In this episode, Mike explains how specializing in one niche, having personal branding as a top priority, inspecting past solutions, and more can revamp businesses!
For the full show notes, head on over to: https://reflectivemarketing.com/podcast/How-to-Master-Your-Craft-and-Become-Unstoppable-With-Mike-Claudio
Krystal Hobbs 0:04
Welcome to Beyond the Tools, the podcast that helps contractors attract more leads, grow their business, and finally get off the tools. In each episode, you'll discover marketing tactics that work. You'll get actionable insights from other successful contractors, and connect with experts to help you grow. I'm your host, Krystal Hobbs, owner of a social media agency that helps contractors attract and convert more leads. Get ready to take your business to the next level so you can finally enjoy the fruits of your hard labor. Ready, let's go!
Hey, contractors, welcome back to another episode of Beyond the Tools. Today I speak with Mike Claudio. And if you have not heard of Mike, I promise he is not someone you're going to forget. Mike is the CEO and Head Coach at WinRate Consulting. And he's also the founder of a great nonprofit called A Champion's Shoes. Mike's really a business and personal development coach and mentor. He's a sought-after public speaker, Best Selling Author of #TooStrong, host of the Big Stud podcast, and a YouTuber.
So Mike's got a lot going on, but really comes from this interesting background of working in sales for Verizon, then he moved into helping a friend's remodeling company to grow and then switch to roofing and he's had some really incredible success. Now as part of WinRate Consulting, his company, he's helping contractors to grow their business, identify some of those bottlenecks, and be able to get to that next level in their business, which is what we're all about here.
So in our conversation today, we talked about some of those challenges that contractors see when it comes to their sales. We also talk about the kind of pros and cons of niching down but really digging into a lot of what you're probably thinking in terms of you know, not limiting your business or not wanting to get bored. So we really dig into that. And Mike has very strong opinions about your Gmail email address for your company. So you're definitely going to want to check out this episode. So let's go on over to Mike.
Thanks, Mike, so excited to welcome you to Beyond the Tools.
Mike Claudio 2:45
I appreciate you for having me. I love doing interviews like this, this is fun for me.
Krystal Hobbs 2:49
Awesome. So I know you’re a sales and business development guy, you come from a corporate sales background with Verizon, and then you moved into remodeling and roofing. In your experience, what do you think most contractors are missing when it comes to their sales?
Mike Claudio 3:10
That's a good question out the gate. I think consistency and understanding the problems of their target audience. I think a lot of contractors come in trying to sell themselves instead of solving problems. I think as business owners, as a business, is what we are, we're problem solvers. Some people do that with technology, some people do with remodeling, roofing, but when you get really good, what I would say like an excellent or very experienced salesperson, you really truly understand the emotional pain points of your customer base. And there's a lot of content out there. Either you're trying to push themselves or service their product and it will work. You will sell. Then you're kind of more transactional than consultative and I think that's where people start to stagnate. They get stuck. They have an average close rate. They have average price points. They have average profit margins. But when you get really good at understanding and truly starting within the consultative approach of aligning with the problems of your target audience, you get a next-level engagement level, you get a next-level buy-in and trust factor from that audience. And I think it's one of the biggest things a lot of people miss. They lead with themselves. They lead with their product or service as opposed to leading with the most boom, why? Because the most important part is making that customer feel like you truly understand what they're dealing with.
Krystal Hobbs 4:29
Absolutely. And I don't like to warm up, I like to get right to the meat of the interview. So I love that you're happy to dive in there too. So when you're starting with a company and helping them to identify their audience and those pain points, where do you start with that?
Mike Claudio 4:51
So what I'd like to start with if you'd have no idea at all is like go back to your last 20 clients and ask them “Hey, what's the biggest problem we actually solve for you?”, And I think you might actually be surprised of the answers. Because you almost use a kitchen remodeler. It's not that they were tired of their cabinets is that they were tired of their mother-in-law giving them shit about their cabinets. It's not that it was the size of their kitchen, it was the fact they couldn't host their whole family in their kitchen. It's not that they didn't have the island, it's that they couldn't host the neighborhood parties like they wanted to. So what we do for them gives them a solution that actually solves a much different problem than you realize. And so if you can go back to your last 20 clients, ask them what was the biggest problem you solved for them after completing your product. So that'd be number one. I would start there. Go back and figure out like the last 20 clients you have and ask them how did your product or service help them solve their biggest problem or what that product did that has helped them in a way. And most clients, if you did a good job, and they totally want to help you. Most clients want to help good service providers, they just don't know how and so giving them an opportunity to assist in something like that, they typically take advantage of it and they enjoy doing it.
Krystal Hobbs 6:21
That's a really great point. I feel like a lot of business owners, regardless of their industry, don't take the time to ask those kinds of questions and have those in-depth conversations with their customers. So, okay, so once they've identified that pain point, how do they then use that to grow their business?
Mike Claudio 6:49
So there are two primary ways I guess, one would be content creation, it's a big part of my strategy. This was when I was still selling remodels and I was selling roofing. I use a lot of content and content significantly more about helping your audience believe that you understand what they're going through and dealing with, than highlighting for example if this is Claudio’s roofing, your audience doesn't need you to put a bunch of pictures of rooms in your content like they understand what you do. It's how you do, it's why you do, and it's what you do. So there's a formula that I use for content creation, whether it's copywriting, audio, video, whatever copywriting. So not everyone knows what copywriting is. But it is a written format. It's problem, cause, solution, benefit. And the way you word the content, what is the problem that are your clients dealing with? Why are they dealing with it? What are you suggesting they do about it? And what will they get by doing that thing that you suggest? So you just answer those questions like if you were on a piece of paper write down. What is the problem they're dealing with? We'll use the kitchen as an example, they're tired of their family not being a fit into their kitchen together, and they want to host more parties. Why is that happening? Well, they need to take down a wall, and they have data cabinets. What are you suggesting in your Design-Build Kitchen Remodel process? What will they get? The ability to fit their whole family and host the neighborhood parties. So if I answer those questions that my piece of content is, for example, if you're struggling to fit in your whole family in your kitchen, or you're not able to complete or have those parties you want to it's probably because your kitchen is a little bit small, going through our design-build process, and design the kitchen of your dreams. So you can do those things, which makes it really simple, it helps you understand what it can look like. So you can get your whole family in there and throw those neighborhood parties. The problem, cause, solution, and benefit align with somebody in a very deep emotional way. Because if you are just promoting your products just so it could sell, then you aren’t aligned with what's actually to get them to make a decision because people make decisions for two reasons, pain or pleasure, right? They want to get away from pain or they want to get towards pleasure. And so if you can assign that or align with that or be direct about that, the problem they're more likely to choose to go with you because you truly understand what they're dealing with or thinking about. So the content side’s one of it and you can do that in a number of roles. You can use it in prospecting, right? You can from a content perspective, for example, if you're dealing with this, it might be because of this. If you'd like to talk about it, let us know, that's a prospecting message. So let's say a real estate agent, a lot of your clients struggling to hear back from contractors right now to get the work done. They want their home the answer is obviously yes. It's a global issue, right? People don't call people back. So if you do your prospecting right, focusing on the problem, I'm not calling a real estate saying, “Do you need a roofer?” I'm saying, ”Are your clients struggling to find a roofer to support their punch list items when they're going through a closing transaction? Here's our service level expectation, and here's what we do.”
So using that problem, the first mentality, you can create content and prospecting. And then when you're in the home, if you're doing in-home sales, digging into the problems on the front end of the conversation, their fears, their concerns, their problems, you could use the tactic of asking why three times. Well, like, “Why do you wanna get a kitchen to remodel? Why is that important to you? Why is enjoying your space, so important?” Now you found out the real reason why they want to do something because I've used the same example for a while. It is plywood and granite do the same job as a countertop, they both can hold, people go with the granite for a number of reasons, that are beyond the functionality of the countertop. And so if you understand the functionalities they want, because of the problems they want to solve, you just align with them so much better. You connect with them so much better that you're able to build that trust and build that rapport with them that makes them feel like they can trust you with their money and the vision that they have for what they're trying to do.Krystal Hobbs:
That makes sense. Love that.Mike Claudio:
It really comes down to like what product or service you're selling, right? It really comes down to are you a reactive or an elective service provider? Are you plumbing or electricians getting called out when something's going wrong? That's a different kind of approach, then, you are using it as elective sales like a remodeler, a debt company, a pool company, those are elective things as opposed to reactive type services. So it can be a little bit different on either side of that, depending on what type and what the scenario is when you're getting called in, but it can go either way.Krystal Hobbs:
I'm curious, specifically on the content creation side, because obviously, you do a fantastic job with your social media and your content creation. When it comes to contractor businesses, do you see a personal branding approach working or how important are the people behind the business in content creation?Mike Claudio:
It's the number one most important thing. Because ultimately, if you post a bunch of before and after photos, or you post a bunch of pictures of your work, or the product or service that you offer, whatever that might be, consumers are amateurs, they don't know the difference between your finished product and your competitors finished product, they're looking at a pretty picture, right? It doesn't attract them, it doesn't pull them in. People like doing business with people. And so who you are and what you're about and your core values, how you communicate, how you problem solve, and the culture you have within your business and the personalities on your team, and just the way you look and communicate can make somebody feel more comfortable with you. For example, you and the other HVAC company have access to the same subs, the same labor, the same material, the same equipment, the same tools, everything's the same, the only thing that's different is who's doing it and how they go about doing it, right? So if you're highlighting your HVAC texts on your content, somebody is actually calling say, “Hey, can I get John to come out? I really like the way John communicates.” As opposed to like, we've all seen it. I think most people see it like when you go to a customer's house that's never seen you before that doesn't know how you look like and doesn't know what your brand is, to an extent. They kind of crack the door and say is that you? If they've seen you online, they'll throw the door like “Mike, it's so gratifying to meet you.” Like, it's so cool. I get to watch you on your social media. And if you look at it that way, like if you're a social media user, there's likely somebody you follow on social media, that if you saw him at the airport, you'd be like, you'd walk right up to him like your best friends, right? And that person has no clue who you are. It happens to me all the time. I feel bad sometimes. Like they're very confident in who I am. And I have no idea who they are. Because I'm in the airport a lot. And it happens a lot. But the same concept works for you in your marketplace, like your entire market can get to know you, we’ll call it passively through consistent content. Because in my opinion, the world has changed from who you know, to who knows you. I think pretty aggressively, right? Because there are significantly more people that know me than I know at this point. Primarily because of content distribution. My Youtube channel gets 18 to 20,000 views a month. That's a lot of people that and in a non-content-driven way, I would never be able to build that type of consistent relationship with that many people. And so it's significantly more about who knows you right? And if you are any type of content creator, you should know 80%+ of your audience never engages with your stuff, but they're watching. And so you're influencing even more people than you might realize. And so if you're putting out consistent content as a personal brand, people will buy into you regardless of what you're selling. So if you're a salesperson at a company, and you said that “I'm not building my personal brands, the company can make more money.” Well, you're just really short-term thinking, and you're an idiot because, at some point, you're going to transition companies and your audience will follow you wherever you go. Because they're not buying the name on the shirt, or the name of the company. They're buying you as a person. I went from remodeling to roofing, I took a dozen relationships with me that how many closing deals in the first week. Because people just trusted me, right? And because I had that personal brand with them. If Mike says it, I can believe it, because Mike does what he says he's gonna do. I took that from remodeling to roofing, I took that from roofing to coaching, then from coaching to I started grading and demolition company. When I started my demo company, I called the top 10 builders I work with the roofing company. They all hired me immediately because “Mike if you say you're good, we believe you. Because like you've always done, you said you're gonna do.” You can't buy that type of personal branding without consistently putting out the information. A very long answer to your question. But personal branding is the top priority when it comes to promoting your business online.Krystal Hobbs:
Absolutely. And I've seen that too. With clients of ours, we have one main office manager, Pam. She's kind of the face of the company like every customer deals with her in some way. So when we posted up a picture of Pam, there were all these comments like Pam is the sweetest and Pam is the best, I love this company. Which you really only get if you're willing to put your people out there and use that as a way to attract even especially I think if you're in an ultra-competitive market.Mike Claudio:
At this point, I just don't think there's an option to do otherwise. I don't think you have a choice anymore.Krystal Hobbs:
Love that. So, once you've worked with a client, and, they are bringing in prospects, and identifying their pain point, they've got to kind of figure it out in terms of that attraction piece. What sort of issues do you see when it comes to actually converting those leads into customers?Mike Claudio:
Your short answer is not a lot. Like if you did a good job, being the attractive character, you focus on their problems. I think inconsistent communications are the biggest challenge, where you're not following through on what you said, if you tell him you're getting a proposal on Tuesday, send it on Tuesday. Don't wait till Wednesday. I think that's one of the bigger issues right now is people don't appreciate the power of follow-through and like doing what you say you're going to do, because you're being tested by the client, that point of can they trust you to do the project they want, right? You're telling me, you can do the project. But you also told me your proposal on Tuesday, and you couldn't do that. So how can I trust you can actually do my project? I think there needs to be more focus on that. If I had put another one on it, it'd be you did not do a good job qualifying budget ranges and price points with them. You give me the perfect customer or the in with the perfect vendor. What if you haven't talked about price points? And understanding that, how well did you qualify that person on the front end? You can find yourself wasting a bunch of time for somebody that just like is not even in the range, you know, the ballpark of what you're trying to sell for. There's either there are two things like lack of follow-through on expectations, once you've got them into your purview. And then, not fully understanding the client's budget expectations are probably the two biggest ones. But honestly, if you do a good job, qualifies out so many people proactively. Because if someone doesn't like the way you communicate, they don't like your process. They don't like what you offer, they're not going to reach out. So it's a pre-qualifier where you're not passively qualifying out the people that would have said no otherwise are a pain in the ass or tire kickers like it doesn't happen as often when you're doing a good job building that attractive character and, building rapport with your client base. But once you get to that process, I'd say lack of follow-through on expectations and not doing a quality job with budget expectations.Krystal Hobbs:
Yes, that makes sense. And I know Mike, you've talked a lot about niching down, and it's funny, I had a conversation with a friend of mine who's in the renovations business. And he was saying, it's all well and good, but it's hard to niche down when you're hungry and you're looking for more work, I guess. What would you say to someone like that? Who has that kind of mindset of “I need to take on all these different kinds of projects because I need to keep my guys busy and I need to keep money coming in the door.”Mike Claudio:
There are so many ways to go with that question. So first off, you're wrong, we'll start there. There is I have yet to see a situation where somebody niched down and got very consistent with one thing and didn't grow. There's some time in that transition period where you might need to let some people go because what you're trying to be from a nice doesn't match your existing team as well. Sometimes you have to make hard decisions as a leader to get your business to the next season. So it survives. But when you do too many services, what happens is you create brand confusion with your audience. And, I was just saying exactly, do you see why one of those, we've all seen that band driving down the road as specializes in? And there are like 27 services listed. You can't specialize in 27 services. And you might think, yes, but I know you don't, and your client base doesn't think you do. And most people want to hire somebody who's the best at what they need. Not the best, that might be what I need based on all the different things you offer, right? And I see this all the time. It's like a roofing company that offers roofing, siding, windows, gutters, fences, decks, who are you, right? And when you offer too many services, you actually dilute your ability to get the right clients and fast enough, because there are people out there that want to spend the money, their value, focus, not price focus, and they want to hire the best of the best for what it is they're looking for. And if you're offering too many services, you dilute and you create a brand, brand confusion, and so people don't know what to refer you to or what not to, and so if you can be like, Look, I am the best one on one business coach or contractors in the world, in my opinion. I'm very clear on what I do. I could coach anybody. I don't, I niche and it might take a little bit longer to gain momentum. But once you do, and once you build that brand of “Mike's the guy for that”, everything gets easier, because now you're known for that thing. And because and here's the other part too, right? I think a lot of people don't understand this fully. Let's say you help Neighbor A with a bathroom remodel, and you knock it out of the park, right? That person's so thrilled because that's what you're supposed to be doing right? And Neighbor A refers you to Neighbor B who wants a deck and you suck at building decks but you say you do it because we need the money. We got to keep the guys busy, right? Well, you piss off Neighbor B, and your Neighbor B does go back to Neighbor A and complains how you did a terrible job. Well, guess what now Neighbor B and Neighbor A will never refer you again. Or you say no to the deck and you refer to a deck guy. Now Neighbor A and Neighbor B are happy with you because you're the bathroom guy and that compounding effect over time of doing the wrong work and pissing off neighbors. Because now, Neighbor A feels like an idiot and now lost faith in referring you, because you did a great job for them and Neighbor B’s pissed off at Neighbor A more than you because they trusted Neighbor A and now you've lost all your referrals partners that whole neighborhood. Or even worse you have an active demoter of your company posting don't hire Claudio Construction because they suck at construction. No, you don't you suck at doing decks you shouldn't be doing. And that's how you start to dilute your brand over time as well because you're taking on work for cash flow that you shouldn't be doing because you can't do it effectively.Krystal Hobbs:
I think that's a valuable point. And I sometimes hear from people too, that I'm going to get bored because I don't have the same variety and excitement and new project.Mike Claudio:
But the other side of it to that is internally like, you can't create systems processes, efficiencies, and cost savings internally if every day your guys are doing a different job on a different site with different tools and different products. So you can't create efficiencies. You can't. If you're bored at making money, go get a job. Like you shouldn't be running a business. You shouldn't be a business owner if creating a system that develops a machine that prints money is boring to you. And since you have those systems and processes because you're doing a consistent type of job, and believe me, I've done this, okay, I took a company that was doing 2.2 million and turned it into a 2.2 million firm. And I turned down 1.2 million of it the following year, including $1.2 million in loss services. I stated that we no longer provide those services. We're not very good at it. We're not making enough money. We need to focus on what we're strong at, not on growing that firm from 2.2 to 3.8 million in two years by getting rid of 60% of our business in the second year because we've gotten extremely good at marketing. We honed our skills in systems and processes. Because we excelled at one or two things, we became extremely skilled at forming referral partnerships and obtaining references. And we put everything we had into it. Was it difficult to let go of 60 percent of your company? Of course, it was, but I was secure enough to know that if we worked hard enough at a company, things would give you the best of the greatest money and clients would not be an issue.Krystal Hobbs:
So you went cold turkey on it, rather than phasing it out?Mike Claudio:
It was a little of both because some things are best done cold turkey, which we no longer do. We phased away some items over the period of three to six months, I'd estimate. I have no recollection of the percentages. But let's imagine there are 700 of them. We're not doing it anymore if I say I'm going cold turkey. The other 500 were probably phased out over three months since they were contracts, relationships, and other obligations that we didn't want to breach. But I was able to get rid of everything within six months.Krystal Hobbs:
Wow. Amazing. And have you found a big difference between the different remodeling versus roofing versus other types of businesses?Mike Claudio:
A difference from what perspective?Krystal Hobbs:
I guess in terms of marketing and sales, has that been dramatically different?Mike Claudio:
Not really, going back to your question earlier, I'd say personal branding is the best way to do it. There's a little bit of a different approach if you're more in the reactive world. You're a service company like plumbing, electrical HVAC. We get this more like people need to think of you immediately when they need you. So it's a little bit different. But I think from the rest of it from a marketing and sales perspective, there are always nuances depending on what you're selling, who you're selling to. There's no cookie-cutter answer. There are always going to be some differences. For the most part, I believe that if you're doing a good job relating to your audience, relating to your market, being visible, being consistent, and operating with integrity, both online and in-person. If you're a different person in your content than you are in person, you're failing. If you're catfishing your entire audience base because you're one person online and completely different in person, you're failing. Because, once again, you're making it harder for your audience to trust you. Everywhere I go, I'm the same person. I talk this way to everyone all the time, whether it's on your podcast, my podcast, YouTube channel, Instagram, or in my coaching calls with my clients. That was something I set out to do from the start. I don't want someone to hire me as a coach after reading my stuff. And on the first call, I don't want to lob an F-bomb for the first time post-contract, do I? So, if you're hiring me, you can follow me at any time, listen to the Big Stud podcast, or watch me on YouTube to see precisely what you're getting. As a result, you effectively get to taste the product per se before you buy them. So, if your audience doesn't know anything about your method, how you function, or who you are professionally or personally, you're in trouble. Who shows up at their house is unknown. That, in my perspective, is an issue. So I don't think there's much of a difference between remodeling roofing, siding, plumbing, and HVAC. I think it's more about how you share what you're doing, what you share about what you do, but getting very open, transparent, and vulnerable is by far the best tactic when it comes to marketing, sales, and content distribution.Krystal Hobbs:
What do you think is the biggest commonality in terms of the mindset of the successful clients that you've had?Mike Claudio:
The clients that push back and fight the suggestions I make versus the customers that just go out and do it have dramatically different levels of success in terms of growth. To give you an example, I'll say A and B to renovation companies, and one guy will take his job list, as I do with every call we get. And by the next call, he had increased the value of his company from 1.8 to 3.8 million dollars. And he moved from a profit margin of 2% to a profit margin of 13%. Gross and a net increase of that magnitude. Take, for example, contractor B, who resisted a little, didn't take as much action, grew a little, but kept a lot. Because he was apprehensive to change. Do I know everything? No, but the advice I give is usually useful and contributes to positive change. So the most significant mentality difference is how successful people are willing to absorb information and put it into practice, regardless of whether they comprehend it or are apprehensive about it. When you pay an expert, such as a coach, you want them to provide you with useful advice. People who pay attention tend to get higher results than those who do not. But, in general, isn't it true that change is the fundamental factor? Whether or not to hire a coach, for example. You're failing if you're reluctant to change your business model and have been doing it the same way for ten years. You may not realize it yet, but you're doing something wrong. If you're not adjusting, altering, and innovating, you'll be left behind. Your customer base will age to the point that they will no longer desire to do business with you. You'll point the finger at the millennials. No, it's your fault for not adjusting to right now. If you didn't know, millennials are the world's most popular home buyers. So, if you're not adapting your approach to be more digitally focused and online-centric, you're failing, even if you don't realize it. But you will, and if you do not, you will blame your client base. And believe me when I say that the clientele is buying from someone. So if you don't adapt to the fact that your target audience is getting younger, you're doomed to fail. And failure is relative; do you think you'll go bankrupt next year? But you're not going to become much bigger. Because you aren't appealing to the current largest pool of buyers. I know people that still don't even have proper websites, where their email addresses are. Here's a piece of advice, if your email address is not at your business name, grow up because it's time to buy the domain, get your email set up. It looks like you're a hobbyist. It doesn't look like you're a real business. And I don't feel like I can trust you.Krystal Hobbs:
That is my biggest pet peeve. So thank you.Mike Claudio:
How long have you been in business? 10 years? How have you tried Google as a tool? It's a pretty powerful environment. Google how to create a business email aground? Let's not overcomplicate this. Yeah.Krystal Hobbs:
I'll put a resource in the show notes on how to buy a domain.Mike Claudio:
Google.com. How to input whatever you need, the pieces of information are out there.Krystal Hobbs:
So, Mike, I'd love to switch gears a little bit before we clue up here. I know that you started a nonprofit. Tell us about that and what inspired that?Mike Claudio:
Alright, so my wife, Tiffany, and I started A Champion’s Shoes. If you go to achampsionsshoes.org or @achampionsshoes on Instagram is where we're mostly distributing content. But our mission is to create champion-level confidence in children. We do that by raising money and buying and distributing name-brand shoes to underprivileged children throughout the country. And I think we would all agree, I think even you would agree, there are very few things that relate back compared to putting on a new pair of shoes. And there's a significant amount of children out there that have never had a new pair of shoes, or I've never even had a pair of shoes that fit right. And so it kind of started in 2020. At the end of every year for like about the last 10 years, my wife and I have been together, we do what we call a balancing of our blessings at the end of the year. Early in our marriage, there are a lot of volunteer work because we didn't have shit to give back. We were broke. I think I started turning in some money and then start turning some bigger checks and big checks to the church or other organizations that we were passionate about.And so: Krystal Hobbs:
Congratulations. And that's beautiful work that you guys are doing and important.Mike Claudio:
It's a lot of fun.Krystal Hobbs:
Amazing, so I know our listeners are definitely gonna want to connect with you. How can they learn more about you?Mike Claudio:
The easiest way would be mikeclaudio.com that's kind of my personal branded page. And then winrateconsulting.com is the company, @winrateconsulting on Instagram is the best place to connect with me directly. That's my primary engagement platform. Obviously, the Big Stud Podcasts if you like podcasts, you got the Big Stud Podcasts. That's probably it.Krystal Hobbs:
Excellent. Well, thank you, Mike. This has been value-packed and I so appreciate you being on the show.Mike Claudio:
Absolutely. Thanks so much.Krystal Hobbs:
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Beyond the Tools. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe, rate, and review wherever you get your podcast. I'd love it if you could also share this episode with a fellow contractor who is ready to get off the tools and grow their business. And if you want more leads, sign up for our email list at [reflectivemarketing.com](http://reflectivemarketing.com/) where we share weekly marketing insights that you can't get anywhere else. I'm Krystal Hobbs and I hope you'll join me on the next episode of Beyond the Tools. See you next time.