Shownotes
The team kicks things off with historical reflections on George Washington's inauguration and the Louisiana Purchase before steering into current events, like the recent suspensions of judges in New Mexico and Wisconsin for shocking courtroom misconduct.
You'll hear the hosts’ candid takes on the responsibilities that come with upholding the law, as they dissect what happens when those in power break or bend the rules for their own moral reasons. The conversation doesn’t stop there: they also dive into the economics of electric trucks, dissect why Toledo was recently ranked the #1 market in America, and debate the fairness and effectiveness of big tax incentive packages for businesses in Ohio.
From judicial ethics to the cost of brand new pickups, and the ongoing debate over DEI policies and free speech on campuses, nothing is off limits at this roundtable. If you’re ready for lively, informed, and unfiltered talk about the issues affecting Ohio and beyond, this episode has got you covered.
3 Key Takeaways:
Judicial Accountability Matters: We explored recent stories where judges overstepped legal bounds—including a Wisconsin judge who facilitated a defendant’s escape—highlighting why trust in the judiciary relies on their impartial compliance with the law.
Ohio Real Estate Surprises: Toledo took the top spot in the Wall Street Journal’s ranking of affordable and desirable real estate markets, but as the discussion revealed, economics and regional trends don’t always make perfect sense on paper.
Government, Business & Equity: From billion-dollar tax credits to state-level DEI reforms, this episode dug into how government intervention can shape (and sometimes complicate) the playing field for businesses and individuals in Ohio.
We have our moments
00:00 Judges Involved in Criminal Scandals
05:29 Judge Aids Defendant's Escape
11:09 Wisconsin's Policy on ICE Coordination
20:38 Jeff Bezos-Backed Slate Trucks
25:06 Toledo: Top City for Homebuyers
31:18 Ohio Tech Job Investment
32:52 Grant Bias and Taxpayer Impact
42:19 DEI Concerns on Liberal Campuses
47:14 Freedom of Speech and Discrimination Debate
50:31 Client Notification and Ethical Concerns
55:32 Executive Orders: A Shift in Perspective?
59:03 "Trump's Immigration Policies Praised"
Recorded at the 511 Studios, in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH.
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/
Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.
Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.
Brett Johnson, My Podcast Guy®, is an award-winning podcast consultant and small business owner for nearly 10 years, leaving a long career in radio. He is passionate about helping small businesses tell their story through podcasts, and he believes podcasting is a great opportunity for different voices to speak and be heard.
info@commonsenseohioshow.com
Copyright 2025 Common Sense Ohio
Mentioned in this episode:
Transcripts
We are live coming at you, Common Sense Ohio. Check us out commonsenseohioshow.com. Here come the judge. There go the judge out the back door as it turns out. And, you know, know, this Christmas, maybe you can buy yourself a a your your buy your son a truck for Christmas, battery operated $20,000 truck. We'll get to that. Toledo makes it number one. How and why? We'll find out and probably still won't understand it.
Steve Palmer [:And then it is fourteen point two six weeks, point two seven four years. What does that equal? One hundred days of Donald Trump in the White House. So Common Sense Ohio show brought to you by Harper Plus accounting. We got a new spot from Harper Plus. We're gonna see, we always talk about Harper Plus, but now we're gonna really show you Harper Plus. Dan, see if you can tee it up, and we'll, we got a new spot, highly produced, Harper Plus spot we're gonna share right now.
Brett Johnson [:Good. God. We're so professional.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Look at Holy. Imagine Wow. Anyway, so, yeah, we got our own spot. I mean, look. If you can endure that, you're gonna be able to endure this show. I promise you. I promise you.
Norm Murdock [:And and you can have an ad like that too on our show.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. You wanna be a sponsor. You wanna sponsor, say, for instance, like, this day in history, give us a shout. CommonSenseOhioShow.com. Check us out. We'll we'll, we'll get your business. You can you have a spot. We'll even help you do it.
Steve Palmer [:It's easy. It's fun. Yeah. Everybody's doing it. Trust me. It's the cool thing to do. So this day in history, there was a lot of choices, believe it or not, in this day history, like like the fall of Saigon. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Lots of them. But I would rather talk about, the experiment, of a nation. The nation itself, in fact, was an experiment, said George Washington on his inauguration day on 04/30/1789 stressed, of course, the Bill of Rights, the constitution, humbly stood there in his brown suit and overcoat with his battle sword, of course. Wow. And he Brown
Norm Murdock [:suit like Obama?
Steve Palmer [:Apparently, I guess. But, no. I mean, you know, that's when the experiment started, and Yeah. It, sort of interesting, that he called it an experiment, and we still think of it as somewhat of an experiment. The other thing, I usually only talk about one fact, but I'd also wanna talk about something else. The Louisiana Purchase, I think, was finalized this day in history. And that's fascinating to me because Thomas Jefferson, who was, like, one of these guys that says, no. The government can't just do things and the president can't just do he did it.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. You know, he bought Louisiana.
Norm Murdock [:But it's it's some kind of a, unbelievable, like, alien topic to discuss buying Greenland. Yeah. We bought we bought a shit ton of real estate as a country.
Steve Palmer [:Well, the closing on that, apparently, was $8,008.18 $0.03. Right. We United States and Napoleonic France completed negotiations for Louisiana purchase a massive land sale Right. That basically doubled our size of our country. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:And, you know, just Those people were insane.
Steve Palmer [:They were nuts.
Norm Murdock [:They were dictators that did that. They were orange Hitlers.
Steve Palmer [:The study the student of history, it it it tends to repeat itself when you when you look at it, and you can always find parallels and draw. And that's why they say study. If you don't study history, you're doomed to repeat it. But I think even if you do study it, you are also doomed to repeat it. You just understand that you're gonna repeat it.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Well, sometimes repeating it is not a bad thing because something happened good in history to repeat.
Steve Palmer [:Or to claim that something that's happening in history is gonna be catastrophic to the world, and you realize you look back. And even in our own short history, you find things that are sort of similar that happened in history that we've survived. So we will survive this, I promise. Yeah. I think. Absolutely, sir. Shall we promise? Anyway, the lead story, we you know, here come the judge, here come the judge. You'll laugh in.
Steve Palmer [:We're now we're aging ourselves. I I mean, that is at the beginning of my TV tenure laugh in.
Norm Murdock [:I mean That was ancient.
Steve Palmer [:That's really before my time, but I know about it. And I happen to know about it, Norm, because I own a Pontiac GTO. And those who know what a Pontiac anything about Pontiac GTOs, the judge is like the holy grail of a Pontiac GTO.
Norm Murdock [:They are, man.
Steve Palmer [:A stripped down Judge cost, like, $2,000 or $2,800 back in the day. It's worth, like, 2,800,000.0. It's probably an exaggeration, but not much. I mean, if you get a '72 Judge, there was a lot, like, nine convertibles made, I think, and you still have one of those. That's where some money comes.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah. Brett looked it up. Flip Wilson.
Brett Johnson [:Flip Wilson.
Steve Palmer [:Old Flip Wilson.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Did that on laughing.
Steve Palmer [:You're coming to Judge. You're coming to this great stuff.
Norm Murdock [:It was good stuff, man.
Steve Palmer [:But the reason we're talking about that, Norm, obviously, we've got judges going out the back door, which is sort of a fascinating topic.
Norm Murdock [:Well, this guy, judge Cano in New Mexico, a federal district court judge, he and his wife had a trende alagra guy, not Allegra, that that would be a pharmaceutical, but a trende alagra guy, living in a casita, which I think is fancy name for a shed, in their backyard, in in in, New Mexico. And, he was a gang member. They supplied him with guns so he could go target shooting. I mean, it was outrageous behavior on this guy's part. And, so he got raided, by by Pam Bondi and, the FBI and, ICE, and he's been charged, arrested and charged and suspended. And similarly, not exactly the same fact pattern, but up in Wisconsin, a state, judge, for the state of Wisconsin, ushered a guy was brought in for assault and, gosh. It it was a bunch of violent charges.
Steve Palmer [:Well, it was criminal case, assault and and some other stuff in his courtroom. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Batteries. So, you know, like, it was domestic violence kind of stuff. And he was he was brought in for, I don't know, arraignment, a trial. I don't know what what it was. And she the judge, the the Wisconsin judge got the, word that the feds were gonna arrest him right after the trial so or right after the hearing. So after the hearing, she opens up the door to the back of the courthouse and the lawyer and the defendant were, allowed to leave via the back door. And then there was a street chase down the sidewalk with the FBI in hot pursuit of this guy, which exposed everybody to more danger. And, obviously, it was a complete dereliction of her duty under the law.
Norm Murdock [:And she has been suspended by the Wisconsin Supreme Court, which is not, just so you know, which is not a conservative court. So even they have recognized what she did was outraged.
Steve Palmer [:This is, this is troubling on all for on all levels. Right? And and let me just give you my experience practicing law in front of judges. If I would have done something similar. So for instance, as a as a lawyer, there's been some disciplinary hearings and some other decisions about what happens when I misinform a court. So if the judge even if I stand silent and let misinform or let erroneous assumptions being made Yeah. Like, the the the case I'm talking about. I have a DUI client, and let's say I'm standing in front of the judge, and the prosecutor says, judge, this is a first offense DUI. Therefore, first offense mandatory minimum penalties apply.
Steve Palmer [:And I, as the attorney for the client, know that that's not accurate. Yeah. I know that it's actually the second offense or maybe even the third offense. I have an affirmative duty, ethically speaking anyway, to speak up and fix that.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. But, Steve, just real quick. My understanding from my old days in law school is you are an officer of the court.
Steve Palmer [:I'm an officer of the court. Right. Now that that's not even half as bad as what this judge did. So let's let's say that I, my client brings in what what what if I if I assist my client in committing a crime, then I'm a criminal. Right? You know, it's it's a crime.
Brett Johnson [:Like you held dirty money or something.
Norm Murdock [:Like, if
Steve Palmer [:well, if I hold dirty money or or the client gives me the proceeds of a robbery like you're talking about, and and I I help them hide it or whatever. And, you know, clients call me all the time and say, look. What can I do? How does it and I always have the same advice. Look. I can help you not commit a crime, but I can't help you commit a crime. Yeah. And, you know, it's such an obvious but but but good distinction. And what this judge did is basically help the client commit a crime.
Norm Murdock [:This is a Wisconsin judge?
Steve Palmer [:The Wisconsin judge. Right? So the the guy had warrants, and these could be warrants for ICE, for being an illegal immigrant. They could be this happens all the time. I have clients waiting in a court. So this is a better maybe even better example. I I show up in court with a client who's got a warrant on a different felony. Let's say, for instance, that I'm standing in a in municipal court conducting an arraignment or some procedural hearing with my client, who I know has felony warrants, and I say, look, I found out you got felony warrants. Why don't you follow me outside door? We'll we'll get you out
Brett Johnson [:of here.
Steve Palmer [:Even though we know the we know the the police are out there with handcuffs, ready to take you over to felony court.
Norm Murdock [:Keys are in the ignition.
Steve Palmer [:I I'm gonna take you out of here. I gotcha. I gotcha. I'm the getaway driver in a crime. Yes. No kidding. That's what this judge did. And and even the people on the left are sent are are now they're they're talking like Thoreau type
Norm Murdock [:Ugh.
Steve Palmer [:Protest. And but look. This is not this is different. These are sworn officers of court. These people took an oath Right. To to follow the law. Now you don't have to agree with the law to follow it. And, you know, Sean Hannan, rest his god rest his soul, he used to work for me.
Steve Palmer [:He was a he was an army guy. He was killed. Yeah. And he always I I remember asking him in, like, in the military. It's like I I because I was reading a bunch of World War two history at the time, and these guys used they had a term for for officers who were, what they call it chicken shit. You know? Yeah. Right. Officers who were just, like, neatly nitpickers assholes.
Norm Murdock [:Right. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And he said, look. You respect the rank, not the man. Yeah. You respect the law Of course. Even if you even if you don't agree with it. Absolutely. And, and that's what this judge did not do.
Norm Murdock [:She Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:They did not respect the law.
Norm Murdock [:So the left has been trying to portray this as, like, a Dred Scott situation. You know, like Right. Like like you're doing something higher
Steve Palmer [:order Social justice. Morality. Right. Right. Right.
Norm Murdock [:No. No. No. Come on.
Steve Palmer [:No. This is not getting arrested. This is not Thoreau getting arrested.
Norm Murdock [:This is not Dred Scott. This is not an escaped slave. This is an illegal immigrant who has committed or is being, alleged to have committed violent acts, and ICE is there to arrest him. And And it's not they have the right
Steve Palmer [:to do that. It's not a brown shirt law. This the law was in place before the enforcement. Oh, yeah. So it's not an ex post facto setting. And so it's not like the judge saying, look, you got these henchmen out there ready to enforce some unconstitutional law that they're making up as we go, so I'm gonna help you not do that. That then you might have some argument. But this is a law that was in place.
Steve Palmer [:They're in the country unlawfully. There is no dispute about it.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:The and I guess the ICE agents had or the federal agents, I don't know if they're ICE or not, but they had followed the, this came we I think we talked about this a few weeks ago.
Norm Murdock [:Somewhere at least FBI.
Steve Palmer [:There was a there was a protocol that been put in place. Like, you can't just arrest people in a courtroom because that's disturbing things. And, you know, there's some there's some sense to that. Sure. So they followed all the protocol. They had notified all the right people.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And by the very notification, by the very protocol that they followed, this judge knew it was coming and then helped them escape. This is this is
Norm Murdock [:And do you know why? Felonies.
Steve Palmer [:And do you I don't think they only got charged with obstruction, but this is a felony.
Norm Murdock [:Well, Steve knows why. Brett knows why. But for our our our viewers and listeners, the reason that they had to try to arrest him, you know, at the hearing, right, after the hearing, is because Wisconsin being a, you know, a a shelter state, will not they do not allow their local police to coordinate with ICE. They actually have a law preventing like, here in Columbus, we had the FOP in here. They're not allowed to contact ICE, the police officer. Right? It's not allowed to contact ICE and say, hey. I have one of your people here. So Wisconsin, the whole state's like that.
Norm Murdock [:And so rather than arresting him in the police station, right where they know he's disarmed, they know he could even be cuffed before they take him, and everybody's much safer, they're forced to go to things like this court hearing. And that's where the feds have to try to make the arrest because they're not allowed under Wisconsin current policy to go to the police station, which already had him arrested. That's how crazy this whole thing is,
Brett Johnson [:is
Norm Murdock [:that you're not allowed to coordinate between the feds and the state. And, you know, some states do allow that and some states don't. Yep. Yeah. So it's actually introduces a a dangerous element. Like, you know, when the FBI is chasing this guy out the out the courthouse But, I mean, they, at that point, don't know if he's armed or not. They don't they he could run into traffic. They may have to run
Steve Palmer [:into traffic.
Norm Murdock [:It's all chaotic. Look.
Steve Palmer [:You bring up a great point. So it's not just that this judge helped the guy evade ICE. They create the judge created a situation later that the system is designed to prevent. You know, we don't want we don't want, like, dirty, hairy No. Shootouts in the middle of the road. And and, you know, this is and think about what it's encouraging to. Like, and I take note look. I I do have a position on it, but I can I can make this point? I can make this case without taking a position on the immigration, policies of Donald Trump.
Steve Palmer [:I don't care. They are in place, and it is what it is. And I but the judge has to the judge still has to follow the law like it or not. You have to do that. You cannot take you cannot just rewrite this, per your own political bent. And, you know, the the the people are applauding this and saying, you know, yeah, rah rah rah rah.
Norm Murdock [:It's like the Luigi Manchion thing.
Steve Palmer [:If you permit this Yeah. Where does it stop?
Norm Murdock [:Well, apparently, you can murder people if you don't like them.
Steve Palmer [:Well You know? I mean Look. That's not true. But the the the
Norm Murdock [:Well, the Luigi fans say
Steve Palmer [:say The the Luigi fans sell. They're mentally talented. Also getting prosecuted. So look. I mean, we gotta at least give that a fair assessment. It's not like he's getting away with it. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:But, you know, there's a whole idea. That that you'd like, if you feel morally superior, that you're above the law. I saw this mantra of Democrats, you know, like, it was, like, two minutes long of people from Pelosi to Hillary Clinton saying, no one is above the law. And, of course, they're saying that about Trump. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Of course. Right.
Norm Murdock [:Well, what about these judges? The one in New Mexico, the one in Wisconsin.
Steve Palmer [:It is this is reprehensible in every way to me is look. The judge has to follow law. And I've had this happen where the judge will interpret a law differently than I think. Sure. And almost to the point where I'm like, listen. You're you're close. Yeah. Right.
Steve Palmer [:You're close. Yeah. But at least we have an argument. Yeah. Right. Fair enough.
Norm Murdock [:And, you know, you'll appeal it if you need
Steve Palmer [:I'll appeal it. Yeah. And I'll go to jail and be held. I mean, I mean, that's never happened to me. But, you know, lawyers lawyers will have this kind of defense lawyers are notorious for this, have this kind of protest. In fact, in the gang case down Atlanta a few last summer maybe, one of the lawyers went to jail because the judge was saying, you have to tell me how you learned about how I, the judge Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Found
Steve Palmer [:out this information that I shouldn't have found out without you knowing. I mean, it's circular. And the the lawyer says, look. I'm not telling you that. Judge is fine. Go to jail Yeah. And contempt. Fair enough.
Steve Palmer [:But that's the process working.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:So this judge could say, listen, mister defendant. I don't agree with this, but there are ICE officers out there. Deputies escort him out Yeah. And we'll do this peacefully.
Norm Murdock [:Peacefully.
Steve Palmer [:And if if if I have a legal basis to challenge this, I will be on your side, mister defendant, but I don't right now. Yeah. You have to go through this. Yeah. You know, fair enough. Make a speaking objection about it. Make a record about it. Use your platform if you will.
Steve Palmer [:And I might even have some beef with that, but at least it's not a crime.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:You know? And That's right.
Brett Johnson [:And no one gets endangered because of the situation.
Steve Palmer [:Yep. And there's no dangerous done peacefully. And you're telling the people, I don't agree with this law, but the law is important, and we have to follow it. Right. And that's what it is. And, you know, by by not doing that, this judge has encouraged I think you're you got you made a good point, the Mangione thing. It they've encouraged such behavior. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:It's okay to commit look. I have another show called Lawyer Talk. Check it out. Lawyertalkpodcast.com. But I had a comment, and and Brett was part of this. And somebody was sort of, like, chastising me a little bit about because I said, look. I I think I was I was saying I was talking about the factual guilt of Mangione.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. He's on camera.
Steve Palmer [:And Jesus. And this this this commenter said something to the effect that I can't believe this. I'm turning you off because, you know, as even as lawyers don't know innocent until proven guilty. You know, I can make a factual distinction or or Right. A very logical distinction. Right. I have plenty of clients who are guilty as the day is long. Right.
Steve Palmer [:And unlike that commenter, I stand up with them in a courtroom and defend them anyway.
Norm Murdock [:That is the process. You are doing your duty. They deserve a vigorous defense even if they're flat guilty.
Steve Palmer [:Now let me give you the other side. Couple weeks ago, I was out in one of the counties out east defending somebody who was charged with a heinous crime who did not, and I would say it out loud, my opinion did not get a fair trial. And the social comments were outrageous.
Norm Murdock [:I'm sure.
Steve Palmer [:Outrageous. Hang this guy. Yeah. String him up. Even deputies at the jail Yeah. Were on their social media going after this guy. Yeah. And so I invite all the commenters, you know, have it both ways, but not just you know, you you can't have it one way.
Steve Palmer [:You gotta have it both ways. If I'm and I do. I make a very, very, bright line distinction between whether I think somebody's guilty and whether I will defend them.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. You know, and that's disturbing, I guess, kind of a rabbit hole here, but that's disturbing that you have, the police there at the court doing posting on social about their thoughts on a case.
Steve Palmer [:Well, let me
Norm Murdock [:That's bothersome. Very bothersome.
Brett Johnson [:They're allowed to have an opinion. I'm not saying they're not, but to
Steve Palmer [:It was a guardian jail. It was a it was a corrections officer at the local area. Now I will say this, and and if they're listening, then maybe they are. Yeah. We're so widespread. Worlds worldwide. The the jail or the courtroom deputies, phenomenal to work with.
Norm Murdock [:Well, they know better.
Steve Palmer [:Made if they had an opinion, did not voice it, they treated me with the utmost respect, they treated the other side with the utmost respect. I tip my hat that I'm not even wearing to you. But but you're making a good point. It's like the the if the government entities are are compromised That's right. What do we have? We have a compromised judge. And I, again, I don't have a problem with somebody saying, look. I don't agree with this law. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:But I have to enforce it. Yeah. Right. Right.
Norm Murdock [:Fair enough. It's okay. Yeah. It's alright.
Steve Palmer [:I do it every day.
Norm Murdock [:She is also a politician who's elected as a judge, and I don't have any problem with her making a little side bench speech like that. Go ahead. Speak your mind. Whatever.
Steve Palmer [:May disagree, and I might say, what a bunch of nonsense.
Norm Murdock [:Because it's after the hearing. You know? Her hearing's over, and now she wants to make a little comment about, let's have some order here in the court. Let's peacefully transition you to the custody of, I don't
Steve Palmer [:agree with this, but this is the state of the law. Yeah. I I encourage all my voters, the constituents out there, the gen whoever you are Right. Change it. Yeah. Right.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Exactly. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, you already have this policy of asylum. So, you know, the the local police are not allowed to coordinate with the feds, and this is the only way the feds can get the guy.
Steve Palmer [:Right. And and look, you know, the you hear this term thrown, I think, way too loosely, threat to democracy.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, come on. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:The threat to democracy is not the feds waiting out there to make this arrest. It's the judge not following the law and using the democratic process to she can use her platform to change the law if that's what she wants Yeah. Right. Or try to.
Norm Murdock [:Sure.
Steve Palmer [:But not by not through her own edict. No. Not through her own edict. Right. So you know what? I mean, it it's, and and once that breaks down, where does it end? I mean, we've talked about this before. It's like our founders, like, there's certain things we never really had to worry about, and now we're worrying about them on both sides.
Norm Murdock [:Right. It's crazy.
Steve Palmer [:You know, we can't do things for the cause, just because.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Mhmm. So Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Anyway, that's the threat to democracy. That's my insurance. That's my soapbox. I'm off it, hopefully, for the rest of the other
Norm Murdock [:thing. Well, you previewed, an interesting nonpolitical story. I think so interesting about consumer tendencies and and where I think the market is. As we all know, the cost of brand new trucks is just outrageous. Mhmm. Like, it's crazy. You especially the EV ones. I think that, for example, the Hummer, SUV, EV, that thing weighs five over five tons.
Steve Palmer [:We're talking, like, 14,000 pounds or 12,000 pounds. Something.
Norm Murdock [:It's it's so outrageous. Like, you pull that in your driveway, it's probably gonna crack the concrete.
Brett Johnson [:You don't have your
Steve Palmer [:You're probably right about that.
Norm Murdock [:That's crazy.
Steve Palmer [:That's a good point. What's it doing to the roads?
Norm Murdock [:Oh, god. Yeah. So we're and we're all paying for that. So at any rate, this company that Jeff Bezos of Amazon fame has been backing, although this truck is not on Amazon for sale yet, but they're like Hyundais. You can buy a Hyundai on Amazon. Like, right on it you go on Amazon, you can buy a Hyundai, and they'll deliver it to your house. This truck, they probably will do it. It's called the Slate or the name of the company is Slate, like, you know, a chalkboard slate.
Norm Murdock [:And it's a little mini pickup. It's two feet shorter than a Ford Ranger, for example. Has a a very small open bed, although they have a cap for it if you want it enclosed. It's $20,000 if you can get the EV credit that currently still exists, but may go away.
Steve Palmer [:So it's like a toy.
Norm Murdock [:I mean It's a toy.
Steve Palmer [:That's like a Polaris.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. It's a it's a toy, and it has no radio, no speakers. There's no dashboard control.
Steve Palmer [:Do with it?
Norm Murdock [:Yep. I I think what it'll be used for is urban deliveries. Like, you know, pizza plate, you know.
Brett Johnson [:From what I understand, you buy it and you it's the add ons. It's it's not even painted. It's our Well,
Norm Murdock [:which one? They
Brett Johnson [:wrap it. They wrap.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Well, but you
Brett Johnson [:can you can wrap.
Steve Palmer [:Well, that's like the model t, man.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. You
Steve Palmer [:can have any color you want as long as it's black.
Norm Murdock [:That's right. Right. That's right. So it's super basic steel wheels. Yeah. And the idea is, yes, you can accessorize the hell out of it. But the base model, is 20,000 with the with the EV credit, 27 if you don't call.
Steve Palmer [:How far does it go? What are they advertising?
Norm Murdock [:50 miles.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. For the basic, and then you can
Norm Murdock [:You cannot upgrade.
Brett Johnson [:Upgrade to another battery level to but that maybe 200 miles.
Steve Palmer [:No. I
Brett Johnson [:got It's it's definitely city grade. Yeah. I got it.
Norm Murdock [:For buzzing around the city.
Brett Johnson [:It is.
Steve Palmer [:I got a buddy looking at one of the Hummers. And Wow. You know, it it it's an an incredible looking thing. Yes. And and if it's as advertised, I mean, wow. Yeah. But you're talking a hundred grand.
Norm Murdock [:I know. Oh, geez. Hundred and 20, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Easy. And Yep. The Jeep Wagoneer or Grand Wagoneer, we talked about, that's a hundred grand.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. The the new, Lincoln Navigator, it's a hundred Well, even
Steve Palmer [:the gas ones are a hundred grand. I mean, they're Right.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Right. Yeah. The hybrids and the diesels, all of them.
Brett Johnson [:And and did you and did you see slate they're they're looking to make this in Indiana. Right?
Norm Murdock [:They make it in Michigan.
Brett Johnson [:Michigan. Okay. Yeah. That's not something it was in Indiana. It's made in Michigan.
Norm Murdock [:And it's, designed using, I'm sure, former big three engineers. I'm sure they hired, you know, people who Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Got laid off. It reminded me this is back in the seventies. I remember dad one time ordering a car that, you know, wasn't on the lot. Maybe lots at that time just didn't have a lot of cars in inventory, but I remember him ordering one.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Not to specs that was just like crazy specs.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:But they just didn't have certain models on the lot and he had we had wait two or three weeks and
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. That's still happening. You know,
Brett Johnson [:to a certain degree. But this reminded me of that going Yeah. We're going back to that. You you order the model. You want The model. Yeah. And the wide upgrade you want.
Norm Murdock [:Wind up windows You know? On this thing.
Steve Palmer [:Now I was told I was told you probably know this, Norm. I was told the old order in cars because I in muscle cars, we say, well, I ordered it with this, this, and this, and this. It's originally factory ordered like this.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And I was told that you're not really ordering it. You're just reserving one that's built that way. They're not they're not making it custom.
Brett Johnson [:Oh, okay.
Steve Palmer [:I could be wrong. What? And maybe there was a time they did make them custom. I don't know. And then, yeah, they get to the dealers, and the dealers had extra excess. That's how they had, like, the saline Mustang or the the Camaro. What was the Camaro?
Norm Murdock [:Saleen was a Mustang.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. But what was the Camaro version of that? The
Norm Murdock [:A z 28?
Brett Johnson [:No. No.
Steve Palmer [:No. No.
Norm Murdock [:No. Copo Camaros? Yeah. Central office processing order.
Steve Palmer [:Something like that. Yeah. Like a
Norm Murdock [:C O P
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Or the or the Shelby. You could like, those are accessorized later. Okay.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Interesting.
Steve Palmer [:This has nothing to do with anything.
Norm Murdock [:No. No. But it's it's And we could
Steve Palmer [:be quite ours.
Norm Murdock [:It's it's got to be quite wrong, but we're gonna say it anyway.
Steve Palmer [:Check us out.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Check us out.
Steve Palmer [:So maybe maybe because it's made Michigan, Toledo is number one.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, nice transition. The only thing the only thing I wanna say about this slate company is there is a big company in India called Mahindra.
Brett Johnson [:Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:And they make tractors and all kinds of stuff. And I have been waiting for somebody like Kia or Mahindra or somebody to make a mini pickup like this. And I'm so glad if it's gonna be made made in Michigan.
Steve Palmer [:Well, it'll be made
Brett Johnson [:in Michigan.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. It's pretty cool.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. So, yeah, you mentioned Toledo. So the Wall Street Journal came out yesterday with, its annual list of the 200 major markets and where they rank. In a weird, like, combination of factors, median home price, some sort of scaling based on increased desirability, and, somewhat temperate weather, which you could argue about Toledo having that. But at any rate, they ranked Toledo as number one of all the cities in America for, basically being a good bargain, place to buy a house. The median price in Toledo being 235,000. Houses on average last thirty seven days on the market, and prices in Toledo have gone up 18% over the last year. So it's indicating some sort of trend of people, you know, see seizing, opportunities in a in a otherwise kind of a depressed, you know, economically city, of 600,000 people, Toledo being a fairly large city, actually.
Brett Johnson [:And and it has a a university tied to it. Yes. And, usually, university towns have a a draw
Norm Murdock [:because they have what mud hens.
Steve Palmer [:I gotta tell you. Yeah. It just doesn't
Norm Murdock [:add up.
Steve Palmer [:Something's not adding up. It is. Something's not adding up.
Norm Murdock [:Crafted corruption, Steve says.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Something's not something's not adding up. My son goes to Bowling Green. I go I I had a case in the last couple years up in Toledo. And look, kudos to the federal court up there. That was treated very well. The judges were great. The prosecutors, the US Attorneys were great to work with.
Steve Palmer [:I mean, it was a it was a good experience. But as I drove through Toledo, it didn't look like a thriving metropolis. No. No. Right. And and
Norm Murdock [:It's struggling for sure. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:So I and I wonder. And doesn't I and I heard somewhere recently that Bowling Green was losing one of their I forget what the industry was, but something was there was there was an industry. Some big company was leaving Wood County.
Norm Murdock [:Not good.
Steve Palmer [:That's not good. Because there's not
Norm Murdock [:a lot up there, man.
Steve Palmer [:There's not a lot up there. So, look. I mean, I Yeah. Maybe it's just because you can get a good bargain.
Norm Murdock [:I I
Steve Palmer [:think that's all the
Norm Murdock [:other stuff. Think that's a bunch of
Brett Johnson [:There's some marketing going on.
Steve Palmer [:The the criteria is that you can buy a cheap house. Well, there's a reason you can buy a cheap house.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:If the housing is more expensive it doesn't always correlate. Like, for instance, I don't think that living in the most expensive place in the country necessarily garners you all the best things.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, no. Right. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:But living in the cheapest part of the country is also the same. Yeah. And somewhere in the middle, maybe, it's it's true. That look. There there's a level where, look, it costs more to live here, but you can make more to live here, and it sort of goes out. I don't I don't know if that's the case in Toledo or not.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. They, you know, they had a really deluxe harbor district going on about, you know, like, twenty five years ago, and it's gone now. And, you know, which is a shame. It was kinda like the Cleveland Flats area. Like like a
Steve Palmer [:park. I drove through there sort of half lost not too long ago, and it was it was weird.
Norm Murdock [:It is weird. Right. Like, out of nowhere, like, you're ghetto ghetto ghetto. All of a sudden, wow. Yeah. This looks like spring break in Fort Lauderdale, and then ghetto, ghetto, ghetto. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:But look. I mean, I I I hope Toledo's turning around. I think, you know, we had some other cities on there too, which is interesting. And they all have they all don't seem like the thriving metropolises in Ohio.
Norm Murdock [:So I have the The properties. Yeah. I do have the median, home price, in Dayton. It's 240. They're in the top 20 Wall Street. So is Youngstown, A Hundred And Eighty Five Thousand is the median. In Canton, Ohio, Massillon area, 240,000 median.
Brett Johnson [:Dayton's always been a head scratcher for me because Dayton is so well placed in the state if
Norm Murdock [:you know about it. Yes.
Steve Palmer [:Well, it was auto parts.
Brett Johnson [:It's really, really close to Cincinnati, really close to Columbus.
Norm Murdock [:Nashville Cash.
Steve Palmer [:Texas, Nashville. To be out of parks.
Brett Johnson [:Yellow Springs, they've got 75, 70
Norm Murdock [:Yes.
Brett Johnson [:They are like Columbus, set up really well for
Steve Palmer [:the drug corridor right from Michigan
Norm Murdock [:straight down
Brett Johnson [:to Pretty pretty decent.
Norm Murdock [:Pretty decent airport. Yeah. A lot of people from Columbus to get a better deal will drive to date Certainly. And fly out.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Exactly. And I got it. It's it's always interesting how that city just
Norm Murdock [:Air Force Base?
Brett Johnson [:Keep the Air Force Base
Norm Murdock [:Holy cow.
Brett Johnson [:For the time being.
Steve Palmer [:Oh, if you haven't gone to the Air Force Base Museum, it's it's awesome.
Brett Johnson [:Oh my gosh. And
Steve Palmer [:it's free.
Brett Johnson [:That's that's a two day that's a two day gig.
Steve Palmer [:That's a
Norm Murdock [:two day yeah. Seriously.
Brett Johnson [:So If you wanna take your time, it's gonna take two days. And it's close
Norm Murdock [:to Cincinnati, Dayton. Right. So that, like, if you wanna go see the Reds or the Bengals or whatever, you can see pro sports Right. 50 miles
Steve Palmer [:away from might say, it's great in Dayton. So I, I went to I had as I had a case out there recently, and I went to the Pine Club, the restaurant afterwards to sort of celebrate being done with it. Classic old school steakhouse in Boston.
Brett Johnson [:I've had a client that talked about
Norm Murdock [:that once. Yeah. Is that in that hip district?
Steve Palmer [:It's in sort of near the yeah. Near the you go past the hospital, and then it's in, like, this sort of nice revitalized district, maybe close to university, I think. But a beautiful area. It was neat, and it's old school, man. It's like the old school mobster. And and right in right near our booth mobster. Right near our booth was a little plaque where, George h Bush, I think, sat and had dinner at one point there. But, don't bring American Express.
Steve Palmer [:Don't even bring your Visa. Don't bring your Discover. Don't bring anything but cash because they do not take anything but cash. Now you apparently, you can sign up online and get an account. Okay.
Norm Murdock [:Okay.
Steve Palmer [:I don't know what that's all about. I didn't do that. I brought cash. Yeah. But it is, you know, you bring your cash.
Brett Johnson [:And it has been that way all the time, or they just transition into that knowing
Steve Palmer [:I happened to that's interesting. When I was I was trying to make reservations. Don't do that because they don't have that either. You show up and you get served when you're when it's your time. So it's not
Norm Murdock [:Not far from Dayton is South Lebanon, Ohio, and you can go to the Lamb, which originally George Washington had a meal at. So they probably have a little plaque. Not maybe not as great as George Bush, but, you
Steve Palmer [:know, George Washington, Washington, Washington, GWR.
Brett Johnson [:You know, yes. I agree.
Steve Palmer [:Bring him to GWR. This is riveting news. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:So other things in Ohio. Yesterday no. Yeah. No. It was Tuesday. Governor DeWine and the Ohio Tech Tax Credit Authority announced $835,000,000, if you will, taxpayer investment, like we just did in Intel and that blew up, in six companies in order to create a total of 699 jobs. And what it is, it's a seven year deal for each of these six companies of between 1.21.8%, income tax credit, which adds up to 835,000,000 for all six. And that is I mean, to to give this deal is a little tighter because they do audit the results of whether the jobs are created and for how long.
Norm Murdock [:But my basic problem with this is, okay, it's a little better than the intel thing, but it's, again, the government picking winners and losers. So, like, these six companies, what they are, for example, is a trucking company. One is a Swiss owned company that does refrigeration for pharmaceuticals. One is a building materials manufacturing company. One is Kimberly Clark that makes, you know, everything from toilet paper to tampons and and whatever. One is an architectural firm that's leasing additional space. So those are examples of, you know, these companies. And what I would say is, like, okay.
Norm Murdock [:These companies had somebody on the ball to write for this grant and to get into this program, but what if you're a mom and pop and you don't have the extra employee help or a CPA, you know, or somebody to to do this for you? It just it bothers me that a trucking company is gonna get some kind of treatment that all the other trucking companies in Ohio are not gonna get. And, like, how is that fair? Yeah. Like and how is that a good use? So you and I are subsidizing this deal because, obviously, our income taxes will have to make up for the 835,000,000, which is almost a billion, right, that is being spent on these six companies in effect because we're not gonna collect the tax from them. So in effect, we're making up the difference with our taxes. Yeah. How's that right?
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. It's not right. It's not right.
Brett Johnson [:It's not right.
Steve Palmer [:It's all just political theater.
Norm Murdock [:It's all this.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Look good. Look somebody's paying look. There's a certain amount to be paid, generally speaking. Yeah. So if they're gonna collect it somehow, somewhere, someway, whether they call it this or call it that. Somebody's paying for everything.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:There is no free lunch.
Steve Palmer [:I guess it
Brett Johnson [:I guess it comes back to question, what is the government's role in our lives?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Is this their role?
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. To help bring in business?
Norm Murdock [:I don't need my calculator. I I I you know, if it's
Brett Johnson [:it's just a general question of us to think about. What what's what do we want them to do?
Norm Murdock [:Well, Brett, even even like, if you do the math, like, take 699 jobs, divide that into 835,000,000, and then divide that by seven so you get the per year amount. It it just can't be worth it to me.
Steve Palmer [:Like Well, look. The the government has tried
Norm Murdock [:Even as a purchase.
Steve Palmer [:Right? Tried. You you have such a great point there, Brett. Because the government has tried and tried and tried to manipulate the invisible hand in some way, shape, or form
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:By putting its thumb on the scale.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And it never works. It doesn't work. No. It always creates a disruption in the force. Yeah. Right? So there's this like, the the four it it works. I mean, ironically, as I read George Washington's inaugural address, here's what he says. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand, which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of The United States, every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of prevent providential agency.
Steve Palmer [:I mean, he's saying, look, I think he's talking about something other than the invisible hand of of, economics. But the invisible hand, like, the market works, and you can't you can't force it. Right. And and usually, there there's always a consequence to that.
Norm Murdock [:Well, when when my dad famously I talk about my dad too much. I can't help it. But when my dad was in the state legislature, famously, governor Rhodes, you know, did the big deal with Honda
Steve Palmer [:Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:To bring them. Right? And immediately, Ford, GM, and Chrysler said, well, what about me? Right? I mean, immediately, when Honda got all the large s, the companies that were already in Ohio building cars or making parts for cars were like, well, what about me?
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. You can't give this to that or not to me. You got an equal protection pro and it's like, listen. And this is this is what we're fighting something similar in this DEI front right now, where we wanna give to some but not others. Yeah. And it's those distinctions. You can always come up with a reason that your group, your class, the people you champion should get it. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:But so can the other side. Right. And and then the person doling it out has a problem.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And then if you dole it out equally to everybody, well, then ever since everybody has it, it's no advantage at all. So it's, you know, just stay out.
Norm Murdock [:Well, speaking of DEI, also in Ohio, down in Athens, Ohio University is, going to comply with the DEI, law passed in senate bill one and also the Trump order about, the creditors. You know, the the people who certify that a university is accredited, he ordered them to stop applying DEI requirements. So forthwith, other than the military, assistance offices, all of the, you know, like the women's studies and the transgender studies and the the gay student, offices and all of this DEI stuff at Ohio University, which is probably the most liberal of all the state universities in Ohio down in, Appalachian country. The, I I think the name of the president is, a mister Chavez, and he announced, yeah. We're we're closing all that down. We're complying. So Good.
Steve Palmer [:Good. Right?
Norm Murdock [:Because as the Harvard case proved to the US Supreme Court, Asian students and white students, whether they're male or female, are just as entitled to the opportunities as anybody else of a different color. Like, that's how can you know, it's the old Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas thing, where how can you correct racial intolerance by injecting racial intolerance?
Steve Palmer [:You can't. Right? It's it's another version of of tipping the scales. You can't do it. And, you know, that there's an ebb and flow to this and hope thank thankfully, it's ebbing.
Norm Murdock [:Well, we gave fifty years of affirmative action. Like, when is enough enough? Right? Like like, we did that. That is a historical fact. Many peep some people say Clarence Thomas, for example, got and Obama got a hand up through affirmative action. They probably did. Okay? But any I mean, Obama got elected president by an overwhelming majority of white voters. Mhmm. Like, so when is racial bias? When are we gonna finally say
Steve Palmer [:Well, look. For forget about, not forget about that, but think of it from a different angle. There's I think anybody would agree that there's racism in this country. There's racism in all of human affairs. It's always been that way.
Norm Murdock [:And always will be.
Steve Palmer [:And so when people say, well, when I when I argue with people, I I even fall into this trap that I'm gonna lay out here in a second, which is people say, yeah. But there's still racist people, and there's still this, there's still that. But the the position that I take is not to disagree with that. Right. It is to say or ask rather, what is the government gonna do about it?
Norm Murdock [:That's exactly right.
Steve Palmer [:And what power are you gonna give the government to try to fix this? Right. And since when in the course of human events throughout history of time has the government been able to control how I think or anybody else thinks?
Norm Murdock [:Well, Steve, to answer your question. Right? Mhmm. Cro Magnon, human remains have been found intermixed with Neanderthal, and they they fought each other. And clearly, it was a race war.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, it's been going on for
Steve Palmer [:Well, something was going on. So look Yeah. But the government can't stop it. No. It can't stop it. So, like, this is this is the flaw in the logic from my perspective. And you there are people who might disagree with me, but you can give the government all the power in the world. So I I remember a law I think it was one of the Ivy law professors from a law school.
Norm Murdock [:Yes.
Steve Palmer [:Or from an Ivy League law school was saying, look. This constitution, the first amendment, this is all getting in the way because with this process, we don't we we don't have enough power to fix racism, global warming. Right. You know, all the other inequities, and they had a whole laundry list. And and the They create utopia. Premise was so absurd. Yeah. One, that all those problems existed.
Steve Palmer [:So, you know, they certainly didn't exist on the level that this guy was was advocating. So whether they exist or not, maybe. Yeah. Two, he could fix it.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. That's Right. That's the absurdity.
Steve Palmer [:If only he if only you give get or ordain these people with all the power, they're gonna fix it somehow.
Norm Murdock [:Give me a free hand. I'll fix this.
Steve Palmer [:I'll fix it. I'll fix global warming. It's like what and how?
Brett Johnson [:Well, and it it stops the converse to me, my perspective, it stops the conversation. And two questions to be asked is that, okay, it's not what's wrong with you as asking a racist person. What's wrong with you? You're racist. It's like, what happened to you Mhmm. To become racist? For sure. That's the question.
Norm Murdock [:And most most people are taught it.
Brett Johnson [:Right. And this overreaching powerful hand of government law stops us from having this conversation.
Steve Palmer [:You don't have the you're in fact, it it squelches it. You're right. It stops in its tracks. I mean, there's not it's almost racist to have that conversation by their measures.
Brett Johnson [:And and and I and I got to be a part of a a an interview with a a person who was in the e d e who is in the d e I space for the past twenty years. And it's interesting from her perspective and, again, I have to go with what she says is how DEI started and now where it is today.
Steve Palmer [:It's totally changed. It's totally changed.
Brett Johnson [:Because she said initially, DEI twenty I twenty odd years ago. DEI. It wasn't. No. But it but it's that welcoming and understanding everybody has problems.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:And how can you work with them in your workplace?
Steve Palmer [:Right.
Brett Johnson [:And it could be handicap. Yeah. It could be anything. You know, that sort of thing, orphaned or I I don't whatever you wanna Absolutely. The problem and recognizing them and then blocking them into the workspace and help them do the best job that they can.
Norm Murdock [:Hearing impaired, all kinds Exactly.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Blind. Whatever it might be. Exactly. And those are the extremes
Norm Murdock [:to a certain
Brett Johnson [:degree. Right. But now we've turned it in. DEI has turned into this weaponized. You will learn that you have to incorporate these people in. It's like Or you're about
Steve Palmer [:to go back because you're born of a certain skin. Exactly. Or you don't even know how bad you are because you can't see the water you're swimming in.
Norm Murdock [:Right. So what I'm concerned about Brett and I had a really interesting discussion a couple weeks ago. And what I am concerned about is, like, the new DEI, and I hope it doesn't mutate into this, and we talked about the campus. So I I hate these speech codes on campus. I just I it's just a it's poison. And what I'm afraid of is in its zeal to protect, Jewish students whom I want to be protected. They're absolutely against any violence or threats of violence. But I am concerned on the campus of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, these liberal places that are so pro Hamas and pro Palestine.
Norm Murdock [:You know, I'm I'm concerned that the, the Trump kind of effect, will prevent the people from expressing, if they wish, like, even though I find it detestable for them to express their hatred of Jews. If that's what they wanna talk about They
Steve Palmer [:should be able to.
Norm Murdock [:They should be able to. Or Now do I like it? No. I don't.
Steve Palmer [:This is why.
Norm Murdock [:But they should be able to be free. Now not not necessarily illegal immigrants because they're stirring
Steve Palmer [:up stuff. Look. There there there's always a limit.
Norm Murdock [:There's a limit.
Steve Palmer [:Right. But if if an anti Semitic group Semitic group Applies for a permit. Gets a permit And parades. Wants to parade around and and talk about how horrible and called Jews termites and all the tropes that they use.
Norm Murdock [:The KKK.
Steve Palmer [:The KKK. Like, they have a right to do it.
Norm Murdock [:They have a right to do that.
Steve Palmer [:Just like I have a right to do the opposite.
Norm Murdock [:And I'm concerned that, like, when when the White House talks about taking away I mean, Harvard shouldn't be getting $9,000,000,000. But when when they talk about talk about taking disenfranchising them from doing business with the federal government because people are speaking horrible things on campus. Suppressing speech is suppressing speech is suppressing speech. That's right. And I am concerned about that. Like, they should not go too far with us.
Steve Palmer [:That's what I'm talking about. The backlash. And look, on I guess, related to DEI and some of these measures is, I think, it's worth at least talking a little bit about the legalities of I think there's an executive order Trump signed, or at least is about to sign, that has eliminated or will eliminate what what the law calls disparate impact, proof Yes. Of discrimination. Yeah. So disparate like, if if I'm discriminating Which
Norm Murdock [:LBJ originally did.
Steve Palmer [:Well, it came it it came on the heels of title seven. So, like, you I think.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. 1968, I think.
Steve Palmer [:You have, if I discriminate if I'm the government, because I'm we'll take it out of private for now, and title seven will apply to private. But let's just let's just say somebody is discriminating against an employee. And I say, I don't hire black people. I don't hire Jewish people. I don't hire, norms of the world because I don't like race car drivers. Whatever it is, if it's a protected class, then that's obvious because I have said it out loud. Right. But then it gets it gets dicey.
Steve Palmer [:The law created this disparate impact type of evidence that would go through were like, a statistical analysis of how a policy at my business could impact somebody of a protected class Yeah. Differently. And the idea was to to protect against me masquerading or under the guise of a policy creating racist policies. So Yeah. I could say, look. I only hire people from this neighborhood. Well, we only we know that there are only white people in that neighborhood and no black people in that neighborhood.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:So that's that's that would be, like, that's a disparate impact.
Norm Murdock [:So we're gonna look into your actions and impute an intention.
Steve Palmer [:An intent. And sometimes you can. Sometimes you can't. Yeah. But like all these things, it was designed the design of it or the or the stated purpose of it, is not necessarily what happened. So now you have disparate impact. So you you're creating racism and discrimination where it doesn't exist. Right.
Steve Palmer [:And, you know, these means of proof get real squirrely and dicey, and and it it the lawyers go crazy over it. So I look. Good, bad, or ugly, I think there's gonna be an executive order or has been an executive order eliminating that. Now what I don't know is whether Trump has the authority as an executive to sign an order getting rid of that.
Norm Murdock [:Well, the
Steve Palmer [:So Congress is gonna act.
Norm Murdock [:LBJ signed it to bring it in.
Steve Palmer [:I don't know if he signed it as an executive order or if he signed it as a as a Fair enough. Yeah. As a congressional act. So I I I don't know enough about it, but it's interesting. You know, it it shows you the backlash that's coming.
Norm Murdock [:So so if you wanna hire people on the basis of merit, which is not only moral, but it's also the smart business thing. Right? Like, I don't care if somebody's purple, if they're a woman, if they're a trans, if they're gay. If they are the best mathematician and I'm running, a nuclear power plant and I'm hiring engineers Mhmm. I'm hiring the best based on merit. I could care less who they sleep with or what color they are.
Steve Palmer [:Then then, like, you know, it's gone so far as to, like, the cake bakers. And I used I used to have this debate upstairs in the law practice. Not that I did it. But let's just say I would tell like, in internally, we would have these discussions to base on the right word. Be like, should the government be able to prevent me from saying outwardly, I don't represent people of a certain race. I don't represent gay people. I don't represent black people. I only represent white Aryans with German heritage.
Norm Murdock [:Okay.
Steve Palmer [:I am a I am a Nazi. You know, I only represent those people.
Norm Murdock [:I'm a Nazi lawyer.
Steve Palmer [:I'm a Nazi lawyer. That's all I do. Or you could flip it around. I only represent Jews. I only represent people of a certain and, you know, they're like, a knee jerk from the public is generally, yeah, that you shouldn't be able to do that.
Norm Murdock [:Right. And then
Steve Palmer [:you but you start to think, like, alright. I'm providing a service. Do you think that if the government says I have to do it, one, that I will comply? And two, if I do comply, you think they're getting the same service that I would give everybody else?
Norm Murdock [:Exactly.
Steve Palmer [:I mean, isn't that dangerous? Think think of these unintended consequences of it.
Norm Murdock [:Is. Right.
Steve Palmer [:And and it just shows, like, what sounds good doesn't always, it doesn't always, result in good.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:When it's, you know, applied. And
Brett Johnson [:then there are multiple layers there too. So, okay, you're forcing me to serve this clientele. Well, that clientele is gonna pay more.
Steve Palmer [:Right. Or what if they So so
Brett Johnson [:then another law comes to
Norm Murdock [:a place
Steve Palmer [:like you have to
Brett Johnson [:you have to charge them the same. Then another piece
Steve Palmer [:of the work
Brett Johnson [:is just And then how
Steve Palmer [:do you how do you decide since you, Brett, are of a certain skin color and you norm or of a certain ethnic origin, but I charge you more for seemingly the same case. But maybe maybe there's a nuance there that maybe you're a bigger pain in
Brett Johnson [:the ass. Exactly.
Steve Palmer [:And and you bug me more, so I charge you more. You take more of my time, in other words. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Right. But yeah.
Steve Palmer [:But you you take more of my time. Right. So you have to pay more. But if you look at the disparate impact of that, then it looks discriminatory.
Norm Murdock [:Sure it does.
Steve Palmer [:Or if if I just say, look, I'm not gonna represent the the other the the solution is obvious to me. If I'm not gonna represent people of a certain color, well, then I, another enterprising young lawyer, I'm gonna look at that and say, I'm gonna lease space right next door to this asshole, and I'm gonna take all comers.
Brett Johnson [:Why do you think car dealerships place each other right next to each other? Because they're shopping.
Steve Palmer [:This idiot is gonna cut out a a business source of clientele because he's a racist lunatic. Fine. I'll take it. And he'll have ads.
Norm Murdock [:Or or if
Steve Palmer [:they have out of existence.
Norm Murdock [:Or if they have, like, a legitimate, and I don't mean legitimate to you, but legitimate to them. So if they have sincere religious beliefs about, like, gay marriage. Right? And so the cake maker doesn't wanna make gay marriage cakes. Right. That's an opportunity for a gay marriage cake maker to go into that. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And look. So and it makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense. And lawyers have like, there's, like, a I've had a conflict of interest emerge in my practice recently. Not my practice, but I was analyzing a case. And Yeah. You know, a a lawyer had an interest in the case.
Norm Murdock [:Okay. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:A personal interest in the case out or in, in something going on in the case outside the representation. I won't go into detail, but outside the representation. Okay. We had an ethics expert come in, and he said, look. It's a two step analysis. The first thing we have to do as lawyers is assess how does this impact my ability to represent this guy. And if I think that it has any impact at all, then I have to bail. I can't do it.
Steve Palmer [:Okay. Even if I think it doesn't have any impact, I have to notify my client and get way and get a waiver written in writing and get a waiver. So look. I mean, if you're gonna say that I have to represent gay people as a lawyer who and I don't agree with that lifestyle Yeah. Then I'm not gonna I will do that analysis, but I'm not gonna tell you. And I'm you know, it's like, you you know, you're gonna you're gonna squelch it. You're gonna drive it underground. But if you create the competition, you're gonna the the logical foul is I think I've talked to him last week even.
Steve Palmer [:It's called reductio ad absurdum. You reduce the logic to its to its own absurdity. It's stupid. Yeah. It's dumb.
Norm Murdock [:You're driving away business.
Steve Palmer [:I'll represent Mangione. I'll represent Norm. I'll represent Brett. I'll represent somebody innocent. I'll represent somebody guilty. Yeah. And if I can't, I won't. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:So, you know, there was a time. I I love dogs. If somebody's gonna if, like, animal cruelty can't like, I get sort of squirrelly about it.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. So
Steve Palmer [:like it.
Norm Murdock [:Probably not take that kind of a case.
Steve Palmer [:Sometimes I've had to say, look, man. I'm not your guy.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Right.
Steve Palmer [:Go over here.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:And I
Steve Palmer [:That's what you would want.
Norm Murdock [:And that's Right. Yes. Right.
Brett Johnson [:You would
Steve Palmer [:want it. You're discouraging
Norm Murdock [:it. And we were speaking about judges earlier, and like Steve talks about lawyers, judges also recuse themselves.
Steve Palmer [:Yep.
Norm Murdock [:You know, if they happen to have a relationship with one of the parties and
Steve Palmer [:They gotta get out. Right? Yeah. So but if if you're not gonna permit that kind of thing, then you're not gonna encourage people to disclose those kind of problems. And it it doesn't change the problem. It just drives underground.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:So look. We we're getting towards the hour. We should probably talk about, how many weeks it's been, how many days it's been, how many hours it's been, because in the end of the day, it's still one hundred days of Donald Trump. And this will be a good segue into things that we like
Brett Johnson [:to do. Official hundred day?
Norm Murdock [:It was yesterday.
Brett Johnson [:It was yesterday. Okay.
Steve Palmer [:I missed it. One hundred days. Right? So
Norm Murdock [:how about that? They actually put out a video that the White House did. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Good for them. Like a little movie.
Steve Palmer [:It's gotten so
Norm Murdock [:It's all production.
Steve Palmer [:It's just
Norm Murdock [:gotten so foolish.
Steve Palmer [:Everything's just gotten foolish. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Well, did you see where they put up all the posters of the illegal immigrants that, were wanted for violent crimes? They put them all over the White House lawn so that even when CNN or MSNBC, which, you know, they all hate Trump, when the reporters are doing White House like updates, all these big posters are in the background.
Steve Palmer [:It's just and I guess Trump, as Trump don't, like, put up signs
Norm Murdock [:these people so badly. I mean, they he's killing them. Like, he he hasn't gone to a White House correspondent's dinner ever. And it's like, I'm not gonna give you me so you could stick your spears at my side.
Steve Palmer [:Yet he does it day in and day out. I mean, it's like, he never gets enough credit, I think, for this. Like him or hate him. He never gets enough credit for saying, look. I'm here every day for a press conference. Ask me whatever the hell you want. Right. And you may not like my answers, but I'm maybe it's not every day, but Mhmm.
Steve Palmer [:Like, after four years of Biden who never had a press conference
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. This guy does two hours every year.
Steve Palmer [:He's signing orders saying, here, what do you think of that? Who
Norm Murdock [:think of that?
Steve Palmer [:Pretty this is the most this is the most bestest possible greatest order of all time.
Norm Murdock [:Back there. That's fake news. You're fake news. Like, he he he goes into these debates with people right to them.
Steve Palmer [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:It's unreal.
Steve Palmer [:So love it or hate it, it's at least interesting.
Norm Murdock [:It's true. So okay. So I think we do, good things, bad things about his hundred days. Yeah. I think that's a good idea, Steve. So I will just say the one thing because I have so many. The one thing that just blows me away is at the peak of Biden, there were 300,000, like, 10,000 a day. 300,000 a month illegals either got aways or released into the country given a hearing date that they'll never show up for.
Norm Murdock [:Right? Under Trump last month, it was nine people. Mhmm. Nine people. Illegals were released into the country and given a date Yeah. As as opposed to 300,000.
Steve Palmer [:Well, and then how many people crossing? I mean, look. It's it's
Norm Murdock [:That's unbelievable. And and Biden the whole time was saying I
Steve Palmer [:can't do it. I don't
Norm Murdock [:have power. I don't have power from
Steve Palmer [:It's a Republican because they were they blocked my bill. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:There was no bill needed. There was just a new president, but that was Well,
Steve Palmer [:then Trump was right about that. So yeah. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. So that's my good thing. My bad thing is, that under the under the tariff thing oh, it's kind of a good thing. But, like, all of the Kroger like, people don't read the label. But if you read the label on all of Kroger's produce, canned produce, under the Kroger label, all of it, every bit of it, whether it's mandarin oranges, peaches, pears, cherries, it's all from China. And because of the 45%, tariff, right, Those cans are now gonna greatly exceed American made canned produce like from Del Monte. So is that a bad thing? Hey. I'm willing to pay more for American safe produce than I am for Chinese produce.
Norm Murdock [:So that's that's my bad thing.
Brett Johnson [:Gotcha. Gotcha. I I guess, the only thing I'm gonna get good, good, or bad, but it's just a head scratcher to me is is is the number of executive orders that he did put put in place. But then his comment, and I caught this a couple of days ago, ten ten years ago, ten fifteen 10 2015, '20 '16, of just saying that when you've got the people in power, you don't need executive orders. Yeah. Look. So I guess I don't think it's just when you've got the power, you've got the votes, why are you doing executive vote? He was downplaying at that point in time. So why now is it the flavor of the day? It is.
Brett Johnson [:So it just I don't know. It just I agree. It's a head scratcher on me. And then and I guess also, we talked about this before we started recording too, the Canada scenario situation. It bothers me. Yeah. What do you mean? You know? And and I'm not a Canada lover. I don't mean that.
Brett Johnson [:But, I was always under the impression we had a pretty good neighbor, and and now we're kinda poking it. So but, you know, it it'll all come out.
Steve Palmer [:It'll all come out.
Brett Johnson [:It will. Because we're we're very we're very we we as we as people,
Norm Murdock [:we get along as politics. Right. You know? Trudeau was a fascist.
Steve Palmer [:His his the the new guy is the I forget his name.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, look at what they did to Jordan Peterson under Trudeau.
Brett Johnson [:But look at what
Norm Murdock [:they did to the truckers who were
Steve Palmer [:And they elected another guy.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Just a little bit uglier.
Norm Murdock [:So I
Steve Palmer [:don't know.
Norm Murdock [:Canada's been out of control for a long time. They're not a warm fuzzy place.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Well That's my opinion.
Steve Palmer [:I I I agree with you, Brett, on the executive orders. I think, you know, that's one of the reasons I led with with, GW, George Washington, because he he in his, inaugural speech emphasized the importance of the constitution and importance of Congress, etcetera. And that's not to blame that's not to say Trump is violating all of it. It's just our country has gotten to a place where Congress does nothing, essentially nothing. They have one big omnibus bill, which apparently Trump better pass that, by the way, I think.
Norm Murdock [:Well, it's not up to him to pass it.
Steve Palmer [:Was it a big, gorgeous, beautiful they better get that there. Anyway
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. May, I think, is the Yeah. They got it. Isn't it? Or is it June? There's a deadline. No.
Steve Palmer [:No. It's it's it's it, because they're hoping to get it done by, Labor Day, so it's gotta be in June. Yeah. But anyway, the like, we we've we've shifted to this world where executive orders and administrative agencies govern our country, and I I don't like it. And if we're gonna reset anything, let's do that. Now Trump did some of that, but that sort of petered out in, the Doge stuff has sort of petered out, and some of that's petered out.
Norm Murdock [:Because they have to pass laws. And Oh, the the Doge stuff will not be permanent. They gotta pass the laws.
Brett Johnson [:Is the Doge that goes away in another month. Right?
Steve Palmer [:Was it a hundred or four days or so?
Norm Murdock [:Well, the Doge department was actually created by Obama. So I think it will continue.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. It'll it was it was created for anyway. Yes.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah. So it was created to cut, costs.
Steve Palmer [:He had he had this IT thing going I get you. You.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And Trump just said, we'll just use that in
Norm Murdock [:terms of
Steve Palmer [:the Doze. Right? Yep. So I I think I I agree with you on the executive orders there too much, but it's not just Trump. I mean, this started Obama after his first term said in his first term said, look. I can't do anything. I have congress. I have to respect that. And then as soon as he realized he didn't have Congress anymore, he goes, well, I can do it with my phone and my pen.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And, you know, then it it sorts of this escalation of executive orders.
Norm Murdock [:Well, to Trump, do Obama and Biden, you have to use executive orders because they
Steve Palmer [:get stuff to It's a seesaw now.
Norm Murdock [:So so on Trump's very first day in office, 26 executive orders.
Steve Palmer [:And Biden did the same thing. And, you know, it's just this seesaw. So
Norm Murdock [:Right. We need to pass the laws. That's what it needs
Steve Palmer [:to be. Needs to go back. I think where they work, like, fourteen weeks a year. Yeah. It's ridiculous. So And they
Norm Murdock [:get paid pretty good jack now. Like, it's come along, gosh.
Steve Palmer [:And Yeah. Anyway, so that's, I'm with you on that. I guess my good with Trump is that, sort of like you, Norm, he has stopped immigration in its tracks. He he got off to a great start, I think, with some of the executive orders, rescinding a lot of this other stuff. And he also got off to a great start, I think, with this idea that, look, we are gonna we're gonna let the people govern this.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:You know, we're we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna have this transparency, etcetera. But then a terrorist came along. And I I think I think is how whether you agree with tariffs or don't agree with tariffs, it seems like Trump's sort of leaning towards this tariffs are gonna replace income tax, which I think is a complete there's no way that's ever gonna happen. No.
Norm Murdock [:It's not gonna happen.
Steve Palmer [:And it's not even real it's not even it's it's all I don't know what's called laughable, but it's it's like if I don't I don't know if he really believes that.
Norm Murdock [:But Well, the country did operate that way from It did. But the world has changed. Yeah. I understand that. But, I mean, the you know The world has changed. It's not it's as preposterous as saying we can buy Greenland. It is theoretically possible that, yes, the world has changed, but we always were a commerce country.
Steve Palmer [:We I I get it. But I I don't think we're gonna get rid of income tax
Norm Murdock [:No.
Steve Palmer [:I don't think replace it with tariffs. Right. And, we are on we're treading on I think Trump's treading on dangerous waters, not necessarily about the tariff policy, but for the lack of a tariff policy. He's not telling anybody what his goal is. So, look, like, to your point, Paul
Norm Murdock [:Oh, he's being very flexible.
Steve Palmer [:If he would have said to Canada, look, you guys are you guys are tariffing our farm products or our products. Get rid of that, or we'll tariff yours.
Norm Murdock [:Well, he did have that. Trudeau went down to Mar A Lago. They had a conversation. But they didn't do it.
Steve Palmer [:But in but it it just the the messaging has gotten out of whack. People don't understand it. And you can say, look. That's the market's problem or this or that. But Trump's not messaging it right either.
Norm Murdock [:I I would disagree about the flexibility. So just yesterday, for example, Brett and I were talking about how you were stacking tariffs unfairly on things that move across the border, say, 12 times to make a car between Detroit and Windsor, Ontario. And and the steel, aluminum, engines, rear axles, tires, stuff going back and forth across the border 11 times, and then theoretically getting tariffed each time it goes across. Sure.
Steve Palmer [:So get rid of them all.
Norm Murdock [:They got rid of that yesterday. So Trump, to his credit, is listening to people, and he is being flexible.
Steve Palmer [:I I look. I'm not disagreeing.
Norm Murdock [:Change that.
Steve Palmer [:So I think maybe two thing I think maybe two things are happening. One, Trump's messaging is, as it always is, is like this sort of superlative, a little bit bombastic, like, almost like I know and you don't. That's the first problem. The second problem is
Norm Murdock [:Well, you call it a problem. Scott Bessent, who's secretary of the treasury, calls it strategic strategic
Steve Palmer [:Maybe wishful thinking.
Norm Murdock [:But k. What I think it's working.
Steve Palmer [:Well, maybe. But the the second problem is
Norm Murdock [:Merck is moving from Ireland to The US to make drugs.
Steve Palmer [:The media is not interested in hearing any sort of coherent policy. They love making a chaos. So I think both those things are operating at the same time to create this chaos. Of course. So anyway, that that's my problem.
Norm Murdock [:I agree with that.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And I think looming out there, we have a China problem. And that is, I'm not saying Trump is screwing screwing that up or or doing well with it. I think it's just something that we need to keep our eyes on that because that's coming, and it's coming right quick as they say. So, anyway
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:That's what I love and hate.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah, dude. Alright.
Steve Palmer [:Awesome. Alright. So, anyway, comment that's
Norm Murdock [:Guys guys, I love I love the fact that we all think individually we're different people. And I I love this Yeah. I hate you for it. It is this is what makes our show beautiful.
Steve Palmer [:I learn something every day. I care every week.
Norm Murdock [:We are not rubber stampers. Like, when Steve says something and it's brilliant, I don't necessarily rubber stamp it nor does he do that with Brett or me. It's this is what we need is is open, you know, like, no what do they call it? On campus.
Brett Johnson [:A no judgment zone kind of deals to us.
Steve Palmer [:Just just This is this is freedom of speech.
Norm Murdock [:Right? Freedom of speech, man.
Brett Johnson [:And really go into the conversation knowing that you're not gonna change a person's mind.
Steve Palmer [:Right. No. You're learning something.
Brett Johnson [:That's not the purpose of the conversation. And I think a lot of conversations in my family, specifically, is that they don't wanna have the conversation because, well, you're not gonna change my mind. That is what they say. It's like, that's not why we're talking.
Norm Murdock [:That's very close minded.
Brett Johnson [:I don't want to change your mind.
Steve Palmer [:I wanna learn from you. I don't wanna change your mind.
Brett Johnson [:Exactly. Allow me to understand where you're coming from from this, and it stops it. You know? Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Anyway, so that's the idea of Common Sense Ohio is to bring a common sense dose of reality right here to the roundtable at five one one. You can check us out at commonsenseohioshow.com. We are on all the socials. We're streaming live weekly. Leave a comment. Send us a question. Do whatever normal. Take you on.
Steve Palmer [:He's happy to anytime, anywhere, in public even. If you wanna be a guest or you wanna be a sponsor, you know how to find this common sense. So ohioshow.com coming at you Wednesday in and Wednesday out right from the middle.
