In episode two of How to Take the Lead, we discuss why we have decided to ditch the power suits and how that has impacted our approach to leadership. Authenticity is something we talk about a lot and this topic really highlights the importance of being able to show up as your true self as a leader.

In this episode we cover a lot of ground, including:

• 02:45 – does appearance matter?
• 06:10 – how to judge what's appropriate
• 15:45 - tackling discrimination and your role as a leader

Our takeaways from this episode are focused on working out what makes you feel most confident in the workplace and finding opportunities to have conversations about how you can support others to show up as the best versions of themselves. We want you to feel comfortable and confident to be yourself.

We mentioned the Broken Ladders report from The Fawcett Society and The Runnymede Trust. You can view it here Broken Ladders report.

We will be sharing some of our own leadership lessons in the next episode of How to Take the Lead so tune in to hear more. Until then, get out there and take the lead.

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You can find out more about Lee Griffith via www.sundayskies.com and about Carrie-Ann Wade at www.cats-pajamas.co.uk

Mentioned in this episode:

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Don't wear hot pants to a board meeting.

What!

You're listening to How To Take The Lead with Lee

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and Carrie-Ann Wade.

Two corporate colleagues turned business

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leadership.

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Hello, and welcome to episode two of how to take the lead.

There's a second episode!

I know, already. This is the whole point

of the podcast though, to do more than one epsiode so wel

will have to get used to this.

So today's episode, we are chatting about

something that's actually quite close to both of our hearts.

Sorry, that does sound really cheesy doesn't it? I've been

watching too much American TV. But it's a topic that's come up

in practically every series that we did when we were doing our IG

live shows and and it's notion of being yourself at work, so

not feeling like you have to change who you are to fit in.

Anyone that's heard me talk about my journey before will

have heard me say about my perceptions when I went into

management. And that pressure to look a certain way to fit in.

So, for me it started with the clothes, then it became my

personality that I was trying to change and then suddenly I

didn't recognise who I was. My values, were in lost property

somewhere and it all just started to feel a bit dirty. And

it was only really at the point that I got saturated and felt

fed up that I thought no I just need to be myself and when I

started to be more of myself, leaving my hair to be curly,

ditching the powersuit, wearing flat shoes, oh my goodness, if I

felt like it. It was only then that I really started to gain

confidence in my role. And I think people took me more

seriously but that may well have just been my projection because

I got more comfortable because it's a hard once test in

hindsight. So it's been something that I've really been

interested in ever since. And I think now with my new hat on in

the business, it's something that I work with leaders on

around building their personal brands and when that, the look

and feel part of the brand discussion comes up, it's led to

some really interesting discussions. You know what the

expectations are that are out there. Are there going to be

taken seriously you know, what's the business etiquette is if

it's written down in some bible somewhere. And it's men and

women it's not just you know, I've had conversations with.

I've always been really forthright in my view that

you're more likely to build connection with yourself when

you yourself when you feel comfortable. People absolutely

can see through fakes. So you have to bring your personnel to

work to work. You know, that's what I've learned over time.

But, you know, I know we've talked about this before, but I

would love to know where you you're at now I suppose

Yeah. So so how do you judge what's appropriate,

Yeah, absolutely, I think we talked

Carrie-Ann.

about being authentic and I think that's a word that some

people love and some people might what does that even mean?

But I do think it's genuinely what we talked about around

being yourself in the workplace, being able to represent who you

are in your role as a leader because I don't believe that all

of a sudden you're a different person because you've got to

work at eight in the morning and you're a leader now, like you're

one person, there's lots of facets to you, but you are who

you are. And I think it's interesting what you said around

it started with the clothes and the appearance stuff. And then

it kind of, it progressed from there in terms of your journey

around feeling comfortable with yourself or not in that space,

and I think absolutely agree with the bit about appearance

and there are these expectations that within the first seven

seconds people make a judgement about you. That's how long

you've got to make a first impression. So a lot of that is

bound to be based on appearance, isn't it and what you like but I

think that kind of yeah, that comes with some downsides

doesn't it, around these expectations of how you have to

look and how you have to dress in the workplace to be a senior

person or a leader in an organisation. But then

absolutely agree it goes beyond that. We talked about ditching

the power suit and always think about the big shoulder pads but

with the big shoulder pads I think sometimes particularly in

my experience with women, comes the pointy elbows as well to go

with the big shoulder pads and that kind of whole vibe that

they used to be around, you know, maybe that more alpha

female type leadership role model and that's, you know, I

didn't see people who had personalities like mine or

traits like mine in leadership roles for a very long time in my

corporate career, actually because I just saw women who

came across more like men, and acted more like men and spoke

more like men. I feel like saying I don't feel like I felt

they were women who were assertive leaders. I felt like

they were borderline aggressive. And I felt like that's how I'd

have to be then if I wanted to be a leader. And it wasn't until

I saw slightly different leadership styles in that space,

but I felt more comfortable and more competent to think that

it's okay to be myself. And absolutely your point about the

way people see through fakes but if you'd be like going for a job

interview and acting like you're a totally different person,

you'll soon get found out if you get recruited on the basis of

that interview and then you go into the job, and you're totally

different. So I genuinely do think you have to be yourself.

But I do think that's easier said than done. In quite a few circumstances.

you know, what, how do you know? There's probably some really

obvious things don't wear hot pants to a board meeting.

What?

Note for the summer there.

Not to self, no sequined hot pants for the next

board meeting.

If you've got a really kinky side, leave it in

the bedroom, you know appropriateness, I suppose it's

that understanding what's that level of appropriateness. And,

you know, if you work somewhere where the rules are really

rigid, and you feel you can't be yourself, how do you understand

if the red lines that are there are real red lines or actually

it's a it's an organisation and a culture that's got it's head

stuck up its backside and actually does need to shake up

in a change? It's a hard one to judge.

And some of that is about how confidenty ou

feel about testing those waters. I guess which again is another

easier said than done. But you know, if you work in an

organisation where everybody turns up wearing, you know

wearing grey suits and white shirts, regardless of what

gender you are like, what happens if you decide that

you're going to wear a bright colour? What happens if you

decide you're wearing a red, red you know, red trousers to work

and judging that reaction a bit. And I think sometimes we can be

a bit nervous to challenge that status quo, so we don't do it

and we start to conform because we're worried about a reaction

without necessarily understanding what that reaction

might be and more often than not, sometimes there isn't one.

Or people go oh, wow, really like, you know, what you're

wearing today. It's really bright and colourful or

whatever. And so sometimes think we go in with our own worries

that we're going to create this big stir without actually

necessarily, like knowing that that's the case. But then

there's also a bit of me that if it then is questioned in the

workplace, you need to feel confident, you can ask for

clarity about what that issue is. And I think that's when

you'll find that maybe it is a bit of a non issue because once

people are questioned about so you know what doesn't matter if

I'm wearing bright colours today and not black, grey and navy.

I'm not quite clear. Can you explain to me what the issue is?

That you'll find people can't really explain that other than

that they find it a little bit uncomfortable because it's

different to what they used to. And then it it almost kind of

takes the takes the heat out of that issue because it really

isn't one when you come to have a conversation about it.

Yeah. And it's weird because particularly, if

you work in an organisation that perhaps doesn't have a uniform,

or in a department within an organisation where you don't

have to wear a uniform, there isn't necessarily policies,

procedures that that dictate not like when you're at a school and

they say, oh, you've got to wear, we had a riot of school

because someone this is actually really true. So a kid shaved

their head, that left a little fringe, this is peak 90s by the

way, and they were hauled in front of the assembly to be made

an example of because they had the wrong haircut that the

breached school rules. And then the whole school rioted and the

head teacher got sacked and you know, it's all over the north

Wales news at the time. But it's like, you don't necessarily get

that in a workplace. And I suppose yes, you could see what

other people are wearing or doing, but it can be hard to

make that judgement. I know I used to be just to get my hair

cut made me self conscious. Are they going to comment on my hair

today or you've had a haircut and I didn't like attention? So

it can be really simple things versus you know, do I wear heels

or flats?

It's really weird how some very simple

things like how many times have you been in a situation where

you or someone else has maybe dressed slightly more work than

they normally would and get the comment have you been for an

interview? Yeah, that's like a standard like line isn't it,

like just because back then you might have decided that you

wanted to feel a bit smarter because you could do the

presentation or whatever. So I think there's something about

appropriateness of the scenario. And again, that's about

expectations. If you went into an interview scenario, there

wouldn't be an expectation that you've made maybe more of an

effort than you would normally make to look smart, whether

that's right or wrong. And again, probably not a hot pant

scenario, depends on what job it is that you're going for an

interview for. But I feel like you can make an effort and still

be you and I have to be honest, I don't own a suit and I've

never worn a suit to an interview. But then there'll be

lots of people that do because that's what's expected. But

actually, if I put a suit on, I would feel really uncomfortable

and so much less likely myself that that would almost become an

issue for me that would probably affect my confidence in that

interview because I'd be more aware of what I was wearing

because I put a suit on.

Well do you know the stress of just buying a

suit, I mean, the meltdowns I've had in the Next changing room

back in the day. You're right, I felt better when I became more

senior and I went for interviews and I wore a dress with a nice

little jacket or something, but not a suit but a nice jacket. I

felt smart but I felt I was representing myself.

I also think I'm just going say this but I

think the pandemic has changed things quite a lot because

people spent so much time out of the office environment, out of

like physical environments. So we're all on the screens with

our elasticated waist, maybe I wear leggings on the bottom but

you know when we go in a bit more for comfort because many of

us have been working from home. more. Actually, when I've gone

back into my office environment and I'm a leader in my

organisation, I actually haven't thought twice about wearing

trainers to the office in a way that before I'd wear them to

drive in and then put my heels on. And I'm like, well, my

clothes are still smart enough for the workplace. And what does

it matter that I've got trainers in the bottom, but it's sort of

weird that that's a conscious thing to be thinking about

because it feels so different. But I also think it's proved

that like just because I've not got heels on doesn't mean I'm

not going to be good at my job today.

Although this is me getting on my soapbox, but if

you watch The Apprentice like they are still starting to, I

mean they are perpetuating aren't they?

Powersuits, sky high heels if you're a woman and

you're running around. Very rarely see the women in that

wearing trousers, it's always dresses. The guys in suits and

ties. It's almost like oh he's gone casusal today because he

has taken his tie off. Like yeah, that actually perpetuates

the whole powersuit business leader image I'm not keen on.

And they're all small business owners asking for

money investing in their small business so actually their

attire couldn't be any more inappropriate from for what it

is that they do and I just, it would be so refreshing to see

these things represented or be more representative on in the

media and on TV and shows like that because I do just think

people carry on with the issue. I mean, House of Commons, the

fact that who what was it? Jeremy Hunt or someone, was on

a zoom call during pandemic and didn't have a tie on for

goodness sake. And you've got rees-Mogg or hatever his name

is, getting the etiquette police saying oh he should be wearing a

tie and I'm like oh my goodness we've got bigger things to worry

about in the world.He needs

He needs to be wearing his pyjamas more

considering how many times he has a little power nap

It's that notion that you know you've got to

lead, if you look at Jacinda Ardern, you know she wears nice

dresses. I think she gets that balance really well and she's

setting a good role model type vibe for people out there and

what you can dress like as leader don't have to be in a

black or blue navy suit all the time. Anyway, I will step off my

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I suppose the one thing that I'm really mindful of is that we're

sat here as two white, middle class women. And we're having

this conversation through that lens. And we know obviously

there's discrimination that women face in the workplace

there was all that stuff that hit the news a few years ago

about women being forced to wear short skirts and heels into an

office environment for examples. We know that kind of stuff

happens. But there was a report out earlier this month, called

Broken Ladders, we'll leave the link to it in the show notes,

which said that 61% of women of colour reported that they were

having to change to fit in and this compared to something like

44% of white women. And women were saying that they had to

change their language, what they spoke about, their hair, what

they ate, sometimes their name, just fit in. So yeah, it's

really easy for us to sit here and say, you know, lean into

your personality. Don't be scared and all of that stuff.

But obviously there is a huge, huge problem out there, that

does stem from racial and sexual discrimination. And it got me

thinking that obviously as leaders, there's a role that you

have to not only think of yourself, but to think of the

role that you have of making change happen in your

organisations. So that they don't feel discriminated

against. So there's this for me that thing around, you know,

what are you as a leader doing to make sure that your

organisation is being inclusive and that you're tackling

discrimination. And that you will do real actions and you're

monitoring the right stuff and you're empowering people all of

that and I'm sure we'll get into that as a separate topic at some

point because it's really important I don't want to kind

of wash over it, but I do think the other the other element of

it is that as a leader, if you start showing up as yourself,

think of how empowering and the message that can set for your

teams who perhaps feel that they can't fit in. So I think

actually it isn't just about do I wear heels or not. It can send

a really powerful message.

Yeah, absolutely. I think you're

absolutely right. You need to consider what your role is as a

leader as a role model within your team within your

Oh, she went right in on the right in on the

organisation and beyond. I think it's so easy for leaders and

organisations to say, you know, we really value diversity, we

really value like your unique perspective and what you bring

to the workplace. So you know, we want you to bring the best

version of you, but actually, how do you go on to kind of show

that, for that not just to be words that you say? So there's

something about I think it's your role as a leader to be

comfortable, you know, not conforming to all of those

stereotypes, to be okay with yourself demonstrating that

you're, your version of you and that you're not being a bit

fake. So I think that you also have to be able to have, I guess

some of those conversations and invite those conversations to

happen as a leader, but you need to understand where some of this

is, is acting out in your organisation and ask people what

it is that we could be doing to make people feel more

comfortable with that space, because I don't think we can

assume to know. You talked about it just now, we are coming at

this as two white women so we can't assume to know what

changes might need to happen to make other people who are

different to us feel able to be their authentic selves in the

workplace. I think if there is something about that kind of

openness and transparency of conversation, and the ability to

do some active listening and take some action in that space,

definitely. I mean I also think sometimes women are sometimesour

worst enemies. I've been in situations before, one example

I've been on a course where there were quite a lot of very

young women who were starting out their leadership journeys

and they had someone there giving advice and one of the

questions from one of the delegates was, you know, what

advice could you give me about going for interviews for more

senior roles in my profession, and the very first bit of advice

that this woman gave, who was there as the keynote speaker was

"Well, I would suggest that maybe you might straighten your

hair before you have your interview."

personal?

Right in on appearance, like my chin hit the

table, and I'm like, are you actually kidding me? And I'm

like, that's a, that's not constructive and helpful b, what

difference really should make into somebody's ability to be

able to do a job. And actually what this person is looking for

is some really practical helpful advice about how to prep for

interviews for the more senior roles, not to be told that you

don't fit because your hair's curly. Really?

Did anyone challenge that?

I tried to challenge it and got shut down

quite quickly in the conversation got moved on. And,

and what was weird was that everybody afterwards had a

conversation about how inappropriate it was, but waited

until the speaker was gone, kind of wasn't in the room to have

that conversation. But again, I think there was something there

about the dynamic, it was quite young individuals who are at

early stages in their leadership journeys with somebody who was

quite a lot older and more experienced. So maybe there was

an acceptance that we don't challenge this view and

actually, they know best so I feel like there's still so much

work to do in this area to be honest with you now we have

started talking about it.

And it's an interesting thing, you know,

absolutely. That is not inappropriate, that's not

appropriate guidance to be given someone but that doesn't - I'm

almost going to go back on myself a little bit, but that

doesn't preclude that you shouldn't give advice to people

if you think there are things to, I know that certainly in my

career, I've had to speak to people just to suggest that

they, you know, smartened up for interview or whatever and it

isn't because you know, they weren't wearing a suit but it

was because they were wearing a little vest top and looked like

they were gonna sit out in a garden rather than, and you just

knew that they weren't represented, people weren't

going to look beyond their looks. And so you're like, you

know, put cardigan on or do something that just elevates you

a little bit but still feels comfortable for you.

Yeah, and I think it's back to that point,

about appropriateness for the scenario so like judge the

environment you're going to be in and think about what works

but how you can put your take on it and represent your

personality. I've had to have those same conversations before

where I've worked with somebody who, you know, would wear super

high heels and fairly short skirts to work and actually, in

our office environment, like didn't really make a difference,

but actually, they were going to be going to do a visit to a male

forensic mental health ward and it's like you actually need to

think about, you know, how you're going to represent

yourself in that environment, not only for you, but for the

people that you're going to be around all day. And actually,

that probably isn't necessarily going to be the most appropriate

attire to wear and actually, there might be a uniform policy

that staff adhere to because it's in a clinical, very

different environment. But I think you have to be able to

have those conversations without feeling like it's something

awkward

Yeah, yeah, but coming from the right space, not

just because you personally don't like something or you

think or you're trying to perpetuate the issues that you

see because you think that's the culture of the organisation or

whatever. I do think there is, I worked with it a Chief Exec

once and we had conversation about does he wear a tie or not.

And you think what a trivial of all the stuff you could talk

about, but that was a big thing for them. Because they were so

used to being like I'm a man who has to wear a suit and tie

because that's what's expected of me in a corporate

environment. Do you ever wear a suit and tie when you're at home

or go out places and he's like, no, I don't. Just wear what you

feel comfortable, roll your sleeves up and take your tie off

and actually the difference in his demeanour when he started

doing that he became more personable because he felt more

comfortable in his skin.

And it is funny, isn't it how what you

wear can be. It feels like it's very trivial but can almost take

up quite a lot of time and energy in terms of focus. So

again another example of very senior director who had their

first experience oncall in a health setting, and I was the

comms person oncall. There'd been a fire at a local hospital

that needed to be evacuated. Actually, the senior director

role was actually to be being more strategic thinking about

what's going to be happening in the aftermath, there was

somebody onsite managing the immediate issue. But they phoned

for two bits of advice. The first bit was should they go to

the hospital site? And my advice at the time was not if you don't

need to because it's under control. And actually you need

to be thinking about what happens tomorrow, in a week's

time, you know, two weeks time so I don't know what value

you're going to be adding by going. The second question haing

ignored the fact that I didn't think they should go, was if I

go should I wear a suit? That is honest to God, two o'clock in

the morning conversation with somebody. And it's, again, I

don't think you need to be going to site if you're going to

choose to go, it doesn't really matter what you wear and

probably not because they're evacuating patients from

hospitals. So do you need to be wearing a suit for that and

their view was because it would show that I've got authority

it's like but have you because it's not your role to either

anyway, sorry, I digress into a whole other conversation

It' true that you know, you look at again, you go

back to the politicians, they do their big walk abouts talk and

go and visit people in different places. Sometimes yes, a suit

does work when they're just doing the meet and greets

walking down the street type piece, they look really

uncomfortable and out of place. I mean, that could just be

because their politicians are really not connected to the

world. But they do and sometimes they look really awkward. So I

do think that there is something about leaning into what you feel

comfortable with. Assessing the environment and situation that

you're in. So our how to moment if you've listened to this

epsiode, you're feeling inspired, but perhaps

questioning what's next, I'm sure we've got some actionable

tips you can take forward. I'm going to hand over to my

esteemed colleague.

Oh blimey, the pressure but my first tip is

definitely work out what you feel particularly in the privacy

but it doesn't actually have to just be about your appearance,

work out what makes you feel most confident in the workplace.

And what helps you to feel like you're going to smash it at

work, thats my number one thing to go away and think about. And

I also think consider whether whether there's an opportunity

to initiate discussions, maybe in your own team or more broadly

in your organisation to ask people for their views about

this. And actually what would help them feel more comfortable

showing up being authentic in the workplace. If you've got an

outdated, uniform policy about what people have to wear, can

you use that as your starting point? To really start having

some conversations about this because it sounds trivial, but

actually, fundamentally, what we're saying is sometimes it's

the sort of stuff that can stop people feeling like they can

show up and be their best in the workplace, and that's absolutely

not what we're wanting to convey.

And I think that has a ripple effect on the whole

culture of an organisation so it can seem really minor, but

actually is probably one of the biggest signifiers of how staff

are feeling. I really like that. I think my only addition would

be to recognise the role you play as a role model. And so

yes, you may well feel really comfortable wearing a suit and

tie, but just think about actually the what that might

bring up for people and what that might be stopping other

people from doing. So there is a reflection piece aswell.

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