Journalist and toddler mom Fortesa Latifi joins host Emily Hessney Lynch for a conversation about why we need more nuance in our conversations about mom influencers. In the first half of the show, we discuss how influential influencers truly are (and how much money is involved in the industry), how many mom influencers come from vulnerable backgrounds, and where Fortesa personally draws the line when it comes to the ethics of consuming content featuring kids. We also talk about her writing process for her new book, Like, Follow, Subscribe: Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online, exploring the research process, finding sources, challenging revisions, and more.

In the second half of the show, we explore Fortesa's own experiences with pregnancy (spoiler alert: not everyone experiences the ~pregnancy glow~. Sometimes pregnancy just sucks!) and motherhood so far. We bond over quitting therapy after becoming moms, the crushing weight of the mental load, and the joys of slowing down to experience the world through a toddler's eyes.

Links:

1. Fortesa's book, Like, Follow, Subscribe: Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online, is out on April 7th!
2. Fortesa's story on TV moms and their unorthodox screentime approach
3. For more of Fortesa's work, check out her website or follow her on Instagram or TikTok.
4. Emily's website & Instagram.

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Behind the Glass Gallery podcast is a monthly talk with the current month's BTG Roster. Artists are interviewed about their submissions and we dive deep into their process, inspiration and thought process centralized around their artwork in the Behind the Glass Gallery located in the heart of Downtown Rochester NY.

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The last few days when I've been trying to get her shoes on, she's, like, really pissed at me because she wants to put them on herself. And I'm like, girlfriend, I love you. You're so smart, but, like, you simply do not have the motor skills to, like, put your shoes on.

I'll try to, like, help her and we'll get them on, and then she'll, like, realize that she didn't do it on her own, and she'll get, like, so pissed. And I'm like, dude, like, come on, man.

A lot of big feelings in this era.

Yes.

Hello and welcome to It's A Lot, a podcast about things that are a lot. On this show, we have honest conversations about the highs and lows of social media, parenthood, and more. When it comes to complex topics, online discourse can lack nuance and empathy.

That's why we're leaning into deep conversations, making space for conflicting, messy feelings, and keeping it real about how we feel. We could all use a little more of that sometimes. I'm your host, Emily Hessney lynch, and today I'm excited to be chatting with Fortesa Latifi.

Fortesa is a journalist based in Los Angeles, California. She reports on influencer parents and their children, and her work has been featured in the New York Times, the Washington Post, Teen Vogue, Cosmopolitan, and many others. She's also the author of Like, Follow, Subscribe: Influencer Kids, and the Cost of a Childhood Online, which comes out on April 7th.

We will link to that in the show notes. I was lucky enough to get an early copy and wow, it was so good I could not put it down. I'm really excited to talk about that today.

And Fortesa is also the mom of a toddler who's pretty close in age to my son, so we'll have tons to talk about. I'm really excited to dive in. I have so many questions. So welcome to the show, Fortesa.

Thank you for having me.

Just to start off, I'd love to hear more about your career path and how you got into this niche of reporting on influencer parents and kid influencers.

I mean, I started out as a freelance journalist and, well, I went to grad school for journalism, and then I worked in marketing for like a year, and I was like, my soul hurts. And then I started freelancing, and I really loved freelancing. It was really wonderful.

And as I was freelancing, I kind of had this freedom to explore different topics because I wasn't, like, hemmed in on one beat. And I Started thinking about influencer kids.

And so I kept digging in and kept digging in, and then that, that led to the book deal.

That's amazing. It's such a fascinating niche and I think people are so interested in it. But have you ever had people be, like, skeptical of that beat? Like, oh, who cares about, like, what these people on the internet are doing?

I think some people, especially, like older people are like, what does this matter? And I'm like, well, they're called influencers because they're incredibly influential. And especially family vloggers and mom influencers.

I mean, they're part of a multibillion dollar industry and like, they command so much influence, so much money, they change social norms. I mean, that's something we'll talk about later is the way that the social norms that influencers reflect back to us kind of trickle down to, like, regular people and we end up doing what they're doing. And so I do think it's really important. But, yeah, sometimes I think people are like, well, what's the point here? Like, why is it important? And I'm like, just give me a second, I'll explain.

That was so eye opening in the book, just how much money is involved in this industry. It was wild!

Yeah. No, it is. Well, I mean, even for me, like, I'm like, oh, I've been writing about this for years and it still shocks me.

So I'm curious, for your reporting, like, how much freedom do you have with the stories you pursue? And how do you get like, the spark of an idea and how does that turn into a story?

And then once I did, we were like, let's go. And I think now I've proven to all my editors, and now I'm at Yahoo, that this is something that people are really invested in and that it does matter and it's not silly. And it's not frivolous. I guess you can think it's silly if you want, but it's not frivolous and it is influential.

And so, I mean I've had so much fun and I think I've noticed that the industry, both the media industry and both just like the zeitgeist is kind of coming along with me. Like they're understanding that this is a really important topic.

I know you had an article for Yahoo recently about screen time and TV moms that was so interesting. I hadn't seen that come across my for you pages yet. What was like your own personal take on that? Like how did you find it and how are you feeling about screen time?

As you said, I have a toddler who she's not yet two, she'll be two in a few months. And we are like pretty strict about screen time. But I also think like we're. I'm in a position where I'm able to be strict about screen time. Like I do have help, like my mother and my mother in law help a lot. We have a part time nanny, like whatever. I, I have that privilege.

But I was seeing this stuff on TikTok and Instagram where people were like, the big screen is okay, like the tv and the small screen, like the iPad or the iPhone is not okay. And I was like, okay, this is fascinating. So I just started like looking around, I was like, is this a thing like a TV mom subculture?

And it totally is. Like the people that I talk to for my story, they literally have their TVs on the entire day.

Some of their toddlers have like TVs in their bedrooms and they're like, it's just different from iPads. And I'm like, I wonder if it is. So I asked some experts and they were like, well, it is different than iPads, but that doesn't mean that you should have the TV on all day, you know?

Yeah, that's where that nuance comes in, I guess.

I mean, we lack nuance so much on the internet. And I think people want me to either say screen time is evil or screen time is fine if it's a TV. And I'm like, well, I don't know.

I think I'm a little bit more conservative about screen time than a lot of people that I know. But then again, I live in LA where I think a lot of parents are very wary about screen time.

That makes sense. We do a little bit of screen time in our household and I feel guilty that I read these articles where it's like an 18 month old with her own tablet. And I'm like, okay, I don't feel guilty for watching the Wiggles for 20 minutes.

The majority of US toddlers have their own tablet by the time they're two.

That breaks my brain.

I know, me too. So I'm like, okay. And now I'm trying to get like a little bit chiller on screen time. But yeah, I just think there's a difference between like a little bit of like, you know, high quality programming.

Like it's different to put on like Bluey and it's different to put on like YouTube shorts, you know, but then it's also like, you probably shouldn't have the TV on nine hours a day.

Totally.

So just as a rule.

Yeah, I would be overstimulated by that. As an adult.

Same! I know I'm. And I just didn't grow up in like a TV household and I'm not a TV person. Like, but I do have music on all the time or like I'll have NPR on. So there is like stimulation but not, not the tv.

So for that story and others like, how are you finding people to talk to for that and how do you gain their trust?

I think people are a lot more willing to speak to journalists than you would expect. Like, people want to tell their stories and I think that's just like a human, a human feeling.

And so for that story, I like posted a TikTok and an Instagram reel and I was like, if you're a TV mom, I want to talk to you. Tell me about your thought process, let's chat. And like I had hundreds, hundreds, maybe even a thousand responses.

Like I couldn't even get to all of the people that responded. And I think they, like, people understand about me instinctively that I am an open minded person and that I'm not coming at them.

Like, I'm not like, oh my God, you're evil for using tv. I'm just like, wait, tell me what the thought process is here. Like, let's talk about it. And I think they feel that from me.

And like, I think that's the most important. Well, one of the most important things that you can have as a journalist, like qualities is just being open minded.

Because that's what's interesting about writing a story is like not knowing where it's going to go. Like, if I already knew what the story was, then like, what's the point of writing it?

I think the curiosity is so helpful in driving an interesting story instead of coming in with a biased opinion.

Yeah. And just like, this is what it is. And I think that also shows in my book because I think people can look at the title or look at the topic and they're like, oh, I know that this is going to be totally anti family vlogging and anti mom influencer, and it's not. And I think I feel very strongly that there. That most things in life are pretty gray. You know, things are not black and white.

And in my reporting, that's what I find most fascinating, because if the story about family vlogging was, every single one of these people is evil and immoral and a bad parent, it's just not that interesting. Like, okay, and then what?

Yeah, I really appreciated all the nuance in your book, and I posted in my stories about it on Instagram and asked people, like, what they want to know about this topic, what they're thinking about family vloggers. And everyone was like, how do we make them stop? How do they justify it to themselves? Like, very. Yeah, negative and judgmental.

It's interesting how much the tide has started to turn to be, like, very angry at them.

People are very anti. People are very anti. And I think that also speaks to the fact that there are several huge creators whose entire platform is based off being anti family blogging. And I think, fine, if that's your opinion, that's fine. But, like, I just think the topic is so much more complicated than we give it credit for.

And, like, this is my. This book is my attempt to, like, bring some nuance into it.

But I will say, like, in writing the book, there were moments where I was like, this has crossed a line for me and I cannot understand this. And then there were moments where I was like, I wouldn't make this choice as a parent, but I can feel sympathy for someone who would make it.

But I just think we have to have that sympathy for people and understand where they're coming from, or else nothing's ever going to change.

For sure. Can you share an example of one of the situations from the book where you really sympathized with the parent more?

Well, there were several parents that I talked to who have been, you know, accused of exploitation and of being these terrible parents who cluster their kids all over online.

But, like, a lot of times, family vlogging and mom influencing parents, not all the time, but a lot of times they come from very vulnerable backgrounds. And so several of the mom influencers that I talked to started having kids when they were teenagers, when they were 17 or 18. And one, one parent that I talked to, she had five kids by the time she was 25, and she had only finished high school, she had never gone to college. And so she's talking to me and she's like, yeah, I have these worries about what I'm doing, like, exposing my kids online.

But at the same time, what other way could a single mom of five with only a high school diploma take care of her kids and stay home with them? And I'm like, that is a completely valid. Like, I can understand how you would make that choice.

And if I were in a different circumstance, like, I had my first daughter the month that I turned 31. Like, I was married. I had a master's degree. I had a job. Like, my husband had a job. Like, it was very different.

And so if I started having kids at 18 and I had only gone to high school, and I have very limited choices, and someone offered me this job with incredible financial stability, like, how can I say that I wouldn't consider making that choice?

Yeah, absolutely. There's so much instability right now for a lot of people, and it seems like such a lucrative field. Like, it. There's definitely an allure there.

I mean, especially right now. Right. Like, I think that, like you said, there's so much instability.

Like, the economy is so fraught, and, like, you know, the dollar just doesn't stretch the way it used to. Everything is more expensive than it was before, and these people are making their entire yearly salary off of one brand deal.

And so it's like, how can you look at that and say, oh, I would never even consider it? Like, I don't. I don't think that's honest if people are saying they wouldn't consider it.

Totally. I'm curious, like, for some of the parents in the books, did you worry about the way you presented them? That they would then read the book and feel judged in some way? Like, I'm thinking of the mom who was chanting free boobs, free boobs. About doing, like, the brand deal with melatonin.

Honestly, Shannon, she cracks me up. And I think she'll read that and she'll think it's funny because, like, she did say that, you know, and, like, she's very, like, open about, like, you know, the calculus for her. Like, oh, do I want to do this ad on Melatonin for kids? People are going to accuse me of drugging my kids.

But then again, it's the exact amount of money I'm going to pay for my boob job. Like, I think she's going to read that and think it's funny. But I also think, like, I do, I do feel badly when sources feel that.

When sources feel badly reading my work, which doesn't happen often, but it does make me feel bad. But I also know that my own journalistic integrity and ethics are intact and that like, I never have presented anyone in a way that's dishonest.

And I'm only using their own words and their, you know, and I have the transcripts, I have the recordings. Like, I have everything to like, back everything up. So I'm like, it doesn't make me feel good.

But I also know that, like, I am doing my job and like, my job isn't to make every source feel thrilled about being a source.

Yeah. And you're not writing in a very sensationalist way. I don't think you're trying to like, twist someone's words to prove a point or anything.

I don't think so either. And I think they can understand that. And you know, sometimes we say things and we think, oh, I wish I hadn't said that. But that's just being.

I enjoyed some of the commentary you had throughout too. Like, there was one mom who was trying to justify to herself why she was still sharing her daughter online and like dance videos and stuff.

And you said her logic was like, "twisted to the point of senselessness," which kind of made me laugh. Did you, like, plan to include a lot of commentary throughout or did that just kind of happen as you were writing?

You know, I didn't, I didn't think that that was the plan because I think I went to a very traditional journalism school where it was like, you don't include yourself in the story.

But then as I started writing the book, I just felt that, like, first of all, I sold the book when I was seven months pregnant and I turned in the first draft when I was seven months postpartum. So I was in the thick of it. And as I was writing, I just felt that, like, there was space for my voice and I didn't want to overpower it.

But I did want to include like, I think it shows the nuance of the thinking around the subject and my thinking around the subject because I, you can see me ping ponging back and forth throughout the book and trying to be like, okay, I get it. Oh, this is too far. But, oh, wait, I feel kind of bad. And, you know, I think that that's interesting to include. So I hope everyone else feels that way too.

Yeah, I think it added a lot to the book. You know, it can be so hard to stay neutral and unbiased. And I think just being your real human self and sharing your experiences on the page added a ton to it.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, it was, it was a fun exercise for me because it's not something that I usually do, so.

But I think people like that, like, I think this is like a conversation about the broader trends of journalism, but I think people want to hear who the journalist is. Like, I think gone are the days that we could be like, we are robots who just tell you the news. You know, like, people are like, but what do YOU think?

You know, I think that adds the depth and nuance that people have been wanting, or at least some people. So you create a lot of content yourself too, about your reporting. Where did that come from? Was that like a kind of personal brand decision or what motivates you to create content about your stories?

I think that being a journalist in this day and age, you just kind of have to also double as a content creator, which kind of sucks sometimes, but is also like, really useful. Like, I've found sources through content creation that I never would have found otherwise. And, and I've been able to.

I guess what I think about is like, what is the point of journalism is for stories to be heard. And if stories aren't being heard, like if, if a tree falls in the forest and doesn't make a sound like, you know what I mean?

No one's around to hear it. It. I just think I have to share the stories in the ways that people want to hear them and they want to hear them over Instagram Reels and TikToks and you know, a lot of times then people will go and like read the entire story from there, but they never would have gotten there otherwise. You know, especially younger people, like, they're not like, read. Reading the Washington Post every day. And this is my way of reaching them.

And so it's difficult for me because I purposefully went into print journalism and I did not become a broadcast journalist and I didn't want to be a broadcast journalist. And now I feel like on a very low key level, I have to like, get up and have my ring light and do my makeup and like make videos and whatever.

But it's also like, been really fun and I've been able to connect with an audience that I don't think I would have found otherwise.

It's kind of a cool, interesting challenge. Even though it is daunting or frustrating at times.

It is. I didn't Think I would have to be a content creator. I thought I would just be covering them, you know?

Do you feel like people are forming parasocial relationships with you, too, to some extent?

Oh, my God. Good question. I, like, maybe a little, but I don't think very intensely because I don't share much about my personal life. Like, I. Sometimes I'll post pictures with my daughter, like, where her face isn't showing her from the back or whatever. And people are like, I didn't know you were a mom. Where I was, like, with my husband. And they're like, you're married, you know, So I think I.

If they're forming a parasocial relationship, it's with my work and it's not really with me because, like, they don't really know much about me. I don't really share almost anything about my personal life.

It's good to have some boundaries like that.

It feels really good, you know, I think I used to be a lot more forthcoming on the Internet, and that was, like, fine. And that was a time that I don't regret, but it's. It's not something that I want right now.

Did you, like, erase that part of your old digital footprint, or is it still kind of out there?

No, it's definitely still floating out there. Like, you can read lots of, like, essays that I wrote. I actually started on the Internet as a Tumblr poet, so that was, like, TBT.

But it's also, like, I'm just in this, like, time of, like, more privacy. And I also think there's something really validating about my work standing for itself and not having to, like, use my personal life in that way.

I was curious about your poetry era because I had seen those books out there. Did that, like, does it influence your writing style at all now, or is it just a totally different chapter?

I think when I first got to journalism school, I thought, okay, well, I'm shedding that other writer version of myself, because there's no room for poetry and in journalism. And then I took a class with one of my favorite professors, Fernanda Santos, who's at the 19th now. She's, I think, the executive editor at the 19th.

And she taught me that, like, you can take those principles of fiction writing and bring them into nonfiction writing, and you can, like, make your work sing in that way. And so I have felt A little bit more free to, like, bring those, like, creative moments to journalism.

And I think my best work is when I allow myself to write a little bit and like, let myself really, like, get into it, but it took me a while to get there.

That really brings pieces to life so much. I'm glad you're able to do that more now.

Me too. And I mean, I'm just so grateful for Professor Sanders, who is. Who told me, like, you can do this. You don't have to be a robot, you know, and.

And I thought that the right, the right way to write was like, today it's 64 degrees and da, da, da, da, you know, just like straight up facts. And obviously everything you write is informed by the facts.

But, like, you can say like, what the mood was in the room and you can say, you know, what people were feeling. And I don't know, it's. It's a lot more fun this way.

I'm curious, what were some of the most fun parts of the book to write?

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I just had a blast. Like, it was the hardest thing I've ever done professionally, ever. Like, I turned in my first draft and I was like. Felt like I had run a marathon.

And then it came back with so many edits that I genuinely told my husband I think I made a mistake and I need to, like, return my advance. Like, something has gone very wrong. And then I took a breather, settled down, and got to work. And I just felt so good.

And I think the best part of the book for me was really being able to, like, follow my instincts and my curiosity. Because when you're writing a 2,000 word story, just by function of the way that the space is limited, you can't get into everything.

And not to say that I got into everything in this book, but I feel like I got damn near close because I could just follow every whim that I had and I had the time and the space. Like, I. I have never in my life had the freedom of having almost an entire year, nine months, to focus on one project.

Like, as a journalist, it's like I get like a week, you know, or like maybe a month if I'm really lucky, while I'm working on a bunch of other stories. But, like, oh my God, I just felt like I could, like, breathe. Like, it was so much fun.

That's amazing. I'm glad you got to dive in so deep.

Me too.

So what kind of edits came back that were like, so daunting when you got that?

Well, I mean, my editor, Rebecca, she is a genius. And I think she just really pushed me to be, like, go deeper. Like, I thought I had gone as deep as I could.

And she really pushed me to ask questions and to find sources that I never would have thought about finding otherwise. So she was like, let's find a labor ethicist. Let's find someone who specializes on women in the workforce. Let's find someone.

Find a source who can speak to this. Like, it just hadn't even occurred to me that specialists, like, that even existed and that I could find them and ask them to lend their time to me.

And, like, I just. If you guys could see the first draft of the book, like, no, it was. I'm so glad that it doesn't exist anywhere. Like, it was. I put in a valiant effort, but, like, it wouldn't have been anything like it was without, without my editor.

That's so interesting. I remember, like, encountering points in the chapters where it'd be like, oh, and then I spoke to this person who wrote their entire thesis on the ethics of blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, wow, that's a. That's a really great find.

I know. It's like, some of those people I came across on my own, and some of those people, Rebecca would just, like, tell me, like, I wonder if there is someone like this. And I was like, well, let me take a look. And then I was able to find them, and it was just, like, it was so scary. It was so scary.

And it was literally the most fun I've ever had. Like, I love work. I. I just. I love my work, and I feel really grateful to have it. And, like, I.

And I've written a little bit about this just on, like, substack and stuff, but I think in the postpartum period, like, people say, like, how did you write a book when you were pregnant and freshly postpartum? And I had a terrible pregnancy. I had hyperemesis gravidarum. I was vomiting, like, 10 times a day. I was, like, a disaster.

And then I had, like, a pretty traumatic birth. And then. So postpartum was like. I mean, it's difficult no matter what, but, like, it was postpartum. You know, it was not easy.

And people are like, how did you write a book postpartum? And I'm like, I think it saved my life. Like, I think to have something that I loved so much outside of motherhood to focus on and to feel like a person outside of just, like, a milk machine and someone to rock my Daughter to sleep and to, you know, abide by wake windows and to read all the books. Like, I felt it, like, made me feel alive.

What was that like in the day to day? Like, I know the milk machine time very well.

Yeah.

But I'm curious, like, was there any downtime, like a couple weeks before you started really writing and researching and talking to folks? Were you like, how did it work?

Honestly, I only really took the first two to three weeks postpartum off of the book. And that was my own choice. No one was like pressuring me. In fact, my family and my husband were like, maybe you should take some more time off.

And I was like, but I feel much better when I'm working. And like, luckily I, I work from home. And so it would be very different, I think if I had to leave my daughter at two or three weeks and go to an office. I definitely would not have felt the same that I do now. But I would just wrap her in the baby wrap and I would just work and she would sleep on me.

I mean, you know, they're like lumps in the beginning. And so she would just sleep on me because she refused to sleep in her bassinet until she was nine months old during the day.

I don't know why she would sleep in it at night, but she wouldn't sleep in it during the day. But I would just wrap her and I would just write.

And my mom was like, I think she's soothed by the sound of the keyboard because that's all she heard, like in utero. So. So my mother and mother in law, both incredible women, came and helped a lot, especially up till that first deadline.

And they sat and they held my daughter for hours while she slept and while I worked. And now I look back on it and I'm like, it was, it was such a hard time, but it was so lovely in its own way.

It does sound kind of lovely as we're both in the toddler era. And I'm like, that would never work.

No.

How would that even.

Can you imagine? I like tell my friends who are like freshly postpartum. I'm like, I know it's really hard, but also in a way, it's never going to be easier.

You know, I don't really miss the lump era, but there were things that were definitely easier about it.

You could just like wrap them up and do whatever. Like, it was like crazy. It's crazy to think about now. She would never allow that.

I'm curious just thinking about, like what you learned from writing the book and the ethics of all of this. What do you think the role of, like, the consumer is with all this family vlog influencer kid content? Like, should we all just stop consuming it completely?

I guess it depends what your view is. Like, if your view is this is entirely immoral and wrong on every level, then, like, yeah, I guess the way to handle that is to stop consuming it.

I think if you have a more nuanced view, I think a more nuanced approach is the way to go.

So, like, something that I found during the book, which really kind of like, rocked my world a little bit, was that I asked several family vloggers and mom influencers on the record what content does best for you when it comes to your kids. And they told me content where their kid is sick, sad, or injured does the best. And that really shook me.

And I think it's not that I hadn't suspected that, but I think the fact that they knew it and that. That they were willing to admit it to me really changed the ethics of recording it in my mind.

And so for me, like, I don't think that every family vlogger is evil, but I do think there's, like, a very strange ethical consideration when a child is sick or sad or injured that I'm not comfortable with personally. So if I as a viewer came across content like that, I would just skip it. I wouldn't watch it. And so there is kind of. You have to decide what you're comfortable with and what you're not comfortable with.

It is so hard to wrap my head around, like, thinking about my son having an absolute meltdown over the smallest thing right now, that I would whip my phone out, film him.

Sometimes that is kind of comical because they're so dramatic that I almost want to take a picture, but, like, to then put it on the Internet for everyone to consume, knowing that people will, like, watch it in huge numbers.

especially I think when they're sad or. Or sick, it's very difficult for me to understand.

Like, my daughter had this ear infection a couple weeks ago, and she had this terrible cough, and she had to use, like a. An inhaler, and she had to take antibiotics. And then she got a wrap, whatever. It was like a nightmare.

And I was, like, looking at her and soothing her and trying to get her to take the medication and trying to get her to do the inhaler and trying to make sure that she slept even though she was, like, in pain. And I was just thinking, like, what? How could I take out My phone right now.

And also my daughter's not yet two, But I have so tempted to test this, but I can't do it. But I'm wondering what she would do if she were upset and I took out my phone and was recording her. Like, I think she would knock it out of my hand.

And I'm really curious. You know what I mean? Like, what do you think your child would do?

He loves watching, like, videos of himself on my phone, so I feel like he would try to take the phone and see that. Like, maybe it would be a good distraction, but I don't know. I don't know.

Well, maybe I'll try it, though. I know my daughter's always like, she'll take my phone, and she'll be like, more baby. More baby. Cause she wants to, like, watch videos of herself.

And I'm like, oh, Jesus Christ. Christ. I'm creating an influencer.

The last thing I want to ask before we take a quick break is what your hopes are for, like, if your daughter eventually reads this book someday. Obviously, that's far away. What do you think she'll think of it, though?

Oh, my God. My husband jokes that my daughter's gonna hate me for not putting her on the Internet, and that she's gonna be like, I could have been a YouTube star. I hope that she sees, like, how deeply I love her, because I think it really is in the book.

Like, it's not about her, but it is included and how much I tried to find myself while also giving everything I had to her, because I really. 100% of my effort goes towards her. But I also tried to carve out, like, that workspace for myself.

I hope that if she ever decides to become a mother, that she can also find that for herself and say, okay, I get to be a person outside of being a mother, too.

I love that. That's so important. That definitely hit for me as a mom and came through in the book, so hopefully she'll get that someday too.

Let's take a quick little break, and then we'll talk more about your experiences as a mom after that. So, for Tessa, I know your toddler's pretty close in age to mine.

I'm curious what this chapter of motherhood looks like, what your daughter's into these days.

She is. I mean, I know everyone thinks their kid is the best, but she's the best. She's so funny. She really has, like, a sense of humor, which is really fun.

She's very into books, and she's always been really into Books. So she'll just like, go sit down on the chair in her room and just like, read to herself, which just like, kills me. It's really fun.

It's fun to see their little personalities develop.

It's amazing. It seems like they just have these pre baked personalities that they come out with. And I'm like, where did this come from?

I know. It's kind of a relief to me, though. Like, I noticed this with my nieces and nephews is that like, they are who they have been since the day they were born.

And like, now I look back at my daughter as an infant and I'm like, she was always this way and like, it's kind of a relief because I'm like, oh, there's only so much you can do as a parent, you know, like, they are who they are.

That's so interesting. What traits do you see from, like, her infant days?

She's always been really silly and very social and she's also always been pretty particular. Like, she. Even as a child, even as a, as a small baby, like, she would only sleep in certain circumstances and even now she's still like that.

I'm like, well, I'm like that too, so I don't know. I can't. I can't be like, judgy.

What do you love about having a toddler?

Oh, my God. I think everything is more fun with her, you know, like, everything. I guess some things are definitely harder to do with a toddler. But like, every day it's just like. It's like that old cliche of like, you get to see the world new, you know, like we.

My sister lives down the street from us, and every night we go there for dinner and we walk home and my daughter looks up at the moon and she's like, hello, moon. Hello, moon. And it's just like I don't look up at the moon anymore, you know, Like, I don't. I don't notice things.

Or she'll be like, oh, my God, airplane. And I'm just like, yeah, that is really incredible that an airplane is just flying over us, you know?

That's so sweet. Yeah. We were walking yesterday and saw a hawk and my son was just like, staring up into the sky, amazed.

And they're right. We should be amazed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It helps you pay more attention to so many different things.

Producer note: Hawks are cool.

They really are! What's like, driving up the wall about toddlerhood right now? Because I know it's not easy.

Yeah. My daughter has suddenly started the, like, I'll do it myself stage. And she. But she can't do it, you know?

Like, recently, the last few days, when I've been trying to get her shoes on, she's, like, really pissed at me because she wants to put them on herself. And I'm like, girlfriend, I love you. You're so smart. But, like, you simply do not have the motor skills to, like, put your shoes on.

And then I'll try to, like, help her, and we'll get them on, and then she'll, like, realize that she didn't do it on her own, and she'll get, like, so pissed. And I'm like, dude, like, come on, man.

A lot of big feelings in this era.

Yes. Yeah. And I'm like, okay. It's like, it's not easy. I just have to remind myself, like, she's so little. Like, she's a tiny baby still.

Yeah. My son really likes helping me wash dishes lately, and we were doing that before we came here, but he likes to try to pour water from one cup to another, and it's just everywhere. And I'm getting out, like, a mouth after towel, like, having a heart attack. But, like, he's having the time of his life. So.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's all a lesson in, like, letting go, you know, which is very helpful for me because I'm a very neurotic person, and I, like, have schedules in my mind about everything, and I'm like, this is how it's gonna go. And, like, she doesn't abide by my schedule, you know, and that's probably good for me.

Definitely healthy. If you were gonna do, like, one sponsored post, if you were a mommy vlogger for a day, what would be, like, the perfect sponsored post for you to do?

You know what I love is that I don't know if I have the name right, but the, like, Miss Messy Eater spray, that is, like, the stain spray. It's like, messy mouth or something, and it's like the stain spray, and, like, that's my life.

It's just like the stain spray, like, using it on all her clothes because everything is a mess all the time, and for a while, we were throwing out a lot of clothes, and now I'm like, okay, we need to, like, focus on this and. Or. I love the Tony's box. We're really into the Tony's box.

We don't have one of those yet, but I hear great things, and I've not even heard about that spray, so I'll have to try that.

It's really good.

You've influenced me. Yeah. Yeah.

This episode is brought to you by Mrs. Mounth's Messy Eater Spray!

I wish!

We just like, all the clothes come off to eat anything pretty much. And then we save them.

That's where I'm going to now too. But like when she like goes to the park with our nanny, it's just like, you know, I don't want her like naked at the park and like trying to like she's like cold and whatever. But like, yeah, when she's home, it's like we're stripping for dinner because like everything is a mess.

I'm envious of being able to go to the park because it's still a very cold winter here in Rochester, so we've not been outside much.

Oh my God.

Rough.

I cannot imagine. I like, hate to tell you that it was like 78 degrees yesterday and in LA.

So jealous. Yeah. It's 40 here and we thought it was summer, so. Did a lot of puddle jumping yesterday.

I think about that. Like, we live in la. I grew up in Arizona and I'm like, what do parents do with toddlers when they can't go outside?

Because there's probably like four or five days a year from like rain that we can't go outside and it's like a struggle.

Wow. Four or five.

I know, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It's so rude.

We had some negative 10 days a few weeks ago.

Oh my God.

No, we have a lot of local libraries. Yeah. So we've been going to a lot of libraries. There's a toy library you can check toys out of. They have a slide inside. So we've been going there.

That's really fun. Yeah.

Are there like indoor play places? Like, is that a thing?

Yeah, there are some. We haven't. I, I don't trust some of them with like, they have like Red Flag kind of stuff on their website that I'm like, how are you cleaning things? What do you mean? You're using like a vinegar solution to clean after all these gross kids. But yeah, there are some that I could try.

I really do. Like sometimes I'm like, wow, living in LA is so expensive. And then I'm like, we went to the beach last weekend. Like it's, you know, maybe it's worth it. Yeah.

I'm curious. Like, you mentioned you have a part time nanny. So can you talk a little more about like your childcare situation, how you manage to balance your work and...?

Yeah.

Raising a kid and all that?

I think this is such an important conversation because a lot of times and I talk about this in the

book, like we look at people online and not that I'm a mom influencer, but we look at people online and we think like, like how are they managing to do it all themselves? And it's like the truth is most of the time they're not. And that's okay. Like there's no shame in having help.

But what I think is a shame when it comes to mom influencers and family vloggers is selling this version of yourself that can do it all when secretly you have like multiple nannies behind the scenes. But that spiel over. We have a wonderful part time nanny who comes from 8:30 to 1:30 every Monday through Friday.

And so I'll wake up before that, before my daughter wakes up and I work a little and then I take care of my daughter until our nanny gets here. And then they go out and they go to the park and they go to the library and whatever.

Because like I'm on, like I'm the only one with her, but she's asleep. So I really have like a good amount of time that I've carved out while also having part time childcare.

And then she wakes up around like 3:30 and it's me and her for the rest of the day and I feel like I've kind of nailed it. Like I feel like I have a really ideal situation and obviously a lot of that is like very privileged. And also the privilege of working from home.

Like I have friends who work in offices and can't see their kids for eight or nine hours at a time and like that's really difficult and I feel really lucky.

That is so hard. I can't imagine being like in an office 40 hours a week away from your kid. Like that's rough.

I can't either because I'm freelance as well and we have very limited childcare. We have a part time nanny three days a week, three hours each time. So.

Oh geez. Super. Part time. Yeah.

Yeah. We are banking on good naps and his naps are getting shorter so we're getting anywhere from an hour to three, three hours, which is hard to plan around.

We had three hours the other day and then yesterday we had 45 minutes and I was like what? Do what what do you mean?

Like, are you good?

Yeah.

And sometimes on the shortest naps, they, like, power through to bedtime like it's nothing. And you're like, huh?

I know. It's like, do you need that? Like, what. What's the vibe here, my dude?

They're confusing little things. So I'm curious, like, before you became a mom, is there anything you wish you knew or things that totally shocked you after you became.

Honestly, there's so many things, but I think you cannot understand it until you're in it. Like, my undergraduate degree is in child development. I was a nanny before I became a mom. I worked at a preschool. I have a bunch of nieces and nephews. I worked at a baby company before. Like, I thought I was, like, as ready as one could be. And I think I was.

And then it happened, and I was like, I had no idea what was coming for me. Even with all of that knowledge. I think the crushing weight of the mental load is really something that has shocked me continually. Like, I have a wonderful husband. He's great. I love him. I think he's as equal of a partner as, like, more equal than a lot of women have. And still I am the default parent.

And it is sometimes just crushing to have that weight of, like, trying to figure everything out, trying to keep everything up in the air. And, like, I had no idea what that would feel like before. And I also think I have found myself to be a very obsessive mother.

And I think I'm also just an obsessive person. And I also have unresolved postpartum anxiety, still almost two years later. But, like, I have a really difficult time being away from my daughter at all. I still haven't been away from her overnight. I've never been away from her for more than, like, five hours at a time.

That was not something I expected. Not that I thought I'd be like, jet setting without her, but I thought I'd be, like, you know, a little bit calmer. I'm not. I am.

I feel it physically when she is away from me. Like, I feel like something is wrong in my body. I did not expect that.

It's so interesting. Like, I feel like so much of that is biological wiring for moms and not necessarily all moms. Everyone experiences it differently, but it's so hard.

Yeah. And part of me is like, this is like, totally natural and totally normal. Like, of course I want to be near her all the time.

And then part of me is like, you shouldn't feel sick when she's like, with someone who's, like, a trusted caregiver and, like, just in the neighborhood, like, that's unreasonable, but I just, like, I just didn't know how it would feel. Like, I didn't know how overwhelming both, like, positively and kind of, like, intensely it can be.

What are some of the ways the, like, obsessive tendencies you have that come up with her?

I mean, how do they not, you know, I feel like the second she wakes up, I'm, like, calculating, like, okay, if she woke up a little bit earlier today, that means her nap should be a little bit earlier, which means maybe she'll sleep a little bit longer, but maybe she won't. And if, if, if, you know, it just, like, goes in different directions or. Like.

I think the most obsessive thing is that I just really hate being away from her in any way. And it feels, like, genuinely unsafe to me, which I think is something I need to, like, work on. Like, do you feel that way?

Not really. I feel like I haven't done, I haven't done an overnight away from him either, but I've been out for, like, eight or 10 hours in a day and then, like, missed him and come home and been happy to see him and stuff. And I've worried about him when I'm away, like, oh, is he gonna get the right snacks? Is he going to be able to communicate with the new nanny?

Or things like that. But I don't feel, like, unsafe necessarily.

I think I'm just such an anxious person, like, my husband, like, jokes that all my, like, OCD has just transferred to my daughter. And so I'm just, like, obsessive about her and not as obsessive about other things, but, like, I don't know.

Hopefully it'll get better as she gets older. I don't know. I guess I need to go back to therapy, but who has the time?

I know! I quit therapy because I didn't have the time. So after becoming a mom, it's.

It's, like, it's useful, but it's not so useful that it's, like, worth taking time out of, like, the limited time that I have.

And I was finding, like, it can't fix the broken systems of life in America that I'm complaining about all the time. So.

Right. And it's like, you can, like, talk about the weight of being the default parent and whatever, but it's not going to change it.

Right?

So it's like, I felt like it was just, like, kind of useless.

I do find that, like, the moms ruminate so much more about all the different things there are to worry about. Like, are they getting enough nutrition? Like, they're. Their poop was weird or things like that. And the dads are just, like, totally chill about it.

Like, I'm sure it'll be fine. It'll resolve itself or whatever. I don't know if that's a personality thing, but the moms, I think, definitely focus on that more.

My husband's the same way. He's always like, it'll be fine. I'm like, you always say it'll be fine. He's like, but it is always fine. And I'm like, okay, well, that's true. So, like, I think we could meet in the middle.

Yeah. Maybe there's something you could do to make it fine faster. Like, if we do some research.

Yeah. Yeah, let's. Yeah, let's do some research. Yeah. It's so hard. It's so hard. And my husband and I were together for 10 years before we had a child, and I'm like.

We had, like, a long time to, like, settle into our relationship, and I'm like, wow, I wonder what it's like for other people who just, like, don't have that time, you know? Because at least, like, I love him. I know him. I know that I know how to be his partner. But I'm like, whoa, that would be so intense.

Just, like, jumping right in.

Yeah. We're in a similar timeline. Like, about 10 years together before having kids. We also have three dogs.

I don't know if you have any pets, but, like, three dogs on top of a toddler is a lot I cannot imagine.

I've, like, I've read a lot about, like, postpartum pet aversion. Did you have that?

Not exactly, but I definitely don't. Like, I was in the hospital, like, getting stitches after giving birth and thinking about one of my dogs and how much I wanted to see her.

And then, like, when we came home and the baby just kind of started consuming everything, it wasn't the same with the dogs at all. We have all pug mixes, and the littlest one I thought looked different when we came home. I was like, his jowls look, like, meaner.

He looks like more of an animal. Like, I was a little scared he was gonna hurt the baby, and he's obsessed with the baby, and he's his best friend, but, like, there was part of my brain that was like, he's a threat.

I mean, and that's normal, right? Biologically, that's like, you're supposed to be, like, looking out for threats.

Weird. I know. I at least have been getting questions already if we're gonna have a second kid. And people are like, there's such a push that everyone wants you to have more and more kids, like, immediately. You don't have to talk about your family planning or everything. But are you getting, like, a push for that at all? Like, and how. How do you respond when people are asking?

I think it was like, immediately, like, a few months postpartum, like three or four months. They're like, so when are you having another one? I'm like, are you insane?

They just got here!

I am in it still. I think I feel like people are, like, really well intentioned generally.

And, like, I've just been able to kind of, like, brush it off and be like, you know, we'll see, like, whatever. But, like, it is, is. It is funny. And like, my plan, our plan is to have two and not have more than that for several reasons.

But one, the key one being how unwell I am when I'm pregnant. And so I think they're even now. People are like, but you're not gonna have three or you're not gonna. Like, I'm one of five. And they're like, you're not gonna have as. And I'm like, are you? No.

What, in this economy?! and when you felt that badly?!

in this economy! Yeah. No. I mean, I was like, not okay when I was pregnant. Like, I know some people, like, my older sisters, they're so annoying.

They, like, love being pregnant and they're like, glowy and like, whatever. And I'm like, I was genuinely hospitalized several times for, like, dehydration and starvation.

Like, I will not be doing this more than twice in my life. And even twice is, like, pushing it.

Yeah. Are you, like, anxious about doing it again when it was that bad the first time?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Especially because with hyperemesis, there's like a 90% recurrence rate. And so it's like, pretty likely.

I think the good thing about nature is that you kind of forget. Even immediately after I gave birth, I felt. I mean, I didn't feel 100%. I felt a lot better.

Like, I stopped vomiting the second the placenta was out because that's what hyperemesis is tied to, is the placenta. And, like, even a few days later, I was, like, talking to my mom and I was like, it wasn't that bad.

And she was like, you were in the hospital multiple times. Like, you were starving. Like, I ended up weighing less when I gave birth than I did when I got pregnant. That is so crazy. But I forgot.

Like, immediately I forgot. And it's funny because my mom tells this story about my grandmother that she would say if we didn't forget what pregnancy and birth were like, we would never do it again. But we forget, so we do it again.

The hormone ride is just so wild there at the end. Like, my birth was, like, very fast and furious, and my son was a month early, so it was just, like, very shocking all around, and it was hard to process. And then just right back to, like, oh, yeah, that wasn't so bad. Even though it was, like, the most excruciating, insane pain you've ever felt.

Like, immediately afterwards, like, a few months postpartum, I was like, should we just, like, have another baby? My husband was like, what is wrong with you?

I know you spend a lot of time on the internet for your work. I'm curious if there's any, like, parenting tips or hacks, recipes, crafts that you've, like, encountered and tried and loved, or ones that were, like, a total bust.

You know, I'm not really into, like, the. The hacks and stuff. Like, I feel like maybe that's because I write so much about, like, mom influencers and vloggers that I'm just like, this is not. This is not for me. Like, I'm not a mom who's going to, like, set up a perfect craft. Like, I'm just not. You know, like, we're coloring in a coloring book.

Like, we're not. We're not doing that. I think I'm trying to think if there's anything. I don't think there really is. I don't know. Is there anything for you that comes up?

Well, we've had so much snow and ice here. We've, like, frozen little, like, the little people characters in muffin tins, and then he, like, excavates them the next morning. So that can be kind of fun.

Oh, that's cute.

Yeah. Or you can, like, make a little skating rink, and they can slide around on it.

So, okay, so you're like a craft mom.

Not super crafty. Just, like, when it's so cold and boring and I'm going stir crazy, I'm like, what can we do that'll be something different?

Necessity is the need of invention. Right.

This is not, like, a internet hack or anything, but we have not recycled a box for, like, two months, and it's now the coloring box. So it's, like, covered in stickers and we color on it and we just, like, leave it in the kitchen, and anyone can walk by and color on it, and it's fun.

Okay, I'm going to try that. That's really cute. Yeah.

Lazy hack. There you go.

I'm not like a. I. Sometimes I wish I were, like, a crafty mom or, like, I don't know, but I'm just like, let's go outside. Like, you know, whatever.

Yeah. Any other parts of, like, mom life that are bringing you a lot of joy these days?

I think I'll just say that generally I am not, like, the happiest person. Like, at my baseline, like, I've struggled with depression.

I'm very neurotic, I'm anxious, I'm obsessive, and I always have been, but I have never been happier than after giving birth to my daughter. Like, yes, things are hard.

Yes, my life was, like, I guess a lot easier before, but it doesn't really feel easier because, like, for me, the best thing about motherhood, one of the best things has been how much it takes me out of my own brain. Like, because I would just. Sometimes I look back at the time that I had before being a mom, and I'm like, what did I do with all of it?

And I think I just sat there and, like, went like, bananas in my mind. Like, I would just, like, obsess and obsess and ruminate and, like, it wasn't healthy for me.

And what I needed was something to take me out of my brain.

And, like, that's been such a relief that I didn't expect of motherhood, because before I became a mother, I was like, but how am I going to have time to write and read and just, like, think? And, like, I'm a very internal person, and, like, it is sometimes difficult to find time for those things, but generally it's fine.

And also, like, being out in the world physically is such a relief, like, and, like, paying attention to something outside of myself is such a relief, and I didn't expect that.

It's really nice. It's so hard to get out of your head sometimes. And kids really force you out of there.

Yeah. Like, they're like, I need a snack. I want to go on a walk. I need a bath. And I'm like, oh, my God, Thank God I'm not just, like, sitting here thinking about myself anymore. Like, yeah, I don't know. Now I'm just like, oh, my God. All I ever used to do was think about myself, and it was not healthy for me.

Whole new era now with these kids.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. Like, obviously it's difficult, but, like, I tell all my friends who are, like, worried about becoming mothers or who are just becoming mothers, like, I have genuinely never been happier.

That's awesome. What are you excited about as she starts getting older? Like, are there any phases you're looking forward to?

I'm just excited to, like, be able to hang more.

Like, I remember when my niece and nephew, who lived down the street from me, when they got there to be, like, three or four, like, they would just have, like, the funniest little, like, things to say, and they, like, always had these, like, really interesting thoughts. And, like, I want to hear her thoughts, and, like, I want to know what she thinks about things.

And, like, now, like, we hang and she, like, you know, jibber jabbers. And I understand, like, some of it, and, like. But some of it, I'm like, what are you saying? I want to know so bad.

I'm excited for more. More words and more talking, too, because my son is very expressive, but I mostly have no idea what's going on.

And they're so, like, intense about it. Like, my daughter will just be, like, blabbing, but she's like. And, like, I know she's saying something, but I'm like, what is it?

Like, what are you talking about? You know? And, like, I just can't wait to know.

I showed my son a video from, like, four months ago where he was, like, blabbering like that, and he was like, like, like engaging with his past. Like, he understood. And I was like, man, tell me what you were saying.

Yeah, no, it's so funny. Like, even. I don't know if you guys did sign language, but we did, like, some sign language in the beginning.

And, like, even when she could start, like, signing to us a little bit, I was like, oh, my God, this is such a relief to, like, know what you want.

My son was bringing us specific trucks to request specific truck songs, which was very smart and cute. But then he started bringing certain trucks, and he wanted a different song than what the truck actually was, and it got real confusing. Yeah, it's.

They're trying their best. They're so cute. They're so funny. Like, I know it's hard. Like, I'm not trying to, like, sugarcoat.

Like, obviously, it's really hard, and I'm, like, so stressed, but also, like, it's just so fun.

Yeah, they're the best. They're so funny. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat today Fortesa. This was really fun.

Thank you for having me.

This has been a presentation of the Lunchador Podcast Network.