Join us for an engaging discussion on Sports Talk New York as we dive into the careers of two former Mets pitchers, Jon Matlack and Bob Apodaca. Matlak, a left-hander who made his mark in the early 1970s, shares insights about his journey from a promising rookie to a respected pitching coach, highlighting his unique experiences, including facing the legendary Roberto Clemente. Apodaca, who transitioned from player to pitching coach, reflects on his time with the Mets and the challenges of coaching in a high-pressure environment, particularly in Colorado. The conversation touches on the evolution of pitching, the impact of injuries in baseball, and the ongoing discussion about the prevalence of Tommy John surgeries among young players. With anecdotes and personal stories, this episode offers a nostalgic look at baseball's past while addressing current trends in the sport.

Show Details:

Bill Donohue hosts an engaging episode of Sports Talk New York that features in-depth conversations with former New York Mets pitchers John Matlack and Bob Apodaca. The episode opens with Bill's warm welcome and an overview of the current sports landscape, including an update on the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. As the conversation unfolds, listeners are transported back to the early 1970s, a transformative period for the Mets, with Matlak sharing anecdotes from his rookie season in 1972. Matlack reflects on his meteoric rise, including winning the National League Rookie of the Year and his unique experiences facing legends like Roberto Clemente. The discussion touches upon the pressures of being a young athlete in the spotlight, the evolution of pitching strategies, and the camaraderie among teammates that shaped their careers.

The episode takes a poignant turn as Matlack reflects on the emotional and physical challenges of professional baseball, including the infamous game where he faced Clemente. His recollections highlight the unpredictability of the sport and the fine line between success and failure. Apodaca joins the conversation later, sharing his own journey from a promising prospect in the Mets' farm system to a successful pitching coach. His insights into the nuances of mentoring young pitchers in today’s game offer a fascinating perspective on how the sport has evolved. The duo's chemistry and shared experiences create a rich tapestry of baseball history, making it clear that while the game may change, the core values of hard work and dedication remain steadfast.

Listeners will appreciate the nostalgic storytelling, the lessons learned on and off the field, and the camaraderie that resonates throughout the discussion. The episode encapsulates the spirit of baseball, blending personal narratives with broader themes of perseverance, teamwork, and the pursuit of excellence in sports. As the episode wraps up, Bill encourages his audience to stay engaged with the upcoming baseball season, teasing future guests and more insightful discussions to come. This episode is not just about baseball; it’s a reflection on life, growth, and the bonds formed through the love of the game.

Takeaways:

• The podcast featured a discussion with former Mets pitchers John Matlack and Bob Apodaca, emphasizing their careers and experiences.
• John Matlack recalled his debut game where he faced the legendary Tony Perez, who hit a crucial home run against him.
• Bob Apodaca shared insights on the challenges of pitching in high altitude, specifically in Colorado with the Rockies.
• The conversation touched on the evolution of pitching injuries, particularly the increase in Tommy John surgeries among young players.
• Both guests reflected on the impact of coaching styles and how they influenced their approach to mentoring young pitchers.
• The episode concluded with discussions about the upcoming Baseball Hall of Fame announcements and its significance for baseball fans.

Chapters:

• 00:27 - Introduction to Sports Talk New York
• 08:31 - The Transition from Player to Coach
• 17:25 - The Business of Baseball
• 19:34 - Transitioning to Coaching and Family History
• 36:19 - Reflecting on the Mets' Past
• 44:15 - The Evolution of Pitching Techniques
• 53:03 - The Transition to Coaching

The views expressed in the following program.

Do not necessarily represent those of the staff, management or owners of wgbb. Live from the WGPB studios in Merit, New York, this is Sports Talk New York.

Our engineer Brian Graves is with us seated behind the glass, poised like Captain Kirk at the Starship Enterprise on the bridge, just surveying everything that he owns here.

He was a successful coach at the major league level. John Matlat will join us. And in the second half we'll speak to another former Mets hurler who went on to have a stellar career as a pitching coach.

Bob Abadaka will be here. So sit back, relax, get yourself a drink and a snack. Enjoy the ride tonight as you enter the theater of the mind that is radio.

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Good evening, Bill. How you doing?

We're doing great up here. How's everything down by you?

Well, we got a little snow and we've been stuck at the house for a couple of days. But hopefully the good Lord will bring some warmer temperatures and we can get out of here.

Yeah, yeah. Take your stuff out. I hear you. Growing up in Westchester, Pennsylvania, John, who were your sports heroes and favorite teams back then?

I didn't really have Any favorite big league teams? My favorite player at the time was Sandy Koufax and probably saw maybe five major league games before I actually played in one.

Wow. Okay. Yeah. And who were those teams that you saw?

I was mostly Philly.

Okay.

I lived out, lived outside, grew up outside of Philadelphia, so we went to Philly. Actually. Crazy story.

My high school coach had tickets in the 66 World Series in Baltimore to Game 5, which was going to be Koufax, and I was going to get to see my idle pitch. The series only went four games. That didn't work out so well.

Yeah, bad luck, John, that's for sure. See your idol, another great left hander, Sandy Koufax. Now, you made your major league debut against the Cincinnati Reds.

It was the second game of a July 11th doubleheader and you were in line for the victory. You departed the game after seven innings. What happened after that? Do you remember?

Well, unfortunately, it wasn't good for us.

No.

I think because we were close to the All Star break, a decision had been made to used Tom Seaver in a relief role, which was rarely done. And they brought him in to close the game. And we had a, I think a one run lead at the time.

And the guy who hit a two run home run off of me earlier in the game hit a three run home run off of him and we ended up losing.

And who was that? Who was that, Red?

Tony Perez.

Oh, boy. Yeah, another hall of Famer. There you go, folks. Even Tom Seaver blew a save back then. And the Mets. No decision for John. Mets lose the ball game.

And you ended the season 15 and 10 at 2.32 era. And you went on to win the Rookie of the year, as we said. And just a tremendous year.

It was a good year. There was no question about that. All things sort of fell into place.

I think actually we had a little more timely hitting or I made one or two fewer mistakes. Could have won a couple more ball games in there. But it was. All in all, it was a very solid year.

And it was sort of ironic because I had no idea there was such a thing as a rookie of the European, the green rookie that I was. Until the sports writers started coming around in August and asking me did I think I might win. And I had to ask them what it was.

I didn't Even know.

And now at the end of the season, everybody knows. John, you gave up Clemente. The Great Clemente got his 3,000 hit. It was a double to, I believe, to left center field.

I saw it on TV and that worked out, folks, to be Roberto Clemente's final hit in a great career. And I believe Duffy Dyer said at one point, John, that he just put down the wrong fingers. Is that what happened?

Well, that's. The catchers like to explain that. I don't know that it was the wrong finger.

I'm trying to backdoor a curveball and I was upset when it left my hand because I knew it wasn't going to be a strike. And I'm thinking I'm going to be behind in the count. Yeah, to a tough hitter. And he took his big stride as he usually does, and hands stayed back.

And I'm waiting for the ball to be caught for ball. And he reached all the way across the plate and slapped the thing in the left center field and ended up being a double.

And I was surprised that he was able to hit it number one. Number two was the result that it was.

And number three, even more surprised why they were giving him the ball at second base because I had no idea it was his 3,000th hit until I saw the 3,000 on the scoreboard.

Ah, yeah, a great milestone for Clemente. Yeah, a great bad ball hitter, John. So it was. It was really no fault of yours. As you said you expected to be.

Have the pitch, called the ball and Roberto reaches out and hits it. One bounce to the wall.

Yeah, he hit it pretty good and he had that quick hands and tremendous hand strength. Was able to do lots of things with that bat because I think he kept it back so well it rarely drifted.

He took a big stride when he approached the pitch, but his hands always stayed back ready to go.

And then you can see, folks, that great photo of Doug Harvey, another Hall of Famer, handing Roberto Clemente the baseball. As John said, took a while out of the ball game to get that done. But a great piece of major league history.

Now, you lockered between Seaver and Koozman, is that right, John?

That's a fact.

Tell us a little bit about the experience of lockering between those two great pitchers.

Well, it couldn't have been any better for this guy, I'll tell you that. I had tremendous knowledge on both sides, more toward the scientific and theoretical side on Tommy's side.

And then Cousy and I, both being fellow left handers, could commiserate about how to pitch this guy and what not to throw that guy. And it was a tremendous help all the way around.

You may not remember the name, folks. He was kind of a journeyman. He hit a ball that hit John in the head. I remember it. It was horrible.

Hit the ball so hard that it rebounded into the dugout. And tell us a little bit about the feeling there, John.

Well, I don't know if he hit it all that hard. It's just that I had a hard hit, I guess. But it was a pivotal point in the ball game.

I've got the bases draped with Atlanta Braves and it's starting to rain a little bit, and I've got to lead by one run. And I've got a new important out to get. And I make a really good pitch. 2.

2.

That was a ball. But I thought he offered at it. Grody thought he offered at it. Dump. I didn't agree. We appealed to first base. He didn't agree that it was a swing.

So now I'm 3 2, and I've got to make a good pitch. And I overthrew the pitch. I simply just tried too hard, landed too hard, lost sight of it on the way to the plate.

I can hear the back crack, but I don't pick up the ball until it's right on top of me. And barely, barely got my bare hand fingers up, tipped my fingers, hit the bill of my cap and right above my left eye.

Wow. Yeah, that was a bad situation. As I said, I remember that on television, folks, you were back on May 19th. That happened May 8th.

John, you were back by the 19th. That was a pretty good recovery.

Eleven days later, they had to get me back out there as quick as possible. I don't think that would ever happen in today's game. Maybe shouldn't have happened back then, but I was determined to try.

And they made me wear a funny kind of headband with protector on my forehead so that if I had gotten hit, supposedly it would sort of spread out the blow so it would cause no further injury. But I don't know that that would have worked. The thing I was worried most about was whether I would flinch, blank, be hesitant.

And out there when balls were hitting my direction, I wasn't. Fortunately, there were several balls hit. Second base, shortstop. Nothing directly up the middle, but close enough to know how you would react.

And I came away from it. Feeling very positive that whatever had happened that let me get hit in the head was purely an accident and I was beyond it.

It worked out okay. Yeah, you're right, John, in the fact that these days with the concussions, they would have gone through the whole concussion protocol.

It would have been a real emergency. But like you said, you were back 11 days later and back on the mound for the Mets. We're speaking to John Matlak tonight on Sports Talk.

New York now in 73. Let's talk a little bit about to get more into the 73 season.

Do you remember who got those hits, John?

Yeah, there's a journeyman infielder named Andy Costco.

Yeah, I remember him on the Yankees. Yeah, he was on the Yankees in the late 60s, early 70s. Andy Costco, folks, not exactly a household name, but that happens in baseball.

They held on two to one victory. Another ballgame. You lost the seventh and decisive game five two. And in the third inning of that game, he gave up two run homers.

Two run homers, not two. Two run homers. Well, they were two run homers to Campy and Reggie Jackson.

And that was that were, folks, were the only home runs that the, the great Oakland A's managed in that series.

So you can see how I've talked to some A's, John, and they told me that the New York Mets were the toughest opponent they had in that run to the World Series that year.

Well, we probably should have won all six of the first six games in that series.

Right.

The score didn't. The score didn't bear it out, but I think we outplayed them for six games. The real Oakland A showed up in game seven.

And hats off to them Campanares, I thought, hit a pretty good curveball. Might have been slightly wind aided, but he still had to put lumber on leather and he did that.

And Reggie hit a hanging curveball that when it left my hand, I knew it wasn't going to be good. And you might have been able to hit that one out. Was just spinning up there saying, hit me. And he didn't miss it.

Yeah. I don't know about me, John, but yeah, Reggie didn't miss it. Yeah, that was that game, that particular ball game.

Now everybody talks about Yogi Berra's decision to bring Seaver back on short rest for Game 6 because they felt the end coming. They wanted to clinch right there. And how do you feel about that particular decision by Yogi Berra?

Well, I don't know that that would have been a better decision to go the way he went.

The decision that may have been best and I don't know that I even thought about it at the time, but it's been brought to my attention so many times since was to start George Stone. He had had a hell of a season.

He did, yeah.

Pitch very, very well and pitch him in that game.

And then he's got seaver to start 7 if needed and me working out of the bullpen and of course anybody else who could pick up a baseball at that point also. So that may have made us stronger pitching wise to do it that way. You know, whether the outcome's any different, I don't know.

I've been asked that question many, many times.

A lot of the guys. That point will live on between us folks that remember the 73 series. Now, you were a three time all star.

As I said in the Open, John, you shared the MVP honors in 75. Here's an interesting point, folks. John Matlak shares the 75 MVP award in the All Star Game with Bill Matlock.

So you had Matlock and Matlock winning that. That was pretty weird, John.

Well, we joked between ourselves that the reason it was split was because they couldn't. They got the names confused and they didn't know who to give it to so they split it. Yeah, it was sort of crazy. I pitched two pretty solid innings.

At the end of the ball game, Jonesy came in and closed it and Billy got the big hit that put us ahead. So it was could have equal, you know, gone either way and turned out to be probably the best thing to do was to split it.

And that's just what they did.

That's the only time that's happened, folks, in All Star Game history. Man, that guy could rake, John.

Oh my goodness, he was some kind of hitter.

And I actually got a dinner out of it from Seaver and Cousy because we were coming into Chicago when he was hot as a firecracker in his first year up there. Nobody knew how to pitch him and they wanted me to try and figure out so I could help them a Little bit. And I was trying a new pitch.

I was working on a slider. I threw him one, and it broke more than I wanted it to hit him on the back knee. And he didn't play the next two days.

Oh, boy. Yeah.

So they didn't have to worry about him. They bought me dinner.

Not bad. Yeah, not bad. Pretty good. Now 77.

John.

They deal you to Texas. I mean, folks, it was a blockbuster deal. It involved, like, 11 players changing teams. The Rangers were involved.

The Braves, the Pirates, I think even were involved. How did you feel about them sending you to Texas, John?

It was a shock, for sure. It was probably my first realization that baseball was a business more so than a sport. At least I felt of it, you know, as a sport.

The way I was going about it. Now, all of a sudden, I was a commodity that was being moved somewhere else for somebody else. And it was a unique experience. Texas was okay.

I like the National League much better than the American League just because of the style of play and maybe because that's where I broke in and was what I was used to. I'm not sure.

Gotcha. Yeah. Some of the Mets were involved in that deal. The Pirates got Burt Blilevin from the Rangers and John Milner from the Mets.

So Milner was sent out, too.

The Mets got, from the Braves, Willie Montanez, and from the Rangers they got Tom Grieve and Ken Henderson, who was probably on the tail end of his career by then. But that's nothing new for the Mets. And Montanez comes to the Mets with his flip catches.

And as they say, there wasn't enough mustard in the city to cover Willie Montanez. He was a classic character. We got John Milner with us tonight. Excuse me. No, John Matlak. John Milner.

If he was with us, we'd really be in a tough situation. God rest his soul. Now you go 15 and three with Texas. You got your first save. You had elbow trouble, John?

I ended up developing some bone chips my second year there in spring training. May have had them for much longer than that, but that's when they became pronounced enough to get in the way and tried to pitch with it.

The initial X rays said only two, but then Dr. Job read the same X rays later and said, I can count maybe 10 or 11, and for everyone I can see, there's probably one I can't.

And they ended up taking 21 pieces of bone out of my elbow.

Wow.

Sometime later that year.

Tough. Yeah. Now, you retired following the 83 season, couple of years away, you decide to get into coaching.

You coach for the Padres Arizona League affiliate. And what made you decide to get into coaching, John?

There were a few things, really.

I didn't know that I wanted to stay with the game until I was away from it and sort of missed the camaraderie and being on the field and having the uniform on.

Also took my son to a couple of Rangers games as we still lived there in Arlington and was a little bit put back, I guess, by some of the things I was seeing going on at the big league level and thinking that they weren't being coached up the way they needed to be to be prepared to play there and maybe I could help with that a little bit. So decided to go back and give it a shot and did it for about 25 more years.

Yeah, you made a great career out of it. Now, are there any coaches or managers that you had along the way in your big league career, John, that influenced the style in which you coached?

Probably not too much. I think the guy maybe the most influence had the most influence on me was Rube Walker, and more so because of.

Of not so much how he coached, but he never said much. But when he said something, it was usually pretty profound. So it was.

He'd nod his head and he might throw a little pearl of wisdom in here or there, but if he set you down and had a talk, it was worthwhile.

Great insight there on the great Rube Walker, who Gil Hodges brought in to be the Mets pitching Coach back in 68. Now, I read, John, that your parents were married in Saugerties, New York. Now, Saugerties is a favorite town of ours and we go up there quite often.

My mother's brothers, my uncle's son has control over it and the life estate in it. And when he passes, it's going to go to the Esopus Creek Historical association and be kept as a historical site.

Esopus Creek, folks. There you go. Another great name you hear on the show tonight.

Gee, it runs through Saugerties, goes all the way up to the mountains, the Esopus Creek, and ends somewhere in Kingston. But a great piece of water that is Saugerties, New York. Folks, look it up.

A great little town up there, nestled in Ulster County, I believe it is, and. And just a fantastic place. Now, what do you feel, John, about these guys having Tommy John in high school?

It depends on the reason. For me, I'm hearing too much about parents trying to have Tommy John performed on the healthy arm to try and make it stronger than it is.

That's ridiculous.

Yeah, that's absurd. If it's got a broken elbow and you need to fix it, then obviously go ahead and do the surgery.

But why would somebody in high school need that unless they have been overworked, pushed, overused and otherwise over coached? Maybe the kids today are trying so hard, even all the way to the big league level, to increase spin rate, create vertical breaks.

You know, the sweeper is now the big thing.

Yeah.

Increase velocity. And it's all. To me, the important part of the game has all been lost in that.

The important part was get somebody out, stay out there as long as you can, and get the other side out. It was not about doing it at 105 miles an hour, although that's lovely if you can do it.

It was about staying healthy, being able to answer the bell every time they put your name on the card and go out there and keep your team in the game as long as humanly possible. And that seems to have gone by the wayside.

Yeah.

I mean, cutting into a perfectly good arm, there's something warped about that. There's something not right. And these people don't have their heads in the right places, I don't think, but that's something to be considered.

The statement I read on Sabre about you, John, it says his consistent consistency on the mound and your contributions to your team success, not your record, are what made John Matt like an underrated and unappreciated pitcher. How do you feel about that statement?

Oh, wish it wasn't true, but it may be. And I didn't know really too much about that until after I was done playing.

I saw some of the statistics and talked to some of the folks involved with the beginning of Sabre, and it's an interesting way to look at things.

When DeGrom had not such a great win year, but had great statistics and won the Cy Young, my name got brought back up because I had had a similar season in 74 and was never considered, and somebody compared the two for me and it was astonishing how close they were. Probably I actually had a heavier workload than he did. But it's just the game was decided by wins and losses. And I was 13 and 15 that year.

So was not, was not even considered, but probably was in the top 10 in all of baseball in just about all positive pitching categories. Something I did not know until way beyond that season.

Yeah, folks, as you know, you go on the MLB Network and you can hear them say that wins and losses don't matter as far as the pitchers go. It's the whip. All the anachronyms that you hear about.

But back then, back in our day, John, if you won 20 games, you'd be in serious competition for the Cy Young.

No question. That was one of the bookmarks that you sort of had to hit if you wanted to be in contention.

And I don't know that everybody did, but usually the guys that want it were in that 20 bracket somewhere, right?

Yeah, that was the criteria back then, folks. And as Casey used to say, you can look it up. What keeps you busy these days?

John I am retired and today I shoveled snow like crazy.

Oh, you got to watch out, my friend. Yeah, you got to be careful up there with that stuff.

No doubt, no doubt. No, I am helping with a baseball team or prep school that's down the road from where I'm living now and enjoying that whole bunch.

Other than that, it's just enjoying life. My dog, my wife and taking care of the family.

Outstanding great ideas you got there. All worthwhile things. And we thank you for being with us tonight, John. John Matlak, it's been a pleasure.

Thanks for taking time out of your Sunday evening to spend it with us down here on Long Island. We wish you all the best and maybe we'll catch you in Saugerty sometime.

Hey, that's a possibility. I enjoyed it. Take care, Bill.

Great. That's John Matlak, ladies and gentlemen. Up next on Sports Talk New York, we will welcome in another former met Bob Apodaca. He will join us.

So stick with us folks.

You are listening to Sports Talk New York.

All right, folks, we are back with Sports Talk New York here on WGBB AM FM radio live from beautiful downtown Merrick, Long Island. New York just had an update. Tampa Bay Bucks, who I'm a fan of, if you are, you'd be interested.

They are winning three to nothing over the Washington Commanders. So buccaneers ahead. Fire them cannons, folks. 30, almost 29 days until pitchers and catchers report to spring training camps in Florida and Arizona.

Here we are entering into the excitement of NFL playoff football and we are stoking the flames of the hot stove, talking baseball. It shows you where your host's heart lies, folks.

Just as a reminder, the results of the Baseball Writers association of America's vote will be announced on January 21st. It'll be on MLB Network, as it always is.

Then he went on to serve as pitching coach for the Mets, brewers and the Rockies. We're happy to have him with us tonight. Let's welcome to Sports Talk New York, Bob Apodaca. Bob, good evening.

Hi. How are you, Bill?

We're doing great.

Bob.

Great to have you with us. Now, you grew up in Southern California. Who are your teams and your sports heroes back when you were a kid?

Well, baseball was, I was a big Dodger fan. I probably listened to 10,000 Dodger games listening to Vin Scully. Nice. I love the LA Rams. Listening to Dick Enberg and call the LA Ram games.

Two greats.

Yeah, there was no hockey at that time, so it was, it was basically, oh, and then the Lakers. But I was a Boston Celtic fan for some reason. I just love the Celtics.

And so the Lakers in Boston, they faced off a number of times, but it was always in Boston favor.

Yeah, it went their way. Some, some storied matchups, folks, between Wilt and Bill Russell. But that's a show for another night, right, Bob?

You walked both of them and one of them came around to score. And it wasn't a good day for you, Bob.

Well, it was a memorable day. People, people remember my infinity era for that winter.

The thing that I remember most is that, you know, I was thought of enough at that time for the Season that I just finished in in aaa. And to warrant being called to pitch the ninth inning, I mean, Buzz Capper was down in the bullpen.

I don't know who else was available that night, but I didn't think I would be available because, to be honest, I hadn't touched a baseball in two weeks. I had finished my AAA season and drove all the way back to California. So I was off another week.

And then I got a call to meet him in Pittsburgh and I took the first plane I could to get there. And, you know, the rest is, you know, I went to the ballpark the next day and headed down to the bullpen.

Well, and then I saw a bunch of guys that was at. That were at AAA also. You know, the Loot Barnes, the Dave Schnecks.

Wow.

You know, Tommy Moore's, the Buzz Capras, they were all in at Tidewater those that year. So, you know, being reunited, because that was our goal. Our goal was not to pitch aaa. Our goal was to eventually get to the big leagues. And so.

Right.

But little did I know that when that phone rang in the ninth inning to get me up, it caught me a little bit by surprise.

But as you say, Bob, they thought enough of you to put you in that situation. So that's a good thing.

Either that or they had no other options.

Yeah, they were about to warm up. Rube Walker, I guess, at that point. Is that what you. Some great names you mentioned though, Bob. And you folks can Google these guys.

These were the future Mets down in aaa. Luke Barnes, the second baseman, Dave Schneck was thought of to be a great prospect out in the outfield.

And I remember one September I was at Shea Stadium and I got Tommy Moore's autograph and I thought, oh, man, here's the future. You know, I'm going to. It was a great thing. But those, those were, you know, they warranted pictures in the yearbook. They were the future Mets.

I know. And it, you know, Craig Swan was down there with me.

Yeah.

Royce. Royce Steger.

Roy Steger.

Yeah. I mean, the list. List goes on and on. That, that I grew up with, you know, from Double A to Triple A. And then.

And then we kind of filtered into New York, so. Right. It was. It was kind of.

We were homegrown and so, you know, we just lacked that, you know, that straw that stirred the drink, you know, other than the pitching. The pitching was always there in New York, but just didn't seem to have that Piazza, that Soto that's there now that.

That hitter that struck Fear, you know, Rusty Staub, outstanding hitter. Cleon Jones, outstanding hitter. But that one guy that would strike fear in the opposition.

No, they were always trying to bring in somebody and they were past their prime. The perfect example is Joe Torre, right, Bob? I mean, they bring Joe Torrey in after trying to get him for 10 years.

They bring him in and he's past his prime. They were always trying to bring Cha Cha over and he was beyond his point of view. Returned by that point. They were always trying to bring guys in at.

I mean, look at Joe Foy. I don't know if you remember him.

I remember him from Boston.

Yeah, he was shot when they brought him over here. You know, guys like that. Aspromonte was another guy who was at the end of his career. Fregosi was never the same when they brought him in.

But that was the Mets back then, folks, and they weren't great days. Except for 73. Were you on the club in 73, Bob?

Well, I came. I wasn't eligible for the playoffs. Okay, yeah, because you have to be on that list before September 1st. You have to be on the active roster.

So I came up in September, so I wasn't eligible. But I was there for the whole month of September, obviously that series in Pittsburgh. But then I. We went home and we would play.

We played Pittsburgh again. I was there warming up in the bullpen when Dave Augustine hit that ball off the left field fence, dreamed back to Cleon.

Cleon threw a strike to Wayne Garrett and he threw a strike to Ronnie Hodges. The nail, the slowest runner on the Pirates team, Richie Zisk. So I'm going in next inning if we don't score.

And then with two outs, I think it was two outs, I think Ronnie Hodges knocked in a run, the winning run. So I was going to get my second chance at the Pirates. So I almost got in again.

You folks Google that play the head off the wall. It was amazing to see. And one of the most memorable plays in New York Mets history. Dave Augustine off the top of the wall.

And as Bob said, Cleon to Garrett to Ron Hodges. And they nail Zisk at the plate. What a tremendous. I mean, Bob Murphy had a field day with that one, you know. Now how do you feel, Bob, about.

I just talked to John Matlak and we spoke, of course about game six. Yogi goes with Seaver on short rest. What did you think of that move?

Well, you know, back then I. I really wasn't aware of it. I wasn't in tune with really the rotation. But Putting my pitching coach hat on.

You're always looking to keep guys at full rest. And it would have been full rest for Matlak and if he pitched game six. And is that the case? It was Matlab.

George Stone was a guy that they could of views, but they brought seaver in on 6 in game 6 on short rest and they didn't want to save him for a possible seven because they would have clinched the World Series if game six came out.

On the positive side, turns out they run Matlak out in game seven and he gives up the only two home runs that the vaunted Oakland A's hit the entire series. So it's questionable.

I mean, to me you had nothing to lose.

Yeah.

Nothing to lose by holding Seaver for one more day.

No.

You know, so I think, I think, I think we could have really taken advantage of that, knowing that we have one of the best pitchers in baseball pitching game seven and then just leaving everything the status quo.

Yeah. Have Matlak come out of the bullpen in game seven?

Yeah, well, it's, it's all hands on deck in game seven.

Right.

So. So, you know, everything was lined up for that. So. But this, sometimes this game is, is governed by emotions and sometimes they.

We don't make the best decisions. But unless you're put in that position and have to make that decision, you really don't know how difficult that is.

Sure.

I'm it looking at it 50 some years later, you know, and I'm sure it was, it was looked up and downed and scrutinized, but still, Fox, still, that's something that people have been talking about for a long time.

Yeah, it's just fodder for us guys to sit in a bar and what about 73, you know, and stuff like that? That's all. We're speaking with Bob Apodaca tonight on the program. Now you win a spot in the bullpen in 74, Bob, your first career win.

You were a starter against the St. Louis Cardinals. And who was your opposing pitcher?

Oh, just another hall of Famer, Bob Gibson. And so I get my first win against Bob Gibson and I get my first hit against Bob Gibson.

Oh, do you remember what he threw you?

Yeah.

So you got to take that into consideration. So I was always a decent hitter. So I'm not going to go up there looking for something I can't hit.

As long as it's not at my earlobe, I'm going to be swinging at something that could be a strike. And so fortunately, he threw, and it was an early pitch.

I mean, if I'd have taken a swing and took a good hack at it and fouled off, I'm sure he would have knocked my ass down. Yeah.

Which was his wand, folks. Bob Gibson was known for that. For close shaves and knocking guys down. Look up Drysdale, too. Two hall of Famers who had no trouble.

I think one of them said they'd knock their own mother down and they'd pick her up and dust her off. But don't get to first base, Ma.

No.

I grew up watching Drysdale and Koufax and Coado, Steen and that group. Ron Paranowski, Ron Paranofsky, Jim Brewer, then the infield. I mean, I was well, well versed in the Dodgers.

Yeah, they had some great names on the club. They really did. Now, you had some trouble with your elbow. I believe it was 78, Bob. You tore a ligament and you kind of called it quits after that.

That was basically it, you know, other than Tommy John having the surgery. And it was Star wars type surgery, and it took him a couple of years before he.

I mean, they learned from some of the mistakes they did from his surgery. He was in a cast for, like, forgot what he said. I thought he said, like, 16 weeks and wow. Yeah.

Got out of the cast and his arm was just withered and he had so much. So much rehab to do on his. On his arm. But this sucker won more games after this surgery than any before the surgery, so. Oh, yeah. So kudos to Tommy.

My God, he just resurrected his. His career.

He wasn't a hard thrower to begin with, but he just refined the things that he was capable of doing and just became, you know, on the verge of one of those guys that could be a Hall of Famer. You know, he's tiptoeing that line now.

What about Bob? I spoke to Matlak about this, too. These kids having Tommy John in high school.

Yeah. I mean, that is something that's pretty prevalent. And because. Because kids are not playing multiple sports.

First of all, listening to team physicians, especially like the Dr.

Andrews, the guy who does a lot of these Tommy John surgeries, the kids are relegating themselves to one sport and they're throwing the baseball all year round.

Whether it's pitching in these things to get noticed or the special teams that travel, or it's going to these Camps with loaded baseballs that are heavier baseballs to increase velocity. They're throwing constantly and now they're getting hurt at the high school levels. They're throwing harder. That's without question.

They're throwing much harder. They're throwing much harder in college. But the human body hasn't learned how to strengthen ligaments. You know, you can't strengthen a ligament.

You can strengthen muscle, but you can't strengthen a ligament. And so the human body can only take so much stress.

And when you think about a guy throwing close to 100 miles an hour and above, the stress that's put on shoulder, elbow, whatever, whatever joint, you know, it's immense. So you have to be careful. That's why, that's why scouts are invaluable in doing the homework when.

Before they invest in these prospects and because they're your investment and you got to protect your investment. So like Legram deGrom, I mean, how many surgeries has he had now?

And I mean, he was an investment for the Texas Rangers and it's not something that has come to the forefront yet.

No.

So you got to be. And he was all world pitcher for a couple of years with us with the Mets.

Yes, he was.

So, I mean, he was the best, bar none. He was the best. And we don't know if he'll ever be that same guy.

There's a rumor they may bring him back, so we'll reserve judgment on deGrom for now. But I can see what you mean about the surgeries and stuff like that. These kids going through it at such an early age.

It brings to mind Nolan Ryan, a guy like that, who. But he wasn't throwing all year round. Like, like the point you brought out.

No, no, no. When he, when he would finish his season, he went back to the farm, right? Ranch. Yeah. And. And worked. So, you know, that's, that's what they all did.

All these guys who lasted 15, 20 years, they didn't throw the baseball all year round. They went home, decompressed. A lot of them had to go back and supplement their incomes back in the day.

So, so, and then, and then, you know, Sever was the first one I ever saw that went into a strengthening program. And so. And it was just shoulder. It wasn't really build up and it wasn't meant to throw harder. He just. Did the shoulder work.

All those muscles after you pitch a game, those muscles that are sore, real stiff after you pitch a game, and they're usually in the back of the shoulder. Those are the muscles that slow the arm down and those are the things he focused on, those and his legs.

And everybody can relate to what Seaver could do with those legs.

It was phenomenal. Now, you're known, as you say with your pitching coach hat on, Bob, as a pretty stellar pitching coach in your day.

Is there anybody along the way in your major minor league career who kind of influenced your style of coaching?

Oh, without a doubt. Mel Steinmeier.

Oh, boy.

And so I'm in the Mets minor league system, so I was in Triple A for six years, so I would get invited to big league camp every year. And so Mel just saw the passion I had for coaching and wanting to learn, and I would follow him wherever he went.

If he stopped real fast, I bumped into the back of him. So he was. He was absolutely a gentleman. He was super knowledgeable.

The players loved him because he took the time to treat them as people, not as players. And he just developed relationships. And that's what pitching, being a coach is, developing relationships. Individual relationships.

Honest, honest relationships. Genuine relationships where you can agree to disagree.

When you could have a relationship that you reach that point, then you're exactly where you want to be. So you can have these discussions on different topics. So without a doubt, Mel was just somebody I wanted to emulate.

He gets nothing but praise.

You talk to the guys on the 86 Club, the great staff that they had, Doc Gooden, people like that, and they have nothing but great things to say about Stottlemeier. He was another.

Another guy who was underrated and underappreciated during his career because he played on bad Yankee clubs and they didn't support him offensively. But what he did on the mound, there's no question about that.

Oh, he was a startup. Yeah, he was. Check his numbers. They were outstanding.

He still won 20 games. That's the amazing thing.

Complete games, innings pitched, hits per inning pitched. I mean, he wasn't necessarily a strikeout guy, but, boy, he went deep into the games.

A guy in the Mets minor league system, another guy. As we were talking about those names before, Bob. Bob Apodaca with us tonight on Sports Talk New York. He was projected to be a star. Clint Hurdle.

And you developed a relationship with Clint and he brought you in a couple of places where he was. And you guys just clicked very well together.

Yeah, yeah, he. We were together. Well, I was with him his very first year managing in Fort St. Lucie. He was just fresh out of the playing field.

He relate, tremendous communicator, could communicate. Just outstanding. And we just hit it off. I mean, he would start walking over and start to ask a question. I said, absolutely, I'd make a change.

I just knew what he was going to say. And so we just fed off each other and we were together four. Four different years. Two years that year, a year in Double A, and then two years at aaa.

And then he left the Mets and became heading coach for the Rockies, a minor league heading coach. And then he went. Then he was named the major league hitting coach. And then he got the job in O2 when they let go of Buddy. Buddy Bell.

Right.

In Colorado.

Yeah.

So, I mean, I was back in Port St. Lucie, and so I got the word that he had got the job. I was extremely happy for him. And this is a true story.

And people watch looking at me as a little. You're happy for him, but you seem a little grouchy. I said, well, I know he's going to call me. He says, what do you mean he's going to call you?

He says, he's going to call me and he's going to offer me the Rockies job. Yeah. I said, what's wrong with that? I said, coaching here in Port St. Lucie. I live here in Port St. Lucie, so I sleep in my own bed 90% of the time.

Right. And still the pain of being fired in New York was still there. I mean, the first time you feel that pain that nothing can equal that.

The first time for anything, whether it's a bad, bad. A bad breakup, a bad marriage, getting fired in New York after you were called the guru.

You know, I never understood and it was never, ever explained to me, but I was reluctant to take the job. So he did call me. Son of a bitch called him. And. And he says, bob, I just didn't call you. I said, oh, congratulations, kid.

But he says, bob, I got a question to ask you. I says, don't. Excuse me? I says, don't ask me. He says, I gotta ask you. And so he said. I said, dang. Okay, let's go for it.

Yeah.

So I. I was there for 10 years. And. And it was. It was hard. I won't say it was easy. The hard part was people constantly asking me, well, how.

How can you get your pitchers to pitch it? Altitude. This is. If the other pitchers didn't have to pitch there, it would be really hard. But they got a picture.

Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. Good point.

So it was. It was. It was fun. It was challenging. It was finding the right mix, the right, Right pitchers to pitch there.

Not just good pitchers picking the right pitchers to pitch there. So that was always the dilemma.

Gotcha. Well, Bob, it's been a pleasure. I have so many more things to ask you. If you'd come back, we'd love to have you.

I thank you for taking time out of your Sunday night to spend with us up here in New York. Thank you again. All the best to you. Thank your lovely wife Renee for helping set us up, and we'll talk to you down the road, hopefully.

All right, Bill, good talking to you.

You take care. That's Bob Apodaca, ladies and gentlemen. That will do it for me tonight on SPORTS TALK New York.

I'd like to thank my guests John Matlak and Bob Apodaca, my engineer, Brian Graves, and, of course, you guys for taking the time to join us tonight. I'll see you Next on Sunday, January 26, for more great Sports talk. Till then, be safe and be well. Bill Donahue, wishing you a good evening, folks.

The views expressed in the previous program did not necessarily represent those of the staff, management or owners of wgbb.