Want to be the first to hear about Season 2 of Made For Us? Subscribe to our newsletter for the latest updates and exclusive content.

This week's episode:

For decades, dancers of colour at classical ballet companies have used makeup to dye their pink pointe shoes a darker shade to match their skin tone. My guest this week, award-winning ballerina Cira Robinson, tells me about the day she got tired of ‘pancaking’ and asked the renowned shoemaker Freed of London to make a pair of brown pointe shoes for her. 

What we discuss in this episode:

• Cira’s experience with the Dance Theatre of Harlem under the legendary Arthur Mitchell
• Her move to London to join Ballet Black
• The role pointe shoes play in a dancer’s life and the need for customisation
• How she worked with Freed and Ballet Black to create inclusive pointe shoes and the impact they've had

If you liked this episode, it would be great if you could leave a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to help others discover the show. This is the first of two episodes on inclusive pointe shoes. Be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss my interview with Cassa Pancho, founder of Ballet Black, in a few weeks! 

---

About Cira Robinson 

Born in Cincinnati, Ohio, Cira began her ballet career as an apprentice with the Dance Theatre of Harlem’s Dancing Through Barriers Ensemble. After a few months, she became a full member and danced many works from the DTH repertoire under the guidance of Arthur Mitchell.

She joined Ballet Black in London in 2008 and in 2013 was nominated for Outstanding Classical Female at the Critics Circle National Dance Awards. While at Ballet Black, Cira worked with the company and with Freed of London to create the first Brown and Bronze pointe shoe for dancers of colour. After retiring in 2022, she took up a new role as Director of the Yorkshire Ballet Seminars.

Follow Cira on Instagram: @ciraoslynn

---

Connect with Made for Us

• Show notes and transcripts: https://made-for-us.captivate.fm/ 
• Newsletter: https://madeforuspodcast.beehiiv.com/subscribe 
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/madeforuspodcast 
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/madeforuspodcast/ 

CR 0:00

We're not taking away from the European pink shoe. We're not taking away anything, we're adding to it. We're adding to the artform.

TS 0:08

Welcome to Made For Us, a podcast about the intersection of innovation and inclusion. It's for anyone who's curious about how to develop products that work better for all of us. I'm your host Tosin Sulaiman.

When Cira Robinson joined the Dance Theatre of Harlem, a company of mostly black and brown ballet dancers, she was introduced to a ritual passed down by elders since the Nineteen seventies. Each dancer was taught how to apply makeup foundation to every inch of their pink satin pointe shoes to achieve an unbroken line from hip to toe. Cira continued with that ritual known as pancaking when she moved to the UK to join another dance company Ballet Black. One day she decided she'd had enough.

CR 0:49

So I felt like money was being wasted. I was exhausted pancaking multiple shoes in a day, it's just like ugh, only to kill them in a couple of hours.

TS 0:59

With the backing of Ballet Black's founder Casa Pancho she asked her favorite pointe shoe maker Freed of London to make a brown shoe for her. In Twenty Eighteen, Freed and Ballet Black launched the UK's first line of inclusive pointe shoes. Since then, other dancewear brands have done the same after coming under the social media spotlight. In today's episode, Cira talks about her role in creating the shoes with Freed, the true cost of pancaking and the changes afoot in the world of classical ballet. Here's our conversation.

CR 1:33

I'm originally from Cincinnati, Ohio, at eighteen years old, I moved to New York to dance with the Dance Theatre of Harlem for about four years. And in Two thousand and eight, I ventured over the pond to join Ballet Black here in London. And I've danced with them for about fourteen years. And in December of Twenty twenty-two I retired and I am now the current director of a dance school called Yorkshire Ballet Seminars.

TS 2:01

So tell us about how you first discovered ballet. And when did you realize that this was something that you could do professionally?

CR 2:08

Wow. So growing up as a kid, I always enjoyed musicals and anything that had dancing in it and a big grand number, but I never thought that I'd be a dancer. It came about when I wanted to audition for a performing arts elementary school, and they had dance and drama and art. And then there was an opportunity to audition for a bigger school. And I originally wanted to be an actress. So I went in for the drama audition, and completely bombed. Well, I thought I did great, but I didn't get it. And the next audition was the dance audition, and I had some shorts and a baggy t shirt. And they did a couple of exercises. And I was able to do them. And that was my major, I got into the school based on dance. And actually, it was just something that I happened to like and do well. I think it wasn't until I was maybe 14 where I really started to understand and and fathom the idea of possibly doing this as a career.

And at fifteen, I went to New York for my first summer program at Dance Theatre of Harlem. And that's where I was introduced to brown tights and brown shoes, and just the whole wearing our nude versus the other nude and how it completed the line. And what pink tights did for the white students is what the brown tights did for kids of color, which is elongate the line from hip to toe, how it should be. Yeah, and I've been over here in the UK since Two thousand and eight, with Ballet Black, which is targeted and here for dancers of color, black and Asians who are the lowest level of representation in the dance world in this country.

TS 4:00

So you got to the end of high school and by that point you decided that you wanted to pursue ballet as a career. So what did you do next?

CR 4:09

I got the opportunity to move to New York after the summer program in Two thousand and four when I was eighteen to join an ensemble dancing group at the Dance Theatre of Harlem so it wasn't with the company it was kind of an ensemble, like a small performing group. And yeah, we performed all around I guess the tri state area and worked with Arthur Mitchell who was the founder of Dance Theatre of Harlem and working with him was just a monumental time in my life. He was extremely hard and stern but I realized that that's what I needed as a dancer - as a as a dancer of color - to go into this world that is originally not meant for us. I think we have to fight a bit harder to stand in this art form and show that we deserve to be here you know, because unfortunately it's sometimes not about your technique and your ability, because they just see our skin color at first and that can kind of knock us down at times.

But then with the Dance Theatre of Harlem, a black man who was the first dancer of color in the New York City Ballet under George Balanchine, he, he's been through all of that he understands the tough skin that we have to have what we need to do to kind of put our foot down and let the world know that we deserve to be here. And I've he's instilled that in me and in any other dancer who's come across. And coming to this country in Two thousand and eight, you know, I held my own and being with Ballet Black, you know what I mean, they had my back, I had theirs. And I knew that ballet was just one of my purposes. But another, which was heavy on my back was to be the representation that this country needed.

TS 5:49

Yeah, there's lots to unpack there. I'm curious about why you decided to join the Dance Theatre of Harlem. Was there a point in your career where you realized that perhaps the opportunities for you as a black dancer would be different to that of a white dancer,

CR 6:03

You know what, I feel like I can honestly say that I didn't feel discriminated against. In Cincinnati, I was always with other black kids, there were white kids, it was just a melting pot. Because, you know, our school that we went to a performing arts school, it was downtown Cincinnati, you know, there was drugs sold around the corner, there was rich kids, poor kids, it was just a melting pot. I think the more I got into ballet, there was a difference as far as technique between me and some of the other black girls. But those black girls were sometimes told, oh, you should go to modern, you should take your pointe shoes off, you should do this kind of dance just because of your body type. And I never really understood that or it never really affected me. So I mean, I never took anything too seriously back then. And I wasn't really affected racially, to where I thought about being a black woman in the dance world too much. You know, it wasn't until, like I said, I moved to this country.

But also knew that there was a responsibility when I did go to New York and the weight that the Dance Theatre of Harlem had in the country and actually in the world. It was founded after Martin Luther King Jr's assassination. So it was kind of a statement in the States, as well as in the dance world, as well as in Harlem, you know what I mean, to have a ballet company, full of black dancers, you know, in classical ballet, it was something different. A lot of the dance companies in New York are all downtown. But to have something in Harlem, which was the hood basically, was something monumental, but I knew that I wanted to go there, because the fascination with beautiful brown bodies, that were able to do these beautiful things, and that was the representation that I had. I think a lot of people - I can't speak for everyone - but a lot of dancers in the past, you know, they say, you know, I haven't seen anyone who looks like me, you know, so it's hard to even fathom becoming that, but I had loads of dark skinned ballerinas, beautiful women to look up to, women and men to look up to so the idea of not becoming a ballerina because of my color never really passed my mind at that time. And Dance Theatre of Harlem gave me that and let me know that that dream could be accomplished because I saw it every single day. So if anything, going into Dance Theatre of Harlem felt like home.

TS 8:38

And what were the highlights of your time with the company?

CR 8:41

Oh wow. So much. Firstly, working with Arthur Mitchell. He's since passed away, but working with him and just gaining as much knowledge as possible from him, and also performed at the Guggenheim Museum, at the Kennedy Center. Just being on stage in my brown tights, brown shoes, unapologetically being a black woman, I'd have braids in my hair, sometimes an afro but just being accepted was I think, the biggest highlight even though it was every single day, but also being I was eighteen when I moved there, eighteen, nineteen in New York City, doing what I love being paid for it. During like the high time of New York City excitement. It was just a really good time.

TS 9:30

So let's talk about pointe shoes and the role they play in your life as a dancer. Can you tell us a bit about your experience?

CR 9:38

Oh completely. It actually started at fifteen when I went to Dance Theatre of Harlem. There's this process called pancaking and everyone has to do it because nobody in the world is European pink. You use foundation, makeup foundation to color your pink shoes to match your skin tone. And you know you do that with the soft shoes, you do it with pointe shoes you do it, no matter what, because there wasn't a shoe that was made for us, dancers of color, at least a darker hue. You know, I think in the past ten, fifteen years, they've come out, I'll say fifteen years, with a nude ballet slipper. But that nude isn't necessarily my nude. So no matter what we would have to make our shoes darker. And that's a matter of applying makeup. I've done that for years. One of the elders at Dance Theatre of Harlem taught me how someone taught them. It's a ritual, it's very personal, your pointe shoes are a part of you, they're an extension of you. So you need to treat them as such, the color has to be right, we have to sew it, sew the elastic and the ribbon on and tailor it. So it fits like a glove. It's an extension of you.

So I've been pancaking my shoes for years. And in this country, I wear Freed of London brand. They're world renowned. But there's, the original company is in Covent Garden. And I went in one day, and I was just tired of pancaking. It is tedious, it's messy and breaks down the life of the shoe. Because ultimately, you're putting liquid on a satin shoe, you know, on satin, and cardboard, it's a matter of time before it just becomes mush. So I felt like money was being wasted. I was exhausted pancaking multiple shoes in a day is just like ugh, only to kill them in a couple of hours. I went into Freed of London, and I saw purple shoes, blue shoes, red shoes, all these other shoes on display. And I inquired about, you know, if I wanted a brown shoe, could that happen? You know, do you have any brown swatches? And one of the workers she said, No, we don't. And she's like, you know, well, if you can find the satin, and then we'll see what we can do. So I took my friend, who is a fashion designer went to the fabric district, and went to about five different shops and like the browns just were not what I like them to be, they they weren't matching my color, you know, so I was just like, forget it, it was an idea. And she's like, No, let's go to two more. I was just like, I'm exhausted, you know, all this for a pointe shoe, it's fine. She was like, let's go. So I went into one. And the color was getting better. And I was like, let me have the sample, thank you. And then I went into another one. And there was this perfect brown. And I was just like, this is perfect.

So I took the swatches into work the next day, at Ballet Black and I was telling my director what I wanted to do, and the idea that I had, and she was like, hold up, you shouldn't have to go around and find a satin, you know what I mean? And so she got in contact with Freed of London. And before I know it, the prototypes were being made and different examples of shoes. And you know, it's just so funny how sometimes people think any brown will work for anyone, the first shoe I got was almost charcoal. I was like no, no, no, this isn't this isn't me. And this is nowhere near what I gave you, you know, but also saying that, you know, the, the satin has to be special, you know, it has to be strong. And I think the satin swatch that I got is literally for you know, dresses and clothes. So we went through at least four or five different shades of browns until they found the perfect one. And Freed of London launched their Ballet Brown and Ballet Bronze pointe shoes, and it feels good because I can kind of say it's because of me, just wanting to, just being tired. And that's the thing. It's tedious. It's personal. It's all those things. It's our ritual pancake in our shoes, but it is it takes up a lot of time. So to have a pointe shoe that you can just slip on and go, It feels like we're a step closer to being accepted. Having our own shoe just feels like okay, the door is opening a little bit more for us.

Yeah, I mean, that's a great story. And I definitely want to talk a bit more about that collaboration with Freed. But was just curious about pancaking because you said it's time consuming. You have to go through a lot of shoes. So can you talk a bit about how long it actually takes to pancake a pair of shoes. And I know that ballet dancers go through tons of shoes each year. So like how many shoes are you pancaking each year?

Oh, my goodness. I could probably start in a month. I'll say about twelve to fifteen in a month just to kind of be ready for the next day. It all depends also on the role. The more you're on pointe, I mean, I have been in a rehearsal and I completely kill a shoe in two hours, if the role demands that much. I'll say, I will go through about maybe two or three shoes a week. And that's on a light week, you know, where it's just class and then maybe an hour of rehearsal, and then you know, the day is done. But it's, it depends on how much you're sweating in the shoe. You know how much you're manipulating the shoe, pounding the shoe. So every time is a bit different. But, you know, as far as pancaking the shoe, I'm extremely meticulous, there needs to be no pink shown. So I'm in all the crevices, I'm in all the creases, you know, it has to be completely perfect. And nothing disturbs me more than a half pancaked shoe. You know what I mean? Because it is a part of you. So the pancaking process for me would take about 30 to 45 minutes. And that doesn't seem like a long time, maybe to anyone, but it's a lot when you're sitting in position and your back is hunched over and you're just in this shoe, just evaluating every single detail and trying to get it right, and then having it dry, and then maybe applying another coat, and then having to do the ribbon and elastic, because those are pink as well. Yeah, so I'll say the whole process is about an hour.

And if you're doing that for twelve to fifteen shoes a month, which is over one hundred shoes a year. I mean, that time does add up. And then if you if you also multiply that over the course of your career, that's, you know, hundreds of hours,

it's a lot of time and you know, the shoes aren't cheap, I was fortunate enough to not have to pay for the shoes, because Ballet Black purchased them, but still someone had to buy them. And it's not cheap.

So I just did a quick calculation, I was just trying to figure out like how many hours you spent pancaking your shoes, assuming it's 12 pairs of shoes a month, over the course of a year, multiplied by, say your career is 10 years, that's 1440 hours, essentially over a 10 year period, and you've had more than 10 years of your career.

That's a part of the career. It's a part of the career. And actually, it's so crazy. Some people pay people to do it for them, which is understandable. But again, like it's for me a part of the ritual. It's very personal. The pancaking of the shoes. Yes, is tedious. Yes, it's a lot of time. But that used to be my meditation, because they're precious, I have to treat these things well that are going to carry me through and allow me to do what I love to do. So a certain amount of care and caution and intent. That sounds super drastic, but it for me, that's everything that went into my pointe shoes.

I wanted to talk about the move to Ballet Black. What inspired that move?

New York was fine. It was great. There was nothing really wrong. But you know, when there's something in you, that's yearning for some sort of change. And that's exactly what was happening. And it was teetering on the point of I could stay in New York and have this life that's, you know, great. Or I could just nose dive off of this cliff and see what happens. And I was at the point of, I'm ready to nosedive, you know what I mean?

Can you talk about some of the differences that you noticed, being a black dancer in the UK versus the US?

I mean, a name like Ballet Black isn't quiet. It's kind of, it was definitely in your face. And since there is a lack of diversity in this country, in the ballet world, you know, you have to have a couple of colors sprinkled here or there, you know, in the, in the country and dance companies, but it's nowhere near enough. And with Ballet Black it's all brown faces, brown and black faces, you know, and there's always someone saying, you know, isn't that segregation, and I remember someone tweeted, years ago, you know, about me, and it's like, you know, she's a monkey dancing on stage. And I was like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God, and they were from this country. And it's just like, wow, wow.

That's shocking.

It's shocking. It's shocking. And it's the whole, sometimes it gets into the whole What about us sort of thing and it's like, ballet is yours ,like, and also having a brown shoe, when the brown shoe came out I feel like all hell broke loose. Because people were like, Oh, it's nothing new. There's black shoes all over the place and they would literally post a black shoe and it's like, no, you know, we're not taking away from the European pink shoe. We're not taking away anything. We're we're adding to it. We're adding to the artform. we're not taking away, we're not taking the spotlight from anyone you know, I mean, we're showing that there should be diversity in ballet.

And to be honest, I feel like no one started really talking about diversity in ballet until George Floyd. And I'm like, that's Twenty twenty, you guys are so late. You know, you're so late, now you care. Now you care about programs, outreach programs to help children of color. Now you care about having more people of color in your dance company, this has been going on for years, but now it's amplified. The amount of backlash and I'll say disdain, that Ballet Black got throughout the years, it's like, Okay, now that the world got called out, it's accepted. And people, you know, are knocking down Cassa Pancho's door to try to figure out what the secret is to get black dancers and black audience members. And it's like, there's no secret. It's acceptance. It's, it's not being so traditional sometimes, to be welcoming. Sometimes the ballet world is not welcoming to people who look like us. And that's something that drastically needs to change. And although people say that, you know, things are a lot better than they used to be, we've still got work to do. Because it's no longer about us. It's about the next generation who should not be feeling this way. You should be able to do whatever you love, no matter what you look like, and it just be accepted.

So were you the first person to ask Freed for a pair of brown ballet shoes.

As far as I know. Yes, I was the only person who inquired about a brown pointe shoe being made. Pointe shoes come in different makes, by different makers like Nike, Adidas, Reebok. So there's a company called Gaynor Minden. And they were actually the very first before Freed, they were the first company to do different shades of brown. But it's a particular shoe. The bottom of the shoe is extremely strong. And it's made of a hard plastic, which is unlike any other pointe shoe, so specific feet need to go in those shoes. But they were the only ones in the past, I don't know twenty, thirty years to make different color pointe shoes and sell it worldwide. Initially, when I asked I did feel there was a bit of pushback. And I sometimes you need someone in your corner to fight for you a bit louder. And I believe Cassa Pancho was that person because if it was just me, I don't think they would have taken me extremely seriously, or it would have been executed.

Also, it's a bit sad, because the excitement of it has died down. There was a point where it was displayed in the in the windows. And, you know, a couple years ago, at least during the pandemic, it's like, oh, they're back at the corner collecting dust. So it seemed like a short lived promotion, although they're still sold everywhere, I feel like it still needs, it's important that it needs to continue to be in the forefront. And I'm not just saying that because I had a hand in making it. It's important, you know, and since Twenty twenty, pandemic, George Floyd, and during that time, a lot of dancers of color started calling out their directors and the racism and just the lack of diversity. And so a lot of companies have been being held accountable for their lack of inclusion and things like that. So a lot has been changing since then. And also with the dance shoes, pretty much every single maker now has a brown or brown shoe out. So I think Freed kind of kick started that. And now everyone else has followed suit, and rightfully so.

And I believe Bloch also released a line of shoes after they were requested by Eric Underwood, who when he was a soloist at the Royal Ballet.

Yes, correct. Now those are flat shoes, soft slippers. So there's pointe shoes, which we stand on our toes, the hard ones that I want to say ballerinas used because men can wear them as well. But you would typically see women in them and they're standing on their tippy toes. Now the shoes that Eric had a hand in making, those are ballet slippers, which we all wear. We all have ballet slippers, you know, we put on those shoes before we put on our pointe shoes in a ballet class. So once those shoes came out, it was like, thank heavens, there's something a lot closer to us for us, you know, but again, it wasn't everyone's color. It was a lot closer, it was better than nothing. But, you know, there was still an aspect of pancaking that needed to happen. But again, any step closer to having something that kind of suits us and is for us is better than nothing and Eric making that shoe was definitely monumental and a step in the right direction in which we needed to go.

What else can be done to encourage people of all backgrounds to take up ballet, because shoes are just one part of the puzzle, right? When it comes to increasing representation of dancers of color.

You know, I feel like it's a two way street, I still do believe that representation is a big thing you need to see someone who looks like you or is from your background or identifies with you, in those positions showing you that it is possible. And on the flip side, the establishment needs to be a lot more welcoming. They need to show that hey, this can be for you. If you put in the dedication, time, and passion, you could be a dancer, you know what I mean. And also, it's, it's up to the parents, it needs to be a family affair, I feel the family needs to feel included and that their child is in good hands. And the proper amount of nurturing and mentorship is there. Because when people think of ballet, they think of tutus, pointe shoes, Europeans and things have definitely changed. You know, we've we've always been here, maybe not in the limelight. But we need to show that this is for everyone. And there are some people out there who don't want to see a change. And I think there needs to be a new wave of modern thinkers and leaders to show that ballet is for everyone, and who care about the next generation and who care about what the companies look alike. And who cares about who's on stage representing who, because no matter what, there will be a child out there in the audience, looking up at that dancer in admiration, and hopefully wanting to be that person, or at least be inspired or intrigued by the beauty and art form that that is ballet.

Speaking of the next generation, you're now director of Yorkshire ballet seminars and you're training young dancers. Can you talk about why you decided to take up that role? And what's the impact that you'd like to have?

I taught for Yorkshire Ballet Seminars since Two thousand and eighteen for the past few summers. And I've always admired the vibe. I like to call Yorkshire Ballet seminars, a melting pot. I felt like, I feel as though no matter what school the kids are from, they come together and it's literally about the love of dance. My purpose and what I'd like to see more is more kids of color. Now, we do have a decent number every summer, but it can always be more. And at Yorkshire Ballet seminars, we're merely the middleman. So it's up to the vocational schools, it's up to the non vocational schools. It's up to where the kids go when they're not with us. But it's about getting those numbers up. So we need to figure out what's happening in those establishments and why more kids of color aren't going through there, what's not happening, what's not attracting more dancers of color to go into ballet or to stay into ballet. And I believe that's the mentorship. You know, not saying that dancers of color need to be treated differently. But I think a certain level of intent needs to come with the training.

I didn't come from a lot of money. My mother did everything that she could. I wouldn't be here without her sacrifices. I wouldn't be here without someone looking at me saying oh, she could do this. I'm gonna invest in her and not even financial investment it's literally an hour after a ballet class, it's literally a little bit of coaching in the corner. You know, it's this extra attention to feel secure in the ballet world with all the other insecurities that's wrapped into being a kid and definitely a kid of color.

That was Cira Robinson of Yorkshire Ballet Seminars. You can learn more about Cira in the show notes. If you enjoyed today's conversation, look out for my interview with Cassa Pancho, the founder of Ballet Black in a future episode. And please do share the podcast with someone who would enjoy it. I'm Tosin Sulaiman. Thanks for joining me on Made for Us.

Transcribed with the help of https://otter.ai