If you listen to this podcast or have worked with me in any of my programs, you are already practicing Nonviolent Communication (whether you realize it or not). Today’s guest, Margot Magowan, is an expert on Nonviolent Communication, and she’s here to show you how to use those principles for better connection with your kids.

You’ll Learn:

• The basic principles of Nonviolent Communication and how to use them in parenting
• Examples of using NVC in real-life situations
• Ways that your own needs show up in your parenting (and healthier ways to meet them)
• How to focus on how your child is feeling, even if their story isn’t totally factual

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Margot Magowan, a mom of 3, says that learning about Nonviolent Communication helped to transform everything for her family. When her oldest daughter was 15 years old, she started having behavioral health challenges, like refusing to go to school, abusing drugs, and stealing. Over the course of 3 years, she went to various wilderness and residential programs, receiving access to all kinds of support and resources.

Now, at age 22, Margot’s daughter is thriving. She says, “I really credit it to me and my husband learning how to listen to her.” In her coaching practice, Margot supports other parents in learning how to truly listen to their children with presence and curiosity.

The Basics of Nonviolent Communication

Nonviolent Communication (NVC) was created by Marshall Rosenburg, who believes that all human behavior is motivated by an attempt to meet certain universal needs.

Margot explains that NVC is made up of 4 parts: observations, feelings, needs, and requests.

Take the example of you and your partner getting ready to go to a party, and you’re worried you’re going to be late. Instead of saying, “We’re gonna be late. Hurry up!”, using NVC might look like this:

• Observation - The invitation says 7:30, and it’s 6:30 now
• Feeling - I’m feeling anxious
• Need - My need for security isn’t being met
• Request - Would you be willing to leave in 15 minutes?

Margot says that when she first learned this, it felt a little robotic (and her kids hated it when she talked to them that way). She says that what really helped it to feel more authentic was when she focused on her energy rather than her language.

Basically, it’s not about the script. It’s about focusing on connection. This is called NVC Consciousness, which Margot explains as “being open and curious and present and compassionate to whatever is happening.” You’re not trying to fix anything (sound familiar?).

It goes hand in hand with the Connection Tool that I teach. You’re going into the situation as a neutral witness and viewing your child’s behavior as an expression of needs or feelings that they don’t know how to handle.

Ultimately, Nonviolent Communication is:

1. Focusing on your feelings
2. Identifying the universal needs underneath those feelings
3. Expressing that truth honestly, while staying connected to a person's humanity

It’s important to keep in mind that the goal of NVC is not to get to the other emotion. Or to get compliance out of our kids. Although these things do sometimes often happen when we show up in a compassionate way.

The Universal Needs

There are quite a few universal needs within NVC (if you want to see them all, Margot has a free list for you here). She helped us out by breaking it down into a few key categories:

• Connection
• Meaning
• Autonomy
• Honesty
• Physical Well-Being
• Peace
• Play

For example, if you walk into your child’s room and find them lying in bed when they’re supposed to be cleaning their room, your first thought might be, “Ugh, my kid is lazy. They’re not doing what they’re supposed to do.”

After that initial thought passes, ask yourself, “What need are they trying to meet?” Maybe it’s comfort or ease, and this is their best strategy to do that. Then, you can look at the behavior through a more neutral lens.

And as a parent, if you’re feeling angry, resentful, or frustrated, you probably have some sort of need that’s not being met. Be really gentle with yourself in wondering why the situation is upsetting you so much.

Margot says that NVC has made her more aware of her own needs and how to get them met. She says, “I was using all 3 of my kids to meet my own needs…I didn’t need to shift my kids’ behavior to meet my needs.” She figured out new strategies to take care of herself.

Now, she sees that a lot of moms hold to strict rules for their kids because they are trying to meet their own need for safety. If you find yourself being rigid somewhere, ask yourself, “What am I scared of? What am I making this mean?”

This is how you get to CALM. By managing your own needs and taking care of yourself, you can then show up in a connected, compassionate way for your child.

The Giraffe and the Jackal

In Nonviolent Communication, Marshall Rosenberg uses two animal metaphors: a Giraffe and a Jackal.

The Giraffe is compassionate, open, and curious. The Jackal is more judgemental and angry.

One of the things that Margot coaches parents on is spending time with the Jackal when it shows up. And how to get your needs met from someplace other than your kid (having a safe container, like a coach, to bring these feelings and needs to is super helpful).

You can ask for this clearly if you’re talking to your partner or a friend. Say something like, “I just want empathy. I just want you to listen to me and not try to make it better or fix it or take it away.” You can also do this for yourself in a journal if you need to.

Here’s the magic. When you show up as the Giraffe and listen to your kid and they feel safe and their nervous system regulates, they reach that state of compassion and curiosity in themselves. Margot says, “I feel like we're doing such a service of actually modeling how to show up for them so they can show up for themselves and be healthy adults.”

Challenging Change

There is a real obstacle that happens when we change our parenting. Our children want what is reliable and predictable. So even if you’ve been yelling, this is what they know and expect. When you change your behavior, your kid might not feel like it’s trustworthy or safe right away. It’s unfamiliar, like you’re an imposter. It freaks them out.

Margot explains that her kids thought the yelling parents were the authentic ones. They didn’t totally trust them when they stopped yelling and started trying this new approach.

Your child might even try to pull you back into your own pattern. Their behavior will escalate and they’ll almost want you to yell, because that’s what they’re used to. You have to restrain yourself and stay within your new value system long enough to get all the way through that emotion.

Eventually, they will catch up to the new version. And they’ll really like this calmer, more connected parent that you’re becoming. It just takes some time.

Doing something different isn’t always easy in the short term, but the long term gains are so worth it.

Previous Episodes:

• Episode 2.16 - The Connection Tool [New & Improved]

Connect with Margot:

• Get the “Feelings & Needs List” that Margot talked about in this episode: https://listen2connectcoach.com/resources
• Follow Margot on Instagram @listen2connectcoach
• Learn more about her coaching, workshops, and more at https://listen2connectcoach.com/

Free Resources:

Get your copy of the Stop Yelling Cheat Sheet!

In this free guide you’ll discover:

✨ A simple tool to stop yelling once you’ve started (This one thing will get you calm.)

✨ 40 things to do instead of yelling. (You only need to pick one!)

✨ Exactly why you yell. (And how to stop yourself from starting.)

✨A script to say to your kids when you yell. (So they don't follow you around!)

Download the Stop Yelling Cheat Sheet here

Connect With Darlynn:

• Book a complimentary session with Darlynn
• Learn about the different parenting programs at www.calmmamacoaching.com
• Follow me on Instagram @darlynnchildress for daily tips
• Rate and review the podcast on Itunes

Welcome back to Become a Calm Mama. I'm your host. I'm Darlin Childress

and I'm a life and parenting coach. And today on the podcast, I've

invited another parenting coach named Margo Magewan

to talk to us about connecting with our kids in

a more curious and compassionate way, using the

principles of non violent communication. Well, welcome,

Margo, to Become a Calm Mama. I'm happy to have you here.

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Yeah, it's so fun for me

to talk about nonviolent communication because

that's like my inroad into the work that I do with parents

is I was trained in nonviolent parenting with

Ruth Beaglehold of Echo, like, a long time ago,

and she was trained at NVC in nonviolent

communication. So it's like anyone who works with me or

listens to the podcast or does any of my programs,

they are practicing nonviolent communication without

necessarily knowing that. And so I love that

you are an expert on nonviolent communication and you teach it

all the time, pure, like, you know, in that way.

So I think it's really great to have you on to talk about

nonviolent communication and to share the concept

with my audience, even though they already do it, they just don't have the

label. So thanks for being on. Yeah, thanks

so much for having me. I've noticed that about your podcast

and about your work, it's very. Expresses

nonviolent communication. Exactly. Without that word. Yeah.

Right. So tell me how you got into the work, what you do

with how you work with families and kind of where, like, what does your

work look like and how'd you get here? So before I became a

coach, I am a writer and I

spoke about politics and culture and women's rights and I would

advocate on television and radio.

And then I had kids, and so I had three kids. So I have three

daughters. And everything went along fine until my oldest

daughter was about 15 years old and she started having behavioral health

challenges. She, she had school refusal,

wouldn't go to school, she was abusing drugs, she was stealing.

And we sent her to wilderness programs and

residential treatment where she was for like three years. And anyway,

my daughter had access to all kinds of mental health support, like

dialectical behavioral therapy, cognitive behavioral

therapy, all kinds of stuff. What really transformed everything for

our family was when my husband and I learn

nonviolent communication. And my daughter, she's

22 now, she's thriving, she's so happy.

She's great job. She's going to school. She's in a great relationship,

and I really credit it with me learning. Me and my

husband learning how to listen to her. Yeah. How to

listen to her. It's so beautiful. Exactly right. It's similar to my

way that I came to this work is that.

But it was when my son was 4. He's also 22, but

when he was 4, I was like,

I don't he. Now we know he had adhd. Yes.

But at the time, I just thought I had this, like,

very bad, sociopathic child. Like, I was, like, out of my

mind. And I was trying

traditional parenting methods, like timeout or

removing privileges, but really I was just yelling a lot.

You know, I was just really overwhelmed. And, you know,

he would just sit in his little timeout chair. This is like back in Nanny

911 Days or whatever. And he'd

just gnaw on it. He'd just sit in the chair and gnaw on it. Like.

Like, I've. We had that chair for years. And it was like, marks. Bite marks.

And there was bite marks on his crib. If I would put him in there.

And I had no idea about nervous system. I had no idea about regulation.

I didn't know how to talk to him. I didn't know anything.

And I luckily met someone

who taught parenting in this foundational

way of communicating through nonviolence. And we can define it in

a second. But I was like, what? Like,

it was so crazy that I was gonna have, like, a

conversation with my son and that his behavior

was an expression of his unmet needs and his

emotions, and it just was. Now

this is Obviously, you know, 20 plus years or almost 20

years have gone by, and education has come a long way. But at the time,

the traditional parenting was still kind of the key. You sticker charts,

timeout, takeaway, still spanking.

And I'm like, I'm supposed to

listen. We're gonna have a conversation about how you act. It was

so hard for me to even fathom

it, but then I started doing it, and I saw change.

That's one thing I love about your website, is how openly you speak about

the yelling. Because I was such a yeller too. I yelled and yelled and yelled

at my kids, and honestly, if it worked, I'd still be

doing it. But it doesn't work. You know, it doesn't. Short term,

maybe. Exactly. Compliance in the moment? Possibly.

Yes, possibly. Depends on the personality and the limbic center of

the person you're yelling at. Exactly. Yeah, I know. I do.

I am pretty transparent about it all. And

like I remember this goes into trauma, but

feeling like I was victimized by my 4 year old, that I was in

an abusive relationship. Yes. And then saying

to my friend that and her saying

that's not normal. Right? Yeah.

And I was like, wait, what? Like she's like, not everybody feels that

way. I think you have some more stuff going on here.

And we're still best friends. We went a big long hike yesterday. Like it's the

best person to me. But I really needed to say the

that quiet part out loud and then be told, hey, there's help out there.

Yes. Because even when you said that you thought in your mind, your thought was,

oh my God, my kid's a sociopath. Like I had the same thoughts about my

kid and then I would feel horrible for thinking those thoughts and afraid to talk

to anybody about it. So I really appreciate your willingness to

speak about your experience. Yeah, well, once you

get to the other side, you know, it's.

I want to share that it doesn't have to be that painful.

Um, and it's similar to where you were in so much pain with your daughter

and 15 year old girls, you know, really

struggle. And in this day and age with social

media and social bullying and images,

image issues, like it's just a lot going on for them

and then to have be at your wit's end, like I'm doing

everything I can for this kid and I not sure

what to do or what can we change. And so what did you

notice when you practice the principles of nonviolent

communication? So it took me a lot. We first learned about

nonviolent communication and family therapy and how it was

initially explained. To me it was sort of very

too formulaic I think. Like I was very suspicious of it at first. So I'll

tell you how it was first explained which was

just say like I. Okay, so observations, feelings,

needs requests. So say it again. Observations,

feelings, needs requests. Yes.

So okay, I'll give you an example for like with adults.

So say instead of saying like you're with your partner and you're

worried that you're going to be late for a party, instead of saying to your

partner like honey, we're going to be late, hurry up. You would,

you would make an objective observation which is something like

honey, the invitation says

7:30 and it's 6:30 now. I feel then

a feeling, I'm feeling anxious

because my need for security isn't being met. And then you make a direct

request, would you be willing to leave in 15 minutes?

And it Actually sounds lovely. Right. Because there's no

judgment involved. Right. Because what. You're making us late. Hurry up.

Which is a demand or command and. Yeah, yeah,

it sounds beautiful. Yes. So we

initially learned it in a very formulaic way. My kids

hated it Whenever I spoke that way. They'd be like, mommy, you're speaking like a

robot. Like, what was funny is when we started to learn

nonviolent communication, they thought the yelling parents were the

authentic parents. Yep. So when we stopped

yelling, they totally didn't trust us. Um, and it was. I wanted

to pause there. Cause that's actually a real problem, like a real issue, real obstacle

that happens when we change our parenting. And I, I, I do talk about

this, like, in my work, because

our children, they want to

know what's safe, and they pick. What's safe is what's reliable and predictable. And

that's kind of like what you know is good.

Yes. Yeah. And so when you change your behavior,

they don't necessarily feel like it's trustworthy or safe. Like you,

you know, you're like an imposter or something. 100%.

Yeah. Not safe for them because it's unfamiliar.

It freaks them out. And then eventually they catch up to

the new version, and they really, really like this

calmer, more regulated, more connected parent.

But there is, like, this period of time, and I've noticed parents

will. And maybe you do see this in your practice. Like, it's not working

because their behavior escalates because they want to go back to the old pattern where

you yell. So the child's behavior will escalate in the

process that you're changing because they want to pull you back to your old

pattern. And you have to restrain yourself or

stay within your new value system long enough to get all

the way through that emotion. Then they get to that calm side, and

they're like, okay, this is actually better. And you do that enough times

and they feel better. Yes. So well said. And

I think one thing that's really helped for me, for my kids to

recognize authenticity instead of feeling like I was imposter is I really

focus on my energy and not my language.

Gosh. Yeah. Let's say. Yeah. What do you mean by that? So what I mean

by that is the shift that I made was I got. I was

so focused on the script. Right. The NBC nonviolent community.

You have to use the script, I notice. So I feel. Because I

need. And then you make a request. And what I started to do

instead was really focus on what they call NVC

consciousness Which is being open and curious and

present and compassionate to whatever is happening. I

prioritize connecting instead of fixing. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. And it's true. I

teach tons of scripts. Like, I just like. Like

parts and pieces. I recently, I was like. Because I'm working on a book and

I'm like, everything is like, step one, step two, step three. It's like, it's

awful, really, because it's so much that people like so much to memorize. And it.

Because you want the practical script and you want to know what to say and

what to do. Like, we want that part and that's helpful.

And at the same time, there is the. The concept

within us that is shifting and that I always say, like, feelings

drive behavior. Like what's going on on the outside is

what they're trying to reveal on the inside. And

when I think about connection, I honestly, I

used to think about it differently, but I really think about as connecting my child

to my child. Yes. I think that's totally true.

Yeah. Like, I'm going to. I'm so curious. I'm being as neutral of a

witness as it can possibly be of what's happening

on the outside. And it's really hard. So easy to say.

Neutral, witness, compassionate witness. Those words

are easy to say, but they are very hard to do. And we can talk

more about how to do it. But if you are coming

from that place, if you can ground into.

This is my child's expression of needs. This

is my child's expression of emotion that they don't know how to handle.

This is a nervous system on fire. Then

you soften your energy. Right. It kind of is

like I'm present here. I'm not trying to

manipulate or manage or,

you know, change anything. It's just slowing it

down. And then I think the big

situations sort of fix themselves a little bit. Yeah,

I think that's so true. And I think that really, when. When you can get

into that MVC consciousness space base, that natural curiosity

opens up. And when I feel natural curiosity,

that's when I stop doing the power over parenting and I'm more power

with. But otherwise, if I'm just using the script, it

is just sort of like a manipulation to get my child

to do what I want. And the kid, I think, can sense that, and then

it doesn't work. Sound effective? Yeah. They

know when you're genuinely being curious.

Yes. Or when you're trying to just

get past the feeling so you can get compliance.

They know 100%. Yeah. We can sense it too, as

adults. Yes. Faking it. Yeah. So how?

How? Well, I do try to remember. So just basically, like in a

nutshell, what nonviolent communication is, is focusing on your feelings,

identifying the universal needs underneath those feelings, and then

expressing that truth honestly while staying connected person's

humanity. And then also, Marshall Rosenberg, who created

nonviolent communication, believes, as I do, that all human

behavior is motivated by an attempt to meet these

universal needs. And so what I really try

and do is pay attention to what my child's

need is. What is she needing? So say I, like, walk into the room

and she's lying in bed, and I wanted her to be cleaning her room instead

of saying like, well, honestly, part of me will think like,

oh, my God, my child's lazy. She's doing what she's supposed to do. I think

we have those first. The first pass. Eventually, if you

practice a long time, your first pass is not judgment.

Right. But it can easily be for a

long time. First pass is judgment. And even if you've been practicing

a long time, first pass could still be judgment. Yeah,

but I do think in my head then, okay, she's meeting her need for what?

For comfort and ease, possibly right now. And this is her best

strategy to do that. And that just helps me, like,

shift myself into a place where I can show up for her as opposed to

judging her. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about the

universal needs. It's funny because when your episode comes out,

prior to that, there have been a couple of episodes about connection, Connection

tool, and really the essential beliefs that kids

need to have. The fears like, I'm not safe, I'm not

lovable, I'm not good enough. Those kinds of things. And

really, when you're looking at your child's behavior, making

sure you communicate to them you are safe,

you are lovable, you are capable. Right. You're good enough.

And I think when we get stuck as

parents, it's because we're almost thinking,

are you good enough? Yes. And then

they're like, am I good enough? We have to believe you're good enough. And then

we kind of parent from that lens. And it's

similar for the needs piece, you know, like, what are these,

you know, universal essential needs? When I studied nvc,

I found the list overwhelming. Like, it was like, so many.

But I always have boiled it down to, like, attention, affection,

autonomy, appreciation. So when you think about

them, how do you think about what are our human essential

needs? How do you teach it? Oh, I have my list here. And I always

I've been doing NBC for years and I still have

okay listeners. Margo just picked up a piece of paper and there's like

28 words on it. Yeah, I think it's

tricky for parents. Like. Yeah, I think that's why you said

maybe. I mean, this is a guess, but that you feel overwhelmed by it. Because

I still carry this around. Yeah, right, right.

So the needs are basically there in a few categories of connection. Needs like

acceptance, affection, appreciation,

belonging, to be seen, to matter. There's many needs

which are like awareness, clarity, competence, there's

autonomy needs, there's honesty needs, physical, well being, peace,

play. I don't know if that feels overwhelming just to hear that. Those are good.

Yeah, those are good categories.

I really like to remember the needs all the

time because it really helps me think of

my kid as like, she's just figuring out the best

strategy to meet those needs at the moment instead of like, my kid is a

bad kid. Does that make sense? For sure, yeah. And

I think it's why I've simplified it in many ways. Like,

feelings drive behavior. So like, I have a feeling. I

have a feeling of sadness or I have a feeling of.

Yeah, it is a need. Like I, I'm feeling disconnected. I

want connection. I, I don't, you know, I'm feeling kind of the opposite

of the, the needs. And then what is it that I need? Right.

If I'm showing you through my behavior.

But it is so helpful to like, view

someone's behavior as a form of communication of

what they're needing underneath or what they're struggling

with inside. And you know, I

think about as a parent, it's, it's. It's

actually a little complicated because we do have a responsibility to

teach kids our skills and emotional management and things

like that. And then also being responsible and

our values, whatever our values are as a family.

And then when we have a behavior, it really counters. Like we're

like, oh, this is. They haven't learned this yet. Or,

you know, this is indicative of what they're going to be like when they're older.

This is indicative of how. I'm not a good parent. We're always

evaluating the behavior on some level.

We do. We are supposed to a little bit. We want to get some feedback

of where our kid is and what maybe they do or don't understand

yet. But when we're judging

the behavior, that's where I think we get messy. So

it's like we can observe with intention of

might need to parents this. Or set a limit around this or

you know, talk through why this behavior

doesn't work. Right. But it's not the first

conversation and it's not the way that we want to be looking.

Viewing our children is like, fix it, change it, stop it, solve it. Like what

do we gotta. Oh, this is, she's lazy, she's laying down, she's supposed to be

doing her. I've asked her four times, like we make it mean

so much. Right? And it does mean something.

Yeah, I think, I mean what I really have shifted with my,

with nonviolent communication is prioritizing the connection instead of

the fixing. And one thing I really like about your work or what

I know of your work, which you've talked about today as well, is like

as a mom, I focus on myself all the time. Like what are my

needs? And I. What really shifted for me when I learned nonviolent communication

was I stopped using my kids and I was using all three

of my kids to meet my own needs. I

became aware of what my needs were and then I figured out other strategies where

I could meet my needs, where I didn't need to shift my kids behavior to

meet my needs. Yeah, because if I need

calm or I need a sense of

control in order to feel calm,

that's going to be very difficult to achieve. If you have three

little boys or little girls or three 8 year old

girls because their

nervous systems are firing their behaviors out of bounds. You know, they're

learning, they're mature, they're making mistakes all the time. And

so if we learn how to take care of ourselves, that's like that calm. Right.

If I know how to like go inside and manage my own

needs and get those met and take care of myself,

that's the only way I can show up in this connected space. Space with

my kids 100%. Like

you need calm. Like when parents are like, you need to be

quiet so I can calm down. Right, right, you need to

calm down. It's like because I can't calm down until you come down it

that codependent relationship where we need our kids to be successful

or be calm or be whatever in order to get our need

for meaning, our need for belonging, our need for

autonomy, all those different needs. If we're using our children

in any way, it's going to get messy

100%. And I think that that's a lot of why I became a coach

because I felt like that was what was sort of skipped in my

daughter's recovery was I kept trying to shift my daughter's

behavior so I could feel safe and successful and

competent. And what I realized, what my husband and I

realized together is, oh, wait, we got to meet our own needs,

not through our kid. And even with things like school refusal, my 15

year old daughter would not go to school. And so I think a lot of

parents can be like, my daughter has to go to school. That's the

bottom line. Well, this daughter had severe ADHD

and she ended up getting her ged. She had a different

path than the path I thought she was supposed to take.

And now I realize all of my kids, like, I just try and show up

and see what their path is. And I think what's really

hard and what I do in my coaching, I, I,

I played the role I was supposed to play as a daughter. Right. I was

a good kid and I did what I was supposed to do. And I

thought, I thought when I had kids that I was going to get a

fan club because that's what I was. And then when

my kids weren't a fan club, I was, I was shocked and I was pissed

off and I was like, what the hell? Like what happened here and

what did I do wrong? Exactly. And what I did wrong is I'm a

cycle breaker. And it seems like you are too to some degree. And I think

it's, as mothers we played that role to then be

a different kind of mom than our mothers were to us. It's

challenging. Yeah, it really is. And going back to

regulating ourselves, making sure we are taking care of ourselves, meeting our

own needs. When I came to this work,

the first thing I learned was nonviolent communication.

And that is where in all my work is Connect. That's like, because I have

this four pillar parenting process. Calm, connect, limit set,

correct. And connect was so powerful.

Like it changed so much of my, the

tenor in my family. I, Lincoln had these crazy meltdowns

that lasted for like 45 minutes to an hour. Insane, like

kicking, screaming, running around, just cuckoo pants.

Every day at 4 o' clock, it was like on the dot.

And I tried so many circumstantial changes. I

would, you know, correct the behavior. I mean it was just, and

then when I just stopped and just was

like, hey buddy, I'm right here. Yes.

You're having a hard time. You, you

crying. It's screaming and kicking.

Yeah, yeah, you need to kick, kick here.

I just was like with him in it, everything, it went

like, calm. Like the,

the thing that I wanted in my family was like created.

It was a magic trick. I was like, wait, what is this?

Whispering I'm doing that is making my child not be so

reactive. And it

was so foundational to everything that I.

It changed me phenomenally, you know, at a foundational space. And I think that's

probably true for you too. Like, once it. You caught it, you're like, oh, okay,

I get what this means. Because you do. You get like a

taste of it. And then I still didn't quite know

how to handle, like, cuckoo behavior or just limit

setting in general. You know, setting boundaries, like the direct request

thing. And he's like, would you be willing to get your socks and shoes on

in the next 15 minutes? It's not. It's not great

for parenting per se. Right. But we can. We have to have better.

We have to have different language for limit setting and consequences. And. And

so then that's. I added limit, set and correct. And

then teach it all, teach it all, teach it all. You know, people making huge,

huge strides in their families. And then they'd be like, the only thing is,

darlin, I can't remember. I can't remember what to

do. I can't. I just still meowing.

That's when I became a life coach because I was like, all that part

about calm. You can't do any of this good parenting

connection, setting boundaries without harshness, following through with

restitution or responsibility. You can't do any of it until

you're calm. Right. And that's what you were like, there's a

piece missing. And it's true. In

most parent education, it's focused on the child. Even if it's a

connected parenting education, like nonviolence or

compassion. Compassion is nonviolence. It's the same

if you don't know how to emotionally regulate, if you don't know how to take

care of yourselves, if you are cycle breaking, like you said,

there's going to be a. It's a lot of effort to show up

this way as a parent, and we have to

be figuring out how to take care of ourselves, how to practice

nonviolent communication or connection with ourselves

and creating a better inner dialogue. And is that what you find you

do with your clients? Like really kind of teaching them that

piece? Yeah, I really focus. I mean, I teach dads as

well, but I love focusing on moms because

I really didn't. My need for appreciation. I have a big need for appreciation.

Fan club. Hence the fan club. Yes. And I

think because the part of me still believes, okay, so in nonviolent communication,

Marshall Rosenberg uses two animal metaphors. A giraffe And a

Jackal giraffe is basically, like, compassionate.

You're open, you're curious what we're talking about. Jackal is more

judging. You're angry, you're pissed off.

My Jackal comes up a lot. We sort of refer to it already. And what

I. What I teach moms to do, so much of

my coaching is being with that Jackal, because moms

don't get a lot of chance to, like, sit. Okay? Like, I just went

on a college trip. I took my junior daughter to visit colleges,

and a part of me, again, was pissed off because no one took me to

visit colleges, right? So I'm taking my daughter, and I'm

arranging the whole trip. And she's my third, so I've, like,

got the college tours, and I paid for it, whatever. And so we're at dinner,

and my daughter before the trip, and my daughter goes, I don't want to go

on the trip. It's spring break. I want to hang out with my friends.

So I. Because I'm very trained in NBC, I was like, yeah, I get that,

honey. You know, tell me more. She's like, I just. I felt bad,

and my other friends aren't going. And I'm angry and I'm sad. I'm like, that

makes so much sense. Can I give you a hug? She leaves. And then I

go to my husband. I'm like, I'm so annoyed.

I'm so angry. Like, I want gratitude

and I'm not getting it. And he will listen to me. And what is so

great about NBC and what I coach moms in? Go to someone

else to get that need for appreciation met. Don't go to your kid.

Does that make sense? It's so true.

And I think we also

can learn to meet it ourselves, too. Like, we don't. You know,

I love a good sesh. Like your daughter kind of bitching to you

and you holding space, and then we hold all that space.

We have to have someone that we get to bitch to as well, right

Then, you know, but at the same, sometimes in parenting,

there's nobody to bitch to. And that is really where we

are, being our own coach or, like, processing

through our emotion. And you're right. You cannot bypass.

Is there if I have an unmet need or I have

a feeling that I want to process, like, I'm

resentful, possibly, or something. It's like, yeah,

it has to come out. Otherwise it will get

stuck and will show up in the next conversation. Maybe you're compassionate and kind with

her. This conversation, then you're stressed at the airport and things aren't going

well. And then she's like, that's why I didn't even want to come on this

trip. And you're like, you don't even understand what it took for me to get

here. Yeah. So it's like keeping our

own accounts short, too. Yes. Yes. I think

that's why the coaching helps, is that they have a safe container, the moms

to come, and I'm sure they have that with you. But also, my husband, like,

he needed a lot of training. Yes. Right. Because he was a

total fixer, and he couldn't listen to me complain about my

kid or without, like, you know, getting nervous or, like, trying to

defend her. Like. And I was. And now he knows. Now he just.

And I. He just. Sometimes I have to say, like, I just want empathy. I

don't want you to defend her because I know what's going on with my daughter,

but I need someone, and maybe it's me in my own journal, but to just

listen to me and not try to make it better or fix it or take

it away. Yeah. Yeah, we do. We do want that. We need

that. But you're right. Not getting it from our kids and being aware,

like, when you're angry or

resentful or frustrated. Right. That's probably because we have

some sort of fear or need that's not being met. It's not.

Yes. Your child's behavior is frustrating, but there's probably more to it. And

I think that's what we're talking about is, like, going in a little bit and

being curious about ourselves and kind of taking a look at, why am

I so upset by this? Or why is this bothering me? And being

really gentle in having that conversation.

Yeah. And I just want to add that when that happens with my daughter, and

I know you have this experience as well, like, when I just really listen to

her and give her space. She did this that night. She comes up, like,

20 minutes later, and she's like, mom, I'm excited to go on this trip, you

know, and we had a great time. Yeah. It's like. But if I try to

force it or if I go in my head like, oh, I have a spoiled

brat child, and why can't she. Then it doesn't go

anywhere. You know, my daughters, all of them, and all the

moms I coach to and dads, when you show up and

listen to your kid and they feel safe and their nervous system

regulates, they reach that state of compassion and

curiosity in themselves, and I Feel like we're doing such a service

of actually modeling how to show up for them so

they can show up for themselves and be healthy adults. Yeah,

exactly. And the purpose of connection

or compassion or practicing NVC principles is

not to get to the other emotion.

Right. It's not to, like, coach towards gratitude, coach

towards compliance or acceptance or whatever.

Maybe there's some room for perspective taking sometimes some

conversations if they really see, feel, seen and felt. But

most of the time, we can just leave it there as

like, yep, it's not great for you. I hear you. You

know, that's okay. It's okay for you to be annoyed or frustrated or whatever

they've got going on and trust

that they can get back to a regulated space

on their own with that once they feel

seen and soothed. But not every

kid will do that, especially young. Younger ones, too. They

might still get in the car and still be grumpy and still be pissed off.

And that can be an obstacle for us, I think, when we're like, I

did the thing. I was kind, I showed up.

Yes. And, you know, they're still being an

asshole. No, I mean, I had an extreme version of that with

my oldest daughter who was in residential treatment because it literally took years.

And one of the first ways I learned how to practice,

actually really practice NBC, was when she would tell this story

to all of her therapists about how my husband kicked her out

of his truck on the freeway, Right? And this never happened.

And so initially, when my daughter would tell the story, my husband and I would

get, like, so offended and so hurt and be like, why are you lying? Why

are you saying this has never happened? And finally a therapist was like, just

listen to her and empathize with her.

And I'm like, but it never happened. How can I empathize with her? And she's

like, empathize with whatever she's feeling. So I tried to imagine how

would my daughter feel if she were kicked out of the truck on the freeway.

And I was like, okay. She would feel scared, she

would feel anxious, she would feel abandoned. And so I asked

her those things. I said when she complained about it again, dad kicked me out

of the truck on the freeway. I was like, that must have been really scary

for you. And she's like, yeah, it was really scary.

And I said, oh, did you feel, like, alone? Yeah, I felt totally alone.

And I just went with her. And darling, like, honestly, that was a huge, huge

shift. Like, that I was able to do that and that she felt

safe and listened to the truth of her story, truth in

quotes, wasn't about like what actually happened, but

it was her emotional truth that she finally felt safe enough to express

to me. Yeah, she really wanted you to know there were periods

of time, whether that in this not real

scenario, but there were periods of time in her experience of you

or of herself, that she felt those feelings and. Yeah,

and wanting to have a witness of that and a validation

of, yes, yes, you felt that way and yes, that was probably really hard.

Yes. And it's why I go back so with nonviolent communication.

Again, it's observations, feelings, needs requests. But

the observation part of it is tricky because

how Marshall Rosenberg initially explained observation was think of it

as a video camera. What would a video camera see? Like

we were talking about when we began this interview, like, what, what is the time

on the invitation? But with my daughter

it's not, it's not a. It's not a clear visual

observation. It's also what was going on inside. So it's way more

complicated. So that's one way that I coach

moms and NBC and parents is to think of

observation as more like an iceberg. Like you can

see something happening, but then it also stimulates your own personal

experience. And then also systemic power dynamics can come

into it as well. What it's like to be a girl in the world or

something like that. Yeah, there's a lot more going on

that can be quite deep. The more perception we have,

the more we can put our kids in a narrative of like, okay, let's put

you in a story. You are a 15 year old, you're a girl, this

is what your whole world is like. Or, okay, you're four,

you don't want to go to sleep, and it's dark and it's the end of

playtime and all you want to do is have power.

And here I am saying you can't.

A deep understanding of what could be going on with

these big little people. For

listeners of my work, what Margo's talking

about when she talks about observation, I use the word narrate. So

when I created a connection tool that is

in the foundational principles of nvc, but just different

language. So it's narrate, name regulate,

and then we coach if we can. So narrating

is really like what you can see what's happening, like, what are the

facts? So even if it's a story,

that's not true. I hear you saying that you were on

the side of the road, you know,

and then naming the emotion, it's a guess. I wonder if you were feeling

really sad and scared and then like validating

and then if that creates dysregulation to use grounding exercises

or regulating on some way. And that's

the connection tool. So it's like the principle's there, but

then put into parenting practice. Because in my work,

I don't, I don't teach that parents share their emotion with their kids.

And I don't know how you handle that. And maybe that's like a

sidebar. But in general, I find it too

slippery that the parent says, I'm

feeling overwhelmed to the child. And the child then may take on a

caretaking role. Or

if you are coaching them or trying to move their,

you know, witness their feeling. They are too young to be

witnessing our feelings. Agree 100%. So. So it

gets messy for me in, in parenting as a pure. As pure nvc.

I like it. Pure NVC is really, really useful for

peer relationships. But the

foundational foundation is the same

like looking at your child and observing

what's the facts here, what's happening? And then looking

at what could be. What would. If they could say I'm feeling

blank, what would they say? And

we kind of offer that. Those. That language because they

don't necessarily have it. They are emotionally illiterate. And so

we are doing that. Then we get to the, the

ask. Right. The. And then the request is that that's what it is.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think too, like when

I really love that humility is such a big part of NBC

that we're really making guesses as parents. Like, are you, are you

feeling sad as opposed to telling them that's what they're feeling. And

then for the strategy, I really like whenever possible, and this is even

with young kids, to bring in the child as a

collaborator. Like if the kid say it's a younger kid and she doesn't want to

brush your teeth and she's like saying, I really don't want to brush my teeth.

Oh, you know, tell me more. I don't feel like it. I want to keep

playing this game that seems so much more fun.

So then I might say something like, but, you know, getting your teeth cleaned is

also important. So what are your ideas about that? And then she might,

okay, I'll do it in like five minutes or something. That's one idea. We'll come

up with a bunch of ideas. Maybe, you know, we'll do it in half an

hour. Maybe I'll do it with my friend as

opposed to me coming in with this strategy. And I see that sort of. I

want. I don't want to call it a mistake, but lots of parents, I feel

like, come in with, this is how it's going to go. And

I really like to bring in my child, the children as

collaborators, and I find that they're so much more willing to do the thing

if they get to be a part of how to do it. And

I think that meets their needs for, like, competence and

autonomy and. And also play sometimes. Like,

you know, when they're younger, you know, making it playful. Like,

you know, well, what about if a. If a big bear brushes your teeth,

you know, or, you know, how about we jump up and down. Don't jump it

down with your toothbrush. But, you know, like, what if we try to do it

with our other hand or, you know, let's do this and

then spits, you know, making it playful can also be so helpful

for kids. But you're right. If we come with an agenda, I think the agenda

and the mistake people make is the agenda is I'm going to validate your

emotion and then you're going to be compliant.

Is this as if this is some sort of parenting hack?

It does create an emotional space of compliance.

More collaboration, more willingness,

but it can't be our goal. Great.

Yeah. As you really help parents and you probably do this

as well, but the rules that we have, like, even brushing our teeth or going

to school or those kinds of things, like, what value is it

connected to for you as opposed to just automatically. Because this is what I did

as a parent, like, even, like my oldest daughter going to college. And

this obviously speaks to the privilege that I grew up with. But, like, I never

considered that my daughter wouldn't go to college. So

it's just really. And it's why diversity, I think, is so important with

coaching and with mental health. But, like, just really think, like, if my daughter

misses a day brushing her teeth, maybe that's okay. You know, maybe that

gets a need met for autonomy and creativity and something that's

more important than brushing her teeth. And I help a lot of

parents see that, like, sticking to this hard, fast rule often

is meeting their need for, like, safety. Like, they feel like they're a

good parent if they do this and if they don't, what does that

mean? And we often. I spend a lot of time going through with moms, like,

what does it mean if you don't follow this rule you've made for yourself?

Yeah, it's absolutely. Because

the rigidity that gets created

within us because of our own anxiety is

kind of the enemy of

creativity, the enemy of collaboration is that

rigidity. And what we want to find is some

space where there is some room, some flow, some movement.

And I remember learning this in my training when I

learned nonviolent parenting was like, you know, you could just use

a washcloth. They could just suck on a washcloth for a little bit and it'll

move enough of the bacteria around that it's not that big of a deal.

And another coach saying, yeah, toothpaste isn't

really what. It doesn't really have a purpose. It's just the movement

of things that get stuck on the enamel. You just move it around.

I was like, okay, that's so freeing. As a parent, when

you understand what's the why here and have a little bit

more education, then you're able to be like, oh, I'm just going to make

sure that you have a dry toothbrush in the car. What difference does it make?

Right? Yeah. I do think with a lot of the moms I

teach, I coach, I do think they're trying to meet a need for

safety. So one thing I help them do is get in touch with their own

need for safety and when they are able to let go. What I

have seen in my coaching is, well, just. Really? Yeah. Yes. And I

think that's exactly right. Like, looking at.

If we have a rigidity somewhere within ourselves

that. Looking at, like, where. What am I scared of?

What am I nervous about? Why am I showing up this way? What am I

making this. If I. I always say parent the kid in front of you, not

the one you wish you had or the one you're afraid they'll become. And it's

like, this is a kid in front of me. If I parent this particular person

in this moment, is the teeth brushing.

Like, is this the hill I want to die on? Like, you know, or am

I parenting out of fear of the future? Like, this is a slippery slope. I

don't do one toothbrush. This ice cream for breakfast today is. They're

gonna be like, whatever our fear is. And

it like, no. I remember with Sawyer, my younger one, because he had such food

restrictive disorder that he regularly just ate ice

cream. Like, I didn't care because it's just calories. Like, I don't want you to

die. So, yeah, it's like kind of I

had to find flexibility because of a disorder.

Right. And not. Yeah. Be so

stressed by it. It's like, how many calories does this child need

to live? Okay. However you get them in. And that

was weird to other parents. Right. When you're showing

up differently and if you practice nonviolent communication, it's going to

look different. And I think that's something. I talk to parents all the time. I

teach a feelings first, but not a feelings only model. So

it's feelings first, behavior second. But in

the moment, it looks like a feelings only model

to others, to grandparents and to, you know, extended family and,

you know, camp counselors and whatever, whoever. And

it's like, no, no, no, we're gonna work

all that out in the back end. I have the

boundaries. This is new information for me. I'm gonna talk through this. I'm gonna make

some new limits. But in the moment, it's feelings

and recognizing those needs. Yeah. I find one way to help

moms get through that is to. Is the value of

nervous system regulation. Most moms, I find when you explain it to

them, they also really value regulating the nervous system.

And they believe that when you show up for your

child's feelings and when you model regulation and support

them in a safe place, they also learn nervous system regulation.

And I think that's important. They get. That's important. Yeah. It's

way more important than, like, making your

bed today. Yeah. Yeah. It's like longer term

emotional health for sure. Well, I've loved our

conversation. Thank you so much for being

on the podcast. Is there anywhere that people can find you if they're

curious more about learning? Specifically about nvc?

My website is Listen to Connect Coach. It's Listen and

then a numeral 2connectcoach.com.

Okay. You can find me there. Thank you so much. Thank you for all the

great work you do in the world. I really admire it. Oh, thank you. Same

to you.