Mushroom Mastery: Health Benefits and Science with Lee Carroll

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In today's episode of the Elemental Evan Podcast, host Evan Roberts interviews Lee Carroll, the Chief Medical Herbalist at Real Mushrooms. Lee has a wealth of knowledge when it comes to medicinal mushrooms and their benefits. In this episode, Evan and Lee discuss the benefits of medicinal mushrooms such as Lion's Mane, Chaga, Reishi, and Cordyceps, and dive deep into their functional uses and health implications.

When it comes to functional mushrooms, there's some misinformation which can make picking a mushroom brand difficult. In this episode you can expect to hear Lee and Evan clarify the differences between fruiting bodies and mycelium and tackle misconceptions about mushroom supplements, particularly those containing mycelium grown on grain. Lee Carroll also emphasizes the importance of incorporating mushrooms into daily life for overall health and longevity, providing practical advice and insights from his extensive experience. I encourage you to take notes and take advantage of a special discount code provided by Lee at the end of the episode.

00:41 Guest Introduction: Lee Carroll

01:05 Deep Dive into Medicinal Mushrooms

03:51 Reishi and Cardiovascular Health

11:01 Ergothioneine: The Unknown Nutrient

21:14 Mushrooms in Human Evolution

32:27 Mycelium vs. Fruiting Body Debate

39:22 The Mycelium Misconception

40:19 Analyzing Mycelium on Grain

42:33 Marketing and Misleading Claims

45:37 The Importance of Fruiting Bodies

46:29 Evidence-Based Medicine and Tradition

51:18 Mushroom Sourcing and Quality

01:00:55 Gut Health and Mushrooms

01:06:15 Choosing the Best Mushroom

01:09:18 Final Thoughts and Recommendations

DISCLAIMER:

This podcast is for educational purposes only, it is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. Evan Roberts is not a medical professional and this podcast is provided on the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. Statements and views expressed on this show are not medical advice, this podcast, including Evan Roberts and any guests on the show, disclaims responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained in this episode. If you think you have a medical problem please consult a medical professional.

Hey, what's going on, everyone.

2

Welcome to the elemental

admin podcast as always.

3

This is your host, Evan Roberts.

4

And on this podcast, I break down.

5

Hell topics from a simplified

and holistic perspective.

6

That way you can walk away from these

episodes and actually apply the knowledge

7

within these episodes into your life.

8

And hopefully give you a new

perspective on health altogether.

9

Today's episode is going to be a guest.

10

Uh, interview.

11

So these episodes are some of my favorite

because I get to learn just as much as all

12

of you on these episodes and really get to

connect with some really amazing people.

13

Today's guest is going to be

one of those amazing people.

14

His name is Lee Carroll and he is

the chief medical herbalist within

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the science team at real mushroom.

16

So yes, this is going to

be an episode all about.

17

Functional or slash medicinal mushrooms.

18

Um, you can pretty much use

that interchangeably when

19

it comes to those mushrooms.

20

And we're going to be covering

things like you guess.

21

Lion's mane, chaga, Rishi cordyceps,

all of the really popular, uh,

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functional or medicinal mushrooms.

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And we're going to dive

pretty deep into them.

24

Uh, Lee has a ton of knowledge on.

25

All of these mushrooms.

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So it was really fun to just kind of

pick his brain on some of the questions

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that I've had for a really long time.

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Which one of those was, is it better to

have the fruiting body or the mycelium

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in your, uh, mushroom product, which has

been a, kind of like an ongoing debate or

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at least an ongoing debate within myself?

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Like literally trying to

figure out which one is better.

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Um, and we talk about how lion's mane

has really been, uh, you know, kind

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of studied for their, my psyllium

benefits and if that's really true,

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or if the fruiting body as well has

benefit or, uh, just as much benefit.

35

So.

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Anyways, there's a whole debate on that

and we're going to get into it today.

37

Uh, super excited for this

episode for all of you to hear it.

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Uh, it was a true pleasure

for me to sit down with Lee

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and to have this conversation.

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And I just know y'all are going to have so

many good takeaways from today's episode.

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So be ready to.

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Uh, take some notes or

take some mental notes.

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And, uh, honestly, I hope

you all just enjoy it.

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Uh, Lee does give a 20% discount code,

I believe at the end of this episode.

45

So make sure you stay tuned.

46

Uh, for that code.

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And of course you can go to the,

uh, show notes or the description

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on this episode, and you will find

the link to real mushrooms and you

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can go ahead and use his code there.

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And as well, there's going to be all of

our other, uh, great sponsors of the show.

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So feel free to check them out as

well, but that is going to do it feel

52

free to connect with Lee as well.

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He is a really.

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Genuinely cool person and has a ton

of knowledge on all things mushrooms.

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So if you have questions.

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Uh, that go beyond what we cover in

today's episode for one, feel free to

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reach out to him personally, or reach out

to me and let me know these questions.

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And I'm happy to bring

him back onto the show.

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I'm already planning on bringing him back

on, but, um, if you have some questions

60

for him, I'd be happy to ask them.

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So feel free to reach

out to me on Instagram.

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That's usually the best

way to connect with me.

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And, uh, I'll try to include, uh, some way

in which you can connect with Lee as well.

64

Uh, in the show notes or the

description of today's episode.

65

Anyways, that is going to do it for today.

66

I hope you all enjoy.

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Let's go ahead and jump into today's

episode and get right into it.

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Um, we start off with a really interesting

and catchy topic, so I hope you all enjoy.

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Uh, thank you so much for

being here and listening today.

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And without further ado

here is Lee Carroll.

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but what is, what is Rishi do

specifically for the erectile dysfunction

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or, , anything related to ed, I guess.

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Um, well, ED in a young man or

younger man, uh, is a sign of

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future cardiovascular disease.

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So, um, you know, to get an erection,

you've got to have proper, um,

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you know, venous tone, you've got

to produce the right amount of

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nitric oxide to get the relaxation.

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So your penis can fill

with blood, et cetera.

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So those same mechanisms are

involved in all of the vasculature.

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So if you have, if you have.

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trouble getting in and

holding an erection.

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Uh, it and you're younger, it puts you

at significantly increased risk for

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cardiovascular disease later in life.

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And Reishi plays a role in prevention

of cardiovascular disease, not as a

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treatment, which is where all of the

research is, but as a lifestyle choice.

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So if you consume Reishi on a, on a

daily basis over the course of your life,

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the, but particularly the triterpenes,

Uh, but in this case, a lesser extent,

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the beta glucans, they have a, they

support the lining of the blood vessels,

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um, in a way that keeps the linings

of the blood vessels healthier, um,

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to resist the stresses and strains.

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So, It might be a little bit technical,

but the, the plumbing of your, of

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your arterial system, um, creates

weaknesses in the flow of the blood.

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So one of the curiosities of, uh, about

the lining of the vascular system,

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particularly the vein, uh, particularly

the arteries, is that the, the linings

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require the constant movement of the

blood, the agitation, the technical

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term, sheer stress when a liquid.

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Bumps up against a

surface and it moves it.

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That's called shear stress.

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So this is why cardiovascular exercise

is so important so that you've got You've

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got the movement of the blood against

the lining of your arteries And if an

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artery goes around a bend you get more

of that shear stress on the outside You

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get less shear stress on the inside.

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So the inside is where you get

atherosclerotic plaques So our, the

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plumbing of our arterial system's

got this inbuilt weakness in it,

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and we need to engage in lifestyle

things in terms of reishi every day,

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green tea every day, cacao every day.

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Um, you know, these are supplements which

deliver, um, compounds which can keep

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and maintain the health of those tissues.

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Resveratrol plays a role there as well.

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Um, highly bioavailable curcumin, and

you need regular exercise to do that.

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So, um, Reishi's key role is getting the,

the, the triterpenes get taken up by the

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endothelial cells, and then when the, when

the triterpenes are in the endothelial

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cells, they allow that cell to, um,

be more functional under the stress.

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And to a certain extent, repair

the dysfunction that gets created

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by the, by the regular stress.

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The whole atherosclerosis thing, you

know, that's, that's a long discussion

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and it has other factors involved like

dental health plays a role if you don't

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floss your teeth, then bacteria get into

your bloodstream through you through

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that connection between your gum and

your teeth and atherosclerotic plaques

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are breeding grounds, particularly for

bacteria, but particularly oral bacteria.

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So, um, mushrooms in general

play a role in that process.

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At a secondary level because

they help they help maintain

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that immunological environment.

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So you have less of a biological, you

know, burden, you know, of those bacteria,

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but it's fascinating how you can go down

these rabbit holes, you know, when, you

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know, talking about human health and how

each individual supplement, you know,

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kind of fits in, it's fascinating and that

continual aspect of knowledge and learning

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and me joining the dots together, creating

a bigger picture is really fascinating.

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Uh, it keeps me, keeps me going and at

65, I'm still fascinated by all this

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stuff and there's still plenty to learn.

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Yeah, it's as you were like going

through that whole process, that

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was literally what I kept coming

to was how connected the body is in

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like one thing affecting another.

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Um, primarily, it definitely kind of

brings up ideas of my dad who, uh,

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he's dealt with some heart issues,

uh, part, part of his heart works

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harder than the other portion.

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So, um, essentially it's like

an imbalanced heart and, uh,

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I've worked with him quite a lot

and just cleaning up his diet.

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Um, one of the things that you

mentioned as well was cacao and that's

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a, that's a big one that I've, I've

added into his kind of daily routine.

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So like cacao nibs and raw cacao.

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Um, and it's really cool because he

has seen like massive improvements

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in his heart, uh, his heart

quality, um, in his checkups.

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So it's really cool.

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It's cool to see like that

all kind of tying together.

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Um, but also like, you know, we started

with like ed and then moved into

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there and it, but it is, it's all,

it's all combined and, and connected.

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And, uh, even have you heard of like

mouth taping at night when you sleep?

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And so that, you know, so then you

breathe through your nose and supposedly

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you produce more nitric oxide by

breathing through your nose at night.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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It's just a, it's a much

healthier way to breathe.

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You know, it's a very popular thing.

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Then you got the Reishi with, you

know, it being the longevity mushroom.

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Uh, it's, uh, seems like

it's just a good combo.

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So that's actually, I've had my

dad take Reishi, but I think I'm

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going to really highlight that.

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It'd be a great one for him to, to have.

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But, um, yeah, and then like physical

activity, I think that's the one thing

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that's kind of saved him is he's always

had a physical job, like a laborious job.

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And, and I think that's

really, uh, played a big role.

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But.

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Um, yeah, Rishi, is Rishi

your favorite mushroom?

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Actually, I didn't ask you this

last time you asked me, but what,

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uh, what's your favorite mushroom?

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Um, yeah, well, it depends on what

day of the week and what week of

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the month and a whole lot of things.

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So, um, I think Rishi is the

mushroom that I consume the most.

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So that probably puts it into my favorite.

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Um,

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There's not that many mushrooms,

uh, that we have access to that

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are like in that supplement realm.

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And my advice to people is to

consume as many mushrooms in

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a supplement form as possible.

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And it's easy to do, you know, there's

lots of, you know, products on the market.

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I'm working with real mushrooms.

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They've got a great thing called

five defenders, for example, which.

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Um, you know, has, um, you know,

reishi and turkey tail and shiitake

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and maitake, um, and lion's mane.

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Um, so it's, it's a very kind of well

balanced and then you get all of the

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aspects of all of the mushrooms because

mushrooms do lots and lots of things.

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Um, if you were to ask me a different

question, like what's your favorite

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thing about mushrooms, you know, that,

that makes them work, then I'd say

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ergothionine, a lot of the focus is on.

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Beta glucans, but I think the

most fascinating, um, more recent

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discovery around mushrooms is

this thing called ergothionein.

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I, I like to joke that it's

the most important nutrient

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that people don't know about.

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So everybody thinks they're the kings of

antioxidant support and how to deal with

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oxidative stress in the body, but Hardly

any of the commentators, uh, you know,

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discussing ergotheanine as part of the

conversation and, and in terms of the

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human body, um, it's right up there as one

of the most important things that we need.

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And the, the major place that we get

it from in our diet, because it is

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a nutrient is, is from mushrooms.

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So just consuming any mushrooms, uh,

you know, is important for human health.

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Yeah, and I know we had, we touched

on ergothionine and, and kind of the

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benefits of it, but run me through

again, what the, the massive benefits, I

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know you mentioned like an antioxidant,

but, um, yeah, what are, what are

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the major benefits of it as well?

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You said last time that lion's mane has a

lot, but is that the one that's the most

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potent in ergothionine that we know of?

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Now the one that's, uh, best,

uh, to use in a commercial

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setting, um, is the yellow oyster.

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So a mushroom like, um, the bolete, so

porcini, Boletus edulis, which is the

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kind of culinary mushroom in Italy,

that's got, you know, quite high levels.

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But the yellow oyster, there's different

varieties of that, um, and you can

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have quite vastly different levels.

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Golden oyster mushrooms are like

a kind of ergotheanine factory.

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So ergo plus from real mushrooms

is made using golden oyster.

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And you get a minimum of

five milligrams per capsule.

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So what is it?

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It's an, it's an antioxidant.

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that the body needs to maintain health.

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So our body doesn't manufacture vitamin C.

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For example, we have to

get that from our diet.

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We can't manufacture vitamin D.

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So we have to, we can from

cholesterol and sunlight, but we

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don't do that very efficiently.

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So we have to get some

from a supplemental source.

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So ergotheanine is in

that kind of Um, category.

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It doesn't quite meet the

definition of a vitamin.

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So, if you're deficient in ergothionine,

you don't get one specific disease.

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Like with, with, um,

vitamin C, you get scurvy.

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If you don't get enough

vitamin D, you'll get rickets.

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Um, so if you don't get enough, if,

if laboratory animals don't get enough

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ergothionine, they don't live as long.

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They, um, and they get more

diseases involving oxidative stress.

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So, ergotheanine is an antioxidant

that plays a role in just about

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all of the cells in the body.

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Um, to give an evolutionary importance

to it, because I can say the body needs

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it, but how do I prove that, um, you

know, the, the, the absorptive surfaces

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in our gut have got transporters that are

dedicated for that particular molecule.

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They move a few other things, but

ergotheanine is the primary thing.

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They bring that in from the gut.

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And our digestion is almost 100

percent complete on the ability to,

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to bring that molecule into our body.

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And then all of the cells in

our body have got these same

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transporters to take that molecule in.

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And then the biology of it, because

antioxidants, you know, it's a difficult

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kind of complex topic to talk about.

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Um, but every cell, um, is, has got the

ability to produce energy and respiration.

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So the waste production of those cells,

like the exhaust out of your petrol

244

driven car, um, that waste, um, is toxic.

245

Um, it also signals, you know,

certain, um, cellular processes.

246

So it has some positive roles as

well, but it, it needs to be dealt

247

with because if that waste builds

up, then the cells can't function

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and that waste is acidic in nature.

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So if you don't deal with your stress

at that cellular level properly,

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cells become more acidic and then.

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Proteins don't work

properly and you get stress.

252

And, um, you know, the most obvious sign

of that is like when your muscles cramp up

253

at the, at the fatigue point in exercise,

the pH gets so high in your muscle cells

254

that they just kind of stop working.

255

So, uh, ergotheanine plays a

role in managing that pH change.

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So it's, it's a backup defense

supporting glutathione to ensure that

257

All of the cells in the body, um, are

always in optimal kind of conditions.

258

And if you have low levels of

ergothionine, then all sorts of diseases

259

of oxidative stress start to manifest.

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So if you have low ergothionine

across your lifespan, you'll

261

have more cardiovascular disease.

262

As we were just discussing, um,

you'll have more neurodegenerative

263

disease, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's,

mild cognitive impairment.

264

You as an older person,

you won't sleep as well.

265

Um, you're more likely to

get macular degeneration.

266

If you're a woman, you're more

likely to have preeclampsia.

267

Um, if you're a woman, you're more likely

to have, you know, a, a birth, which is,

268

might be below weight or, or overweight.

269

There's all of these very.

270

highly specific things that we can, we

can talk about in terms of ergotheanine.

271

But we need only about four

or five milligrams a day to

272

give what the body needs.

273

And the average American is

only getting, uh, about 1.

274

1 milligrams a day based on the

epidemiology that's been done.

275

So every American has got a, a nutritional

deficiency of this key molecule.

276

Which helps to play into the

disease burden that we, we see in

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the population as people get older.

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And so is, why is it so hard

to get it in for Americans?

279

Like why, uh, is it just, we're, we're

just not eating foods that contain it?

280

Like, for example, if we did have more,

what was it porcini that you mentioned,

281

or like the yellow oyster mushrooms?

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Like if we were eating that on a more

regular basis, would it be a very

283

obtainable amount to hit in a day?

284

That's the best answer, and the

reason for the low levels is that

285

the average, the average American's

not eating enough mushrooms.

286

And it doesn't matter what sort

of mushroom it is, and most of the

287

epidemiology is done on mushrooms that

are commonly eaten as foods, so that's

288

like agaricus mushroom, so porcini, uh,

not porcini, portobello, button, crimini.

289

Um, or from an Asian perspective,

uh, you know, where a lot of this

290

epidemiology is done, shiitake,

oyster, um, wood ear mushrooms, enoki.

291

So, those mushrooms, you only

need to eat them, uh, you

292

know, like a few times a week.

293

to get the benefits in these

cognitive trials, for example.

294

So the other place that ergo

comes from is the soil fungi and

295

certain bacteria in the soil.

296

So plants will take it up.

297

So you get, people get some

ergotheionine from plants, but it's

298

one to two orders of magnitude less.

299

So it's 10 to a hundred times less.

300

Uh, from a plant that

it is from a mushroom.

301

So the problem with plant sourced ergo

theanine is that modern agricultural

302

practices, which rely on heavy tilling

and lots of fertilizer disrupt the

303

fungal environment in the soil.

304

And it doesn't, there's not as

much fungi, so the plants don't get

305

as much ergo thine, uh, you know,

when the, when plants are grown

306

in that intense agricultural way.

307

So, the other problem is that we, and

we don't know the answer to this, that

308

as people age, they tend to reduce

their plasma levels of ergothionine.

309

So even though you might be

taking it, your body might not

310

be as efficient at taking it up.

311

Or there might be a much greater

need for it so it gets consumed.

312

So, um, you know, as we, as

we age, it puts a greater

313

emphasis on supplementing it.

314

But to put, to put like a full

stop on the comment, um, we need to

315

redesign the food pyramid so that

vegetables and mushrooms get separated

316

because currently they're together.

317

So we need mushrooms

as their own category.

318

And the dietary advice needs to be.

319

eat as many mushrooms as you can a

week, uh, at least, um, twice a week.

320

And if you want to be really healthy,

you could replace a meat dish once or

321

twice a week with, with the same amount

of mushrooms to, um, you know, prevent

322

that or take a mushroom supplement

every day, like real mushrooms, ergo

323

plus just one capsule a day, Monday

to Friday, and you're done and dusted.

324

Yeah.

325

It's, uh, coming back to the, Eating

of mushrooms and like, consuming

326

them as like a culinary experience.

327

I guess I will say, uh, oyster

mushrooms is probably the closest.

328

meat alternative that

I've ever had personally.

329

Um, I mean, I do eat meat, but when I

was down in, uh, Cusco, uh, in Peru,

330

there was a little cafe and I got like

a, a mixed bowl with quinoa and other

331

things, but it had oyster mushroom.

332

And I have no idea.

333

What kind of seasoning they put on it,

but I swear it was the best Mushroom

334

like meat alternative that I could

have ever experienced and alls It

335

was was literally oyster mushroom

the way they cooked it and seasoned.

336

It was perfect But um, does that

have something to do with the

337

like because I've heard that we

share more DNA with mushrooms

338

than mushrooms share with plants.

339

Is that correct?

340

Yeah, that is correct.

341

Um, it does.

342

Does that play a role in

the texture of the mushroom?

343

Um, no, but, um, it plays a

role in the overall context

344

of what we're talking about.

345

Um, oyster mushrooms, I think

are very, very underrated as

346

a, as a, as a medicinal food.

347

So they're very high in the ergotheanine

that we just talked about, but.

348

There's a, there's a lot of clinical

trials in, particularly in children

349

where if you, if you give children oyster

mushroom extracts on a regular basis, they

350

get significantly less winter infections.

351

They're not as severe.

352

They don't last as long.

353

They have less complications and

they're more vital, you know,

354

when they finish that infection.

355

So the immunological benefits of oyster

mushrooms a bit underrated, but the,

356

that evolutionary connection that you

mentioned, um, if you go back in time,

357

I don't know the exact point, but, you

know, it doesn't really matter that much.

358

Let's just say a thousand million

years, so like a billion years

359

ago, um, animals and fungi had a

common ancestor, so we've split off.

360

If you went further back in time,

you'd get to where plants split

361

off from their common ancestor.

362

which was, you know, our

fungal animal common ancestor.

363

So, when we, when animals and

fungi broke off, um, a lot of the

364

cellulum machinery, um, was retained.

365

And some of it identically,

and some of it analogously.

366

So, uh, depending on which scientific

paper you look at, it's about 30

367

percent of the DNA that, that a

human shares with, with a fungus.

368

And you can, in a fungus, um, it

uses Ergotheanine is its primary

369

antioxidant inside the cells, and

glutathione is the secondary antioxidant.

370

And there's a unique one in a

mushroom, in a fungus called mycothiol.

371

But in humans, the, the, the main,

um, intracellular water soluble

372

antioxidant is glutathione, and the

backup antioxidant is ergotheanine.

373

So they're the same two molecules, but

when you come into the animal, they get

374

flipped around in terms of how they work.

375

So there's a direct one to one

relationship between how fungus

376

Or fungal organisms and animals,

humans, all vertebrates, um,

377

control their intracellular stress.

378

Um, another clear

correlation is cholesterol.

379

So we need cholesterol molecules

in our cell membranes to make them,

380

um, pliable and conduct the right,

you know, signals, et cetera.

381

Um, so in humans we have cholesterol, in

a fungus we have ergosterol or ergosterol.

382

And they have almost identical shapes.

383

And if you expose ergosterol to

sunlight, you get vitamin D2.

384

And if you expose cholesterol

to sunlight, you get vitamin D3.

385

And then from there, it becomes a lot

more kind of scientific and nerdy, but

386

there's lots of intracellular stuff that

we share in terms of how the cells work,

387

cytoskeletal arrangements and particular

enzymes and And, um, protein pathways.

388

So it's, it really is fascinating that,

you know, we've got this close history.

389

And because we've got that shared

history and we happen together, and

390

this, these early events happened in

the primordial ocean, so a fungus was

391

always trying to attack a, uh, an animal.

392

Because we all need food to survive.

393

So fungi, like, like animals, they

breathe oxygen, um, and they need to

394

digest their food, but a fungus doesn't

have a stomach, so it secretes its

395

digestive juices on the outside, and

then sucks in the nutrients that have

396

been digested in through its cell wall.

397

Um, our, um, our warm blooded

nature is a relatively recent, um,

398

kind of invention, biologically.

399

And, uh, a fungus has a lot of

trouble attacking, um, an animal.

400

We've got all of these elaborate

defenses that have developed over,

401

uh, four or 500 million years.

402

The earliest defense proteins

that are observed in sea sponges

403

are like 400 million years old.

404

So the human body has

got incredible vigilance.

405

For the presence of a pathogenic fungi.

406

So that's why we don't

get many fungal diseases.

407

You know, we get tinea, we get

athlete's foot, we get jock itch,

408

um, you know, we get ringworm, you

know, getting serious fungal diseases

409

only happens in people that are

immunocompromised or they're on drugs

410

that are suppressing their immune system.

411

So.

412

Um, part of that approach, uh, that our

body has is that it's, it's very vigilant

413

to the recognition of the beta glucan

signatures that fungal organisms have, and

414

that kind of sets the alarm bells ringing.

415

So when we consume a medicinal or

a functional mushroom, it doesn't

416

have any pathogenic properties.

417

It's not, you know, not like, um,

you know, that TV show where the

418

cordyceps started infecting humans.

419

You know, that, that can't

happen, but these molecules.

420

still ring the alarm bells, but they

ring the alarm bells in a way of the

421

immune system to tell the immune system,

Hey, I'm not pathogenic, but you real,

422

I could be, um, you need to be more

vigilant about surveying your environment.

423

You need to be more capable

of responding to infections.

424

You need to be better at communicating

very specific messages that

425

deal with very specific threats.

426

And you need to be able to

control the whole process.

427

without getting too crazy without

having, you know, a burden of

428

too much, uh, inflammation, which

might take you down, you know,

429

kind of like an autoimmune disease.

430

So medicinal mushrooms deliver these

really educated messages that keep the

431

immune system and all of the cells in

our body that can communicate with the

432

immune system in a healthy, balanced way.

433

So that.

434

We can be free of disease

as we live our lives.

435

And part of the problem I think with

a modern human is that we don't, we

436

haven't understood this very well.

437

Science has been really

slow to investigate this.

438

Mycophobia exists as a real

thing with our diet, but it

439

also exists in scientists minds.

440

Though a lot of fungal discoveries have

been delayed because people just haven't,

441

they haven't even thought about a fungus.

442

Or they haven't, um, you know,

investigated it because of the

443

inherent bias that they've got.

444

And we can talk about it later if

you want to, but that plays into, um,

445

paleological and, um, evolutionary

diets, you know, the, the consumption of

446

meat that we attribute to early humans.

447

It's based on isotopes of carbon and

nitrogen that are measured in ancient

448

skeletons by looking at the collagen.

449

Well, when you eat a mushroom, it

delivers the same isotopes of carbon and

450

nitrogen, so all of the research that says

humans ate this much protein has never

451

taken into account the fact that early

humans were avid consumers of mushrooms.

452

So the amount of mushrooms that we consume

in our diet has been overlooked totally,

453

uh, because there's kind of scant evidence

and there's been no interest in doing it.

454

So the whole evolutionary

thing is really fascinating.

455

And I've coined this term called the, uh,

Gourmet ape theory to describe the fact

456

that, you know, um, Terence McKenna was

the proponent of the stoned ape theory,

457

that psychedelics were played a big part

in the development of the human brain.

458

But I think mushrooms in general,

um, as a food, and particularly

459

the ergothenia have played a really

important role, uh, for a much longer

460

period of time in the development,

you know, of the, of the modern human.

461

It's a really fascinating topic.

462

It absolutely is.

463

I mean, there's a, I'm pretty much just

here like in a lecture cause I am, I'm

464

taking notes, you know, sorry about that.

465

No, no, don't, don't apologize.

466

Like I, I enjoy this and

it's super fascinating to me.

467

Um, uh, I, I agree with, you know,

the, the gourmet theory here,

468

uh, in the gourmet ape, right.

469

Um, because yeah, I do think.

470

Obviously we've been consuming mushrooms

for a long time and, and, uh, who knows

471

what, what role that's played and, and,

you know, going back and looking at,

472

like you said, looking at the isotopes

and checking these out, like obviously

473

more research needs to be done for us

to have a strong understanding on that.

474

But I really want to go into

these medicinal mushrooms

475

and we're going to dive deep.

476

But I have to take us back just a

little bit because there's a question

477

I've always wondered and you kind of

mentioned it, but so it is true that

478

if you take mushrooms and put them

out in sunlight for 30 minutes or so

479

before cooking them, it's a good idea

to increase by it'll like it'll increase

480

the vitamin D levels of the mushrooms.

481

It will.

482

Yeah.

483

So, um, it depends on the latitude

in the world where you are.

484

It depends on the time of the year.

485

So, um, you know, summer, the more

vertical the sun is, the more particular

486

UV rays you get to do that job.

487

So, um, if you're going to do that,

gills up is the best way because

488

there's lots of ergosterol in the gills.

489

There's less like in the.

490

surface.

491

Um, if you want to go to the trouble

of cutting them up, that's even better

492

because you increase the surface area.

493

It works with fresh and

dried mushrooms as well.

494

So if you put a powder out, um,

you'll get that conversion as well.

495

However, I'm, I would consider myself

a mycophile and I started doing

496

that and it gets old really quickly.

497

You do it maybe half a dozen times

and you're like, Oh, Damn, I'm just

498

gonna go and buy, you know, a ready

made one and Real Mushrooms has got

499

a vitamin D2 product where the, the

mushrooms are, um, irradiated with

500

UV light to optimize the, the vitamin

D2 and you can get a guaranteed dose.

501

But if you are the more OCD type

and you can create a habit around

502

doing something like that, then,

uh, yeah, you should go for it.

503

Um, it's, it's a legitimate thing to do.

504

Okay, good.

505

Yeah, I was, I was curious on it.

506

I think I will fall into the same category

as you where, um, you know, I sometimes

507

like forget to take, I don't know,

chicken or whatever out of the freezer.

508

It's like, Oh my God.

509

So cutting up mushrooms and putting

them in the sunlight is probably just

510

going to be a another barrier there.

511

But in terms of, uh, real mushrooms,

which obviously we, uh, we've kind of

512

just skimmed over it and, and I want to

give you the opportunity to, uh, talk

513

a little bit more about real mushrooms.

514

Cause, you know, They're amazing.

515

I love what y'all are about.

516

But one of the things that, um,

you were mentioning that real

517

mushrooms does, uh, is this dual

extraction, which is super important.

518

Um, but also you, uh, using, sorry,

sorry, actually extracting from both

519

the fruiting body and the mycelium.

520

So for a while, uh, I don't know, four

or five years ago, Uh, I kind of got to a

521

point where I wasn't super, I don't know.

522

I didn't really care to take mycelium.

523

I was more so just, uh, focused on

the fruiting body because you could

524

know that, Hey, this is fruiting body.

525

It is like pure mushroom that we're,

you know, either consuming or having

526

the extract of, whereas the mycelium,

uh, typically grown on rice or, you

527

know, who knows what the medium is, but

then, uh, it's very difficult to know.

528

What the quantity is of that

that you're receiving in there.

529

So for a while, I was really big on

pretty much just going with fruiting body.

530

And if I did get some mycelium, it was.

531

Here or there.

532

I believe there is some huge benefit in

the mycelium, but how do we get around

533

this issue of the Medium kind of taking

up a majority of quote unquote mycelium

534

when we're taking like a supplement Yeah,

it's a, it's a really good question.

535

It's quite a vexing question.

536

As a, like, as a practicing medical

herbalist, um, and someone, you

537

know, I, I put myself in the position

as, you know, like a mentor and an

538

educator and as well as promoting,

um, Um, you know, good health.

539

I'm also cognizant of making sure

that I honor the traditions that I

540

come from, though, when you step out

of that clinical realm where, you

541

know, the focus is on doing whatever

is the right thing by the patient.

542

When you come into the retail world, Kind

of, it's a bit like guerrilla tactics,

543

like the gloves are off, uh, people can

say anything they like, people can make

544

anything they like, they don't feel any

compunction to honor any tradition or

545

validate, you know, the, the science

around any unique discoveries that,

546

that they might think that they've made.

547

So it's created a lot of

confusion in the marketplace.

548

So I think one of the, one of the really

important impressive things about real

549

mushrooms is that they honor the tradition

from which functional mushrooms come from.

550

And the products that they produce are

a reflection of those kind of ancient

551

kind of practices and the traditional

knowledge that's come through time.

552

And the products are all

focused on fruiting bodies.

553

Mushrooms is kind of like the generic

term that we use because that's

554

where all of the tradition is.

555

Um, so if we want to think about

mycelium, um, mycelium is the

556

main body of the fungal organism.

557

It's what seeks out food.

558

Um, it's, it's focus is on survival

throughout, not just its lifespan,

559

but, um, creating the environment

so that its offspring can, uh, you

560

know, perpetuate into the future.

561

So the, the mycelium is, is like the

main body of the organism and it's

562

got a particular genetic makeup.

563

That's around seeking out food, uh,

defending itself against predators,

564

defending itself against stressful

environments, and surviving through time.

565

And then, when the conditions are right,

that organism will say, okay, it's,

566

now's the right time to reproduce.

567

So, it will produce Um, a, uh,

a reproductive structure and

568

depending on the type of fungus,

you know, there's different forms.

569

So we use the word mushroom, but,

um, a cordyceps, uh, reproductive

570

structure has got different morphology

and characteristics to a shiitake

571

mushroom, which is different to

chaga, which is different to reishi.

572

So there's kind of nuances, but so

when the, when the timing is right, a

573

reproductive structure will get produced.

574

And the purpose of that reproductive

structure is to make spores, which will

575

then unite, grow a little, little version

of a hyphae, and then they'll unite with

576

another organism's spore, and then you'll

get like a sexual reproduction, and then

577

you can get a continuation of the species.

578

So, the purpose of the, of the

reproductive structure is to do

579

that, but it's also to, ensure

the dispersal of those spores.

580

So a lot of different mushrooms have

got different dispersal techniques,

581

and then those mushrooms need to

defend themselves against animal

582

grazing, insect attack, um, bacterial

infiltration, et cetera, et cetera.

583

So the chemistry of that reproductive

structure is significantly different

584

to the chemistry of the mycelium.

585

They're, they're

completely different parts.

586

So if I said to you, Evan, you know,

close your eyes, I've got the, I've

587

got the best apple, um, you've,

you've ever tasted in the world.

588

This is going to just blow your

hair back and put your hand out

589

and I'll, I'll put it in your hand.

590

And then I'll ask you to open your eyes.

591

And in your hand is an apple leaf.

592

And you'll be like, what the hell, Lee?

593

Like you don't eat apple leaves.

594

You eat apple fruit.

595

And that's the distinction that you have

between just using that silly example.

596

Um, if you wanted the perfect example,

the apple is the reproductive structure

597

or the mushroom and the entire rest

of the tree is the fungal organism.

598

So you can't compare them.

599

Um, so scientists back in the 60s

and 70s discovered that the beta

600

glucans from some of these mushrooms.

601

If you could purify them and treat

them in a particular way, you could

602

get these really powerful medicines.

603

And they needed vast amounts of,

of, um, beta glucan to do that.

604

And the easiest and most cost

effective way to do it was to grow

605

the mycelium in a liquid tank.

606

And it would never produce

a reproductive structure.

607

And then when you finished your

production, you'd drain the tank,

608

you'd get the mycelium, and then

you would extract that mycelium

609

to get access to the beta glucans.

610

So these very highly

specific drugs were made.

611

And they're what's used to treat

cancers and all sorts of diseases.

612

And in countries like China and

Japan and Korea and Taiwan, they've

613

got kind of legitimate drug status.

614

Um, so when you grow mycelium like that,

um, it doesn't have the same nutrients

615

so it can't make the same molecules.

616

So reishi fruiting bodies are very high

in the bit of triterpenes, but reishi

617

mycelium grown in a tank doesn't have

any triterpenes because it doesn't have

618

the raw materials to make them because

they come from the wood from the tree.

619

So if you wind forward, then some, some

bright spark at some point said we grow

620

mycelium on grain as the starting point

for the reproductive structure production.

621

So we grow mushrooms by creating grain

spawn and then using that to inoculate

622

the medium to get the, get the mushrooms.

623

So some bright spark said, let's grow

mycelium on brown rice or sorghum or oats.

624

And then we won't let those

Substrates produce fruiting bodies.

625

They might have little primordial, uh,

mushrooms, but, um, and then we'll grind

626

that up and sell it as if it's a mushroom.

627

Um, and that's a really dominant

part of the, of the market.

628

Those products may have clinical value.

629

The, the, it's still early

days in the research.

630

Um, if any, any value is derived

from those products, it doesn't

631

come from the fungal part.

632

Um, and if you just give me a couple of

more minutes to just tease that out a

633

little bit when you inoculate brown rice

with Uh, mycelium, and the conversion of

634

the brown rice to mycelium is never 100%.

635

Um, if you've ever had tempeh, you

know, you can still see the, the,

636

the soybeans, like in the tempeh, you

know, they don't all get converted.

637

I went and looked at some patents, and

some of the, The mycelium, uh, on grain

638

producers have got patents around these

products and they recommend, or they

639

suggest, around 35 percent conversion.

640

So, if you had a kilogram of brown rice,

that was wet and then you inoculated it

641

with say, turkey tail, um, at the end of

the manufacturing process, you'd have 650

642

grams of, of brown rice because 35 percent

of it would be converted to mycelium.

643

Mycelium is 90 percent water.

644

Brown rice is 50 percent water.

645

So if you dried that and we're taping

this, so people can go back and listen

646

to it again if the maths is a bit much.

647

So when you dry that, you've got, um,

You've got 325 grams of brown rice

648

because half of 650 is 325, and 10 percent

of 350 is 35 grams of dried mycelium.

649

So when you add those weights together

and then you do the calculation,

650

The dried mycelium is only about 9.

651

7, say 10 percent of that total weight.

652

So, when you analyze those products,

they don't have beta glucans in them,

653

um, only very, very small amounts.

654

They don't have ergotheanine

in them at detectable levels.

655

They have very low levels of any of

the secondary metabolites, in some

656

cases no secondary metabolites.

657

So, they're not a fungal product,

and two capsules which delivers a

658

thousand milligrams only contains

a hundred milligrams of mycelium.

659

Those products typically aren't extracted,

so you need to boil the mycelium to

660

get access to any of the beta glucans.

661

So that might be one of the reasons why

the beta glucan numbers are so high.

662

Uh, like very, very low

non non therapeutic levels.

663

So, uh, by marketing those

products as if they're a mushroom,

664

clearly they're not a mushroom.

665

They have no relationship to a mushroom.

666

They're a fungal fermented food.

667

So they should be classified

as a fermented kind of food if

668

they have any benefits at all.

669

And some of the research

suggests they might be.

670

It's to do with what the fungus

is doing to the brown rice.

671

Um, it's fermenting.

672

It's not the exactly correct

term, but it's close enough.

673

Um, so that there might be unique

molecules being created there, which

674

might, um, describe the benefits.

675

But, um, from my point of view,

and I'm, because I'm so old, I'm

676

65 next month, I've seen lots of,

I've seen lots of trends ruin,

677

um, you know, product categories.

678

Uh, when they're done well, so my fear is

that, you know, those products don't work

679

like a mushroom and people will take them

expecting the mushroom benefits because

680

that's how they're promoted and marketed,

uh, but people will do it for long enough,

681

but they won't get the benefits and then

they'll say the whole mushroom category is

682

no good and they'll give up on mushroom.

683

So, um, and those

products, they're kind of.

684

You know, their history is

with switch and bait marketing.

685

You know, they've tricked people into

thinking that they've been getting a

686

mushroom when they're really just getting

a bit of, you know, myceliated grain.

687

It's a bit scandalous, really.

688

So you can tell I'm a bit

passionate about this.

689

It kind of makes my

blood boil a little bit.

690

That there's this confusion and you

have to go to such elaborate lengths to

691

explain it and in a podcast like yours,

it's great that you allow me to just

692

talk because with a sound bite, with

like a 15 second snippet, you can never

693

convey the complexity that's needed

to convince someone that, you know,

694

there are these differences that exist

and they, they really are important.

695

Um, and you need to take them into

account if you're wanting to get

696

the best out of your supplement.

697

That's a bit of a rant, eh?

698

But, um, I see you kind of

nodding as I'm going along.

699

I, once again, I find this super

fascinating and it's, it's something

700

I've like always wondered about.

701

Uh, especially because I really

do, I enjoy, uh, Modesto mushrooms.

702

And, you know, I believe

that there's a ton of benefit

703

from them, especially for me.

704

I mean, uh, you know, of course,

having scientific backing is huge.

705

And I think it's it's the route to go.

706

Like, we want to back

our stuff in science.

707

But I think also that until the

science catches up, it's also

708

really important to look at it.

709

Just the history it's had in

being used in certain cultures.

710

And, um, you know, the, like we

said, like Shaga, the king of the

711

mushrooms and Rishi, the queen, like

longevity mushroom, and, you know,

712

they've used these for so many years.

713

And so I, well, I like to look at that

and see the benefits there and then try

714

it out for myself and see what works,

but, um, I, I kind of just want to.

715

Really quickly come back to this

point, which thank you for, for

716

diving so deep on to excite.

717

I love that.

718

But, um, so the, would you say then the

best method of consuming like medicinal

719

mushrooms in a supplement, would that

be, uh, specifically the fruiting body?

720

Um, and then not really having

the mycelium in there or a

721

mixture of the two as well.

722

Do we want that dual

extraction of alcohol?

723

like a water extraction.

724

Um, yeah.

725

What, what's like the top level that

we could get here for the average, uh,

726

you know, consumer, it's the, it's the

mushroom or the fruiting body, which

727

should occupy, uh, you know, the, the

main focus, uh, of the consumption.

728

And the reason for that is, and you

eloquently, eloquently described, you

729

know, the term evidence based medicine.

730

Um, So when we say evidence based

medicine, everybody thinks, oh, there's

731

got to be a research study to back it up.

732

But that isn't the correct definition

of evidence based medicine.

733

Evidence based medicine

relies on tradition.

734

So you're guided by what

your peers did in the past.

735

Um, and then you're guided

by your clinical practice.

736

So that you're playing

it out in real time.

737

Does it work?

738

Doesn't it work under what conditions,

you know, is it optimal or not optimal?

739

And then when the research is

being done, you're being guided

740

by the research, which guides the

future direction of that tradition.

741

And then you embody that research.

742

If we wait.

743

You know, you can do a

little bit of research.

744

It takes 15 years for it to get into

the conventional medical system.

745

So there's got to be this active

kind of interaction between the

746

practice of it and the research of it.

747

So that's why, you know,

people like me are important.

748

You know, I'm not just a commentator

or, you know, like a company,

749

you know, kind of representative.

750

I'm a, I'm a practicing, you

know, health care professional.

751

So I do both.

752

So, um, the fruiting body is where all of

the tradition is and the fruiting bodies

753

give the complexity, um, that allows us to

access the traditional knowledge so that

754

we don't need to rely always on a clinical

trial because we won't have the clinical

755

trials because they haven't all been done.

756

So if you want to get the, the,

um, you know, the male health

757

benefits from cordyceps, we don't

have a clinical trial for that.

758

So if you're purely going on the

evidence, you would never use cordyceps.

759

But all of the animal studies are really

quite profound about how cordyceps can

760

protect, um, you know, testicular tissue.

761

They can protect the, the, um,

testosterone and the, and the, the sperm

762

quality against external stressors.

763

And we've got the tradition around

cordyceps being used, um, as an

764

aphrodisiac, you know, which is kind

of like the old fashioned terminology

765

around, you know, the modern

understanding of testosterone, et cetera.

766

So the only way we can tap into

that traditional knowledge is by

767

use what they use traditionally.

768

And that's the fruiting body.

769

There are cases where if you've got

a pure mycelium product, which is

770

produced as a liquid culture, and

you've got a, and these, these products

771

are all focused on the beta glucans.

772

And that's a different kind of, it's

a subcategory of the whole mushroom.

773

So if you've got reishi, um,

beta glucans from mycelium, um,

774

it doesn't have any triterpenes.

775

Uh, it doesn't have any ergotheanine,

doesn't have any ergosterol.

776

So you're getting a very specific,

um, application and that really needs

777

then to be guided by the science.

778

So there needs to be clinical trials

to say, yeah, if you take this

779

product that's going to do this.

780

And it'll be particularly

relevant to your immune system.

781

Or if you have some other nefarious

thing going on, you know, like it

782

might be beneficial, but that has to

be guided by the research because that

783

wasn't how it was done traditionally.

784

Um, and then, you know, the mycelium

on grain shouldn't be seen as mycelium,

785

shouldn't be seen as a, as a, as a,

as a mushroom or a fungal product.

786

It should be seen as a

fungally fermented food.

787

And it's a totally different category.

788

And that needs to be

driven by its own evidence.

789

But currently that Mog for short mycelium

on grain or myceliated grain they

790

piggyback off all of the traditional

knowledge which comes from The the

791

mushroom or the fruiting body and the

chemistry of the two is totally different

792

as i've described You know, the nature

of the products are totally different.

793

So It's fraudulent to use that traditional

knowledge to back up the use of of a of

794

a supplement, which is totally different.

795

Um, so for the most part,

it's the fruiting body.

796

And then under quite specific conditions,

you know, the properly manufactured

797

submerged culture, um, beta glue cans.

798

But the way the labeling laws

are in the US, it can be quite

799

challenging for the consumer to

actually Arrive at that information.

800

Um, and you know, not all the

companies are very forthcoming,

801

um, at divulging that.

802

Yeah, that tends to be kind of an issue.

803

And does that help clarify it for you?

804

Yes.

805

Yeah.

806

No, absolutely.

807

Um, so I, and I, and I think I was

kind of, um, Path with really kind of

808

just focusing on on the fruiting body.

809

Um, primarily.

810

And yeah, so I'm going to continue,

uh, stick with the fruiting

811

body in that in that direction.

812

Um, and then I also wanted

to highlight a point that.

813

You brought up last time, which I thought

was really important to make here.

814

And that's about, um, you know, kind of

the stigma as well around like mushrooms

815

being grown in China and produced and

then, you know, consuming those and

816

kind of all the questions around it.

817

Is it being done properly?

818

This and that.

819

Um, and I know you were mentioning that.

820

Mushrooms and pretty much the

practice of medicinal mushrooms and

821

use of them Originated in china.

822

That is where it started and really, um,

you know by finding a good provider you're

823

literally helping helping to promote the

uh, preservation of that practice and that

824

stewardship of these medicinal mushrooms,

so um, yeah, like Just guide our listeners

825

through why it's okay to consume that.

826

Yeah.

827

You kind of summed it up.

828

I think, you know, when you mentioned

China in a conversation, particularly

829

in relation to a dietary supplement,

whether it's a nutrient or a herb or

830

a mushroom, you know, the, the red

flags get raised and, and rightly

831

so, cause you know, there's a lot

of, a lot of unethical practices.

832

But China is not unique in

those unethical practices.

833

I mean, they happen here in Australia.

834

They happen there where you are in the US.

835

I mean, there isn't any country that's

immune from, um, you know, unethical

836

behavior seems to be a, you know, a

human problem, you know, worldwide.

837

So you're right.

838

The China is the, you know, for,

for many of these mushrooms,

839

it's their ancestral homeland.

840

It's where they've been used as medicines.

841

And, um, you know, in some cases the

people that grow them have been doing

842

it, you know, as their livelihood, you

know, multi generationally and the, the

843

avid consumption of mushrooms now has

created the economics where, you know,

844

those, those people who lived quite poor

lives, you know, now have the opportunity

845

to prosper as a result of the big

demand, you know, that's being created.

846

So when you grow mushrooms, you know, in

the, in the wilds of China, like China

847

is a massive place, you know, it's,

it's not polluted across its entirety.

848

So, you know, if you're growing

herbs by the highway, um, you know,

849

they're going to be covered in cadmium

from the brake linings, you know,

850

and all of that sort of rubbish,

and that happens in India as well.

851

Um, so you, you have to be careful

with your sourcing, but, you know,

852

It's not just uniquely about mushrooms.

853

It happens with herbs as well.

854

So when you grow mushrooms, um, you

know, in those pristine environments

855

under organic conditions, and I would

never buy a product from China unless

856

it was organic, uh, you know, and

certified by a proper certifying body.

857

So all of, all of real

mushrooms products are organic.

858

Um, and there's, there's the ability

to interact with the grower and I've

859

had a long history in herbal medicine.

860

Um, a long history in practitioner

focused herbal medicine where

861

the growing relationships have

existed across the whole world.

862

You know, companies might say

they grow all of them, all

863

of their herbs in America.

864

But all companies might say they

grow all of their herbs in Australia.

865

It's not possible because, you

know, to some extent, certain herbs

866

need certain climatic conditions.

867

Um, and they only grow in

certain ecological niches.

868

So you really get forced to go wherever

you need to go in the world to get

869

the very best quality and qualities,

um, to do with the phytochemistry.

870

Uh, of the of the product.

871

Um, and then this issue of purity

and consistency, um, you know,

872

a kind of secondary measures.

873

So Real Mushrooms is very focused

on the chemistry of the mushroom,

874

um, delivering the best that we

know that that mushroom can offer.

875

So if you harvest turkey

tail from the wild.

876

For example, um, that's a hard thing to

do because, you know, it's pretty prolific

877

mushroom, but, you know, to satisfy the U.

878

S.

879

market, you know, you need a lot of

it, though, you know, there's a lot of,

880

it's a back breaking sort of exercise,

but that's, that's where it started,

881

and it was observed that the, the

variation that exists in the native,

882

in the wild populations of turkey tail

make it impossible to have a consistent,

883

um, profile of chemistry, And another

thing that gets talked about as being a

884

negative of this idea of standardization.

885

So standardization technically means

that the product that you make is

886

going to be the same all the time.

887

And if you if you describe a particular

quality around something you're

888

always going to meet that quality.

889

In the using a herbal example

standardization might be standardizing

890

for a particular molecule And then

the manufacturer can get a really high

891

quality herb so they don't need to use

as much to get that molecule or an un,

892

an unethical manufacturer could get a

really cheap herb, which has hardly any

893

of that substance in it, but they can

buy a lot of it really cheaply so they

894

can extract it and concentrate it and

just say, Hey, we've got the same amount

895

of that molecule as that other company.

896

But you miss all of the complex

chemistry that you've got.

897

So there are some weaknesses

in standardization that people

898

can kind of wiggle around.

899

Uh, but from a real mushrooms point

of view, um, working very closely

900

with growers, um, to develop strains

of mushroom, which deliver consistent

901

high efficacy, uh, means that you can

give the very best, you know, products.

902

So with turkey tail, That variety made it

impossible to have a consistent product.

903

So, uh, a certain amount of research

was done to say these varieties

904

give the right profiles of beta

glucans and triterpenes, et cetera.

905

Um, and some of the other

molecules that are there.

906

And then that strain can be bred

so that, you know, the whole

907

production has got similar genetics.

908

So then the products that you make are

going to be, um, you know, very similar.

909

Um, but I think it's a shame that, um,

you know, that China gets used as a wedge.

910

Um, you can make, you can grow a

good mushroom anywhere in the world.

911

Um, you know, if the conditions are

right, you've got the right substrate.

912

So if you want to grow reishi,

you need, you need wood.

913

Um, you can't grow it on brown rice

because you need wood because you need

914

the lignin, which provides the phenolics

that can then make the triterpene.

915

So you have to have a faith

and an understanding, uh, in

916

the tradition so that you grow

on, on the appropriate medium.

917

Um, you know, chaga can only come

from live trees, for example, you

918

know, it can't come from dead trees.

919

So you can grow a good

mushroom anywhere in the world.

920

Um, but it comes down to scale

and economics and companies thrive

921

because they make profits and

you can't shy away from that.

922

So, um, over the course of the lifespan

of a company, the locations and the

923

manufacturing processes and all of the

things that you do to make the company

924

successful, you know, are all kind of,

um, you know, balanced around that.

925

So, um, the, the.

926

Real mushrooms focus on

China ticks all the boxes.

927

You know, you can, you can honor the

tradition, you know, you can, you can

928

get the, you know, the economics, right.

929

And, uh, you can consistently deliver the

high volume that's necessary to support

930

the voracious appetite at the moment, you

know, across the whole mushroom space.

931

Cause it's not just about supplements.

932

That's the supplements are going

into foods and beverages and, you

933

know, the demand is just huge.

934

And keeping faith with the quality.

935

When the production numbers start to,

you know, skyrocket, when you're talking

936

about, you know, thousands of, you

know, kilograms, tons of this stuff,

937

um, it becomes really quite challenging.

938

Yeah.

939

And I think that it's

exactly what you said.

940

This is where third party

testings and certifications, you

941

know, like certified organic or

whatever the certification may be.

942

That's why it's important, you know,

like regardless of where you're growing

943

your, or, or, you know, getting your

ingredients from, uh, which, like

944

you said, we want to get it from

the place where it's specialized

945

and grows the best in that area.

946

Um, but yeah, you could third party test

to make sure that you're getting what, you

947

know, is being said is in that product.

948

And, uh, yeah, it's a good

way to go about it, I think.

949

Yeah.

950

And those test results are available,

you know, on the, on the Real

951

Mushrooms website for the products.

952

I love that.

953

You want to know the beta glucan levels.

954

If it's ratio, you want to know the,

the triterpene levels and then you

955

want to know that it's free of heavy

metals and it's free of pesticides and

956

aflatoxins and all of that sort of stuff.

957

Yeah.

958

Um, I know we're, uh, we're, we're getting

close to an hour here, which is wild.

959

The time for me has flown.

960

Yeah.

961

One of my, uh, one of my old

teachers, you say time, uh, Time's

962

fun when you're having flies.

963

Um, anyways, yeah, that's my, it's

my bad dad joke here, I guess.

964

But, uh, anyways, um, I wanted to

ask you a couple last questions here.

965

Um, first off, as I mentioned last

time with you, uh, you know, one of my.

966

Like North stars has

basically been gut health.

967

Um, cause it's obviously something

I've been dealing with as a kid

968

and then, and uh, you know, really

navigate my way and optimizing it.

969

So what would be the best mushroom for gut

health if we were going to focus on that?

970

Well, any mushroom will

be good for gut health.

971

So, uh, all of the mushrooms

have got Beta glucans.

972

If you're consuming whole mushrooms,

so if you're eating them in your

973

diet, or if you're using the real

mushrooms one to one extract powders

974

or capsules, then you're getting the

insoluble beta glucans and chitin,

975

as well as the soluble beta glucans.

976

And those molecules act as

prebiotics, so they're, they're

977

food for the beneficial bacteria.

978

So that helps to maintain a healthy bowel

flora, and a healthy bowel flora flora.

979

It's kind of like ground zero when

you're thinking about healthy gut, um.

980

Even the humble button mushroom, um, has

got soluble beta glucans in it, that when

981

you eat enough of them, um, they have

anti inflammatory effects in the gut.

982

So the soluble beta glucans block

particular inflammatory receptors and

983

down regulate inflammation, particularly

in people that have got a tendency

984

towards inflammatory bowel diseases.

985

So the bowel flora is kind of like primary

and all the mushrooms will do that.

986

So the more mushrooms we eat,

the healthier bowel flora we get.

987

And then a healthier bowel flora

means that we're then going to have,

988

um, you know, less inflammation.

989

We'll have less leaky gut.

990

Uh, et cetera, but then the action of

the beta glucans on the immune tissue,

991

um, So you, beta glucans, uh, you know,

the immune cells have got projections

992

that come through the lining of the gut.

993

So they're kind of

sampling that environment.

994

So beta glucans acting at those

receptors help to calm, um, the immune

995

system down and help to educate it.

996

So that immune layer which is

just underneath the epithelial

997

layer becomes a bit more happy and

harmonious and less inflammatory.

998

So, um, mushrooms play a very

important role as a foundation, um, in

999

maintaining an optimal gut environment.

01:03:01,605 --> 01:03:07,015

But if I was to just pick, say two

mushrooms, um, lion's mane has got,

01:03:07,885 --> 01:03:09,075

you know, the consciousness of.

01:03:10,265 --> 01:03:11,415

cognitive function around it.

01:03:11,455 --> 01:03:15,975

Like the mass kind of thinking is like,

it's the great mushroom for cognition.

01:03:15,975 --> 01:03:17,905

And it is, I'm not disagreeing with that.

01:03:18,955 --> 01:03:23,905

Uh, traditionally one of its primary

uses was for gastrointestinal health.

01:03:24,325 --> 01:03:28,205

Particularly chronic, chronic things

in the gut that would have been

01:03:28,205 --> 01:03:31,155

linked to chronic inflammation,

chronic inflammatory bowel diseases.

01:03:32,625 --> 01:03:35,635

And lion's mane was used in

quite high doses as a food.

01:03:35,685 --> 01:03:38,685

So anywhere north of like,

you know, five grams.

01:03:39,225 --> 01:03:40,515

So if you sat down and had.

01:03:40,850 --> 01:03:45,040

Like a whole head of, of lion's mane,

you know, you, you might get like a

01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:48,850

hundred grams, three or four ounces,

which might translate into like

01:03:48,850 --> 01:03:51,000

10 or 15 grams of dried mushroom.

01:03:51,330 --> 01:03:56,960

So that's number one, um, uh, in terms

of gut health and then tremella, um,

01:03:57,150 --> 01:04:01,410

on a regular basis, uh, is also really

significant for gut health as well.

01:04:01,410 --> 01:04:06,015

It's got a different type of,

um, polysaccharide arrangement.

01:04:06,015 --> 01:04:09,415

The beta glucans are in a

slightly different configuration.

01:04:09,455 --> 01:04:13,965

So you get good synergy between

the lion's mane and the tremella.

01:04:13,995 --> 01:04:16,085

So they work kind of really well together.

01:04:16,665 --> 01:04:19,195

And Pure Mushrooms has got both of those.

01:04:19,455 --> 01:04:23,420

Um, and Tramella is a

little bit mucilaginous.

01:04:23,450 --> 01:04:28,400

So if you put half a teaspoon into a hot

drink and stirred it up, um, then, you

01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:29,980

know, it makes it a little bit thicker.

01:04:30,029 --> 01:04:33,040

So you get a bit more mouth

feel, um, in the, in the drink.

01:04:34,470 --> 01:04:35,380

Oh, that's awesome.

01:04:35,410 --> 01:04:37,620

Um, yeah, I mean, I

already love Lion's Mane.

01:04:37,620 --> 01:04:39,740

I think I told you last time

that that is my favorite.

01:04:40,785 --> 01:04:41,705

But just no mushroom.

01:04:41,855 --> 01:04:42,985

It also tastes good.

01:04:42,995 --> 01:04:44,065

So it is nice to eat.

01:04:44,415 --> 01:04:46,154

Um, I didn't know that about tremella.

01:04:46,154 --> 01:04:52,415

And, and, um, I'm sure you could actually

put that into, uh, I know there's like

01:04:52,565 --> 01:04:56,035

hot cocoa mixes and stuff that they

do with like mushrooms, but maybe that

01:04:56,165 --> 01:04:58,045

would help to give it that thicker.

01:04:58,330 --> 01:04:58,840

Yeah, it does.

01:04:58,910 --> 01:05:01,930

And then when you get near the bottom,

you just need a spoon to stir it

01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:03,550

because some of that stuff settles out.

01:05:03,940 --> 01:05:07,840

So the last few mouthfuls will always

be just that little bit thicker.

01:05:08,190 --> 01:05:11,620

But I add tremella and lion's mane

to all of the foods that I cook.

01:05:11,650 --> 01:05:15,800

So if I'm frying just button mushrooms,

I'll add some lion's mane powder on there

01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:18,260

just to kind of up the therapeutic ante.

01:05:18,580 --> 01:05:20,790

Um, you can do the same with tremella.

01:05:20,870 --> 01:05:25,029

Um, I add lion's mane and

tremella to soups and casseroles.

01:05:25,835 --> 01:05:31,485

You can add any baking that you do, um,

that can be added to any of those things.

01:05:31,485 --> 01:05:36,295

They're both very versatile, bland,

neutral flavors, which are very compatible

01:05:36,295 --> 01:05:37,625

with just about any sort of taste.

01:05:38,115 --> 01:05:43,125

I've made some great stews with, um,

with tremella, um, you know, like things

01:05:43,125 --> 01:05:44,585

that you might put on the slow cooker.

01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:48,880

Um, you know, like chicken with a bunch

of fresh mushrooms and vegetables and

01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:53,740

a few spoons of tremella, you get,

you get a much thicker, syrupy kind

01:05:53,740 --> 01:05:56,580

of, um, soup, uh, as a result of that.

01:05:56,580 --> 01:05:57,190

It's delicious.

01:05:58,650 --> 01:05:59,310

That's awesome.

01:05:59,390 --> 01:05:59,810

Okay.

01:05:59,850 --> 01:06:01,820

I definitely have to give that a try.

01:06:01,850 --> 01:06:02,340

Um,

01:06:04,910 --> 01:06:05,430

Yeah, I know.

01:06:05,430 --> 01:06:07,750

You need to, you need to come out

with the mushroom recipe book.

01:06:08,460 --> 01:06:13,560

Um, no, and, and actually cooking

with mushrooms is something, um, I've

01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:14,870

been wanting to incorporate more.

01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:19,685

They tend to be a little on the pricier

side when you get into, you know, Some

01:06:19,685 --> 01:06:25,695

of these finer mushrooms, I would say,

really tasty and, and, um, obviously

01:06:25,695 --> 01:06:28,875

they have a lot of benefit, but last

question I do have here for you, Lee,

01:06:28,925 --> 01:06:33,585

was what is, if you had to like, get

rid of every mushroom, you can only

01:06:33,585 --> 01:06:36,705

have one for the rest of your life,

and that was the one you had to stick

01:06:36,705 --> 01:06:38,925

with, uh, which one would you choose?

01:06:40,775 --> 01:06:42,885

Oh, can I ask some qualifying questions?

01:06:43,165 --> 01:06:44,695

Um, yeah, absolutely.

01:06:44,935 --> 01:06:48,205

Like, am I on a desert island and

all I've got is the fish I catch

01:06:48,205 --> 01:06:49,555

and the coconuts off the trees?

01:06:49,615 --> 01:06:49,654

So.

01:06:50,255 --> 01:06:52,475

You know, my living in my

current environment and

01:06:52,475 --> 01:06:53,565

I've just got one mushroom.

01:06:55,845 --> 01:06:56,135

Okay.

01:06:56,135 --> 01:06:56,785

Well, you know what?

01:06:56,805 --> 01:06:59,645

I'll give you, I'll give you the

option to go with both routes.

01:06:59,645 --> 01:07:03,555

You can choose two different dimensions

here and two mushrooms on that.

01:07:03,605 --> 01:07:08,395

In the modern world, I'd go with

reishi because reishi has got things

01:07:08,395 --> 01:07:10,555

in it that no other mushroom has.

01:07:10,745 --> 01:07:13,565

It's not called the mushroom

of immortality for nothing.

01:07:13,915 --> 01:07:15,135

And I would, I take it.

01:07:15,165 --> 01:07:16,525

I've been doing it every day.

01:07:17,095 --> 01:07:18,775

01:07:18,865 --> 01:07:21,404

Uh, it's turning my white hair.

01:07:21,455 --> 01:07:25,235

My used to have just pure white hair, but

it's, Reishi's turning it black again.

01:07:25,235 --> 01:07:29,835

I've got like about 15 percent black

hairs now as a result of doing the Reishi.

01:07:29,835 --> 01:07:35,605

So there's, there's lots of things that

Reishi does, uh, in terms of resolving

01:07:35,875 --> 01:07:39,275

all sorts of processes to do with

aging in the body, which is why it's

01:07:39,275 --> 01:07:40,775

called the mushroom of immortality.

01:07:40,775 --> 01:07:42,005

You don't really live forever.

01:07:42,315 --> 01:07:44,404

You just, you have a healthier life.

01:07:44,404 --> 01:07:45,365

You have a healthier.

01:07:46,085 --> 01:07:48,515

You have a longer health span

is what I'm trying to say.

01:07:48,904 --> 01:07:52,305

So I want to, I don't want

to live to an advanced age.

01:07:52,305 --> 01:07:56,315

I mean, you know, 90 or 95 would be

nice, but I want to be really active

01:07:56,315 --> 01:07:59,255

and healthy through that entire span.

01:07:59,255 --> 01:08:01,835

I don't want to spend the last

20 years in a wheelchair or.

01:08:02,885 --> 01:08:07,195

in a hospital bed, you know, like in a

vegetative state, I want to be optimized

01:08:07,255 --> 01:08:09,325

so that I live life to the fullest.

01:08:09,815 --> 01:08:12,675

So I think Reishi kind of fits that bill.

01:08:12,675 --> 01:08:15,285

And I think, uh, you know,

for most people, that would

01:08:15,285 --> 01:08:16,774

be my recommendation as well.

01:08:16,774 --> 01:08:18,885

But in the real world,

we can't just have one.

01:08:19,189 --> 01:08:21,710

But, um, you know, that, that,

that would be the one that I

01:08:21,710 --> 01:08:22,979

would get people focused on.

01:08:23,270 --> 01:08:26,920

And Real Mushrooms has got the best

reishi, I think, on the market.

01:08:26,930 --> 01:08:30,090

Without, without me doing any

kind of marketing spin, I've

01:08:30,090 --> 01:08:30,970

looked at all the products.

01:08:31,260 --> 01:08:34,670

Um, you know, uh, it's got

the highest beta glucans, it's

01:08:34,670 --> 01:08:35,680

got the highest triterpenes.

01:08:37,020 --> 01:08:41,140

And if people want to, you know,

if I pique their interest on a real

01:08:41,170 --> 01:08:45,979

mushrooms brand, if you use my name,

Lee L double E, um, as the coupon

01:08:45,979 --> 01:08:50,460

code, uh, you can get an additional 20

percent off, off your first purchase.

01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:53,440

Or if you're a regular purchase, you

get 20 percent off your next purchase.

01:08:53,500 --> 01:08:56,700

So go and buy a bunch

of either one of those.

01:08:56,740 --> 01:08:59,569

But if you're looking for somewhere

to start, you know, maybe.

01:09:02,145 --> 01:09:08,215

Yeah, I think Rishi is like one of the

best ones to go with and also, uh, truly

01:09:08,225 --> 01:09:10,035

thank you for providing that code as well.

01:09:10,035 --> 01:09:14,175

Because I, I like to get our listeners

a little something here on the show.

01:09:14,194 --> 01:09:16,745

Uh, you know, says like a

thank you for, for tuning in.

01:09:16,745 --> 01:09:18,495

, but yeah, I really appreciate that Lee.

01:09:18,495 --> 01:09:21,765

It's, uh, it's really helpful

for, yeah, it's helpful for all

01:09:21,765 --> 01:09:25,505

the listeners and, um, as well

too, Lee, I want to give you the.

01:09:26,229 --> 01:09:30,180

The floor here to just also mention

where people can find you, um, anything

01:09:30,180 --> 01:09:33,490

else going on at Real Mushrooms

that people should know about, um,

01:09:33,500 --> 01:09:37,740

and then also just any last, uh,

parting words with the listeners,

01:09:37,740 --> 01:09:43,609

any, uh, 65 years of sage advice that

you can give is more than welcome.

01:09:44,050 --> 01:09:48,680

Yeah, um, I think I'd like to

say that, uh, Real Mushrooms

01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:49,720

is not just about humans.

01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:54,610

Mushrooms play a really important

role in pet health as well.

01:09:54,880 --> 01:09:58,750

So mushrooms has got a real mushrooms

has got a really good veterinary line.

01:09:58,790 --> 01:10:01,480

So, you know, there's

some great products there.

01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:04,500

So it's not just about, you know,

you, it's about, you know, looking

01:10:04,510 --> 01:10:06,460

after your animals as well.

01:10:07,010 --> 01:10:09,350

And if you want to.

01:10:09,580 --> 01:10:10,480

Connect with me.

01:10:10,510 --> 01:10:12,450

Uh, you can do that through the website.

01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:13,890

Lee at real mushrooms.

01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:14,430

com.

01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:17,140

Um, um, you know, shoot me an email.

01:10:18,090 --> 01:10:23,850

And I think my parting shot, like

my 65 years of kind of wisdom

01:10:23,930 --> 01:10:29,275

distilled into this mushroom

category is Um, start consuming

01:10:29,285 --> 01:10:31,385

mushrooms regularly and never stop.

01:10:31,875 --> 01:10:33,455

Like, it's not a fad.

01:10:33,825 --> 01:10:37,835

Uh, it's, it's not something that you

just want to do for a little bit of time.

01:10:37,865 --> 01:10:39,155

You want to do it for

the rest of your life.

01:10:39,725 --> 01:10:43,235

It'd be silly to think that you

could do all of your exercise

01:10:43,305 --> 01:10:44,845

that you need to do in a year.

01:10:45,684 --> 01:10:48,184

in one month of that year and then

have the rest of the year off.

01:10:48,184 --> 01:10:50,915

If you want to build your muscles

up, you can't go to the gym just

01:10:51,225 --> 01:10:55,855

once, once, um, one week out of a

month, you've got to go every week.

01:10:55,855 --> 01:11:00,425

So if you want to exercise your mushroom

muscles, uh, which mean that you'll live

01:11:00,425 --> 01:11:04,645

longer, you'll have a healthier lifespan,

you'll have less chance of developing

01:11:04,915 --> 01:11:09,635

dementia and Alzheimer's and Parkinson's,

you'll have less cardiovascular disease.

01:11:09,684 --> 01:11:12,900

Then, uh, Start taking mushrooms

regularly and don't stop.

01:11:14,890 --> 01:11:15,370

I love it.

01:11:15,430 --> 01:11:18,210

Yeah, I'm 100 percent on board.

01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:21,650

Um, I've been, I've been a huge

proponent of functional mushrooms,

01:11:21,650 --> 01:11:23,720

medicinal mushrooms for a long time.

01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:26,400

And so you're just, you're

completely mirroring that.

01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:28,500

And I would hammer that home as well.

01:11:28,700 --> 01:11:32,135

Um, Take your mushrooms

and don't, and don't stop.

01:11:32,965 --> 01:11:33,365

Yeah.

01:11:33,434 --> 01:11:36,945

Um, well, Hey, Lily, thank you

so much for coming on today.

01:11:36,955 --> 01:11:39,045

It's been an absolute pleasure.

01:11:39,065 --> 01:11:43,015

Um, I wouldn't be surprised if I see

you back on here and I would love

01:11:43,035 --> 01:11:44,195

to keep in touch with you as well.

01:11:44,805 --> 01:11:45,745

Thanks very much, Evan.

01:11:45,745 --> 01:11:47,115

I've, I've really enjoyed it.

01:11:47,115 --> 01:11:49,175

I hope your listeners, you

know, get a lot out of it.

01:11:49,175 --> 01:11:53,325

There's, there's a lot of, a lot of gems

and pearls in what we talked about today.

01:11:53,405 --> 01:11:54,525

So I hope off.

01:11:55,180 --> 01:11:57,790

You and I together have helped,

you know, propel people, you

01:11:57,790 --> 01:11:59,250

know, into their mushroom journey.

01:11:59,330 --> 01:12:01,150

So yeah, thank you very much.