Early in 2023, the BBC reported that more than 350 leisure centres, pools and gyms across the UK have either closed temporarily or permanently or changed their services in response to rising energy bills.

While there are early signs that the energy bills crisis is easing, the issue has highlighted the challenges that many local authorities are facing managing old and inefficient buildings.

So in this episode we discuss how the public and private sectors can work together to develop long-term solutions to ensure leisure centres, existing and yet to be built, are fit for a sustainable future.

You'll hear from Councillor Hannah Dalton, leader of Epsom and Ewell Borough Council and the District Council Network spokesperson on health, hardship and housing, Nick Herd, the Head of Building Services Engineering for Kier's Design Services Business, and Joe O'Connell, project manager for St Sidwells Point Project in Exeter. The UK's first Passivhaus leisure centre.

Welcome to the Kier Beyond the Build podcast where we get together with Kier and industry experts to explore the big issues affecting our sector. Early in 2023, the BBC reported that more than 350 leisure centres, pools and gyms across the UK have either closed temporarily or permanently or changed their services in response to rising energy bills. While there are early signs that the energy bills crisis is easing, the issue has highlighted the challenges that many local authorities are facing managing old and inefficient buildings.

So in this podcast we discuss how the public and private sectors can work together to develop long-term solutions to ensure leisure centres, existing and yet to be built, are fit for a sustainable future. My first guest is Councillor Hannah Dalton, leader of Epsom and Ewell Borough Council and the District Council Network spokesperson on health, hardship and housing. I kicked off the conversation by asking Hannah her thoughts on the current challenges that leisure centres are facing.

Louise, thank you so much for asking us to come along today because you're right, this is a really big issue, and it's wider because of the impact it has on our residents to a number of levels. So here in Epsom and Ewell, we have one leisure centre. It is the one free swimming pool that's available to our residents, and it gives a number of benefits to our residents in terms of what it offers, but we are facing increased utility rates.

What sort of challenges is the service in Epsom and Ewell facing there? Have you had to reduce hours there or even close the leisure centre?

We haven't had to close it. However, we have reduced the heating in the swimming pool by one degree, which sounds maybe okay, but for your users, bearing in mind, for example, that we do sessions with people with dementia or SEN sessions, that's an issue. We've also reduced air conditioning. When we're using it, we only use it when it's really, really hot. Also, we've reduced that by a couple of degrees. And all of those things are to help us meet the challenges of the cost of running the centre.

In addition, we're looking at more energy efficient ways of heating it. So we're looking at heat circulation pumps, we're looking at fitting solar panels on the top of the building, and more recently we have replaced all of the light fittings with LED. That's really expensive, but then you have to look at it as a spend to save initiative. You get the outlay now and then you get the savings. But there are other costs. I didn't realise this, but the cost of chlorine has gone up twofold, like what it used to be for a tonne for what it is now, and because of the shortages. So it's even those things, it's just all putting pressure on the service.

I think in terms of the community hub and so on, as well as the obvious benefits to physical and mental health that leisure centres provide, they're not a luxury.

They're not, and as councils and as communities, we've got to look at the wider health outcomes. And for example, our leisure centre is saving around £98 per person per annum in what it does as social value. That's a lot. And work done for the DCN by The King's Fund also over 20 years. What the NHS does not need to spend on people, because it actually helps and they keep physically active, is just incredible.

It just puts it in perspective because we've got those wider societal and economic benefits of dealing with this issue and dealing with it properly, I suppose, rather than tinkering around the edges, if you like. But, obviously, it does need to be paid for and looked at. And as Kier, we recently, last year, we completed the country's first Passivhaus leisure centre in Exeter, which is incredible, but it's not a cheap solution. But certainly I know that over the course of the autumn and the winter, I think they might have had to turn the heating on once, if at all.

In terms of the building fabric, you spoke, Hannah, about the aged stock of a lot of leisure centres and so on. Is there something that we, so contractors like Kier, can do in terms of working with local authorities and other organisations to say, "Look, let's actually come up with a really fundamental strategy for dealing with this stock and dealing with this issue," recognising it might take more time?

I think from a national perspective, it's really hard to give. I personally know that as a sector, we need to have partnerships and work with partners because we just aren't going to be able to deliver everything on our own. I think there is that balance between building a new centre and the brilliant returns you get on that, but there is also then the cost, the outlay, the carbon impact of pulling down a building that already exists. But then you have a more energy efficient building.

But actually then for councils, it's where do you find the capital to do that? And just the cost of construction has spiralled in the last two years. So I think part of it is each council will need to look at each leisure centre and really start to think, "Is retrofitting the way to go? Is a new centre the way to go?" Is it, much as we've done in Epsom and Ewell, said, "Actually, we'll do heat pump. We're going to do solar panels. We're going to reduce the temperature. Actually that's where we are, and then we're going to have a longer term strategy around what we might do with our leisure centre"? So I think everyone's going to have to take it, but I think working with you and your sector is going to be really important in how we address the issues.

Yeah, absolutely. And of course, the funding is essential as well. So I guess there is a funding shortfall right now. What's the impact of that, I suppose, in the immediacy for you, and how can we address that?

The issue is there is a huge deficit and you're looking at stock that has not been placed, not being upgraded over time, and therefore we are going to end up in a situation, I suspect, where some councils have to shut their leisure facilities or reduce them significantly, and that's not anything any council wants to do.

I suppose that really does support the need for industry to get together and collaborate and innovate to think of ways to address this. What's the feeling, then? You've obviously mentioned your residents at Epsom and Ewell and the impact of this on them. Are you hearing from people in the community about the impact that this is having?

The general feeling is quite positive with our centre, but that is because the centre is also taking great steps to offer different programmes and to extend the programmes it's offering to our community. So we have, for example, a play park, and we offer SEN sessions, which are incredibly popular. We offer dementia-friendly swimming sessions, which not only for the person with dementia is incredibly valuable, but the respite it gives to the carer is really important. We also have swimming lessons for all ages. And I mean, at the moment we have just over 2,000 pupils who are on that scheme, which is incredible.

So I think the leisure centre, really, is at the heart of the community and it's trying to do more and more and more to bring people into it. I mean, the other thing I would say is unlike, say, a private members' club, we also offer a lot. I mean, we have a spa, we have a gym. What we're trying to do, and I think a lot of councils are doing this, is looking at the service they provide and diversifying it so they're not just reliant on the leisure aspects, so having a cafe, having different sessions, and that's what we're all doing across the sector.

Absolutely. And yeah, because I guess if the real issue or the fundamental issue is with heating the pools, recognising that you can still obviously use these centres as hubs by thinking about the diversification of that service. You mentioned before we started recording that, actually, you'd had a chat as well with your local leisure centre manager in Epsom and Ewell. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and the general feeling from that?

Yeah. So I mean, just he's just doing a fantastic job, but he's really challenged by the increased costs, and that is a real concern. But what they're doing is looking at the provision, so taking steps now, doing spend to saves and different ways of heating, different ways of lighting, different programmes, getting more people in, looking at a broad range of services. He feels really positive, actually. I mean, he really does.

I think part for him is understanding and seeing the social value the centre brings and the impact it has on the wellbeing of the people that are using it. And I think that the two kind of balance each other, but for all the reasons before around just cost of doing it and also the impact, because knock down one leisure centre and it's your own leisure centre, actually, what do you provide to people in the interim? So it's that it's probably going to be a case as well of making changes, upgrading what we have and working with your sector to say, "Okay, actually, what's going on? What could we be learning? And how does that work for us as opposed to actually we just going to get rid of the whole thing and start again?"

Yeah, absolutely. So it's really, yeah, looking at, I guess, the decarbonization, if you like, of the building with a view to, I guess, making it a healthier building to support the health and wellbeing of your residents. And again, then, that obviously involves getting to grips with all of the various funding arrangements and grants and so on, which are out there for that. But again, that's how the sector can work together to make sense of that and access that.

Yeah. Actually, that's where the District Council Network is so important because they are representing us at a national level. It gives us one voice. Also understanding what the issues are and how we can be working together to get more from it. I mean, I think it's fair to say that district councils are working really hard to improve the health and wellbeing of everybody. I mean, we touch on everybody's lives, and, therefore, through the DCN and their work with government and calling on government for additional funding and to look at how we ensure that we get support for our sector, working with partners such as Kier is really, really critical.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We've obviously been speaking about leisure centres then in terms of the particular challenges that they're facing. Are there any opportunities which you can see emerging that will really help us to get to grips with this?

I think we have to be optimistic. I think like Epsom and Ewell, many councils are really working to introduce those energy efficient processes. You spoke earlier about the Passivhaus leisure centre down in Exeter, but, I mean, there's Sleaford Leisure Centre in North Kesteven, and they're a brilliant example. I mean, they're part of a District Heat Network which has been facilitated by North Kesteven District Council, and they're actually using biomass from the Sleaford Renewable Energy Plant to run the centre. I mean, that's just brilliant, and it's that reusing of things. Or for example, Cherwell in Oxfordshire, they've got an Olympic-sized outdoor swimming pool with solar power. There's definitely hope. Actually, I think as a sector, learning off each other and looking at what everybody's doing is really great.

And then also there's the whole thing as well around social prescribing. I think, again, back to the importance of leisure centres and working with our NHS partners and really providing great outcomes for people is a real benefit of all of society. So I don't feel we should be too down about it, but I do think that we can't be blind to the challenges and that if we and you and the DCN aren't working together and working with central government to say, "Look, we need investment. We need to address these issues. Naturally, the impact of not addressing these issues are greater than just not having a leisure centre, but actually it looks like this," I think we've just got to do that because otherwise we're going to end up in a worse place than we already are.

Well, and like you were saying before, the knock-on effects of not addressing this and not having appropriate leisure centre facilities that that can have in terms of the NHS impacts and all the rest of it, yeah, it's absolutely essential that we pick it up.

But I think it's also, now, I was mentioning earlier about the dementia sessions and the SEN sessions, just somebody having an hour in their day to go and be somewhere, be with other people, to get that time away, away from other things going on. Or for our over sixties, we know that there can be high rates of loneliness in more elderly people, but they still want to be active. Giving that opportunity for people to connect with other people is so important. And I think, again, it's great if people are hitting the gym and they're really fit and healthy, but actually there's that whole thing about mental health and mental wellbeing, which is so important.

In terms of Epsom and Ewell, then, what's your vision for the future? What would be your ideal for your own area?

So for us, I think looking at the sector, looking at how we partner with our leisure centre provider and with others to really be offering more. I think also trying to increase participation and working with the NHS, and their role around social prescribing is going to be really important for us. But I think it, at a more loftier level, I suppose, is there is so much sporting prowess in this country. For here, we have the Surrey Youth Games, Epsom and Ewell Small and Mighty. We do very, very well. But actually using our leisure facilities to actually grow the next Emma Raducanus, the next Adam Peatys, actually, that's really exciting. And I think people get really excited when they see somebody that's been homegrown be really, really successful on the national stage and the national sporting stage because we are a very sport loving nation. And I think then longer term it's our facilities, modernising them, keeping them fit for purpose, but at the same point, doing them in a way that is carbon-neutral, having as little impact as we can on the environment is really important.

I love that. I think that's great. It's just such a great point to finish on as well in terms of just the impact that we can have. Not only is it great in terms of communities, individuals, mental health, physical health and so on, but, yeah, future sporting stars that we can all get behind. Actually, you see these people in the world, so don't forget that everybody has to start somewhere and chances are it's around their local leisure centre.

Absolutely. It's absolutely that.

And so just then as well, just an organisation like Kier, how can we help?

I think reaching out to the sector. I think talking to us, helping us understand what's out there. I'm definitely going to say that doing it in a way that can be a partnership and cost-effective is really important. I think Kier will not be blind to the financial strait that many councils are in, and we are all the time having to balance cost and delivery and future-proofing. And I think understanding that and being able to work with us is really important. I think also just partnership at that national level with the District Council Network, with the Local Government Association, helping, representing us in the conversations you're going to be having at Westminster and others is really, really important because I think many, many voices become one very loud voice and then people really start to hear and understand.

I'm delighted to be joined now by Nick Herd, the Head of Building Services Engineering for Kier's Design Services Business. Your team works a lot with local authority clients and other clients to assess their leisure centres and their assets in terms of looking at potentially where and how they might decarbonize them. Is that right?

We have an in-house team of mechanical, electrical, low-carbon engineers. We've done a lot of work over the last number of years with public sector bodies looking at decarbonization of their estate, and that ranges across different building types, different sectors, and different levels of service as well.

Could you share a little bit about the type of work that you've been doing with various clients in this area and maybe share some examples of where what we've done has made a difference?

Yes. Yeah, certainly. We were appointed by the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority to develop a heat decarbonization plan for 52 buildings across the Liverpool region. And that encompassed iconic listed buildings such as Liverpool St. George's Hall and Wallasey Town Hall, all the way through to local libraries, office buildings, sports centres, and bus stations. And within there, in the context of this discussion, there was six sports centres with pool facilities.

What we find when we do that kind of programme is that for local authorities, typically the leisure centres, and particularly those with pool facilities, they tend to have the largest carbon footprint within local authority estates and associated, obviously, high energy costs as well. Now, at a macro level, that's due very much simply because of the large energy demand for pool heating and domestic hot water usage for the changing and showering facilities. But at a more micro level, it can also be significantly influenced by the design of the pool water systems, how much water is lost from the system, what the filtration efficiency is, air change rates through the building and so on. There is a whole range of items to consider when you're looking at those buildings.

Due to the high heat demand of pool facilities, it was quite common practise to target energy efficiency in those situations by the installation of combined heat and power plants because there was a decent steady heat load that supported that. Combined heat and power, or CHP, it's very much now a non-preferred solution that wouldn't attract grant funding these days. And we're commonly seeing that where those units have been installed either alongside or in place of gas fired boilers, they've fallen out of use due to the technical complexity of the units and typically quite high maintenance costs. So they are commonly being removed also and replaced now with air source heat pumps and solar systems basically to displace the gas fossil fuel usage.

So could you just give me a summary, Nick, of the types of challenges that local authorities who have leisure centres might be coming to us with?

They have squeezed revenue budgets, so they've got very conflicting priorities for the limited funds that they have available, and that gives them a heightened focus on energy and maintenance costs. I think they recognise that they need to move down that carbon reduction pathway and need to better understand what the technical solutions are and how they play out in terms of capital funding and in terms of payback.

Typically, they don't have enough of the right internal resource or expertise to identify what those solutions are or to identify and fully follow through on the grant funding options. We find that there is a relatively poor knowledge or incomplete records for existing building stock. So it does rely quite heavily on us deploying experienced building surveyors and engineers out to survey those buildings in the field rather than relying on documentary evidence.

How do you see this developing, this area of the market? Do you see innovations coming over the hill? Do you see more funding becoming available? Do you see the need for these types of projects growing?

We are seeing this market accelerating at the moment. Typically, on roughly, as I say, a 12 monthly basis, the government announces a new round of grant funding availability and how much is going to be available. The demand for those funds is increasing significantly, and the people who are secure in this are typically those who are bringing good projects to the fore. So grant applications that are underpinned with a good level of research, a good level of understanding and definition of the problem, and the solutions are well-costed.

The grant funding bodies, which it's administered through Salix, what they are looking for are two things. One is the optimal capital cost per tonne of carbon saved, but probably almost more important than that is a strong confidence that schemes that they award funding to can actually be delivered and deliver the benefits within the timelines that are expected. So well-developed schemes are key, and that's where we can significantly support and have been doing with the likes of Liverpool City Region in doing their upfront surveys, heat decarbonization plans, feasibility studies.

So to continue our conversation around leisure centres and the challenges which many local authorities are facing with keeping them running, I'm really pleased to be joined now by Joe O'Connell. So, Joe, you were project manager at our St. Sidwell's Point project in Exeter last year, which is actually the UK's first Passivhaus leisure centre. Can you just explain to us what we mean when we say that?

To achieve the Passivhaus standard in the UK, the construction firms, generally, you have to meet a certain requirement. So for example, that's high levels of installation, an airtight building fabric. And the aim is to achieve a building which is thermally bridge free or as close to, and then mechanical ventilation systems with very high efficient heat recovery systems. So it's a sort of holistic approach to the building, and ultimately it's also about constructing a building to exemplary building standards.

Yeah. So it sounds highly technical. Do you know anything about the drivers behind the decision of Exeter Council to go down that route?

Exeter City Council have been at the forefront of the Passivhaus movement for more than 10 years now, and they've actually built more than 10,000 residential houses in their own stock down here. So they're well-acquainted to Passivhaus and all the benefits of that. And the leisure centre, because it's got swimming pools, really does lend itself towards the Passivhaus ethos because the swimming pools, there are four swimming pools at St. Sidwell's. It's a 25-metre competition pool, 20-metre learner pool, and there are a couple of smaller trainer pools. And swimming pools use gigantic amounts of energy to heat the water, as you can probably imagine.

It was an obvious choice to make because there are a number of leisure centres throughout the country at the moment that are really struggling to keep their facilities open because they can't afford the spiralling energy costs. The SSP Leisure Centre has now been open for just over a year, and they only actually introduced any heat into the water... So bearing in mind that, for example, the 25-metre poolhas nearly a million litres of water in it. So it's been open for almost a year and they've only just started putting any energy into the pool. So the only heat source that's been put into the water, nearly a million litres of water, is the heat coming off the bathers using the pool and some thermal gain through the Dutch wood glazing.

Thank you to all our guests for their time and sharing their expertise. I'll be back next month with a new episode. In the meantime, don't forget to hit the subscribe button on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can also visit kier.co.uk/podcast to find out more.