Listen to the song we're discussing:

• YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr6f26I2cBI&pp=ygUYdnVsZnBlY2sgaGFsZiBvZiB0aGUgd2F5 
• Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/3uFp6gGgNMtSEmzx1cHTG4 
• Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/half-of-the-way-feat-theo-katzman/1436319130 
• Amazon - https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B081ZLBTR1?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_Gu5DAmMNThAfAbN7TVhRRknB4&trackAsin=B081ZLYTFK 

References

• More about Larry Goldings - https://youtube.com/@larrygoldings?si=1vAyRthG1Tbos6MQ 

Key Takeaways

• “Half of the Way” is a song by Vulfpeck, a funk and soul band. This particular song has a strong pop structure, catchy hooks, and retro sound
• The discussion includes a discussion of the role of a bridge in pop music, and discusses how different this one is from the main body of the song
• The Mailbag portion of the discussion focuses on the relationship between social media and the music industry, and the ongoing importance of live performances and word-of-mouth

About us

Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.

As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.

Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.

Elaine: Hey, Trist!

Elaine: So tell us about this week's track.

Trist: Well, Elaine, what if I told you that in 2014, a band released an

Trist: album on Spotify and made $20,000 in royalties?

Elaine: Oh, that is really hard to do.

Elaine: I mean, especially on Spotify.

Elaine: Tell me more about it.

Elaine: How'd they do this?

Trist: What if I told you that that album had no music on it?

Elaine: What?

Elaine: Okay.

Trist: Not only no music.

Trist: It had no sound.

Trist: It was all silence.

Elaine: Okay, so what did they end up doing?

Trist: So our group today, is the wonderful Vulfpeck.

Trist: (Ooh.) Challenging the system.

Trist: They noticed, uh, kind of a

Trist: little glitch in the matrix, as

Trist: it were.

Trist: And they released a ten-track

Trist: album on Spotify called

Trist: "Sleepify."

Trist: And each song had a had a

Trist: playing time, and it ran and it

Trist: had no music on it, just to show

Trist: the fallacies and the the

Trist: falsehoods and the poor setup of

Trist: the system.

Trist: And so, of course, it changed

Trist: right after that, like any good

Trist: prank.

Trist: But they sold this album on Spotify to have a free tour.

Trist: So they set up a, I think, a date, I think there maybe at

Trist: five or six dates and, uh, admission was free.

Trist: They used the royalty money to, uh, have free concerts.

Trist: How about that?

Elaine: Wow. Yeah. I mean, like,

Elaine: thinking about this as a

Elaine: software professional.

Elaine: I mean, it is definitely someone who gamed the system.

Elaine: And I've got to think through this a little bit more.

Elaine: But, I mean, just thinking about $20,000 on Spotify, that is a

Elaine: whole lot of playing in Spotify.

Trist: Indeed, indeed.

Trist: Well, that was well before the song we are featuring this week.

Trist: I chose "Half of the Way"

Trist: because frankly, it's just a

Trist: great hook.

Trist: I love it.

Elaine: All right, well, with that, we are going to go ahead and put

Elaine: the links in the show notes.

Elaine: But before we go to our break: Trist, can you tell us a little

Elaine: bit about how we should be listening to this song?

Trist: Well, you know, as we've covered

Trist: here before, most of you could

Trist: be listening on a jog or in your

Trist: car.

Trist: We're glad you're listening to us wherever or however you're

Trist: listening to us.

Trist: I'd just like to insert here if you have a choice to improve

Trist: your sonic listening experience at this moment, please do so.

Trist: When you listen to this song, whether it's how you stream it,

Trist: or if you own this and want to listen to it again.

Trist: I like that we both maybe can

Trist: bring you songs that you've not

Trist: heard, or just remind you of

Trist: songs that you have heard and

Trist: you can relisten, so: just want

Trist: you to listen to it in the best

Trist: environment, grab those nicer

Trist: headphones or put it on the nice

Trist: system at the house or in your

Trist: car.

Trist: again, if you have the choice,

Trist: just listen to it in the best

Trist: environment possible.

Elaine: Awesome.

Elaine: Okay, with that, we're going to take a really brief break.

Elaine: So pause the stream, go listen to the song, maybe listen to it

Elaine: a couple of times, and we'll see you on the other side.

Elaine: Wow. That is the most pop sound I've heard out of Vulfpeck.

Elaine: And granted, I haven't heard all

Elaine: of their discography, but it was

Elaine: such a pop song to me, and I

Elaine: think it was very surprising to

Elaine: me because I expected something

Elaine: different out of this Vulfpeck

Elaine: thing.

Elaine: Like, tell me why- why you chose this particular-

Trist: That is exactly why I chose this one from them.

Trist: It's just- it's kind of an earworm for me.

Trist: It sticks in my head every time I hear it.

Trist: First time I heard it, I just loved it.

Trist: Very hook-y.

Trist: I think they're missing the boat.

Trist: They should have created an entire 80s sitcom for that to be

Trist: the theme, is what I think.

Trist: I think it sounds like a sitcom theme to me.

Trist: I don't know why.

Trist: It's just very catchy, very

Trist: hook-y, super musical, well

Trist: constructed.

Trist: Yeah, I just I just like it.

Elaine: It's funny that you mentioned 80s because I wrote down in my

Elaine: notes kind of like 1960s retro with some pop funk in it.

Elaine: That was my gut in there.

Elaine: But I really liked what you said about, you know, the hook and

Elaine: how it sounds like it lands really well, because that's

Elaine: exactly what I wrote down.

Elaine: I wrote that, you know, in each one of these phrases, um,

Elaine: whether it's the end of the chorus or the end of each verse,

Elaine: it just lands very strongly on the one which I think is a very

Elaine: pop thing to do, right?

Elaine: Where it's just like, oh yeah,

Elaine: it has, a very good sense of

Elaine: closure.

Elaine: You could almost just stop the track anytime after it lands

Elaine: very solidly on the one and it just, you know, gave such a

Elaine: finality to each one of the verses and the chorus.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: Yeah. I also, was really

Elaine: surprised because I went through

Elaine: and listened a number of

Elaine: different times.

Elaine: One of the ways that I listened to it was for structure.

Elaine: So I think this was maybe my third or fourth time through,

Elaine: because I was really curious about whether it mapped to a

Elaine: typical pop song structure.

Elaine: It just sounded like that.

Elaine: But at the same time, there were elements that were very

Elaine: surprising to me that were not in the typical pop. I'd say like

Elaine: in the pop structure.

Elaine: Um, but it did have a very

Elaine: consistent pop structure where

Elaine: you had this intro that was also

Elaine: the outro.

Elaine: You had a couple of verses, the

Elaine: chorus, a verse, a chorus, and

Elaine: then you had this bridge and

Elaine: interlude.

Elaine: Now where things broke for me a

Elaine: little bit was that after the

Elaine: interlude, there was a second

Elaine: half of the final line of the

Elaine: verse before it went into the

Elaine: chorus a couple of times, then

Elaine: tagged its way out a couple of

Elaine: times.

Elaine: (Right.) But for me, just

Elaine: looking at the structure written

Elaine: out, it is a very classic pop

Elaine: song structure.

Elaine: Is that is that what you were

Elaine: hearing as a part of that, or

Elaine: were you looking at- I like

Elaine: that.

Trist: I like that exact thing you're talking about.

Trist: They put that little interlude in before you just hit the

Trist: second half of a verse, instead of an entire other verse there.

Trist: It's just like the second half of it, with the little interlude

Trist: after the bridge.

Trist: So I dug how different that is.

Elaine: Yeah. I was also really struck by the bridge itself, because it

Elaine: was so different than the rest of the song.

Elaine: Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Trist: Yeah. I mean, that's to me, that's what a good bridge does.

Trist: Heard a rallying cry lately of

Trist: songwriting, like, "Bring back

Trist: the bridge in pop music!" Um,

Trist: that's always where the cool

Trist: stuff happens.

Trist: Usually the cool chords happen, a lot of times thematically,

Trist: that's kind of where the stuff goes down, or either a decision

Trist: is made in the story or consequences are had, etc. The

Trist: bridge is like such a super powerful thing, and it just

Trist: gives us a minute away from the catchy, hook-y thing before we

Trist: have it again.

Trist: So it serves a lot.

Trist: And it's true, a lot of times

Trist: today in pop music, they're just

Trist: not there.

Trist: Or it's, someone might call it something a bridge, but it's

Trist: really like just a couple of measures of a couple of chords

Trist: and then right, we're right back to the hook.

Trist: Mm,

Elaine: Like a more of an interlude as opposed to a true bridge.

Elaine: Yeah.

Elaine: I wrote down something very similar.

Elaine: I wrote down that the bridge generally has a moment of truth.

Elaine: Like if you listen to the

Elaine: lyrics, that's really where, you

Elaine: know, the songwriter is

Elaine: illuminating something about,

Elaine: the theme that they're writing

Elaine: about or like telling a part of

Elaine: the story, the internal

Elaine: monologue, or like what's going

Elaine: on behind it or what's driving

Elaine: it.

Trist: Right.

Elaine: Yeah, that- I wrote that down,

Elaine: and I- I love that you brought

Elaine: up just how important that

Elaine: bridge was.

Trist: Yeah, I like that.

Trist: It's like comparing: in this relationship, it can't just be

Trist: half the way, right?

Trist: So. And then, then they bring out these other things, you

Trist: can't be only half of the way on these other things.

Trist: You can't hold half of a hand.

Trist: You don't break half the rules.

Trist: Like, once you break rules, you break rules, etc. So, I like the

Trist: little parallels to that.

Trist: It's just like, here's the deal.

Trist: You know, you're in or you're out.

Trist: That's that stuff happens in the bridge.

Trist: So I dig that.

Elaine: Yeah. Uh, you know, I actually

Elaine: had to look up the lyrics

Elaine: because I'm really bad at

Elaine: listening to lyrics when I'm

Elaine: listening to all of the other

Elaine: different things.

Elaine: So I looked up the lyrics and

Elaine: stared at them as if I were

Elaine: teaching literature or looking

Elaine: at it just from a songwriter's

Elaine: perspective.

Elaine: And I do want to read out the bridge Um, to illustrate exactly

Elaine: what you were talking about.

Elaine: "You can say that it's only a game/ I don't mind playing the

Elaine: fool/ But nobody wants to hold half a hand/ And nobody breaks

Elaine: half the rules."

Elaine: (Yeah.) Um, and it is such a tight group of four, in that it

Elaine: references a game and then like at the very end, it's talking

Elaine: about rules and there's this whole concept of half a hand.

Elaine: But the one thing that sticks out that isn't related to the

Elaine: game is playing the fool.

Elaine: Like that phrase: "playing the fool."

Elaine: You know, I was thinking about this group of four and the

Elaine: instrumentation of the bridge because it pulls way, way back

Elaine: in this instrumentation.

Elaine: Can you tell me a little bit

Elaine: more about, you know, how

Elaine: instrumentation is used in a lot

Elaine: of different types of songs,

Elaine: like whether it's a bridge or

Elaine: whatever, to illustrate a

Elaine: point.?

Trist: Oh, well, right there, again, I

Trist: think you focus the rhythmic

Trist: emphasis that happens in the

Trist: verses bah bah bah, uh, that,

Trist: that kind of groove that

Trist: happens.

Trist: We go away from that.

Trist: There's just these long things

Trist: which you get- (And more

Trist: legato.) Right, which fits with

Trist: what you're talking about more,

Trist: contemplating like, hey, here's

Trist: a deal.

Trist: You know, nobody holds half of a hand.

Trist: Nobody breaks half the rules.

Trist: Like, here's the thing I want you to pay attention to.

Trist: Again, it emphasizes lyrically what we were talking about and

Trist: thematically, the fact that, hey, this is this is this is the

Trist: point that I'm making.

Trist: It just brings more attention to what the lyric is right there,

Trist: by breaking it out of the rhythm and making sure that you're

Trist: paying attention, because we're just holding out these, uh, the

Trist: instruments, not getting in the way of what the lyric is there.

Elaine: Yeah. I was looking at how I'd

Elaine: written out the structure, and

Elaine: right after the bridge is the

Elaine: interlude that we were talking

Elaine: about and has a whole bunch of

Elaine: chromatics in there, but I also

Elaine: wrote down "interlude with

Elaine: octaves."

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: Um, because there are a number of different instruments who are

Elaine: playing the exact same riff.

Elaine: Mhm.

Elaine: I don't know whether this is

Elaine: intentional at all- Like,

Elaine: knowing what I know about

Elaine: Vulfpeck, it probably was

Elaine: intentional.

Elaine: But you know, the entire song is

Elaine: about a relationship where

Elaine: you're not really in unity,

Elaine: right?

Elaine: Someone's holding back.

Elaine: (Mm-hm.) But in the, the section

Elaine: where we have this interlude

Elaine: with octaves, there is literally

Elaine: unity.

Elaine: Right?

Elaine: Like this, this entire really complex riff is happening.

Elaine: Multiple instruments playing exactly the same note – in

Elaine: different octaves of course – but there's a sense of unity in

Elaine: that interlude that doesn't exist elsewhere in the song.

Elaine: (Yeah.) But I just think that that's really-

Trist: That's cool.

Trist: (Yeah.) I like it.

Trist: I like that.

Elaine: Can you tell me a little bit

Elaine: more about how you see the

Elaine: orchestration of this particular

Elaine: song, like, over the course of

Elaine: the entire song from beginning

Elaine: to end?

Trist: Hm. The orchestration, I mean, they don't generally have too

Trist: much extra stuff.

Trist: Everything has such intention.

Trist: The drum grooves, the basslines.

Trist: There's there's no frivolous instruments.

Trist: There's tambourine when it needs to be.

Trist: It needs to be the simplest

Trist: rhythm it ever needs to be to

Trist: outline sections.

Trist: The use of the saxophone, you know, in places that it only

Trist: needs to really be they're just very intentional about that.

Trist: I like in that interlude you

Trist: talked about, there's like this

Trist: synth sound that only happens

Trist: there.

Trist: Um, and again, it's in tandem with these other octave lines,

Trist: and on the bridge, suddenly there's this saxophone, which is

Trist: also kind of a smoother sound.

Trist: It adds to the smoothness of the

Trist: bridge vibe we were already

Trist: talking about.

Trist: so I just liked it throughout that, uh, uh, just all those

Trist: little just the way that that stays is just solid.

Trist: Just very typical rhythm section, just tightness.

Elaine: Yeah. I, I wrote down that the drums are subtly complex.

Elaine: One of my listens through was specifically listening to what

Elaine: the drums were doing.

Elaine: As someone who was a beatboxer for years, you know, drums are

Elaine: kind of my jam.

Elaine: So I'm listening to.

Elaine: "Oh, you know, how complex are

Elaine: these drums?" It turns out for a

Elaine: lot of it, it's not super

Elaine: complicated.

Elaine: It's holding the beat and

Elaine: holding like a very simple

Elaine: rhythm.

Elaine: And then every once in a while, throw something just really

Elaine: interesting in there.

Elaine: I also love what you were talking about the sound, because

Elaine: I wasn't necessarily listening to some of the other pieces, but

Elaine: I listened to the keyboard a lot, and it was like, "Oh,

Elaine: that's a very classic kind of, you know, 70s."

Elaine: I'm not exactly sure if it was a Rhodes, but it has a very

Elaine: classic sound to it.

Elaine: And I know that I have some friends who will be able to

Elaine: listen to that and say exactly which keyboard that was.

Elaine: I'm not that good at that.

Elaine: Um, but I think that's what really led to my understanding

Elaine: of, you know, retro.

Elaine: There's a sense of like, you know, funk and soul.

Elaine: There's this very classic sound

Elaine: that we associate with that era

Elaine: that came through the

Elaine: instruments that they chose and

Elaine: the effects that they put on

Elaine: those instruments.

Trist: Indeed.

Trist: Yeah, they use a variety of keyboards.

Trist: They often use a Rhodes.

Trist: I know there's a regular just piano on that, that- Larry

Trist: Goldings is a great piano player and composer, I think was a

Trist: co-composer of the song is on this track with them.

Trist: It makes sense to me.

Trist: He's so musical.

Trist: Uh, we'll have some things in the show notes that I would love

Trist: to add, talking about Larry Goldings and just the variety of

Trist: places that he shows up in pop and jazz and humorous settings.

Elaine: Well, I'm looking forward to reading through those.

Elaine: I have like, one final observation.

Elaine: I got this link from you as a YouTube link, and it was the

Elaine: music video of the song.

Elaine: I found it incredibly distracting.

Elaine: I actually had to, like, move the tab into the background and

Elaine: listen to it multiple times before I could watch it.

Elaine: But then I found myself really looking at the, you know, the

Elaine: the people playing the instruments and seeing, um, and

Elaine: I know it's probably mimed I know it's not a live take.

Elaine: But it was interesting looking at them playing the instruments

Elaine: as an indication for what I should be hearing.

Elaine: Um, and I'm, I'm kind of curious about what you saw in the music

Elaine: video that might have influenced your perspective on what you

Elaine: thought the orchestration was?

Trist: Yeah, I guess I probably should have just shared a non-video

Trist: version to you first.

Trist: That's how I heard it first without a video.

Trist: Um, I think the video reflects what they do.

Trist: That's a very common thing for them.

Trist: They don't really have like, big

Trist: creative, storytelling thematic

Trist: videos.

Trist: It's literally them in their rehearsal / studio space.

Trist: It may or may not have been, you

Trist: know, they sure they may not

Trist: have been the recording, but it

Trist: probably isn't terribly

Trist: different from the way things

Trist: were recorded, the way that they

Trist: do stuff, it's very much

Trist: old-school.

Trist: Their origin story is a little

Trist: bit wanting to be like the

Trist: rhythm sections of old that

Trist: would just get called in and do

Trist: these great 60s, 70s records,

Trist: where they would just be a

Trist: rhythm section.

Trist: They're just churning through

Trist: tunes every day, making album

Trist: after album.

Trist: So that's kind of the way that they're set up and they want to.

Trist: So the video just to me just

Trist: reminds me that that's kind of

Trist: the thing they're going for is

Trist: that it's not a big layered,

Trist: overwhelmingly overproduced

Trist: product.

Trist: They want it to be a tight kind of in-studio type recording.

Elaine: And I know you've seen them in person, right?

Elaine: You've seen them live.

Elaine: (Indeed.) Is it a very similar kind of vibe?

Trist: Yeah, it really is.

Trist: And actually, the thing about

Trist: them in concert is just how many

Trist: of them play different

Trist: instruments.

Trist: Theo Katzman, who's just a really cool songwriter himself

Trist: and the lead vocal on this, at any given time, he's, playing

Trist: guitar while singing a lead.

Trist: He's maybe not singing lead at all.

Trist: Sometimes he's just at the drums.

Trist: He's over at some keys.

Trist: They're so good at the different instruments that it's not like

Trist: part of a shtick, but it feels like it almost like, um, it

Trist: would be easy to think of it as your shtick, but they're all so

Trist: good at the instruments that it's like, no, that's- I like

Trist: his playing on this song, etc. But they just rotate around the

Trist: stage at any given time.

Trist: And it has so much fun, and it never feels like, oh, when that

Trist: guy's on the drums, it doesn't feel as good.

Trist: Or when that guy singing lead, it's not as cool.

Trist: It's never that.

Trist: It's just always just it's always Vulfpeck.

Elaine: Yeah, I love that.

Elaine: And part of it is that I am a multi-instrumentalist, and I

Elaine: also know a lot of people who play multiple instruments at a

Elaine: very high level.

Elaine: And at the same time, I know a

Elaine: lot of people who are

Elaine: specialists in their one

Elaine: instrument, and they're also

Elaine: amazing.

Elaine: Um, I think it's just

Elaine: fascinating to see people who

Elaine: are at high levels with all

Elaine: sorts of different instruments,

Elaine: just actually playing those

Elaine: instruments.

Elaine: So it sounds like it's a really

Elaine: special time, and I'll have to

Elaine: I'll make sure that I watch

Elaine: them.

Elaine: Make some time to watch them the next time they're in town.

Trist: Highly recommend it.

Trist: That's another thing is they they kind of work in scarcity.

Trist: All of them have their own different projects.

Trist: Almost everybody involved has their their own things or

Trist: they're part of other groups, etc. You know, every given any

Trist: given year, they might only do five or six concerts, but those

Trist: concerts are Madison Square Garden and the Gorge or

Trist: somewhere like that, or Red Rocks or at the Greek, etc. So

Trist: it's not like they put together a big multi-city tour.

Trist: It's like, no, we're just going

Trist: to play big, awesome, fun

Trist: venues.

Trist: We like to play.

Trist: So that gives everybody a chance

Trist: to do their own thing while they

Trist: can still, you know, I think

Trist: they're one of the first bands

Trist: to sell out Madison Square

Trist: Garden without a record label

Trist: outside of themselves, and

Trist: they're self-managed.

Trist: That's kind of indicative of the way that the entertainment world

Trist: is going now, the fact that you could sell out these places

Trist: without those elements, uh, is kind of the thing.

Trist: So definitely seeing them live is something I highly recommend

Trist: if you don't know about them and check out more of their albums.

Elaine: Mm. Well, any final thoughts before we wrap up?

Trist: That's it.

Trist: That was it.

Trist: That was my final thought.

Elaine: Um, well, this is a really great transition into this next

Elaine: segment, which is our Mailbag.

Trist: Mailbag!

Elaine: That's amazing.

Elaine: This particular post that I

Elaine: found on Threads, it actually

Elaine: relates to what you were just

Elaine: talking about.

Elaine: Um, you know, you didn't even know about it.

Elaine: So this, came from a Threads

Elaine: post, in August of 2025 from

Elaine: Brandy Zdan.

Elaine: Oh, "Zdan," sorry.

Elaine: Who's a rock and roll musician and two times Juno nominated.

Elaine: So she wrote, "The fact that the music industry currently

Elaine: qualifies you by your social media reach is hilarious.

Elaine: It's a fickle algo beast that changes every day.

Elaine: Let's start focusing on long term growth, okay?

Elaine: That's what I care about and care about in other artists."

Elaine: And so my question to you, like

Elaine: based off of this, is where do

Elaine: you see the music industry going

Elaine: when it comes to the

Elaine: relationship with social media

Elaine: reach?

Trist: Mm. Mm-mm.

Trist: Wow. It's tough because on one

Trist: hand, being a musician who

Trist: started before the application

Trist: of, you know, the social media

Trist: reach and needing to have

Trist: followers etc., it's tough

Trist: because I don't think of that

Trist: right away as something that's

Trist: important.

Trist: And yet, it's become the thing.

Trist: So it's part of the crazy change

Trist: that we're kind of living

Trist: through.

Trist: I don't know that either you or I will see the resolution of how

Trist: this gets sorted out.

Trist: Feels like every day, whether it's music, movies, TV, our

Trist: entertainment access and production, is just changing the

Trist: way that we get it, the way it is distributed, the way that we

Trist: get a fan base.

Trist: Even, like I just said, with

Trist: Vulfpeck, you know, filling an

Trist: arena, without really being on

Trist: quote unquote, the radio or

Trist: without having a particular

Trist: product or without being in a

Trist: movie.

Trist: You just have these followers that you gain online and, it's

Trist: super powerful and it, it creates your own niche.

Trist: But it also prevents, you know, really establishing, the

Trist: megastars, you know, the ones that we currently have, your

Trist: Beyoncé, uh, Taylor Swift, etc. They all started in the old

Trist: record label system.

Trist: So even to say, oh, but we have those today.

Trist: It's like, well, no, they didn't

Trist: just start just via social

Trist: media.

Trist: So it's going to be interesting to see how that evolves.

Elaine: Yeah, I'm, you know, there's a

Elaine: couple of things that are

Elaine: floating in my head regarding

Elaine: our relationship to social

Elaine: media.

Elaine: One of them is, is that the

Elaine: music industry is very similar

Elaine: to the publishing industry in

Elaine: that they are looking for

Elaine: existing social media reach when

Elaine: they evaluate you to whether

Elaine: like signing you or getting you

Elaine: involved in some kind of

Elaine: festival.

Elaine: Right?

Elaine: It's a part of your package, you

Elaine: know, how do you promote your

Elaine: book?

Elaine: How do you promote, you know, the thing that you're writing.

Elaine: And at the same time, I think

Elaine: that there is something very

Elaine: subtle about reach versus

Elaine: followers versus the strategy

Elaine: that you use for marketing

Elaine: because, you know, thinking back

Elaine: to when we first started, we

Elaine: were talking about mailing

Elaine: lists.

Elaine: We were talking about touring.

Elaine: There was the, you know, the various circuits that you could

Elaine: ride to get more like collegiate exposure, for instance.

Elaine: I think nowadays with the more democratized reach, um, it's a

Elaine: lot more complicated.

Elaine: But I think that there is

Elaine: something to be said about, you

Elaine: know, how people are influenced

Elaine: nowadays.

Elaine: And, you know, earlier today, I

Elaine: was thinking about how I was

Elaine: influenced by my most recent set

Elaine: of albums that did not come from

Elaine: you.

Elaine: I will say to everyone who's

Elaine: listening right now, Trist

Elaine: recommends like 75, 80% of my

Elaine: music.

Elaine: But this particular set of albums that I bought was, um,

Elaine: because of a conversation that I had with a mutual friend of

Elaine: ours, on social media.

Elaine: So he had posted photos of a

Elaine: concert of a band that I had

Elaine: seen in concert in my city three

Elaine: weeks before.

Elaine: So I reached out to this friend

Elaine: and we were talking about it,

Elaine: and one thing came up, he said,

Elaine: hey, did your city have an

Elaine: opener?

Elaine: And I said, no, we didn't have an opener.

Elaine: It was just the band playing straight through.

Elaine: And he said, oh, ours had an opener.

Elaine: Maybe because it was like the closing show of the tour.

Elaine: But she was amazing.

Elaine: And he sent me her Instagram handle, so I followed her.

Elaine: And you know, over the course of the next few weeks, I just kept

Elaine: on clicking through her Reels, like checking to see her video

Elaine: content, listening to her like the little snippets of music

Elaine: that she had posted and realized I really liked her sound.

Elaine: I really liked what she was doing.

Elaine: So the next time I was, you know, interested in buying an

Elaine: album, or three in this case.

Elaine: I bought a bunch of her EPs and

Elaine: I've really enjoyed listening to

Elaine: them.

Elaine: And so there is this thing where her social media didn't reach

Elaine: me, but she had made a fan through live, playing this live

Elaine: show, and he had told me, so it was like word of mouth,

Elaine: definitely the strongest way to sell music, right?

Elaine: But it was me evaluating her music through what I saw on her

Elaine: social media account.

Elaine: So it wasn't her reach.

Elaine: It was the fact that she was creating great content that got

Elaine: me really hooked on her music and influenced me to actually

Elaine: buy her album.

Elaine: So I just thought that was interesting.

Elaine: And thinking about like, how marketing works nowadays and how

Elaine: it's not necessarily like how big your reach is.

Elaine: Do you have a million followers?

Elaine: Do you have two million followers?

Elaine: But it's more about like: what

Elaine: is it that you're creating and

Elaine: who's talking about you and

Elaine: who's going to listen to your

Elaine: music and be interested in

Elaine: buying?

Trist: Yeah. And I think it always is going to come back to the

Trist: ability to do it live, to influence and impress somebody,

Trist: live and in person and the word of mouth from that.

Trist: So that part, hasn't gone away.

Trist: And I don't think that that it ever will.

Elaine: Yeah. So I think it's going to be really complicated.

Elaine: Our relationship with social

Elaine: media and specifically the music

Elaine: industry's relationship with

Elaine: social media.

Elaine: So, you know, more more to come on this, but, you know, thanks

Elaine: for the discussion.

Elaine: It was really interesting.

Trist: Uh. Thank you.

Elaine: All right.

Elaine: And that's it for this week of the Musicians Loupe.

Elaine: We hope that you share with your friends.

Elaine: If you have a question for our mailbag, please email us at

Elaine: themusiciansloupe That's l o u p e at gmail.com.

Elaine: all right.

Elaine: We'll see you next time.

Trist: See you next time.

Elaine: Wait, was that it?

Elaine: Did we just finish?

Trist: We did, we did.

Elaine: Do I sound too lispy?

Trist: No, I think you're great.

Trist: You're going to be way more self conscious of it.

Elaine: I think so too.

Elaine: Yeah. All right.

Trist: Sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry.

Trist: Okay okay okay.

Trist: Okay.

Elaine: Now I gotta say that again.

Trist: It's a comparison. Comparison. Comparing.

Trist: Comparisoning.

Elaine: I can say the word two million.

Elaine: Yeah.

Elaine: Okay.

Elaine: Came out of the gate strong.

Elaine: Okay.