing the vision of the person we've made in our mind. And so when they don't match the vision that we've romanticized as love, then it's like, oh, this isn't matching the vision which is triggering the abandonment. So I want to control that. And that energy is a disregulated as an example. I see it in me when I need to start asking questions. So my process around it is I get some. I find there's two lenses. Some people get a little bit, I'd say it's a more passive approach to ask questions. Whereas the more active approach is moving into assumptions that they're doing XYZ.

Amie Barsky

Now, does that go along with the justifications you were talking about? They justify the behavior.

Joshua Wenner

What's happened is in my like, if you're not aware of it in your mind, you're already triggered because you've made an assumption that they're pulling away. They're doing something. Like, your mind is coming up with scenarios from past trauma or past experiences or fears of what they're doing. And so oftentimes, that nervous system response of the dysregulation, either we're believing they did it. Like, I remember I had a relationship before I knew about this. That was when I was more avoidant and she was more anxious. She would literally call me, telling me that I was cheating and would be, like, attacking me. And I remember at the time, I was like, I'm sitting in the car. Like, I was so surprised. And because I was avoidant, I was like, I'm not going to talk about this now. I'll talk about it later. I was, like, offended that she would be threatening me with these accusations when I was like, I'm so committed to her, and I'm so. I wouldn't even look the other way. I was so attracted, so connected, so in. So it was so shocking to me. But in that process, I learned to soften a little bit and just answer questions and also learn how to communicate boundaries. Like, hey, totally open to have this conversation with you and answer any questions that you have. And I'm not okay with disrespect. I'm not okay with you saying any of these words to me. Like, lower your tone. I'm not leaving, and I'm gonna answer questions, but you gotta treat me with respect. So I had to learn boundaries, and I had to learn how to open my heart and be very open to questions to help her attune.

Amie Barsky

Yeah. And what I'm hearing is, you also helped her feel safe enough to then ask the questions and building the energetic safety of, like, I'm not going anywhere. Let's be with this. This is obviously clear and alive for you right now. How can we together move through this? And that's a lot of work and well worth it in the end. However, when you're in it and shit's hitting the fan, oh, man, it just feels like too much, too fast, too soon, and everybody just wants to shut down or amplify everything by yelling more. And neither of those generally help in the situation. So, yes, yes to all of this realizations that society, Disney, romantic comedies have all created this. This is what it's supposed to look like, you know, this fantasy world, and that's what it is. It's fantasy. And I think if we were to learn that as a younger age, that it is fantasy, it is make believe, it is pretend it's not reality, then we wouldn't be where we are right now.

Joshua Wenner

Yeah. And a lot of the work to moving through this, and a lot of this comes from Pia melodies work. There's a great book called Facing Love Addiction. She's got another great book called Facing Codependency. And that's where she kind of tied in. She calls them love avoidant. And love addicts is her language, but it's very similar to anxious avoidant. And in her methodology, we're moving away that person as a sense of love, and we're moving them off of that. And we're building a connection with something like God source nature, some sort of a direct connection that we can now have. And then we're able to practice our self care practices, and then we're able to engage with the person. And so it reduces some of that. But I'd say another big piece is learning to feel the wounds, like learning to be with the abandonment wound. Learning. The last relationship I had is where I flipped, and I was more anxious, and it was like. And so I had. It was very confronting. I've done most of my work on the inadequacy or the not good enough wound, and I thought that was my primary. And then when I did this and I flipped, I actually had to do a lot of work on the abandonment wound, and it was very uncomfortable because I hadn't faced that. And I realized through mom, I more had the kind of overbearing where I moved avoidant. But through dad, I more had the feeling of, as a child, his emotional reactivity with me as a child now, it's amazing. But then I didn't get a lot of emotional activity because he was a Vietnam veteran and he was struggling with his own. So in that, I realized I actually have an abandonment wound as well that I had to learn to sit with. And that was really uncomfortable. When you're feeling anxious and you have to be like, it's not them, let me go do the work. To feel, where am I feeling abandoned right now? How do I do the work and how do I. So one key indicator, anybody listening is when you fall into these dynamics. Oftentimes the self care practices go, and oftentimes they're also accompanied by some sort of an addiction. So looping back to where we started, being really busy doing all the tasks can also be an addiction where we're really busy, staying busy with all of our addictions that we don't have to face, like, oh, what does this feel like? Cause this is really scary. So it's a lot of uncomfortable, messy work, but it brings you a lot of peace.

Amie Barsky

It really does. That's the key. You just said it brings you a lot of peace. And so if we give ourselves the permission slip to simply sit with what is be in this discomfort, allow ourselves to be supported in it, whether it's a coach like yourself or a therapist, whatever it might be, whatever that is, to get yourself the support, because I'm a firm believer that one, we're not supposed to do any of this alone. And if we can get a good support system around us, it helps it free up a lot quicker and with a lot more ease and a lot more. I'm gonna say the word fun, because in the community that I'm in, we create a lot of fun around the healing of trauma. And it seems like those two terms of fun and trauma are so opposite ends of the spectrum. However, it can be, in my experience, it can be that way, and it gets to be that way more and more is what I'm desiring to infuse into the world. And so you were mentioning before about the fear of abandonment or judgment or rejection or even conflict. Can we talk about those roles and how that is why women are so reluctant to assert their own needs and desires?

Joshua Wenner

Yeah. So I see it through the lens of the nervous system. And so, and for me, it's not necessarily women. I see it as both men and women, because I work with men for a decade as well. And for me, it's more the nervous system responses is either you typically have more of the freeze appease response, or you have the fight or flight response. And so both of those could still not share their desires and have fears of wanting to share. And for me, if the nervous system is freeze a piece, fight or flight, that's more our coping survival strategies to conflict. And underneath it is the wounding. So the reason we're not sharing is we're afraid to be abandoned and we're afraid to be rejected. So at some core level, we're going to hide down those fears and we're going to put on a mask, and then we're going to be upset that we're not giving. And then we also fantasize. I see this more with women than with men, but I do see with men as well, where we expect that they're going to do the thing. And I've seen this pattern a lot where I'll give you a specific example where, like, she would be upset and she'd be expecting him to see that she's upset. He doesn't see that she's upset. Or he'll say, are you okay? And she says, yes. He receives that as like, okay, things are good, let's move on to the next. And then she's upset because the way she's wanting him to respond to her, she has a fantasy of what that's supposed to look like, to know that she's safe and he's not meeting it, but she's not giving him the blueprint of what that needs to look like. And so athlete, the deepest core level, we're unconsciously creating the partners to replay childhood, to experience the same wounds we felt in childhood, to try to get a different outcome, but we end up replaying the same outcome over and over again. So if our fear is abandonment and let's say a partners, I find we attract the opposite wound. So in the primary relationship. So if somebody's inadequate inadequacy could be I'm not good enough or I'm rejected, right? And then the abandonment, we attract the opposite. So what ends up happening, to give an example, is, let's say a partner goes, let's say, I'll flip it. So from where I usually talk about it, let's say one partner's a little bit distant. He's going through a lot of work. He's a little bit busy. He feels overwhelmed. Instead of communicating and saying, hey, so the abandonment needs to work on, or the one that typically pulls away needs to work on more communication, saying, hey, I'm feeling a little bit overwhelmed. I need a little bit of time and space to not be as connected, to focus over here so I can get this done. Oftentimes that's met and expected that somebody would get that. So they pull a little bit away on the anxious or the fear of abandonment side, they feel that. And then oftentimes they lean in with all the ways that, let's say he's not showing up or what he's not doing or how he's not present, which is the inadequacy wound that he's getting. And then what does he do? He pulls further away, and then she experiences the abandonment. So that's the dynamics that I find when we're not aware of our nervous system. Or it just gets hijacked and it takes over. And the wounds in the nervous system are protecting us and they're running the show. And that's where I see majority of conflicts in relationships are stuck at.

Amie Barsky

Yeah, and it sounds like a key element is awareness. When you have the awareness, then you can make a different choice. But if you don't have the awareness, then you don't know any difference.

Joshua Wenner

Correct. And the awareness from my lens looks at doing daily regulation. Oftentimes, regulation is taught when we're dysregulated. And most people that teach it how to get back. The framework that I teach is its every day, twice a day, minimum. And so what regulation does for anybody thats new to motion regulation is essentially when you get activated or when youre high stressed, you move into the back of your brain, which shuts off compassion, empathy, rational thinking. And thats when we move into fight or flight or freeze and appease as a coping or survival mechanism in order to get safe. So when were able to get regulated, we move to the front of the brain, which is that compassion, empathy, rational thinking. And then youre aware and present to whats happening. And when youre aware and present its, whats the difference between an emotional impulse or reaction versus consciously choosing how you would like to respond. And so if youre regulating daily, twice a day, youre regulating to start the day, so youre have capacity to deal with your day. And then at the end of the day, youre regulating so you can have capacity to be in the relationship and be connected. And then on top of it, whenever you're getting dysregulated, you're also doing regulation. So for me, it's such a foundational tool that it's every day. And I find when you do it, you're a lot more present to say, oh, wait, what's going on with me? And that's the third component.

Amie Barsky

I love that. And I also want to presence co regulating with each other in partnership. You know, it's when you notice that your partner is just spinning. Like, whoever's the most resource, whoever's the most regulated, whoever is the most, can you support the person who is feeling all the things and everything's coming up and, you know, it's learning each other's nervous systems, it's learning each other's wounds and really sharing so openly, which requires safety so openly so that you can be a support system for each other in a healthy way, not in a codependent way, but in a, what do they call that? Intercodependence. That's the word. Interdependency. So let's dive in for a second. So how does the fear we talked about, the fear of abandonment and rejection and judgment of, if I put myself first, this might happen. How does it affect women's vibrancy, would you say? In the dynamics of relationships.

Joshua Wenner

Yeah, I'd say so if we go back to the codependency, so oftentimes codependency, the motto is I'm doing this for you and then expecting you to do something for me. So we're giving to get. And in order to move out of that, first we have to move in independence, which is what we're talking about, where. Oh, I'm scared to take time for myself. Taking time for yourself is where you create independence. And it's usually the hardest step because in that phase we have to deconstruct our identity, deconstruct our stories, deconstruct our beliefs, face the wounds. It's a really difficult period to unravel that. But in doing so, what ends up happening is then we start to find safety and a deeper connection with something greater than us. We start to do practices to take full ownership, complete ownership for everything in the relationship and how we're a part of co creating all the dynamics which can be very confronting. And then in it, we have to then go in and sit with and feel and move some of that past grief and trauma that's been stuck in the body, that's getting triggered from this. And when we do, we start to create a lot of spaciousness. When we create that spaciousness in the body, in the independence, initially it's heavy because there's a lot of past grief and trauma. So I find initially it is a little bit harder to feel the joy unless you're in like a workshop type dynamic or a creative type of dynamic, but solo, it's a little harder. And it can feel like, when is this going to stop? And then when I find as you're moving it through, there reaches a space where you've cleared out some space, and then you go to that space and you actually find joy or you find aliveness or you feel like dancing or you feel like moving. And I find it's a little different for men versus women. Women typically like a little bit more of the dance and the movement and the sensuality or the creativity with their bodies. And in that spaciousness, that's when the radiance starts to come alive again. Because what's happened is were really connecting with their hearts. So if we look at it like that, all the past grief and trauma that we built up is basically created a sense of armor thats blocking and keeping us in the head and were afraid to go in the heart. And in order to access your radiance, your joy, your aliveness, you need to access the heart. So its the pathway down the center column of this past grief and trauma. And as we excavate it out and free up more spaciousness, you get more energy, you get more aliveness, and then you get more spaciousness. And then from that space, now you're in the radiance, but you're not in the radiance to get. You're in the radiance because it feels good.

Amie Barsky

Self radiated radiance.

Joshua Wenner

Yeah. And that's from the masculine lens. That's very attractive. It feels very different as a texture. When a woman is doing something to get you, like, when you can see it, at first, you're just hijacked. Right. But as you do more work, you can now, like, I can see very different energetics on social media than I used to see where I would just get hijacked by a woman showing, like, let's say, her sensuality or sexuality to get attention versus a woman just doing it because she's expressing herself and she wants to express herself for her very, very different textures. They feel very different, and so that's magnetic.

Amie Barsky

I am curious because we spoke about a little bit, how women might express herself through dance or movement or something artistic from a man's perspective. How do you guys connect to your radiance, your vibrancy?

Joshua Wenner

Yeah, it's very different. I find. Well, and I also want to preface, I find in general, if I had to generalize, women are often trying to get safety insecurity that they're wanting to get from the man, and men are trying to get nurture from the woman. And so it's finding ways to nurture ourselves. So the self care practices are like, for me, can I take care of my self care? Can I enjoy making meals? Can I enjoy meditation, quietness, spaciousness? Like, I also heard a really good phrase recently, like, a woman goes through a monthly cycle where it's like. And I find the more attuned a woman is, it's almost like they're more loving and gentle and, like, create spaciousness to be in their moon cycle and actually allow the body to go through it and go internal and be with that process, whereas men, we don't have that. So creating time and space to be in the nothingness is a very similar space for men. So actively carving out time where you're not in a dopamine fit, you're not distracted or giving or trying to give to the world, but where are you receiving from the world, receiving that nurture back? And so it can look like massage. It could look like stretching, it could also look like play. Like men spending time with other men, we get. I read a recent study recently where in children, when women are nurturing with their babies, they both experience oxytocin. But when men are playing, that's when they both experience oxytocin. And so a woman can play with the child, but she doesn't get oxytocin from it. And so with men are around other men finding ways to play, that's another really deeply vitalizing source of energy and aliveness, because it brings in the oxytocin and it can be very nurturing. So, and for any of the men, if there is any men listening or partners listening to this, it's. I'm a big advocate of, like, a feminine cleanse. And if you're in partnership, it's a little harder to do a feminine cleanse, where you basically stop looking for all the ways. But I would say, outside of your partnership or your relationship, if you can't do a full feminine cleanse, how can you do it outside of that? And what happens is you start to really learn that you're so driven by some sort of nurture, which often shows up as the feminine in a woman's form. And so when you start to take that away, you start to find the other areas that how am I able to get nurture without a woman? And so that could look like self care. It could look like, with me, with my cats, it could look like feeling the wind on my back. It could look like what's all the ways that nature shows up to me in very loving, nurturing ways. Wow.

Amie Barsky

I love, thank you for sharing that from a male lens of what you guys do to really nurture yourselves. How can a woman reframe self care and prioritize from a positive lens so that it doesn't feel like it's a selfish act? Because I think a lot of women think if I step away from partnership or I don't spend time or I don't do the thing, or if I'm not with the kids or I'm not with, you know, co workers or family or whatever it might be, we feel selfish. I'll speak for myself. I always felt, most the time I felt selfish, like, oh, I'm not supposed to do that for myself. So there is this, I'll do it. But it doesn't actually feel like it's. It still feels sticky.

Joshua Wenner

It's a great question. I'd say the first addressing the stickiness. The stickiness is we have these different parts, so there's a part that's been keeping a woman safe by being busy. And that part of her comes online and when she stops to take time for her, that part of her gets internally of like shaming or guilt or whatever it says that she's either going to be, not going to be enough, she's going to be left something there. So first it's getting, it's allowing to get into the body to recognize, I'll say this in two ways. I find there's a consistent contraction and expansion so that life and growth is going to always contract and expand. So at first we're looking for the reasons why we're contracting. But as you continue to do somatic tools to move and to process it, it shifts from looking for the reasons to noticing when the contractions in your space. And so usually what happens is you get a big vision, and then in order to become who you need to become for the vision, theres a contraction. And in the contraction, you go back through your old stories and wounds to get to the wound, to have a little mini death and then to become rebirthed as that next version of you to step into what youre co creating. So on one sense of like, there's always going to be a contraction expansion. And the more comfortable you can get going through that, the easier it is to go, oh, contraction, oh, when I go to the head or I go get busy, those are the ways that I'm avoiding my contraction. And the excitement is in allowing myself to go into the contraction. Guess what? I get to expand and everything gets to feel good again. But it's more an internal journey than looking for the things externally. So that's one side of it. But id say the other side of it is if we talked about earlier, if were moving from a place of codependency and this fear of being independent is what Im hearing. Its like. Okay, in order to step independent, im a little fearful of what that is. Oftentimes that fear is whats repeating the stories of the things that youre not getting, that youre wanting. So if I can step into independence and actually take full ownership for all of it, its going to be very confronting because then it means its not their fault, its on me. And so Im fearful of feeling that level of self accountability. So its easier to stay in the busyness. So then I have a reason to blame somebody else or myself for why its not working. So the stories keep us stuck on those behaviors. But if I could take full ownership after I move through that grief and that pain, what happens is I learn to fill up my own tank. And secondly, I learned to now go, hey, if I'm resourced, I have something to give, and I have a lot more to give. So if you really love to take care of people and those that are in your life, it's very different. If somebody's very rushed and all over the place and scatterbrain, you don't really feel their presence. And that's even what women are deeply wanting from a man often is like, can you just be here with me? If you're running 50,000 tasks and this is just one more task, then everybody's not really getting your full attention, your energy, your vibrancy, all of you, they're getting a little bit of you left with a million other tasks. But if you can fill up your own bucket, take time for yourself. When you do show up, the things that you do show up for, you're more present, you're more attuned, so people are going to feel you. They're going to receive you much deeper. And you're also able to now say, what are my boundaries? I actually have a client right now. Exactly what I think you've been talking about, where she tends to kind of play a little bit small, she shrinks down a little bit, she gets busy. She just kind of says yes to what she's doing. And she's been putting her life on hold, and she's now like, you know what? I have these deep visions of what I want to do for my sovereignty, for my self care practices, for the relationship that I actually want in my life, whether or not he can step into it. Like, I have these visions, and I need to now step into this to become the best version of me. And he's feeling a little.

Amie Barsky

Yeah, she's setting boundaries now because she's recognizing her priorities. It sounds like that's it.

Joshua Wenner

And so the deepest thing is you get to give so much more of yourself to the things that do. And anybody that has a child, you're modeling self care to the child. And so if you can't do it for you, how would you want your child to behave in the world, you know? And would you want your child to be able to take care of their own needs so they have more to give and set boundaries and be able to navigate through the world in the most loving way, or do you want them repeating the same habitual practices that you do?

Amie Barsky

Absolutely. I love this. And, you know, being in this work now for quite over, I guess, over a decade of the reality is this, life does not come without contrast. Right. So can we simply be in the knowing that I can feel joy and grief almost at the same time, almost simultaneously, I can feel utterly excited and frustrated at the same time. Like, these things get to live together. They get to dance together. It's the ebb and flow of life, and we can't stop it. So if we can just get on board with it, as I think it's Esther Hicks says, can you flow with the water and not try and go upstream? You know, it's about saying, oh, okay, this is here for me. And get so curious, so in tune with what's happening in our bodies. You know, you're mentioning earlier about we get so stuck up in the head, and then we're scanning for all the ways in which they didn't show up or they're not doing the thing that I wanted them to do. Tap into the heart space, you know, drop down into the heart, get into the body and start listening, start awakening the body, because the body's. And always communicating. 1000%. It's always online. It's always communicating. And I think that's where the practices that you're talking about come in. You know, whether it is a meditation or a movement practice or a simple cooking or a walk in the park, like, these are all ways in which we can come back to our center, our state of being, you know? And I'm excited to have anyone who's listening to continue to connect with you. What do you think? That's the best way?

Joshua Wenner

Ways to connect with me? Yeah. So there's. I have my website that's just Joshua winter.com, where I have nervous system programs and relationship programs and things like that. I also have my instagram where it's just Joshua Michael Wenner. And that's just where I have a lot of different videos and strategies. And I talk about a lot of these patterns in little bite sized chunks so that it's a little bit easier to digest what we're talking about.

Amie Barsky

I love that. What would you say? Is there anything else that we. That you want to hit on before we start to sign off? Is there anything else you feel is potent to drop in?

Joshua Wenner

The only other thing that I wanted to mention is you talked about the duality or the contrast. And I think it's really important just to circle back around grief, because usually what's not known about grief is we're avoiding, we're trying to fix things. And so some of the deepest work around grief is learning to accept and love the heartbreak and in the acceptance or the love and that it may never go away is actually what brings us peace. And so I find one of my mentors described this guy named Kendra really well. Is that we come into this world and we fall deeply in love with these fantasies. We fall deeply in love with the fantasy, what life's like going to be like, and our partner and our families being together, and we're never going to get hurt. We're never like, all these different things we fall in love with. And then those are taken from us. And when we do, we experience deep heartbreak. And oftentimes we're trying to avoid feeling broken. And that fear of avoiding we want to fix it is what keeps us stuck. So in learning to go, if I live in a dualistic world, can I both be whole and broken and love both of them? And the broken isn't meaning you're broken. It means you've been heartbroken. And so I find the ability to really lean into the heartbreak and really accept that the heartbreak is here and may never go away is actually what allows us to soften, and it actually allows us to come back to whole again, and then we grow more love. That's how I found it works. It's like your heart can just keep growing and expanding and expanding. So when you learn to love the, let's say your heart was here and it got shattered, and you learn to just love that shatter, what happens is your heart starts to grow around it, and then both can still exist where there's still heartbreak that you've learned to love and accept deeply, and your heart's much more full of love, and you can love deeply again.

Amie Barsky

So the grief work much bigger capacity, in my experience, anyway. What would you say is a tip or practice that our listener can maybe start today to start to support them in regulation or radiancy and vibration vibrancy. Is there anything off the cuff that you can offer?

Joshua Wenner

So I recommend you do a daily, like I mentioned earlier, twice a day, emotional regulation. And the one that I use that I've done a lot of research on white papers, and there's so many strategies, but the one that's the most effective is just a four, six breath. So you're basically breathing in for four and out for six or just longer. Exhales. And the key is you have to do that for six minutes. So it's a six minutes, four, six breathe twice a day. If you just started doing that today, in the next 30 days, life will start to be different because you're going to bring emotional presence and you're going to have a little bit more emotional capacity to choose how you want to respond. And if you do that for 30 days, what I hear from my clients, because it's a mandatory, I don't coach with people unless they do this. And the reason why is when they do it, they don't loop, meaning we don't loop patterns anymore. They actually solve them and we keep making progress. If they loop, I know they're not doing the work because they're not present and they're not catching what's happening. So you'll notice when you do or, excuse me, you'll notice when you don't do it because you'll get dysregulated. You won't notice when you do because it's working.

Amie Barsky

Absolutely a thousand percent. So if you're thinking to yourself, oh, my gosh, Amy. Joshua, I don't have time. Twelve minutes a day, y'all. Twelve minutes. Six minutes the morning, six minutes at midday or evening, you can sacrifice, not even sacrifice, you can give yourself the gift of twelve minutes a day to take care of this simple practice. Four, six. Breathing. To simply be with your nervous system, be with your body, be with yourself and fuel and fill up and give back because you will feel the benefits everyone around you. Because this is one of my practices, I know it for certain when I don't do it, I'm almost always scattered. And when I do it, there's so often my friends, my family, they'll be like, you feel amazing energetically. They're like, you feel different. There's something else there. And that's one of my keys to vibrancy. And so I love this. This is so beautiful. Joshua, what would you say is one of your daily I come first practices?

Joshua Wenner

Yeah, I mean, this is one of the first things I do in the morning is I get up and deregulation on my mat. I think just to add a different one in the mix is I'm really big into cold immersion and I do find it's really, really helpful. So I use it more not for the cold benefits, but for the emotional benefits of its a highly fast regular of the nervous system. And its also really good for dopamine. And I find we also have a big dopamine problem. And so in general, were constantly stimulated way too much. And so that actually regulates your dopamine levels for 7 hours. And so im a big advocate of, if you cant do a whole cold plunge, can you just get in the shower when you jump in just jump right in. And at first its a little bit cold. Like, thats even a great way to start to get you to charge. And then the hot water hits you and youre over it.

Amie Barsky

And when I was in Lisbon, we did a cold plunge. We did a rotation between the sauna, the hot tub, and the cold plunge. And my first time in, it wasn't my first cold plunge, but I hadn't done it in a while. And it's definitely a beautiful awakening to the nervous system. But honestly, like, the more we did it, I was like, it didn't feel as scary, if you will. It was just like, okay, this is next, you know? And it felt really invigorating. So I definitely am a fan of that. And I don't have one in my house. So what I've been doing is after I'm in, like, I do my morning workout and I jump in the shower and I do my business, wash my hair, what have yous, and then I hit the whole the cold water before I get out, and I'm like jumping around and I try to count to like 30 or 45 or whatever I can to just stay as long as possible because, yes, it can feel discomfortable, however, or discomfort, but the benefits are just so good. So good. So good. Well, I am so glad that you schedule time for this. I'm so appreciative of you making time. I know you're a busy, busyenousen man serving so many epic humans in this world. And thank you. Thank you for everything that you shared here. Please go follow Joshua. Get on his instagram. He gives incredible bite size pieces, tools you can walk away with. Besides what we talked about today in the four six breathing and yeah, thank you, Joshua. It's been a pleasure and have a magical, beautiful rest of your day in Austin.

Joshua Wenner

Thank you so much. Always a pleasure.

Amie Barsky

Thank you. Thanks for tuning into today's episode. I know your time is valuable, and I'm so grateful that we get a chance to share this space together. If you're wanting more from myself or any of my guests right now, I am a hell yes to that. I love your enthusiasm. So let's make it happen. Simply check out the links in the show notes for all the information on the latest offerings, programs, and possibilities to connect outside this space. Or feel free to send me a DM on Instagram, amybarsky coaching and of course, if you have any reflections or feedback, I am all ears. Also, if you feel this episode supported you, will you please leave a rating and a review? Your reviews really help people to discover the show. And if you know of anyone you feel would benefit from this podcast, please pass it along. A special thanks to my parents for always watching over me and for my team at full cast for making this show possible. I can't wait to be back in your ears next week. Trust me, you won't want to miss this next episode.