Natalie Patrice Tucker, Spotify, Senior Accessibility Lead

Natalie Patrice Tucker talks about her early work as a political organizer in Washington, DC. She found her way into accessibility, first through work at the federal government, then into independent consulting. She talks about improving her skills through reading, networking, finding mentors, and conferences like CSUN. Now she is leading the effort at Spotify to make the experience delightful for all abilities. 

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(compelling string music)

- Hello, this is Digital Accessibility:

The People Behind the Progress.

I'm Joe Welinske, the creator and host of this series,

and as an accessibility professional myself,

I find it very interesting as to how others

found their way into this profession.

So let's meet one of those people right now

and hear about their journey.

(compelling music)

All right, we are back with another episode

where I get to visit with accessibility professionals.

And today, I am pleased to be speaking

with Natalie Patrice Tucker.

Hello, Natalie, how are you today?

- I'm so great.

Thank you for having me.

- Well, I'm happy to have you here

for this podcast episode.

It's great to have you involved.

Where are you talking to us from?

- I live in Atlanta, Georgia.

- All right, well, I'm across the country

in my home office near Seattle, Washington.

- Oh, oh, that's so great.

I love Seattle.

It's so gorgeous, especially right now.

- I've enjoyed my visits to the Atlanta area as well.

- (laughs) I'm new.

I just moved here a few months ago.

I was in the Bay.

- Oh, all right, so big, big change for you as well.

- (laughs) Yeah.

- Well, a good place to start is always

what we're up to currently.

Why don't you tell us a little bit about

your current position and what that involves?

- Absolutely.

So right now, I serve as senior accessibility lead

at Spotify, and that means

that I support digital accessibility

across our platforms and products from the Spotify app

that everybody knows and loves to Anchor and Soundtrap

and all kinds of fun things.

- Well, I wanna hear more about the specifics

of what you have going on at Spotify, but you like usual

with this interview, what I like to do is kind of go

back in time and find out the journey

that brought everyone to what they're doing today.

So, maybe you could go back and let me know

how this has fit into your life and your work,

and we can kind of move back up to where we are today.

- Absolutely.

So, (laughs) I tend to tell folks I've been doing this

since the beginning of the dawn of time,

but what happened was that I got my heart broken.

This was in the early like 1998, 1997.

And I decided that I was going to...

I was recuperating at home in Lynchburg, Virginia,

and decided that really what my life was for

was I wanted to save the world.

And so I just made a plan to move to Washington DC

to work in nonprofits, because the DC Metro area

is the nonprofit capital of the world.

And so I just didn't know exactly where I would land,

but I figured I would find a way to make a difference.

Well, eventually I became a political organizer,

working to enact a living wage law in Montgomery County,

and it was amazing,

but it was also heartbreaking, backbreaking work.

But the tiny little organization that I worked with,

there were basically seven of us,

and this tiny little Access database

was like the heart of this organization,

but it was a total mess,

and really nobody had the chops to really use it

to its best ability.

And I was like, okay, well,

this is how I can make a difference.

So, long story short of it is that

I taught myself some SQL and revolutionized this database.

And then I decided

that I was gonna support nonprofits on technology.

And along the way, some of the nonprofits

that I was working for

I was working for smaller nonprofits

that had consistencies in developing countries

like the Washington office on Africa

or the 50 Years is Enough campaign.

We had people with slower internet connections

or maybe older browsers and older devices.

So we really had to be concerned about things

like performance and accessibility

and interoperability and all kinds of things

that at the time,

the internet was kind of the wild, wild West.

And there were just all kinds of things happening

like Flash and one by one pixel GIFs.

It was horrifying.

So those tiny nonprofits asked me to build them websites.

And not knowing how I was like, okay, I'll do this.

I taught myself to do that

and got really, really, excited about the standards.

And at the time, there was this new standard,

the WCAG, Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0.

And then there was also like this huge push

around using the standards to build the web

and what that would make possible.

And I was just like, oh, this is where it's at.

And eventually, the federal government,

this was in early 2000, went looking for folks

who had a background in developing

against the WCAG guidelines.

And so I went into the the federal government.

I worked at like the IRS and HHS and built websites

and newsletters for them.

And it was awesome, but I wasn't really excited

about working in the government.

It didn't thrill me. (laughs)

And I felt like I wasn't learning.

And so I reached out to this wonderful, wonderful gentleman.

His name is Tom Babinski.

He had a accessibility to consultancy in Northern Virginia.

He's a brilliant, brilliant man.

I think he's at IBM now,

but I was just like, "Basically, I love what you're doing,

"and I wanna make sure that I can continue to do this work.

"I would love to work with you."

And eventually I started work with him,

and then I built my own consultancy.

And about that time,

the standards were in the process of being updated

to WCAG 2.0, which was a sea change.

And the standards were harmonizing all over the world.

And eventually and slowly was surely, (laughs)

the United States legal framework really started

to enforce digital accessibility to such a way

where it was really I was doing a sort of a niche

kind of a thing and really working hard

to be able to do it.

I got the opportunity to work

with bigger and bigger organizations

and more and more engineering teams.

And that's sort of the long version of how I got (laughs)

to where I am today.

- I mean, you cover a lot of things there,

but I mean I like to go back and you checked

in with a couple of those places,

because part of this is, is helping people understand

how they can get involved and understanding the challenges.

And so you mentioned, first of all,

getting involved in doing that initial work

on your own in those early web development times

after WCAG came out, and that's also after the section 508.

had just come out a few years before that.

So like, at that time, I imagine,

you had to pretty much scramble to find the resources

and to educate yourself in accessible web development.

- Absolutely.

Then as now,

the internet is just an incredible, incredible resource.

And so part of how I sort of got my feet wet

and learned was like actually reading

every word of the standards

and looking up the people (laughs)

who were authors of the standards

and kind of low key stock in them a little bit.

And then somewhere along there, LinkedIn came along

and I started to reach out to folks.

But even before that, like getting a mentor,

having Tom Babinski and the mentors I've had

along the way to be able to...

I am not a native screen reader user,

and I found it deeply, deeply perplexing.

And while I was in incredibly excited

about the technical pieces,

I was just like really befuddled

about how screen readers worked

and what was expected behavior.

And in the early days, I was doing a lot of testing

and a lot of really deep hands on work

like trying to build delightful experiences.

So, it was always kind of a sticking point to me

that I wasn't a native assistive technology user,

and I wanted to get a little bit better with that.

And that's why I reached out to Tom.

He's a blind man technologist,

and he really just was really encouraging.

And so, I think all along

and following the folks that I did, their work,

I had the like opportunity to connect

with Jim Thrasher who's since passed,

but this was a long time ago, just enough to say,

your work has really made a difference for me

and thank you so much.

And he was incredibly incredibly gracious.

And it was things like that along the way where I was like,

am I doing this?

What am I doing?

Am I doing this right?

That really made a difference

- Well, yeah, I'm glad you bring up the mentorship aspect,

because that is so critical to us,

finding our way in this area, where for the most part,

you can't find it in formal education.

We have to find it through our collegial friendships

and colleagues at work. - Absolutely.

You mentioned you became involved with government agencies.

What were some of the challenges that you experienced there?

You wanted to move away from that,

but were there any certain things

that were particular blockers for you

in what you wanted to do?

- I think it was really the pace

of the way decisions were made

and new technologies were adopted or considered.

Like you can see that even

in the 10 years it took for the Access board

to adopt WCAG 2.0 after it was initially released

as a standard, or just sort of harmonize on the that

as a digital accessibility standard.

So, I just found it, personally, very frustrating.

We weren't allowed to use certain browsers.

We weren't allowed to download,

and VDA was just sort of getting started.

I wanted to use that,

'cause it was a more accessible solution

and all kinds of things,

financially accessible solution.

I think also a little the hierarchy.

I really got gungho.

I was really on this mission to create a web

that worked for everyone.

And I thought it could happen,

that that was the way that it could happen,

but the pace and hierarchy made me go,

maybe there's another way.

- Well, going on to be an accessibility consultant

and more or less working for yourself,

that's definitely the other side of the spectrum

where suddenly you're you're able to get involved

with a lot of projects that are very interesting to you,

but also a lot of organizations, even today,

still aren't ready to invest in accessibility.

And so that can be a challenge,

but how was it as you started doing consulting work?

- Well, so initially a lot of my consulting work came

from like I was a subcontractor.

Like someone would have a contract with the government

or have a contract that required accessibility,

and then hiring me to work with them

or the engineering teams that were building,

whatever it was.

And so, it was hard,

because I wanted a career in accessibility

but they were gigs, if you will.

It was sort of a hodgepodge of piecing together gigs

while also trying to make sure

that I stayed on top of what was happening.

Like all of my training and development budget

was 100% on me.

All of my travel and education, conference budget

was 100% on me for quite some time,

and that made it difficult.

In the early days, it was like a dream

to be able to go to CSUN,

which is the accessibility conference that happens

in San Diego once a year.

it's the oldest sort of conference of its kind.

I mean, I would read the talk backs

and watch the proceedings that I could from afar

and really wanted to go,

but it was just financially inaccessible

to me for a long time.

And going was really actually a big catalyst.

It allowed me to see, oh, I can do this.

And I am doing this.

I have been doing this,

and, oh my gosh, like lots of people wanna know

what I already know.

Like I'm always looking for ways

to make opportunities to have like networking

and have folks learn from each other

more and more available.

- Yeah, well, bringing up the conferences,

that's another excellent way to get involved.

You mentioned that the cost of it,

which is difficult for people

that are maybe just getting involved in the practice

that aren't supported by their (indistinct).

- That was the case years ago.

But nowadays, especially with COVID,

thank God in a way for this global pandemic

making digital accessibility more accessible.

So we have virtual conferences recently

that have just been top notch and top tier.

like for example,

from the Accessibility Toronto Conference.

There's so many more options

for like meetups and small conferences

or regional conferences

than there were back even when I started.

- Sure, and we're able to bring in people

that maybe weren't able to get to Anaheim or San Diego

for travel purposes, and as we move forward,

I imagine we're still gonna have Zoom or whatever media

as a major component of our events from now on.

- Hopefully.

- And yeah, so you were talking about your work

with accessibility consulting,

and then where did you go from there?

How'd you get to where your positioned now?

- That's a great question.

Let me think about this a bit,

because there was some time that it looked crazy

like it looked like it might not be the smartest idea

for me to be pursuing this career,

because there was a lot of uncertainty.

If folks would hire me, I would do what I'd come to do

and say, oh and now we can move on to usability.

And we can actually do automated testing,

and let's do all the things.

And they would be like, no, we're done with that.

I'd be like, well, I'm still an accessibility person,

so I'm gonna keep doing this. (laughs)

And so would have to sort of find my way

to the next opportunity to make a difference.

That was a big chunk of the beginning.

And then when the WCAG 2.0 guidelines came out and the ADA

was being fully enforced

and like just a number of changes culturally

just brought digital accessibility

to the forefront where I would...

Because I had at that point been doing this work

for about 10 years, it was a lot easier,

or it sort of became I had a pick of the litter

in a particular kinda way.

There are more opportunities to do exciting things

than there were.

There was of me.

And that's also says a lot to our community too,

because in the beginning, (laughs)

I had a joke with a colleague

that in the beginning we could all count each other

to (indistinct). (laughs)

like we're the Spartans or something,

the early 500 people.

I don't know, there were probably more of us,

but it just felt very...

Like I was surprised when I met

the first other person of color who was I doing this work.

It was a technical person doing this work, for example.

There are more roles available.

There are more opportunities to begin

inside of this work than there were, which is very exciting.

- Well, what's a day in the life or a week in the life

for you now as an accessibility professional at Spotify?

- Oh, yeah, so, I lead our efforts to ensure

that we're building delightful products

across our offerings.

And, ugh, I have a lot of meetings.

I have a lot of meetings.

I meet with individual engineers on questions they may have.

I meet with members of my team

around how the program is doing.

So, Spotify had accessibility

and been doing a lot of accessibility work

before I came on in April,

but decided that they really wanted dedicate their time

and resources to ensure

that it's taken care of throughout the enterprise,

which is why I came on board.

I've been doing a lot of foundational work,

making sure that we have the right people on my team

or making sure that we're connected to the right partners

in the different business units,

looking at the landscape

and negotiating with vendors for support,

that sort of thing.

So I have a lot of meetings, (laughs)

I have a lot a lot of meetings.

- Sounds like you're really busy.

Are there any projects

that you are particularly passionate about right now,

or looking into the future,

are there any places that you think you want to get to?

- We are doing such exciting work,

and I'm really thrilled about where things are going

for the entire ecosystem of our products,

not just in terms of accessibility,

but usability in general.

I'm hoping that we'll have some pretty exciting things

to share out around December 3rd,

which is International Day of Persons with Disabilities.

And other than that, I will keep it mum. (laughs)

- All right, well, that's fine.

But yeah, I imagine you must feel a certain amount of weight

and responsibility being involved with a product

in a company that's so widely used

throughout the world

and sort of a mainstream consumer product

that almost everybody is familiar with,

even if they don't work with it.

So does that put a little extra stress on you

or did I just by mentioning it? (laughs)

- (laughs) Well, you know, I myself am a Spotify user

and have been since the very, very beginning.

And so I understand the vehement love for the product

and what's possible.

And so when people come up to me

with praise and with criticism, I'm so excited to hear it.

And I'm so thrilled to be a part of making this thing great.

That has been so great for me.

- Well, Natalie, it's been a pleasure

to speak with you today.

Thank you so much for sharing your journey

to get where you are today, and hopefully I'll maybe see you

at a CSUN event in the future.

- Absolutely, absolutely.