Brian Gibson joins us on the podcast today and he elaborates on the concept of sending missionaries and the ecclesiastical responsibility to support them. Gibson articulates that effective sending entails a triad of resources—meals, medicines, and munitions—drawing an analogy from military logistics to emphasize the importance of consistent support for missionaries on the front lines. He delineates the role of churches and organizations in this process, advocating for a proactive approach to stewardship of the Great Commission. Gibson's experiences in foreign missions enrich the dialogue, as he reflects on the complexities of cultural reintegration for returning missionaries. His insights illuminate the challenges faced by missionaries transitioning back to familiar yet altered environments, and he advocates for intentional debriefing processes that enable them to unpack their experiences and reintegrate holistically into their communities. This segment serves as a vital reminder of the ongoing journey of faith and the essential support structures needed for those who are sent into the world.

Lastly, the episode culminates with a reflective discussion on the importance of debriefing, positing it as a necessary practice for spiritual leaders and missionaries alike. The speakers emphasize that debriefing is not merely a procedural formality but a profound opportunity for individuals to process their experiences, both positive and negative. They articulate that without the intentional act of debriefing, individuals risk missing the richness of their journey and the lessons learned therein. The conversation highlights various indicators that prompt the need for debriefing, including heightened emotional responses and significant life transitions. Furthermore, they discuss the theological underpinnings of debriefing, tracing it back to biblical precedents where God engages with His people through questions that invite reflection and understanding. This thematic exploration reinforces the notion that debriefing is an integral part of spiritual growth and community support, urging listeners to embrace this practice as a means of fostering resilience and gratitude in their faith journeys. The episode concludes with a prayer, encapsulating the themes of encouragement, reflection, and divine support that permeate the discussion.

Takeaways:

• Biblical encouragement and admonishment are essential for the growth and edification of individuals within the church community.
• The teaching of Jesus emphasizes the importance of encouragement, urging us to take heart and not succumb to fear.
• It is often more necessary to provide encouragement than admonishment in the context of spiritual leadership.
• Understanding the significance of debriefing can enhance the effectiveness of global workers and help them process their experiences.
• The process of debriefing allows individuals to unpack their experiences and recognize God's faithfulness in various situations.
• Identifying significant transitions or emotional states in others can prompt meaningful debriefing conversations that foster healing.

Foreign.

Welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

So excited to be back with our friend Dick Foth on another session of Back Channel with Foeth.

And then we're going to jump into our interview with Brian Gibson on Train.

Dick, welcome back to the podcast.

My joy, always a joy, Dick, is our habit.

I have two questions for you.

Biblical encouragement, Biblical admonishment.

What do these mean to you?

You know, there's a verse that Paul, under the unction of the Spirit, writes to the church at Thessaloniki up there in northern Greece, Macedonia, and 1st Thessalonians 5:14, brings them together.

It says, and we urge you, brothers, warn, parentheses, admonish those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone.

I think that kind of covers the waterfront and it's interesting because when you read the epistles, at the very least it talks about within the church, capital C. Do things for the edification, for the upbuilding, the growth of those around you.

And truth be told, both encouragement, which means take heart, and admonishment are part of that.

Any parent knows that.

Any parent knows that.

Warning a child, don't run in the street, there are cars there, that sort of thing.

That's because you love them.

Both of these things come out of love.

One of my favorite places in the Gospels is Jesus comes walking on the water in the storm.

And they've seen Jesus do incredible things, but they're scared out of their minds, the disciples.

And I get that.

And all he says to them is, take heart, I am.

Don't be afraid.

So he comes with encouragement and admonishment in the same phrase, and he puts the stability of himself right at the center.

In the Greek language, it's ego.

I mean, I am.

It's translated.

A lot of times it is I, but it's the I am language of the burning bush.

It's the essential name of God.

And so I think those two things mean, mean to me that I can count on God because he loves me and I can count on you because you love me, to both encourage and admonish as needed.

Wow.

So that, that insinuates a level of trust then.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, we, we were talking about expertise.

Sure.

A couple of episodes ago.

And, and the, the whole challenge with expertise is who do you listen to, who do you, who do you trust?

And so that's the essence of, that's the essence of encouragement and admonishment.

Wow.

Dick.

Their follow up question was how, how can you balance them not in a twisting way, but as a, but being a healthy spiritual leader Balancing that biblical admonishment and biblical encouragement.

Well, I think, you know, at.

At some level, admonishment is confrontation, right?

I mean, you know, just truth telling to your face.

Speaking truth to power is the language we use sometimes and the but.

But percentage wise.

In my experience over the last 60 some years of ministry or mission work, I found that more encouragement is needed usually than admonishment.

Depends on the situation, depends on the person.

I didn't marry her for her to tell me what I'm not.

I know what I'm not.

I desperately need her to tell me who I am and help me get there.

I'll just tell you one quick story that captures this perfectly because sometimes in our hubris, we want to be the admonisher, right?

And we say, well, it's prophetic or whatever it is.

So had a friend who was a mentor to me when I was a young pastor.

And over time something happened.

He got involved in a large mission and ministry and struggled and really had a rough patch.

And So I called two or three friends, some who were his age.

He was about 20 years older than I, and we flew into this location and we spent the evening with him.

And it was a challenging time and he had lost his position and he was in tears.

But at one point along the line, he said, you know, I think there's a book in this.

You know, I think probably I should.

And I love this man.

He had shaped me, left his fingerprints on my soul.

And I, as a younger man, said, well, doctor, so and so, you know, I don't think you should be thinking about a book.

I just don't think.

And I sort of elaborated that with some intensity.

Later, as we were driving back, there was a friend, you might know the name or some listening might know the name within our particular denominational background, named Dr. Dick Dobbins.

Dick Dobbins was a counselor.

He was again, 20 years my senior, just an iconic expert, literally an expert in family life.

He taught at University of Akron and for years.

And he was one of the guys in the room.

We're driving back to the hotel and I turned to him and said, Dr. Dick, don't you think it was important that I say that to our mutual friend?

And he looked at me and smiled very kindly and said, dick, I don't know if you.

I said, don't you think that I needed to say that?

Yeah.

And he, no, I didn't say it that way.

I said, don't you think that our friend needed to hear that?

Yeah.

And he said, I don't know if he needed to hear it, Dick, but you desperately needed to say it.

So, Sherry, Touche.

Touche.

And I apologize to my listeners for having to reframe that three times.

But I'm old.

Sometimes you have to do that, but you got to get it right.

You got it.

You got it and you got it.

So, Dick, always enjoy our time on Back Channel with fo.

Thank you for sharing your wisdom and insight.

We're going to go ahead and jump into our interview with Brian Gibson on train and debriefing and the power that.

The power that gives us admissions life.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started.

So here we go.

Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

So excited to be here today with a new friend.

Brian, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks, Aaron.

Thanks for having me.

Brian and I got to meet each other in Orlando, Florida, and kindred hearts, kindred spirits.

And Brian, for those who didn't get to meet you in Orlando, Florida, would you share a little bit about yourself?

Absolutely, Yes.

I just.

I just had an incoming call and realized I need to silence all my technology.

Yeah.

So my name is Brian Gibson.

I'm originally from Memphis, Tennessee.

So, yeah, a couple things I could share about you are that I grew up in a donut shop.

Okay.

My dad and my mom and my uncle started a donut shop called Gibson's Donuts that you can visit to this day.

Highly recommend it.

Best donuts in the country.

Wow.

Not just my words, but it's even been featured.

So that might not be the direction of this podcast, but I have had donuts on the mind since.

Since Easter morning was generous to us.

So, yes.

I live in Joplin, Missouri.

My wife and I have four kids, and we moved back here after living abroad for a number of years.

Wow.

Wow.

So.

So tell me, what was it like growing up in a donut shop?

Well, it was rewarding.

Maybe that's a good word to choose.

There were a couple of years.

My mom, she wanted to get her master's degree and become a teacher, but before she committed herself to that level of an endeavor, she, for multiple reasons, experimented on us as kids and homeschooled with us.

And so I got two years of my mom being my teacher.

And in that season, we would do homeschool at the donut shop.

And every time I finished the subject, I would get rewarded with donuts.

So I was.

I Was well fed in that season.

Very, very cool.

Well, you look like you've navigated it well.

You ate a lot of donuts and nobody would have never, never known you ate a bunch of donuts.

So I don't have those.

Good genetics.

If I ate a bunch of donuts, I'd, I'd be showing it.

So, so you currently serve Ed Train and you're leading there.

So what.

And, and how is it impacting missionaries today?

Yeah, so we came off the field, we worked in Eastern Europe with Muslims for a number of years.

And suppose Bosnia, Afghanistan and Kosovo was our, our backstory before coming to work with train.

And as a ministry, we work with churches and organizations to help them to partner with organizations and send workers.

Well.

And so I'd say the main, the main thrust of our ministry is what does it look like to steward the Great Commission?

Well, how do we walk well with global workers before they go while they're on the field and in their returning seasons?

And how do we partner well with sending organizations and with churches so that they can play their part well in sending them and caring for them?

Well, yeah.

So paint me a picture of what sending.

Well, looks like you, you mentioned some different parts to that, but if you could paint a picture for somebody listening in, whether that's a, a pastor that's listening into this, an organization, what descending.

Well, if you had to paint a perfect picture, could you paint that for us?

Yeah, Well, I read an article maybe seven years ago that helped frame some of that thinking in A Journal of American Warfare actually.

Okay.

Yeah, it was, it was fascinating to me because it framed a lot of key decisive battles that have been won and lost throughout history based on the maintaining and defending of a supply line or the losing of it.

And what resonated with me, that might be a good way to draw the picture because this is kind of how we frame and adapted some of that to helping people send.

Well is basically three M's of frontline workers, whether they be soldiers in those kind of battles or global workers that are on the front lines need a steady flow of meals, medicines and munitions.

And so that resonated that if soldiers are cut off from meals to nourish them, help them be healthy or if they're well supplied, those are radically different stories.

Same with medicines that soldiers or global workers when get sick or get injured, if we have medicines to bring us back to health, that's a game changer.

And then the munitions that without good munitions, without effective meaningful prayer strategies and tactics to engage people, well, to win them or build a gospel bridge to them.

It doesn't matter how healthy and well fed we are, we're not going to be effective as a fighting force to push back the kingdom of darkness and see Jesus on the throne of people's lives.

So yeah, I think those three M's resonate well of sending what does it look like for a church to raise up and walk well with global workers and once they're sent to have a steady provision of those kinds of resources.

Wow.

Wow.

That's one frame.

Well, and there'd be more.

There'd be more to it than that.

But that's as far as metaphors go.

That one might stick.

That one stuck.

And you, you painted a picture and I could see it in my mind as you were.

You were painting it.

So it's.

And I love the.

The M's.

That'll help a gu.

West Virginia remember.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So you.

You expect.

Send.

You served overseas for an extended period of time.

How did that.

That life of living on the field, being a frontline worker with.

With munitions meals and the other one?

Well, the other M. There was another M. Medicines.

Medicines, yeah.

There you go.

How did that inform you and how's that impacted on how you're serving today?

Is your.

You're helping send missionaries out?

Yeah, that's a great question.

So my wife was in Bosnia before we got married and I was in Kosovo in Afghanistan.

Then we got married and lived together and had our first three kids in Kosovo.

So I would say I could resonate with.

And when we walk with and work with global workers and I think back on those seasons, I think a lot of what that instilled in me is.

Could boil it down to two things.

One, I think the distance and the gap between us being there and being here, it's man, sometimes you just don't have the capacity and the appropriate space to tell the full story of everything that's happening.

Right.

Life is coming at you.

There's the good parts and why they're really good and all the backstory of why this incredible thing that just happened in this relationship or in this breakthrough is so meaningful.

And there's the hard parts and all that goes into the disappointments and the hard parts of the story that are tricky to tell, you know, that are.

Yeah.

That are so time consuming to give enough context and maybe a newsletter, an update.

So I just think back on that season and how, how easy it is to leave out the parts of the story that feel like they're too much to articulate which creates a bigger and a bigger and a bigger gap between our experience as workers and our supporters perception or their understanding of it, which I think just contributes to that.

That feeling of not being known and not being understood.

So that part resonates with some of my.

Our experience and then those that we walk with and then just the sheer accumulation of life that keeps coming at you.

We talk about the metaphor of a backpack, that a backpack is something you wear and it is behind you so you don't see it.

And life keeps coming at you and you accumulate experiences and disappointments, unanswered questions, incredible breakthroughs, and it all just keeps going in the backpack.

You know, it accumulates an ounce or a pound at a time.

And without the intentionality to slow down and take the backpack off and start unpacking what's in there.

It can really get, it can get heavy or it can get so full of so much stuff that keeps coming at you that you just don't have time to celebrate it and integrate it, process it, etc.

Yeah, but I'd say.

So those are the first thoughts that come down my mind on the other half.

I think our story, God was just so gracious that I think he wants us to thrive right anywhere we are, whatever we're doing, he invites us into the abundant life.

And that's not every moment of every day and that's not every hour of every season, for sure.

But when I think back on our time overseas, God brought us the right people at the right time in some of the hardest moments.

And he brought us the right resources at the right time.

Not always when we wanted them for sure.

Not always in the way that felt like right on time.

Because he's wiser than we are and smarter than we are.

But when I think about how consistent he was to bring someone who asked us good coaching questions or who would poke a little deeper and say that's cool that you're sharing all the stuff you've done, the things you're accomplishing, who are you becoming and how's your walk with the Lord?

People who would poke a bit deeper.

We want as a ministry and as a team, we want to help bring those same, those right resources at the right time and other people's stories.

Yeah, good word.

And so you had the, you had the opportunity to do, opportunity to serve solo and then you served married and then you married with children.

So you, you've covered a lot of the different aspects and the different realities of that.

Brian, for somebody that's listening in that maybe they're serving solo today.

Any words of wisdom for them as they navigate living overseas?

Because I think there's some unique challenges.

Would you agree or disagree with that?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So my wife and I just celebrated 20 years of marriage last year.

So it's been a hot minute since I was serving solo.

But when I go back into that season and my wife also served solo for a while, I think probably a good word for me that the Lord brought through a number of different people's voices was just because as a single person, as someone serving solo, Paul talks about that, right.

It's like, hey, it's actually pretty sweet.

You've got no one else to please and no other concerns and interests to weigh out.

And so that unfettered attention can be given, whatever that looks like, to walk out well with the Lord.

And so I think in that capacity to do so, to remind ourselves that we are more than what we do, you know, we are more than what we do.

We're holistic creatures, and God is as interested in who we're becoming as what we are accomplishing.

And as a young single man serving solo, I would just slap that away and be like, yeah, but we've got incredible open doors and so much opportunity to do and to go and to move.

And so I think that that can be a helpful word.

Yeah, for sure.

For sure.

And thanks.

Thanks for going back into the research files on that one.

The annals of history.

And, you know, I really resonated with you that, you know, God brought the right people at the right times.

I can look back over our time and whether it was Burkina, Madagascar, or Kenya, I couldn't have orchestrated it.

Like, I couldn't.

Like, if I tried to orchestrate bringing the right people in my life at these times, I couldn't have orchestrated it.

But God and some of the people I've never met again, you know, I mean, they would just end our life for a few weeks at a certain time, passing through, whether that was passing through Ouagadougou or Antananarivo or somewhere else.

But just to speak a word, like you said, sometimes a challenging word, sometimes an encouraging word, sometimes, yeah, just.

But, man, and I'm so grateful and thankful that God brings those people into our lives at just the right time.

Just the right time.

So one of the things that Trane does very well is debrief.

So what is a debrief?

Philosophically?

Yeah, that's a fun question.

Philosophically, when we unpack, debriefing, and train people in something that we have called the debriefers toolbox.

We talk about the way to condense that down is a debrief is creating time and space for people to unpack and process their experiences with God and with other people.

And so philosophically, it is slowing people down long enough to unshoulder the backpack and start to pull out experiences and seasons and individuals and begin to name them and process them in such a way that we can integrate them into our lives.

So I really like John Maxwell who said, I like his quote where he's commenting on the idea that experience is the greatest teacher.

And he says, no, that can't be true.

If that were true, there would be no such thing as old fools.

In order to get old and wise and learn lots of lessons, you just need to not die.

Right.

And so he added, he said it's evaluated experiences and reflected upon experiences that are really the greatest teacher.

And so, yeah, philosophically, I think in a lot of ways, a debrief is giving people the gift of the intentionality to unpack a season and mind the depths of what God has been up to, what's been good, what's been hard, and what do we do with that?

Yeah, you intentionally use the word, the gift of slowing down.

Could you.

And is that a challenge that people that maybe you don't want to do a debrief because you don't want to slow down to do it.

Thoughts on that, Brian?

Is it a challenge?

Is that your question?

No, the question is the challenge.

I think it is a challenge because you mentioned you had this slowdown, so that let me know.

That is a challenge.

How do you navigate that with somebody that is not interested in slowing down and to do this?

Or somebody is saying, yeah, that Brian, that's a good idea for, for hoofy foofy people.

But I'm a, I'm a pioneer, strong missionary.

I don't need.

I don't need a debrief.

And you've served in some very difficult places.

So some of the most difficult places on the globe.

So for you.

Yeah, just that's.

Thoughts on that.

How do you, how do you have a conversation with somebody says, I don't really need to slow down and do this?

Yeah, I think winning people over in small ways to that and helping them reap the benefit of it, they're not willing to buy into the longevity of it because getting a plane ticket to go back to the states and do a debrief or carving out space on budget on the calendar and the bank account, if that feels like too big an ask because we've got things to do and other priorities.

Then I think the intentionality of engaging people well in just a debrief conversation where you're showing them the value, and I think that boosts the value and creates a little bit more receptivity and willingness because, well, I think we know at this point in time Jesus was a master debriefer.

God the Father in the Old Testament was the first debriefer as far as interacting with his people in order to draw out from the deep waters of our minds and our hearts and our experiences so that we make connections and know him better and know ourselves better.

So it's not a new idea.

And I think it's, it's God's way of being with his people in a way not to, not to oversell it, but yeah, those are some thoughts that come to mind.

What do you think in your experience and maybe personally as well as people that you've watched with, what have you seen helps people.

I was one of those people who didn't want to slow down and do it.

So that's why I was interested in how you encourage you.

But once I slowed down, I think there was a concern that I didn't know, you know, what are you going to pull out of that backpack?

Like you did?

Back to your analogy.

Like what?

You know, I put some things in there.

What am I going to pull out of the backpack?

Do I really want to pull it out?

Is it easier just to carry it and not have to process it or, you know, give it to Jesus or whatever?

You get comfortable sometimes carrying things.

We've walked through that with our family.

It was super valuable and listeners have heard me share about that.

It was one of the, It's a transformational time of my life and have written about it and I 100% believe in, in debriefing and.

Yeah, so you, you mentioned theologically is some different things.

So there is a, there's a theological component to this.

I, I 100% believe that any, any other words on, on the theological component of a debrief?

Yeah, there really is.

The more you look at the Scriptures, especially with a lens.

Excuse me.

The more you see God's intentionality of his way of engaging with his people, which I think is, is really beautiful.

I think.

Maybe a few thoughts that come to mind and then let's zoom in on that because I think that would be fun to bat around some things that we've learned and unpacked.

But when things first go wrong, in the Garden of Eden.

Just seeing God's reaction to that isn't punishment or corrective.

It's initially a question, where are you?

Right.

And then he finds them, they have an interaction and they say, oh, we hid from you because we were naked.

And then God's question is that idea, that self perception that came from somewhere.

And so he says, who told you that?

Who told you you were naked?

So I think even that just following the thread of God's intentionality to encounter his people and meet them with curiosity, he doesn't, he doesn't debrief them, he doesn't ask us questions for information he doesn't know.

Right.

Obviously.

But he is, he's giving us the chance to name some things out loud.

So, yeah, in short, we see in the Old Testament in the stories, I think there's another beautiful picture of God's encounter with Hagar that my friend Jonathan Trotter and I, we discovered this one together where he comes to her and he says, hagar, where have you come from and where are you going?

Which is an interesting question.

Where the Lord meets her in the desert and encounters that, she encounters that from God himself.

That's a great way to think of debriefing.

All right, what's behind you?

Let's talk about it.

Where are you headed?

Let's talk about it.

Yeah.

And then walking, jumping forward into the New Testament, we see Jesus.

Probably the most compelling picture there in brief, is in the gospels, in Luke 10 and in Mark 6, where both of those are two separate encounters where he calls the 12 to himself and he trains them, he gives them a little pre field training and he says, here's what to pack.

You know, bring a sword, bring a cloak, don't bring this.

And then here's where to go.

I want you to go to these kinds of people, not those kinds of people.

And here's what to say and here's how to respond if they don't receive you well.

And he's real explicit with his training and he sends them off and they go and they're, they're faithful to do what they were sent to do.

And then they come back and in Mark 6 he says, why don't you come away with me to a quiet place and get some rest and let's unpack what just happened in Luke 10, same thing.

It says the disciples all gathered around him, the 72, and that whole crew, they gather around him and they told all about the stories of what happened.

They're like, we saw Satan or we drove out spirits and we healed people.

And Jesus says, yes, I saw Satan fall like lightning.

And then he tells them, I don't know exactly the tone of his voice, but he says, but don't rejoice at all these incredible things you've seen and done.

Rejoice that your names are written in the book of life.

And that to me, when I think of the theological underpinnings of debriefing, seems like a really, a cool indicator of the Lord himself, not just celebrating their accomplishments and achievements, but also bringing them into alignment.

To say, that's not even the best part, you guys.

The best part is like success or failure, fruit or not, your.

Your standing in the sight of God is solid.

That's.

That's great.

And then maybe one more in the New Testament, you know, there's Jesus's example.

And then after he's risen and sins, since people out in the Great Commission, you see in Acts 13, same type of repetition of this.

Where there's a church they're worshiping, set apart from Abarnabus and Saul, they send them off, they get to work.

And then at the end of chapter 14, it says they come back from having visited all these cities and towns and villages.

And Paul and Barnabas reported all they had done and taught.

And this says that they stayed there for no short time.

So, yeah, just a lot of examples theologically of this was a rhythm, a way of God in the Old Testament, a rhythm of Jesus in the New Testament that made a deep enough impression that when it came time for the church to do what they saw Jesus do, they kept these parts right.

Let's train well, sin well, and let's make space to process and debrief.

No, love it.

And love the intentionality and, and the scriptural, the scriptural underpinnings of it.

I. I think so.

Brian, somebody's listening to this and they're thinking, when do I do a debrief?

Like, is there a perfect time to do it?

How do I engage?

Is this you.

You shared?

It's kind of a.

It can be a rhythm of life.

Somebody's asking that question.

Any words of wisdom for them?

April.

Weather's great in April.

Yeah, that's a great question.

I'd say half jokingly, but also seriously.

I encourage a lot of the organizational partners and sending agencies that we work with.

Your first term, your last term, and any term in between where anything hairy happens.

And so after your first term is a Great opportunity if we could normalize that to say, okay, you probably went out with a lot of extra expectations of how, how great you would do and how fruitful you would be and how fast you learn the language and how well or not the people would receive you.

And now all those expectations have met reality and you have probably begun to create some narratives about God and his faithfulness, about you and your effectiveness.

Let's debrief those things and catch them early before they become seeds in the dirt that maybe create weeds in your garden.

Right.

So let's debrief that first term how to go with your teammates, you know, what are you learning about yourselves?

Let's talk about your marriage.

Let's unpack these things well early on so we can maybe correct.

Do some course correction early in the journey.

Yeah.

But then, yeah, the last term also, you know, when, when that identity of having been a global worker is shifting into a new chapter.

That's a lot to process too.

And so.

Yeah, that's amazing for sure.

And so when, so planning these, being intentional about end of first term anytime any said anything hairy happen.

So that would be like a crisis or a change in maybe family status or that maybe conflict on the field.

Would that be the kind of things you're thinking of?

That's right, yeah.

Anything significant deep transitions.

Sometimes there's, you know, a need for a critical incident or kind of a crisis debrief where something really, really heavy has happened on the field or with the team or kidnapping or safety and security types of issues.

Yeah, but it doesn't have to be that drastic.

Just we went to the field, we were there for four years and we had a miscarriage.

Went to the field.

We were there for our first three years or there for a season or however long couple or three terms and now we have kids or I was single and now I'm married.

And so yeah, something significant that represents a fairly radical shift in your way of operating is worth peeling away and what that looks like.

It doesn't have to be a debrief with trained international that's five days long, but there are a lot of ways to just carve out time and space to pack.

How's, how is that hitting you?

How are you absorbing that?

Yeah.

Process that well.

So Brian, you ask great questions.

That's one thing I learned from being with you in a short amount of time.

So somebody's listening into this and they're thinking, you know, I like, they're a leader and maybe they, they, they see, they saw those time points of, you know, end of term, first term, the end of, you know, when they're transitioning out.

But they're wondering is they have conversations with people they serve, maybe how could they ask a question or two to see.

Maybe Aaron needs a debrief or maybe this is something I would recommend.

Any words of encouragement for a leader listening in this on how they could wonder or how they could decide if this would be something they would encourage people to do or should they just encourage it for everybody and that just be a line that they say to everybody, get a debrief.

I don't know.

But thoughts on that because you're great at asking questions and you're intentional about it and you're a great listener and so.

And somebody that wants to grow in those areas, specifically when it.

To serve others when it comes to debrief.

Any words of encouragement for them?

Wow, thanks, man.

That's very.

That's very affirming.

Very encouraging.

I think both.

And I like the way you just framed that.

Let's do encourage and try to normalize the intentionality of debriefing.

Sure.

And what are some indicators that someone might uniquely need to be invited to make some space?

Right.

I think when we notice speech patterns, burnout.

There's an assessment called the Bat 23 that helps measure a level of burnout that people experience.

And when that rises over a certain level, one of the things that people notice is an increase in cynicism.

And I think just noticing the language of our people who go hopeful, you know, we all go hopeful and then our hopefulness is tempered, our optimism is.

Is tempered with other things as well.

But hopefully we don't become cynical.

Right.

And so I think the detection of cynicism needs to be met with intentional engagement to unpack where that's coming from.

That'd be one.

But we have an acronym that's not exactly on target with what you're talking about.

But as far as some things to pay attention to when we're training global workers or equipping caregivers is just the word slow.

That's S L, O, W. And so that stands for when there are significant seasons, when there's low grade tension or lingering emotions, when there is an ongoing pace where it's been fast, bam, bam, bam.

One thing after another, not a lot of space to process.

And when there have been wins that you don't want to waste.

So slow, significant seasons are, you know, endings or intensities or significant transitions like we talked about earlier.

And then maybe something feels off that Low grade friction or lingering emotions is maybe you just notice a note of heaviness or depressiveness, something feels off, someone seems numb.

Those kinds of things.

Let's, let's be intentional.

Start asking and pressing in with questions about what's going on.

And yeah, I think that last one catches some people off guard because debriefing isn't for someone.

Something's wrong.

Right.

But what are some wins that have happened in this season that we would need to be wise enough to pause long enough to catch and say what are the kinds of things that were going on in this season that maybe lent to that contributed to this being such a fruitful or an uplifting or a positive season?

And how could we learn from that in such a way to, to normalize that?

Yeah, for sure.

And I love, as you said, it's not necessarily that something's wrong, but it is.

I think it gives an honor.

It gives us an opportunity to be grateful.

I think sometimes we can move on to the next thing.

And I think that pause to give thanks and be grateful and in different seasons, and I think that's one of the seasons I, before walking, you know, from, from Valentine's to Easter was just, just a season of gratefulness of the, the blessings of God in my life.

And I would love to tell you I had slowed down and you know, in the past to do that, but just an intentional way of, of thanking people that have been a blessing in my life.

And just the, yeah, just the blessing.

Even around Easter, I think the big thing hit was, you know, it talks about when Jesus, the presence of God left him.

And just, it was just a reminder me that God's presence has never left me.

And just to be grateful for that, you know, of all other things, God's presence is there.

And for some reason this Easter season, it just really, it really hit home.

And you talked about when seeing someone cynical.

The listeners have heard me share this story, but I'll share it again.

I was in Burkina struggling, and our.

The gentleman I would call my spiritual father came to visit.

We.

I'd been sick.

You know, I said something to him to the effect of this.

You know, I'm just worried about getting bitter.

You know, I just don't want to be bitter.

And you know, he paused and he said, you know, I don't think that's what we need to worry about.

It's how do we allow God to heal our hearts once we are bitter.

And I said, and I said, so.

So you're thinking, Are you thinking, I'm bitter.

And he's like, yeah, yeah.

He said, I don't think we have to worry about becoming bitter.

The question is, how does God heal our hearts once we are bitter?

And having somebody that was willing to.

In a gentle way.

He said it in a very pastoral, kind, loving way, not condemnation or judging, but he had the ability to tell me the truth.

So when you shared about cynicism, you know, I was there.

You know, I went a lot of hopes, a lot of expectations, but through sickness, through disappointment, you know, I was, I was a bitter, a bitter young man.

So anyway, yeah, yeah.

And what a beautiful counter to my natural.

And maybe your natural disposition would be to say, how do we prevent those crappy things from coming up?

And his answer was, you can't.

If you have a pulse, they will accumulate.

And then we bring them to the Lord.

And he knows just what to do with it.

That's so good.

And being willing to walk with me as I, I took him to the Lord for the Lord to do the work.

And he rec.

You know, those are the things only God can heal.

And it was, it was, it was a blessing for sure.

So you mentioned earlier on about train and providing a debriefing toolbox.

Can you, can you share a little bit more about that?

Absolutely.

So about six years ago, we were asked to start partnering with some of the sending organizations that we work with to multiply and train additional debriefers.

And so the question was, how do you go about doing what you do and how did you begin to form that process?

And so that was what began to give birth to the debriefers toolbox, which has a five day version and a three day intensive version of unpacking the theology as well as the philosophy.

And then the methodology of how do.

What are the principles by which we have organized ours that you could contextualize and you could create your own debrief?

You need to copy and paste exactly what we do.

So that's an exploration through the Scriptures and then a look throughout history at how, what's the psychological truth, what are the practical truths, what is happening in an individual when we meet them well and help them unpack and process well.

And what does that entail?

So yeah, the point of that and the goal of that is education and information.

Yes.

But then also skills and postures.

What is our way of being with people that can create a safe environment so that they can process in a way that doesn't feel too frou frou, you know, and doesn't put people off and make them feel like, this can't be for me.

My arms are crossed.

You can't pry.

You won't pry feelings out of me.

Yeah, yeah.

So by the end, people have learned some things, we've modeled some things, and then people have practiced and gotten feedback on interacting in those kinds of ways.

Wow.

So what, what, what if you paint a picture or list the qualities of a good debriefer, what are you looking for when.

When you say, yeah, I get a toolbox, Brian, and you can train me, but do I have the skills to do it?

Maybe somebody's asking that question.

Yeah, it's not a short list.

We have 16 key competencies and that we're looking for.

Some of them are things we do and some are things we don't do.

But for the sake of just simplicity, I think a posture of presence and an attitude of curiosity will carry the day.

Okay.

A posture of being present and slow enough to make eye contact, ask people good questions, listen, and then to not jump to assumptions and over identification like, oh, Aaron, yeah, you felt that way in Burkina Faso.

Let me interrupt you and tell you about the time when I felt like that.

Let me take the microphone from you and tell you my story.

But a great debriefer is someone who has processed their own story to the degree that they're able to wield it, but they're not living in it anymore.

And so your hard moments aren't triggering me in a way that I need you to now care for me, because I had a hard thing happen in my story.

So listen to me, process it and comfort me.

That doesn't mean that we dehumanize ourselves and are invincible, but I would say those two skills go a long way of the posture of presence and an attitude of curiosity to ask rather than to assume.

Yeah, and you've.

And you, you, you, you embody both of those.

As I said, you're a great question asker and great listener.

And, and I'm sure you got tons of stories to tell, but you refrain from telling the stories because then you, you just ask.

You ask more questions.

So, so somebody last.

I got one, maybe one or two more questions for you.

So you offer an adult tck.

Debrief for those returning to the US The US what does this look like?

And, and I.

My assumption is that's another critical time to have a debrief is making that transition back to the U.S. what does that look like for an adult TCK debrief coming back to the US and some of the values of doing it at that time.

Yeah.

So in our, in our family debriefs, which we call abide in a regular abide, the adults and the kids, the TCKs are having a concurrent debrief at the same time in different buildings, different areas, different rooms that are all age appropriate.

And so those would be the 4 year old, the 10 year old, the 12 year old, the 16 year old.

The family's all there and we're all processing.

And then at the end of the day they go home under the same roof of a house or Airbnb or whatnot.

And we've helped build a bridge so they can meet one another in those stories.

The adult TCK debrief is a little different from that in that it's a standalone for people that are no longer necessarily living under their parents roof.

They might be 21, they might be college graduates, they might be coming back to get a job.

Maybe they're coming back at 18 or 19 to start life and education in the United States for the first time.

So where an adult might be coming to the States and they're doing re entry.

Right.

They're coming back to a place that re entry stress is real because they've changed and this place has changed and they have to figure out how to integrate that.

An adult TCK is doing entry the same way you and me were doing entry when we moved to Burkina or Afghanistan.

Right.

So they're not coming back to a familiar place often.

Sometimes it is somewhat familiar and that's what contributes to the third culture.

But some of the goal of that adult TCK debrief is to have someone walk well with them and prepare them realistically for what does it look like to live in and operate in the atmosphere of American cultural values.

What are some of those, what are some of the values that you have internalized and have become a part of your worldview and your way of looking at that life and seeing the Lord and seeing other people and where might those things come into conflict and tension with one another?

And how can we help you walk that out?

Well, not in an adversarial way of Americans are all stupid or vice versa.

Oh, this place is great.

And I grew up in the backwoods and now I'm ashamed of my past.

And so we want to help them integrate well and have the similar types of skills that we would train global workers as they're going for.

So there's a little Bit of something kind of like a pre field training where we're looking at values, we're looking at culture, but we're also helping them process their story of what it is that they're bringing to the table as they begin this next chapter of their stories.

Wow.

Good word.

Good word.

Last question I have for you, Brian.

Then I'm going to ask you to pray for us.

So you might be thinking, Aaron, if you were a good podcast host, you would have asked me this question.

Is there a question that I should have asked you or something you'd like to share and before you pray for us?

Yeah, yeah, I would.

Let's, let's do this.

I would say let's both answer this question.

What do you think happens if we say yes to God's invitation to go to the field and we walk that out for 15 years and start to finish, including the landing and the wrapping up and moving into whatever's next?

What do you.

What are some of the consequences if we never debrief?

What is something a price we pay or something we lose?

I think I'd go back to my original answer was, is we missed the opportunity to be grateful for what he's done and miss the opportunity to recognize his faithfulness through the good and the difficult.

Because I think it's going to be difficult, but not slowing down.

Those, those would be the two things at the top of my mind.

And you, what do you think?

Well, I had a funny picture that came to mind while you were talking of the Oregon Trail.

Do you remember playing the Oregon Trail?

Did you ever play that game growing up?

Yeah, it's my favorite.

So you'd go hunting in the Oregon Trail, and if you shot a bear, it would tell you that you brought like 550 pounds of meat, but that you could only carry back 100 pounds.

And no matter what, you always had to leave all that rest out there.

That's kind of where, when you were talking, I know why my kids are playing Oregon Trail these days, and so many.

That's why.

But yeah, I think of all of the generosity of the Lord, like you just said, of the good parts and the hard parts and the finding him faithful and then the wondering whether he is faithful and waiting for him to show himself in new ways.

There's so much richness in that that we could just leave on the table, you know, and so, yeah, I think I'd be with you as far as we, we would fail to mind the depths of the totality of what the Lord was inviting us into.

And what he has bestowed us.

So, yeah, let's.

Let's lean in.

Good word.

Good word.

Brian, will you pray for us today?

You bet.

Thanks for having me, brother.

Yeah, it's been honor.

It's been fun.

Father God, thank you.

Thank you for this conversation.

Thank you for those who are listening.

Thank you for technology.

That means in a month or in a year, the conversation between your.

Your people could be something profitable for those in the future.

Those are great gifts.

Lord Jesus, thank you for your intentionality to encounter your people.

Thank you for your willingness to ask hard questions.

I think of Jesus saying, hey, you read the Scriptures.

What do you think this means?

What do you make of it?

How do you interpret it?

And I think of questions like him asking blind Bartimaeus, what do you want me to do for you?

And some of the ways you interact with your people seem obvious.

And why do you ask such questions?

I just want to say thank you, Lord, that you're showing us and you're teaching us every day more ways than that we can be like you and we can.

We can imitate your way of being with those that we shepherd, those we walk with and, and those are no small things.

And so thank you for the immeasurable gift of being invited to be sons and daughters in your family.

Thank you that our names are written in the book of life, and thank you that there are meaningful good works prepared for us in advance that we have opportunity to say yes to.

We pray for encouragement, pray for fresh encounters with you, and that the questions that you ask us, and if we're talking debriefing kinds of things, then, Lord, would you draw up and excavate out of us new ways to speak the truth of how you are good.

We love you and we're so glad that you loved us and came looking for us before we were looking for you.

In Jesus name we pray.

Amen.

Amen.