I'm sitting down with two incredible women. Jen Wagner, a trained OB anesthesiologist and Bethany, a doula turned nurse and three times C-section Mama. And together they host this C-section Experience podcast. These women are flipping the narrative on surgical birth, and this conversation is honest, emotional.

And let's dive in.

Hello mamas and welcome back to the birth experience. Today I am talking to two lovely ladies from the C-section experience, which is really funny 'cause I'm the birth experience. I know C you're gonna

Bethany: point that out.

Trish: Yeah. So I've already done sort of an introduction, so I would love to have each of you guys introduce yourselves.

And tell us like your personal reason, like I know how Labor Nurse Mama was born, but I would love to how each of you guys came to the C-section experience.

Bethany: Start Jen. Oh gosh.

Yeah. And so we met there, about five, six years ago. And we had just, we have like so much in common and she's been working in birth education, for many years. And she was a nurse, she was a doula. And I do OB anesthesia, so I'm a. Fellowship trained OB anesthesiologist, which basically means I did an extra year after my anesthesia residency, in training just how to take care of pregnant patients.

So how we came to do the podcast? Yes. We basically, we were having all these conversations.

Bethany: We'd leave parties and go sit on a front porch and people would be like, where did they go? Yeah. Because

I sort of always have to abbreviate it and also I'm talking to women. When they're in kind of a different state of mind, obviously, right? Yeah. Like they're in the hospital, maybe they're, you know, in labor or whatever it is, and I don't feel like I get, they get the full picture of what I really want to explain to them.

So I've always had that in the back of my mind for years. And so this is a way for me to kind of speak openly and say the things that I wish I could say to all of my patients if I had the time, if they actually saw an anesthesiologist before they came to the hospital, which. You know, is a dream, but I don't think will ever happen.

So I think I understand, what their pain points are, what they're worried about, what questions they come in with most often. And so I want, we wanted to do something with that and the easiest thing for us was to talk about it. So that's kind of, you know, where we came to that and we have these.

Very different perspectives on everything, which I think is really helpful. You know, some people might relate more with Bethany on some things, and some people might relate more to me on some things. And to be able to share sort of both of our, our experiences and perspectives on different topics as we talk about them, I think.

It

is really

helpful for people to hear too.

It's just so interesting how. Our minds just change and our opinions and our judgements, and I just think that I'm kind of loving, getting older. I'm about to turn 42 tomorrow. I'm like, you know, there's like so much wisdom and I feel like my grandma always said this to me, but like, I like getting older because it's making me a better person.

It's making me look at the world in a different way. And I mean, what really bonds women and like why having mom friends is just. The best thing in gold in the world is we can talk about our birth stories and how they affected us, and I think we just wanted to fill that void in the C-section space, be like it is okay.

Trish: I love that so much. And it's so funny 'cause like I always say, one of my students labeled me as crunchy with a side of medical.

Yeah. So I love I that you guys, you guys are like crunchy with a side of medical. Yes. And it's so, it's so funny because I am. So obsessed with women knowing what's gonna happen before they step foot. And I say this all the time, like when you're in labor, when you're in the hospital, your only job is to labor.

Vaginal deliveries. I was induced with three of them, so I had some intervention situations, but I had never been in the OR and it was so shocking to me how little she knew. Like walking in, she had like her like deer in the headlights eyes. Now she's butt naked. We're all rushing around doing things and no one's really guiding her.

Jen: see? Yeah. Oh, I.

Bethany: There's not many of us out, out there speaking publicly.

And the thing about with Jen is like, she's like the anesthesiologist friend that you wanted to have. And this is why we would end up in these really deep conversations. 'cause I thought, well, I would've never had a conversation with my anesthesiologist, but had I known right that anesthesiologist care in a different way.

I mean, Jen cares immensely about her patients, which makes her unique too. But you're like a,

I always like, I have them guided who to talk to, who, and how to talk to them and what questions to ask. It's so, and who makes that decision? Mm-hmm. And a lot of times it is the anesthesiologist. And so I just love that you're doing this because I personally feel that all women considering epidural or having a c-section should get a consult with anesthesiologist ahead of time.

I, I, I agree. I agree.

Jen: We're not paid for them. You know, we, some places. I, so I want people to know that it's a thing though. Definitely. That an anesthesia consult is a thing and many, many places will allow it. Usually it's for something, you know, more medically complicated. Yeah.

Like you said, even if it was an epidural or spinal that previously didn't work so well. And of course you're gonna be super nervous about that again, regardless of what you're planning in the future. So to be able to talk through that, you know, why maybe why did that happen for me? And what are you gonna do to avoid that in the future?

And I think you can go in feeling so much, so much more common. Of course, we talk to patients when we consent them for anesthesia, but again, it's just. That can be, you know, five minutes. Yeah. You know, it's not usually a really long, 20, 30 minute conversation like it probably deserves to be.

Trish: Yeah.

They don't have an epidural in place to walk to the or instead of being pushed to the or. There's different things that I recommend inside the or, so I'd love to hear from you guys. For these moms who end up in a C-section or are scheduled C-section, how can they make it more like a birth experience instead of just a surgery?

So like kind of riff on what you guys recommend.

Bethany: I mean, I always say the coping skills that you are practicing before your vaginal birth should be the same coping skills you should bring in to the or. So if it's a breathing exercise, if it's, how you're talking with your partner, how you're utilizing your partner to be your support person, you can still do all of that in the or.

Don't, don't rewrite the script.

Trish: Right.

Bethany: How

Jen: about you? Oh, there's so many things. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if you experienced this in, in your time as a labor and delivery nurse, but I know. Really, since I've been doing this, which is about eight years, there is these things are becoming more normal, more common, where they were really not a thing.

I think when I first started, and more and more we're seeing. That this is not just, okay, we'll do it if you ask, but a lot of places are really incorporating into their kind of standard of care when it comes to C-sections. But the thing that I'm, most excited about right now is, adding music to the or.

Bethany: Yeah.

Yeah. You know, whatever you want. And I just start now. I just like put it on and then I ask them obviously what they want and we can, we can tailor it to their preferences. But I think that's a great thing. And particularly if you're, if it was unplanned and you had music going on, you know, in the labor room, you can certainly move that over.

We are big, big, big proponents of early skin to skin.

Bethany: Yeah.

Jen: That is definitely hospital dependent. But it's something that I think we're recognizing as something that's very important, for bonding, for mom, for baby. It's just, and it can be done basically. Some people feel like. They didn't even really know that that was a thing.

But many places are doing immediate skin to skin, or at least early skin to skin. So that can certainly be accommodated for, there's certain things you have to change with, you know, for me, the positioning of the monitors and how the drape is placed, that it's not too suffocating over mom. But it's totally can be done.

Yeah. Yeah. It's really amazing what they can do on the West Coast that literally is not possible on the East coast. You're like, what? How can one hospital say that this is a, yeah, in no way. Never

Jen: situation. And another one's doing it for every

Trish: single patient. Explain

Jen: that. Yes.

Trish: And it's so frustrating, but I love that you said what you said about skin to skin.

Because what I found with my own patients is that a lot of times it was the anesthesiologist that was fighting against it and that, so in the belly birth, I'm like. That's who you need to talk to. And I tell them the same thing because they're gonna make some accommodations for that. And that is just so important for her to feel like.

Jen: Yeah, I agree. I feel like the more we talk about this, the more. This needs to be like a crusade or something. I don't know. Yeah. But I'm done saying, you know, we'll see. Or yeah. You know, or kind of understanding the other side of it where yes. It work. You know, it messes with the workflow for the nurses too, to not blame it entirely on anesthesia, although I know we can blame things most things on, well, you do have more power in the operating room.

When do we take the baby to the nursery? And so that's kind of the time piece of it. But then once the baby is released to the mom, whether or not the baby can be held, skin to skin, the anesthesiologist really has to be supportive of that. And I. I, I try to actually help, but of course if there is a doula or some other support person, you know, in there that can, that can kind of, keep an eye on the safety of the baby, and having all those things set up ahead of time, like I talked about with the monitors and everything, and just knowing, I think we all need to just know that skin to skin can be interrupted, right?

So if something changes with the mom or the baby, then of course then it can be interrupted. But that even getting a little bit of it. Is is better than nothing. Right. And

Trish: having the choice because like you said, we all know there's those moms who is uncontrollably shaking or she's sick and she wants to end the skin to skin.

Jen: Yeah. Not everyone. Yeah, exactly. Not everyone would even want that. Like some people just need to get through. And they just want that moment afterwards, which is a whole nother thing that working, you know, on prioritizing that in recovery.

But yeah, having those options for sure is so, so important.

Bethany: And I think even setting up like your support person or your partner to be like, if I can't skin to skin. You can wear a button down, have that moment with the baby too. It's, I, you know, it's important for both of you, or once I start feeling well, like maybe it's just first putting the baby on your cheek and then moving the baby as it feels right.

And you're not so overwhelmed in that moment.

Yeah, and just touching the baby. Sometimes I think

Jen: I might be too aggressive, but I, because someone did that for me and so, 'cause I did not get skin to skin. Because it wasn't a thing then. Yeah, honestly. And but what did happen was when they brought the baby, my daughter, immediately from the surgical field over to me, the

Whoever from the pediatrician team kind of reached out her leg, like put her leg near me and was like, touch her. And I, like, I grabbed her leg, I touched her leg, and I just, I, that, that moment and then I held her afterwards swaddled, but I remember the feeling of touching her skin. Yeah. Like you, it's, it's,

Trish: ma it's making me tear up a little because how many women have had a c-section?

Bethany: Yeah.

Trish: Right. You're left to cope

Bethany: with yourself. Yeah.

Trish: There's, and the sad part about that is, I'm very brutally honest, is that in the beginning of my career I didn't think otherwise.

Like, 'cause that was just how I was trained and that was normal. Same.

Jen: Same. Yeah. And

Trish: so I even just, there's so many things I've had to check myself since I came out of the labor room and onto this side, and spending so much time with these moms, especially my postpartum moms and our membership. And for those of you guys listening, I have a terrible cold, so my voice sounds really bad, but such an important conversation.

You know, like what is going on? And, but. I also realized that just because I was trained and I tell my students this all the time, it's a job for us. And just like any job you get set in your ways and like you find your rhythm, you find your way, but it's up to these patients too to. Bump into that rhythm and be like, yeah, I understand that's how you do it, but we're not doing that this time.

This is gonna be different.

Bethany: I mean, I think that's what's so important for us too, is the advocating piece is essential for how you're gonna ultimately come out of it. And probably because neither of us got skin to skin in the or. It like, you know, the proper skin to skin, it like pushes us to be like, no, ask for it, because I can't even look friendly back at my pictures without getting upset and crying a little bit.

That, that was like a loss. And

Bethany: six, and

Trish: eight. I, I want, like I, my mom is in her eighties. This chokes me up so much. I think I'm just sick and haven't had sleep, so I'm very emotional. Now you're emotional, but my mom had a, a baby die. I. After birth, my sister before me, and back then she didn't even get to see her.

That was her first C-section. The rest of my siblings, I'm baby number seven, the rest of her vaginal deliveries. And Michelle was born, my mother never got to see her, touch her, hold her, nothing. That was it. And then when I was born, she didn't get that either. Imagine she's lost a baby who was alive when she's born.

Bethany: I mean, it's burned into your soul how you are treated in one of the most vulnerable moments of your life and that's why it matters and that's why it matters for us all to be talking about it and to be encouraging patients like, baby, we didn't have this, but like, you have a voice and you have to use it.

And something that you said in one of your podcasts is how you have to be knowledgeable in order to, in order to advocate for yourself. Yeah. So if you don't have all these pieces together, if you don't seek out this information, what are you even advocating for?

Trish: Yeah, because, and this is what I say all the time, I have my certain mantras and I repeat them all the time, so they're burned in the brain.

But then they step into their obs office or the labor room and they just lay that all down and just, yes sir. Yes ma'am. And that has to

stop for all of our children.

Jen: Yeah. I mean, I have never strapped a patient's arm. Down. I have never seen a patient. I think I maybe once walked in on one, wait, wait, be you mean They don't have to be strapp down. One time I walked into a room and it was, maybe someone who was less experienced started strapping the arms.

This does not have to be done. I think that gives you the confidence and the strength to say, this is not acceptable to me. Mm-hmm. And, and, and you can chart that I'm refusing, right? I'm refusing my restraints. That's why I said use

Trish: the

Jen: word retrain, so

Trish: that'll,

Jen: that'll

Trish: get him. Yeah. And if you, if you think about that, like this all goes back to that first C-section that I saw, because I will tell you that the majority of the hospitals I was in, they, they strapped at least one arm down.

my baby. Maybe she's never been a hospital patient. She's numb. Which I've never been numb 'cause I've never had epidural. That's very weird. But I have seen some patients lose their. Shit. Yeah. When Just from the numbness. So now she's numb. She can't feel from under her breast down and now her arms are strapped down.

Right.

Jen: It is the most bizarre experience. Barbaric and, and it's the only surgery pretty much. Especially when that's extensive that we do with the patient awake, because why would we, except for that this patient wants to be awake to experience their birth, but otherwise. It would be crazy to think, you know, that we would keep someone awake for something like this.

. So how to make a c-section more of an experience.

Yeah. A c-section experience. So I, which is still a birth experience. It's still a birth. Definitely. It also happens to be a surgery, but it's a birth and. There are so many things that we can do. Let's think of other things.

Trish: I have a couple if I, okay. Yeah. Share at all. What I address in the belly birth class is talking to the anesthesiologist about the types of medication, because you don't wanna be drowsy.

Oh, okay. Want me to go off on that?

I was completely awake. And there are people who will get sedative, whether it's a benzo or IV pain medication. You don't need any of that if your spinal is working properly. And so they are sedated and they don't know what they got and they don't know when or why and just completely And they feel loopy.

Yeah. And it's blurry what happened. Right. And then there's the other side of the coin where when it comes to anxiety, primarily we shouldn't the. The spinal or epidural should take care of the pain. So there really should be no reason for IV pain medications if everything went well, but where someone will request medication for anxiety and they'll be told that they can't get it.

Trish: Yeah, I love that.

Another thing that I recommend to my students, and this came from a VBAC lab student, she had a nurse take a picture of them pulling the baby out of her, and that was her baby number. Oh gosh. She's had two babies with I, I think that was baby number two, and I added that into the belly birth masterclass because she said that something in her brain clicked and she, it was like, yeah, that baby did come out of me.

And so now I recommend that to all of my students. Do you guys feel like that would've been an option for you in your deliveries? And do you feel like there's some people in the room who would say no to that?

Jen: Neither of us had that. Yeah. I definitely could have because I mean, I was working with all my coworkers.

Bethany: I wish I would've asked about the clear drape because I would've found it so fascinating to like, I wanted them to tell me everything that was going on during my surgery.

Yeah. So I could feel a part of it, but because. I love birth and I love science. Yeah. I think it would've been so fascinating to see it and actually was someone saying like they wanted to see their placenta? Like Yes. It's like bringing like the whole picture together. Like these are all the parts of what I've done to create this human.

I didn't even

Trish: think about, I didn't even, so I always ask my patients, do you wanna see your placenta? 'cause I am the same way. I'm such a birth geek, and it's like. It's just so fascinating. I love showing in the amniotic sac and all of that. I never even thought about the fact that the C-section patients, and I probably did put that in the belly earth, but it's been a few years.

Yes. And you

Jen: can always, so I, although I did not get a picture, I take pictures for people all the time and I ask them how graphic they want them to be. Or I say, you know, this is a cool picture. Just delete it if you don't want it. Or maybe have someone else take a look. Yeah. Yeah, I would've liked to have more pictures.

We've talked about videos before and how, you know, that is also a thing that can be done, but the main. I guess reason I would say is, videoing people without their consent is problematic, which I understand. So, especially now. Oh gosh, yeah. I mean,

Trish: yeah, I've had some really terrible pictures posted and I'm like, oh, because you know, like even I have a birth picture of Grayson and my labor nurse is behind me and she's going.

Jen: Yeah. But goodness. Yeah, but I think, I think that's something that if it was really important to you, let's say, aside from, I mean, I think anywhere should allow pictures of, the baby or whatever you're holding the baby afterwards.

But if you wanted more detailed. Amazing birth photography or videography. I think that's definitely, it's not illegal, is what I'm saying. You know? Yeah. It's not gonna affect the surgery. Yeah. So that would be a discussion I think you could have, and depending on who, who's in the or with you, which I agree, knowing who's, who's in there is really important and what their roles are.

Something that could be done, and I personally would want that. If I did it again. Yeah, you're only

Bethany: gonna do it. I mean, you're gonna have that moment once to capture it all. So Yeah. If you're just clicking away, yeah. Who cares if you delete half of 'em? You're keeping that journal.

I agree.

Jen: Here's what's funny though.

Trish: I mean, the majority of my babies were in the nineties.

I don't have much for that either. Right, because we just didn't take pictures of AB everything all the time. No, no. Well, you didn't have a camera in your hand. Right, right. It was big. And can you imagine? And then you had to, you had, gosh, to actually take it to CVS or Walgreens and get it. Printed. Printed, and then remember to pick it up.

Yeah. And all of that. That's a big piece. So no, our kids,

Jen: our kids were, they're gonna be able to like walk into an AI universe and like ee Yeah. Their whole birth. Their whole birth.

I

Bethany: mean, I think it always makes me feel sad when people feel like they can't talk about it ahead of time, if they have a scheduled one or that when they are talking about it, they're like giving you the rationale for why they had it. And I feel like I. Just normalizing that you birthed a baby by C-section, okay?

But you still birthed that baby. And to just really make that a normal statement versus a pause. Let me think. How do I further explain this? I think it would add less trauma to the experience for women as well if they felt proud of it. Like I feel proud that I birthed my children this way because it was safest for them and for me.

So how could I not be proud of that process?

True. No.

Jen: Yeah. I feel like recovery is a whole, a whole beast in and of itself. Yeah. But, and we do, we do talk about that as well. But I also, I think if we can really improve the actual birth experience, a lot of these things. Will carry into recovery. Yeah. If we're going in with like less anxiety, feeling really good about the choice, meaning you, you know why, if you want it, you feel good about it.

Yeah. That it can be really. Nice. Even, even in scarier situations, we can turn it around and make it really nice. And I think that really ultimately is going to improve, how the mom is processing the birth, how recovery is going. And so I guess. I want people to know that if you had a lesson than positive experience the first time around, and if you, you're planning a c-section, that there are lots of things that you can do to mentally prepare yourself, questions that you can ask of your providers, and ways that you can go in feeling really confident that you're going to have a better birth experience that aligns with you and your wishes.

Jen: really a lot of deep dives, detailed information about any possible thing related to c-sections, you can listen to, to the C-section experience podcast.

Trish: And they can find that everywhere. And you gonna find that Yeah.

Jen: All the, the usual places. And then we, we have our Instagram and TikTok too, which we have little clips and little educational pieces that we put up, which is, at the CSX podcast.

Bethany: And the last thing that we did is we created a pair of socks that are hospital, cute heart socks with a mantra on the toe that say, I got this.

'cause we all need a mantra, but we're going through the process. This. Yeah. And we feel like your feet and your like, you should be hugged all over. Yes. So it's our little love gift to wear some cute socks in the hospital.

I hope you loved this episode. Tag us in your stories or share it with a friend planning a c-section. Write a review, subscribe, and as always, I'll see you again next Friday. Bye for now.