Who better to introduce Seville than the person who wrote the guidebook? Paul Stafford has been writing the Seville pages of the Lonely Planet Guide to Andalucia since 2021 and has so much top notch insight to share in this conversation.

He covers the must-see landmarks, areas that many visitors miss (but you shouldn't), top food tips, and regional highlights. This wide-ranging conversation draws together the multi-faceted cultural scene of Seville - home to flamenco, traditional Azulejos, and tapas.

Stay here: Eurostars Torre Sevilla ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐

See this: Real Alcázar of Seville

Do this: Casa de la Memoria Flamenco Show

Eat this: Salmorejo

Buy this: Azulejos (traditional ceramic tiles)

Episode Credits

Host: Daniel Edward

Guest: Paul Stafford

This is Destination Unlocked with me, Daniel Edward.

2

Well, welcome back to

Destination Unlocked.

3

Great to have you here, and today

we are going to the South of Spain.

4

It's an extremely hot part of

the world, but my goodness, it's

5

a gorgeous place to visit and

with the most incredible history.

6

I've been reading a lot about, and

Lucia in the South of Spain recently.

7

Oh my goodness.

8

It's fascinating.

9

I think you're gonna really enjoy

this conversation, which is with

10

the guidebook writer himself.

11

I mean, you couldn't pick a better person

to introduce us to an area than the

12

person who's written the guidebook for it.

13

of The Lonely Planet Guide to Andalucia.

14

Today we're joined by Paul Stafford,

who wrote the Seville chapters of

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the Lonely Planet Guide to Andalucia.

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Enjoy.

17

So, Paul, where are you?

18

I'm looking for us today.

19

Paul Stafford: Today, Daniel, I

am unlocking the city of Seville.

20

Daniel Edward: I think this is

the most intriguing part of Spain.

21

It's a very hot part of Spain, and I do

avoid it at certain times a year because

22

I would burn up like nobody's business.

23

But the history and the culture

of this place is magnificent.

24

Paul Stafford: You've

25

Daniel Edward: just got back from a

research trip for an updated guidebook.

26

What would you say are gonna

be the top highlights that

27

are gonna go into that book?

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Paul Stafford: Well, you know, it's one

of those cities where the top highlights

29

are the most popular highlights.

30

It's one of those things where

you think, oh, the Cathedral, for

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example, is gonna be really busy.

32

I'm gonna have to buy

my ticket in advance.

33

There's gonna be lots of people

there and yet it's still a major

34

highlight because of the size of it.

35

It's the world's biggest

gothic structure for starters.

36

And inside, you can just see this

incredible, vast space that was

37

created purely with this fervour

The constructors, or this is at

38

least the theory behind it, said

that people will think we were mad,

39

when they see what we built here.

40

And it really is just

an incredible structure.

41

And then you have La Giralda,

which is the main tower , which

42

you can climb to the top of.

43

I think it's about 400 steps or

something like that, you're gonna

44

really feel it, in that heat,

especially in the middle of summer.

45

But it's incredible and that is a little

hint that Giralda of what it used to be.

46

It used to be a mosque.

47

That's why I think this structure's

amazing because it represents the

48

fusion of the Spanish Catholic and

Islamic Moorish cultures that is

49

on show throughout Andalusia, but

I don't think really anywhere more,

50

impressively as it is in Seville.

51

Daniel Edward: I think that's

the reason why I find it such an

52

intriguing place, in the same way

that I find Istanbul very intriguing.

53

'cause the Hagia Sofia in Istanbul has

a similar story, the opposite direction.

54

There it used to be a

church, now it's a mosque

55

Paul Stafford: Another magnificent,

huge, airy building as well.

56

Daniel Edward: I don't believe

we build like this anymore.

57

It's a shame in a way.

58

We build tall glass towers

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and that's supposedly

impressive these days.

60

But the grandeur, the splendour

it that they used to build and

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have survived for centuries and

still look just as magnificent as

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the day that they were designed.

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Paul Stafford: true.

64

I don't know what upkeep actually

goes into them behind the scenes,

65

but to think that that huge dome

has managed to stay in place with

66

the original architectural features

that were designed to keep it there.

67

And the cathedral in Seville is the same.

68

It's just this magnificent

monument to faith.

69

And the fact that it's in such

resplendent condition still is

70

probably owes to the fact that.

71

So many people visit it still,

and so they're making quite a

72

bit of money, I suppose, off just

entry fees and things like that.

73

Daniel Edward: But that's

a fairly modern phenomenon.

74

the tourist drive to the south of

Spain for that cultural immersion.

75

Paul Stafford: It started in the

late seventies because under Franco,

76

Spain was locked down for many years.

77

The package holiday phenomenon

is really what opened Spain up.

78

And it was in the Costa del Sol,

mainly between Malaga and Marbella,

79

that people started discovering Spain.

80

And from the beaches that were the

main draw, they then started venturing

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in land and saw that Pueblo Blancos,

their little white towns and villages

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that are nestled in these mountains.

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And then they went a little further in

and they discovered cities like Seville

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and Cordoba, and Granada of course.

85

You still see people are going

for package holidays, but the vast

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majority of visitors to Andalusia

are now going for those city breaks.

87

Daniel Edward: Right.

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The city break has overtaken the beach

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Paul Stafford: Yeah, I'd, I'd, say so.

90

Daniel Edward: It is not

all that close to the beach.

91

For people who haven't

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been to the area or haven't looked

at it on a map, it, you're still a

93

good hour and a half from the beach.

94

Paul Stafford: Yeah.

95

If you were to go to Matalascanas, which

I would say is probably the closest beach,

96

you'd probably be looking at about a

50 minute drive on a good day, maybe a

97

little bit longer, but it's not too bad.

98

But Matalascanas for that

reason, is a little bit like a,

99

Past its best resort, I would say.

100

And it's primarily domestic

tourism that feeds Matalascanas.

101

Not really a beach destination, Seville.

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And it's one of the reasons why it's so

hot, because it's kind of on the plains.

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But then north of that you've got the

Sierra Morena, which hems in the city.

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And Cordoba is even hotter.

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It's the hottest city in Europe.

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They just get these little nests of

heat that doesn't really dissipate.

107

Daniel Edward: Oh my gosh.

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I call that prickly heat.

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'cause it, it,

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to actually hit you like pins.

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Paul Stafford: Yeah, you feel it.

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And one of the things about that part

of Spain as well is you'd expect the

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heat to be at its height at around 2:00

PM like it is in the UK or whatever.

114

It just keeps getting hotter until

about five or 6:00 PM which is why

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people don't have dinner until eight.

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Restaurants don't even

open until about 8:00 PM

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Daniel Edward: oh my gosh.

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I'd be starving.

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Paul Stafford: The biggest

meal of the day is lunch.

120

It's kind of almost expecting the

worst of the heat to be coming soon

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people will head to the restaurant at

maybe 2:00 PM and then that's the big

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meal that you take your time over.

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It's a long, slow meal.

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And then it's the little often tapas

type dining that you'll get in the

125

evening where, you might tapear, which

is to go from one bar to another and

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have a little tapas in each place.

127

Sadly, Seville isn't one of

the cities anymore that offers

128

the free tapa with every drink.

129

That's kind of a dying thing,

although you can still find it

130

in places like Granada and Jaen.

131

But in Seville you tend to buy

the tapas that you'll have.

132

Daniel Edward: We are gonna get

more into food in a little bit.

133

How can we not?

134

But just to cover off some of the other

architectural highlights that you've

135

really gotta see if you are visiting

Seville, a place which struck me the most,

136

I just think it's the most incredibly

gorgeous scene, is the Plaza de Espana.

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Paul Stafford: Yes.

138

Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So the Plaza de Espana is a more

modern construct, the style, I

141

guess you would call it neo mudejar.

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Mudejar, is the fusion of Spanish

and Moorish architectural styles.

143

It's a kind of a post reconquista,

style of architecture.

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So the Reconquista was when the Catholic

monarchs were retaking parts of Spain

145

that were under Moorish control.

146

So I think it was 1248 was

when Seville fell back into.

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Spanish hands.

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It wasn't until the late 1400s that

Granada was returned to Spanish control.

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But Seville fell fairly early.

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But instead of driving out all of

the Islamic artisans and things

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like that, they would employ

them to work on the now Catholic

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palaces that they wanted to build.

153

And so you had this sensibility, this

geometric precision that a lot of the

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architects in the Moorish world had,

and they would be fused with that

155

kind of fervent Catholic sensibility.

156

And you'd have these Mudejar styles.

157

So the Plaza de Espana was

actually built for the World

158

Expo in like 1928 or 29, I think.

159

Just before the.

160

Wall Street crash.

161

So it was a really

unfortunate time for them.

162

But it was this beautiful bastion of

the modernist style that was going on

163

and then this Mudejar sensibility and

it, it's just, it's vast, isn't it?

164

It's this kind of C shaped building

165

Daniel Edward: I love water that's

been integrated into the design too.

166

Paul Stafford: is like a capital

D-shaped canal, if you will,

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almost a Venice like canal.

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And you can still hire a

little rowboat and go for a

169

little paddle out on the water.

170

I don't know if this was the case for

you when you visited Daniel, but, you'll

171

often get flamenco performers, who will

just post up and do free shows for people,

172

so that it is filled with this energy,

and it's right on the edge of Parque

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Maria Louisa, which is this beautiful

big green space that, especially in

174

the summer when it's really hot, feels

so much cooler, like a good 10 degrees

175

cooler when you walk into that area.

176

It's a lovely place.

177

I often go there in the afternoon

just to get away from the heat,

178

but to be outside as well.

179

I lived there through the summer, so a

great time to visit if you want quieter

180

streets, because very few people go.

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The prices are very, very low.

182

So as long as you set your day up,

you can avoid the hottest part.

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But inside the buildings, it

does feel very cloying if you

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don't have air conditioning.

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Daniel Edward: That's a really

interesting and almost intuitively

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backwards tip because everybody would

think, ah, summer will be peak season,

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so hot, it's gonna be crowded, get away.

188

Paul Stafford: Yeah.

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Daniel Edward: And it's not that.

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Paul Stafford: That's when

everyone is actually at the beach.

191

So it's the one time of the year where

you probably find more people at the

192

beach than you would do in the cities.

193

Daniel Edward: That's a genius tip.

194

Oh, like

195

Paul Stafford: And it's genuinely

significantly cheaper; places that

196

you'd be paying maybe a hundred and

50 to 200 euros for in any other part

197

of the year, you'll probably get for

maybe 50 to a hundred euros instead.

198

Daniel Edward: That's a very good deal.

199

Where else would you

suggest for highlight?

200

Paul Stafford: If you don't

go to the cathedral, you

201

must go to the Real Alcazar.

202

It's right next to it.

203

So they basically face one another.

204

It's this sprawling set of palaces

essentially that, aside from the

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Alhambra in Granada, the pinnacle of

this Mudejar architecture, but also

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you've got the architecture that was

created during the Moorish rule as well.

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So it was originally created, as a home

really for the rulers of Moorish Spain.

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And, This set of palaces is really,

for me, an architectural history of

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many centuries of southern Spain.

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There's some rooms upstairs that

are used by the royal family still,

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and when they're not in residence,

you can visit those as well.

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Daniel Edward: The Spanish royal

family is an interesting one.

213

Both for modern controversies

and also their history.

214

They had a fascinating

relationship with the Pope.

215

It's a very Catholic country with

the exception of the Moorish moments,

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Paul Stafford: Yes.

217

Daniel Edward: it's been the most

fervently Catholic country outside

218

of Italy, and they were given

special dispensation from the

219

Pope to appoint their own bishops.

220

Paul Stafford: Yeah, I imagine there is

still, a very special relationship there.

221

Spain is probably one of the

most open-minded free countries

222

that I've ever visited.

223

But there's still this part of

society that is extraordinarily

224

pious and traditional.

225

And you're starting to see that kind of.

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Bubble up again at the moment.

227

It's really interesting.

228

Something like the Semana Santa

Seville has probably Spain's biggest

229

Semana Santa, which is for the whole

Easter week, the centre of the city

230

is locked down completely and it is

given over to parades and processions.

231

And I was just there actually for

the most recent Semana Santa; a

232

fascinating experience because you just

have tens of thousands of nazarenos,

233

who are these people that wear these

pointed hats, like hoods that look

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slightly sinister if you're not from

that world , and these long robes.

235

And la madruga, which happens on the

morning of Good Friday, it basically

236

starts at midnight and runs all

the way through to 6:00 AM and it's

237

this series of silent processions.

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So you have hundreds of thousands of

people in the centre of Seville, and

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the centre of Seville is wonderful.

240

It's this romantic, beautiful old

city centre that just goes on and on

241

and on, and it's all cobbled streets.

242

There's not a straight street in sight.

243

It's a wonderful place to get

lost, and you just have to

244

find your way out of there.

245

And that's part of the

beauty of exploring the city.

246

But these streets are

absolutely packed with people.

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It is 2:00 AM you're exhausted.

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There's people everywhere.

249

And then suddenly you'll hit the parade

route and it'll just be absolute silence.

250

All of these people just lining the road

whilst all of the Nazarenos with their

251

hoods are slowly walking with these big,

big candles, huge candles that are about

252

five foot tall, and they're very thick

and they slowly burn, and you'll just

253

get a saeta, which can either be a little

song or a prayer from a balcony that

254

will pierce the silence of these shuffling

footsteps or maybe a clarinet or something

255

like that, that will just do this brief

flourish for a moment, and then it's gone.

256

And that almost underlines the silence.

257

When that dies away again, the

silence feels more profound.

258

Everybody is so locked in,

in that moment to this very

259

historic, very traditional thing.

260

You really feel the weight of

Catholicism and what it means to

261

a lot of people still in Seville.

262

Daniel Edward: It does sound very moving.

263

Paul Stafford: Yeah, it really is.

264

Daniel Edward: Are there other

festivals during the year that

265

are a good one to put in the diary

that maybe don't exist elsewhere?

266

Paul Stafford: Sticking with April,

two weeks after Easter Sunday, you

267

have the Feria de Abril, which is this

big festival in Seville specifically.

268

That always comes two weeks after Easter,

and for a week again, you have horse

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parades, you have people dressing up.

270

It's a wonderful time to see the

traditional flamenco dresses they all

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go to this big ground to the south

of Seville where there's a big fair,

272

and lots and lots of little tents.

273

And each tent is usually

run by a brotherhood.

274

Uh, They're called, Hermandades,

which are like these different

275

religious brotherhoods.

276

They're out in force and they have

different colours and everything

277

in Semana Santa, and then they

have their own little place.

278

each tent will have, drinking and

merriment and dancing and singing.

279

A lot of dancing actually.

280

especially if you're invited in

as an outsider, which can often

281

happen if you just wander around.

282

You could end up just being in

one tent rather than wandering

283

around for the entire evening.

284

And it can be a really great time.

285

And then another one, is the uh, Bienal

de Flamenco, and that usually lasts for

286

about a month, in September and October.

287

usually, and it is this huge flamenco

festival that takes over the whole city.

288

It's the biggest flamenco festival

that I know of in the world.

289

And flamenco is such a wonderful art form.

290

It's really complex.

291

There's so many elements to it, from the

palmas, which is the rhythmic clapping

292

to the dance, to the colourful dresses.

293

The guitar.

294

I would hazard a guess to say that

Andalucia has the world's highest

295

concentration of accomplished guitarists

everybody seems to be a virtuoso

296

whenever you go to an event and you just

hear that incredibly complex form of

297

guitar; finger picked, often acoustic.

298

It's just an incredible thing to

sit back and let it wash over you,

299

Daniel Edward: I love the

sound of flamenco guitar.

300

I want to get a closeup of their fingers

to see what they're really doing, but

301

it's as they're doing everything twice.

302

With two separate fingers.

303

One finger is a quarter beat just behind.

304

Paul Stafford: Yeah.

305

And, they're also often hammering out a

beat with the palm of their hand, so you

306

do have a raking motion, which will give

you that ing, but then also the finger

307

picking is going on, on the side of that.

308

it really can often sound like two

guitars being played at once, but

309

also with percussion, and that's

just one very accomplished player

310

doing all of that in one go.

311

I've tried myself to learn

it and it's beyond me.

312

I genuinely cannot get all

of that going in one go.

313

Daniel Edward: It's a lot to do.

314

How as a tourist do you know?

315

Which show to try and get to.

316

What's gonna be a ripoff

tourist option and what's gonna

317

be something more authentic.

318

Paul Stafford: Oh, that's

a really good question.

319

I've been to a lot of different

flamenco performances over time, and

320

one thing that I would say is pretty

true of all of them is that they're

321

always really talented performers.

322

So you will get a great show.

323

I mean, I've cried a flamenco performance

before, they can be incredibly moving.

324

Casa de la Memoria is one

where you sit and you watch.

325

And you're just present and you're silent.

326

You're not allowed to take

photos, you're not allowed to

327

watch it through your phone.

328

You're just there and you're present.

329

And it just elevates the performances.

330

So I'd say any place where phones are

prohibited, cameras are prohibited,

331

and there's no food or drink involved,

those moments are always gonna

332

be more impressive than the ones

where they're dinner and a show.

333

And there's a lot of events

where it's a dinner and a show.

334

I attended one just the other

week actually in Cordoba.

335

And you spend half of the performance

just trying to see past waiters.

336

They're rushing around trying to get

everybody their food, and there's

337

like the sound of people eating and

no one's really paying attention.

338

And, you know, then there's someone

leaning over your table trying to

339

get a video, not paying any attention

to the fact that you're just trying

340

to drink in this performance.

341

me, those feel trashier in some way

than the ones that are just about that

342

performance and you're just supposed to

be there in the moment experiencing it.

343

Daniel Edward: Talking of food though,

what should people keep an eye out for?

344

Is there still a Moorish influence

in the food as there is in the

345

architecture, or the food quite

similar to the rest of Spain?

346

Paul Stafford: I would say

the food traditions of Spain,

347

vary wildly from area to area.

348

Andalusia is traditionally the most

rural of the provinces of Spain.

349

Bull fighting is also a big part of the

culture, especially in the south of Spain.

350

Still holds on, greater

than it did anywhere else.

351

And so some of the dishes that come

out of the region are born in that

352

kind of era of like bull fighting

and then eating beef afterwards.

353

So, one dish that you might come across

that is everywhere is Rabo de Toro,

354

which is like a slow cooked oxtail stew,

355

Wherever you stand on bull fighting,

and I'm personally against it as a

356

pastime that should be left in the

past, but there's a lot of tavernas

357

and tapas bars around the bull ring in

Seville that do that dish very well.

358

So if you are a foodie and you can

separate the genesis of that dish from

359

the actual tasting of it, then you

can enjoy the best Rabo de Toro in

360

those tapas bars around the bull ring.

361

And then you have solomillo al whisky,

which is pork medallions in a broth

362

featuring, they say it's whiskey,

but it's more like a sherry brandy,

363

and then you've got lemon and garlic.

364

It's a really rich stew.

365

If you're just wanting a light

breakfast in Andalusia, the main

366

thing to have is just a simple pan

con tomate, you just get a mollete.

367

Which is like a kind of special

type of bread that is cut in half.

368

You toast it, you put on a load of tomato,

you drizzle it with the most amazing olive

369

oil, a little bit of salt, and that's it.

370

A really simple breakfast that

everybody has in Andalusia.

371

My favourite thing, is boquerones.

372

You can get 'em fried, but I prefer

them, in vinagre, which is like a kind

373

of vinegary, oily thing that they're

just immersed in and they're delicious.

374

And then salmorejo is probably the

big thing that I would recommend.

375

It's a bit like gazpacho.

376

Tomato and garlic.

377

Like a soup, but a cold soup.

378

And it's absolutely delicious.

379

It's usually mixed with a

bit of olive oil as well.

380

And it's usually topped

with boiled egg and jamon.

381

You can ask for either or both of those

toppings to be taken away, and that's how

382

you make it either vegetarian or vegan.

383

It's an amazing thing to have for

lunch, sometimes alongside a tortilla

384

de patatas or something like that.

385

And that's the thing that I

probably eat the most when I'm

386

in Spain 'cause I'm a vegetarian.

387

I've had my life where I ate all of

those other dishes and I still have the

388

memory of those, but these days I tend

to stick with , the less meat based

389

Daniel Edward: Times have changed.

390

Paul Stafford: It is hard being in

Spain, or France for that matter,

391

and being vegetarian or vegan.

392

It really is

393

It's tricky.

394

Daniel Edward: So how did you

first come to Seville and get

395

to love Andalucia as an area?

396

Paul Stafford: I was introduced

through a friend when I was growing up.

397

His family were partly from

Andalucia, from Malaga.

398

We grew up in a little town in

northern England called Clitheroe, but

399

they would frequently visit Malaga.

400

And one year they took me, and that

was my first experience of Spain.

401

We flew into Madrid and then we went

all the way down through southern Spain

402

and arrived through the mountains when

suddenly, Andalucia becomes green and

403

the landscape is phenomenally beautiful.

404

And then we arrived in Malaga and I

was a convert pretty much immediately.

405

I ended up in Seville for the first time

when I did a TEFL course or a TSOL course,

406

I guess is what you would call it now.

407

Just after I finished university as

like a kind of backup if I wanted

408

to travel and I wanted to make

some money, it was always this kind

409

of thing that I had in my pocket.

410

I could bring this qualification

out and I chose to do it in Seville.

411

And I lived in the centre of the

city and it was a wonderful time.

412

it was really good.

413

And that's always been my go-to place now.

414

Daniel Edward: And so how did you

then transition from going around

415

travelling, teaching, to then travel

writing and, writing guidebooks to

416

help other people explore the places?

417

Paul Stafford: So I actually never got

to use that teaching qualification sadly.

418

I ended up going to South Korea

randomly, 'cause I wanted to be an actor.

419

That was my primary goal.

420

And somehow, I kind of got into

acting in South Korea and just

421

ended up doing that for three years.

422

I came back to the UK and ended up

at a film school as a screenwriter.

423

That was in London and it was

extraordinarily expensive to

424

just be a poor student in London.

425

so I started finding other ways

to make ends meet and all of that

426

travel, all of that time overseas.

427

It just lent itself to a different form

of writing, which was travel writing.

428

And I submitted a few articles for

places and I ended up making money from

429

that and as I realised, gradually and

painfully acting and, screenwriting

430

weren't particularly lucrative,

especially somebody with only limited

431

experience, I just got more and more

into the travel writing side of things.

432

And then that just became a lifestyle.

433

It started taking up all of my time and

I just realised, I think I'm a travel

434

writer now and I'm not an actor anymore.

435

Daniel Edward: organically

evolved, which the best things do.

436

Paul Stafford: Yeah, absolutely.

437

Daniel Edward: On your guidebook work,

you have covered a huge spread of places.

438

Some writers will exclusively focus

on one area, some will pick a region,

439

you've been able to travel the globe.

440

It's amazing.

441

Paul Stafford: Yeah, I guess the early

formative years of just travelling around,

442

ended up living in a number of places.

443

I lived in Mexico for a

year as part of my degree.

444

I went to India for five months

after that, and then South

445

Korea, for the acting as you do.

446

so it just happened that I had

a bunch of different places

447

that I knew really, really well.

448

My uncle for a long time, was the

lead photographer for Visit Scotland.

449

So I had links in Scotland as well.

450

So I had all of these areas that I

knew pretty well and the best thing

451

you can do usually is find a place that

no one else really knows very well.

452

So I didn't write about

Spain for a long, long time.

453

I didn't write about Scotland

for a long, long time.

454

I've been doing it about 14 years now.

455

But I started off writing about a

place like, South Korea that I knew

456

really well but weren't well covered.

457

Like England for example, the majority

of travel writers live in England.

458

It's a very tough to get is writing

about England, because there's just so

459

many people that have that experience

that are adept about it and wonderful

460

writers and also have the links.

461

But luckily in about 2021, I managed

to get my first guidebook in Andalusia.

462

And it was again, based on the fact that I

knew Seville well and I guess nobody else

463

that had applied knew Seville in that way.

464

So I was really lucky to just get my foot

in the door and I've been back every year,

465

for the last five years now, and spent

maybe a month a time it's been wonderful.

466

Daniel Edward: For people who are

14 years behind you and thinking

467

they love the sound of this,

they do go on travels themselves.

468

Maybe they have lived abroad

already for six months or so.

469

For people who are starting out,

should they be looking on job lists

470

for people advertising that somebody

is looking for a guidebook writer in

471

a traditional sort of job advert way?

472

Or do they go about it in a different way?

473

Paul Stafford: So I think the guidebooks

come a little bit later if you've got a

474

bit of a body of work already built up.

475

So, the best way to build a

portfolio, I think is to pitch

476

ideas to editors about places that

fewer people have probably been to.

477

Or if you have an amazing, unusual angle

on something that is well known, then you

478

can go about it like that and just start

to kind of get one or two commissions here

479

or there, because that'll really help sell

you as an authority figure on the area.

480

And I don't actually like using that

term, because I'm not an authority at all.

481

When I go out, I'm still

there as a student in a way.

482

I still wanna learn everything I

can, and I never like to think that

483

I have this authority over an area

or an expertise because there's

484

always something out there, and

this is the beauty of travel for me.

485

There's always something out there

that will confound you, that will

486

surprise you that you haven't

experienced or explored yet.

487

be fascinated in the world.

488

seek out the human stories.

489

I think with AI these days, AI is

incredibly adept at taking information

490

that is factual and condensing it.

491

So those types of articles, more

and more, you're seeing, they're

492

probably not written by humans in

various outlets, well known outlets.

493

And I think that trend

is only gonna continue.

494

But what you can write is

your interest in the world.

495

That's something that's

bespoke, it's unique.

496

Start with something that you would do.

497

That you would happily pay for.

498

That's how I did it, what would I pay

for and how do I get paid to write

499

about the thing I would happily pay for?

500

And then find the human story behind

it because it's really the human

501

stories that move us and are unique.

502

Is there something on the fringes

of flamenco that is really unusual

503

and is breaking from tradition?

504

That kind of thing is always amazing.

505

Or what's a, type of food or an ingredient

that is making its way slowly back

506

onto people's tables and who is growing

that and why are they growing it?

507

Is there a story behind that that

might be about climate change and

508

now suddenly this ingredient that

wasn't able to be grown in the hills

509

of the Alpujarras is now thriving.

510

Little stories like that will

really help sell your articles.

511

And then from there, you build up

this fascination and understanding of

512

that world, and then you can write the

guidebooks because you've gone into

513

that area with such depth and thought

about it in a way that not everybody

514

ordinarily would think about it.

515

I always say that I live in Birmingham,

but I'm probably one of the worst

516

advocates for Birmingham in a

way because I've got my patterns.

517

So I go to the restaurants that I

love, and I tend not to go beyond

518

that because I love these places,

these five places, and I know that

519

they're always going to be really good.

520

That Barber Institute for Art over there?

521

I could go today, but I'm gonna be here

tomorrow, so I'll just do it tomorrow.

522

And now it's closed for

repairs, so I can't go.

523

Daniel Edward: We don't appreciate

what we've got so close to us

524

because it's so available to us we

become a little bit blind to it.

525

The story comes to me so much

easier when I'm somewhere where

526

I'm a little bit less familiar.

527

It just jumps out at me.

528

Oh, that's odd.

529

Or that struck me.

530

Oh, I wasn't expecting that.

531

But when I'm walking

around at home, I'm blase.

532

You don't realise that actually

there is still a story in that.

533

Paul Stafford: Absolutely.

534

you just have to find something

that triggers your wonder and

535

heightens your senses because

it's something that's unfamiliar.

536

Another reason I love to go, in April

to Seville is because you have the

537

Azahar, which is the blossoming of the

orange trees, and there's this beautiful

538

syrupy scent that fills the air for

about a month, of this orange blossom.

539

it just adds this really rich, sensory

experience to the city that not every

540

city will be able to provide you with.

541

Daniel Edward: I love the

focus on different senses it's

542

not just, what do you see?

543

It's everything coming together and

yes, when you step away from home,

544

all of your senses come alive again.

545

It's a reinvigorating experience.

546

Something that people may not know

about you, is that you're not just

547

writing you also create music.

548

Paul Stafford: Oh, that's true.

549

Yeah.

550

Yeah.

551

Yeah.

552

That's probably why I'm drawn to

flamenco the art form because of that.

553

Just the beautiful sounds

that they managed to create.

554

I myself am less finessed as a musician.

555

I'm an alt rock musician,

with a band called Phwoar

556

P-H-W-O-A-R, which is energy, basically

really good energy on the stage.

557

Just having a great time.

558

A little bit of post-punk

to the songs as well.

559

That's another thing that I

thought, oh, I'll do that on the

560

side 'cause that'll be interesting.

561

And then I realised, oh, I just end up

travelling all the time because of it.

562

So now I have two jobs essentially

that are effectively full-time and

563

both of them involve a lot of travel.

564

I should have done something where

I could stay at home a bit longer.

565

Daniel Edward: Yes.

566

At least you can sort of double

things up occasionally, do you try

567

and arrange your tours for places that

you're interested to then write about?

568

Paul Stafford: Absolutely.

569

I'm actually doing a separate

guidebook right now, in England.

570

And part of the reason was I've been

to Bristol because I really wanted

571

to spend more time in Bristol.

572

I'd been to Manchester, I'd been to

Liverpool as part of this, and now I'm

573

gonna be writing about all of them.

574

Experiencing it on a tour so much

different than experiencing it as a

575

visitor who just is there to travel

because you more focused on the

576

food and the music side of things

and it really narrows your focus,

577

but in a really interesting way.

578

And you get to kind of feel what is

that cultural touchstone of the city?

579

It's really fascinating.

580

Daniel Edward: I think having

a focus is very helpful.

581

It connects into the discipline side of

the industry, which I think is overlooked

582

by people who don't work in the industry.

583

It's not just travelling

and going on holiday.

584

It's travelling and going on holiday with

very set purpose, with some quite strict

585

time restraints, definitely strict budget

restraints and knowing that you need

586

to get something out of it at the end.

587

Paul Stafford: absolutely.

588

Daniel Edward: what do you find is

your best way of maintaining discipline

589

on the road when it's just up to you?

590

Paul Stafford: Well, the best way to do it

is just to get up early, not drink late.

591

There is a part of me for a guidebook that

has to research the nightlife scene, but

592

for the most part, I'm up at six, seven

in the morning and I'll not be back to

593

the hotel room until 10 or 11 at night.

594

Often I'm moving quite quickly between

towns and cities, so I'm having to

595

find a way of moving my stuff around

as well, or storing my bag or whatever.

596

So really discipline is

the name of the game.

597

You are working for

15, 16 hours sometimes.

598

Whereas most people who go to Seville

might go, oh, I'll check out this

599

palace and then I'll go to the

cathedral and that's gonna be my day.

600

I'll also have to see three other

churches and a museum and then try

601

maybe a tapas at three different

restaurants as well in between.

602

And try basically cramming

as much as you can.

603

And it really is extraordinarily

hard work, but it's the kind

604

of work where at the end of the

day, you feel more energised and

605

invigorated by it than exhausted.

606

One of the things that I love about

travel when I'm just a traveller is

607

the openness, you know, you leave

your schedule open to be surprised

608

by something that you discover there.

609

As a travel writer, especially

as a guidebook researcher,

610

I don't get that luxury.

611

I have to do this at this time, this

at this time, this at this time, and

612

it has to be done otherwise I'm not

gonna see everything and therefore

613

I'm not able to write about it.

614

Daniel Edward: If people want to find

your work, whether it's your writing or

615

indeed your music, where can they find it?

616

Paul Stafford: I would go to Paul R.

617

Stafford, that's all one

word, dot com Paul R.

618

Stafford.

619

That's my kind of main source

of travel writing stuff.

620

Or phwoar band.com,

621

which is for the music side of things.

622

And we're phwoar band on all the socials.

623

And I'm Paul R Stafford

on all the socials.

624

So whichever interests you, you can

follow me on, either both of those.

625

Daniel Edward: Fantastic.

626

Back to Andalucia, I am guessing given the

amount of time that you've spent there,

627

you are now pretty proficient in Spanish.

628

Paul Stafford: Funnily enough, I wasn't

very good the first time I was there.

629

And then I went to Mexico and I

learned Spanish when I was in Mexico.

630

So I just sound like I'm from

Latin America, via Britain.

631

Of course,

632

Daniel Edward: If you can't speak

Spanish, and you're visiting Seville

633

are you gonna be able to get by?

634

Paul Stafford: Yeah, it's quite

an international city these days.

635

There's been tourists there for

many, many years and so it, there's

636

definitely a good proficiency in English.

637

For me, one of the most important things

whenever I visit anywhere, if I speak the

638

language or not, is to learn a couple of

choice local phrases that help, not just

639

as an icebreaker with locals, but it kind

of helps tune you into the local language.

640

So I've got two really useful phrases

for you and for anybody visiting, not

641

just Seville, but, Andalucia in general.

642

So, an example, of maybe a

utilitarian phrase would be pon me.

643

So there's lots of ways for

asking for something in a

644

store or restaurant in Spain.

645

You might typically learn damme, which

is give me, or if you are a little bit

646

deeper into learning the language, you

might say me gustaria, which is I would

647

like, but in Andalusia, it's pon Me,

which is literally translated to put me.

648

But it really means give me, so, pon

me una cana por favor, uh, pon me una

649

cana would be, give me a beer, please.

650

and if you want to be a little bit

more colloquial, you can say Pofa.

651

Instead of poor fa.

652

So that's another way of saying please,

but in a more casual environment, and

653

it's actually used much more widely.

654

Like, I'll use por far

in Mexico, for example.

655

And if you wanna get right into the

weeds of Andalusian slang, uh, it's

656

ar favor, which is A-R-F-A-V-O.

657

Uh, and that's kind of

like, do me a favour.

658

I think it derives from

the phrase Avo, uh, AVO.

659

So you could say, AVO.

660

And that would be a really

andalusian way of saying, give

661

me a beer, or I'd like a beer.

662

it sounds almost like, give me

a beer is a bit direct, but it,

663

that's how the Spanish works.

664

It's not rude at all.

665

It's just the usual way of using it.

666

A really useful phrase that you could use

that's very Andalusian is esto flipando

667

in colores it's a really popular saying at

the moment with young people especially.

668

Flipar as a verb actually

means to freak out.

669

It would be understood throughout Spain,

670

literally translated means

I'm freaking out in colours.

671

But it means, I'm blown away by something.

672

So it's something I think would be

really useful for, tourists, because

673

you are constantly encountering

things that will make you flip in

674

Colores, because everything's amazing.

675

Everything's wonderful.

676

So, es in is, a wonderful phrase.

677

Daniel Edward: Talking of

localisms, what about tipping?

678

Is that a done thing?

679

Paul Stafford: Not really.

680

It's not customary to tip in

Andalusia or Spain in general.

681

It's not expected.

682

I always give about 10%.

683

It's readily accepted when you do.

684

Locals would tip for great

service or something like that.

685

If you've ever been in

a Spanish tapas bar.

686

At the busiest point of the day, around

3:00 PM or 9:00 PM you'll see people

687

working with incredible efficiency.

688

It's busy, it's crammed.

689

There's so many things going on.

690

Nobody writes anything

down, they just do it.

691

Very rarely in my entire experience

in Spain has anyone forgotten

692

anything that I've asked for.

693

It's so incredible to watch

and I just always think that

694

deserves, that deserves a tip, man.

695

Then you add to the top of that, the

heat that they're doing that in as well.

696

Genuinely, I would say that the

wait staff in Spain are like

697

professional athletes in some way.

698

The energy that they must put

into doing a shift is incredible.

699

Whilst you can pay for everything on

card these days, a lot of the time

700

they won't accept the tips on card.

701

So it's useful to just have

a little cash handy as well.

702

It's become increasingly hard to

find a free cash machine in Spain.

703

UniCajar, UniCajar, they've

got a green and white logo.

704

U-N-I-C-A-J-A, that bank still for

me is always a free money withdrawal.

705

So look out for their cash machines,

then you should be able to get a

706

little bit of cash out without having

to pay five euros for the, for the

707

of doing

708

Daniel Edward: All that hurts.

709

Paul Stafford: Yeah, five to

10 euros is pretty customary

710

now for most cash machines.

711

Daniel Edward: Wow.

712

Way to sting us.

713

Paul Stafford: Especially if you only

wanna take out like 50 euros or something.

714

It's like, that's

715

10%,

716

Daniel Edward: more.

717

Paul Stafford: Yeah,

718

Daniel Edward: There's somewhere else I

really want to talk about, you've name

719

dropped it, but we've not yet gone there.

720

If you're going to Seville, should you

take a bit of time to go over to Granada?

721

Paul Stafford: Yes, you should.

722

It's about three hours

on a bus or the train.

723

It's one of those funny ones where the

bus and the train take about the same

724

amount of time, because usually if you

go into Granada from Seville, you'll

725

change over and Cordoba I'd say do

it as a two nights away type of trip.

726

Just because Granada, like

Seville, demands time of you

727

and you don't wanna rush it.

728

You really wanna take your time to

explore the different neighbourhoods.

729

You know, one area of Seville that I

haven't mentioned is Triana, which is the

730

traditional kitano area, the Romani area

where they had this old ceramic tradition

731

going on, but also a lot of flamenco.

732

And you wouldn't even get

there if you were just there

733

for a day or two in Seville.

734

Same with Granada.

735

You might head to the Alhambra, but

that takes a full day to do properly.

736

You really need a full

day for the Alhambra.

737

But it's a wonderful place.

738

You wanna be in the Albaicin staying

there, because that's a hill that

739

looks out across a little valley to the

Alhambra, which itself is on a hilltop.

740

And, a sunset with a balcony terrace

with a nice glass of sangria I don't

741

know, a white wine, an Albarino or

something from the north of Spain is

742

one of the most romantic, relaxing,

thrilling evenings that you could

743

possibly have in anywhere in Spain.

744

So Granada is well worth it for that.

745

Daniel Edward: Are there any other

regional highlights that you think

746

people should consider as either a

day trip or a couple of nights if

747

they're basing themselves in Seville?

748

Paul Stafford: We probably

need a whole other podcast for

749

me to go through all of them.

750

I'll restrict it to

kind of day trip stuff.

751

Just out to the west of Seville,

is the old Roman city of Italica.

752

One of the four probably biggest

Roman cities in the Iberian peninsula.

753

It was the birthplace of Trajan who was

one of the great emperors who expanded

754

the Roman Empire to its greatest extent.

755

He was born Seville and then his successor

Hadrian was also born in Italica.

756

And obviously Hadrian is probably

better known to British audiences,

757

especially 'cause he's got his famed

wall, that crosses the north of England.

758

So Italica is a great one.

759

today you go there 'cause it's

got these beautiful mosaic

760

floors that are still in situ.

761

And it's got a wonderful amphitheatre.

762

At one time it could

hold up to 30,000 people.

763

Wonderful place to visit.

764

Also in Santa Ponte as well, they have

the Church of San Isador, which is a great

765

old monastery where the first version

of the Bible in Spanish was translated.

766

San Isidor is the fifth century

saint who was the first to translate

767

the Bible into Latin from Hebrew.

768

So there's a whole history there of

translations of the Bible to make

769

them more accessible to more people.

770

And then, if you go to the other

side of the city, you have Carmona

771

and I like to think of Carmona as

like a Seville in miniature that is

772

often overlooked by a lot of people.

773

There's the necropolis there.

774

So a really regal, or certainly

a wealthy family burial site

775

on the edge of the city.

776

And then you have beautiful

Moorish walls, lots of beautiful

777

old churches, a great museum with

a lot of the old Roman artefacts.

778

Some good restaurants there as well.

779

Daniel Edward: what would you say is

the top thing to see or do in Seville?

780

Paul Stafford: It is too obvious I guess,

but the Real Alcazar is incredible.

781

And another place that you wanna

give at least half a day to.

782

It really is the synthesis of all of the

greatness of Seville as a destination

783

with the Mudejar architecture and history

that is behind it at the beautiful

784

gardens as well are really amazing.

785

I didn't even mention those before, but

they're filled with ponds and peacocks

786

and all sorts of wonderful things.

787

Daniel Edward: What is

a tourist trap to avoid?

788

Paul Stafford: I would say get outside

of the Barrio Des Santa Cruz, which

789

is the neighbourhood that immediately

surrounds the Real Alcazar and

790

the Cathedral, because those are

really tourist trap streets now.

791

and they're kind of famed because

they're like these higgledy

792

piggeldy cobbled alleyways and

you just could get lost in them.

793

But there's so much more of Seville

that is exactly the same as that.

794

So just go north of the cathedral

instead or towards the river you'll

795

have a similar experience and you can

do all of that without the crowds.

796

Daniel Edward: What's your

favourite time of year to visit?

797

Paul Stafford: April is a great

time because you've got the scent,

798

you've got all of these big events.

799

I guess you get the shoulder

season a lot as an answer to this

800

because it's often traditionally

cheaper and there's fewer people.

801

It really is flipped in Seville.

802

They are really great times to visit,

don't get me wrong, but they're also

803

incredibly busy and the prices are at

the highest, usually in the traditional

804

shoulder seasons of spring and autumn.

805

The best time for me if you want

to save money is summer because you

806

get the streets at their quietest.

807

It can be really hot.

808

Yeah.

809

But if you structure days around the

hottest part of the day, then you can

810

have a really great time in Seville,

still, but without the crowds and with

811

really drastically lowered prices.

812

Daniel Edward: Do you have a book

recommendation about the area?

813

Paul Stafford: I'm not gonna plug my

own guidebook, but it is out there,

814

The Lonely Planet Guide to Andalucia.

815

There's a book called, which

means the voice of the Elderly

816

Woman by Elisa Victoria.

817

It's a good book to read,

written by a local person.

818

It's a coming of age tale.

819

Set after the 1992 expo, which for me

is a really interesting time in the

820

history of Seville, where it was a city

that had kind of relied on the currency

821

of its ancient grandeur then decided

that it needed to have a more modern

822

reason to be considered a great city.

823

It had fallen a bit by the wayside,

and the expo was this attempt to bring

824

the world's attention back to Seville.

825

Daniel Edward: It sounds like a great

book, sort of melancholic and nostalgic,

826

but also showcasing real places.

827

And I love the English

translation as well.

828

It's OldLadyVoice, all in one word,

OldLadyVoice by Elisa Victoria.

829

What's a good food or drink

that we should try in Seville?

830

Paul Stafford: I would say salmorejo.

831

It's one that you can have

regardless of your dietary

832

preferences, it's really delicious.

833

It's just a simple dish, tomato,

garlic, olive oil, wonderful.

834

Especially in the summer, it's really,

really nice to have pre it's served cold.

835

Daniel Edward: And if you wanted to

take home an authentic souvenir from

836

Seville, what would suggest we look for?

837

Paul Stafford: Seville is still a

place known for its ceramic tiles.

838

So I mentioned Triana before.

839

This used to be.

840

The kind of centre for all ceramic

tile production in all of Spain.

841

They're known as kos, the tiles

themselves had more of a functional

842

role in that they would line rooms and

patios to keep them cool in the summer.

843

but at some point along the way,

primarily in the 18th century and the

844

17th century, they became decorative.

845

And so they're really

beautiful, ornate tiles.

846

There's one store called Ceramica 1920,

which is right in the heart of Triana.

847

It's right next to the ceramics museum

that fills an old ceramics factory.

848

and that's a really good place

to get some locally made tiles.

849

Daniel Edward: Paul Stafford, travel

writer, and sometime musician, thank you

850

so much for unlocking Seville for us.

851

Paul Stafford: Thanks so

much for having me on.

852

It's been a pleasure.

853

Daniel Edward: Wow, what a

fascinating part of Spain.

854

Thanks again so much to Paul Stafford

there for sharing it with us.

855

Your camera will be full of the most

amazing magazine quality pictures

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after a trip to Seville, and of course,

all of those day trips in the wider.

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And Lucia area.

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Hope you really enjoyed this episode.

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If you did, please share it on with

somebody else who you'd like to go

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travelling with and make sure you're

following the Destination Unlocked

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podcast wherever you're currently

listening, so that you can easily

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find us again next time you want to go

armchair travelling somewhere wonderful.

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I'll see you then.

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Bye-bye.