‘Do you trust me?’ is one of the most important questions to ask yourself and your team.

Learn from lead pastor, Bill Bush, as he shares the importance of building a trusting environment. “If you don’t have TRUST, nothing else matters.”

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Host

You're listening to the No Grey Areas podcast with Patrick McCalla. Our guest today is Bill Bush, founder and lead pastor of Rock Point Church. Bill explains how trust is a critical element to any healthy team or individual. Let's jump in.

Patrick McCalla

So, Bill Bush, welcome to no grey areas. Thanks so much for taking the time. What was funny as you.

Patrick McCalla

Walked in today and it's like we called each other, we have.

Patrick McCalla

The same exact black jean jacket on. Most are listening, not watching, but we're like a couple of junior high girls who called each other last night. What are.

Bill Bush

You wearing? It's probably.

Bill Bush

The age.

Bill Bush

Thing. Yeah, this is old man. Cool. Oh man. We'll go with that. Cool. I like that. I like that.

Patrick McCalla

Well, today we're going to talk about leadership and trust, and we'll get into that in a moment. But first, I want to get a little bit of background. So just this last weekend you celebrated 20 years, right? Is the founding pastor, lead pastor of Rock Pointe Church.

Bill Bush

I was five years old when we started this. Yeah.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, the cool thing is.

Patrick McCalla

15 years ago, when I first moved to Phenix, you were one of the first people I met, one of the first pastors that I met, so we were working with anti-human trafficking. I read an article in the paper How your church was involved.

Patrick McCalla

We met at a restaurant. We you guys started working with that. We met a few times. I started preaching at your church a little bit. Now this is our home church is a family and I watch you every week.

Patrick McCalla

Preach.

Bill Bush

You had no hair on the chin.

Patrick McCalla

Exactly. You had hair in here in that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Most people that knew back then would recognize me now. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, congratulations on that.

Patrick McCalla

20 years. Thank you. And you went from eating in a living room with a handful of people, right?

Bill Bush

Yeah.

Bill Bush

And then a Bible study. A clubhouse? Yeah. And then meeting at a school. Yeah. And then finally getting to the land and the facility where actually we're sitting right now.

Bill Bush

Yeah, yeah.

Patrick McCalla

Well, the amazing thing about that is you. So when you're meeting in the school, right, you buy this land. This is out in the middle of nowhere, right? Oh, yeah, like 50 was a 50 acres you guys got now 30.

Bill Bush

Well, we had ten up front than we did another buyback from the guy that owned it. We got him to be the bank for us because nobody would loan us. Yeah, money. Yeah. So we got we got ten for free, actually.

Bill Bush

From a whole nother.

Bill Bush

Backstory. But then we we we financiers, we got about 37.

Patrick McCalla

eight, 36 and a half. So see, I was using passenger numbers.

Bill Bush

Have actually rounded up to be rounded.

Bill Bush

Up to 300 acres. But now.

Bill Bush

Yeah, there.

Bill Bush

Was nothing out here. Matter of fact, this piece of land, it's it's weird. We did aerial shots, found it all the way back our exact pasture. He found aerial shots that they took for farming like way back into like the Wright brothers were basically flying over the thing and you could see there was farms all around.

Bill Bush

There's ranches all around. This piece of land as far back as you can find, had nothing ever on it. No one ever has been empty. It was empty.

Patrick McCalla

People thought you were a little crazy back then, right? Like, you guys are just a little church meeting in a school and you're buying 37 acres.

Bill Bush

Yeah, we got the first acres and we thought we should build a building. And all I've known is in the history of all the people who have gone before me and mentored me. And I watched it. If, Hey, if you trust God and he's doing something no one ever said, You know what?

Bill Bush

We got too much land.

Bill Bush

Yeah, so.

Bill Bush

We have more parking than we know what to do with we. We don't know what to do with it. So it's like we had an opportunity to get it while was cheap. And I go, That's the one thing that's not going down the price of the land.

Bill Bush

Yeah. And so we basically did three major campaigns. Our first three were all about just getting more dirt, which was that talk about leadership poll. That's like, how do you get people to say I'm going to sacrifice and all we're going to have is a little bit more dirt?

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, no. And by the way, go drive out there and see it. It's in the middle of nowhere.

Bill Bush

And at that tender wire, yeah, we're doing this now.

Patrick McCalla

Like for listeners that don't know where this is located. It's exploding and growth around here. You have a big high school right across the street that you guys have a great relationship with. Do stuff with the kids. I mean, it's just it's just amazing.

Patrick McCalla

It's an amazing God story. How God worked all this out. So anyway, congratulations. So you went from meeting in a living room 20 years later, you're having a big celebration. You got in this building about a year ago, right after COVID started.

Patrick McCalla

Perfect timing for.

Bill Bush

You. Yeah.

Bill Bush

We finished the building and then we couldn't meet in it for a few months.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, yeah. So you had your grand opening.

Patrick McCalla

Ready to celebrate and COVID hits and then you have an empty brand new building.

Bill Bush

But yet you had your new house payment. Yeah, but you couldn't move into your new house, but you start to pay for it.

Bill Bush

Perfect scenario. It was.

Bill Bush

It was. It was fun times, fun times.

Patrick McCalla

So if we back up, you're from California originally?

Bill Bush

Well, now I'm originally from here.

Patrick McCalla

Oh, you are.

Patrick McCalla

That's right. That's right. I grew.

Bill Bush

Up out here in South Scottsdale, and then I went to California for.

Bill Bush

College. It was college, married.

Bill Bush

A California girl stayed out there until 20 years ago when we moved back to Stanford.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah. So baseball, you went to college play base. Yeah, all right. And you played baseball and then had some injuries. You know you're pretty good baseball player.

Bill Bush

Yeah, yeah. And bad enough to play in college. I had my moments. Yeah, yeah.

Patrick McCalla

And then you're you're working as a youth pastor, right? In California? Yeah, I.

Bill Bush

Started out in youth ministry.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah. And then you felt God calling you to come play in a church out here. And so that's where the story goes. So let's get into that. Really, what we're focusing on today is leadership and trust. So recently or I say recently, a couple of years ago, we're both wives now in our fifties.

Patrick McCalla

So when you say recently, that can be anywhere within a decade, right?

Bill Bush

Yeah, exactly, exactly. But recently.

Patrick McCalla

I think it was just a couple of years ago, you guys did a study as at church, as a staff team, right? Okay. And that was. With the national organization. So explain that a little bit.

Bill Bush

It was, it's called best Christian workplaces, and they actually consult. They'll survey your your whole team anonymously and they look at different factors that really it's about Are you a good place to work for? It's really evaluating what kind of culture do you have?

Bill Bush

Yeah. Do you have a culture that people feel free to do their job and work well? And we thought we had a pretty good culture. You'd worked hard. And so we brought them in and let them do the survey and turned out we got basically the for a first time organization they shot.

Bill Bush

They were shocked. They called us up and they wanted to interview us because we kind of got the highest score they'd ever seen.

Bill Bush

Wow.

Bill Bush

And yeah, because because probably because we immediately fired everybody that we thought would be a problem before we took the survey plan. You know, we said, no, not yet happened, but so they wanted to interview us. And and what was interesting was the president, the person that kind of we had a Zoom call with them to to

Bill Bush

interview. They're like, the only weird thing is you had one of your senior level staff not take the survey. And I was like, Oh, that was me and like, wait, why didn't you do? I just I wanted to see what everyone else said.

Bill Bush

I didn't. I know what I would say. I didn't want to skew it. She's like in the history of us doing this. The senior pastor, the lead pastor, has never not taken the survey. And I was like, Well.

Patrick McCalla

Maybe that they usually go down and check the ten out of ten boxes.

Bill Bush

Maybe that's part of the reason why we got.

Bill Bush

Such a high score. I don't know. I was.

Bill Bush

So they were they were kind of just bewildered by us.

Patrick McCalla

Well, the interesting thing about that is I know about that test. I know a lot of organizations that have taken that test, and most of the time, they're surprised. The other direction is the senior leadership team or the lead team is thinking, we have a pretty good culture.

Patrick McCalla

I mean, we can fix some things and they get the results back and they're like, Oh, actually, our staff is saying we don't have as good a culture as we thought we did. Years actually went the other direction, which is interesting.

Patrick McCalla

So let me just pass you really quick before we get into that leadership and trust and just say before there's some listeners that maybe are reaching to to turn this off and going, Well, I'm not a leader, so this podcast doesn't affect me or connect with me.

Patrick McCalla

What would you say to them?

Bill Bush

I would say that I think every human being at some level is a leader. Yeah, yeah. You're either a leader in your home, you got somebody you work with, you got family members. You're and then ultimately, leadership is self leadership, too.

Bill Bush

So a lot of principles that you learn in leadership, you should at least apply to yourself. Yeah, yeah. To lead yourself, I can. Can you? Like you said, leadership and trust. Can I trust myself?

Bill Bush

Mm hmm. You know, and.

Patrick McCalla

You and someone knows that about himself. They may not share that with anybody else, but they know if they keep lying to themselves, they know if they're exaggerating stories, they know if they're so. The leadership and trust just for self leadership is very important.

Bill Bush

Well, also, I think there's leaders out there that don't know their leader because they have the wrong idea.

Bill Bush

Aha.

Bill Bush

And so they, just like some of the listeners, might think, Well, I'm not a leader, but after we talk, maybe you are. Mm hmm. And maybe you should step up and and embrace your leadership a little bit more because you just think it's all about title or position and leadership isn't about title.

Bill Bush

Yeah, you can get a title and not be a good leader. You know.

Patrick McCalla

We've all seen that.

Bill Bush

Yeah, and you can be a great leader with no title.

Patrick McCalla

Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, and we've both witnessed people that didn't think they were a leader and and other people saw it in and and then they rose to that occasion and just did things that they didn't.

Bill Bush

And every time they're on a team, every time they're in a room, if you understand what leadership really is, they actually you watch it be like. They led in that moment, yeah. They wouldn't know they were leading. They just did.

Bill Bush

Yeah, and that's kind of what we do as an organization. We we don't necessarily create leaders.

Bill Bush

Yeah.

Bill Bush

You spot them. How I used to say, you spot them, you sprout them and you spread them.

Patrick McCalla

OK, say that again.

Bill Bush

You spot, sprout and spread leaders spot. So you spot them. You plant the seed. You help grow the you water. We don't create them, but we provide the environment that allows them to grow. And then you get more of them.

Bill Bush

Yeah, send them out in, create a hopefully a bumper crop of leadership.

Bill Bush

Yeah.

Patrick McCalla

That right there we could. Just that's almost a Mike Trout moment. We can almost descend as podcast right there, except we have to find a little bit with trust. Yeah, exactly. Well, let me let me back up again then and say, Well, why?

Patrick McCalla

Why is trust and leadership so important? So I'm thinking, and you probably thought about this book, Patrick Lynch, you only wrote a book. The five dysfunctions of a team. The bottom of that pyramid that he does is trust in saying, if you don't have that, everything falls apart.

Patrick McCalla

But but add to that why? Why is trust so important for leadership?

Bill Bush

Well, I love how lets, you know, puts it right. It's like if you don't get this. Nothing else matters. Yeah, it doesn't matter if you have all the looks of a leader, if you have all of the abilities of the leader, if you if you can say leadership things if like, look at Saul and they'll say like

Bill Bush

heat from the surface, they picked him to be a king because he looked like a cake. Yeah, any any thought he was actually a good warrior and he looked great. But as time went on, character and some other things prevailed.

Bill Bush

It's like you couldn't really trust him. Yeah. And when trust isn't there, it doesn't matter about any of the other skills. You could have the greatest idea in the world, but like, you know, you always know that you have that friend that always could talk a good game like that, like we're going to do.

Bill Bush

This is to be great.

Bill Bush

And you get excited. And then every time they have a plan, it never works out the way they said.

Bill Bush

Yeah, yeah, after a.

Bill Bush

While. Yeah, yeah.

Patrick McCalla

It's just noise.

Bill Bush

Yeah, it's like background noise. You're like, you know, that's just Bobby. You know what it's like.

Bill Bush

That's just so true.

Bill Bush

Always that way. And so in that that kind of leader, you know.

Patrick McCalla

We both have a friend in mind.

Bill Bush

Yeah, we do. And if you don't have a friend in mind, that makes you the threat.

Bill Bush

You're the one. I hope I had a friend in mind. Yeah, but.

Bill Bush

And then that type of leader, you know what they do, they are always having turnover in their followers and who they don't really give up on their leaders. They just so people get excited for a while and then they all fall away.

Bill Bush

Then they get a whole new group of excited for a while, and that's where they get stuck. They they hit this lid and it's all about trust.

Patrick McCalla

Why do you why do you think that trust is is often not there like this organization that came in and did this study and guarantee if they were a part of this conversation right now, they would tell us and most organizations we go in and do the study with the lead team finds out there's less trust than

Patrick McCalla

they thought. Why do you think it's often not there?

Bill Bush

Well, because I think two things that really are important for trust is is communication. And as an organization gets larger, that gets more difficult. So one of the things I think why we did well is because we actually did want to evaluate ourselves because we had a couple of years before we realized as we grew rapidly and

Bill Bush

added a bunch of staff. We figured out ourselves that we thought we had a really good culture. But we realized and we did, but the communication wasn't working right. And so it kind of felt like the lead team was this this, you know, the this private group like, you know, like we get together with our hoods on

Bill Bush

and and do our secret ceremonies and everybody else.

Bill Bush

What's happening.

Bill Bush

Wondering what's happening? And we thought we were coming. And then and then really, that wasn't. And it wasn't even just the top down and bottom up communities. It was a real problem. We discovered in that middle of that what we really was.

Bill Bush

The issue was the was the lateral communications and like, did we have the systems where OK, we know that when we want to say that we can get to our people, but you get larger, you got to start sharing resource sharing territory.

Bill Bush

And so people that we they had not we hadn't developed the ability to make that smooth. And, you know, and that's a constant problem. It still is. I mean, we can go back and take this test. And I was like, We that's the other thing is people think it's it's a static thing.

Bill Bush

Oh, we have trust. We're done. Yeah, trust is like roller skating uphill. You're never sitting still. Yeah, you're either going forward or you're moving backwards.

Patrick McCalla

That's good. That's a great analogy. Yeah.

Bill Bush

So I think that's the mistake.

Patrick McCalla

And you know, with these good analogies, should become a preacher.

Bill Bush

Yeah. Yes.

Bill Bush

I've tried it once or twice.

Bill Bush

I don't know. Yeah.

Bill Bush

But yeah, so so you get that. I think that's why it's so critical. And then I think the other thing is, once you've established in the end, you know, do that. I think a lot of leaders do understand, like one of the talks I try to talk to two young leaders in church planters is especially as you

Bill Bush

get larger. I think people underestimate. What I consider one of the greatest tools for a leader to do when you're trying to move someone, and that's a simple question. I think it's the greatest question you can ask somebody if you're in that tight spot.

Patrick McCalla

What's the question? Do you trust me?

Bill Bush

People try to dance around this idea, getting people to chat, you're in meetings, and I've seen a lot too. I used to be this way. I get feisty and, you know, I might won the argument. But when you're in a leadership team and you're just trying to get vision cast and you're trying to get them to go

Bill Bush

with you. There was lots and I knew more information. I had a bold I can speak, you know, I could I could land all the things you.

Patrick McCalla

Can sell.

Bill Bush

And I could win and and a friend of mine, he's on our staff leader. But he poured into me, you know, leading up way back when we first met. And he he looked at me once after one of these meetings when I was a younger leader and I like I, Dom and I completely won that room.

Bill Bush

I know I won the argument, but I didn't win the room and he looked at me and he says, You know what? I've been watching you. You have all the right answers. You're a strong arguer and you basically won that battle, but you're not winning this war because you didn't turn anyone.

Bill Bush

Yeah.

Bill Bush

And I learned as I started to lead more. one of the ways you can help turn a room is instead of just giving them more information and more arguments and more. This is why we should do this when you feel that resistance.

Bill Bush

Even though you did give all the great stuff, yeah, you have to realize it's a matter of trust, yeah. And sometimes all you to do is stop, look someone in the eye and say, Do you trust me?

Patrick McCalla

You know, and there's another trust me, there's another layer there, isn't there, because I've heard this somewhere and I've seen it to be true. The higher you go in leadership, the less you hear, right? So when you ask that question, you as a leader then have to go out of your way to try to create an environment

Patrick McCalla

where they feel safe enough to answer that because I think there's a lot of leaders that maybe are going to listen to this and are going to go back and ask their team, Now, do you trust me?

Bill Bush

I think about, Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Patrick McCalla

But they're saying yes, because it's actually not a safe place to say no. So there's there's that's where we talk about skating uphill, where you're always working to create an environment where if someone for some reason doesn't feel safe or doesn't feel that they can trust you right now, that they could say that yes.

Bill Bush

And that's you have to build that. That's the part that takes the work and what I've learned and humility. Well, and I think a lot of guys don't want to ask it because one, you're afraid of the answer if they are honest.

Bill Bush

Yeah. Or two, you've developed an environment where they're going to say yes, because if the virus fears so you have to unpackaged that you have to say no, really? What is it? Because if if they give you that blanket answer, you got to learn that nuance of saying, Yeah, seriously, come on.

Bill Bush

I just I need to know. Yeah. And if you don't trust me, you can ask why. And the way I built it for me personally is is over time in critical moments when I can tell there's a sense of pushback.

Bill Bush

I go, Guys, do you trust me? Yes. All right. I'm not saying that the thing that you're giving push back is stupid. These are definite risks. These are definite issues. These are things we're going to deal with and this might happen.

Bill Bush

I know that might happen too. I'm just asking if you trust me, will you go with me and we'll go down this road? And then what you do is how you continue to build that trust is when they do it, even if they even if someone said, I trust you when they really didn't.

Bill Bush

If they turn out to be right. You have to the next time you're talking. You have to own that. You have to look at the room and say, Listen, I asked you guys to trust me and you know.

Bill Bush

Fred, you were right. Yeah, yeah, you were right, and you know what, so next time we go in is we got to factor that little bit more. I, you know what and how do we handle this anymore when you have to handle the problem instead of ignoring it, say Fred, how do you think we can't?

Bill Bush

Because you're the one that brought up this concern and it happened. And you know, and then when you do that, even if it goes wrong, because a lot of people think the only way you build trust is, follow me.

Bill Bush

And as long.

Patrick McCalla

As we everything's working out, yeah.

Bill Bush

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They think the only way to win people over is to win. Yeah, but sometimes you can win people over when you lose. Wow. And yeah, and well, yeah.

Patrick McCalla

But in losing, that's that humility. Then it's almost like, I'm doing a plug for Patrick Lindsey. Only here, I'm not. But there's another book where he wrote, where he talks about an employer, staff person that you want. A great leader is always going to be humble, hungry and smart.

Patrick McCalla

Right?

Bill Bush

We use that humble part. Yup.

Bill Bush

You got to have that humility. And then I like even an older leader. Go back. Date ourselves. John Maxwell. Yeah, yeah. He wrote a book called Failing Forward. Yeah. He goes, Everyone falls down that. But someone who's smart will pick something up off the ground while you're down there.

Bill Bush

Bill Bush

The only time our tours went backwards. You know, people were leaving this area. And we actually had to reduce our budget a bit. And the only way we could back then was we had to like drop a few staff people.

Bill Bush

The problem is we were a size the church that we only had a couple of people that had a legitimate salary and then a lot of people that were part time or barely. And so it was either we got to let like four people go or one person that actually gets paid more that that's not.

Bill Bush

And we had an area where and I had a husband and wife and they're both working for us, and I basically said, Hey, I'm going to have to lay off for a while. Yeah, I would love to bring you back it.

Bill Bush

And because what his job is, it wasn't as necessary. But his wife came to me and said, Hey, I get it. But here's the mistake you're making. My husband may not his job may be the one we can live without, but he is the most pastoral of all of you pastors that you have.

Bill Bush

He is the heart of the pastor's heart that shepherd end and you kind of need him around. And but, you know, she looked at me, she goes, But you know what? I will do you trust me? Because yes, I trust you.

Bill Bush

And that's why I'm telling you this. I think you're going to realize you made a mistake. Well, we laid him off within two months. We came back to the drawing board, says we have got to find the money to bring him back on staff and in front of the whole staff.

Bill Bush

I come on how the wife told me and she goes, and she was right.

Patrick McCalla

Well, you beat me to my question, so I was going to ask you or give me an example of a time where you did fail and you earned trust in how you reacted to that. So that's what you're saying.

Bill Bush

Yeah, I owned it in front of the whole room. We brought them back. Everyone, you know, celebrated and it was like we found the money somewhere else and we learned, and you know what? That made them both, trust me even more.

Patrick McCalla

Well, trust is one of those things. It's a hard thing to get in. An easy thing to lose, right? Like how how do leaders lose trust? We were talking about how will you get it? But how do you lose trust?

Bill Bush

I think when you don't follow through. I think it's been interesting with, you know, Tom Brady is retiring, is he not that kind of nails now he's saying hat and say, I don't know what's going on, but he's obviously like the goat of all time.

Bill Bush

And in the quarterback position, what's made him great is he's not only won a lot, he's been known to elevate everyone around him. And in one of his interviews a while, but I remember it was one of the interviews, and he just did it as a throwaway kind of like a throwaway line as everyone stops.

Bill Bush

So that's he says, you know, I might not be. Who knows if I'm better than everyone else, basically three things, but I know this. I will outwork everyone else. Mm-Hmm. No one is going to on. My team is going to.

Patrick McCalla

Outwork, and he's still known for that, isn't he like?

Bill Bush

And I think that's what part of what draws people to say, Hey, even if he and you know, and then when he does not have a good game, it doesn't mean everybody knows that guy worked hard for all of us.

Bill Bush

He didn't just get to the top. And I think that's the thing that that I still fight with, you know, 20 years in. You got, you know, big organization is I still got to wake up in the morning, say, Listen, yeah, I can't let you know.

Bill Bush

My team outworked me. I got a I got to. You got to lead from the front, you know, not not too far in the front. You know, they say you get in front, your leader too far, you're now a target because now you look like you're the enemy, you're.

Bill Bush

So far away. So yeah, that's.

Bill Bush

Another way don't get so far out there that you're not communicating. And then I think the way you lose trust that one of the things that we did get in the survey that we thought, Wow, this is really cool to find out where people gave feedback was, we said, this is one of our our values.

Bill Bush

And it's proven out, but still, you got to fight it all the time. It's I've sensed it. I feel like I'm always going to our higher level leadership because guys, are you still doing this? And that is you got to let leaders lead.

Bill Bush

It's interesting when when an organization, a leader goes, I want leaders, but what they're really saying is I want really loyal followers.

Patrick McCalla

That is so.

Bill Bush

True because if you are going to lead leader, my dad taught me that he was military leader and he said, Listen, if you want to lead a leader, you got to learn how to live with the leader. Yeah, yeah.

Bill Bush

And leaders are going to push the let me pass.

Patrick McCalla

You say.

Patrick McCalla

That again? That was a good line.

Bill Bush

If you want to lead leaders, you got to learn how to live with leaders and leaders are always going to push the aren't like if you have really good leaders, they're going to want to run up there with you.

Bill Bush

And sometimes a young leader is going to want to sprint ahead of you and you got to know how to do that. If you're just frustrated with them all the time and you're just you're creating policy to slow them down.

Bill Bush

It's like, what are you really looking for? Mm-Hmm. And so what we try to live by is let leaders lead. And that's, you know, one part of that principle is is it's been thrown. And I don't even remember who originally said this, but it's been around forever is the idea that don't celebrate, don't separate responsibility from authority

Bill Bush

. And that's what a lot of organizations do, and that creates distrust.

Patrick McCalla

Separating responsibility from.

Bill Bush

Authority. I give you a responsibility. This is your area ministry. But yet a lot of the authority to make decisions on what you're going to do on how to do it, don't come back to you. Yeah. first of all, that's going to frustrate an actual leader, an actual leader.

Bill Bush

If you're not a leader, you're just a manager that likes the job. Hey, I'll do what you tell me to do and fine. But but then they don't get it done. And then the other thing it hurts is, is in the end, that breeds distrust is how do you evaluate that leaders if you've never let them do

Bill Bush

what they said they wanted to do? Yeah, and now they're not. They're failing. How do you hold them accountable when they didn't get to do what they want? Hmm. So it breeds distrust, but it also, on the other hand, being the higher level leader as you lead other leaders, it gives you a way better, trustworthy moment to

Bill Bush

sit in a value, say, Listen. Yeah, this isn't working. Yeah. And we've given you the resource you've been able to. No one stopped you. Yeah. So it's a lot easier to grow them because they're not going to argue with you.

Bill Bush

They're going to trust you because they're going to say, we have trusted you. Mm hmm. So now you should probably trust us that look, what's happening? Yeah. And so I think that's part of the thing that breeds distrust is and as you got harder as we hit like 100 staff people, it gets harder.

Bill Bush

Yeah. Because I can't control it when we're smaller, I can almost see, like you said, I see who's not doing that. I go, Hey, listen, I know that now. It's just if I hear you there and I'm pouring in the lead team and because we got to watch out for this.

Bill Bush

And then as you get larger, you know, we say you try to keep it as simple as possible. Yeah, but you know, a simple structure for a large church is way more complicated than a simple structure for it's not a one size fits all and it gets.

Bill Bush

And so what happens is that you build a team. I think what helps breed this distrust is you have, you know, you take care of like, well, one way I made a mistake in breeding distrust is because you have two types of people that that are kind of leading in a church.

Bill Bush

You have people that go out and make things happen, and then you got the people that need to come alongside them and you got that. You got the marines that take the beaches of Normandy. But then you have the Corps of Engineers has to come build build.

Patrick McCalla

Structures and.

Bill Bush

The roads and in the in the dock system so you can keep the supplies flowing.

Patrick McCalla

And and those are usually totally different personalities.

Bill Bush

Different personalities, and you need both.

Patrick McCalla

Yes.

Bill Bush

And the problem is early on, I knew that they fight because what happens is you want to be efficiently effective. Mm hmm. But a lot of people that are more about they can reverse that, especially you're more organized people.

Bill Bush

They sometimes want to be effectively efficient. So which one is the goal, whichever you say, so is the goal efficiency. The goal is always effectiveness. But the other side, they don't even think about efficiency. They're more like, I just want to be fact.

Bill Bush

Like, No, no, no, you need, but you got to keep in the right order. And I made a mistake early on when I was trying to battle that as we grew kind of go, how do these people work together?

Bill Bush

Because the one side wants to policy everything organized and you do, you do need plans. But we say around here you plan so you can pivot. Hmm. And then some people, all they do is pivot. But if you get a basketball pass to you and you're pivoting and you just pivot, all you're doing is going in circles

Patrick McCalla

. Yeah.

Bill Bush

So, so so.

Bill Bush

You got to have a plan. You can then pivot. But then other people say there's no pivoting, there's just the plan. And I made this the mistake. I made that bred distrust from my my more administrative minded team members.

Bill Bush

I called it chaos creators and chaos organizers, which the people that run out and create. They love that term. Yeah, I just go. I just turn the beaches. It's a chaos. It's a mess. But you know, that's what I do.

Bill Bush

That's we go. Take the territory decline. Well, I learned that people that like to organize things have a great revulsion to the word.

Patrick McCalla

They don't even want chaos.

Bill Bush

And chaos is not.

Bill Bush

Always.

Bill Bush

Wrong. Yes.

Bill Bush

Always wrong. It doesn't matter if I used a bad word. Yeah. And you know what I built. They didn't trust me anymore. They thought I was the enemy. Now it's like he doesn't get it. Yeah, he doesn't get it.

Patrick McCalla

We're trying to solve the problem of chaos.

Bill Bush

And instead of making them heroes and showing how they can be heroic, I discouraged them and made them seem like problem causes. Mm hmm. Like, we're coming in and ruining all this.

Patrick McCalla

You know, you know, even with that story, though, it goes back to what you said earlier where it's like trust and leadership. It's like roller skating uphill. You can't ever stop. You're always learning, right? There's a there's another bump in it or there's a crack in the sidewalk or you're going uphill or there's a little rock.

Patrick McCalla

There's another thing that you have to overcome like you can't ever stop, right? But but why I love that is that goes back to self leadership too, right? It's the same thing with that. If someone's listening, they're going to well, I'm not really leading an organization or a team or anything, but you're leading yourself.

Patrick McCalla

It's the same thing. What worked for you five years ago may not work anymore because you're in a different setting. You're in a different place in life, right? Yeah, yeah.

Bill Bush

And you also could turn this around and lead up with it. Yeah. Like, if you're in a position like some of the stuff I said resonates you, not as the leader resonates with you, as a leader, but as a as a as like, you're not the top dog in your ad and you feel like they don't let

Bill Bush

me lead. They don't let me do this. You know what? What if you can lead up? But what if you met with your manager, your director? Yeah, and said, Hey, do you trust me? Because I think I can help you.

Patrick McCalla

So that's a question from a leader.

Bill Bush

Yes, I think I go, I think I can help you because I think you spend so much time trying to control everything I'm doing. That's probably you could do better things with your time. Here's what I want to do.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah.

Bill Bush

Can you give me the room now? Trust me and let me go for it? Yeah. Like, sometimes they don't even realize it sometimes. You get leaders and managers that they don't even know, they think their job management is more like, I just move chess pieces.

Bill Bush

Yeah, instead of, you know, and then you know what they end up being, another phrase we learn is, is is what a leader needs to be. If you're going to lead a team is you need to be the bulldozer, not the barrier.

Bill Bush

And so that happens a lot in management, especially middlemen. They feel like there the the barrier, they're there. They're the ones I got to stop and I go, But you know what? Leaders are supposed to break out, we're supposed to go take like.

Bill Bush

So if you become the gatekeeper, like I'm the gatekeeper of letting you go, it's like, No, no, no, no, you need to be the one that helps knock gates down. You need to win. What do you need? You need to be the the bulldozer.

Bill Bush

But a lot of people, like if you're out there and you're not a leader, you go, Yeah, that's exactly the problem with my leader. Will, then you know what? Try building trust the in reverse order. Yeah, instead of if you trust me, follow me.

Bill Bush

Yeah, say if you trust that I know what you want.

Patrick McCalla

Let me do this.

Bill Bush

Let me do.

Patrick McCalla

This. Yeah. Yeah, well, that's that is so good. So so let me just practically speaking, let's say someone's listening and they're working in a situation where they feel like they're working more with the gatekeeper. Yeah, right. So they're going to try to go ask that question and say, OK, do you trust me?

Patrick McCalla

Let me try this. And hopefully they have a situation where the person does. They're a good manager leader, they see, and so they start building trust. What would you what advice would you give to someone, though, that tries that a couple of times and it goes nowhere?

Bill Bush

Send your resume to rejoin church and we'll talk.

Patrick McCalla

All right. I thought you would say it's.

Bill Bush

Like at that point if you if you know you got to, there's actually two ways. first, are you humble enough that why did they say they don't want to trust you with OK?

Patrick McCalla

Because it could be because.

Bill Bush

What if they're not trying to be a what if they're literally seeing some stuff in you that's holding you back and they literally if they have an answer, yeah, maybe humble yourself and say, Are they right? Or am I willing to listen to them?

Bill Bush

Mm hmm. Like they go, I would. But you know, here's the things I'm concerned with. Yeah, well, take it. Yeah, and see if you can apply it.

Patrick McCalla

So the first thing is just to be humble enough to listen to Bill.

Bill Bush

Maybe there's a reason.

Patrick McCalla

Feedback they're giving. Yeah, but.

Bill Bush

If they just don't get it, yeah, and you try a few times and they just won't. They're like, That's just not how we roll around here. Then I think you're going to have to decide, well, how important is for you, like if you're happy, like, you know what?

Bill Bush

I tried, but you know, and I guess, you know, I don't hate the job doing it this way. Well, then, you know, enjoy it. Do it. But if it's bothering you, then you're probably going to have to, you know, start looking around and see what's going on.

Bill Bush

I don't think I don't think the best thing to do is to is to be a disloyal sower of rebellion within your organization.

Patrick McCalla

Which is what often happens in situations where.

Bill Bush

A lot of you sit on the back of the bus yelling about the bus driver all the time and it's like, you're better off. Just, Hey, can you drop me off at this bus stop or.

Patrick McCalla

Get off the bus?

Bill Bush

I'm going to find a bus going a different direction, you know? And because all that's going to do is stress you out. And also all it's going to do is if you left the organization. Wouldn't you rather leave with them saying, Hey, we believe in them, they were great, they left, they ended well.

Bill Bush

Yes, yes. And that'll set you up better for the future. But yeah, I think you can. You can try to lead up. You can listen, you know, and be humble yourself. And then if if that doesn't work, you know what you got to do and you got to start looking around, you know, and if if you know

Bill Bush

the especially, you know, if you're. If you're like me and you and know the Lord and trust Lord, you start praying about it, you know?

Patrick McCalla

Exactly, exactly. I love your answer because again, using the analogy, the bus we sit in the back of the bus. Be humble enough to to to recognize. You know what? Maybe that bus driver does know more than me and can give me some insight into me.

Patrick McCalla

But if you stay in the back of the bus and you're humble and you thought through it and it's just there going to be a gatekeeper, nothing's going to change. You're just going to get bitter and anger, angry and cause all kinds of discord on the bus.

Patrick McCalla

Just get off the bus and go, Yeah.

Bill Bush

And sometimes it's weird. It's like, I know you're moving on, but you believed in this organization, especially if it's a church. Yeah. And sometimes when you leave a church, you like, I have to, you know, blow this place up.

Bill Bush

But no, you don't, because you're like, Well, they're never gonna learn. I think about it if you have a manager and you move on and that keeps happening. They don't learn. Well, then, that either the organization, the next higher up, we'll learn, because the way they're gonna learn is like, why does this person keep like going through

Bill Bush

? Mm hmm. Hmm. You know, decent staff. Yeah, they'll either take notice or. Even beyond them, the whole organization from top down is led that way. Yeah, well, then you know, sometimes the only way they're going to find out.

Bill Bush

Is when they just. Yeah, that's the way they're going to be, they're going to just never really get anywhere.

Patrick McCalla

They start sliding backwards on their roller skates down the hill.

Bill Bush

Bingo.

Patrick McCalla

But but but that may take a while and.

Bill Bush

It may take a long time. It depends on how big the hill is. You know, they might not know it. And so if you just leave and blow it up, guess what? You gave them a reason to blame.

Bill Bush

You know, you're just you're just nasty. You're just not. You just don't know what you're doing. You're just angry. You're bitter. You know, they're they're not. So if you even really want your parting thing to help them, if they're not going to go is to go well.

Patrick McCalla

Wow, that's such great advice, because I guarantee you there are some listeners that are in those kind of situations, and if they take this advice and will maybe humble themselves to really evaluate, is my manager boss? Are they speaking some things that are truth and I need to take that advice if they're not to end well.

Patrick McCalla

Finish well with whatever they're doing. That's such great advice. So. So let's before I ask you the two truths in a lie. Yeah, let's just wrap up with this. What practical advice would you give to to me, all of our listeners about how to lead well with trust is a parting way to just say, Hey, maybe start

Patrick McCalla

doing these things right now in your life like one of them you said earlier was ask people, Do you trust me? What are some other things I think?

Bill Bush

Well, there's the obvious things like if you say you're going to do something, do it. Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. Be consistent. But I think in a more, well.

Patrick McCalla

Let me just jump in really quick. We say that's obvious, but I think when we talk about self trust, that's one of the biggest things that we write. Yeah, I'm going to start eating healthy and it's always tomorrow.

Patrick McCalla

I mean, no, no, I'm talking to myself right now.

Bill Bush

Yeah.

Patrick McCalla

But you know, you're going to lose trust pretty soon where you even know internally, I say I'm going to start eating healthy, but I'm not really not. So that's that's part of that right away.

Bill Bush

And I think that's where as a leader, you need some community. You want community within the organization, but if you're like me, if you're the top leader, you don't ever stop like, you know, I think that model of Paul's and Timothy and then Paul actually had truth tellers.

Bill Bush

Fred, he had Barnabas and people in his life. But then so he started off like a Timothy. Then he became Paul. But he continues to have. Yeah. And I think you should always have a Timothy and appalling life.

Bill Bush

If you're a leader, you have Timothy.

Patrick McCalla

So explain what that means to someone.

Bill Bush

Well, Paul was, you know, I became a believer in rose up and was a great leader. And he basically wrote two thirds of the New Testament planted, you know, a ton of.

Patrick McCalla

Talk about leading at.

Bill Bush

Any rate, going to say he would go start a church, raise up leaders and leave. And Timothy was the guy who wrote a couple of letters to. He became kind of like a son to me, actually called him like a son.

Bill Bush

And he he wrote to him all the time, and the last letter he wrote was to Timothy encouraging him in his leadership. And he always encouraged and built up other leaders. And so you have this Paul Timothy thing, and I and I think everyone, you start off as a Timothy with a Paul in your life.

Bill Bush

But then when you become the Paul, sometimes you forget you're also still a Timothy. There's someone out there that you got to have some truth tellers in your life that if you're going to stay consistent, you need people that don't.

Bill Bush

You know that that will like, like not just buy into the image that everyone has of you. That won't just because sometimes you start believing your own press clippings, you know, VIDEO And you need people that that are that'll do that.

Bill Bush

And I have several mentors in my life that I'll say, OK, here's my issue. And yeah, and they're honest enough to get what you know what you did that I'm like, I you know why? Yeah. And my wife is really good at two and she's she's she'll just look at me and be like, OK, well, you think

Bill Bush

, why? So you need that? Yeah. So you need to find people that are that are willing to to that know you and are willing to be honest with you. And even if you argue with them, you're willing to go, think about it.

Bill Bush

Yeah. And you know, you have that. Be consistent with that and stay true to that. But I also think it's it's just like every day go, what am I called to do? Like, you know, you have the issues like, why do I not do this?

Bill Bush

How do I struggle with this? And you got to keep the main thing? The main thing? Don't, can't do everything. Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick McCalla

Well, that's what what do you call to do?

Bill Bush

And that's what they do to keep trust. one of the things that someone else is great team. And it was it was it was actually one of my chaos organizers who was a high level leader that I frustrated to no end because using the word chaos.

Bill Bush

But she really helped our operation stuff, and we used to ask like if we had an idea, like, can we do this? And she coined this term that I've used so many times was was we can do anything, but we just can't do everything.

Bill Bush

That's so good and we can do any anything.

Bill Bush

We can't do everything. We just can't. That's true.

Patrick McCalla

Of us as an individual or an organization.

Bill Bush

And I think that's where you lose trust is when you start getting excited about everything and try to do everything. Guess what, you start dropping balls. Things aren't as good people start to doubt and and it's like, OK, but when you focus and we go, OK, well, if we really think this is the most important thing to

Bill Bush

do, a lot of times you're already at full tilt. So a lot of times when we have something new, we're like, OK, what are we going to back off on? Yeah, yeah. What are we going to stop? And I think how that helps build trust in a practical way, especially if you have a team, is a lot

Bill Bush

of times the team feels like, do you know what's really going on here because you came in with this new direction, you added it, but. We still have all this stuff. You can't just add stuff that's not sustainable.

Bill Bush

Yeah, and that's a lot of us, we feel like as leaders say, Hey, the way I'm going to get trust is I need momentum, I need a victory. Yeah, you do. But but when you get a victory is, do you just keep running from one unsustainable victory to the next?

Bill Bush

Because every time you win, you're like, OK, where's this going to go? Well, now we need all this structure. We need all this. And it's like, we can't just keep adding, You kill your team.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah.

Patrick McCalla

Which goes back to they start losing trust.

Bill Bush

They start losing guys like, Oh, I'm pouring in this. This worked and I'm now I'm developing this. But what's coming next?

Patrick McCalla

We've won a lot of battles, but the war is over there.

Bill Bush

And yeah, and in the war's over here and now and now we have to keep sustaining all of this. We have we have all these. Don't don't make the mistake, you know, like Germany did Hitler's like, don't start a two front war when you don't have the resources for a different war.

Bill Bush

Yeah. And and I think leaders, we get overly excited all the time and a lot of people with vision and leadership reason they lose trust is we lose interest in things really fast.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, yeah. That's how we're wired. As leaders.

Bill Bush

We like to chew bubble gum for the flavor and the sugar not to blow bubbles. Mm hmm. And the problem is bubble gum is design. It has the sugar, but you're to blow good bubbles. You literally have to chew until the flavors gone because you have that granulated sugar in it.

Bill Bush

It doesn't blow a good bubble till the sugar is gone. And I know the problem is a lot of us vision.

Patrick McCalla

You spit the gum out we go.

Bill Bush

Not that I've lost the taste. We didn't blow the bubble yet. Yeah. And so you don't stick around long enough, you don't stick to it and you just jump around. And that's one of the most practical things I've seen a lot of guys do is they try to do everything and especially a new a new startup company

Bill Bush

or even a new church, especially. You start up and you do not have the resources, but you think to compete to get everyone. I got to do everything what you can't do everything. And so you spread yourself, then you burn out your leader, you really burn out your volunteers and then they don't trust you.

Bill Bush

And then you know what? And people don't trust your church and organize because everything you do is not done very well.

Patrick McCalla

And and that's so that's so good. Years ago, when I was helping to turn around an organization, I wrote two words on two index cards and just put in my focus and urgency. I was like, Man, we have to have a sense of urgency, but you can't have an urgency for everything.

Patrick McCalla

It has to be a focused urgency. And so what you're saying, I'm going to take that away from what we've talked about today. Where, where, what this? She said to you, we we can do anything. We just can't do everything.

Patrick McCalla

Man, that's so good. So Bill, let's finish with this. It's kind of ironic that I'm going to ask you to lie because this is no gray area. Yeah, that's the name of the podcast. And I'm going to tell you, give us two truths and like, we do this with all our guests.

Patrick McCalla

They've heard you speak in here for 30 minutes plus, and I know you pretty well, so hopefully I can figure this out to choose an ally. Let me see if I can figure out.

Bill Bush

This is Arwa, because I know you knew and I've told lots and a lot of things I would try to do. Yeah, wouldn't fool you because we've had such long conversations about this because you always try to find something that's I wouldn't believe that, but you know, all of those.

Bill Bush

So I just went with some jobs I've had. OK. All right. So I'm going to give you three jobs that.

Patrick McCalla

I got to pick which one.

Bill Bush

And two of them? I've had one of them.

Patrick McCalla

I did. OK.

Bill Bush

OK, so in before I got into ministry many moons ago, I have been a pool cleaner. OK, I have been a security guard. And I've been a teacher.

Patrick McCalla

Oh, man.

Patrick McCalla

OK. The security guard and teacher right away, I'm going that's got to be it, you know, like if if they're watching, have your your coat on, you got some.

Patrick McCalla

Guns on, you know, you could you could make a good security.

Patrick McCalla

Guard. PE teacher.

Patrick McCalla

So I'm going to go.

Patrick McCalla

I'm going to go with those are the two truths. The lie is the pool.

Bill Bush

And you are good.

Bill Bush

I got it. You got that so quick. I didn't even think of the way that you figured it out. Yeah, like, yeah, I.

Bill Bush

Thought grew up in Arizona. I obviously probably clean pools. But yeah.

Patrick McCalla

You make a.

Patrick McCalla

Good bouncer, except as you're so nice and you're smiling all the time, you know, I just.

Bill Bush

Can't see you like that. But why.

Bill Bush

Didn't last.

Bill Bush

Long? Yeah, I got.

Bill Bush

A job as a security guy at night. It was a nighttime. Thinks I was working these night shifts. Yeah, and it was just like overnight. Yes, I would go in like I would. Sometimes it was. The early shift would be I went up 3:00 p.m. to 3:00 a.m. Yeah, but a lot of times it was like.

Patrick McCalla

Bill Bush

978.

Bill Bush

eleven two. Yeah, it was like these long shifts and it was it was brutal.

Patrick McCalla

By the way, there's another thing not only are we wearing matching coats today, there's another thing we have in common. So for four years when I was going to Bible College, I was a night shift security guard in Chicago.

Bill Bush

Oh wow. We're gonna have another thing.

Bill Bush

You lasted longer than me. I walked off the shift in quick mid shift at one point.

Bill Bush

Yeah, oh, it's.

Bill Bush

Brutal. They sent me to a horrible part of town in this apartment complex. It was just, yeah, it was scary and it was supposed to be an armed post, but I wasn't old enough to be armed. Yeah. So I'm sitting in this post and it has the the post.

Bill Bush

Or, you know, when you do security, here's what you need to do. You got to go check around and all this. And it said, this is an armed man, someone the manager guy with a pencil just drew a line through armed.

Patrick McCalla

You were unarmed and an armed guard post. Yeah, and.

Bill Bush

The uniform they gave me had a bullet hole in the pants.

Bill Bush

From that. That was it before. That was a pretty clear sign.

Bill Bush

They started sending me to these dangerous things that I walked out and I saw, like crimes happening right away, right in there, and I saw a crime happening and was like, it's the police thing. Like, they go, Oh, it's just the security guard.

Bill Bush

And they went right back to what they're doing. I was like the unarmed security guard. I'm going home. Yeah, I don't.

Bill Bush

Need this job. It was and then the, you know, big nights just messed me up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was that was fine.

Patrick McCalla

Well, Bill, thanks so much for taking the time. Really appreciate it. I learned a lot today. I know the audience learned a lot as well, so keep at it. Congratulations again. For 20 years, the celebration just had this last weekend.

Bill Bush

So well, thank you. Thanks for having me. Good to be here. Yep. I hope there was some helpful stuff for people out there, for sure.

Patrick McCalla

Thanks, man.

Host

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