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Noelyn - "Times change, people evolve, things evolve, and it's the time now for new money!"
Episode 982nd February 2024 • Orange Hatter • Tali Lindberg
00:00:00 00:49:28

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Bitcoin Adoption in Africa: Empowering Women with Noelyn

In this episode, I'm thrilled to bring you Noelyn’s inspiring story and her journey into the world of Bitcoin. Born and raised in Kenya, Noelyn experienced the harsh realities of the 2008 financial crisis, a pivotal moment that steered her towards studying financial engineering in college. Her quest for financial security led her to explore various investment strategies. Noelyn shares her insights from working in the banking and tax industries, revealing how these experiences highlighted the constraints of centralized finance and ultimately drew her towards Bitcoin.

"With self teaching," she said, "once you get the Bitcoin bug, it itches you, you want to start telling the whole world about it."

Currently, she's making a significant impact at Exonumia by translating Bitcoin content into Swahili, thereby increasing accessibility and understanding of Bitcoin in Africa.

This episode also touches on a critical issue: the societal expectations for African women to secure financial independence before marriage as a safeguard against economic vulnerability and marital abuse. Noelyn passionately advocates for greater female participation in the Bitcoin community, emphasizing the role of decentralized finance in empowering women. Tune in for an enlightening discussion about financial independence, empowerment, and the transformative power of Bitcoin.

00:00 Introduction

00:03 The Struggles of Women in Kenya

00:27 The Importance of Educating Women

00:50 Welcome to Orange Hatter Podcast

01:11 Exclusive Retreat for Women in Bitcoin Space

02:35 Interview with Noelyn: Her Journey into Bitcoin

02:47 Noelyn's Background and Early Interest in Finance

03:02 Noelyn's Experience with the 2008 Financial Crisis

04:54 Noelyn's Career Journey and Exploration of Investment Options

04:58 Noelyn's Experience in the Banking and Taxation Sector

12:31 Noelyn's First Encounter with Bitcoin

14:39 Noelyn's Transition from Traditional Finance to Bitcoin

15:23 Noelyn's Advocacy for Bitcoin

15:44 Noelyn's Father's Reaction to Bitcoin

17:25 The Challenge of Unlearning Traditional Finance

22:20 Noelyn's Talk at El Salvador

23:42 The Impact of Financial Struggles on Family Life

25:15 Cultural Shifts: Delaying Marriage and Childbearing

26:59 Empowering Women through Bitcoin Education

27:32 The Ripple Effects of Financial Dependence

30:16 The Journey into Bitcoin

31:06 Translating Bitcoin Content into African Languages

32:52 Overcoming Challenges in Bitcoin Adoption

37:06 The Role of Mobile Money in Bitcoin Adoption

39:49 The Importance of Self Custody in Bitcoin

44:18 The Future of Bitcoin in Africa

46:18 A Call to Women in Bitcoin

48:19 Conclusion: Join the Bitcoin Community


*** Check out the Orange Hatter Women's Retreat at www.orangehatter.com/yucatan ***

To learn more about Bitcoin: Join the Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.  Please email to Tali@orangehatter.com for the private telegram group and zoom link.

HODL UP is available at www.freemarketkids.com.

Remember: Knowledge is empowerment! 🍊🎩

Mentioned in this episode:

Aleia Free Market Kids Sponsorship FULL

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Transcripts

Speaker:

. Noelyn: In Kenya , we live a day

at a time hand to mouth, basically.

2

:

The husband is the, breadwinner, once he

leaves most women are left without means.

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:

So it is in the back of the

minds of a lot of women.

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:

We have lots of cases of abuse in Kenya.

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:

I We saw a huge rise in divorce.

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:

Finances was a major issue

especially if the woman is

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:

dependent on the man, 100 percent.

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:

it's a huge deal.

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:

Let's educate the women because

after all, women are the majority

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:

population and around here,

women are quite the educators.

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:

If you educate a woman, they

educate their husband, they

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:

educate the community around them.

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:

That way, we can have women being

able to take care of their families,

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:

taking care of themselves, whether

you are married or unmarried.

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:

Tali: Hey, everybody.

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:

Welcome to Orange Hatter.

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:

My mission for the Orange Hatter podcast

is that after tuning in and hearing

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:

about everyday women's stories and

their path to Bitcoin, you'd think,

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:

Hey, if Bitcoin made a difference for

them, maybe it could do the same for me.

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:

I'm so glad you're here.

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:

And I know you're going

to love today's episode.

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:

Welcome.

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:

Aleia: Hello listeners.

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:

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:

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Let's make this retreat a

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Thank you for tuning in and

here's to empowering your

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:

path in the world of Bitcoin.

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:

We can't wait to welcome you.

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:

Tali: Welcome Noelyn to Orange Hatter.

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I'm so happy to have you here.

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And I can't wait to dive

into your Bitcoin story.

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Noelyn: Thank you for having me Tali.

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I'm also glad to be here with you today.

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Tali: Awesome.

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Let's dive into a little

bit of your background.

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Noelyn: Yes.

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So my background in terms of

education , so I have a background

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in finance and accounting.

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What I studied in school means

actually is the financial engineering.

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What drove me actually funny thing

to learning this was I experienced

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something when I was young during the

:

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but I happened to be affected by the

crisis, the financial crisis, and I became

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curious about money from a very young

age of uh, I saw the effects that the

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crisis had on my family and yeah, I just

wanted to go ahead and learn as much of

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about money that as I could, and that's

what drew me to learning about that.

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Yeah.

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Tali: Would you mind if I asked

you to share some details that

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you remember from that time?

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It sounds like it made

a huge impact on you.

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Noelyn: Yes it did.

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my dad, My dad used to work

in the banking sector and when

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the crisis happened in the US.

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The ripple effect here was

that, of course, you know how

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banks are usually asked to go

ahead and collect their assets.

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And unfortunately we lost

a lot as a result of that.

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And he ended up also

losing a lot financially.

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So maybe I can say I learned

recently that it was more of from

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a financial trauma point of view.

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Good or bad, I'm not sure, but I

think it, it had a huge impact to

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determining my focus or my trajectory

and especially getting here.

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So it's something that I'd always

wanted to know and learn how money

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works because I was curious about it.

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Tali: You didn't just want

to learn about economics.

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You actually went into the nitty gritty,

the financial engineering side of it.

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Noelyn: Oh, yes, I was looking for ways

to avoid risk from a very young age.

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And it's funny because now after

I had cleared, because I was

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studying business in high school.

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And when I got into campus, the

same thing, I just wanted to do

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something to do with related to money.

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So financial engineering

was the best option.

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And after I left now, this is where

it gets even more interesting.

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Okay.

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My internship was in a banking

in the banking industry.

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And I ensured I understood

everything that occurs in the bank.

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This is actually the first

time I'm mentioning this.

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Interesting.

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But yeah I Went ahead and learned

everything that I could in the

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banking sector and I did not like

the bank because I thought it was

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very monotonous working there.

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So even after my internship, I left and,

now with working in terms of getting

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job opportunities, it's not very easy in

Kenya, so it took me a while to be able

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to get into the sector, basically working.

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But when I was doing that, with the

few amount of money that I had made,

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or rather had saved, I wanted to look

for ways in which I could invest it.

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And the first time I remember I tried

investing, there was a product that had

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been released by the money markets in

Kenya, it's a T bill, but instead

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of having the huge amounts of money,

it was in just small quantities.

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I remember I saved it there first and

after I had saved it, what I received

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at the end of the year, it's something

like, if I could have worked hard, I

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would have received even within days.

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And I was shocked because I'd expected

with the interest rate that I would

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receive a huge amount of money.

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So I took my money out and I went into

shares and also a disappointment because

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:

especially if you're young and you try

to get into investment, you realize

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soon enough that either you need a huge

amount of money to get into it and in

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Africa, Australia, like investing in

companies chances of them failing are

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quite high and we've had lots of companies

fail here with Australian share prices.

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They plummet.

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There's Very few companies make it.

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That was my unfortunate

or rather fortunate event.

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So basically all throughout

I was just trying to find out

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something that I could invest in.

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You end up realizing sooner or later that

you might work for the rest of your life.

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And yeah, I guess that was

me in terms of my background.

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Especially when learning about

money, I had to do it practically.

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, Tali: when I was going through

school, people always talk about,

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There are two ways to earn money.

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There's one way, which is

using your labor, and one way

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is to use money to earn money.

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And we learn very quickly in

society that the money part is

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what makes the difference, not

necessarily your labor, I think.

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Noelyn: yeah!

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Tali: So that's why I'm very fascinated

that you went into financial engineering,

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because When I was in business school,

the people who went into financial

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engineering were the brainiacs.

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They were their super, super smart people

who would create derivatives on top

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of derivatives on top of derivatives.

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And I will always have to sit and

think so long about how this money

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is coming, like being creative

because it's so mind boggling.

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Noelyn: Yeah.

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And it's so funny.

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You end up realizing that derivatives

are just people trying to figure

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out ways to manipulate the

system in order to make profits.

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And I think that's the unfortunate

thing that not many people get

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to understand this language.

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So unless you study it.

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It's like it opens up your eyes.

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I think that's why it's easier

for people in finance to just

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switch on to Bitcoin quite easy.

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It opens up your eyes to

what exactly am I doing here?

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What's the end goal?

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And for financial engineering,

I did the derivatives.

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I did the derivatives.

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It never made sense to me.

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And I think even like the most

important topic I should have focused

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on and being taught was the crisis

because we had talked about Crisis.

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From the black Monday

crisis to the dot com crash.

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But and eventually you realize

that at the central point of all of

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this were people making decisions.

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And people using these same derivatives

that are learning about to come up with

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yeah, just ways in which money should

move or money should be allocated.

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And eventually there's the end

result, which unfortunately

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leads to the loss of income.

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Livelihoods are affected

by this worldwide.

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Tali: Yeah, you see very quickly.

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That , you have people who are on the

in, and people who are not on the in.

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Noelyn: yeah.

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Exactly.

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Tali: Do you mind if I

ask you how old you are?

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Noelyn: Oh, no, I'm in my late 20s.

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.

Tali: What you're doing being so active in this space is so encouraging

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because this is a young people's world.

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Not that it doesn't affect absolutely

everybody, but you guys are going

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to be the ones that make the

difference for this evolution.

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So I'm very excited to talk to

you about where you are now.

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So somehow you found Bitcoin

and let's talk about the

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first time you heard about it.

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Noelyn: Okay.

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Besides the financial trauma side of

it now that we're even talking about

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being women I, there's that desire

where you want to be a mom, you want

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to have a family and work life balance.

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Australia nine to five here.

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It's not that easy.

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And I was looking for a way out.

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I wanted if I want to start building

a family and I wanted a way in which

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I could be able to earn leisurely.

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I could be able to make time while

I do that, while I raise kids.

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And I looked at my options.

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So that is the other thing,

looking for financial freedom.

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So after now the internship, I

hustled a bit here and there.

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I ended up working for the

government in taxation.

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People are usually surprised.

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I know.

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Yeah, so I, while I was working there,

it just opened me up to a whole lot of

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things that were basically just, odd if

I may put it that way in terms of how

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the government runs the financial system

in terms of how taxation is applied.

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And I don't know whether it was

just me who was realizing it.

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Actually, if you're in it and

you're profiting from such a

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system, you do not really see the.

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challenges with it because after

all they're paying my salary.

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Why would I question why we are imposing

this tax and especially imposition of

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tax and people don't even have education.

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So tax education around

here is not quite good.

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And you have people lining up paying

taxes, and they don't even understand.

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Penalties are quite high.

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And I was supposed to be the

educator, but then you realize that

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even the regulatory authority isn't

focused on educating people on

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how they're supposed to be taxed.

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All they want is, you get the

penalty and you get taxed.

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So this was One of the reasons

when I thought I when people work

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in such organizations, government

organizations, they never want to leave.

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They want to stay there till retirement.

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I did not see myself doing that.

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I wanted to figure out I like working

in the sector, but I wanted to work in a

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sector that's impacting people positively.

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Tax collectors are not the

favorite at all in this country.

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And I wanted to find something

that can be impactful for people.

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So besides working towards having to

raise a family and looking for work

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that can be impactful, I decided I

was going to start educating myself.

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That's But I had come across Bitcoin

the very first time in:

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was still a student back then.

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This was just a friend who was

mining Bitcoin back then in campus.

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And I just happened to come across

them and they told me about it.

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They mentioned it, but I didn't

pay keen attention to it.

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And they were like, you know

what, this is the future.

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Funny thing, even that friend

left Bitcoin, but came back later.

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So I read about it and I was

like, wow, this Bitcoin, but in

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campus, you don't really have

that much money to buy Bitcoin.

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I wish I would have even sacrificed

a bit of lunch and bought them.

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But anyways, it's a bygone.

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I had the tap to be, you remember

Zappos, that wasn't a bank

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then, it was still in Kenya.

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There are still people mining

Bitcoin in Kenya at that time.

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But not so many people, very

few people understood it.

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I used to tap to play and earn a few sats.

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I remember I called Zappo back recently

when I figured out what it was all about.

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I'm like, I still want my sats back.

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And they were like, no, it's gone.

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But yeah, after learning, clearing my

school, now going through this working

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journey while I was still in taxation,

I decided to self teach myself because

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I realized I had missed something.

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When there was a tourist who had

come to Kenya after they leave

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at the coast and around here we

have lots of tourists coming in.

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I interacted with with a couple of

them and I just used to hear them talk

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about crypto and traveling on crypto.

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So I met one who was specifically

traveling on I was like,

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how do you mean you are not?

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You can't be able to just

sit still and work somewhere.

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You can't be able to travel like this.

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So I felt I missed something and they

were kind enough to teach me and of

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course, to the teaching, they started

teaching me the trading part of it

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because they were doing all of crypto

but I had the background of Bitcoin

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and I had the background of, trying to

always avoid risk from my childhood.

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I knew the risk that comes with bank.

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I knew the risk that comes with people

being at the center of making financial

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decisions So it didn't take me a long

time when people say they went through

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the crypto Phase it didn't take me

long to realize there's something I

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missed here because with crypto there's

body making the decision at the top,

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but with Bitcoin, it's decentralized.

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So it was very easy for me

to just move towards Bitcoin.

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And with self teaching, once you get the

Bitcoin bug, it itches you, you want to

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start telling the whole world about it.

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So that's how I found myself.

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I just looked for the first social

media platform that I knew I could be

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able to talk to people about it easily.

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And I just started talking about, I

bought my first Bitcoin, it wasn't

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much, that time I was still working.

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And then I just started teaching about

Bitcoin, I was like, you know what,

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even if I don't get my social financial

freedom, maybe I could be able to reach

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other people so that they can see there

is a problem with having centralized

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decision making when it comes to money.

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And yeah, that's how I just

started shouting about Bitcoin

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everywhere to everyone.

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Yeah.

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Tali: So my first question is about

your dad who went through that

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trauma of the financial crisis.

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When you first came across Bitcoin

and you're starting to talk

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about it, what was his reaction?

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Noelyn: Oh, wow.

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It took him a while.

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It took him a while.

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Actually, when I said, I was leaving

my government job, which no one leaves.

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And so it took him a while to

actually agree or understand.

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But eventually.

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It came, he understood it,

also being with a background

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in banking, he now don't believe

that, yeah this thing is real.

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Of course, with the age factor, it's

still difficult for him to navigate

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it, but nowadays we, I send a few sats.

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He can be able to understand

what it really means.

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But yeah, I might say it

really did take a while.

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Surely him imagining that we can have

money that is not controlled by anyone.

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And in my country, Kenya, there's

a lot of money laundering.

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We call it it's called wash.

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So when people see you dealing in money

that is not Planted the government.

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They think you're more like a scammer

and he was worried about that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, but I don't

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Tali: Yeah, I bet.

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It just sounds like he would be so ready

to hear about a better alternative,

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Noelyn: like they're so

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Tali: than what, what burned his boat,

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Noelyn: i'm used to this system, I don't

want to Be told that it's been a lie.

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Even at my young age, I was

very sad to figure that out.

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So I can imagine you'd

rather just filter it out.

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And that's the unfortunate part.

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We have been with the company

I'm working with onboarding.

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People who are older, it's it's a

struggle trying to explain it to them.

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It's what they've known their whole lives.

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So how can I, a young person, come and

tell them, you know what, times change,

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people evolve, things evolve, and this

is, it's the time now for new money.

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Tali: I think you hit the nail on the

head when you said It's hard for them

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to believe that it's all been a lie

because being a much older person than

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you I made major life decisions based

on what I was told and what I learned

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and I Every step of the way I was trying

to make the right decisions so I can

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imagine People who are even one or two

generations ahead of me turning around

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looking back and go I can't believe I

was part of the whole scheme You know you

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Noelyn: How did you be

able to turn around?

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Maybe you can give me a few tips.

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What changed your mind?

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Tali: For me, personally,

I was very resistant.

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My husband started hearing about it

on the podcast that he was listening

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to and he was like, hey, Tali.

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This Bitcoin thing.

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I think it's something we should look

into and I said, I don't understand it

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I'm not a computer person and I honestly

don't have time because it was a few

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years ago My kids were all in school.

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I homeschooled them.

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So their school was my school

and I was I had no break.

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It was like a 24 7 job and

Honestly, I just wanted him

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to stop bugging me about it.

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I was just like, can you please

stop talking about this thing?

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I do not understand what it is.

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How can it possibly be money?

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And honestly, I think if I have been

something physical like gold I could wrap

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my head around that, if people want to

exchange something that's physical, but

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especially because it's digital and I

don't even know how to set up a wallet.

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I don't know where the money goes.

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I struggled when our banking system

went digital and online, like for the

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longest time, I didn't, I still brought

my checks to the bank to deposit it

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because I was not doing mobile banking.

343

:

I was not doing mobile deposits

because what happened to the picture

344

:

of the check, my mom still refuses.

345

:

My in laws, they will not do it.

346

:

They won't do digital banking at all.

347

:

They still take the check

into the physical bank.

348

:

But what ultimately convinced

me is the game behind me.

349

:

I don't know if you can see it.

350

:

So Scott, he spent two years trying

to convince me and in the process he

351

:

basically created this game and he

goes, Talia, you have to understand

352

:

this because it's important.

353

:

Yeah.

354

:

So it's a board game.

355

:

It's a tabletop board game.

356

:

And it just explains the basics of

blockchain technology and how Bitcoin

357

:

mining works and what a Bitcoin.

358

:

And once I got over that mental

hurdle, then I was willing to read

359

:

a book and listen to a podcast.

360

:

And then, you go straight down

the rabbit hole once you do that.

361

:

But for me, that's what it took was seeing

something digital represented in physical

362

:

form, because I'm stuck in that mindset.

363

:

Noelyn: Maybe you should

try and do that over here.

364

:

Because the challenge is

the unlearning process.

365

:

Once you are calm enough to unlearn,

then it opens up eventually for sure.

366

:

Yeah,

367

:

Tali: Yeah, I think for all of us older

people we just have the mental hurdle

368

:

To hop over because the world has

changed so much since the time we were

369

:

young, when I was going to university,

nobody had a computer in their room.

370

:

Nobody had a phone.

371

:

You had to walk from the

dorm to the computer center.

372

:

And the screen was just The

black screen with the white,

373

:

letters that would go across.

374

:

There's only one font.

375

:

And the entire computer

center had one printer.

376

:

So you have to send your

print job to the printer.

377

:

And then you gotta walk over and stand

in line to pick up your print job.

378

:

If you go back even

further, when I was younger.

379

:

We were playing in the dirt, we were

using little marbles that you kind of

380

:

flick into little holes that you dig out

with your nails, really basic stuff, my

381

:

kids can't relate because they grew up

in the age of iPads, they were already

382

:

out, the phones were already out.

383

:

And so for them, it's not a huge

mental shift for us and older people.

384

:

It is such a mind boggling chasm

that you have to cross mentally.

385

:

Noelyn: is not technology, this is money.

386

:

What do you mean the money is changing?

387

:

That's huge.

388

:

Yeah.

389

:

Tali: This theft that's been going on of

their life, because if you think of your

390

:

job as you, or when you're earning money,

you're exchanging your lifetime for money.

391

:

If you're being paid.

392

:

Per the value that you provide, right?

393

:

So to realize suddenly that you have

worked your whole life and people

394

:

have been stealing from you the

whole time and you didn't realize it,

395

:

that's a really hard truth to take.

396

:

Noelyn: Yeah.

397

:

Actually, my talk at El

Salvador was talking about that.

398

:

If you get to listen to it on

YouTube, that's that's exactly

399

:

what I was talking about.

400

:

I grew up in an era where I was

told education is the key to the

401

:

future, but you didn't mention that

the kind of education I'm receiving

402

:

is not really as beneficial to me.

403

:

It's supposed to just make me work

for the government and not, and

404

:

like really working for myself or

really stop working at some point.

405

:

It's unfortunate.

406

:

You find someone's a doctor, they earn

good money, but Still, you have to

407

:

figure out how you can fight inflation.

408

:

So you have to become a doctor.

409

:

You have to know taxes.

410

:

You have to know investment.

411

:

All in one as a single person.

412

:

And if you never had the

knowledge, you end up losing a lot.

413

:

And yeah, I guess that's where we're at.

414

:

Tali: I gave a talk at a homeschooling

conference a few months ago, and , in

415

:

the talk I said to the parents who are

sitting there, they're all homeschooling

416

:

parents, and I said, when you talk to

your kids about growing up and getting

417

:

a job or choosing a career, how many

jobs do you tell them they would be

418

:

working, once they choose a career path?

419

:

And they all said one.

420

:

And I said that's just not true.

421

:

Because everybody has to have two,

there's one job to earn your money.

422

:

And there's a one job to

try to keep your money.

423

:

What kind of time does that leave

you to focus on your family?

424

:

You mentioned that family is very

important to you and you're doing

425

:

this so that one day you can have the

family life that you envisioned, right?

426

:

But if you're working two jobs

just to survive, then the kids

427

:

take a backseat because they must.

428

:

And a lot of people are in that boat.

429

:

Noelyn: I was listening to I think

Natalie Brunel also was talking to

430

:

the crypto couple the other day,

and she mentioned the same thing.

431

:

She was told as a lady, work, become the

girl boss, because she was doing that

432

:

so that she can get to a point where

she's It feels financially confident

433

:

to be able to have kids in this case.

434

:

Unfortunately we need two incomes

in a household and that's just it.

435

:

So even the ripple effects, we're going a

little bit deeper, but I feel the ripple

436

:

effect of fiat is women are delaying,

but men are getting frustrated out of it.

437

:

I don't know about your generation.

438

:

You guys are good.

439

:

Us, people don't even want to get

married anymore because they're

440

:

thinking, what's the point?

441

:

And this is not just something

that's happening in the West.

442

:

Kenya is quite influenced

even by the Western culture.

443

:

So even here you get Girls just want to

work and work, and with that, you delay

444

:

marriage, you delay a lot of things.

445

:

Men are also frustrated, they're

also trying to , gain a living.

446

:

The societal effect of the family is

also, it can be felt, or rather it

447

:

will be seen in the days coming, yeah.

448

:

Tali: I was going to ask you about

that because, my understanding

449

:

of the African culture is that for

women, children is their wealth.

450

:

Is that still up until recently?

451

:

Is that still something

that's very cultural?

452

:

Noelyn: Yeah, okay

wealth for female, girls?

453

:

In most cultures, actually, when a

man gives birth to kids the wealth is

454

:

mostly transferred to the male child.

455

:

They still assume that the female

is supposed to get married, and

456

:

be supported by the husband.

457

:

But of course now with things

changing even we find that not

458

:

many ladies are getting married.

459

:

So Progressed families, you'll be

able to get yourself in a situation

460

:

where you can be able to get married,

although you can get people to

461

:

get inheritance from your father.

462

:

But the other side of the coin is

When you can't be able to have that,

463

:

you are forced into probably getting

married so that you can be able to

464

:

support if you want to, that is.

465

:

But with that, you can get things

like abuse, which is quite common.

466

:

depend on your husband.

467

:

Unfortunately, it's really financial

financially depending on your husband.

468

:

We have lots of cases of abuse in Kenya.

469

:

I think of late, especially since

COVID period the rate of divorces.

470

:

I'll just speak for Kenya because it's

not generally in all African countries.

471

:

I can say we saw a huge rise

in cases of divorce because

472

:

finances was a major issue.

473

:

And with it, you get to the root of it.

474

:

Especially if the woman is dependent

on the man, 100 percent for

475

:

finances, it's it's a huge deal.

476

:

So that's why you've talked

about Bitcoin Dada and Marcel.

477

:

I guess for her she saw that and

she was like, let's educate the

478

:

women because after all, women are

the majority population and around

479

:

here, women are quite the educators.

480

:

If you educate a woman, they

educate their husband, they

481

:

educate the community around them.

482

:

That way, we can have women being

able to take care of their families,

483

:

taking care of themselves, whether

you are married or unmarried.

484

:

Yeah, and you don't have to undergo

abuse, especially if you can't

485

:

be able to afford to take care

of yourself and your children.

486

:

Tali: Is that something that is on

the back of your mind, not your mind,

487

:

but is that something that's on the

back of the minds of the women today,

488

:

even as they consider marriage,

that if they ever become 100 percent

489

:

dependent on the husband financially,

that they can be subject to abuse?

490

:

Is it that common?

491

:

Noelyn: Yes, it is.

492

:

It is.

493

:

In fact I can say that growing

up with my aunties they, Will

494

:

tell me go times have changed.

495

:

Don't go ahead and get married to a

man until you have something going on

496

:

for yourself and even they encourage

you even as a married woman, have

497

:

something going on for yourself.

498

:

Besides that is anything

will happen to your husband.

499

:

And as I've mentioned, investment in

Kenya is not knowledge that's Available

500

:

to everyone, not, we live a day at

a time hand to mouth, basically.

501

:

So not so many people are

investing for their futures.

502

:

And if you find, if the husband

is the head of the household or

503

:

the breadwinner, once he leaves

most women are left without means.

504

:

So it is in the back of the

minds of a lot of women.

505

:

Majority of the women right now, it's

been conversations that have been going

506

:

on for a decade, if I can say a decade

plus, where they're encouraging women to

507

:

have something going on for themselves.

508

:

Tali: So there is, it sounds

like there's a new standard.

509

:

That sounds, I don't know if that's

the right word, new standard, but

510

:

instead of getting married young and

starting a family right away, the new

511

:

generation of women, they are trying

to be more independent and delaying

512

:

marriage and delaying childbearing.

513

:

Noelyn: Yes.

514

:

I would say this is especially

mostly for the really educated,

515

:

like highly educated women.

516

:

That's majority, not all of

them, but majority of them.

517

:

We have also the extreme cases.

518

:

So in the rural areas, girls

are getting married young, but

519

:

it's also for the same reason.

520

:

You figure out as a girl, I need

somebody to take care of me financially.

521

:

So that's the other side of the coin.

522

:

Just to avoid having to be

a burden to your family, you

523

:

decide, okay I'll get married.

524

:

And of course that has it's benefits, but

also now the abuse you were talking about.

525

:

Tali: It's so fascinating that

this is the new movement.

526

:

It's also really encouraging

because women have a way of figuring

527

:

things out and then passing on.

528

:

So if you become educated yourself,

not just in traditional education,

529

:

but in financial education,

You are the best person to pass

530

:

it on to the next generation.

531

:

Noelyn: I'd love to.

532

:

Tali: Yeah.

533

:

Okay.

534

:

So tell me about your work.

535

:

You sound like you're so busy.

536

:

You're traveling all over the place.

537

:

What are you doing?

538

:

Noelyn: Oh getting into Bitcoin.

539

:

Fascinating.

540

:

So after screaming around on

Twitter I was approached or rather

541

:

I started looking for Bitcoin jobs.

542

:

That's the first thing you do because

you realize you can't be able to work

543

:

in fiat and And I'll be able to keep on

buying fiat or selling fiat for Bitcoin.

544

:

So I was like, I need to find

ways to just get Bitcoin.

545

:

And but before that I was too focused

on getting the message out because I

546

:

was like, you know what, if everybody

comes into Bitcoin and we find people

547

:

coming into Bitcoin, then I wouldn't

have to my work will be easier.

548

:

So I ended up working in

a company called Exonumia.

549

:

Exonumia carries out translation of

Bitcoin literature into African languages.

550

:

For example, I speak Swahili in Kenya.

551

:

Swahili is spoken by

around 200 million people.

552

:

So you find Kenya, Tanzania, Rwanda.

553

:

Uganda uh, a bit of Burundi, also Malawi

even Sudan, a bit of South Sudan, you

554

:

can find people who understand Swahili,

Somalia, so it's a widely spoken

555

:

language and I was requested to maybe

start translating Bitcoin content into

556

:

Swahili and it was exciting for me.

557

:

I managed to translate the

Block Size Wars by Jonathan and

558

:

Layered Money by Nick Bhatia.

559

:

Exonima has actually done

translation in Uganda.

560

:

It has done translation in South Africa.

561

:

It has done translation in

West Africa, Ghana, Nigeria.

562

:

It was a good team to, to work with.

563

:

The translation is still ongoing, because

the major barrier, actually, in Africa

564

:

is We speak different languages and

not so many people understand English.

565

:

So if you want to get Bitcoin to them

educating them through a language

566

:

they understand will be the first

thing that you can be able to do.

567

:

And so after doing the

translations I happened to meet

568

:

built with Bitcoin foundation.

569

:

They have built a school in Kenya.

570

:

The, some place called Ukambani, so

we went there, we with a team of also

571

:

Bitcoiners in Kenya there's Master Gwantai

was organizing it, and he approached me

572

:

and he was like, we're going here, we're

going to teach people in the rural area

573

:

of Ukambani about Bitcoin, if you have

time, you can join us, so I joined him.

574

:

On that trip and while we were

there, it was teaching Bitcoin

575

:

already is difficult enough.

576

:

Teaching Bitcoin in Swahili,

teaching Bitcoin in uh, one of

577

:

us had to go all the way teaching

Bitcoin in now the native language.

578

:

Kenya has 22 ethnic tribes.

579

:

So he was teaching in one of

the ethnic tribes that's Kamba.

580

:

So when we were done teaching

we realized the whole group of

581

:

people, in fact, they asked us now

you've told us about this Bitcoin.

582

:

So how can we get Bitcoin?

583

:

Because they understand hard money.

584

:

One of the ways in which people

invest in Kenya is through land.

585

:

So that's the go to when it comes

to long term investment when people

586

:

make a huge amount of money they

go directly into real estate.

587

:

So they understood the concept of

inflation, we didn't have to go in depth

588

:

explaining to them because everybody can

say that Kanyashiling is devaluing fast.

589

:

And they asked us now, can

you send us this Bitcoin?

590

:

And it was unfortunate.

591

:

We couldn't be able to send them.

592

:

Where we were, the internet

connection was terrible already.

593

:

And even if you wanted to, there

was only one person in the room

594

:

who had a smartphone because this

was a group of it was a school.

595

:

And now we were teaching the parents.

596

:

And the teacher now was the

only one with a smartphone.

597

:

So we even thought maybe even

if you wanted to send it to the

598

:

teacher, Bitcoin is something

that you should own by yourself.

599

:

It was, it will not

make sense practically.

600

:

And it was on that day, for some reason,

there was a tweet being sent out by

601

:

another an African that If somebody

could figure out, that was Ogin from

602

:

Namibia, if somebody could figure out

how to put Bitcoin into feature phones,

603

:

it would be really amazing for Africa.

604

:

And I saw that tweet I retweeted

it, and I was like, yes, please,

605

:

somebody figure, figure out also now

Kogatso from South Africa, that's

606

:

the founder of Machankura, also.

607

:

So that we can be replied that he

should be given two weeks to do it.

608

:

And within two weeks, he

delivered much on Kura.

609

:

And it was amazing.

610

:

Right now we can be able to

send sats to anyone, even my

611

:

grandmother in the village.

612

:

And even though people have smartphones.

613

:

Internet connection is still quite

expensive for most people to afford.

614

:

So it was a game changer.

615

:

I remember actually saying this is

going to be a game changer for us in

616

:

terms of adoption of Bitcoin in Africa.

617

:

Because not so many people really

have to understand inflation.

618

:

They don't have to go through everything.

619

:

I've gone through understanding risk.

620

:

If they can just see Bitcoin in which

they can send and receive and purchase

621

:

goods with it, then We can be able

to get massive adoption in Africa.

622

:

So I did that, but also after I

translated Nick Bhatia's book, I

623

:

thought that it was necessary for us

to have African stories being told.

624

:

So I decided to get into podcasting

with the Bitcoin layer and

625

:

where I was like, maybe there's

something going on in Africa.

626

:

I.

627

:

I would love to report on it especially

in terms of Bitcoin adoption, because

628

:

I don't know whether you've tried

researching on Bitcoin in Africa, there's

629

:

very few stories, but right now, at least

there's a lot, but when I was Trying

630

:

to, I think what I got was just one

documentary and it was very outdated.

631

:

Yeah.

632

:

When I was trying to learn,

633

:

Tali: Scott and I have talked to

Master Guan Tai actually about the

634

:

game, because we were trying to

figure out how to get it into Africa.

635

:

And we were trying

636

:

Noelyn: get it, I'll buy it for sure.

637

:

Tali: we were trying to figure that out.

638

:

Cause he was like, why

don't you send us one?

639

:

I'm like, sure.

640

:

We'll send you one.

641

:

And I think the shipping cost was

something like 450 for a game.

642

:

I'm like, what?

643

:

450?

644

:

Nobody can, how are we going to do that?

645

:

So we still have to figure that out.

646

:

I'm very curious when you're talking

about the guy who stepped forward

647

:

and was able to now bring Bitcoin

to people in the rural areas what's

648

:

the system that's in place right

now that's allowing that to happen?

649

:

Noelyn: Okay.

650

:

So in Kenya we use mobile money.

651

:

I don't know.

652

:

Have you heard of M Pesa?

653

:

Yeah, so we use M Pesa to

send and receive money.

654

:

Credit, we, I keep on saying we

skipped the phase of credit cards

655

:

I think it's a good thing that we

didn't have to go through that.

656

:

Not so many people have credit cards.

657

:

And one of the ATM cards here, that's

what, although, most of the merchants

658

:

in fact, if I can say a huge number of

merchants accept payments using M Pesa,

659

:

it's a mobile money payment system.

660

:

And what made it really gain adoption in

Kenya was the fact that it uses the U.

661

:

S.

662

:

D.

663

:

platform.

664

:

So with U.

665

:

S.

666

:

D.

667

:

You do not need the Internet to

able to send and receive because

668

:

it uses the telecommunication, the

mobile network, the television.

669

:

So that's the unstructured

supplementary service data.

670

:

So this is what is used to send SMS.

671

:

Thank you very much.

672

:

Yeah, so with that now, when the

lightning network was came about,

673

:

it was easy to implement the

lightning network on this service.

674

:

So that's what he used to come up with a

service and integrating the both of them.

675

:

I have no idea how he

did it, but it works.

676

:

It works seamlessly.

677

:

It works smoothly.

678

:

Onboarding process is

faster than using an app.

679

:

All you have to do is just

send someone a USS day code.

680

:

Once they dial it, they have and register.

681

:

They have themselves a wallet.

682

:

It is still custodial, though currently

in the works we have rather, he has

683

:

managed to come up with a self custody

way also for the feature phones.

684

:

So that should be, if you

can join us in South Africa.

685

:

In January we'll be able to

demonstrate the self custody

686

:

of the same feature phones.

687

:

And I think now that's going to be

even a major game changer for us.

688

:

Because we don't want as a

company to hold anyone's Bitcoin.

689

:

The point is getting people

to be self sovereign.

690

:

And even with the regulations in Africa.

691

:

What I can say, it's a gray area

unfortunately we had an instance in

692

:

Tanzania and Uganda where we had to,

we had challenges with the regulatory

693

:

regulations there celebration in

other countries, the USSD we managed

694

:

to integrate the WhatsApp API.

695

:

So people in Tanzania and Uganda

can still be able to transact.

696

:

But at the end of the day, the main

is to get them into self custody.

697

:

So once we can be able to release the

product, then it will be faster and

698

:

actually much better for us to just

have people hold their own Bitcoin.

699

:

Tali: When you're talking about

self custody, are people resistant

700

:

at all about the responsibility?

701

:

Especially in light of stories that

come out where people's Bitcoin got

702

:

swiped while we were in El Salvador,

there was a guy who lost 25 Bitcoin.

703

:

Noelyn: I saw that.

704

:

I felt quite sorry for the guy.

705

:

I remember I was heading to the

airport and I saw that story.

706

:

That was quite unfortunate.

707

:

So two instances.

708

:

Binance is still a major player in Kenya.

709

:

majority of Africa Binance,

still a huge player.

710

:

So we have the youth who are tech savvy.

711

:

They do not care to get into the in

depth of it well, I'm trying to reach.

712

:

So they, you find that there's still

having the coins on exchanges, but I

713

:

realized I could have also been among

those people who are comfortable having

714

:

my coins in an exchange because of

course you realize and you just decide,

715

:

okay, I'm going to just buy Bitcoin,

but I could have easily also ended up

716

:

just having my coins in an exchange.

717

:

So what I can say is They have

not really either been reached by

718

:

the education for self custody.

719

:

Because unless you go ahead and take the

step towards learning this, or somebody

720

:

approaches you with with this information,

you don't really go searching for it.

721

:

All you are, you're contented you have

Bitcoin, you don't really care why it

722

:

is, whether it's on, or rather you don't

understand the difference between it

723

:

being in self custody or in an exchange.

724

:

But that's the major challenge that

I guess I have and also other African

725

:

educators have with this group of people.

726

:

But I don't think anybody will be against

it once they, because we've seen FTX.

727

:

They've been affected with it.

728

:

So what usually happens exchanges

go down, people lose money and they

729

:

come and say Bitcoin is a scam.

730

:

And that thing was just, it was

unfortunate they didn't even get the

731

:

relevant education to understand this.

732

:

I guess that's a challenge For us

here as educators to be able to get

733

:

this information across and I'm sure

there wouldn't be any resistance

734

:

when I figured out self custody.

735

:

I was like, good, because after

all, we keep, I've told you land is

736

:

the major way of investment here.

737

:

People do keep their title deeds.

738

:

They don't have a problem with that.

739

:

I don't think keeping 12 seed

phrases will be a problem.

740

:

Yeah.

741

:

Tali: That's just something

that I personally struggle with

742

:

just because I'm not tech savvy.

743

:

And I was talking to another woman last

week, we were talking about how there

744

:

are a lot of things in life where we feel

like we have a solid understanding on.

745

:

And then when it comes to Bitcoin, I

always need to rely on a translator.

746

:

It's like a whole foreign

language by itself.

747

:

If something develops or if

somebody raises a question, I always

748

:

have to look to somebody else to

translate the impact of that to me.

749

:

And that makes me feel somewhat helpless

in a way, just because I don't speak

750

:

the language, even though we've been

studying and we understand the impact.

751

:

And You know what I'm saying?

752

:

It just it's this sort of

unsettling feeling of I know, I

753

:

don't know, and I always have to

rely on translators a little bit.

754

:

Noelyn: I understand you fully.

755

:

Even for me, even though I can

say I work for a Bitcoin company,

756

:

it's mostly the developer who

understands most of the things.

757

:

I It usually just comes to my attention.

758

:

Maybe there's a problem when people

are talking about VIP 300 VIP.

759

:

What?

760

:

Lightning going things.

761

:

So that's when maybe I'll put that put in

the effort to just understand the basics.

762

:

But I don't feel we really have to

understand all of this as long as We

763

:

understand the main thing, which is

self custody, and it's in a safe manner.

764

:

Um, All of these things, they

can just go on as usual, yeah.

765

:

Yeah, that's very

766

:

Tali: Yeah, and I think sometimes

knowing too much actually hurts you.

767

:

So just knowing the basics and Almost

I don't know if you guys use PayPal

768

:

or Venmo or something over there.

769

:

But the payment systems, the

people that dab, we don't really

770

:

know what goes on in the back.

771

:

And if they release a new

version, nobody pays attention.

772

:

You just agree, and then you

just have the software update.

773

:

We almost have to get to that

point of trust in this system.

774

:

Once you have your seed phrases

written down and just let the

775

:

technical people take care of that.

776

:

And just make the experience so

user friendly that it doesn't

777

:

even have to cross our mind.

778

:

Noelyn: a huge factor.

779

:

At least you've heard of

Bitcoin Ekasi in South Africa.

780

:

That's it.

781

:

So there's a educational brother,

a circular economy in South

782

:

Africa called Bitcoin Ikasi.

783

:

They've done a fantastic job in terms of

education, teaching the community there.

784

:

And people there are open,

they're open to using Lightning,

785

:

they're open to self custody.

786

:

And right now, even now that

there's Options like phoenix,

787

:

solitary and self custody there.

788

:

They're open to using it.

789

:

So Same case in Ghana.

790

:

We have a bitcoin doer And so what the

educators I know are doing we are focusing

791

:

on wholesome education give people all

the options and Tell them allow them

792

:

to decide which one they prefer to use.

793

:

I like Lightning because it's cheaper for

me to move money in Lightning, yeah, as

794

:

compared to having to go to self custody.

795

:

But if there's Bitcoin I never

want to touch for the next a

796

:

few years, it's in safe custody.

797

:

Yeah.

798

:

Tali: And I think there's just

bugs that need to be worked out

799

:

as the system continues to evolve.

800

:

For example, Scott and I, we were in

El Salvador and it was our first time.

801

:

At a circular economy where we

were able to use our Bitcoin.

802

:

We were so excited, but two

of our wallets didn't work.

803

:

We were trying to make Bitcoin

payments and they didn't work.

804

:

I'm like, Oh my God, no, I'm

stuck because we didn't carry cash.

805

:

We're like, Oh, cash is so old school.

806

:

We're using Bitcoin here, but there

are bugs that need to be worked

807

:

out because we ended up having to

get friends to help us who had.

808

:

Two different wallets.

809

:

So there were four wallets that we

were experimenting with there and

810

:

Yeah, so it's just you almost have to

see it as a game Like you're playing

811

:

and you're having fun in the process

while you're learning So, okay.

812

:

So before we wrap up, what would

you say to women who are sitting

813

:

on the fence about Bitcoin?

814

:

Noelyn: For women who are sitting

on the fence about it, I know a lot.

815

:

If you're a woman and you have

been looking to add value in the

816

:

world, and you're yet undecided

on where you want to work, I feel

817

:

Bitcoin is a good place to start.

818

:

It may feel complex, it may feel very

male dominated, but there's so many ways

819

:

in which you can be able to input in it.

820

:

I still insist that I think

women are better at educating.

821

:

Yeah, there's a way you can be able to

put out information that people can be

822

:

able to understand a majority of the

population, especially when it comes to

823

:

young kids and the children of the future.

824

:

So the more women you can get

talking about Bitcoin, it will

825

:

be easier for kids to transition.

826

:

And so.

827

:

if there's any woman who is considering

getting into Bitcoin, you're welcome.

828

:

We need you here.

829

:

We will welcome you.

830

:

It's a very wonderful place,

a very wonderful community.

831

:

Especially I have Worked in corporate

and I keep on saying I've not

832

:

seen as much support in what I do

than what I've seen in Bitcoin.

833

:

It's fascinating to me.

834

:

And I'm sure even in Bitcoin you can

find a way to work flexibly and get

835

:

time to focus on family and Also get

to earn as compared to earning in fiat.

836

:

So yes you're just welcome to

join this amazing community of

837

:

people and let's fix the world.

838

:

Tali: Awesome Thank you so much.

839

:

That was really enlightening.

840

:

I'm sorry that I don't know

more about how things work in

841

:

Africa I feel so blind When I

842

:

Noelyn: okay.

843

:

Welcome to join us here.

844

:

Tali: I would love to visit Africa

845

:

.

one of these days, Thank you for listening to this episode.

846

:

Did you enjoy it?

847

:

Wasn't our guest absolutely fabulous.

848

:

I just love every woman's

story on this show.

849

:

Everybody has a unique perspective

and yet, we all come to the same

850

:

place, which is Bitcoin is an

important part of our lives.

851

:

If this story has inspired you

and you would like to know

852

:

more, go to www.orangehatter.com.

853

:

Get involved.

854

:

Join and our reading group, send

me an email and introduce yourself.

855

:

I will be so happy to hear from you.

856

:

The best way you can support this

show is to spread the word Tell

857

:

every woman, you know, to listen in.

858

:

You never know how they will

be impacted by these stories.

859

:

I appreciate you so much.

860

:

See you next time.

861

:

Bye.

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