Bitcoin Adoption in Africa: Empowering Women with Noelyn

In this episode, I'm thrilled to bring you Noelyn’s inspiring story and her journey into the world of Bitcoin. Born and raised in Kenya, Noelyn experienced the harsh realities of the 2008 financial crisis, a pivotal moment that steered her towards studying financial engineering in college. Her quest for financial security led her to explore various investment strategies. Noelyn shares her insights from working in the banking and tax industries, revealing how these experiences highlighted the constraints of centralized finance and ultimately drew her towards Bitcoin.

"With self teaching," she said, "once you get the Bitcoin bug, it itches you, you want to start telling the whole world about it."

Currently, she's making a significant impact at Exonumia by translating Bitcoin content into Swahili, thereby increasing accessibility and understanding of Bitcoin in Africa.

This episode also touches on a critical issue: the societal expectations for African women to secure financial independence before marriage as a safeguard against economic vulnerability and marital abuse. Noelyn passionately advocates for greater female participation in the Bitcoin community, emphasizing the role of decentralized finance in empowering women. Tune in for an enlightening discussion about financial independence, empowerment, and the transformative power of Bitcoin.

00:00 Introduction

00:03 The Struggles of Women in Kenya

00:27 The Importance of Educating Women

00:50 Welcome to Orange Hatter Podcast

01:11 Exclusive Retreat for Women in Bitcoin Space

02:35 Interview with Noelyn: Her Journey into Bitcoin

02:47 Noelyn's Background and Early Interest in Finance

03:02 Noelyn's Experience with the 2008 Financial Crisis

04:54 Noelyn's Career Journey and Exploration of Investment Options

04:58 Noelyn's Experience in the Banking and Taxation Sector

12:31 Noelyn's First Encounter with Bitcoin

14:39 Noelyn's Transition from Traditional Finance to Bitcoin

15:23 Noelyn's Advocacy for Bitcoin

15:44 Noelyn's Father's Reaction to Bitcoin

17:25 The Challenge of Unlearning Traditional Finance

22:20 Noelyn's Talk at El Salvador

23:42 The Impact of Financial Struggles on Family Life

25:15 Cultural Shifts: Delaying Marriage and Childbearing

26:59 Empowering Women through Bitcoin Education

27:32 The Ripple Effects of Financial Dependence

30:16 The Journey into Bitcoin

31:06 Translating Bitcoin Content into African Languages

32:52 Overcoming Challenges in Bitcoin Adoption

37:06 The Role of Mobile Money in Bitcoin Adoption

39:49 The Importance of Self Custody in Bitcoin

44:18 The Future of Bitcoin in Africa

46:18 A Call to Women in Bitcoin

48:19 Conclusion: Join the Bitcoin Community

*** Check out the Orange Hatter Women's Retreat at www.orangehatter.com/yucatan ***

To learn more about Bitcoin: Join the Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.  Please email to Tali@orangehatter.com for the private telegram group and zoom link.

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Remember: Knowledge is empowerment! 🍊🎩

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. Noelyn: In Kenya , we live a day

at a time hand to mouth, basically.

2

The husband is the, breadwinner, once he

leaves most women are left without means.

3

So it is in the back of the

minds of a lot of women.

4

We have lots of cases of abuse in Kenya.

5

I We saw a huge rise in divorce.

6

Finances was a major issue

especially if the woman is

7

dependent on the man, 100 percent.

8

it's a huge deal.

9

Let's educate the women because

after all, women are the majority

10

population and around here,

women are quite the educators.

11

If you educate a woman, they

educate their husband, they

12

educate the community around them.

13

That way, we can have women being

able to take care of their families,

14

taking care of themselves, whether

you are married or unmarried.

15

Tali: Hey, everybody.

16

Welcome to Orange Hatter.

17

My mission for the Orange Hatter podcast

is that after tuning in and hearing

18

about everyday women's stories and

their path to Bitcoin, you'd think,

19

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them, maybe it could do the same for me.

20

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We can't wait to welcome you.

51

Tali: Welcome Noelyn to Orange Hatter.

52

I'm so happy to have you here.

53

And I can't wait to dive

into your Bitcoin story.

54

Noelyn: Thank you for having me Tali.

55

I'm also glad to be here with you today.

56

Tali: Awesome.

57

Let's dive into a little

bit of your background.

58

Noelyn: Yes.

59

So my background in terms of

education , so I have a background

60

in finance and accounting.

61

What I studied in school means

actually is the financial engineering.

62

What drove me actually funny thing

to learning this was I experienced

63

something when I was young during the

64

but I happened to be affected by the

crisis, the financial crisis, and I became

65

curious about money from a very young

age of uh, I saw the effects that the

66

crisis had on my family and yeah, I just

wanted to go ahead and learn as much of

67

about money that as I could, and that's

what drew me to learning about that.

68

Yeah.

69

Tali: Would you mind if I asked

you to share some details that

70

you remember from that time?

71

It sounds like it made

a huge impact on you.

72

Noelyn: Yes it did.

73

my dad, My dad used to work

in the banking sector and when

74

the crisis happened in the US.

75

The ripple effect here was

that, of course, you know how

76

banks are usually asked to go

ahead and collect their assets.

77

And unfortunately we lost

a lot as a result of that.

78

And he ended up also

losing a lot financially.

79

So maybe I can say I learned

recently that it was more of from

80

a financial trauma point of view.

81

Good or bad, I'm not sure, but I

think it, it had a huge impact to

82

determining my focus or my trajectory

and especially getting here.

83

So it's something that I'd always

wanted to know and learn how money

84

works because I was curious about it.

85

Tali: You didn't just want

to learn about economics.

86

You actually went into the nitty gritty,

the financial engineering side of it.

87

Noelyn: Oh, yes, I was looking for ways

to avoid risk from a very young age.

88

And it's funny because now after

I had cleared, because I was

89

studying business in high school.

90

And when I got into campus, the

same thing, I just wanted to do

91

something to do with related to money.

92

So financial engineering

was the best option.

93

And after I left now, this is where

it gets even more interesting.

94

Okay.

95

My internship was in a banking

in the banking industry.

96

And I ensured I understood

everything that occurs in the bank.

97

This is actually the first

time I'm mentioning this.

98

Interesting.

99

But yeah I Went ahead and learned

everything that I could in the

100

banking sector and I did not like

the bank because I thought it was

101

very monotonous working there.

102

So even after my internship, I left and,

now with working in terms of getting

103

job opportunities, it's not very easy in

Kenya, so it took me a while to be able

104

to get into the sector, basically working.

105

But when I was doing that, with the

few amount of money that I had made,

106

or rather had saved, I wanted to look

for ways in which I could invest it.

107

And the first time I remember I tried

investing, there was a product that had

108

been released by the money markets in

Kenya, it's a T bill, but instead

109

of having the huge amounts of money,

it was in just small quantities.

110

I remember I saved it there first and

after I had saved it, what I received

111

at the end of the year, it's something

like, if I could have worked hard, I

112

would have received even within days.

113

And I was shocked because I'd expected

with the interest rate that I would

114

receive a huge amount of money.

115

So I took my money out and I went into

shares and also a disappointment because

116

especially if you're young and you try

to get into investment, you realize

117

soon enough that either you need a huge

amount of money to get into it and in

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Africa, Australia, like investing in

companies chances of them failing are

119

quite high and we've had lots of companies

fail here with Australian share prices.

120

They plummet.

121

There's Very few companies make it.

122

That was my unfortunate

or rather fortunate event.

123

So basically all throughout

I was just trying to find out

124

something that I could invest in.

125

You end up realizing sooner or later that

you might work for the rest of your life.

126

And yeah, I guess that was

me in terms of my background.

127

Especially when learning about

money, I had to do it practically.

128

, Tali: when I was going through

school, people always talk about,

129

There are two ways to earn money.

130

There's one way, which is

using your labor, and one way

131

is to use money to earn money.

132

And we learn very quickly in

society that the money part is

133

what makes the difference, not

necessarily your labor, I think.

134

Noelyn: yeah!

135

Tali: So that's why I'm very fascinated

that you went into financial engineering,

136

because When I was in business school,

the people who went into financial

137

engineering were the brainiacs.

138

They were their super, super smart people

who would create derivatives on top

139

of derivatives on top of derivatives.

140

And I will always have to sit and

think so long about how this money

141

is coming, like being creative

because it's so mind boggling.

142

Noelyn: Yeah.

143

And it's so funny.

144

You end up realizing that derivatives

are just people trying to figure

145

out ways to manipulate the

system in order to make profits.

146

And I think that's the unfortunate

thing that not many people get

147

to understand this language.

148

So unless you study it.

149

It's like it opens up your eyes.

150

I think that's why it's easier

for people in finance to just

151

switch on to Bitcoin quite easy.

152

It opens up your eyes to

what exactly am I doing here?

153

What's the end goal?

154

And for financial engineering,

I did the derivatives.

155

I did the derivatives.

156

It never made sense to me.

157

And I think even like the most

important topic I should have focused

158

on and being taught was the crisis

because we had talked about Crisis.

159

From the black Monday

crisis to the dot com crash.

160

But and eventually you realize

that at the central point of all of

161

this were people making decisions.

162

And people using these same derivatives

that are learning about to come up with

163

yeah, just ways in which money should

move or money should be allocated.

164

And eventually there's the end

result, which unfortunately

165

leads to the loss of income.

166

Livelihoods are affected

by this worldwide.

167

Tali: Yeah, you see very quickly.

168

That , you have people who are on the

in, and people who are not on the in.

169

Noelyn: yeah.

170

Exactly.

171

Tali: Do you mind if I

ask you how old you are?

172

Noelyn: Oh, no, I'm in my late 20s.

173

.

Tali: What you're doing being so active in this space is so encouraging

174

because this is a young people's world.

175

Not that it doesn't affect absolutely

everybody, but you guys are going

176

to be the ones that make the

difference for this evolution.

177

So I'm very excited to talk to

you about where you are now.

178

So somehow you found Bitcoin

and let's talk about the

179

first time you heard about it.

180

Noelyn: Okay.

181

Besides the financial trauma side of

it now that we're even talking about

182

being women I, there's that desire

where you want to be a mom, you want

183

to have a family and work life balance.

184

Australia nine to five here.

185

It's not that easy.

186

And I was looking for a way out.

187

I wanted if I want to start building

a family and I wanted a way in which

188

I could be able to earn leisurely.

189

I could be able to make time while

I do that, while I raise kids.

190

And I looked at my options.

191

So that is the other thing,

looking for financial freedom.

192

So after now the internship, I

hustled a bit here and there.

193

I ended up working for the

government in taxation.

194

People are usually surprised.

195

I know.

196

Yeah, so I, while I was working there,

it just opened me up to a whole lot of

197

things that were basically just, odd if

I may put it that way in terms of how

198

the government runs the financial system

in terms of how taxation is applied.

199

And I don't know whether it was

just me who was realizing it.

200

Actually, if you're in it and

you're profiting from such a

201

system, you do not really see the.

202

challenges with it because after

all they're paying my salary.

203

Why would I question why we are imposing

this tax and especially imposition of

204

tax and people don't even have education.

205

So tax education around

here is not quite good.

206

And you have people lining up paying

taxes, and they don't even understand.

207

Penalties are quite high.

208

And I was supposed to be the

educator, but then you realize that

209

even the regulatory authority isn't

focused on educating people on

210

how they're supposed to be taxed.

211

All they want is, you get the

penalty and you get taxed.

212

So this was One of the reasons

when I thought I when people work

213

in such organizations, government

organizations, they never want to leave.

214

They want to stay there till retirement.

215

I did not see myself doing that.

216

I wanted to figure out I like working

in the sector, but I wanted to work in a

217

sector that's impacting people positively.

218

Tax collectors are not the

favorite at all in this country.

219

And I wanted to find something

that can be impactful for people.

220

So besides working towards having to

raise a family and looking for work

221

that can be impactful, I decided I

was going to start educating myself.

222

That's But I had come across Bitcoin

223

was still a student back then.

224

This was just a friend who was

mining Bitcoin back then in campus.

225

And I just happened to come across

them and they told me about it.

226

They mentioned it, but I didn't

pay keen attention to it.

227

And they were like, you know

what, this is the future.

228

Funny thing, even that friend

left Bitcoin, but came back later.

229

So I read about it and I was

like, wow, this Bitcoin, but in

230

campus, you don't really have

that much money to buy Bitcoin.

231

I wish I would have even sacrificed

a bit of lunch and bought them.

232

But anyways, it's a bygone.

233

I had the tap to be, you remember

Zappos, that wasn't a bank

234

then, it was still in Kenya.

235

There are still people mining

Bitcoin in Kenya at that time.

236

But not so many people, very

few people understood it.

237

I used to tap to play and earn a few sats.

238

I remember I called Zappo back recently

when I figured out what it was all about.

239

I'm like, I still want my sats back.

240

And they were like, no, it's gone.

241

But yeah, after learning, clearing my

school, now going through this working

242

journey while I was still in taxation,

I decided to self teach myself because

243

I realized I had missed something.

244

When there was a tourist who had

come to Kenya after they leave

245

at the coast and around here we

have lots of tourists coming in.

246

I interacted with with a couple of

them and I just used to hear them talk

247

about crypto and traveling on crypto.

248

So I met one who was specifically

traveling on I was like,

249

how do you mean you are not?

250

You can't be able to just

sit still and work somewhere.

251

You can't be able to travel like this.

252

So I felt I missed something and they

were kind enough to teach me and of

253

course, to the teaching, they started

teaching me the trading part of it

254

because they were doing all of crypto

but I had the background of Bitcoin

255

and I had the background of, trying to

always avoid risk from my childhood.

256

I knew the risk that comes with bank.

257

I knew the risk that comes with people

being at the center of making financial

258

decisions So it didn't take me a long

time when people say they went through

259

the crypto Phase it didn't take me

long to realize there's something I

260

missed here because with crypto there's

body making the decision at the top,

261

but with Bitcoin, it's decentralized.

262

So it was very easy for me

to just move towards Bitcoin.

263

And with self teaching, once you get the

Bitcoin bug, it itches you, you want to

264

start telling the whole world about it.

265

So that's how I found myself.

266

I just looked for the first social

media platform that I knew I could be

267

able to talk to people about it easily.

268

And I just started talking about, I

bought my first Bitcoin, it wasn't

269

much, that time I was still working.

270

And then I just started teaching about

Bitcoin, I was like, you know what,

271

even if I don't get my social financial

freedom, maybe I could be able to reach

272

other people so that they can see there

is a problem with having centralized

273

decision making when it comes to money.

274

And yeah, that's how I just

started shouting about Bitcoin

275

everywhere to everyone.

276

Yeah.

277

Tali: So my first question is about

your dad who went through that

278

trauma of the financial crisis.

279

When you first came across Bitcoin

and you're starting to talk

280

about it, what was his reaction?

281

Noelyn: Oh, wow.

282

It took him a while.

283

It took him a while.

284

Actually, when I said, I was leaving

my government job, which no one leaves.

285

And so it took him a while to

actually agree or understand.

286

But eventually.

287

It came, he understood it,

also being with a background

288

in banking, he now don't believe

that, yeah this thing is real.

289

Of course, with the age factor, it's

still difficult for him to navigate

290

it, but nowadays we, I send a few sats.

291

He can be able to understand

what it really means.

292

But yeah, I might say it

really did take a while.

293

Surely him imagining that we can have

money that is not controlled by anyone.

294

And in my country, Kenya, there's

a lot of money laundering.

295

We call it it's called wash.

296

So when people see you dealing in money

that is not Planted the government.

297

They think you're more like a scammer

and he was worried about that.

298

Yeah.

299

Yeah, but I don't

300

Tali: Yeah, I bet.

301

It just sounds like he would be so ready

to hear about a better alternative,

302

Noelyn: like they're so

303

Tali: than what, what burned his boat,

304

Noelyn: i'm used to this system, I don't

want to Be told that it's been a lie.

305

Even at my young age, I was

very sad to figure that out.

306

So I can imagine you'd

rather just filter it out.

307

And that's the unfortunate part.

308

We have been with the company

I'm working with onboarding.

309

People who are older, it's it's a

struggle trying to explain it to them.

310

It's what they've known their whole lives.

311

So how can I, a young person, come and

tell them, you know what, times change,

312

people evolve, things evolve, and this

is, it's the time now for new money.

313

Tali: I think you hit the nail on the

head when you said It's hard for them

314

to believe that it's all been a lie

because being a much older person than

315

you I made major life decisions based

on what I was told and what I learned

316

and I Every step of the way I was trying

to make the right decisions so I can

317

imagine People who are even one or two

generations ahead of me turning around

318

looking back and go I can't believe I

was part of the whole scheme You know you

319

Noelyn: How did you be

able to turn around?

320

Maybe you can give me a few tips.

321

What changed your mind?

322

Tali: For me, personally,

I was very resistant.

323

My husband started hearing about it

on the podcast that he was listening

324

to and he was like, hey, Tali.

325

This Bitcoin thing.

326

I think it's something we should look

into and I said, I don't understand it

327

I'm not a computer person and I honestly

don't have time because it was a few

328

years ago My kids were all in school.

329

I homeschooled them.

330

So their school was my school

and I was I had no break.

331

It was like a 24 7 job and

Honestly, I just wanted him

332

to stop bugging me about it.

333

I was just like, can you please

stop talking about this thing?

334

I do not understand what it is.

335

How can it possibly be money?

336

And honestly, I think if I have been

something physical like gold I could wrap

337

my head around that, if people want to

exchange something that's physical, but

338

especially because it's digital and I

don't even know how to set up a wallet.

339

I don't know where the money goes.

340

I struggled when our banking system

went digital and online, like for the

341

longest time, I didn't, I still brought

my checks to the bank to deposit it

342

because I was not doing mobile banking.

343

I was not doing mobile deposits

because what happened to the picture

344

of the check, my mom still refuses.

345

My in laws, they will not do it.

346

They won't do digital banking at all.

347

They still take the check

into the physical bank.

348

But what ultimately convinced

me is the game behind me.

349

I don't know if you can see it.

350

So Scott, he spent two years trying

to convince me and in the process he

351

basically created this game and he

goes, Talia, you have to understand

352

this because it's important.

353

Yeah.

354

So it's a board game.

355

It's a tabletop board game.

356

And it just explains the basics of

blockchain technology and how Bitcoin

357

mining works and what a Bitcoin.

358

And once I got over that mental

hurdle, then I was willing to read

359

a book and listen to a podcast.

360

And then, you go straight down

the rabbit hole once you do that.

361

But for me, that's what it took was seeing

something digital represented in physical

362

form, because I'm stuck in that mindset.

363

Noelyn: Maybe you should

try and do that over here.

364

Because the challenge is

the unlearning process.

365

Once you are calm enough to unlearn,

then it opens up eventually for sure.

366

Yeah,

367

Tali: Yeah, I think for all of us older

people we just have the mental hurdle

368

To hop over because the world has

changed so much since the time we were

369

young, when I was going to university,

nobody had a computer in their room.

370

Nobody had a phone.

371

You had to walk from the

dorm to the computer center.

372

And the screen was just The

black screen with the white,

373

letters that would go across.

374

There's only one font.

375

And the entire computer

center had one printer.

376

So you have to send your

print job to the printer.

377

And then you gotta walk over and stand

in line to pick up your print job.

378

If you go back even

further, when I was younger.

379

We were playing in the dirt, we were

using little marbles that you kind of

380

flick into little holes that you dig out

with your nails, really basic stuff, my

381

kids can't relate because they grew up

in the age of iPads, they were already

382

out, the phones were already out.

383

And so for them, it's not a huge

mental shift for us and older people.

384

It is such a mind boggling chasm

that you have to cross mentally.

385

Noelyn: is not technology, this is money.

386

What do you mean the money is changing?

387

That's huge.

388

Yeah.

389

Tali: This theft that's been going on of

their life, because if you think of your

390

job as you, or when you're earning money,

you're exchanging your lifetime for money.

391

If you're being paid.

392

Per the value that you provide, right?

393

So to realize suddenly that you have

worked your whole life and people

394

have been stealing from you the

whole time and you didn't realize it,

395

that's a really hard truth to take.

396

Noelyn: Yeah.

397

Actually, my talk at El

Salvador was talking about that.

398

If you get to listen to it on

YouTube, that's that's exactly

399

what I was talking about.

400

I grew up in an era where I was

told education is the key to the

401

future, but you didn't mention that

the kind of education I'm receiving

402

is not really as beneficial to me.

403

It's supposed to just make me work

for the government and not, and

404

like really working for myself or

really stop working at some point.

405

It's unfortunate.

406

You find someone's a doctor, they earn

good money, but Still, you have to

407

figure out how you can fight inflation.

408

So you have to become a doctor.

409

You have to know taxes.

410

You have to know investment.

411

All in one as a single person.

412

And if you never had the

knowledge, you end up losing a lot.

413

And yeah, I guess that's where we're at.

414

Tali: I gave a talk at a homeschooling

conference a few months ago, and , in

415

the talk I said to the parents who are

sitting there, they're all homeschooling

416

parents, and I said, when you talk to

your kids about growing up and getting

417

a job or choosing a career, how many

jobs do you tell them they would be

418

working, once they choose a career path?

419

And they all said one.

420

And I said that's just not true.

421

Because everybody has to have two,

there's one job to earn your money.

422

And there's a one job to

try to keep your money.

423

What kind of time does that leave

you to focus on your family?

424

You mentioned that family is very

important to you and you're doing

425

this so that one day you can have the

family life that you envisioned, right?

426

But if you're working two jobs

just to survive, then the kids

427

take a backseat because they must.

428

And a lot of people are in that boat.

429

Noelyn: I was listening to I think

Natalie Brunel also was talking to

430

the crypto couple the other day,

and she mentioned the same thing.

431

She was told as a lady, work, become the

girl boss, because she was doing that

432

so that she can get to a point where

she's It feels financially confident

433

to be able to have kids in this case.

434

Unfortunately we need two incomes

in a household and that's just it.

435

So even the ripple effects, we're going a

little bit deeper, but I feel the ripple

436

effect of fiat is women are delaying,

but men are getting frustrated out of it.

437

I don't know about your generation.

438

You guys are good.

439

Us, people don't even want to get

married anymore because they're

440

thinking, what's the point?

441

And this is not just something

that's happening in the West.

442

Kenya is quite influenced

even by the Western culture.

443

So even here you get Girls just want to

work and work, and with that, you delay

444

marriage, you delay a lot of things.

445

Men are also frustrated, they're

also trying to , gain a living.

446

The societal effect of the family is

also, it can be felt, or rather it

447

will be seen in the days coming, yeah.

448

Tali: I was going to ask you about

that because, my understanding

449

of the African culture is that for

women, children is their wealth.

450

Is that still up until recently?

451

Is that still something

that's very cultural?

452

Noelyn: Yeah, okay

wealth for female, girls?

453

In most cultures, actually, when a

man gives birth to kids the wealth is

454

mostly transferred to the male child.

455

They still assume that the female

is supposed to get married, and

456

be supported by the husband.

457

But of course now with things

changing even we find that not

458

many ladies are getting married.

459

So Progressed families, you'll be

able to get yourself in a situation

460

where you can be able to get married,

although you can get people to

461

get inheritance from your father.

462

But the other side of the coin is

When you can't be able to have that,

463

you are forced into probably getting

married so that you can be able to

464

support if you want to, that is.

465

But with that, you can get things

like abuse, which is quite common.

466

depend on your husband.

467

Unfortunately, it's really financial

financially depending on your husband.

468

We have lots of cases of abuse in Kenya.

469

I think of late, especially since

COVID period the rate of divorces.

470

I'll just speak for Kenya because it's

not generally in all African countries.

471

I can say we saw a huge rise

in cases of divorce because

472

finances was a major issue.

473

And with it, you get to the root of it.

474

Especially if the woman is dependent

on the man, 100 percent for

475

finances, it's it's a huge deal.

476

So that's why you've talked

about Bitcoin Dada and Marcel.

477

I guess for her she saw that and

she was like, let's educate the

478

women because after all, women are

the majority population and around

479

here, women are quite the educators.

480

If you educate a woman, they

educate their husband, they

481

educate the community around them.

482

That way, we can have women being

able to take care of their families,

483

taking care of themselves, whether

you are married or unmarried.

484

Yeah, and you don't have to undergo

abuse, especially if you can't

485

be able to afford to take care

of yourself and your children.

486

Tali: Is that something that is on

the back of your mind, not your mind,

487

but is that something that's on the

back of the minds of the women today,

488

even as they consider marriage,

that if they ever become 100 percent

489

dependent on the husband financially,

that they can be subject to abuse?

490

Is it that common?

491

Noelyn: Yes, it is.

492

It is.

493

In fact I can say that growing

up with my aunties they, Will

494

tell me go times have changed.

495

Don't go ahead and get married to a

man until you have something going on

496

for yourself and even they encourage

you even as a married woman, have

497

something going on for yourself.

498

Besides that is anything

will happen to your husband.

499

And as I've mentioned, investment in

Kenya is not knowledge that's Available

500

to everyone, not, we live a day at

a time hand to mouth, basically.

501

So not so many people are

investing for their futures.

502

And if you find, if the husband

is the head of the household or

503

the breadwinner, once he leaves

most women are left without means.

504

So it is in the back of the

minds of a lot of women.

505

Majority of the women right now, it's

been conversations that have been going

506

on for a decade, if I can say a decade

plus, where they're encouraging women to

507

have something going on for themselves.

508

Tali: So there is, it sounds

like there's a new standard.

509

That sounds, I don't know if that's

the right word, new standard, but

510

instead of getting married young and

starting a family right away, the new

511

generation of women, they are trying

to be more independent and delaying

512

marriage and delaying childbearing.

513

Noelyn: Yes.

514

I would say this is especially

mostly for the really educated,

515

like highly educated women.

516

That's majority, not all of

them, but majority of them.

517

We have also the extreme cases.

518

So in the rural areas, girls

are getting married young, but

519

it's also for the same reason.

520

You figure out as a girl, I need

somebody to take care of me financially.

521

So that's the other side of the coin.

522

Just to avoid having to be

a burden to your family, you

523

decide, okay I'll get married.

524

And of course that has it's benefits, but

also now the abuse you were talking about.

525

Tali: It's so fascinating that

this is the new movement.

526

It's also really encouraging

because women have a way of figuring

527

things out and then passing on.

528

So if you become educated yourself,

not just in traditional education,

529

but in financial education,

You are the best person to pass

530

it on to the next generation.

531

Noelyn: I'd love to.

532

Tali: Yeah.

533

Okay.

534

So tell me about your work.

535

You sound like you're so busy.

536

You're traveling all over the place.

537

What are you doing?

538

Noelyn: Oh getting into Bitcoin.

539

Fascinating.

540

So after screaming around on

Twitter I was approached or rather

541

I started looking for Bitcoin jobs.

542

That's the first thing you do because

you realize you can't be able to work

543

in fiat and And I'll be able to keep on

buying fiat or selling fiat for Bitcoin.

544

So I was like, I need to find

ways to just get Bitcoin.

545

And but before that I was too focused

on getting the message out because I

546

was like, you know what, if everybody

comes into Bitcoin and we find people

547

coming into Bitcoin, then I wouldn't

have to my work will be easier.

548

So I ended up working in

a company called Exonumia.

549

Exonumia carries out translation of

Bitcoin literature into African languages.

550

For example, I speak Swahili in Kenya.

551

Swahili is spoken by

around 200 million people.

552

So you find Kenya, Tanzania, Rwanda.

553

Uganda uh, a bit of Burundi, also Malawi

even Sudan, a bit of South Sudan, you

554

can find people who understand Swahili,

Somalia, so it's a widely spoken

555

language and I was requested to maybe

start translating Bitcoin content into

556

Swahili and it was exciting for me.

557

I managed to translate the

Block Size Wars by Jonathan and

558

Layered Money by Nick Bhatia.

559

Exonima has actually done

translation in Uganda.

560

It has done translation in South Africa.

561

It has done translation in

West Africa, Ghana, Nigeria.

562

It was a good team to, to work with.

563

The translation is still ongoing, because

the major barrier, actually, in Africa

564

is We speak different languages and

not so many people understand English.

565

So if you want to get Bitcoin to them

educating them through a language

566

they understand will be the first

thing that you can be able to do.

567

And so after doing the

translations I happened to meet

568

built with Bitcoin foundation.

569

They have built a school in Kenya.

570

The, some place called Ukambani, so

we went there, we with a team of also

571

Bitcoiners in Kenya there's Master Gwantai

was organizing it, and he approached me

572

and he was like, we're going here, we're

going to teach people in the rural area

573

of Ukambani about Bitcoin, if you have

time, you can join us, so I joined him.

574

On that trip and while we were

there, it was teaching Bitcoin

575

already is difficult enough.

576

Teaching Bitcoin in Swahili,

teaching Bitcoin in uh, one of

577

us had to go all the way teaching

Bitcoin in now the native language.

578

Kenya has 22 ethnic tribes.

579

So he was teaching in one of

the ethnic tribes that's Kamba.

580

So when we were done teaching

we realized the whole group of

581

people, in fact, they asked us now

you've told us about this Bitcoin.

582

So how can we get Bitcoin?

583

Because they understand hard money.

584

One of the ways in which people

invest in Kenya is through land.

585

So that's the go to when it comes

to long term investment when people

586

make a huge amount of money they

go directly into real estate.

587

So they understood the concept of

inflation, we didn't have to go in depth

588

explaining to them because everybody can

say that Kanyashiling is devaluing fast.

589

And they asked us now, can

you send us this Bitcoin?

590

And it was unfortunate.

591

We couldn't be able to send them.

592

Where we were, the internet

connection was terrible already.

593

And even if you wanted to, there

was only one person in the room

594

who had a smartphone because this

was a group of it was a school.

595

And now we were teaching the parents.

596

And the teacher now was the

only one with a smartphone.

597

So we even thought maybe even

if you wanted to send it to the

598

teacher, Bitcoin is something

that you should own by yourself.

599

It was, it will not

make sense practically.

600

And it was on that day, for some reason,

there was a tweet being sent out by

601

another an African that If somebody

could figure out, that was Ogin from

602

Namibia, if somebody could figure out

how to put Bitcoin into feature phones,

603

it would be really amazing for Africa.

604

And I saw that tweet I retweeted

it, and I was like, yes, please,

605

somebody figure, figure out also now

Kogatso from South Africa, that's

606

the founder of Machankura, also.

607

So that we can be replied that he

should be given two weeks to do it.

608

And within two weeks, he

delivered much on Kura.

609

And it was amazing.

610

Right now we can be able to

send sats to anyone, even my

611

grandmother in the village.

612

And even though people have smartphones.

613

Internet connection is still quite

expensive for most people to afford.

614

So it was a game changer.

615

I remember actually saying this is

going to be a game changer for us in

616

terms of adoption of Bitcoin in Africa.

617

Because not so many people really

have to understand inflation.

618

They don't have to go through everything.

619

I've gone through understanding risk.

620

If they can just see Bitcoin in which

they can send and receive and purchase

621

goods with it, then We can be able

to get massive adoption in Africa.

622

So I did that, but also after I

translated Nick Bhatia's book, I

623

thought that it was necessary for us

to have African stories being told.

624

So I decided to get into podcasting

with the Bitcoin layer and

625

where I was like, maybe there's

something going on in Africa.

626

I.

627

I would love to report on it especially

in terms of Bitcoin adoption, because

628

I don't know whether you've tried

researching on Bitcoin in Africa, there's

629

very few stories, but right now, at least

there's a lot, but when I was Trying

630

to, I think what I got was just one

documentary and it was very outdated.

631

Yeah.

632

When I was trying to learn,

633

Tali: Scott and I have talked to

Master Guan Tai actually about the

634

game, because we were trying to

figure out how to get it into Africa.

635

And we were trying

636

Noelyn: get it, I'll buy it for sure.

637

Tali: we were trying to figure that out.

638

Cause he was like, why

don't you send us one?

639

I'm like, sure.

640

We'll send you one.

641

And I think the shipping cost was

something like 450 for a game.

642

I'm like, what?

643

450?

644

Nobody can, how are we going to do that?

645

So we still have to figure that out.

646

I'm very curious when you're talking

about the guy who stepped forward

647

and was able to now bring Bitcoin

to people in the rural areas what's

648

the system that's in place right

now that's allowing that to happen?

649

Noelyn: Okay.

650

So in Kenya we use mobile money.

651

I don't know.

652

Have you heard of M Pesa?

653

Yeah, so we use M Pesa to

send and receive money.

654

Credit, we, I keep on saying we

skipped the phase of credit cards

655

I think it's a good thing that we

didn't have to go through that.

656

Not so many people have credit cards.

657

And one of the ATM cards here, that's

what, although, most of the merchants

658

in fact, if I can say a huge number of

merchants accept payments using M Pesa,

659

it's a mobile money payment system.

660

And what made it really gain adoption in

Kenya was the fact that it uses the U.

661

S.

662

D.

663

platform.

664

So with U.

665

S.

666

D.

667

You do not need the Internet to

able to send and receive because

668

it uses the telecommunication, the

mobile network, the television.

669

So that's the unstructured

supplementary service data.

670

So this is what is used to send SMS.

671

Thank you very much.

672

Yeah, so with that now, when the

lightning network was came about,

673

it was easy to implement the

lightning network on this service.

674

So that's what he used to come up with a

service and integrating the both of them.

675

I have no idea how he

did it, but it works.

676

It works seamlessly.

677

It works smoothly.

678

Onboarding process is

faster than using an app.

679

All you have to do is just

send someone a USS day code.

680

Once they dial it, they have and register.

681

They have themselves a wallet.

682

It is still custodial, though currently

in the works we have rather, he has

683

managed to come up with a self custody

way also for the feature phones.

684

So that should be, if you

can join us in South Africa.

685

In January we'll be able to

demonstrate the self custody

686

of the same feature phones.

687

And I think now that's going to be

even a major game changer for us.

688

Because we don't want as a

company to hold anyone's Bitcoin.

689

The point is getting people

to be self sovereign.

690

And even with the regulations in Africa.

691

What I can say, it's a gray area

unfortunately we had an instance in

692

Tanzania and Uganda where we had to,

we had challenges with the regulatory

693

regulations there celebration in

other countries, the USSD we managed

694

to integrate the WhatsApp API.

695

So people in Tanzania and Uganda

can still be able to transact.

696

But at the end of the day, the main

is to get them into self custody.

697

So once we can be able to release the

product, then it will be faster and

698

actually much better for us to just

have people hold their own Bitcoin.

699

Tali: When you're talking about

self custody, are people resistant

700

at all about the responsibility?

701

Especially in light of stories that

come out where people's Bitcoin got

702

swiped while we were in El Salvador,

there was a guy who lost 25 Bitcoin.

703

Noelyn: I saw that.

704

I felt quite sorry for the guy.

705

I remember I was heading to the

airport and I saw that story.

706

That was quite unfortunate.

707

So two instances.

708

Binance is still a major player in Kenya.

709

majority of Africa Binance,

still a huge player.

710

So we have the youth who are tech savvy.

711

They do not care to get into the in

depth of it well, I'm trying to reach.

712

So they, you find that there's still

having the coins on exchanges, but I

713

realized I could have also been among

those people who are comfortable having

714

my coins in an exchange because of

course you realize and you just decide,

715

okay, I'm going to just buy Bitcoin,

but I could have easily also ended up

716

just having my coins in an exchange.

717

So what I can say is They have

not really either been reached by

718

the education for self custody.

719

Because unless you go ahead and take the

step towards learning this, or somebody

720

approaches you with with this information,

you don't really go searching for it.

721

All you are, you're contented you have

Bitcoin, you don't really care why it

722

is, whether it's on, or rather you don't

understand the difference between it

723

being in self custody or in an exchange.

724

But that's the major challenge that

I guess I have and also other African

725

educators have with this group of people.

726

But I don't think anybody will be against

it once they, because we've seen FTX.

727

They've been affected with it.

728

So what usually happens exchanges

go down, people lose money and they

729

come and say Bitcoin is a scam.

730

And that thing was just, it was

unfortunate they didn't even get the

731

relevant education to understand this.

732

I guess that's a challenge For us

here as educators to be able to get

733

this information across and I'm sure

there wouldn't be any resistance

734

when I figured out self custody.

735

I was like, good, because after

all, we keep, I've told you land is

736

the major way of investment here.

737

People do keep their title deeds.

738

They don't have a problem with that.

739

I don't think keeping 12 seed

phrases will be a problem.

740

Yeah.

741

Tali: That's just something

that I personally struggle with

742

just because I'm not tech savvy.

743

And I was talking to another woman last

week, we were talking about how there

744

are a lot of things in life where we feel

like we have a solid understanding on.

745

And then when it comes to Bitcoin, I

always need to rely on a translator.

746

It's like a whole foreign

language by itself.

747

If something develops or if

somebody raises a question, I always

748

have to look to somebody else to

translate the impact of that to me.

749

And that makes me feel somewhat helpless

in a way, just because I don't speak

750

the language, even though we've been

studying and we understand the impact.

751

And You know what I'm saying?

752

It just it's this sort of

unsettling feeling of I know, I

753

don't know, and I always have to

rely on translators a little bit.

754

Noelyn: I understand you fully.

755

Even for me, even though I can

say I work for a Bitcoin company,

756

it's mostly the developer who

understands most of the things.

757

I It usually just comes to my attention.

758

Maybe there's a problem when people

are talking about VIP 300 VIP.

759

What?

760

Lightning going things.

761

So that's when maybe I'll put that put in

the effort to just understand the basics.

762

But I don't feel we really have to

understand all of this as long as We

763

understand the main thing, which is

self custody, and it's in a safe manner.

764

Um, All of these things, they

can just go on as usual, yeah.

765

Yeah, that's very

766

Tali: Yeah, and I think sometimes

knowing too much actually hurts you.

767

So just knowing the basics and Almost

I don't know if you guys use PayPal

768

or Venmo or something over there.

769

But the payment systems, the

people that dab, we don't really

770

know what goes on in the back.

771

And if they release a new

version, nobody pays attention.

772

You just agree, and then you

just have the software update.

773

We almost have to get to that

point of trust in this system.

774

Once you have your seed phrases

written down and just let the

775

technical people take care of that.

776

And just make the experience so

user friendly that it doesn't

777

even have to cross our mind.

778

Noelyn: a huge factor.

779

At least you've heard of

Bitcoin Ekasi in South Africa.

780

That's it.

781

So there's a educational brother,

a circular economy in South

782

Africa called Bitcoin Ikasi.

783

They've done a fantastic job in terms of

education, teaching the community there.

784

And people there are open,

they're open to using Lightning,

785

they're open to self custody.

786

And right now, even now that

there's Options like phoenix,

787

solitary and self custody there.

788

They're open to using it.

789

So Same case in Ghana.

790

We have a bitcoin doer And so what the

educators I know are doing we are focusing

791

on wholesome education give people all

the options and Tell them allow them

792

to decide which one they prefer to use.

793

I like Lightning because it's cheaper for

me to move money in Lightning, yeah, as

794

compared to having to go to self custody.

795

But if there's Bitcoin I never

want to touch for the next a

796

few years, it's in safe custody.

797

Yeah.

798

Tali: And I think there's just

bugs that need to be worked out

799

as the system continues to evolve.

800

For example, Scott and I, we were in

El Salvador and it was our first time.

801

At a circular economy where we

were able to use our Bitcoin.

802

We were so excited, but two

of our wallets didn't work.

803

We were trying to make Bitcoin

payments and they didn't work.

804

I'm like, Oh my God, no, I'm

stuck because we didn't carry cash.

805

We're like, Oh, cash is so old school.

806

We're using Bitcoin here, but there

are bugs that need to be worked

807

out because we ended up having to

get friends to help us who had.

808

Two different wallets.

809

So there were four wallets that we

were experimenting with there and

810

Yeah, so it's just you almost have to

see it as a game Like you're playing

811

and you're having fun in the process

while you're learning So, okay.

812

So before we wrap up, what would

you say to women who are sitting

813

on the fence about Bitcoin?

814

Noelyn: For women who are sitting

on the fence about it, I know a lot.

815

If you're a woman and you have

been looking to add value in the

816

world, and you're yet undecided

on where you want to work, I feel

817

Bitcoin is a good place to start.

818

It may feel complex, it may feel very

male dominated, but there's so many ways

819

in which you can be able to input in it.

820

I still insist that I think

women are better at educating.

821

Yeah, there's a way you can be able to

put out information that people can be

822

able to understand a majority of the

population, especially when it comes to

823

young kids and the children of the future.

824

So the more women you can get

talking about Bitcoin, it will

825

be easier for kids to transition.

826

And so.

827

if there's any woman who is considering

getting into Bitcoin, you're welcome.

828

We need you here.

829

We will welcome you.

830

It's a very wonderful place,

a very wonderful community.

831

Especially I have Worked in corporate

and I keep on saying I've not

832

seen as much support in what I do

than what I've seen in Bitcoin.

833

It's fascinating to me.

834

And I'm sure even in Bitcoin you can

find a way to work flexibly and get

835

time to focus on family and Also get

to earn as compared to earning in fiat.

836

So yes you're just welcome to

join this amazing community of

837

people and let's fix the world.

838

Tali: Awesome Thank you so much.

839

That was really enlightening.

840

I'm sorry that I don't know

more about how things work in

841

Africa I feel so blind When I

842

Noelyn: okay.

843

Welcome to join us here.

844

Tali: I would love to visit Africa

845

.

one of these days, Thank you for listening to this episode.

846

Did you enjoy it?

847

Wasn't our guest absolutely fabulous.

848

I just love every woman's

story on this show.

849

Everybody has a unique perspective

and yet, we all come to the same

850

place, which is Bitcoin is an

important part of our lives.

851

If this story has inspired you

and you would like to know

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more, go to www.orangehatter.com.

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Get involved.

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Join and our reading group, send

me an email and introduce yourself.

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I will be so happy to hear from you.

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The best way you can support this

show is to spread the word Tell

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every woman, you know, to listen in.

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You never know how they will

be impacted by these stories.

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I appreciate you so much.

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See you next time.

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Bye.