A Chat with Jennifer Knapp: Songwriter Returns to Kansas after 25 Years

Jennifer Knapp: 00:00:10

There was a part in going back to Kansas that felt like being

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able to celebrate that was a little bit

of rebellious resistance to say, you

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know, you try and write us out of the

church or the narrative or say that,

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you know, if we're, if we kind of go

off the beaten path a little bit that

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That there's some way that we've somehow

been a failure and I don't think that's

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the case I think a lot of people have

carried the success of this and we've

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grown into really outstanding human

beings I mean i'm amazed by my audience.

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I mean so many people that come to

my shows are working in mental health

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are working in You know, in nonprofits

that are giving back to the world and,

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and not just that, I mean, most of

those people, even if, you know, I'm

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no truck drivers that are working,

you know, in truck driving, but

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they think about themselves as being

genuinely part of their community.

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Tonight, a Christian

singer's shocking admission.

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She admits she's a lesbian,

alienating some of her fans,

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angering devout followers.

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Jennifer Knapp reveals how a

God loving woman rejected church

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teachings to be true to herself.

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Ex televangelist Ted Haggard,

who survived a notorious

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scandal, is here with us as well.

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Can you be Christian and gay?

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Should anyone have to

choose one or the other?

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Next on Larry King Live.

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Jason English (Host): I remember

watching that episode of Larry King

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live when the legendary talk show

host welcomed contemporary Christian

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music pariah, Jennifer Knapp, right

after she announced her coming out.

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It was like watching a

train wreck in slow motion.

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On one hand, you couldn't help but

admire Jennifer's courage for not just

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coming out, but sitting three feet next

to an evangelical preacher who all but

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said, she's going straight to hell.

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Jennifer talks about this appearance

during my conversation with her, calling

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it the most awkward moment of her life.

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Jennifer rose quickly in the Christian

music industry in the late: 1990

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her debut album, Kansas, in this episode.

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We dive into the heart of Jennifer

Knapp's journey from her roots in the

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Midwest to her celebrated music career.

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We'll discuss her reflections

on growing up in Kansas, her

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experiences with contemporary

Christian music and the impact of

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her courageous decision to come out.

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Jennifer offers a profound and candid

exploration of spirituality, self

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acceptance, and the complexities

of living an authentic life.

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We also delve into her latest project,

Kansas 25, a re imagining of her debut

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album to mark its 25th anniversary.

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She shares insights into the recording

process, the artistic evolutions that

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have shaped her music and the enduring

residents of her songs with fans, old

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and new from Nashville, Tennessee,

but obviously originally from Kansas.

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Here's Jennifer Knapp.

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Let's dive in.

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Hey, Jennifer.

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So good to see you.

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Thanks.

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Thanks so much for your time.

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Jennifer Knapp: Oh my gosh, Jason.

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Thank you so much.

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I'm happy to be here hanging out

with a good old midwestern friend.

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Jason English (Host): Can you

believe, uh, we're both, uh, born,

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born and raised in the Midwest.

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Uh, so I'm from Missouri.

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Obviously you're from Kansas

growing up in Missouri.

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Kansas is always what prohibited

us from getting into Colorado.

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Jennifer Knapp: and I always, I always

had like, uh, state envy because you

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guys were like the show me state and

so much cooler, like the coolest next

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door neighbors, like Kansas, like we had

like an inferiority complex, I think.

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Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh.

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I don't know about that, but yeah, no.

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And as I've gotten older, by the

way, I think you're, I think we were

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talking, we just turned 50, but.

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You've got me by three days.

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So you're a little bit older

than me, which is great.

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Jennifer Knapp: I have so much

more wisdom than you, Jason.

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Jason English (Host): No, but as

I've, as I've gotten older, I've

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actually appreciated Kansas a lot

more, you know, uh, the Flint Hills

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and the prairies and everything.

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So, uh, so it's good.

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I don't have, I don't have quite the

issue that I had with Kansas when I was

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growing up in Missouri, but it's all good.

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Jennifer Knapp: When you get older and

wiser, I, yeah, I've, I've got a few

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songs we can maybe talk about at some

point, but I mean, and I don't, I don't

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know if you relate to this as well, like

being from the Midwest, but like, I grew

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up in a town much smaller than Columbia,

Missouri, which is where you're from.

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But the hometown I grew up in, I

think now is about: 8000

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give or take a few thousand

people through the years.

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But I grew up in a town in the Midwest

where one of the things I talk about

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is just like, you know, you only

succeed if you don't live there

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anymore, which is a really bad kind

of way to talk about the people who

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inspire you when you're growing up.

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But, you know, You know, when you're

a kid, most of the time, all you can

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think about is like getting out of

the year, you know, one stoplight,

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one horse town and thinking about

getting on a bigger, better things.

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But as I've grown up, I've started

to appreciate, like you said, like

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the things when you're a kid, it's a

little harder to appreciate the kind

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of patience that it takes to, to stop

and observe the world around you.

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Like the Flint Hills, like it's one

of my favorite drives on all the

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planet and I've been to a lot of

places and there's nothing like it.

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When you, and there's a spot, you

know, on I 70 when you're driving to

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Colorado and it seems infernally long

to everybody and that's what everybody

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says, you know, it's like, it's just

in the way of me getting to Colorado.

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But, you know, there's, there are

moments where, and there's one

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particular moment that you only

get when you're driving west.

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to Colorado on I 70, you know, or

heading west in that way, and all

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of a sudden the Vista just opens up.

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You've thought that you're just on

this flat, nothing plane, and then you

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all of a sudden actually see the world

around you and what's happening, and

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it is one of the most beautiful things.

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And granted, it does go on for a few

hours looking like that, but it is, it

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is, You know, I think, you know, the

older I get, the more I appreciate getting

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the opportunity to actually spend time

taking that beauty in and not just to

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let it pass by or to, you know, just to

think it's something that I can write,

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write off because it's like, oh, I've

seen it, you know, check it off a list.

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I think to see the beauty in things

and it takes a little time and some

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patience and that's kind of one of the

things that I, as I've grown older and

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time has gone by that I've definitely

come to appreciate about my homeland.

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Jason English (Host): No, that's awesome.

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Well, I have two Kansas related

Kansas, the state related questions.

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Then obviously we'll get to the Kansas 25,

all the, all the great news about that.

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Your, uh, your new album.

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So I know you came into contemporary

Christian music late 90s.

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Did you ever, was your timing ever

crossing with Rich Mullins when he

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was in Wichita or was he in Wichita

before, uh, you know, before you sort

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of got into the, got into the industry?

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Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, that

sounds familiar to me.

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Did he live there for a while?

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I think.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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Yeah.

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He was in Wichita.

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Um, and then obviously I think in

the late nineties, right before

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he died, he was in New Mexico on

the reservation teaching music.

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I just didn't know.

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Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, I

never got to meet him.

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Um, you know, obviously, you know,

Nashville is the kind of the center

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of a lot of contemporary christian

recording artists So, I mean, I knew a

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lot of his friends and contemporaries

and in fact, there's a lot that I, I

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felt really fortunate when I first came

to Nashville, probably, you know, in

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the late nineties, um, there was this,

there's a sleepy little pub called,

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uh, Sherlock Holmes or Sherlock, just

Sherlock's, it was like this little

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Irish pub, it was like super dark and

they would sell serve haggis on St.

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Patrick's day and they had like the

best pint of Guinness you could find.

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Anywhere that they just poured the best

pint and I got to go hang out there

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with a bunch of folks And in fact, uh,

we'll talk about him later But Steve

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Hindalong who's producing this record

was one of the guys that I met kind of

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a long time back but that's all to say

is that there were a cohort of kind of

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just You know, people in the same vein

and spirit that worked a lot with Rich,

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but I never, I really, you know, I was

really sad when he passed because I

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never really got a chance to meet him.

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He seemed like kind of my kind of people

and I was really, you know, I was working

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so heavily at the time when I was there.

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It was really unfortunate that,

particularly as a young kid, I didn't

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really get to connect to some of

the people I thought were my people.

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And Rich was certainly one of them.

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Jason English (Host): Well, he was

the one that, you know, in his music,

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he talked a lot about Kansas, right?

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Uh, songs about, you know, uh, Calling

Out Your Name and, and other ones

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that, you know, he really embodied

and embraced living in, in Kansas.

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And, uh, so anyway, that reminded

me when we were talking about,

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you know, the beauty of Kansas,

I wanted to ask you about that.

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Uh, and then also, I think,

you know, like, you know, this

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podcast is inspired by Ted Lasso.

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So what a great representative

of the state of Kansas, right?

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How, how cool was that?

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Jennifer Knapp: I know we're having like

a Midwest resurgence in modern culture.

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It's great.

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You, me, and Ted Lasso, we're

bringing the Midwest to represent.

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Jason English (Host): I mean,

you know, he was kind of,

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Jennifer Knapp: you know, and I see,

as I'm looking, well as I'm looking at

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your video I notice you have an Ozzie

Smith who is the shortstop of the St.

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Louis Cardinals, and a Bo Jackson

who has played centerfield

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for the Kansas City Royals.

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We're in the heart of baseball season,

and I'm, you know, I'm seeing that.

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It's about 10 years on, but I, I deeply

enjoyed when, uh, the Kansas City

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Royals won the World Series in 2015,

so, you know, it's, at any time, and

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of course a Kansas City Chiefs fan as

well, so, it's, it's nice to see, you

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know, the times that we pop up with

Good Street Cred because, as you and

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I both well know, it's sometimes that,

that it's a forgotten kind of middle

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part of America that, that, that's

easy for people to drive through and

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just want to hurriedly kind of rush by.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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Fly, fly over country no more.

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So, um, anyway,

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Jennifer Knapp: But yeah, Ted Lasso, like,

Ted Lasso represent, the only grievance

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I have, actually, with Ted Lasso, is

that he, my, and, and almost a character

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flaw, I will say, is his distaste for,

uh, hot tea, because I am, My partner's

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Australian, and I am also an Australian

citizen, which, you know, connects me

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to the Commonwealth, and a cup of tea.

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I don't start my day

without a good cup of tea.

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So his, you know, his assertion that

it's just brown, tasteless water is,

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you know, short sighted and does not

speak well of my Midwestern roots.

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I'm like, come on, mate, you don't even

know how great your life could be if you

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just sat back and enjoyed a cup of tea.

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But I am, I'm so envious that I can't

have one of his biscuits to go with my

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cup of tea, otherwise known as a cookie.

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Jason English (Host): right, right.

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Well, I think they put, they've

posted the recipe for that.

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And I've always wanted to, you

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Jennifer Knapp: Oh, did they?

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Jason English (Host): give that a

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Jennifer Knapp: into that.

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That's amazing.

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Jason English (Host): the recipe.

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Yeah.

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So, all right.

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Well, duly noted on the

T um, no one's perfect.

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Not even Ted Lasso.

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So that's good.

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Jennifer Knapp: Indeed,

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Jason English (Host): Well, Well, uh,

it's, you've been busy the last couple

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of months recording Kansas 25, right?

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So congratulations on that.

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And as at the time of this

conversation, we're about a week

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and a half from its release.

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Right?

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So that's obviously 25 years in

the making, you know, uh, since the

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original was, was produced, I guess.

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Um, for you, how did the process differ?

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Like the last month and a half, two

months from what, what, what you recalled

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having gone through, you know, in the late

nineties, uh, the first, the first time

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Jennifer Knapp: Yeah.

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Well, and for those who don't

know, I mean, I recor I recorded

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my very first record in 1998.

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Uh, like my first signed record.

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So, uh, I got signed with a

record label called Gotee, and

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they had literally plucked we've

been talking a lot about Kansas,

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that's the theme for today the day.

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They plucked me out of Kansas where I

was doing a lot of, you know, just kind

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of random church gigs in and around the

Midwest and, uh, recorded that record.

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In fact, it got its name because nobody

we know none of us really knew what to

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call it And I was just like this weird

kid that nobody Coming into Nashville

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who hadn't been to it you know, I thought

Nashville was a huge city at that point

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when I moved in it felt like you know,

really hitting hitting the big time

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and But yeah, Toby McKeon who of course

is TB uh, Toby Mac or T Mac from DC

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Talk fame, uh, owned the record label.

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We didn't know what to call the record

and he just ended up calling it Kansas

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because that's where I was from.

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He's just like, I don't know,

just, you're, you're Kansas.

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It's like, and it was evocative

to him of, of some place that he'd

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never been and didn't hang out

and wasn't really familiar to him.

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So that to him was, I think, the name

that kind of stuck on the record.

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Um, but 25, you know, so, and like,

you know, Toward the end of last year,

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which, you know, officially last year,

: 2023

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record and a lot's happened in that time.

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I'm still, you know, creating

music, which is a wonderful thing.

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Um, the record's gone through a couple of

prints and, uh, But a lot of people have

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carried that record through the years,

you know I'm 50 at this point and a lot

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of the people who still love and adore

that record have gone through a lot You

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know you and I were talking pre broadcast

that you know, our lives have changed a

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lot since you know in that time We you

know, a lot of us have like grown up.

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We've gone gotten into middle age.

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We know who we are we've had

heartbreaks and successes and also

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questioned the meaning of life and

all the things in between and for

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whatever reason this record has

kind of stuck with the people who

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Grabbed a hold of it, I think, you know,

early on in their adulthood, and I think

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kind of got along board with the things

that I was going through at the time,

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just trying to, like, work my way through

as a songwriter, kind of thinking about

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who I wanted to be when I grew up, and

meaningfully, you know, in such a way.

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So, and yeah, so getting

back into recording, it was

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a celebration of, of that.

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And I think one of the things that I

wanted to accomplish was in going back was

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like, I wonder, like, I was just curious

artistically is like what, I still play

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some of these songs from time to time in

my live shows, but I was also like curious

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what they would sound like because I know

I play them different, but I never go

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back and I, I never go back and listen

to my own records or my own recordings.

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I'm, uh,

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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Jennifer Knapp: but, um, so I made

a rule that I wasn't going to listen

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to it, but I, I really, I originally

planned on just going into the studio

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and just putting up a microphone and

like plugging in my guitar and just

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playing the versions of the song live.

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And then I was talking to my friend,

Steve Hindelong, who produced the record.

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We started to kind of

dress it up a little bit.

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So it's still like.

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A pretty raw and live performance but

that was kind of one of the ideas is I

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just I wanted to kind of revisit those

Songs and see how they changed with me

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because I know I've changed personally

Um, but I also there's also a subplot to

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it as well Is it and for those, you know

unfamiliar with my history and trajectory

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I got my start in christian music You

know when I was in my 20s And you know,

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this is a christian record, but also

I came out later And married my wife.

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Uh, we've been together over 20 years

and when I did that that was a big

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controversy inside of faith communities

because you know, like the contest

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between conservative christians who who

genuinely do not uh, support LGBTQ plus

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people inside of their faith communities.

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Um, now granted there are a lot of

churches who do support LGBTQ people,

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but where I came from and a lot of the

audiences that had grown up listening

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to me, I probably, you know, pissed

off half of them and disappointed

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a lot of them because I was gay.

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And I think not only that,

you know, I mean, I, I don't

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think that's a unique thing.

286

: 00:16:44

I think a lot of us through our life

experiences, when we have like real

287

: 00:16:47

life experiences, And they don't

match this kind of pristine timeline

288

: 00:16:51

that I think sometimes conservative

evangelicalism can represent, um,

289

: 00:16:56

and my audience is no different.

290

: 00:16:57

I mean, we've been married,

we've been divorced, we've had

291

: 00:17:00

losses, we've buried children.

292

: 00:17:01

We've decided whether or not we're

going to raise our children in a

293

: 00:17:04

church and a thousand other things

in between, you know, we've, we've,

294

: 00:17:08

you know, come up short on our

income taxes, a thousand things.

295

: 00:17:12

And, We've been disappointing and we've

succeeded and in the middle of all

296

: 00:17:16

that, you know I think for people who

are kind of somewhat understand what

297

: 00:17:20

it's like to take on Uh ownership of

our spiritual selves as well as you

298

: 00:17:26

know Just not just living life as a

machine and going through the day to

299

: 00:17:29

day, you know Checking off the boxes.

300

: 00:17:32

There was a part in going back to Kansas

that felt like being able to celebrate

301

: 00:17:36

that was a little bit of rebellious

resistance to say, you know, you try

302

: 00:17:40

and write us out of the church or the

narrative or say that, you know, if

303

: 00:17:43

we're, if we kind of go off the beaten

path a little bit that That there's

304

: 00:17:48

some way that we've somehow been a

failure and I don't think that's the

305

: 00:17:51

case I think a lot of people have

carried the success of this and we've

306

: 00:17:54

grown into really outstanding human

beings I mean i'm amazed by my audience.

307

: 00:18:00

I mean so many people that come to

my shows are working in mental health

308

: 00:18:04

are working in You know, in nonprofits

that are giving back to the world and,

309

: 00:18:08

and not just that, I mean, most of

those people, even if, you know, I'm

310

: 00:18:12

no truck drivers that are working,

you know, in truck driving, but

311

: 00:18:15

they think about themselves as being

genuinely part of their community.

312

: 00:18:18

They're extraordinarily rich

people that have held onto this

313

: 00:18:23

record for one way or another.

314

: 00:18:24

And by, you know, the simple idea that

we can write people off because You know,

315

: 00:18:29

write out something that's been meaningful

to our communities, um, with something

316

: 00:18:33

that was kind of a little fun subtext

to be able to go back and record this

317

: 00:18:37

record, knowing that it represented that.

318

: 00:18:40

It was a way of us, I think a lot of

us inside of this community and kind of

319

: 00:18:44

having traveled that journey to be able

to celebrate that together, to be able to

320

: 00:18:48

know that just because we've aged doesn't

mean that we can't still see the, you

321

: 00:18:52

know, sing the songs of our youth and

celebrate that journey along the way.

322

: 00:18:55

Jason English (Host): Right.

323

: 00:18:56

No, that's great.

324

: 00:18:56

Who do you think the audience is for

this, this one, this time around?

325

: 00:19:00

Is it the same?

326

: 00:19:02

Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, I mean there

are a lot of diehard fans out there.

327

: 00:19:05

Um, You know, it's it's been really kind

of fun because you know I've been back

328

: 00:19:09

doing music now for about 15 years and I

still like there'll be some conservative

329

: 00:19:14

Evangelicals that hadn't heard about

me in a while will be familiar with

330

: 00:19:17

my name and this record will come up

and then they'll see Me and they'll

331

: 00:19:19

go oh wrong room So that'll be fun.

332

: 00:19:22

But you know, I think there are a

lot of There'll be a lot of, you

333

: 00:19:26

know, and I'm picking up some new

singer songwriter fans along the way.

334

: 00:19:29

You know, you and I were talking before

that, you know, I grew up listening

335

: 00:19:33

to Tracy Chapman and Sean Colvin

and Lisa Loeb and the Cowboy Junkies

336

: 00:19:37

and, you know, the Indigo Girls.

337

: 00:19:39

And a lot of those audiences I've been

playing in and around for a while.

338

: 00:19:42

So, um, for those who aren't afraid

and have figured out that I'm not a

339

: 00:19:46

terrifying, you know, like Christian

trying to, you know, You know, woo them

340

: 00:19:51

over to some holy, you know, sanctuary

kind of place, um, for those kind of,

341

: 00:19:56

I've, you know, I've picked up some

new fans along the way that aren't

342

: 00:19:59

necessarily invested in the Christian

side of it, but, you know, I think for

343

: 00:20:02

the most part, you know, I'll be happy

if we find the people who know and love

344

: 00:20:06

this record, you know, have a copy of

it to be able to celebrate that journey.

345

: 00:20:10

I wasn't really expecting it or

treating this record like it's

346

: 00:20:13

some, you know, new amazing release.

347

: 00:20:15

that, that needs to be, you know,

pushed to and make, and make new fans.

348

: 00:20:19

It's mostly been made for the old fans

and updated for our contemporary ears.

349

: 00:20:24

And, and, uh, that's so far the people

that have been able to, we've, we've

350

: 00:20:28

probably been playing it for about two

or three, I think maybe a couple of weeks

351

: 00:20:32

ago, we had, uh, some downloads available.

352

: 00:20:35

So the insiders that were helping

us get this project off the

353

: 00:20:38

ground and free those, those fans.

354

: 00:20:41

with like crowdsourcing campaigns like

Kickstarter, you know, it was largely

355

: 00:20:45

funded by just a, you know, a few

hundred people, this few hundred people,

356

: 00:20:49

um, we're already listening to it and

they're just blown away by the project.

357

: 00:20:52

I mean, it's, it's been, you know, it's

one thing to kind of have an idea about

358

: 00:20:57

what you hope it will accomplish in terms

of, especially when you use like the,

359

: 00:21:01

these songs have been around forever, but.

360

: 00:21:03

forever and everybody's familiar with

them, but you kind of like hope that

361

: 00:21:07

when you play them and that they'll look

different and they'll feel different

362

: 00:21:10

and represent you in the here and now.

363

: 00:21:12

Um, I can never really, you know,

you can't really guarantee that

364

: 00:21:15

you just kind of do it and hope

that it does because, you know,

365

: 00:21:19

it's being played in older bodies.

366

: 00:21:21

And I mean, I don't think anybody

under the age of 50 played on this

367

: 00:21:24

record, which was pretty cool.

368

: 00:21:25

We're all pretty old

and wise and doing it.

369

: 00:21:28

But, um, yeah, it's, it's been really

nice to see that, you know, the, the.

370

: 00:21:32

The people it was intended to be a gift

for have been there to receive it and I, I

371

: 00:21:36

hope along the way, you know, I, I suspect

along the way some, some new people will

372

: 00:21:39

find it and they, they might be a little

bit confused, I think, because it's not

373

: 00:21:44

like I'm working a Christian music career

at this point, you know, but, um, at

374

: 00:21:49

the same time, I think that's part of,

you know, I think that's an interesting,

375

: 00:21:52

it's an interesting topic to kind of get

into because I've debated about it for a

376

: 00:21:57

long time, like how much do I talk about

faith or spirituality when what I want

377

: 00:22:01

to do is go out and kind of live a quote

unquote normal life, you know, as opposed

378

: 00:22:05

to, you know, having a career where I'm.

379

: 00:22:07

you know, working in ministry

or something like that.

380

: 00:22:09

It doesn't mean that I don't have a

service, but for musicians in particular,

381

: 00:22:13

especially coming out of contemporary

Christian music, where they, people

382

: 00:22:18

somewhat anticipate if you write that

way and you're interested in things

383

: 00:22:22

like that, that you're also on a mission

to convert people to where you are.

384

: 00:22:24

And that's not necessarily the case.

385

: 00:22:27

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

386

: 00:22:27

No, that's good.

387

: 00:22:29

I like how you put that.

388

: 00:22:30

It's almost, if I could summarize,

it's almost like you're, it's like a

389

: 00:22:33

thank you, you know, to the kind of

your OG sort of fan club and crew.

390

: 00:22:38

Right.

391

: 00:22:38

And it's sort of a tribute.

392

: 00:22:41

Yeah.

393

: 00:22:41

It's, it's, it's, and it's sort of

a tribute to that time where you

394

: 00:22:45

came on really strong, really fast.

395

: 00:22:47

And this album was different

than everything else at the time.

396

: 00:22:50

And so that's some, there's a symbol

there that you want to pay tribute to.

397

: 00:22:54

And then I, I love how the fact

that like in the last 25 years.

398

: 00:22:57

So much has changed in the world

with you personally, with all of us

399

: 00:23:01

that are in the, in this demographic.

400

: 00:23:03

And, uh, so it's sort of an

acknowledgement of that, that in

401

: 00:23:07

everything kind of comes back around,

you know, in the, in the songs, I

402

: 00:23:10

think no matter where you are, you're

at in your faith and kind of on the

403

: 00:23:14

spectrum of Christianity, they still

resonate, you know, and, uh, cause

404

: 00:23:18

they, you know, to me it's like an

album of prayers and Psalms, you know?

405

: 00:23:23

Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, and

406

: 00:23:23

Jason English (Host): relevant.

407

: 00:23:24

I like

408

: 00:23:24

Jennifer Knapp: how I originally wrote

a lot of them you know, I was just

409

: 00:23:27

like I was a kid and you know as a

young adult in college and and Started

410

: 00:23:33

hanging out with my church and a lot

of my friends were like, well, why

411

: 00:23:36

don't you why don't you write about?

412

: 00:23:39

What this is experience is like for you

And so a lot of a lot of the songs on

413

: 00:23:43

this record weren't Weren't made to be

on the radio, weren't made to woo anyone.

414

: 00:23:48

They were just basically kind of

like prayers and journal entries and

415

: 00:23:51

me kind of sorting out, you know, I

like, I, I mean, I grew, I grew up in

416

: 00:23:57

the Midwest, like there's a church on

every corner and at the same time I

417

: 00:24:01

wouldn't describe my family particularly

as religious, just God's around.

418

: 00:24:05

It's just a kind of a thing and it's, it's

part of culture, but not necessarily You

419

: 00:24:10

know, I didn't have a lot of exposure who,

to people, you know, outside of your, you

420

: 00:24:15

know, pastors, that was their life's work.

421

: 00:24:18

But the rest of us, you know, 99.

422

: 00:24:20

9 percent of us in the, that ever went

to church or were inside of church,

423

: 00:24:24

you know, there were there because

we were I don't know, like, it was,

424

: 00:24:28

we were engaging in our worlds and

reaching out to something greater than

425

: 00:24:33

ourselves and having that kind of faith

and spiritual support and community.

426

: 00:24:37

That was familiar to me, but when I

started, you know, as a young college

427

: 00:24:40

student hanging out with a lot of the

evangelicals, it was, like, I thought

428

: 00:24:44

I knew the church and I did not.

429

: 00:24:46

Like, it was a culture shift, it was all

of a sudden, like, you're living in sin

430

: 00:24:51

kind of conversations, or, you know, you

have to put away these temptations, and

431

: 00:24:54

there were like a lot of do's and a lot of

don'ts, and it was really hard for me to

432

: 00:24:58

process and get my head around why all of

a sudden one day I was good in the eyes of

433

: 00:25:04

people that I was at, you know, going to

church with, and then the next that made

434

: 00:25:08

them, you know, question whether or not

I was genuinely serious about my prayers

435

: 00:25:14

and, and my reaching out to connect

to, to my spiritual maker, I guess.

436

: 00:25:19

And so I think a lot of those, a lot of

that consternation actually built and

437

: 00:25:24

like nowadays, like there's this kind

of movement called the deconstruction

438

: 00:25:28

movement, which is kind of around

centered around a lot, especially a

439

: 00:25:31

lot of us who came through the nineties

and the early two thousands kind of

440

: 00:25:34

very familiar with evangelicalism.

441

: 00:25:36

Evangelical Christianity and a lot of the

marketing that made Christianity cool for

442

: 00:25:40

a while, you know, a lot of cool music

You didn't have to wear pantyhose going

443

: 00:25:43

to church anymore You know the rise of the

mega church and and even to some degree

444

: 00:25:48

like it was like okay to be a Christian It

wasn't it didn't seem like such an anomaly

445

: 00:25:52

there for a while Um, and, you know, youth

groups were like, there were big youth

446

: 00:25:57

conferences in the tens of thousands of

which, you know, we are all products of in

447

: 00:26:00

some way, like, and I was part of that as

a, as a musician inside of that culture.

448

: 00:26:04

Well, we grew up and now we're thinking

for ourselves and like I said, we have

449

: 00:26:09

some real life scenarios with which our

spirituality and the way that we kind of

450

: 00:26:12

process our decision making paradigms and,

and trying to figure out who we want to

451

: 00:26:16

be as, As human beings like morally in

this world and ethically in this world

452

: 00:26:21

religion has a really great tradition of

being able to help us navigate through

453

: 00:26:26

that but You know when we are busting

the system and not participating with

454

: 00:26:30

the religion and upholding the religion

As opposed to having a life where we're

455

: 00:26:34

actually seeking to have deeply meaningful

lives Um, I was kind of working 20s and

456

: 00:26:40

before I knew it I was about 15 or 20

years ahead of the deconstruction curve,

457

: 00:26:44

which we're kind of experiencing now So,

uh, it is kind of a weird thing about this

458

: 00:26:50

record that is bizarre how it's kind of

stood the test of time in that regard.

459

: 00:26:54

But I, I, I, I digress in saying

that it goes back, to me, I own it.

460

: 00:26:59

I, I claim it in the space that these

were, these weren't made or, you

461

: 00:27:04

know, none of these songs were made or

manufactured trying to represent myself

462

: 00:27:07

or trying to be likable or pleasing to

a Christian environment or even to God.

463

: 00:27:13

They were just genuine.

464

: 00:27:14

and innocent prayers that no one had to

witness that I, you know, for whatever

465

: 00:27:19

reason decided to bring out of my little

college bedroom and, you know, I initially

466

: 00:27:24

played for my church and my friend, you

know, for my friends and then my church

467

: 00:27:27

and then before I know it, I'm in Chicago

and before I know it, I've signed a

468

: 00:27:30

record deal and before I know it, it's 30

years later and, you know, those prayers

469

: 00:27:34

are a moment in time of a kid who was

genuinely seeking to try and make sense.

470

: 00:27:40

something that hit me in the heart,

but didn't always make sense to me

471

: 00:27:43

in the day to day practical stuff.

472

: 00:27:45

And I think that's where a lot of folks

are, you know, deciding, you know, whether

473

: 00:27:48

or not we're going to raise our kids

that way, or if we're going to go back

474

: 00:27:50

to church or what, you know, how are we

going to connect with other people about

475

: 00:27:55

the things that we want to and need to

spiritually, but don't necessarily want

476

: 00:27:59

to get wrapped up into having to be a

poster child or a, uh, You know, we're not

477

: 00:28:04

necessarily looking to join a group, but

we're looking to connect to other people

478

: 00:28:08

and and and be involved and engaged Um,

so I think that's something i've been

479

: 00:28:12

working on for the last 30 years and I

think that's part of the interesting part

480

: 00:28:15

of Reclaiming this record and going back

and even when I judge it or there are

481

: 00:28:20

some songs that I went to perform that

Like ah, man, I can't believe I wrote that

482

: 00:28:24

I would like so drank the kool aid but

Also inside of that was an earnestness

483

: 00:28:29

to just go, I'm really in that space now.

484

: 00:28:32

I might not say it the same way.

485

: 00:28:33

I may not like necessarily, you

know, raise my hand and say,

486

: 00:28:36

Oh Lord, please deliver me.

487

: 00:28:38

But I genuinely earnestly might,

or you know, I do the hard work in

488

: 00:28:42

my personal life to kind of, to, to

shape and continue to be involved

489

: 00:28:47

in my own person and, and, and.

490

: 00:28:50

And who I am in the world and how I want

to be a positive and a loving human being

491

: 00:28:54

in the world and My faith tradition can

teach me a lot about that but I also

492

: 00:28:58

know that my I offend my faith tradition

equally as well when I bucket because

493

: 00:29:02

Sometimes I have to learn things and go

out and and my advocacy and lgbtq plus

494

: 00:29:07

stuff um and going and talking to churches

and and talking about how meaningful that

495

: 00:29:12

is to the lgbtq plus community has been

one of those things where I never saw

496

: 00:29:17

myself and didn't really imagine You Kind

of entering back into but I think the

497

: 00:29:21

songs have been really interesting and

kind of keeping me connected at times when

498

: 00:29:25

I've Genuinely tried to get unconnected.

499

: 00:29:29

Jason English (Host): No, that's cool.

500

: 00:29:30

And you touched on it, but I do want

to ask you, and I think I've, I think

501

: 00:29:33

I was tracking, um, cause Knowing your

journey in the last 25 years, going

502

: 00:29:40

back and the fact that like you came

into your faith in college, you know,

503

: 00:29:43

not late, but like a lot of, so I, you

know, I grew up in, in Missouri, buckle

504

: 00:29:48

the Bible belt, was in the church,

was in church all the time growing up.

505

: 00:29:51

Like it's, it's, it's

basically my childhood.

506

: 00:29:54

And there's a lot of us

that experienced that.

507

: 00:29:56

You were a little bit later.

508

: 00:29:58

But once you became a Christian, it feels

like the, the depth of your lyrics on

509

: 00:30:04

this album that you're now re releasing

and re in, in doing over, it's like you

510

: 00:30:10

were in church and had faith since you

were 18 months old, you know, like that's

511

: 00:30:16

what's crazy about this album is it

might as well, I'm not going to compare

512

: 00:30:21

it to like the book of Psalms, right.

513

: 00:30:22

With David, but like the,

the, the words, the melodies.

514

: 00:30:26

It's almost like, you know, when you,

when you fall in love and I'm not really,

515

: 00:30:31

I'm not a songwriter, but I can imagine

like if I fell in love, all the emotions

516

: 00:30:35

and the feelings that I would want to put

down on paper, it's almost like you took

517

: 00:30:40

a newfound faith and dumped it all in your

journaling and in your songwriting because

518

: 00:30:45

it's so in depth and it's so unique.

519

: 00:30:49

Uh, and that's, and that's, that's

the picture I have in my head.

520

: 00:30:52

Is that somewhat accurate?

521

: 00:30:54

I think you touched on it, right?

522

: 00:30:56

Jennifer Knapp: hmm.

523

: 00:30:56

Well, it's a certain.

524

: 00:30:57

It's certainly a great compliment.

525

: 00:30:59

I appreciate that You know, I I think

I think back to those times and I

526

: 00:31:03

mean I was diving into the Bible a

lot I mean one of the things that you

527

: 00:31:07

know when you're new to the church

and and I took my disciple, I'll use

528

: 00:31:13

the D word, discipleship seriously.

529

: 00:31:15

I mean, I really, I felt definitely

behind the curve for all my other

530

: 00:31:19

friends who had grown up in the

church or had families who were, had

531

: 00:31:23

long, deep histories of, you know,

going to church, you know, every day.

532

: 00:31:26

Three or four days a week.

533

: 00:31:28

Um, I didn't know anything about the

Bible and you know, I became, you

534

: 00:31:31

know, I, I, I read the, the Bible with

a lot of adoration and I still do.

535

: 00:31:36

I think it's an amazing text and, you

know, when, and I, but I did what I

536

: 00:31:41

was told and I actually read it and I

studied it, and it was a profoundly,

537

: 00:31:46

you know, and I think, you know, there's

a, a lot of amazing wisdom in there

538

: 00:31:50

and there's also a lot of wacky stuff.

539

: 00:31:53

Um, but it, you know, I, you know.

540

: 00:31:57

I'm not a biblical literalist by any

means, but I think, you know, with

541

: 00:32:00

all the controversy, you know, I

think it's one of the critiques that

542

: 00:32:03

I have about people's misunderstanding

about what to do with the Bible.

543

: 00:32:08

I mean, it's an incredible

witness to what deep thinking and

544

: 00:32:12

what a spiritual life is like.

545

: 00:32:14

It's a collection of all the people

who have been doing this for thousands

546

: 00:32:16

of years, and then one day we just

stopped kind of collecting it.

547

: 00:32:20

Well, I was reading a ton

of Psalms during that time.

548

: 00:32:23

I was trying to understand.

549

: 00:32:24

Stan, the big picture, not just a

scripture at a time, but like, what

550

: 00:32:28

is the whole, you know, what does this

whole chapter, you know, what does this

551

: 00:32:32

whole chapter mean in light of this verse

and then spreading it out from there?

552

: 00:32:36

What does this book mean?

553

: 00:32:37

What does this whole Bible mean?

554

: 00:32:39

What does this whole century mean?

555

: 00:32:41

What does this mean and

what connects me to it now?

556

: 00:32:43

And as bizarre as it was, I mean, I

really got in depth and I loved it to

557

: 00:32:48

the ends, you know, to the ends that

it's actually one of the things that.

558

: 00:32:51

It's not necessarily the Bible that's kept

me in it, but the intrigue about theology

559

: 00:32:55

and the way that, that God may or may not

be, or whatever God is, um, and connecting

560

: 00:33:01

to that, um, led me, you know, some years

later to have the opportunity to go back

561

: 00:33:06

and get my master's degree in theology.

562

: 00:33:08

So, um, I didn't realize that what

I'd started all those years ago

563

: 00:33:12

was like a really intense, academic

and, and deep dive into not just

564

: 00:33:20

the surface of saying, Oh, you know,

Jesus saves or something like that.

565

: 00:33:23

But to kind of really actually understand

something deep, what we mean when we

566

: 00:33:27

talk about something that's actually

redemptive, or when we talk about

567

: 00:33:30

liberation, or not, you know, I still

think of the work that I do is I hope

568

: 00:33:35

genuinely that everywhere I go that

people feel a deep sense of their

569

: 00:33:40

worth, and their dignity and a sense of.

570

: 00:33:44

You know, the depth of what love can

mean to them and what, what can be done

571

: 00:33:49

when we are giving the depths of our

love to somebody else and what it means

572

: 00:33:53

to be graceful and what it, what it

means to be free of shame and all of the

573

: 00:33:58

things that kind of hold us back when

we're angry or frustrated that, that

574

: 00:34:01

inhibit love from being able to happen.

575

: 00:34:04

I think these things are readily

available and understanding that

576

: 00:34:07

and that's what blew my mind.

577

: 00:34:10

actually, when I started to get into

this space, and it's still what attracts

578

: 00:34:13

me to it, even though it's this weird

kind of, you know, it has this weird

579

: 00:34:17

relationship with institutionalization

and authority and the justification

580

: 00:34:24

of what somebody, you know, allows,

you know, decides who they're going

581

: 00:34:28

to love and how they're going to love.

582

: 00:34:29

And I mean, I was sitting there like

early on in my days getting into doing

583

: 00:34:34

exactly what people told me to do,

which is read the Bible, and I did,

584

: 00:34:36

and I got there, and I'm like, wow.

585

: 00:34:39

What you guys are doing is totally

different than what's in here.

586

: 00:34:42

Like, is kind of weird.

587

: 00:34:44

So that was, you know, that was the way

that I write it, but it clearly profoundly

588

: 00:34:48

shaped my life and I've had to kind of

deal with the honesty that it has and

589

: 00:34:55

even to this day kind of go, I don't know.

590

: 00:34:56

Am I a Christian?

591

: 00:34:57

Do I want to be a Christian?

592

: 00:34:59

And I kind of care less about that.

593

: 00:35:01

But what I'm really grateful for is every

time that I've found another human being

594

: 00:35:06

on the planet who understands even just a

little bit about love, a little bit about

595

: 00:35:10

being a person in the world who, you know,

is interested in finding the, the glory

596

: 00:35:17

and the beauty of the most unsuspecting

unsuspecting people and their liberation.

597

: 00:35:21

They literally want to see them succeed

because you want to see them fly.

598

: 00:35:24

You know, there's nothing more amazing

than loving somebody and then setting them

599

: 00:35:28

free to be and wanting them to succeed

and being there when it doesn't work out.

600

: 00:35:32

But you know, all of that kind of stuff

wrapped up into it was all of this kind

601

: 00:35:36

of culture clash that was, Oh, wow all

that was in that little discipleship

602

: 00:35:41

kind of space that I took on and which

I think makes that book the Bible pretty

603

: 00:35:46

extraordinary if you read it, but you have

to read it and you have to kind of see it

604

: 00:35:50

for the wider picture and see that it's

It's extraordinary that you can kind of

605

: 00:35:54

look around and see a lot of, you know,

we haven't changed too much, I don't

606

: 00:35:58

think, as human beings in the centuries

since a lot of that stuff was written.

607

: 00:36:02

We all want to be loved, we struggle with

power, you know, we want to be perceived,

608

: 00:36:07

we want to win, we want to be loved, we

want to connect, we don't want to have

609

: 00:36:10

to work too hard to get what we want.

610

: 00:36:13

Jason English (Host): Right.

611

: 00:36:14

Jennifer Knapp: It's all in there.

612

: 00:36:15

It's pretty amazing.

613

: 00:36:16

So I just, I feel like all I've ever

done as a songwriter is kind of just

614

: 00:36:19

riff off, you know, riff off those themes

and, and, and try and, you know, read

615

: 00:36:25

something of other people or when you

connect with other people with something

616

: 00:36:29

about your experience, where you know

the emotion to be able to write out what

617

: 00:36:32

that emotion is and spend time with that.

618

: 00:36:34

And that's what I love

putting into my work.

619

: 00:36:36

And you know, it, it was,

it had that form in Kansas.

620

: 00:36:39

It's 25.

621

: 00:36:40

It has a very religious overtone and now

I still think it's present in my work

622

: 00:36:44

today even though I've kind of exercised,

uh, certain vocabulary restraints so I

623

: 00:36:50

don't go there and kind of use religious

language to express the same things.

624

: 00:36:55

A

625

: 00:36:56

Jason English (Host): Well, no.

626

: 00:36:56

And again, I'll say it again.

627

: 00:36:59

The depth of the songwriting at the time

and sort of your maturity or immaturity

628

: 00:37:05

as a Christian is, is, is ridiculous.

629

: 00:37:08

And I don't want to make it awkward

for you, but I want to read.

630

: 00:37:11

A few of the lyrics from, uh, Martyrs

and Thieves, if you don't mind, just

631

: 00:37:14

the verse, like a couple of the verses.

632

: 00:37:16

Jennifer Knapp: classic.

633

: 00:37:17

It is,

634

: 00:37:18

Jason English (Host):

This is, it's so good.

635

: 00:37:19

And I would love the background

on this, if it's different than

636

: 00:37:22

what you've already described.

637

: 00:37:23

But I, for the people that are listening

that may not know, kind of the,

638

: 00:37:26

you know, what we're talking about.

639

: 00:37:27

I think in this, these are words that

a Christian that's been a Christian

640

: 00:37:31

for 80 years, probably doesn't have

the maturity and the wherewithal

641

: 00:37:35

to put on paper like you did.

642

: 00:37:37

As a 20 something new believer, right?

643

: 00:37:39

So I just want to kind of call that out.

644

: 00:37:42

And then I have a follow up

question about some of this.

645

: 00:37:44

But, um, so the first verse, There's a

place in the darkness that I used to cling

646

: 00:37:48

to that presses harsh hope against time.

647

: 00:37:51

In the absence of martyrs,

there's a presence of thieves.

648

: 00:37:55

Who only want to rob you blind.

649

: 00:37:57

They steal away any sense of peace.

650

: 00:37:59

Though I'm a king, I'm a king on my knees.

651

: 00:38:02

And I know they are wrong

when they say I am strong.

652

: 00:38:04

As the darkness covers me.

653

: 00:38:07

That's not bad.

654

: 00:38:09

This is what I love though.

655

: 00:38:10

And it goes into a chorus.

656

: 00:38:12

I'm not gonna like read that.

657

: 00:38:13

The next verse.

658

: 00:38:14

There are ghosts from my past

who've owned more of my soul

659

: 00:38:18

than I thought I had given away.

660

: 00:38:20

They linger in closets and under my bed.

661

: 00:38:22

And in pictures, less proudly displayed.

662

: 00:38:26

A great fool of my life I have been, have

squandered till pallid and thin, hung my

663

: 00:38:31

head in shame, and refuse to take blame,

for the darkness I know I've let win.

664

: 00:38:37

I mean, come on.

665

: 00:38:39

that's some good shit right there.

666

: 00:38:42

Right?

667

: 00:38:43

Uh, so like, I guess.

668

: 00:38:44

Jennifer Knapp: young girl she was.

669

: 00:38:46

Jason English (Host): I mean, really,

like, uh, so, you know, well, there's

670

: 00:38:49

a lot of questions there, but, um,

yeah, the ghost from my past who

671

: 00:38:53

I've, who've owned more of my soul.

672

: 00:38:55

I mean, at the time, right, all the coming

out, all those things hadn't happened yet.

673

: 00:39:01

And I don't even know if like you

realize that you, you may be a, you

674

: 00:39:04

know, maybe a lesbian or not at the

time, but like the ghost, what were

675

: 00:39:07

some of those ghosts for you when you

were writing that at 22 or 20, 21 years

676

: 00:39:12

Jennifer Knapp: I mean the

the the shorthand version.

677

: 00:39:14

I was like a well, I had a good knowledge

of sex sex drugs and alcohol, you know,

678

: 00:39:21

which you know, it's pretty much part

and parcel for most people's college

679

: 00:39:24

experience, but with my conservative

Christian friends that I was the Like if,

680

: 00:39:32

like the fact that I quote unquote got

saved was a miracle to, you know, more

681

: 00:39:38

than a dozen people on my college campus.

682

: 00:39:40

Like they were like, this girl

has like, you know, lived.

683

: 00:39:45

And so it, you know, one of those

kinds of things where, um, And I

684

: 00:39:49

think about like particularly that

second verse that goes for my past.

685

: 00:39:52

I mean there was this weird thing

where Everyone was saying, you know,

686

: 00:39:55

you have to get right with god because

you're living this life of sin.

687

: 00:39:59

I was like, okay I'm, not sure it would

go that way, but I didn't know As I was

688

: 00:40:05

kind of becoming an adult and knowing that

there were certain kind of behaviors that

689

: 00:40:09

I was, I was literally abusing myself.

690

: 00:40:11

I mean, I was really not in a good

place when I came to Christianity.

691

: 00:40:15

I was waking up in places that I didn't

know where, how I'd gotten there and a

692

: 00:40:19

variety of poor life choices that, aside

from the moral part, were just unsafe.

693

: 00:40:25

And I didn't understand why I was.

694

: 00:40:27

Treating myself so poorly and I didn't

really understand, you know, I didn't

695

: 00:40:30

understand it But I didn't necessarily

judge it in the same way that the church

696

: 00:40:34

was judging it I just knew that I was

looking for some kind of peace and

697

: 00:40:37

order in my own life and to Understand

something about my own self worth that

698

: 00:40:42

I truly wasn't respecting myself or any

other human body that was around me And

699

: 00:40:47

so like kind of the quintessential moment

I think most people are familiar with

700

: 00:40:51

like the altar call moment right where

it's like Come down to the altar call

701

: 00:40:54

because you are the sinners, you know,

and you can name, you know, all of us

702

: 00:40:59

can name something of which we would like

to confess or wish that, you know, to

703

: 00:41:02

varying degrees of shame or, you know,

admission that, that we could do better.

704

: 00:41:09

And here this altar call would happen

every week and this expectation that

705

: 00:41:13

I wouldn't look like this person, you

know, that they wanted to conform out.

706

: 00:41:17

And like, even like ideas,

I'm like, no, no, no, I don't

707

: 00:41:19

want to get into a language.

708

: 00:41:21

You're not going to.

709

: 00:41:21

Slut shame me coming into church just

because I have, you know, I've slept

710

: 00:41:25

with people before I got married.

711

: 00:41:27

That's not the problem.

712

: 00:41:28

The problem is that I didn't respect

myself or the other people, you

713

: 00:41:32

know, in marriage or out of marriage.

714

: 00:41:33

It's not the point.

715

: 00:41:34

Like I was lost not because I had

sex out of marriage, but because I

716

: 00:41:39

was abusing myself and other people.

717

: 00:41:41

And this was a distinction that I was, you

know, Like, you know, I was like, I just

718

: 00:41:45

I didn't grow up with the Kool Aid So the

Kool Aid of shaming me into submission

719

: 00:41:50

wasn't something that worked and the

poetry that came out of that Was trying

720

: 00:41:53

to reconcile that trying to reconcile

am I am I really contesting something?

721

: 00:41:58

Like I didn't feel necessarily comfortable

with it Like all the church people are

722

: 00:42:01

going it's all I'd ever heard or good

people Are people were going to get

723

: 00:42:04

married as virgins and I'd kind of screwed

that up already like a couple years ago

724

: 00:42:09

So what did I do with the shame of that?

725

: 00:42:11

Because I have a community of people

that were shaming me about it.

726

: 00:42:14

It's like, stop shaming me.

727

: 00:42:16

Like, that's not the point.

728

: 00:42:17

And so I think a lot of that

showed, showed up in my work.

729

: 00:42:21

Like I'm going into this place and

everyone's reminding me of this past

730

: 00:42:25

that I have that is marking me as

so different because I'm suspicious.

731

: 00:42:29

I'm suspicious because I have

knowledge of other people.

732

: 00:42:31

I'm suspicious because you know Somebody

would try and teach me something and

733

: 00:42:35

I would say well, I hear where you're

coming from But more than just saying

734

: 00:42:39

Jesus doesn't want me to have sex.

735

: 00:42:41

Can you say something?

736

: 00:42:42

That's actually a little bit more

useful to me Then just shaming me

737

: 00:42:46

because that's shameful and why I came

here was to get out of shame and there

738

: 00:42:50

was something here That was alluring

to me that told me and gave me some

739

: 00:42:54

not have to live in shame anymore.

740

: 00:42:56

So I was looking for those

things and real nuggets of that.

741

: 00:43:00

And I, I think, you know,

by some great accident, the

742

: 00:43:04

poetry is a reflection of that.

743

: 00:43:06

I mean, I was just really laboring

hard to, you To find something that

744

: 00:43:10

was actually true and meaningful and

something that would last a lifetime

745

: 00:43:15

and not just something that would Get

me through this next week or or make me

746

: 00:43:19

pleasing in the eyes of you know, my past

or something like that I mean, I really

747

: 00:43:25

I wanted, I really wanted more from

my faith in that, in that experience.

748

: 00:43:29

And so that's what I think about.

749

: 00:43:31

And that's what I, you know, I listen to

martyrs and thieves and that's what I see.

750

: 00:43:34

Like I see that contest all over and I'm,

I'm shocked to know that like I made it,

751

: 00:43:39

you know, that, that, that, that was a

labor that I, I genuinely appreciate.

752

: 00:43:44

And I think it stood the test of time.

753

: 00:43:46

I, I, and I think that's something of the

critique that we should listen to, right?

754

: 00:43:50

When there's a reason why, when we see a

billboard that says, you know, God listens

755

: 00:43:55

that we somewhat cringe because it seems

so So, you know so on the surface and so

756

: 00:44:02

literal that it doesn't take the time to

look you in the eye Hold your hand when

757

: 00:44:07

you really need somebody to connect with

you and and be there For you and with

758

: 00:44:11

you and to help you and be alongside

you um, I think there's no replacement

759

: 00:44:16

for that and I just I just won't settle

for anything less in my writing either.

760

: 00:44:22

So

761

: 00:44:24

Jason English (Host): I mean, it's

beautiful like that, that will

762

: 00:44:25

stand the test of time, uh, that

in the, in the album for sure.

763

: 00:44:29

Um, but just real quick, I think

what's interesting is if it wasn't

764

: 00:44:34

for Christians, I think there'd

be more Christians, you know?

765

: 00:44:37

So like,

766

: 00:44:38

Jennifer Knapp: a, that's like Gandhi

said, it's not Christianity I have

767

: 00:44:41

a problem with, it's the Christians.

768

: 00:44:44

Jason English (Host): yeah.

769

: 00:44:44

Cause like, you know, again, the promise

of the gospel, at least my recollection

770

: 00:44:49

is, You're, everything's wiped clean,

you know, you're, you're a new creation,

771

: 00:44:55

you know, all the things, right?

772

: 00:44:57

But the, but Christians tend to focus on

the, you know, the behavior, the works,

773

: 00:45:03

the, the activities, you know, and And

it's like they're, they're, they're

774

: 00:45:08

so anti christian and, and again how

they've treated the gay community, right?

775

: 00:45:13

It's like so un christ like.

776

: 00:45:15

Uh, which I'm going to get to, I, there's

a, there's something I'm going to kind of

777

: 00:45:18

reference in a few minutes, uh, related

to one of your band members, uh, when

778

: 00:45:22

he posted a couple, uh, a couple of days

ago, but yeah, they're so un Christlike,

779

: 00:45:27

it's like, if they'd be more Christlike,

I think the church would be thriving,

780

: 00:45:30

but there's this, this crazy tension in

this crazy conflict when people look at

781

: 00:45:36

the people that are followers and they,

it doesn't add up to what, you know, we,

782

: 00:45:40

we see when we read the Bible, you know?

783

: 00:45:43

Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, it's a pretty

devastating experience for somebody

784

: 00:45:46

to say that they love you and then for

you to get there and go, I love you if,

785

: 00:45:50

Jason English (Host): Yeah, exactly.

786

: 00:45:51

Jennifer Knapp: it's, it's a, yeah,

it's a pretty shocking exchange

787

: 00:45:53

whether that's, you know, and the, the

curiosity to me about, about that is,

788

: 00:45:57

and it's not just a religious thing.

789

: 00:46:00

I mean, I think we know that in real life

if you just stop and take a second of

790

: 00:46:03

like what it's like For for somebody that

you know and that you've known for a long

791

: 00:46:08

time and that you turn to them and say

hey Will you be with me now and they go?

792

: 00:46:12

Yeah, I'll be with you if you know,

like it's devastating on a human level

793

: 00:46:16

so Like, whether I, you know, one of

the things I talk about a lot is like,

794

: 00:46:20

whether or not you believe in God,

you, you know what it means if somebody

795

: 00:46:23

says, God doesn't love you like that.

796

: 00:46:25

Like, you can be a flat out atheist.

797

: 00:46:28

It's still an ultimate insult to

be able to say, you are unlovable.

798

: 00:46:32

I, I'm not going to, you know,

God won't take the effort.

799

: 00:46:35

So why should I?

800

: 00:46:36

And that's, you know, I just, to me,

that's like the greatest, like it's,

801

: 00:46:41

yeah, it just doesn't make any sense.

802

: 00:46:42

It doesn't regardless, you know despite

religion like I just don't want to be

803

: 00:46:47

that kind of human being in the world

and I Don't you know to borrow one of the

804

: 00:46:52

phrases of one of my friends like she just

asked the basic question Is that is that?

805

: 00:46:56

For the gospel saying that

it's good news, right?

806

: 00:46:59

Is that actually good news?

807

: 00:47:00

Is anything in here happening?

808

: 00:47:01

That's good news Like because that

doesn't seem like that's good news that

809

: 00:47:05

never will qualify as good news to that.

810

: 00:47:07

It's conditional so some some part of

that story is about what it is about, you

811

: 00:47:13

know, right the conditionality of love and

it's a pretty Extraordinary and miraculous

812

: 00:47:18

thing to be able to get beyond The

expectations of what people can achieve

813

: 00:47:22

and just loving people as they come.

814

: 00:47:26

Jason English (Host): the ghosts that

were referenced, I know that you talked

815

: 00:47:28

about like, you know, sex, drugs, alcohol.

816

: 00:47:30

Uh, I think in your, you know,

the book that you wrote, a lot of

817

: 00:47:35

attention was paid to like, Oh, she's

written a book about coming out.

818

: 00:47:38

But the lion's share of that book was

actually about, uh, your childhood

819

: 00:47:42

and the impact of like divorce, right.

820

: 00:47:44

That of your parents and stuff.

821

: 00:47:46

Is that, is that part of the

ghosts that you're talking about?

822

: 00:47:50

Yeah.

823

: 00:47:50

Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, I mean the the

funny thing, you know, like well when

824

: 00:47:54

I went to sit down and write the book

a lot of people were like And as often

825

: 00:47:59

happens with notable people, um, who

come out, like, Oh, let's tell your

826

: 00:48:03

coming out story and, you know, expecting

this confessional book about gayness.

827

: 00:48:07

And I wasn't really interested in that.

828

: 00:48:09

Like, always, I'm kind of more

interested in the long story.

829

: 00:48:13

Because, like, but still in the back

of my mind, one of the reasons why I

830

: 00:48:16

sat down to write that book is the,

the, one of the consistent questions

831

: 00:48:19

when I was going through the coming out

phase and going through all like the

832

: 00:48:24

the slings and arrows and running the

gauntlet of hatred and breaking You know

833

: 00:48:28

being considered a rebel and being a

disappointment to the church Like I wanted

834

: 00:48:32

to answer the question Why are you so

resilient or how are you able to do this?

835

: 00:48:36

And the reason why I was able to do that

because I wanted to show the picture that

836

: 00:48:39

this is a lot a long journey We were all

making We are all making a journey and

837

: 00:48:44

all we're all trying to figure out how

to navigate the experiences that we've

838

: 00:48:48

had To be healthy to be you know to go

through disappointments or struggles So

839

: 00:48:53

by the time I get to my you know, so I

did the timeline in such a way It was like

840

: 00:48:57

by the time I get to lgbtq stuff I hope

what people saw was like this is just yet

841

: 00:49:02

and one and another This is nothing, you

know, this is one in another long of line

842

: 00:49:06

of things that I would feel like to some

degree I was finally prepared for and You

843

: 00:49:12

know that I knew that that no matter how

hard or difficult this was to try and have

844

: 00:49:16

me understood to the rest of the world

That I've been doing the work of making

845

: 00:49:21

sure that I am the human being that I

need to be regardless of the circumstances

846

: 00:49:25

So, you know, I just I don't feel like

it, you know It's not that I want to like

847

: 00:49:29

lambast anybody's Coming out story, but

I just, for me, in telling that story,

848

: 00:49:34

it's often the wider picture or the macro

journey that that intrigues me more.

849

: 00:49:38

And not just like a nitty gritty

story of how I realized I was gay.

850

: 00:49:42

I mean, that story is really short.

851

: 00:49:44

I met somebody, they're

really intriguing to me.

852

: 00:49:46

I.

853

: 00:49:47

You know, she went to leave me for the

first time and I like started chasing

854

: 00:49:50

her down the street, like don't go away

and it's 20 years later and I've still

855

: 00:49:54

got that woman like chained to my ankle

because I just don't, you know, life is

856

: 00:49:58

beautiful with her in it, but I didn't

sit there and go through like this kind

857

: 00:50:02

of narrative that kind of feels I'm always

really interested in the wider picture.

858

: 00:50:08

Jason English (Host): Yeah,

yeah, no, that's cool.

859

: 00:50:10

And I think, not to like, oversimplify

the, all the hard part that was part

860

: 00:50:15

of the book, right, but I think, you

know, one of your conclusions I think

861

: 00:50:18

was, you know, you were young, uh,

There's a lot of impact, a lot of

862

: 00:50:23

negative impact of the decision that

your parents made to get divorced, right?

863

: 00:50:27

Like it destabilized a lot

of things, which I totally, I

864

: 00:50:31

totally understand and respect.

865

: 00:50:32

I guess having grown up in the church, you

know, divorce was never an option, right?

866

: 00:50:38

Like never an option.

867

: 00:50:39

And so like, I, I look

at the topic of divorce.

868

: 00:50:43

I'm not saying it's different, but

it's a different perspective, because

869

: 00:50:46

I think there's a lot of miserable

Christian believers that are married

870

: 00:50:51

that they should be divorced, you

know, and, and I know that it has

871

: 00:50:55

an adverse impact, you know, it

has an adverse impact on everybody.

872

: 00:50:59

Right.

873

: 00:50:59

But

874

: 00:50:59

Jennifer Knapp: No, good, yeah, good

relationships are hard to maintain, yeah.

875

: 00:51:03

They can be healthy bound and

they can be, you know, they

876

: 00:51:06

can be just as healthy unbound.

877

: 00:51:08

Um, yeah.

878

: 00:51:09

But yeah, I think that's, you know,

like, the funny thing is, is like

879

: 00:51:13

the weird, although like my mother

and father were divorced, I still

880

: 00:51:18

actually grew up in one household.

881

: 00:51:20

Like my, like the, like the household

I grew up, my dad and his wife

882

: 00:51:24

were the only family really I'd

ever known in that nuclear sense.

883

: 00:51:28

Like I came home every day,

it was the same family the

884

: 00:51:30

entire time that I lived there.

885

: 00:51:32

So it's, but it, I think even more than

divorce, what I would say is like, To

886

: 00:51:37

me, it's like dealing with the fractured

nature of who we are and who we can be,

887

: 00:51:42

and shining a light on, you know, I hate

saying it, I kind of roll my eyes when I

888

: 00:51:47

do, but hurt people hurt people, and if

you can, you know, walking through and

889

: 00:51:52

any of us having to navigate these, like,

that's where I'm kind of agreeing with

890

: 00:51:55

you, like, we can be bound or living in

the same household, hurt people continue,

891

: 00:52:00

you know, are we going to be as an

individual in that scenario, whatever our

892

: 00:52:03

position is, are we going to be people

who continue to perpetuate that harm.

893

: 00:52:08

Are we going to try and do the best to

heal ourselves through whether it's a

894

: 00:52:11

minor, you know, whether it's a minor

injury or a major trauma, that's the

895

: 00:52:15

challenge of our human nature and our

work, which, you know, intrigues me, but

896

: 00:52:20

is, you know, I think it's, it's really

easy to go, Oh, my parents were divorced.

897

: 00:52:23

So this is why I'm screwed up.

898

: 00:52:25

Or, Oh, my parents were married

forever, but they were nuts and

899

: 00:52:28

should have gotten divorced.

900

: 00:52:30

Or they did get divorced and didn't do

it well, or whatever the scenario is.

901

: 00:52:33

We're all gonna, like, for me, it's not

like A bad situation is a bad situation,

902

: 00:52:38

and how we get, you know, whatever that

is, it's not necessarily where we are

903

: 00:52:41

situated, but how we live that, that,

how we navigate that, that situation

904

: 00:52:46

is, is really what determines what our

character will be, what the impacts that

905

: 00:52:49

we have on others, and, you know, when

we do negatively impact other people,

906

: 00:52:54

what willingness that we are willing to

take in that space to be able to heal.

907

: 00:52:58

Um, and it takes a lot of energy

and effort to kind of be in a

908

: 00:53:01

mindful living and, you know, I'll

circle back around to Ted Lasso.

909

: 00:53:04

I mean, Ted Lasso's not a saint, you

know, he lost his shit on a number of

910

: 00:53:09

occasion, but I think one of the things

that people especially appreciate the

911

: 00:53:13

timeliness of that, that writing and

that script and those characters is

912

: 00:53:17

there was a redemptive quality in all of

those And there was always an open door.

913

: 00:53:21

Even if somebody pissed you off or

really hurt you, there was, you know,

914

: 00:53:26

some kind of encouragement inside the

bulk of that series that was trying

915

: 00:53:30

to say, listen, we can do better.

916

: 00:53:32

We can aspire to do better.

917

: 00:53:33

And that's sometimes the best that we

can do, but it's, it's the heart that

918

: 00:53:37

is so meaningful if you're willing

to give yourself unto that journey.

919

: 00:53:40

And I've admired that in any shape,

you know, it doesn't have to be

920

: 00:53:45

in the Bible for me to find it.

921

: 00:53:46

I can find it in some unnamed

people that you'll never know.

922

: 00:53:49

And I found it, you know, I found it

in some of the characters that are

923

: 00:53:53

in my book, you know, some of the

people along the way, and And even in

924

: 00:53:57

the the flawed human beings of which

I am one that are in my own story.

925

: 00:54:02

So,

926

: 00:54:02

Jason English (Host): No, that's great.

927

: 00:54:03

That's great.

928

: 00:54:04

So back to the new album, I guess,

was there a song that when you were

929

: 00:54:06

recording this time around hit different

for you, given given the last 25 years?

930

: 00:54:14

Jennifer Knapp: uh No, I

mean for the most part.

931

: 00:54:17

I mean the the songs that I've The songs

that like martyrs and thieves is a song

932

: 00:54:22

that i've played for a long time It's

just a part of my dna that song uh And

933

: 00:54:28

whole again is another one like the

the songs that I regularly play Like

934

: 00:54:32

those are two that I probably will pull

out And never not play at some point.

935

: 00:54:37

Um, they just feel really native to me.

936

: 00:54:39

And then there are some that I just have

forgotten about that, um, that I don't

937

: 00:54:44

really play that much, but there were,

there weren't too many experiences where

938

: 00:54:47

I was just like, whoa, I mean, there was

a debate that I had about whether or not

939

: 00:54:51

I was going to include the song refine me.

940

: 00:54:53

It's a ballad that's on the record

and, uh, I didn't actually write it.

941

: 00:54:58

Um, so it was the one song on

the record that I didn't write.

942

: 00:55:01

It is probably one of the few songs that.

943

: 00:55:04

I like, I don't, when I learned

it at the time, it was a

944

: 00:55:08

cover song for me at the time.

945

: 00:55:09

So a piano player wrote it and

the guitar player that I was, I

946

: 00:55:13

just kind of got locked into this

guitar part that I absolutely hate.

947

: 00:55:16

And it's also like a pretty, I

don't know, like it's both girly and

948

: 00:55:20

it's a little bit more submissive

than my nature and my character is.

949

: 00:55:24

So I'm pretty uncomfortable playing it.

950

: 00:55:26

So I debated a lot about whether or not.

951

: 00:55:28

You know, with the excuse that I didn't

write it, that maybe I'd leave it off

952

: 00:55:31

the record, but it, it seemed like

editing history a little bit to do that.

953

: 00:55:35

So what I did was, um, actually got a, uh,

a friend of mine, Phil Madera to come in.

954

: 00:55:40

I said, listen,

955

: 00:55:41

Jason English (Host): No, that's

956

: 00:55:42

Jennifer Knapp: I don't.

957

: 00:55:42

Yeah, so I said to Phil, I said, just,

958

: 00:55:45

Jason English (Host): that's

959

: 00:55:46

Jennifer Knapp: want to learn this

song and in a totally new way.

960

: 00:55:49

So Phil's a wonderful keyboard

player, just knowing that the song was

961

: 00:55:52

originally written by a keyboardist.

962

: 00:55:54

And I just said to Phil, just learn

this, you know, learn this song and

963

: 00:55:58

you make a new creation out of it.

964

: 00:56:00

Like, you know, Do it like you're

doing a cover song that you want

965

: 00:56:03

to speak entirely different.

966

: 00:56:05

Don't listen to the record

Don't do whatever and whatever

967

: 00:56:07

vocal stuff that I have to do.

968

: 00:56:09

I'll figure it out I'll find a new way

to sing it But I want you to find a

969

: 00:56:12

new way to play it And that was really

that was a really lovely experience

970

: 00:56:16

to be able to go through that.

971

: 00:56:17

It's it's still not a song I think that

I would you know pull out like to go.

972

: 00:56:21

Hey, this is a song I want to sing every

night But phil's contribution to that

973

: 00:56:25

record and playing it In a modern context

with a lot of the way that it's kind

974

: 00:56:31

of interesting like phil's Adaptation

of it kind of makes me feel like i'm

975

: 00:56:35

doing like a barbara streisand number

Like it's got like kind of these rich

976

: 00:56:38

jazzy chords with like a little gospel

kind of thrown in there And it's it's

977

: 00:56:42

really epic and beautiful and it's just

the two of us doing that song, which

978

: 00:56:45

is really lovely It was it was a pretty

redemptive experience to go back So if I

979

: 00:56:49

just shut the door to it, I wouldn't have

been able to have that experience And I

980

: 00:56:52

think what's come out the other side is

something really renewed and refreshed

981

: 00:57:00

Jason English (Host): great.

982

: 00:57:00

And I'll come, I'll come

back to fill in a second.

983

: 00:57:02

But you mentioned Steve

Hindelong produced it, right?

984

: 00:57:05

Chris Donahue played, played bass, right?

985

: 00:57:09

This time

986

: 00:57:09

Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, you've been

paying attention to all the social

987

: 00:57:11

media stuff we've been putting out

988

: 00:57:12

Jason English (Host): All the,

all the posts I'm getting it.

989

: 00:57:14

And then Matt Slocum of

Sixpence None the Richer.

990

: 00:57:17

Is he your guitarist with, along with

991

: 00:57:20

Jennifer Knapp: I've

known Matt for forever.

992

: 00:57:23

As long as I've been around Contemporary

Christian Music, Matt and I were

993

: 00:57:27

playing at some of the same clubs

before either of us got signed.

994

: 00:57:30

So I've been a big Matt Slocum fan

for a long time, and now that we're

995

: 00:57:35

playing together, We're practically

neighbors and Steve Hindelang's kind

996

: 00:57:38

of the glue in between the two of us.

997

: 00:57:39

So he, he made sure that Matt got over

there and played a lot and, but Matt

998

: 00:57:45

really buried himself in the work.

999

: 00:57:47

I mean, he was there for hours

and just put his head down and

: 1000

00:57:51,665 --> 00:57:53,045

just really got lost in the music.

: 1001

00:57:53,045 --> 00:57:53,935

And I think it shows up.

: 1002

00:57:53,935 --> 00:57:57,065

It's some of the, it's some

of the most, uh, I don't know.

: 1003

00:57:57,065 --> 00:57:57,745

I'm really honored.

: 1004

00:57:57,755 --> 00:58:00,635

Like when I listened to the tracks

and stuff, I realized how much

: 1005

00:58:00,645 --> 00:58:04,005

that, that Matt in particular put a

lot of his heart and soul into it.

: 1006

00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:05,420

Jason English (Host): Yeah, that's neat.

: 1007

00:58:05,570 --> 00:58:06,390

And then you mentioned Phil.

: 1008

00:58:06,390 --> 00:58:08,080

So again, I asked you about Rich Mullins.

: 1009

00:58:08,090 --> 00:58:09,570

Phil was part of the Ragamuffin band.

: 1010

00:58:10,260 --> 00:58:11,330

Uh, when, when Rich

: 1011

00:58:11,335 --> 00:58:12,235

Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, for sure.

: 1012

00:58:12,420 --> 00:58:14,020

Jason English (Host): that,

made that album and toured.

: 1013

00:58:14,020 --> 00:58:18,440

And, um, so he, you know, and he's

plays with Emily Harris and all the

: 1014

00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:20,090

things, but he, a couple of days ago,

: 1015

00:58:20,095 --> 00:58:21,880

Jennifer Knapp: you, if, if Oh, sorry.

: 1016

00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:22,240

Go ahead.

: 1017

00:58:22,860 --> 00:58:23,320

Jason English (Host): no, go ahead.

: 1018

00:58:23,330 --> 00:58:23,510

Yeah.

: 1019

00:58:23,510 --> 00:58:23,940

Keep going.

: 1020

00:58:24,100 --> 00:58:25,900

Jennifer Knapp: Well, I was going

to say for those who don't know who,

: 1021

00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:27,390

who Phil Madera is, look him up.

: 1022

00:58:27,390 --> 00:58:30,830

I mean, he is a, an American,

he is an American music legend.

: 1023

00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:31,490

I'm for sure.

: 1024

00:58:31,500 --> 00:58:35,970

I mean, from all the things that he's been

participating with here in Nashville for a

: 1025

00:58:35,970 --> 00:58:38,390

gosh, I don't know, 40 years, maybe more.

: 1026

00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,450

I don't want to make him older

than he is, but yeah, he is.

: 1027

00:58:41,710 --> 00:58:46,980

He is a storied man who has the talent

to boot and I I call him phil fucking

: 1028

00:58:46,980 --> 00:58:52,530

madera You can bleep that out if you

need to but like he He's he's just

: 1029

00:58:52,570 --> 00:58:56,380

there's nobody else like him and

the fact that he took the time To

: 1030

00:58:56,420 --> 00:58:57,950

to work on my record was really fun.

: 1031

00:58:57,950 --> 00:59:00,640

And if you haven't checked him

out, he's doing he's creating all

: 1032

00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:01,830

the time Which is really brilliant

: 1033

00:59:03,190 --> 00:59:03,500

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

: 1034

00:59:03,530 --> 00:59:04,260

It's like Roy Kent,

: 1035

00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:05,070

Jennifer Knapp: were gonna say

: 1036

00:59:06,260 --> 00:59:06,580

Jason English (Host): No, yeah.

: 1037

00:59:06,580 --> 00:59:10,880

I was just going to say, um, so yeah,

I, I've, I follow Phil cause again,

: 1038

00:59:11,390 --> 00:59:13,240

goes back to the Rich Mullins days, but.

: 1039

00:59:14,020 --> 00:59:16,540

He plays with Buddy and Julie

Miller and Amelia Harris.

: 1040

00:59:16,790 --> 00:59:20,160

Like you said, he's elected, but

he posted just a few days ago about

: 1041

00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:24,010

your album and I had no idea that he

was going to be, uh, be part of it.

: 1042

00:59:24,010 --> 00:59:25,950

But this is, this is kind of what he said.

: 1043

00:59:25,950 --> 00:59:28,600

Cause this kind of goes back to some

of the things we've been talking about.

: 1044

00:59:29,180 --> 00:59:32,930

Obviously he's, he says nice words

about you and the fact that you, you

: 1045

00:59:32,930 --> 00:59:34,680

know, each other a long time, but.

: 1046

00:59:35,220 --> 00:59:39,400

He's like, when she came out a long

time ago, she being Jennifer Knapp, came

: 1047

00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:42,750

out a long time ago, she effectively

ended her career in Christian music.

: 1048

00:59:43,060 --> 00:59:43,990

She disappeared.

: 1049

00:59:44,820 --> 00:59:49,540

Uh, in: 2010

Emily Harris at a little fair in Kansas.

: 1050

00:59:49,570 --> 00:59:52,410

I found out that Jen was on

the bill, and I sought her out,

: 1051

00:59:52,830 --> 00:59:54,290

uh, on one of the side stages.

: 1052

00:59:54,330 --> 00:59:56,220

I just wanted to let

her know she was seen.

: 1053

00:59:56,910 --> 01:00:01,220

I find it mind blowing that

LGBTQ people still ascribe

: 1054

01:00:01,220 --> 01:00:02,780

to some kind of Christianity.

: 1055

01:00:03,310 --> 01:00:06,790

When many of the faithful have been

so unchristlike to their community.

: 1056

01:00:08,230 --> 01:00:12,520

I read that I was like damn Like

like cut to the cut to the heart.

: 1057

01:00:15,740 --> 01:00:18,960

Jennifer Knapp: yeah feels the thought,

you know, not only is it an amazing artist

: 1058

01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:23,180

like he's a he's a thoughtful guy And

I you know, I think the the legacy of

: 1059

01:00:23,180 --> 01:00:26,570

working in and around the faith community

for a long time Which you know, there's

: 1060

01:00:26,570 --> 01:00:30,420

a lot of us musicians here in nashville

that have had that experience but there's

: 1061

01:00:30,420 --> 01:00:34,680

a money where his mouth is kind of guy

and you know, he's been around and see a

: 1062

01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:39,880

lot of people come and go and You know the

fact that that he's you know, like i've

: 1063

01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,350

had an experience in nashville with some

people It's just the way that it goes but

: 1064

01:00:43,350 --> 01:00:48,580

some people won't touch you right because

i'm a I can be a third rail and being just

: 1065

01:00:48,660 --> 01:00:51,450

coming and playing on a record because

it can maybe get them in trouble with

: 1066

01:00:51,460 --> 01:00:55,490

their community, but phil's an example

of a guy who's never really hesitated to

: 1067

01:00:55,490 --> 01:00:59,455

do that and just Case in point, I put his

name out there in social media because

: 1068

01:00:59,455 --> 01:01:04,145

I'm bragging about him, and I want to, I

just forget that, you know, I'll ruffle

: 1069

01:01:04,145 --> 01:01:07,445

some feathers, but I put him out there

on social media, and before you know it,

: 1070

01:01:07,445 --> 01:01:11,165

like, it didn't even take 24 hours, and

they got the Christian haters showing up

: 1071

01:01:11,165 --> 01:01:15,335

on his website and giving him hell for

hanging out and supporting a queer person,

: 1072

01:01:15,335 --> 01:01:20,420

and, you know, and I think, but Phil's

a kind human being, like, he's just And

: 1073

01:01:20,430 --> 01:01:24,190

he's also, you know, saying, listen, like,

you might want to be like that, but not

: 1074

01:01:24,190 --> 01:01:27,940

around here, not on, you know, not on my,

not on my watch and not, you know, not

: 1075

01:01:27,940 --> 01:01:29,440

with people that I love and I care about.

: 1076

01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:33,140

And I think, you know, he's, he's

a guy that, you know, it's, it's

: 1077

01:01:33,140 --> 01:01:35,120

nice to see that kind of translate.

: 1078

01:01:35,315 --> 01:01:36,595

into, you know, his person.

: 1079

01:01:36,595 --> 01:01:41,015

It translates into his art and a lot

of the community that is one of the

: 1080

01:01:41,015 --> 01:01:44,765

reasons why Phil's so beloved here

in the Nashville area and not just

: 1081

01:01:44,765 --> 01:01:49,565

because he's an amazing musician, but

because he's, you know, a human being

: 1082

01:01:49,565 --> 01:01:54,475

who wants to like, yeah, have the world

full of other good human beings and

: 1083

01:01:54,515 --> 01:01:56,545

inspiring them and watching them grow.

: 1084

01:01:57,610 --> 01:01:59,430

Jason English (Host): No, that's

great So what do you think about

: 1085

01:01:59,430 --> 01:02:00,720

what he said about you know?

: 1086

01:02:01,470 --> 01:02:05,870

It's mind blowing that gay people still

ascribe to some sort of Christianity given

: 1087

01:02:05,870 --> 01:02:08,590

how they've been treated It's kind of

what we were talking about earlier, right?

: 1088

01:02:08,590 --> 01:02:12,260

Like Christians are sort of

our obstacle to Christianity.

: 1089

01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:14,560

And I guess, uh, so what

do you think about that?

: 1090

01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:19,360

And then my question is, are you,

you're not part of Christian music,

: 1091

01:02:19,620 --> 01:02:22,900

like, you know, the industry, uh,

but you're coming out with Kansas 25,

: 1092

01:02:22,930 --> 01:02:24,630

which is essentially a Christian album.

: 1093

01:02:25,430 --> 01:02:30,490

Are you, are you hoping and trying to

change kind of the evangelical church,

: 1094

01:02:30,530 --> 01:02:34,110

or have you accepted that like, listen,

there's going to be factions of it

: 1095

01:02:34,110 --> 01:02:35,580

that, you know, will never change.

: 1096

01:02:35,590 --> 01:02:38,160

And like, you know, you're not going

to like worry yourself with that.

: 1097

01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:38,430

Right.

: 1098

01:02:38,430 --> 01:02:38,720

Yeah.

: 1099

01:02:40,655 --> 01:02:42,235

Jennifer Knapp: Um, well,

I do worry about it.

: 1100

01:02:42,255 --> 01:02:45,825

I mean, I, I think, you know, as

a, the theologian part of me says,

: 1101

01:02:45,835 --> 01:02:47,395

bad theology is bad theology.

: 1102

01:02:47,405 --> 01:02:50,415

I mean, theology that hurts people is

just theology that hurts people and

: 1103

01:02:50,415 --> 01:02:53,515

it's not particularly, you know, if

we're going to qualify it as good or

: 1104

01:02:53,515 --> 01:02:58,075

bad or useful or not useful, you know,

I think the, the, the verdict is out on

: 1105

01:02:58,075 --> 01:03:02,680

how devastating the theology that says

that God doesn't love gay people is bad.

: 1106

01:03:02,900 --> 01:03:04,430

It's been incredibly damaging.

: 1107

01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:10,420

Um, so I think the evidence is there um

in that sense, but I also you know, what

: 1108

01:03:10,420 --> 01:03:15,530

I also know from from history is that once

Once somebody has an idea about god or

: 1109

01:03:15,530 --> 01:03:19,230

theology and starts to institutionalize

it It's it's pretty much here to stay

: 1110

01:03:19,260 --> 01:03:22,520

the people that buy into that are looking

for things that you know Are the camp

: 1111

01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:26,510

of people that they believe so like for

me personally, you know, I don't really

: 1112

01:03:26,510 --> 01:03:32,570

spend my time trying to convert You know

anyone into a person pro LGBT thing, but

: 1113

01:03:32,570 --> 01:03:37,290

that's rather to say, you know, and, and

even spinning off Phil's comment, like,

: 1114

01:03:37,290 --> 01:03:40,990

it's surprising that LGBTQ people would

ever want to go anywhere near the church.

: 1115

01:03:40,990 --> 01:03:43,580

And for me, I kind of felt

the same way for a long time.

: 1116

01:03:43,580 --> 01:03:48,080

But the point is that, you know, for

those of us who do desire to have a safe,

: 1117

01:03:48,110 --> 01:03:52,060

spiritual life to be around people who

understand something about a tradition

: 1118

01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:58,250

and a way of Fostering our Kim, you know

fostering our spiritual lives I mean

: 1119

01:03:58,250 --> 01:04:01,130

look at the same way as yoga You're gonna

if you want to do yoga, you want to get

: 1120

01:04:01,140 --> 01:04:05,080

better at yoga You go to a yoga studio

with other people who know yoga So if

: 1121

01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:08,850

you want to kind of do that spiritual

work, then it makes sense Especially when

: 1122

01:04:08,850 --> 01:04:13,640

you're doing deep spiritual processing

that a lot of LGBTQ people particularly

: 1123

01:04:13,750 --> 01:04:19,154

particularly in the city culture that

is, whether, you know, whether we like

: 1124

01:04:19,154 --> 01:04:22,765

to admit it or not, inundated with kind

of Christian ideas and concepts of right

: 1125

01:04:22,765 --> 01:04:26,685

and wrong and kind of, you know, these

kind of biblical ideas, well, that ain't

: 1126

01:04:26,685 --> 01:04:31,105

what, you know, it's Adam and Eve, not

God, not Adam and Steve or whatever,

: 1127

01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:31,930

Jason English (Host): and Steve, right?

: 1128

01:04:32,115 --> 01:04:33,025

Jennifer Knapp: rubbish like that.

: 1129

01:04:33,825 --> 01:04:34,645

That's out there.

: 1130

01:04:34,645 --> 01:04:38,150

And to be able to go through that is still

a level of shame, whether you pursue it or

: 1131

01:04:38,350 --> 01:04:43,230

Prescribed to that or ascribed to that or

not is still a thing to have to go through

: 1132

01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:47,870

in valuing yourself and your own dignity

So why would but to why would LGBTQ people

: 1133

01:04:47,870 --> 01:04:52,430

go to that space because that's spiritual

work So we need a spiritual community that

: 1134

01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:56,290

that does understand that and opens the

door to that and it's very prosperous So

: 1135

01:04:56,580 --> 01:05:00,510

what I'd say, you know, a lot of times in

my advocacy is not necessarily trying to

: 1136

01:05:00,510 --> 01:05:03,625

change bad theology I let those stories

go I don't fight that fight anymore.

: 1137

01:05:03,875 --> 01:05:07,465

I'm preserving this, you know,

I'm, I'm in this space going,

: 1138

01:05:07,615 --> 01:05:08,805

if you need to leave, leave.

: 1139

01:05:09,375 --> 01:05:12,445

And if, if you need to connect, then

connect, like, don't give up on that.

: 1140

01:05:12,445 --> 01:05:15,995

And I, I would say that regardless of

whatever your sexual orientation is,

: 1141

01:05:16,005 --> 01:05:21,295

like the, the institutions themselves

are not the authorizers of any of

: 1142

01:05:21,295 --> 01:05:22,440

us wanting to do what we're doing.

: 1143

01:05:22,730 --> 01:05:26,870

To to have a spiritual quest in our

lives and to find and connect to somebody

: 1144

01:05:26,870 --> 01:05:29,860

inside of that community is actually

really hard work And you're going to

: 1145

01:05:29,870 --> 01:05:32,980

have to stick to that work and you're

going to make a decision to advocate

: 1146

01:05:32,980 --> 01:05:36,529

for yourself to some degree because

there's For as many people that are out

: 1147

01:05:36,529 --> 01:05:39,930

there that would say that you're not

invited into this space I I mean i'm

: 1148

01:05:39,930 --> 01:05:43,100

fine with that like for me personally

Like I don't want to be in that space.

: 1149

01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:48,470

I don't want to be in the space of people

who are not Interested in my fruitfulness

: 1150

01:05:48,870 --> 01:05:51,190

my dignity and my flourishing, right?

: 1151

01:05:51,190 --> 01:05:54,815

You people who are invested in

that because it's hard work.

: 1152

01:05:54,825 --> 01:05:56,715

It's messy work and it's beautiful work.

: 1153

01:05:56,765 --> 01:05:59,035

And those are the people

that I really want.

: 1154

01:05:59,245 --> 01:06:00,154

I need their wisdom.

: 1155

01:06:00,154 --> 01:06:01,085

I need their support.

: 1156

01:06:01,135 --> 01:06:06,295

I don't need agreement, but I do need like

it does take a village to some degree.

: 1157

01:06:06,295 --> 01:06:10,000

So I think that's, You know, I

think that's what I would say.

: 1158

01:06:10,029 --> 01:06:13,050

Like, if Phil were sitting here,

I was like, that's why we go back.

: 1159

01:06:13,050 --> 01:06:15,390

We're connected because we're

connected to other human beings.

: 1160

01:06:15,390 --> 01:06:16,320

There's no way around it.

: 1161

01:06:16,350 --> 01:06:19,260

But we will find ourselves, you know,

and the church can be that, like

: 1162

01:06:19,265 --> 01:06:23,130

our, our spiritual spaces can be

that, but not everyone can do that.

: 1163

01:06:23,135 --> 01:06:27,820

So, um, you know, I, I just kind of

wa, you know, wipe the dust off my

: 1164

01:06:27,820 --> 01:06:31,450

feet, so to speak, of the places who

have made it very clear that they don't

: 1165

01:06:31,450 --> 01:06:33,070

want to be engaged in that white work.

: 1166

01:06:33,070 --> 01:06:34,779

And I go out and support

the people who do.

: 1167

01:06:36,900 --> 01:06:37,580

Jason English (Host): Yeah, that's great.

: 1168

01:06:37,620 --> 01:06:38,060

That's great.

: 1169

01:06:38,090 --> 01:06:38,320

All right.

: 1170

01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:41,470

So a couple more questions and that

you've, you've talked about coming

: 1171

01:06:41,470 --> 01:06:45,270

out like, you know, ad nauseum on

interviews and stuff, but I have to ask

: 1172

01:06:45,820 --> 01:06:47,880

about the Larry King live interview.

: 1173

01:06:50,705 --> 01:06:51,315

Jennifer Knapp: Oh,

: 1174

01:06:51,370 --> 01:06:52,210

Jason English (Host): as awkward?

: 1175

01:06:52,420 --> 01:06:54,630

Was that as awkward as it looked?

: 1176

01:06:54,785 --> 01:06:56,615

Jennifer Knapp: Excruciating.

: 1177

01:06:56,665 --> 01:06:57,445

Oh my god.

: 1178

01:06:57,455 --> 01:07:01,035

That was like the most painful thing I've

ever done on camera in my whole life.

: 1179

01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:06,910

Jason English (Host): I mean, I remember

watching it like, In real time along,

: 1180

01:07:06,910 --> 01:07:10,470

you know, 14 years ago, whenever that

was, and then, you know, it's on YouTube.

: 1181

01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:12,050

And so, yeah, if

: 1182

01:07:12,445 --> 01:07:14,705

Jennifer Knapp: Can you

be gay and Christian?

: 1183

01:07:15,540 --> 01:07:18,430

Jason English (Host): I mean, yeah,

well, the funny thing, so like, I

: 1184

01:07:18,430 --> 01:07:21,800

need to ask you, like Bob Botsford,

have you talked to him since that

: 1185

01:07:21,820 --> 01:07:22,970

the pastor that was on there?

: 1186

01:07:25,395 --> 01:07:28,654

Jennifer Knapp: No,

that, that Raph Scallion?

: 1187

01:07:28,654 --> 01:07:30,495

No, like he was supposedly there

: 1188

01:07:30,550 --> 01:07:32,210

Jason English (Host): Yeah,

like the one that was with you.

: 1189

01:07:32,404 --> 01:07:32,995

Jennifer Knapp: me and then I've,

: 1190

01:07:33,170 --> 01:07:33,580

Jason English (Host): Yeah,

: 1191

01:07:34,170 --> 01:07:36,720

Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, and I

had a gig that night, actually.

: 1192

01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:39,880

I had a, I had a, I was taping in LA

and then I had to go down to Orange

: 1193

01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:42,940

County, which was about a two hour

drive, you know, down to San Diego.

: 1194

01:07:43,265 --> 01:07:47,375

To do a show, or it was in Orange County,

it wasn't quite San Diego, but I had to

: 1195

01:07:47,385 --> 01:07:51,125

get in a car and get through rush hour

LA traffic to go down and do my show.

: 1196

01:07:51,125 --> 01:07:54,885

And I said to Bob, I said, well, I was

like, if you want to know the people that

: 1197

01:07:54,885 --> 01:07:56,705

I'm talking about, come, come see a show.

: 1198

01:07:56,845 --> 01:07:58,185

You can be pissed at me, that's fine.

: 1199

01:07:58,225 --> 01:07:58,915

All day long.

: 1200

01:07:59,095 --> 01:08:03,955

But don't you dare come and talk one more

word about any of this stuff going on.

: 1201

01:08:03,955 --> 01:08:06,095

Come down and, and this

is who I'm talking about.

: 1202

01:08:06,105 --> 01:08:08,154

These are the people that

you are talking against.

: 1203

01:08:08,740 --> 01:08:10,140

And I'd like you to come meet them.

: 1204

01:08:10,140 --> 01:08:12,910

I'd like you to come, you know,

It's not like my audience was like

: 1205

01:08:12,910 --> 01:08:16,229

a hundred percent queer, but there

were a lot of like, you know, This

: 1206

01:08:16,229 --> 01:08:17,890

was like 15 years ago or something.

: 1207

01:08:17,890 --> 01:08:22,300

So there were a lot of like otherwise

straight white Evangelicals coming

: 1208

01:08:22,300 --> 01:08:25,319

to my show that were getting pretty

pissed off at feeling uncomfortable

: 1209

01:08:25,319 --> 01:08:28,260

in there and not accepted in their

religious spaces for whatever reasons.

: 1210

01:08:28,779 --> 01:08:32,470

So it's like you should come down and

hang out and see that what I'm doing is

: 1211

01:08:32,470 --> 01:08:35,790

not what you're saying that I'm doing

like You think that you know, but it's

: 1212

01:08:35,790 --> 01:08:38,700

like hey, man These are just people

looking for love and I'm loving them and

: 1213

01:08:38,710 --> 01:08:42,430

that's what we're gonna do here So if you

want to come see that never came down.

: 1214

01:08:42,430 --> 01:08:47,640

I I've never seen him again I've played

in the area and I don't know maybe Maybe

: 1215

01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:51,170

I dusted the floor with him just enough

that he didn't want to be a mop anymore.

: 1216

01:08:51,170 --> 01:08:54,109

But, you know, it was just a weird thing.

: 1217

01:08:54,109 --> 01:08:57,029

It's just like, man, you say you're here

for love, but you're not connecting to

: 1218

01:08:57,029 --> 01:08:58,300

any of the people that you're talking to.

: 1219

01:08:58,300 --> 01:08:59,740

You're not looking them in the eye.

: 1220

01:08:59,750 --> 01:09:01,410

And it was just a weird thing.

: 1221

01:09:01,410 --> 01:09:03,340

I didn't know that dude

was coming on the show.

: 1222

01:09:03,340 --> 01:09:06,600

Like he shows up and yeah, the

Larry King crew is like, yeah,

: 1223

01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:07,779

we're going to have this guy on.

: 1224

01:09:07,779 --> 01:09:08,840

I was like, who is this guy?

: 1225

01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:09,760

What's going to happen?

: 1226

01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:11,779

And then Ted Haggard showed up.

: 1227

01:09:11,779 --> 01:09:11,840

I

: 1228

01:09:12,045 --> 01:09:13,295

Jason English (Host):

Ted Haggard shows up.

: 1229

01:09:13,305 --> 01:09:14,335

I was like, Oh my God,

: 1230

01:09:16,225 --> 01:09:16,645

Jennifer Knapp: I was

: 1231

01:09:16,645 --> 01:09:17,565

Jason English (Host): I totally forgot

: 1232

01:09:17,904 --> 01:09:19,305

Jennifer Knapp: many dudes, like,

: 1233

01:09:21,684 --> 01:09:22,415

Jason English (Host): was crazy.

: 1234

01:09:22,415 --> 01:09:24,045

And here's my take on it.

: 1235

01:09:24,285 --> 01:09:29,285

You had, you had Bob sitting next to you

who again, proclaims to be, you know,

: 1236

01:09:29,415 --> 01:09:31,395

he's a pastor, probably a giant church.

: 1237

01:09:32,184 --> 01:09:36,184

He's talking in veiled, all the

veiled language of, Hey, it's love.

: 1238

01:09:36,205 --> 01:09:39,404

But underneath it, you can tell,

like, he basically despises you,

: 1239

01:09:39,465 --> 01:09:41,604

you know, like it's, it's all there.

: 1240

01:09:41,645 --> 01:09:44,285

And then you have Ted

Haggard who was remote.

: 1241

01:09:44,765 --> 01:09:46,805

He kind of was supporting

you, but kind of not.

: 1242

01:09:47,319 --> 01:09:49,140

And then the, I think the one guy

: 1243

01:09:49,215 --> 01:09:51,265

Jennifer Knapp: be too supportive

might have made him gay.

: 1244

01:09:53,140 --> 01:09:54,040

Jason English (Host): Yeah, exactly.

: 1245

01:09:54,630 --> 01:09:58,510

The one guy though, that supported you

was, you know, this 80 year old Jewish

: 1246

01:09:58,559 --> 01:10:02,590

talk show hosts, you know, like he,

you know, Larry was actually, you know,

: 1247

01:10:02,590 --> 01:10:05,950

you could tell he was kind of like,

you guys are ridiculous, you know,

: 1248

01:10:06,220 --> 01:10:07,610

you know, talking to her like this.

: 1249

01:10:08,410 --> 01:10:08,980

I couldn't believe it.

: 1250

01:10:08,990 --> 01:10:10,220

I was just like, Oh my gosh.

: 1251

01:10:12,215 --> 01:10:15,325

Jennifer Knapp: Well, I got, I got

through it somehow, like, yeah, it, I

: 1252

01:10:15,335 --> 01:10:19,445

mean, it was one of those moments that,

you know, I was like, oh my god, like,

: 1253

01:10:19,455 --> 01:10:22,025

in the middle of it, like, you know how

you have the voice in your head, and I

: 1254

01:10:22,035 --> 01:10:24,825

was sitting there going, how did I get

here, this is the dumbest thing, I'm

: 1255

01:10:24,825 --> 01:10:28,975

never gonna do this again, like, I'm not

a big publicity, You know, I don't seek

: 1256

01:10:28,975 --> 01:10:32,965

publicity a lot, but it seemed really,

you know, one of the reasons why I

: 1257

01:10:32,965 --> 01:10:36,755

took the interview is because it's just

like, man, this is, enough is enough.

: 1258

01:10:36,775 --> 01:10:41,945

Like we gotta, like, somebody's gotta

take the opportunity to like be, there

: 1259

01:10:41,945 --> 01:10:46,200

hadn't been a lot of other like notable

Christians that had actually, Taken

: 1260

01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:49,460

responsibility for where they were at

like they'd come out or gotten caught

: 1261

01:10:49,470 --> 01:10:52,530

coming out or being caught as gay

It's like I'm not being caught as gay.

: 1262

01:10:52,530 --> 01:10:53,090

I'm gay.

: 1263

01:10:53,300 --> 01:10:59,370

This is my life and like why I'm not gonna

let allow Yet another like media surge to

: 1264

01:10:59,370 --> 01:11:03,400

scandalize a human being who's just living

their lives and I knew that you know

: 1265

01:11:03,430 --> 01:11:07,940

Like there's some it wasn't necessarily

for me like I'm fine you can people can

: 1266

01:11:07,940 --> 01:11:11,450

say you know, I wouldn't be out here in

the public eye if I wasn't able to some

: 1267

01:11:11,450 --> 01:11:16,720

degree to be able to To handle, you know

what other people think about me but there

: 1268

01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:20,440

is a certain point where it's like I was

thinking about my friends and and the the

: 1269

01:11:20,440 --> 01:11:24,760

people that I meet on a daily basis and

My community of people who didn't don't

: 1270

01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:28,720

get the voice that I have going No, you

don't get to do this on top of all of

: 1271

01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:32,300

these people's heads You can't just write

people off and write people out of the

: 1272

01:11:32,300 --> 01:11:38,920

church bob and ted, you know He was nice

and redemptive to a degree, but he wasn't

: 1273

01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:44,100

exactly claiming anything groundbreaking

or standing up for anybody I just stood

: 1274

01:11:44,100 --> 01:11:47,760

there and you know, tried to survive it

as best I can You know, I think if I had

: 1275

01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:52,140

to go back and do it again, I'd probably

be a lot more feisty and articulate but

: 1276

01:11:53,230 --> 01:11:55,020

You know just being able to go I feel

: 1277

01:11:55,030 --> 01:11:55,570

Jason English (Host): it was so, it,

: 1278

01:11:55,700 --> 01:11:59,350

Jennifer Knapp: be there and

not cry felt like a victory

: 1279

01:12:01,190 --> 01:12:02,980

Jason English (Host): yeah, no,

I mean, it was so, it was so new

: 1280

01:12:03,050 --> 01:12:03,790

Jennifer Knapp: But it's just it's

: 1281

01:12:03,950 --> 01:12:04,260

Jason English (Host): and now

: 1282

01:12:04,350 --> 01:12:05,559

Jennifer Knapp: changing the narrative

: 1283

01:12:07,420 --> 01:12:07,809

Jason English (Host): Yeah,

: 1284

01:12:08,630 --> 01:12:09,770

Jennifer Knapp: Well, I think over time,

: 1285

01:12:09,900 --> 01:12:10,820

Jason English (Host): So, um,

: 1286

01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:14,380

Jennifer Knapp: to faith, oh sorry,

we clearly have a little bit of

: 1287

01:12:14,380 --> 01:12:15,780

a lag here, so you go, sorry.

: 1288

01:12:17,010 --> 01:12:18,410

Jason English (Host): yeah,

yeah, no, that's right.

: 1289

01:12:18,410 --> 01:12:18,660

Yeah.

: 1290

01:12:18,710 --> 01:12:19,130

Keep going.

: 1291

01:12:19,140 --> 01:12:19,520

Keep going.

: 1292

01:12:21,100 --> 01:12:25,030

Jennifer Knapp: What I was going to say

is that, clearly there's been a narrative

: 1293

01:12:25,030 --> 01:12:29,960

inside of like the incompatibility

between faith communities and LGBTQ stuff.

: 1294

01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:33,955

And I think, You know, I disagree with

that largely because we haven't had a

: 1295

01:12:33,955 --> 01:12:39,434

voice and for lgbtq people now I think

15 years on you know, it's not exactly

: 1296

01:12:39,434 --> 01:12:43,985

smooth sailing But the you know, the

familiarity of lgbtq plus people that

: 1297

01:12:43,985 --> 01:12:48,575

sexuality is on a spectrum and so is

gender You know to some degree is not

: 1298

01:12:48,575 --> 01:12:53,065

necessarily hard and fast like everybody

has always kind of preached so to speak

: 1299

01:12:53,065 --> 01:12:56,330

that it is To be able to actually see

that people's lives haven't fallen apart

: 1300

01:12:56,330 --> 01:13:00,700

Fold it over, capitulate it, or as, you

know, I think one of the things that

: 1301

01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:05,045

like Conservatives sometimes like to

say that, you know, I've chosen to, to

: 1302

01:13:05,045 --> 01:13:06,795

give up and fall into a life of sin.

: 1303

01:13:06,795 --> 01:13:07,515

It's not that.

: 1304

01:13:07,515 --> 01:13:12,045

It's actually very liberating to

know who you are, to be confident in

: 1305

01:13:12,045 --> 01:13:15,285

who you are, and to be unashamed of

you, who you are, and to figure out

: 1306

01:13:15,295 --> 01:13:16,715

how to live your life with dignity.

: 1307

01:13:16,725 --> 01:13:20,800

And that's, that is not a journey that,

You know, I think if anything, I would

: 1308

01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:25,700

say the LGBTQ community has been helpful

to society in saying this is the journey.

: 1309

01:13:25,710 --> 01:13:27,100

Like, this is a life's work.

: 1310

01:13:27,100 --> 01:13:29,059

It's not about who you are sleeping with.

: 1311

01:13:29,059 --> 01:13:32,460

It is about doing the work of

understanding and knowing yourself and

: 1312

01:13:32,470 --> 01:13:36,180

being able to then, you know, know the

difference between the way that we behave

: 1313

01:13:36,180 --> 01:13:40,100

when we're living in shame and living

in the dark and we're struggling to,

: 1314

01:13:40,100 --> 01:13:41,855

like, Figure out who we are in the world.

: 1315

01:13:41,855 --> 01:13:46,105

It's it's a panicky hot mess But once

you start actually coming out literally

: 1316

01:13:46,105 --> 01:13:50,515

coming out of the closet Start to let

the light in so to speak into your

: 1317

01:13:50,515 --> 01:13:54,695

lives and actually embrace who you are

Have an education and understanding and

: 1318

01:13:54,885 --> 01:13:58,515

an investment in your own development

and your own growth and dignity It's

: 1319

01:13:58,515 --> 01:14:03,585

a you know, that is to me is actually

way more A universal prospect and I

: 1320

01:14:03,605 --> 01:14:08,090

think that's a gift that the lgbtq Q

community has paid a lot of extreme

: 1321

01:14:08,090 --> 01:14:10,430

prices for to be able to get through.

: 1322

01:14:10,490 --> 01:14:12,480

That's actually something

that we can all share in.

: 1323

01:14:12,480 --> 01:14:15,910

It's not just about putting a rainbow

flag on the door, but understanding

: 1324

01:14:16,260 --> 01:14:19,080

something about the community who

has been able to teach something

: 1325

01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:20,710

to us inside of the community.

: 1326

01:14:21,005 --> 01:14:24,795

with their experience and using that

in a positive way rather than just

: 1327

01:14:24,795 --> 01:14:27,684

saying, you know, You could write us

off or we could be mad or angry or

: 1328

01:14:27,684 --> 01:14:32,245

mad just going No, we actually want to

be a part of our community and share

: 1329

01:14:32,245 --> 01:14:36,635

our wisdom as particular as it may be

But hopefully that wisdom is a little

: 1330

01:14:36,635 --> 01:14:39,055

bit more than just binary so to speak

: 1331

01:14:40,940 --> 01:14:42,000

Jason English (Host):

Yeah, no, that's great.

: 1332

01:14:42,030 --> 01:14:43,680

Well, Jennifer, thank you

so much for your time.

: 1333

01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:45,180

It's so nice to talk with you.

: 1334

01:14:45,820 --> 01:14:48,780

Uh, would you be so kind

to play us some music?

: 1335

01:14:50,325 --> 01:14:53,335

Jennifer Knapp: Do you do

you have a a special request?

: 1336

01:15:25,355 --> 01:15:33,850

As a little girl, I went down to the water

with a little stone in my hand and it.

: 1337

01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:38,530

would shimmer and sing knew everything.

: 1338

01:15:46,795 --> 01:15:50,245

In a little, I got steeped in authority.

: 1339

01:15:52,075 --> 01:15:59,155

Heaven were went wrong when there is

nothing so cruel and meant to bury

: 1340

01:15:59,155 --> 01:16:08,005

that you Oh, and I, yeah, was mine

all along and I'm gonna find it.

: 1341

01:16:11,605 --> 01:16:13,015

I can see you.

: 1342

01:16:14,545 --> 01:16:26,714

Smiling, that's enough, well, I'm holding

on to you like a diamond in the rough,

: 1343

01:16:26,714 --> 01:16:31,704

yeah, like a diamond in the rough.

: 1344

01:16:31,704 --> 01:16:40,259

Every now and then I can see

that I am getting somewhere,

: 1345

01:16:40,259 --> 01:16:43,015

where I have to go is so deep.

: 1346

01:16:45,735 --> 01:16:54,225

And yeah, you know, I still

am, but I haven't lost too much

: 1347

01:16:54,235 --> 01:16:56,684

sleep and I'm gonna find it.

: 1348

01:16:57,635 --> 01:17:02,475

You're shining, I can see you.

: 1349

01:17:03,090 --> 01:17:15,600

You're smiling, that's enough, well, I'm

holding on to you like a diamond in the

: 1350

01:17:15,610 --> 01:17:21,574

rough, yeah, like a diamond in the rough.

: 1351

01:17:21,574 --> 01:17:29,960

Snakes in the grass

better step on the gas.

: 1352

01:17:51,430 --> 01:18:02,170

Snakes in the grass better step on the gas

In my dreams I go down by the water with

: 1353

01:18:02,170 --> 01:18:11,920

a Little girl in my arms and we shiver

and sing And we know everything Yeah,

: 1354

01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:16,720

yeah, yeah In my dreams I go downtown

: 1355

01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:33,910

I go down, you're shining, I can see you,

you're smiling, that's enough for you, I'm

: 1356

01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:49,090

holding on to you like a diamond in the

rough, yeah, like a diamond in the rough.

: 1357

01:19:03,635 --> 01:19:04,395

Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh.

: 1358

01:19:04,465 --> 01:19:05,595

That was fantastic.

: 1359

01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:06,450

Jennifer Knapp: you like them apples?

: 1360

01:19:07,910 --> 01:19:08,960

Jason English (Host): Oh, so good.

: 1361

01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:09,559

So good.

: 1362

01:19:09,790 --> 01:19:10,400

Thank you.

: 1363

01:19:10,410 --> 01:19:10,970

Thank you.

: 1364

01:19:11,860 --> 01:19:13,180

Jennifer Knapp: Oh,

it's my pleasure, mate.

: 1365

01:19:13,210 --> 01:19:13,720

My pleasure.

: 1366

01:19:21,848 --> 01:19:23,407

Jason English (Host): Thanks so

much for joining us for another

: 1367

01:19:23,407 --> 01:19:25,198

episode of Curious Goldfish.

: 1368

01:19:25,638 --> 01:19:28,918

Please follow and subscribe to

the podcast and on social media.

: 1369

01:19:29,498 --> 01:19:32,118

Also tell your music loving

friends about us too.

: 1370

01:19:32,848 --> 01:19:34,968

Until next time, stay curious.

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