She, He, They, Ze; what’s the purpose of pronouns? Are they just grammatical structures, or something more? And is gender only tied to trans identities, or is it a part of us all?  

Feeling safe and grounded in your gender identity is not a luxury; it’s essential to mental and emotional well-being. In this episode, we explore what well-being can look like for trans and gender-diverse students; the challenges that may intersect yet differ from the rest of the 2SLGBTQIA+ community, the pressure of being out, and the quiet resilience of those who aren’t. A sense of comfort in one’s identity is an essential part of wellness and safety, yet trans students often face stigma and discrimination that can deeply impact their mental and emotional health. 

This conversation works as a guide for trans students to be grounded in their wellness despite these challenges, while also offering cisgender listeners insight into how they can be better allies. Together, we reflect on the evolving nature of gender and sexuality, and why building a stable, healthy, and accepting connection with one’s identity is the true guide to wellness. 

We explore these topics as our host Susu B. sits with our guest, Brian Ginther (they/them) who is a non-binary queer interdisciplinary multi-media artist, designer, and writer, and a work-study student at York University’s Faculty of Environmental & Urban Change. Brian shares their perspective on identity, community, and self-acceptance and provides us with valuable tips and resources that truly invite trans folks on campus to exist loudly.  

Resources:

• Trans, Bisexual, Lesbian, Gay, Asexual at York: a student-run service for the queer and trans community at York University. we host a drop-in space, vibrant discord community, events and more! https://tbl.gay/ 

• SexGen York 

SexGen York is the University-wide committee responsible for advising and advocating around issues and concerns of sexual and gender diversity. 

• The Centre 

The Centre for Sexual Violence Response, Support & Education honours the rich history that is PRIDE and highlights the need for dedicated services and supports to 2SLGBTQIA+ community members. 

• Student Counselling, Health & Well-being 

Access resources and support for the 2SLGBTQIA+ community at York University; such as student name change form, gender neutral washroom map, tips & guides, clubs & networks, and more.  

• SCHW offers support groups for York’s 2SLGBTQIA+ student community, facilitated by counsellors who identify as part of the community. We create a safe space where stories can be shared, support given and self-care nurtured. 

https://students.yorku.ca/counselling/groups 

• Centre for Women and Trans People: a non-profit that provides recreational, cultural, political, and artistic programs for York students and those in the GTA.  

• Trans Lifeline: Canada (877)-330-6366 
• YFS Gender Affirming Health Care Plan: https://www.yfs.ca/healthplan    
•  
• Sherbourne Health Trans Care Program - https://sherbourne.on.ca/primary-and-family-health-care/2slgbtq-health/trans-health-care/  
• CMHA Gender Affirming Clinic: https://cmha-yr.on.ca/get-support/gender-affirming-health-clinic-16/  

Career Resources: Career Resources  

• Canada’s Best Diversity Employers 2024: Canada's Best Diversity Employers recognizes employers across Canada that have exceptional workplace diversity and inclusiveness programs. This competition recognizes successful diversity initiatives in a variety of areas, including programs for LGBT employees.  
• Canada's LGBT+ Chamber of Commerce: CGLCC supports LGBT+ businesses, entrepreneurs, students and allies, and helps Canada’s corporate world connect with the LGBT+ business community. It is a leader in supplier diversity and the certifying body in Canada for LGBT+ businesses.  
• Ontario LGBTQ2+ Chamber of Commerce: OGLCC is a federally chartered, non-profit organization with the goal to create an environment in which LGBTQ businesses and professionals can thrive through the sharing of knowledge and resources.  
• Pride at Work: Pride at Work Canada empowers employers to build workplaces that celebrate all employees regardless of gender expression, gender identity, and sexual orientation. They help create safer, more inclusive workspaces that realize the full potential of all employees and bring down barriers to employment.  
• Emerge LGBTQ Mentorship Program: Emerge LGBTQ Mentorship program is designed specifically for LGBTQ Convention Refugees and Permanent Residents residing in Canada for less than 5 years.  
• Start Proud: Start Proud facilitates the professional development of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer (LGBTQ+) students as they transition from school to career in order to build a national network within the LGBTQ+ community.  
• exeQutive: exeQutive is a forum for Toronto/GTA-based lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans and queer (LGBTQ) leaders — current and aspiring professionals, executives and entrepreneurs.   exeQutive connects you to the pink network – a diverse group of exceptional leaders in the LGBTQ community - and supports you with your professional growth & personal journey  
• JobBoard.lgbt: JobBoard.lgbt is a specialized online employment network that highlights employers who are dedicated to providing unique, interesting, and fulfilling experiences to our growing network of LGBT job seekers.  
• EngiQueers Canada: EngiQueers Canada is a nationwide non-profit organization that represents over 30 similar member groups at engineering schools across the country. 

Susu B.: Hey YU. Welcome to your future favorite podcast, if it's not already well-being and you with your host, Susu B. Introductions, like the one you're listening to right now, are all about identity. I already introduced myself as the host of this podcast and as someone named Susu B. But we all know that identity goes beyond introductions. It's something that stays with you. It shapes how you feel and move throughout the world. And it's also shaped by your experiences, your environment and the people around you. For students, identity shows up in so many parts of their life. The way we speak, what we wear, who we feel safe around, what spaces we avoid or gravitate toward. When that identity is misunderstood or dismissed, even subtly, it can impact our mental and emotional well-being in ways we don't always talk about. Listen, it’s all connected to our well-being. Feeling seen, respected and safe in your identity isn't just a nice to have, it’s foundational to how we show up in class, build relationships and take care of ourselves. As we approach Trans Awareness Week this November, we wanted to take time to talk about gender identity not just as a label, but as a lived experience that evolves, grows and sometimes challenges us. In this episode we'll explore what well-being can look like for trans and gender diverse students that challenges the support systems, the pressure of being out and the quiet resilience of those who aren't. Whether you identify as trans, cisgender, questioning or somewhere in between, this conversation is for you. In this episode, I had the distinct pleasure of speaking with Brian Ginther. Brian goes by the pronouns they/them and is a non-binary queer interdisciplinary multimedia artist, designer and writer who also is a work study student at the Faculty of Environmental and Urban Change at York University. They explore a multitude of topics including but not limited to sex, sexuality, gender, gender roles, religion, relationship to God, Catholicism, tattoos, body and body art. All while bringing queerness, curiosity and playfulness into all the projects they do. I really hope you can join us on this journey. A few mindful minutes can really make a difference. So, let’s, dive into our conversation with Brian.

Susu B.: Brian, how are you doing today?

Brian: I'm doing well. How about yourself?

Susu B.: I'm feeling excited, and I feel great. I feel like you bring in a lot of experience. I read your bio earlier and not only do you bring this like your academic experience about queerness and, trans folks, but you also have your own personal experiences as well. So, I can't wait to just dive into the questions. So, with that said, everyone, students included of course, has a relationship with their gender or sexual identities. That's something that we're sure about. so cisgenders, transgenders, homosexuals, heterosexuals, all stand somewhere on the spectrum of gender and sexuality. How could navigating wellness for trans students differ from those who are outside of this community?

Brian: Yeah, that's a great question. I think something unique about transness is like we are not unique necessarily, but a lot of groups of people experience this type of vulnerability when you have legislation actively working against you. So trans legislation of like banning students from using the bathroom that associates with their gender or barring when they can do hormones or things like that. That type of anti-trans legislation leads a lot of people especially vulnerable and kind of at the hands of the policymakers. Your identity becomes so political that you can't remove yourself from that and I think that just deeply impacts your kind of overall well-being but also your mental health, that your identity gets reduced to that and then even within families you're going home, and not all families are going to be welcoming and supportive. So, when you're dealing with that, it’s really isolating. Um, I think the trans experience can be so isolating. Like we're lucky to be in Toronto, right. At York University. It's a huge campus with lots of people to connect with. But trans experience isn't exclusive to wildly populated areas. So small towns, like you're completely isolated within yourself. You know, you might not know who's trans and who's going to be out. And so that type of isolation really creeps up on you and you have no one to turn to. So that I would say like the wellness impact is people don't know the resources they have or the people to turn to. And that isolation leads to poor mental health, suicidal ideation, self-harm, things like that. Where it's just, you're so focused on just trying to get by every day that you don't know how to navigate like the good stuff.

Susu B.: I'm really happy you mention that because I remember even when we met it was in the trans awareness or allyship workshop. And it really opened my eyes on this idea of making something political, because for me I personally identify as a member of the 2SLGBTQI+ but I do not necessarily identify as trans. So, for me I was trying to understand this difference because it really is different because maybe some members of the 2SLGBT, um, feel more included today in the policy piece at least, but definitely there’s lot of work that still needs to be done for including trans folks.

Brian: Absolutely.

Susu B.: So, I'm glad that you're mentioning this distinction and, I'm also happy that you were mentioning stuff about, family and the environment. Really, when you're in a highly populated place or versus, a remote place, really, it would be different. So, I was wondering, since we're all influenced by our environment one way or another and those who are around us, how does an environment shape your ability to feel safe, seen and supported, within your gender identity?

Brian: Yeah, I think there's a really large intersection, um, here to talk about, like, transness exists as identity around gender. But so many kind of community influences impact safety. Like someone's family being religious or the school they're going to be religious. I know so many queer folks and trans folks who went to, like, Catholic school, you know, and that's gonna really shape how you identify and how much you, like, hide yourself. Um, because you might be going to a religious place that's constantly affirming what you're doing is wrong or what you are is wrong. And that's not true for all religions or even all people practicing certain religions.

Susu B.: Not even in all school. I went to a Catholic school, and I was lucky enough to have Catholic school experience that was different from what I heard. A lot of people told me Catholic schools are not as welcoming, but mine was actually. They had, like, posters, and many of the professors or the teachers at the time, were speaking about it nicely. But definitely it differs.

Brian: Absolutely. And I had a similar experience that I grew up in a Christian family, and I'm very lucky that I have a family who supports me. But I know a lot of Christian folks who don't have that experience. Same with other religions. Right, so culture also comes into play because even beside religion, not all cultures are accepting. and so that intersection of, like, what it is to be trans in different contexts really impacts your safety.

Susu B.: More of, like, standardization. That's not only in this one space, just because they happen to be kind.

Brian: Absolutely.

Susu B.: It should be more like a general, normal thing.

Brian: Yeah. In the more vulnerable of a person, you are, like, if you are a person of color and you're also queer, intersectionality. Intersectionality. You know, a woman, disabled. Like, all these intersections kind of, they start to stack up. And even within those communities, like the intersected communities, trans people are still facing discrimination. Right.

Susu B.: Are there any specific things that help you, from your experience, feel seen and support it even like the simple things. I know, like personally, I saw an advertisement the other day that was talking about something as simple as just having like the pride flag, like as a pin or something could just make people feel safe. Is there something like an experience like this that could, you know, you could talk to like that you have felt simple things that could just make you feel supported?

Brian: Yeah. Um, I actually have a great example of. I was interviewing for my job at York, and I had this moment where I was asked to see like some of my social media because it’s communications job.

Susu B.: Yeah.

Brian: I had this moment of panic because I was like, okay, I showed up to this job going by my dad’s name. Um, because I haven't legally changed my name. So, all my stuff is registered under my old name. Right. I'm like, but my social media is in my new name, Brian.

Susu B.: Got it.

Brian: So I send it into chat, and I explain. I'm like, oh, just so you know, it's a different name. Like I don't have to go buy it here because I was really nervous. and my now current boss stops the interview and says, oh, okay, you're right. Let's reintroduce ourselves. I'm going to introduce myself with my name and my pronouns. And I want you to introduce yourself with your preferred name and your pronouns. And it was something that I was like, I was so taken aback because it was not an experience I had. and it was the first time that I went, oh, wait, maybe I can be Brian at school, maybe I can be Brian at work. Maybe there's places that I can be myself and truly embrace myself, refer to my pronouns, refer to my preferred name. And that pushed me into so many different directions of like I am Brian at work I then got my name legally changed. I then created the trans allyship workshop that I presented., because I had that opportunity and I felt that safe space. And that just came from the pause of let's reintroduce ourselves, let's say our name, let's say our pronouns. So that kind of like bolder effect, right?

Susu B.: Yeah, it's the butterfly effect, really. and I'm really happy you had that experience because I think we spoke about it in another episode actually. it was with the career, like someone from the career center. Because I was wondering, I was wondering about stuff about resume building. For example, if I put on my resume that I'm in this club for supporting 2SLGBTQIA+ I'm telling something about myself. This is my identity. Even if I'm not to, 2SLGBTQIA+ myself but I'm just telling you I'm an ally and I think one of the things that we spoke about is that I don't want, I wouldn't want to work for someone. Obviously, it's tough. Still, you need a job. It is more of like this or that you're trying to choose. It's like an ultimatum kind of but it is something that you put in mind that you don't even want to work for someone that does not respect you this way, you don't want to work for someone that you need to remove what you believe in from your resume or from your website, for them to accept you.

Susu B.: Right

Susu B.: Because trust me, I think it will eventually it will not be good for your well-being if you're working with someone directly that just does not support you this way. and speaking of support, and I even remember you were mentioning safety at some point as well. there are some misconstrued beliefs about the trans community that can be harmful such as the idea that their presence poses a risk to women's rights and safety. Would you be willing to share your thoughts on these perspectives and how they may affect the well-being of trans individual?

Brian: Yeah, absolutely. I want to say that like my experiences are limited. Um, like I am a queer trans person but I'm also white and I come from like a family that was really accepting to me. So, like my safety experiences are going to be limited and I don't want to speak for other communities but from what I understand, and I see even in my own day to day life there's this kind of idea that like things that are new are threatening and transness has this era of being new. Right, it's not new. It's been around forever. Like gender queerness and gender playfulness has always existed throughout history. But now this political idea of trans and its needs like an attack point, it needs an against. Well trans women are just men going into bathrooms to attack women. Like this is a really big belief or they're grooming children. You know these are these pillars of like how do we take down a community that we're scared of because they're changing what we're used to, they're changing CIS normative ideals and the same sort of like thinking like came for when like gay marriage was being legalized, right? Of like well what do we do if we let two men or two women get married? Like that changes, that undermines the idea of marriage. So, it's kind of the same thing with like, what do we use to attack people who are different than us? Right and so this idea that it's coming for women's rights, that trans men are just confused women or that trans women are men pretending, to harm women, it's just a way to take down those communities.

You know, it's so much work to be trans.

Susu B.: Yeah.

Brian: It's so much work to present yourself like both emotionally and physically so if you're doing it socially or medically, it's just, it's a lot of work. and it has never made sense to me this idea that people are outwardly going to attack people. It's like, it's enough work to just live your day to day as someone so clearly different. like, what if you're going to attack people? You can just attack people, you know, so it's like nothing is.

Susu B.: Why go through the hustle pretending to be something if you're at this stage of like aggression that I don't think you will be in a state of mind that, oh, let me just plot it out by just pretending to be trans to go and attack these people, in the washrooms or.

Brian: Right. And it's not like these spaces are necessarily safe in the first place.

Susu B.: Right. You know, like it's just the door. Door in and attack someone. Yeah, yeah.

Brian: So, it doesn't make sense, this whole idea of, completely changing your gender orientation, socially transitioning just to use a washroom to attack someone. It's like anyone can walk into a washroom and attack someone.

Susu B.: Right.

Brian: I don't say that as like fear mongering, but just like, it doesn't make sense. You know, the logic is valuable.

Susu B.: No, that absolutely makes sense. And another idea that for me also like came to my mind. I was doing, one of the DEDI modules at York. They're amazing, honestly. Yeah, agree. So, they were talking about the idea of sports, for example, and that's a whole other thing. And I was so happy that I took this model because I personally, I was struggling also understand as a woman myself, I was trying to understand I'm not a sports person, but I'm in Jersey right now for the people watching. But I'm just pretending to be, but it just, it really helped me to understand this perspective. It was really like, eye opening for me because they were talking about how, for example, there's this idea that some trans men might try to just compete in the women's sports just to gain more experience or gain more achievements. And then they worded it this way and they said, why does sports have to be by gender anyway? That's another question.

Brian: Absolutely.

Susu B.: Because sports are meant to be about achieving and about your ability to engage in something. So, it really should be based on how much you can do sports, not really about o a man or a woman can or cannot, do this, compete within the man or a woman. It should be based on your effectiveness in general as a whole. so that was one of the things that really ‘just uh, things that are normalized, as we said, like this standardization. Things that are just normalized, that are easier per se, just when they were created. But I don't think they should be the way they are.

Brian: Absolutely.

Susu B.: so, when it comes to gender and sexual identity, there are typically pros and cons, and we kind of like touch upon some of them. but there are specific pros and cons to coming out. What is the emotional and mental impact of constantly managing how much of yourself to share and probably the risks that come with both being visible or staying silent?

Brian: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think this is probably like something that like every trans person experiences. They wake up in the morning and they're saying, how much of myself am I going to be? And what spaces am I going into when I'm walking into a room? Like, how trans can I be? Am I going to correct someone if they use the wrong name or pronouns for me? am I gonna be like hurt if someone misgenders me a certain ways? And some days are harder, some days are easier. Right. I think for me, because of like how my body looks, I know going out into the world that I'm going to be gendered as a woman, even though I identify as non-binary. and so, I have to mentally prepare myself for that. I'm like, how people are going to perceive me is completely different than how I perceive myself. And the only exception is when I'm going to queer events, like I'm going downtown to a specific queer event, I'm like, maybe this will be a moment where I'm gonna be seen for who I am and for what I am. But on a day to day, going to school, going to work, I know that there's going be this. People are gonna get stuck on my body and my voice and get confused at my name. You know, they're like, oh, will you sound feminine? You look feminine. But your name is Brian. Like, I've had people be like, oh, I love it when women have men's names. I was like, what an odd thing to say. What an odd, like, compliment, I guess. and so, I think, like, from my own experience, the toll it takes is just you're constantly putting on a mask. You're constantly being someone else. and everyone has this, right. Like, everyone has like a work Persona, a school Persona, a home Persona. But there's like a resilience you have to build. You're prepared that this Persona that you're giving. When you're walking into a room, you have to survey how you're going to be perceived and then make yourself kind of invincible to comments you can receive, ways that you can be known, and be uncomfortable. It's kind of an uncomfortable experience constantly. and I see it in other people as well, of, like, how do you navigate that? It's like, you can have a pronoun pin. You can have, in your bio and you're thinking, like, I have so many times, like, I end emails with my pronouns and many times when I get emails back, I'm still gendered. it's like, you didn't read it. and a lot of times, because it's on email, like, I get gendered with he, him pronouns because my name is Brian, a very traditional masculine name. and so. But then I get in person and it's like, this is misalignment, you know? So, people become very like, disassociated from what they're reading and what they're perceiving. Because we live in such a gendered society that everything means everything. It's like, oh, that's gender to me. That's a woman, that's a man.

Susu B.: It's, very definitional, right? Yeah. And I don't think identity could be definitional. I don't think it's not. It's not like, even if we try, it cannot be. It's something that's. Whether or not you like the word spectrum. It is a spectrum in all identities, not just sexual and gender identities.

Brian: Yeah. And I mean, even in a CIS way, like, I think people kind of lose that in the debate of, like, trans versus Cis of like cisgender is also a spectrum. You like how feminine someone is or how masculine someone is. It changes how they present. And we have those micro labels, right? Like, we have like, being a cottage core girl or being a sports guy. You like; those are also just extensions of gender presentation. And how we associate gender.

Susu B.: And it really comes down to understanding that gender is a social construct and it is something that. An expression, we always had. I, know there's a specific culture, where males or male identifying individuals wear skirts. And I'm, not sure. I think it's Scottish. I. What you're talking about. Yeah. And, um, I come from Egypt, which is a very traditional country where there is very, structured, gender norms. And for them, they try to understand that, like, oh, this is their culture. but if a man or a male identifying male guy comes to Egypt wearing a skirt, obviously it will not be a very pleasant experience for them. so it really is all about just what the society expects to see.

Brian: Absolutely.

Susu B.: and I'm also happy that you were mentioning something like, Although it was a weird experience, like the compliment they were mentioning, it is what microaggression means. Because I didn't really know what microaggression meant and I thought it was just like something unforeseen, like. No, can't really see it. But I realized it could be in the form of a compliment, which I also learned in one of the DEDI’s modules. Because it could be someone telling me that I'm well-spoken because they mean well, that, you know, it's a compliment. Or they could say it just because I just told them that I'm an immigrant.

Brian: Right.

Susu B.: So it is, you know, a compliment, but it still, it's not.

Brian: It's bad.

Susu B.: It's not a good thing to say.

Brian: It's also at the cost of someone else.

Susu B.: Right, Exactly. Yeah.

Brian: Like that kind of microaggression. It's like comparing you, like in your case, like comparing you to other immigrants being like, well, you're so well spoken.

Susu B.: Yeah. Like, these are the bad people.

Brian: Yeah.

Brian.: But you're a good. You're one of the good ones.

Brian: You're of the good

Susu B.: Yeah. So, I totally understand, that perspective, obviously from my. Not quite similar at all, but different, experience. So, as I follow up to the previous question, coming out can be empowering, but it can also come with real risk. How can students prepare for or cope with the potential fallout, like strained relationships, social rejection, or even public discrimination?

Brian: it's hard. It's hard. And I think the biggest thing you have to do is you. To build your support system. Um, I came out pretty young as gay when I was like 13 to my family. and then only, I think second year university, I came out as trans. I had known I was trans when I came out the first time, but I was like, this is too much for my family to take. Like, they can understand being gay and all that kind of stuff, but being trans, changing my name, that kind of stuff is. That's gonna go over their head, and so at the time when I was coming, I knew that like, I had to keep my friends close, my chosen family, because I might get rejected. and so, it's kind of once again that you have to build that resilience of like I might face social rejection, familial rejection, strained relationships, either forever or for a while could be permanent, non-permanent. But here are these people that I can turn to and like, I wouldn't recommend to someone coming out if they don't have a support system. Because it's such an intense experience and you can't have this great flood of relief if you're accepted. But you still have to explain yourself even with that acceptance. You have to be like you to put yourself on display, be incredibly vulnerable and say, I'm not what you think I am. I'm this instead. And it's like when it comes to coming with Trans, it's like I need you to change the person you're coming out to. I need you to change how you refer. I need you to change how you look at me and process me and understand me. And that's a very difficult thing to ask someone, especially like blood family.

Susu B.: Right?

Brian: Especially society, you know, it ‘it’s difficult. It's really, really difficult. And so, if you get that rejection, you need that group of people to turn to or one person, you know, or school or event or something like someplace that's safe for you and that, you know, you can be referred to and perceived in the way you want to be.

Susu B.: I think that's a really great advice. The idea that, you know, if you don't have a support system, maybe it is something to delay because it is I consider a celebratory experience. But at the same time, you need to be prepared. even if it's, you know, I don't have a support system right now, so let me. While still being in the closet. Is that a right term even for trans? while still being in the closet, let me go seek some, trans allyship, community. And then when I feel like I do have people to go to, when I need to, let me go and talk to the people that might not be there for me after I come out. I think that would be a really good advice to keep in mind and I guess speaking of advice, what advice would you offer to students who choose not to come out? especially when that choice brings feelings of disc connection or loss. For example, you even mentioned that for a while from like age 13 till you join uni. if I'm doing the timeline correctly, you chose to not come out to your family as friends, although you did know, so you, I don't want to like impose emotions on you, but expect you felt like this, you know, it wasn't as open for you as you could have. So, what advice would you give people that choose not to come out?

Brian: That it's okay. I think there's a lot of pressure to come out. a lot of people who've had accepting families or had accepting communities are like, oh yeah, it's easy, just do it. or oh yeah, if it's a little scary, it's worth it. Like it's not worth it for everyone. Some people need the support of their family and can't be disconnected from them. Some people need the support of their job, and they can't lose even if it, it ‘discriminatory, you know, it's hard and it ‘it, can be really lonely. So, I still recommend that same thing of find your people, find the people who support you and like there's so many resources in the world. Especially like once again I thinking about Toronto and York University. Like York University has clubs, it has events. Look at Toronto, there's so many places. Book clubs, bars, theater, groups like queerness and transness has become, it's not underground anymore. You know, we know that it exists, we know that it's here. So, find a way, even find online communities, right? Those people are, can be just as valuable, that you still need to root yourself in something that's true to you find like small ways to express yourself. So, for me, like I cut my hair off, like I have my hair long now, but when I was 13, I was like, I know I'm trans, but I'm m gonna come out as gay. I cut my hair off completely and I was like this is an expression of my gender. My family might think of it as an expression of my sexuality, but I know to me that this is how I'm expressing myself. This is how I'm being true to myself in some way. I'm dressing more masculine and other people can perceive me as they like, but This is for me

Susu B.: and just for the listeners that don't know gender is versus sexuality is. Can you tell us the difference?

Brian: Yeah, yeah. So, gender is going to be your like male, female, non-binary, identifying as a man, identifying as a woman, identifying in between or nothing at all. Right.

Susu B.: And sexual sexuality or sexual orientation is who you're attracted, who you're attracted to. You know lots of terms like gay or lesbian or bi or pan, stuff like that. Or you're expressing like who you are attracted to.

Susu B.: Got it. Just because I know a lot of people could be confused.

Brian: Absolutely.

Susu B.: And yeah, I guess this, this was a good introduction to the next question. because when it comes to the trans community, understanding and navigating language and terminology becomes an essential part of being an ally. Can you explain the importance of inclusive language and the impact that has on their well-being?

Brian: Absolutely, and it also like something I want to bring up of that gay and queer communities though, they have probably the biggest intersection when it comes to intersectionality that they're still can be very separate and very have a lot of animosity towards each other that a lot of CIS spaces can be exclusionary of trans folks. Um, and so knowing those kind of terms of like what does it mean to be cis? What does it mean to be trans are really imperative. Like being CIS is like identifying with the gender that you were born, or assigned at, at birth. Like a doctor looked at you and went this is your gender. Or your parents looked at you and this is your gender, and you're raised a certain way. Right. Like that's how it goes. And it gets more complicated when we talk about intersex, and then transness, being transgender is that kind of like you identified a certain way as a child, and you are experiencing it different when you are older that you're experiencing something that does not align. You know, was born as a woman, but I don't feel like a woman, I feel like a man, or I feel like nothing. I feel like everything all the time. You know, stuff like that. So that terminology of knowing those kind of basic CIS versus trans and trans versus queer, you know, like being part of the queer community, and like knowing what pronouns are, knowing how, what politicalness they hold. and I think like, especially of like changing your language to suit everyone. You know, when you're talking you say like hey guys, like that's gendering. Which is. We tend to like remove ourselves from that. Be like, oh well guys, it's just a gender-neutral term. But it's not like it's m very clearly referring to like the male gender. Yeah. You know, and so we shift that. That's one of those things that you want to shift to like, hey folks, hey my friends. Hey, you know, whatever works. when we change language to be inclusive, that's, that's showing that, we align ourselves being allies, being with the trans community, being supportive of all different types of gender identities and not assuming we’re taking that assumption out of it when we neutralize it.

Susu B.: Yeah. And I'm glad you were mentioning, I remember, in the workshop you were talking about the pronouns. Maybe you want to talk about that just a little bit because I was surprised that I someone explained it this well, because to be honest with you, I was not understanding them. It was so hard for me to understand what they are. so if you could tell me a little bit about them, that would be absolutely.

Brian: yeah. I think neo pronouns gets into such a dangerous topic as people get really.

Susu B.: Oh, like you creating language. Yeah, yeah.

Brian: And I mean like a couple of years ago we had that kind of joke of like, oh, I identify as an attack helicopter. I don't know if you've ever heard that, but it was this idea of like demeaning gender of like, oh, well, you're not actually identifying within the binary. Yeah. So, when people don't identify in the binary, they search for language to explain that that's why the word non binary exists. Language evolves as we learn and understand things.

We as people love to categorize, love to label. And so, when we create language, we are trying to better our understanding. So, for a lot of people, when they are like, I don't align with male or female, there's this kind of space of like, well, maybe I don't align with they, them, pronouns or she, her pronouns or he him pronouns. Because it's not explaining how I identify, how I see myself in this world. And so, they might turn to things like neo pronouns. And that's kind of that invention of a new pronoun of a way to explain their gender. Of like, my gender does not fit into what society is understanding it to.

Susu B.: And are neo pronouns that exist in another language.

Brian: So neo pronouns, I think, like it can exist in all languages. Like, but when we ‘referring to in English, it's like things outside of she, her, he, him, they, that would be an neo pronoun. But it exists in so many different other contexts because all languages have own different ways of identifying gender. and so neo pronouns only just describes this like, new option, essentially this new option of a way to describe your gender and how you are being referred to.

Susu B.: that makes sense. You give me. It was, for example. I know an example. Just so people know what neo pronouns are. An example of it is

Brian: Like Ze/ zer

Susu B.: Okay, got it.

Brian: So instead of like he, you're using Ze

Susu B.: Got it.

Brian: Right.

Susu B.: Yeah. I think it's all about your perspective and how flexible you are in your mind, uh, to try and respect someone and just give them what they want.

Brian: Yeah.

Susu B.: and for me personally, I'm an immigrant. It's English. Yes. I know how to speak English, but it is not my first language. It's difficult for me sometimes to switch, with pronouns. And I remember, I just worked on it. It is effortful, but it's not that hard. And I think the balancing, the benefits and the risks or what you pay in you really don't waste a lot of energy as much as the person who is trans who feels like no one cares enough to respect their identity.so I completely understand and I think to the listeners, like, if I can do it as an immigrant who definitely just, you know, is having a whole, you know, English could be difficult sometimes it's just like, you know, oh my God, like, do I need to learn all of this? I'm sure everyone can.

Brian: Yeah. It comes with practice. And I think there's also an understanding that other languages function differently. And so like, I know when I'm talking to people who have English as their second or even someone as third language. Right. I'm a lot more forgiving with how I'm being perceived and represented because like It’s the trouble translating.

Brian: Yeah.

Susu B.: So, it's mutual understanding.

Brian: Exactly. Mutual respect comes from that. We are learning together.

Susu B.: Yeah.

Speaker C: Right. And people need to. I think both sides need to bring that kind of respect.

Susu B.: And speaking of that, what should I do if I accidentally call someone by their dead name or use the wrong pronoun? Because I feel like there's a lot of panic that happens.

Brian: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Susu B.: And it's out of respect. It's out of me caring.

Brian: Yes. But the panic, it shifts the narrative. I think sometimes when people go, oh gosh, I'm so, so, so, so sorry. I would never do that. I would never do that. Or I didn't mean to do that, it's like, of course I understand why you're feeling so apologetic. You're feeling like that kind of like sometimes embarrassment or shame because you want to be respectful, you want to be kind. But when you turn it into that, like it's about me, you know, I'm so sorry. I would never do that. I think the shift that needs to happen is, oh, she does this, sorry, he does this, or they do that. You know, like you're changing, like pause and restate. I find when, like correcting people on their pronouns is super, super hard when I hear someone using the wrong pronouns, I repeat the sentence back to them with the right pronouns. So, someone's like, oh, yeah, I saw her at the mall this weekend. I'll be like, oh, you saw them at the mall this weekend. That's so cool. What did, did you go talk to them? You know, and if it continues, I might be more aggressive in my approach of like, oh, did you know they use they, them pronouns.

so, when you're accidentally saying the wrong name, when you're saying the wrong pronouns, just pause. It's okay. I guarantee that trans person has heard it a million times every single day. As I've mentioned before that kind of resilience you have to bring and build. so just pause, correct yourself and keep going.

Susu B.: And don't make it about yourself with that excessive apology. Got it. That's definitely something that I will keep in mind. so now that we're kind of reaching the end, how can each of us, whether 2SLGBTQIA members or allies, contribute to creating a campus culture where all identities feel safe, respected and celebrated?

Brian: I think especially on like campus, you have to bring an open mind. at every experience is going to be different and that you have to listen to people, you have to keep your ears and your heart open, um, and listen to what trans people are saying to you. Listen to when they're stating themselves. And this goes beyond just trans people, but like listen and respect those around you and seek information. There are so many resources, especially on campus.

Susu B.: I was going to ask. That was My next question. If there's support systems or resources or community spaces, that students can feel grounded in their wellness on campus.

Brian: There are so many clubs that exist. there are student organizations, staff organizations. I mean, York has a whole website for this, to be able to go and look and like, York also has like a YU Pride thing that they do every month.

Susu B.: Yeah, and we're gonna add all of the resources in the show notes as well.

Brian: so it is there. It is there. If you choose to look for it, yeah, I think seeking out that support and seeking out information. I mean also like we have an amazing library on campus. Go and read, go and read some texts from trans authors about being trans. Rather experience. And that didn't have to be about being trans, but about navigating the world. Read, research, do gender courses. Like I took a great gender course, and I went into it being like, well I'm trans so I'm probably going to know most of this. I still ended up taking away so much and being like, wow, this is such a great perspective. Seeing the resources, seeing the information in front of me. So just never stop learning.

Susu B.: No, I think that should be really the code of the day. Never stop learning. And it goes both ways. for the trans folks and 2SLGBTQIAS + and, heterosexuals the and cisgenders who need to learn more about each other really. so yeah, with that being said, that concludes our interview. thank you so much Brian for being here today. It was wonderful, interviewing you.

Brian: Thank you.

Susu B.: Yeah, thank you. And we'll see you guys in another episode.

Susu B.: I really want to thank our special guest today, Brian Ginther, a nonbinary queer interdisciplinary multimedia artist, designer and writer. I really enjoyed our enlightening conversation. Thank you, Brian, for being such a valuable resource. You can also find links to all the services Brian mentioned in the show notes for this episode along with more valuable information, tips and resources. Visit our website at go.yorku.ca/wbpodcast Click on the episodes link and look for the episode existing loudly Mental Health in a Trans Body. This episode was co-produced by the Well-being and new podcast team. Our podcast coordinator is Prabhleen Luthra Our technical editor is Carlos Jhonathan Varela Gonzalez. And I'm your host Susu B. And as we mentioned, the quote of the day is Always keep learning. Thank you for listening.