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Habits of a Highly Effective COO - Ben Marchal
Episode 7 • 11th November 2023 • RevOps FM • Justin Norris
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Benjamin Marchal is perhaps the most effective revenue operator I've ever met.

We work together, and so I've been fortunate to collaborate with Ben often. I've learned a ton from studying him in action.

However I wanted to go deeper into exactly how he's so effective while shouldering massive responsibility as COO of a $50 million ARR company.

We go deep into his vision of operations and unpack the mindset, routines, and methodologies that help him be successful.

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About Today's Guest

Benjamin Marchal is COO of 360Learning, a learning platform that enables companies to upskill from within by turning their experts into champions for employee, customer, and partner growth.

Ben worked at McKinsey for two years before joining 360Learning, where he started as an Operations Manager and progressed to become COO in 4 years.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjamin-marchal-89a01180/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [01:15] - Ben's vision of operations. Ops exists to help each team perform better today and to be ready for the future. Four key activities. 1) Source of truth for KPIs. 2) Identifying improvement areas. 3) Helping teams implement those improvements. 4) Maintaining and running the business.
  • [02:38] - How Ops teams can balance taking requests from teams they support with proactively pursuing strategic improvements. If Ops teams don't monitor KPIs, then they are stuck in implementation mode and don't partake in strategic discussions. Conversely if they focus solely on strategy, they become disconnected from the field and fail. Both are important.
  • [05:34] - How Ops teams can make time for reviewing KPIs. Ben looks at them first thing every morning. Creates a sense of ownership. The need to create a KPI tree (first, second, third-level metrics). Creates a clear picture of where to focus efforts. This enables strategic discussion with executives and ability to push back on requests. Importance of being fact-based, rational, agnostic.
  • [11:24] - Ben's experience at McKinsey and how it's impacted him. Types of projects at McKinsey. The onboarding experience.
  • [16:48] - Ben's journey at 360Learning, going from Operations Manager to COO. Development of incentives models. Working in Customer Success Ops, fixing churn. Demonstrated that applying the McKinsey model to in-house operations worked well. Began to coach the Operations team. Building the data team. Creating the business plan - demonstrated that he understood the business end-to-end, more exposure to investors and the Board. Move to COO. He isn't a functional expert in every scope, but his job is to make sure the company works on the right things.
  • [22:19] - Ben's mindset and whether it's evolved as he's gained more responsibility. He believes the mindset has been the same. Four critical things: 1) Being low ego, agnostic. Focused on data and what it shows. 2) Being both big picture and granular at the same time. 3) Ability to cut through noise and prioritize. 4) Ability to communicate at different levels. These are all things he learned at McKinsey.
  • [26:10] - Looking at a practical example of how Ben prioritizes, given the huge scope of problems that he is responsible for. He thinks about the business in three main areas - demand creation, conversion, and retention. (Product is present in all three.) He identifies what is working well and what is not, then considers what will drive most value for the company using an impact/feasibility matrix.
  • [28:55] - Challenges of applying this in practice. Justin notes that Ben is also highly responsive to communication, which isn't typical of all execs. Ben explains how he uses a notebook to prioritize the main topics he needs to care about. For "must-do" items, he blocks time in his calendar.
  • [31:16] - Ben's point of view on go-to-market strategy. First, need product market fit. second, identify who you are selling to - ICP. Could be industry, or size, or use-case. Identify the personas within those companies. Third, how to get the product in front of those people - inbound, outbound, etc.
  • [36:31] - Importance of qualitative feedback. Ben listens to a lot of calls. KPIs tell you what is happening, calls and voice of the customer tells you why it's happening. Both are important ways of discovering reality.
  • [38:53] - Challenges of being an international company. Differences in business culture between France and North America.
  • [43:36] - How the tech world will evolve going forward now that capital is less available.

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Transcripts

Justin Norris:

to RevOps FM everyone.

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today's guest is a special one for me

because it's someone I work with who was

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actually my boss until about a month ago.

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Benjamin Marchal is Chief Operations

Officer here at 360 Learning.

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He started his career in finance.

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as a strategy consultant

for a few years at McKinsey.

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And then for the last five years, he's

been here at 360 learning where I work.

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And moved from being an individual

contributor on the ops team to being

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one of the key executives in the

company and really who has a huge amount

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of responsibility for its success.

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I've asked Ben on the show, uh,

selfishly actually, because as you'll

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see, he's, incredibly intelligent

and incredibly effective in his role.

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And when I meet someone who is

super effective in that way, who

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has some kind of special skillset,

my process is I try to absorb that

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skill set and level myself up.

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So for me, it's not about what they

know, it's about how they think.

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goal here is really to unpack that

mindset, internalize ways of working,

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use that to make myself better.

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that's my goal.

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And Ben, you're possibly

now, uh, reconsidering your

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decision to chat with me,

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Ben Marchal: No, thanks

for, thanks for having me.

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Very happy to do it.

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Justin Norris: Awesome.

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I wanna start out with big

picture first principles.

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is operations type question because,

points of context that I think

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it's useful listeners to know.

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Ops has a very significant

and prominent role within 360

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Learning and its way of working.

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We can talk about that, but more so I

think than I've seen at any other company.

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And, vision of ops here is a, it

feels different to me also than what

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I've seen at many other companies.

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And I think clearly you've,

you've had a role in driving that.

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So I'm curious, your vision of operation?

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How do you define the,

mandate and the rule?

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Ben Marchal: that's a great question I

think the role of ops is to help each

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team in the company perform better,

know, today, this year, and be ready for

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future, the next quarter, the next year.

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That's the two.

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I would say items in the ops

responsibility and how we do it.

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do four things.

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The first one is we are, source of truth

for the KPIs, benchmark data, you know,

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Uh, having this factual knowledge of where

the team is versus where the market is.

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Second, we always try to

understand where we can improve.

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So identify, you know,

opportunities for improvement.

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Third, we help the team and the leader of

the team implement those recommendation.

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So that's where the

processes, the tools comes in.

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And then force, we help them maintain

and run, you know, the business.

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So I'd say that's really to me,

the mission and how we do it.

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in the ops team at 360 and I think

how any ops team should run probably,

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Justin Norris: many ops teams

end up as service departments.

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So they may have mandate in mind, but,

they're fielding a lot of requests.

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And You have, team that you're

supporting and that team is coming to

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you and asking you to do some stuff.

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And at the same time, you are also going

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to them and asking them to do some

stuff because you're identifying

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things that, you think should

change or you think should improve.

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And inevitably it's really

easy to just get into that.

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Like, I'm, I have so many

things coming my way.

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I don't even have time to think

about the things that they should

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do and, and go back the other way.

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do you think about

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that balance?

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Ben Marchal: it's a great

question and I think it's always

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a, it's always a challenge.

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It's never solved, but, I think If

you get stuck in that mindset of,

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you know, being flooded by request

of the business and, and being always

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working on tools and processes, it's

probably you stuck, you are stuck in

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the third, uh, responsibility of ops,

which is, you know, to help implement,

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processes and tools and you didn't take

time before build this framework to

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monitor the KPIs and, you know, to be

the source of truth for the business.

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So they are not coming to you

proactively to ask, okay, where we are.

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That is where we could be,

that, where the market is.

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So you're not in that discussion.

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So you arrive too late and you're stuck in

the third, which is just implementation.

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So probably it's a question of

how you manage to create your

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ops team and how you position it

versus the team you are serving.

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you don't manage to get in those

strategic discussions, you are just

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only going to be in the implementation.

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The risk that I see.

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If you only focus on the, on the strategic

aspect of the role, can also be too

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far from the field and, and therefore,

you know, disconnect from the field and

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fail implement what you're trying to do.

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And we've seen that at 360 as well.

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you, you know, you start to take too

much out of the VP responsibility,

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then you lose the buy-in of

the VP you're working with.

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then you struggle to

also to have an impact.

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So that's the two risk.

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I, I think for ANS team is to try to be

too strategic and take too much of the

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VP or you're working with or being

only an implementation team because

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you failed to take a step back,

look at the KPIs and ask yourself,

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you know, what are the priorities?

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Justin Norris: I am glad you

mentioned that because certainly

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felt risk of, being too, too process

oriented or, being too reactive.

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but I hadn't yet articulated to myself the

other risks that you mentioned of, taking

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away to, like, I, I thought of it in the

sense of like, if I'm doing all these

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things, like what, what are the teams

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actually doing?

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Like, you know what I mean?

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Like, almost starts to feel like

you're doing their job and, is

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a very difficult line to walk.

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something that you said that kind of had

a clue for me was, at the KPIs and being

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like, one of the key pillars of, how we

work here is around being impact oriented.

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And I think that's actually really people

who've been in a mode of executing, who've

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been tactical for a very long time, who

are used to think, tell me what you want.

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And I'm an expert at parsing those

requirements, figuring out how

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to do them really, really well.

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And that's an important skill.

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but the idea of actually going

proactively and looking at KPIs

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is kind of foreign to them.

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How would, like super tactical

as an ops person, how should

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they try to balance that?

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Like, should they just block time?

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In their calendar, look at KPIs every day.

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Like how do you, you are

always tuned into our metrics.

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That's one of the things

that impresses me about you.

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And where do you, how

do you find that time?

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How do you do that as a habit?

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Ben Marchal: so just, just myself.

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the first thing I do when I open my,

uh, computer, to be honest, is to

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check the few metrics I care about.

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That's the first thing I do when

I open my computer in the morning.

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I always look at, for me right now, SQLs.

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Where we are in the booking versus

the target, the conversion rate,

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the forecast of the conversion rate,

because that's what I look at right now.

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So I think every ops person, whatever

the scope they're covering, should have

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the same routine every morning probably,

or whenever you want that daily look

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at the main KPIs of the team you are

looking at and ask yourself, you know,

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where are we versus where we should be?

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That's, I think, the critical, uh, Part.

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And when I was in customer success

ops, that's what I was doing the

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same every morning, looking at churn

forecast, looking at advocacy, G two

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reviews, reading them, et cetera.

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So I think the routine is really

important so that you start to feel

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that you own the metrics as well.

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The team are owning the metric, but you

also are owning the metric, you know?

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And it's this sense of ownership,

which I think is critical.

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if you don't feel that you own, you know

that the k p i the most important k p

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i the team you're working with, don't

feel like you're owning them and you

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can have an impact on them, then it's

gonna be tough, I think, to be seen by

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the business as a real business partner.

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That's the first part to your question.

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The second thing I wanted to say, because

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I thought of something before,

was, there, there is a question

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of how you position the sti.

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I think first it's important

to take incoming requests.

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To create the buy-in and show

your, you know, your, value to

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the team you're working with.

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I think that's how I did it at 360

when I was doing customer success

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ops, I started by being really open to

any resource, but in the back, I was

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already starting to implement, you know,

what are actually the main KPIs, what

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actually will drive value for that team.

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Building a K p i three of what

are, you know, the K p I level

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one, level two, level three, that

are actually driving performance.

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And once I had that, I had a clear

idea, a very clear picture of

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where we should focus our efforts.

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And because I had that vision, then

I can start to push back on the, the

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request from the field because I,

I have the buy-in, they know I can

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do things, I did things for them.

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So they like me in a sense.

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But now I have the vision of . What

actually drive results so I can have

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the discussion with the VP or the C

level and say, your managers are asking

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me to do X, Y, Z, but looking at this

picture of this K P I tree, I don't

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think this is the main issue of the team.

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I think actually the main issue is

there and this is what we should do.

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And you know, switching that,

having that conversation then

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with the VP or the C level changes

completely the dynamic in the work.

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You know, now you become a

strategic partner for them.

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You own this k p i three and you're

helping them identify what are the main

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issues because themselves, you know, c r

o for example, in a fast growing, company,

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at the scale of 360, you know, I joined,

we were at 10 million ar now we're 50.

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The C r O is heavily involved in

every deal, looking at every line.

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So it's also a challenge for

this person to take a step back.

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And look at the, at the, at the team

and say, okay, what are the main issues?

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So if you bring that clarity to

them, it's also a lot of value you're

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providing for the C level or the vp.

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Justin Norris: mm-hmm.

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Ben Marchal: Uh, and maybe that's, you

know, you provide value to the managers

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and the AC with tools and processes.

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You provide value to the VP and to the

C level with this clear overview of what

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are the KPIs, what are the benchmark, what

are the four, five initiatives we should

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do if we want to dramatically improve.

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Justin Norris: and it, it sounds to

me, based on what you're saying, like.

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A lot of ops people work with KPIs,

but they might say like, all right,

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business leader, tell me what the KPIs

you care about are, and I'll figure

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out how to report on them for you.

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But it sounded like you were actually

def define, you know, diagnosing the

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business, analyzing the business, defining

those KPIs, and then you're pushing that

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back to the leaders and saying, here's,

here's what you should care about,

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which is a really important distinction

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if you think about it.

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Ben Marchal: and the way to do it is,

you know, I'm not trying to impose

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anything on them, just bringing facts.

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And that's one of the key success factor

of ops in, there are a few of them, but

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the ability to be seen as someone who is

completely, you know, fact-based metrics

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and agnostic, you know, really important.

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So the picture that I'm showing to

them, this K P I tree, there is no

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debate whether it's right or wrong.

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You know, A K P I tree, it's, it's,

There is no right or wrong answer.

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There is just one k p i, three for

sales, one for customer success.

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So there is no, argument.

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And then I'm bringing other facts,

which is our performance today.

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And then I'm bringing other facts,

which is where the benchmark is.

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And then, you know, I'm

not deciding for them.

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I'm helping them understand why, you

know, this is the decision to, to make.

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So I'm not forcing them to take decision.

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I'm not asking them to do anything.

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I'm helping them see that this is

the right decision, based on fact.

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Justin Norris: you know, a

lot of ops people kind of, uh,

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grumble amongst themselves.

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Like, oh, like I'm, I'm doing

these things that don't make sense.

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Or, you know, my marketing team

or my sales team or whatever, they

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have this project, I don't agree

with it and I have to execute it.

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then at things through the lens of, this

tree, it removes a lot of that ambiguity.

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'cause like, here's where it's

broken, here's what we need to do.

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And, you know, it may work, it may

not, but at least there isn't this

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debate about whether it's on target

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or not anymore.

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Ben Marchal: exactly.

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and if it's very factual, you

remove also the emotional aspect

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of, of, you know, discussion.

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You could have, you know, a manager

is sending you thousand of requests,

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you are going to start to say, no,

they, they are going to be annoyed.

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then if you can have . A factual

decision on why you think you know

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it's not a priority and why it's

actually better for their own sake

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and their own performance and own job.

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Then you reach alignment and

it's much easier, you know, to

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build that relationship where

you can start to push back.

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Justin Norris: It makes a ton of sense.

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So there's a lot of McKinsey,

d n a in, 360 learning.

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You're there's like four or five

people I can think of and so there's

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a lot of these ideas floating around.

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So I'm just curious for for you as

an individual, I it's impacted you,

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your time there and, um, how you,

how you think some of those ideas are

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floating around in the air at 360.

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Ben Marchal: yeah, so I only

spent two years at McKinsey.

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but I, I learned, definitely learned

a lot from, uh, from that time.

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I think what is, what was incredibly

valuable is in two years, I did probably

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eight or nine different projects

with, uh, eight or nine different

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companies, different sectors, strategy,

organization, operations, topics.

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So you get, like an m b a, you, you

understand everything in a company,

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how it works from hr, finance,

operations, sales, marketing.

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So it gives you a great business

culture, I guess, and, uh, exhaustive

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understanding, of things work, which

helps, you know, on the sales side,

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marketing side, To understand the market,

understand what are the pains of clients,

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et cetera, but also internally, you

understand hr, finance, and then the

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business function, how they work together.

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Justin Norris: Ben, just to put a finer

point on it, what would a project be like?

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Like what is the, what is the

goal of the project that level?

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Ben Marchal: So you have

three types of projects.

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have either strategic projects,

organizational projects,

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or operational projects.

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So a strategic project is usually

a six to eight weeks project

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where you'll do, basically look at

the market, where is the market?

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You look at the company,

where is the company?

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And then you're looking at what are

the potential, you know, five to seven

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years trajectory for that company.

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How they can get there, what are

the investment they need to do?

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What are the choices they need to,

so that's typically a strategic

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project, organizational project.

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they chose a strategy and now

you're asking yourself what is

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the right organization for the

company to execute on that plan.

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So sometimes it's cost

cutting, but it's not always.

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Sometimes is, you know, it's changing the,

the reporting lines, changing the way the

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team are structured, profiles of people.

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That's organizational topics.

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It's usually longer projects will

take, you know, three to six months.

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And then you have operational projects,

which are really trying to look at one

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of the k p I of the company and it.

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So it's gonna be the same longer.

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Usually projects, uh, you are doing

a diagnostic where they, they're on a

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specific K P i, how you can improve and

then usually you are, you are implementing

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those recommendation, So usually it's,

it's, you know, you see, I think in

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the way I describe those projects, how

it really influences the way I work

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at 360, because that's also the same

project that I'm trying to bring in

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the ops team to cover for the VP sales,

the, the C R o, of Customer Success.

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Either we take strategic projects,

you know, where are we, where we

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want to be and how we go there.

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Either we take organizational

projects, So we have the business

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plan for next year and the year after.

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How many people do we need to hire?

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What would be the structure of the

team, number of managers, profile

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of people or operational projects?

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We have a specific issue on new

role, specific issue on upsell.

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How do we deep dive, benchmark, and

then change really operationally,

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new change management, change

the processes and the tools.

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So it's kind of the same projects

that you see in the Epstein that I did

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at McKinsey, and maybe that's why I.

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You know, invented my role or built

my role at 360 this way, because

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that's the only thing I knew, you

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Justin Norris: A lot of these big

companies like McKinsey, I worked

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with some people earlier my career who

worked at Procter and Gamble, and, it

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seemed like they had this way of working

and those people, like, it kind of

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drills it into you and you, you take

that with you and you kind of keep it

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with you for the rest of your career.

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And it seems like McKinsey

is perhaps sort of similar.

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a would you agree with that?

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And B, how did they kind of did

the, what's their onboarding like?

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Are they training you?

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Are you working with another associate?

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Like how does that mindset

get transmitted within the

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company?

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:

Ben Marchal: Uh, the

onboarding is quite short.

304

:

We had one week, uh, in Paris, uh, where

we had a lot of, uh, role plays, mostly,

305

:

you know, how you handle a client,

how you present in front of a client.

306

:

It was a lot of communication

actually, and how you problem solve.

307

:

So how do you structure, uh, Analysis,

how did you, you know, take an issue and

308

:

break it down into sub issues, et cetera,

et cetera, until you get a point where you

309

:

can actually understand what is happening.

310

:

What are the drivers, you know,

the specific issue or K p I.

311

:

That's the two things

you learn for a week.

312

:

And then week two, you

are already on the job.

313

:

You know, week two I was, uh,

314

:

I remember I was working for oil and

gas company in Paris and uh, after,

315

:

yeah, it was week two or week three.

316

:

My, my project was to challenge the

business plan of that company and

317

:

make sure the assumptions were sound.

318

:

So it was a project for the board

to check that the business plan was

319

:

sound, and my responsibility was to

challenge the business plan of, uh,

320

:

500 million revenue of the yeah.

321

:

Business unit.

322

:

And so I was sitting with the C f O

of that company, 22 or 23 years old.

323

:

And so yeah, that's how you learn.

324

:

You learn on the job.

325

:

, uh, they immediately put you in front of

your client and you have to figure it out.

326

:

And then you have a lot of coaching

from your manager, from the partner.

327

:

Uh, but it's a really fast learning curve.

328

:

You have to adapt faster.

329

:

Justin Norris: do some people fail

or do they, are they good at just

330

:

picking the people who will succeed

331

:

Ben Marchal: Yeah.

332

:

It's a mix of both, I think.

333

:

Uh, yeah, definitely.

334

:

Some people fail, uh, because

they don't like, you know, the.

335

:

Either the pressure or, you know, they,

um, they cannot, uh, follow the pace.

336

:

And then the selection process makes it

so that you choose people that are able

337

:

to communicate effectively, that are able

to structure things and be very rational.

338

:

you know, that's interview process is,

is very, rigorous so that you identify

339

:

people who actually can do that naturally.

340

:

Justin Norris: That's super interesting.

341

:

let's talk about your journey

here at, 360 Learning because you

342

:

joined as a strategy and operations

manager, and this is well before

343

:

my time.

344

:

I never, I never knew you in that

role, but like talk a bit about

345

:

that journey what's maybe changed

and what's stayed the same cause

346

:

you're strategy operations manager,

347

:

I'm looking at your LinkedIn,

director of operations, VP of

348

:

strategy, operations and then c o

349

:

O.

350

:

So you've kind of had a lot

of steps in that process.

351

:

Ben Marchal: I mean, those are, are

sometimes just title, especially in

352

:

a, you know, fast growing company.

353

:

You never know what is behind the title.

354

:

but yeah, I think, I think the, the, the

story for me is really a, a question of,

355

:

kind of right place, right time, fit with

the company, right skillset, and then,

356

:

uh, a lot of work and that, that's kind

of, you know, what made this trajectory,

357

:

I would say, I joined as, as you said,

as a, you know, individual contributor.

358

:

So the company had raised the series

B at the time, so 10 million ar a

359

:

hundred people, and we're looking

at what's the next phase for them.

360

:

So they had to hire a lot, a lot of

growth expectations, so needed to

361

:

implement a lot of transversal processes.

362

:

So I had to implement

the O K R methodology.

363

:

You know, today I'm still actually at

360, the one who is evaluating any, uh,

364

:

new joiners on the O K R methodology.

365

:

So that's my, my baby.

366

:

incentive models, challenged

incentive models, and make them a

367

:

bit more robust and start to define

what are the KPIs for each team.

368

:

So that was the, the first project.

369

:

This already gave me a great exposure

to how the company works, you know,

370

:

and so I think this was . Also a

bit of luck for me to start in that

371

:

role because it, it allowed me to

meet a lot of people and understand,

372

:

you know, how the business works.

373

:

Then I moved to customer

success ops for about a year.

374

:

So we had a churn issue at the time.

375

:

working with, the VP of customer

success, identifying, understanding

376

:

what are the drivers of churn for our

specific, you know, industry and product

377

:

and implementing a lot of things.

378

:

The, the most impactful one was to

start to sign contracts on 36 months.

379

:

So, you know, immediately you are

reducing the number of contracts

380

:

that are renewing the next year.

381

:

So the absolute number of

churn is, reducing fast.

382

:

it was also, you know, really churning

down in the KPIs, understanding,

383

:

that you have two elements in churn,

you know the amount that is renewing

384

:

and then the, the renewal rate

basically, and then rate understanding

385

:

what are the drivers for that.

386

:

Anyway, did that for a year.

387

:

That's where I think I

proved that this methodology.

388

:

kind of inspired by the former

consultant, that I was, worked well.

389

:

And so I took the, that's why I

moved to director of operations.

390

:

So it just mean I started to coach

the operations team, so just sales

391

:

ops, customer success ops, and we

had enablement also in that team.

392

:

enablement should be under cr.

393

:

We had it under ops because

it's also helps a lot for

394

:

change management, I think.

395

:

And there are a lot of synergies.

396

:

and when at that time, so I started

to also add, the data team, build

397

:

the data team, hiring Julie in the

team that, you know, and then hiring

398

:

more people so that we really have

scalable way of tracking KPIs.

399

:

So I think that was the, you know,

that was a big milestone for me to

400

:

cover a broader scope and really

have a scalable way of tracking all

401

:

the KPIs, the tools we implemented.

402

:

then, moving to COO was - I'll

be transparent, that's why I

403

:

say right time, you know, right.

404

:

Skill set.

405

:

we raised the series C in 2021.

406

:

and so at that time, I think the

finance team at 360 was not . super

407

:

robust in their understanding of the

business plan and, uh, and the company.

408

:

So this gave me the opportunity

to actually build a business

409

:

plan presented to investors.

410

:

gave me more exposure, to Nick, the

c e o, but also to our investors.

411

:

think this is what me also move transition

to c o O I was able to prove that I

412

:

understand the business end to end

in any team, and I can effectively.

413

:

manage complex project, like, like, you

know, aligning the business plan with

414

:

everyone internally and externally.

415

:

that kind of that I was able to do that.

416

:

So then 2023, that's when

I moved to c o o role.

417

:

what does it mean?

418

:

It means, so my scope grew significantly

because now I reporting to me, so

419

:

marketing, HR, US revenue, and then

all the, ops team that we talked about.

420

:

and the reason for that, I think

is really, you know, we, we go

421

:

back to the, the core strengths of

the an ops person is, my role is

422

:

not to be a functional expert in

marketing or in product or in hr.

423

:

I don't have experience there.

424

:

I don't think I'm, I'm, I'm an expert, but

425

:

to make sure that

426

:

everyone works well together, we

are all aligned on the objectives.

427

:

We all prioritize the right projects,

we're all tracking the right KPIs,

428

:

working in the right direction.

429

:

So the c e o Nick.

430

:

He's the one driving the strategy and I'm

the one helping him, orchestrating the

431

:

execution of that strategy by making sure

every C level works on the right projects.

432

:

that's how I ended up in this position.

433

:

again, yeah.

434

:

Right place, right skill set,

right fit with the culture.

435

:

That's really important.

436

:

I think.

437

:

a lot of work.

438

:

have to prove your value, And a bit of

luck to have a founder like Nick who is

439

:

willing to bet on the young people, you

know, and, coach them to grow in, roles.

440

:

Justin Norris: hopefully listeners

caught it when you were listing

441

:

off the departments that into you,

but not that many that, don't

442

:

flow up through, through you.

443

:

And that a, a typical

structure that you've seen?

444

:

Is it atypical?

445

:

I think it works in our company,

have, have you seen that elsewhere?

446

:

Is there a

447

:

Ben Marchal: No, sir, I did not

benchmark that much, to be honest.

448

:

I kind of took the opportunity

without asking myself the question.

449

:

No.

450

:

But, uh, more seriously, I, I've seen,

a few other companies that works like

451

:

this usually have a c e O in charge of

the strategy, in charge of the board,

452

:

in charge of, uh, you know, the m and a.

453

:

Still manages, finance and legal

' cause those are, know, complex

454

:

and, strategic topics for the

company life or death in a sense.

455

:

and then have a COO who is

in charge of, execution.

456

:

I think that is not atypical.

457

:

Yeah.

458

:

Justin Norris: In terms of how your

mindset has been, the same or is

459

:

different as you've moved through these

different roles, have you kind of just

460

:

taken the same, same mindset, the same

kind of heuristics ways of thinking

461

:

and applied them to problems that

just were increasingly large in scale?

462

:

Or did you find that you needed to

make, a significant shift in how

463

:

you thought about the business from

being CS ops to Everything Ops.

464

:

Ben Marchal: Honestly, I

think it's same mindset.

465

:

you know what, made me a good ops I think

at the beginning was, first being low ego.

466

:

I think there is no room in my opinion,

you know, maybe people who listen or

467

:

people at 360 will think otherwise.

468

:

But I think, trying to be low

ego, trying to leave no room for

469

:

politics, and as I said, be agnostic.

470

:

You know, you're someone

who's looking at figures.

471

:

and trying to make sure everyone

is aligned on what are the figures

472

:

so that we can then build a plan.

473

:

So that's the first thing.

474

:

The second thing was the ability to see

both the big picture, but also be able

475

:

to deep dive and be super granular.

476

:

I think that's critical.

477

:

at the same ops level, or COO at the

ops level, you need to be granular to

478

:

help your team, but you need to be able

to take the big picture if you want

479

:

to have that strategic relationship.

480

:

with the VP or the C

level you're working with.

481

:

And when you are the, you know,

c o o you have to be big picture.

482

:

But same if you want to take big

decisions that actually drive value,

483

:

you need to understand the granular

data, otherwise, you know, you are too

484

:

far from the field and, and decisions

that actually don't make sense.

485

:

that's the second thing.

486

:

The third one was, the ability

to structure, a problem, to help

487

:

team focus to cut the noise.

488

:

And prioritize.

489

:

I think that's really a critical,

that ops should do same any level

490

:

from IC to COO that's, critical.

491

:

And the last one is ability to

communicate and adapt the way you

492

:

communicate different audiences.

493

:

not going to talk the same way when

you talk to the c e o or C level, or

494

:

when you're going to talk to an ic.

495

:

those four things, to me are critical.

496

:

And a step back, you know, we

are talking about McKinsey.

497

:

I don't want to do, advertising for

McKinsey, and I'm not, you know, there,

498

:

there are a lot of great things about

McKinsey, some other things that I

499

:

didn't like, but the things that I

really, helped me be much better in my

500

:

job today are the things that I learned

there, which is 80 20 being 80 20.

501

:

You know, it's like you are working

on very short projects at McKinsey, so

502

:

you have to make the most out of those

six weeks or five weeks, et cetera.

503

:

So you cannot do everything,

so you have to focus.

504

:

On what matter, you have to do

ruthless prioritization all the time.

505

:

So that's the first thing

that I learned there.

506

:

The second one is the pyramid principle.

507

:

So we have a course actually at 360 on

that, which is how you structure the

508

:

way you communicate so that you can

make sure that people will remember,

509

:

you're saying, but also that a question

of, you know, you can go really in the

510

:

details or just stop at the first level

and give the main idea in one second.

511

:

So that was a, a great

thing that I learned there.

512

:

I think.

513

:

Third one is the ability to adapt

to, uh, new situations, adapt to

514

:

agents, adapt to changes, et cetera.

515

:

You have to be very flexible.

516

:

I think it's a quality that ops should

have because especially in the fast

517

:

going environment, you know, your

roadmap can change every month and

518

:

you have to be fine with it and, and

be able to move, uh, forward fast.

519

:

structural problem solving,

definitely how you build an issue

520

:

to really, and, you know, break

down the problem into sub issues.

521

:

Those are the four things that I

learned at McKinsey that I think, is

522

:

still the mindset that I had when I

was, IC and, and, and now it's C level.

523

:

Now what you said is, is interesting.

524

:

I agree with you.

525

:

It's, it's like same mindset.

526

:

It's just noise, tougher decisions,

you know, and that's why you need

527

:

to get better on the same principle,

but get better because . , the more

528

:

noise there, there is, the more

value, the value that you have for

529

:

the company is to cut that noise.

530

:

And that's my value I think for Nick,

the c e o or other C-level, is to see

531

:

all the noise that is coming back up

from the field, from you know, the other

532

:

execs and help them, you know, cut and

decide, okay, what are the three things,

533

:

two things we're going to prioritize.

534

:

We reduce the noise and we focus.

535

:

Justin Norris: So maybe to take like

practical example, 'cause, I can if

536

:

someone is starting out listening here

marketing ops and they're like running

537

:

campaigns or even sales ops, you

know, they're managing comp plans and

538

:

territories, quite frankly, even from

where I sit, you know, there's a certain

539

:

scope of the business that's under my

purview, you're looking at everything.

540

:

So I'm just curious in your mind, you

start your day, you look at your metrics.

541

:

now, how are you thinking

about the business from there?

542

:

And juggling priorities?

543

:

'cause it could go from

anywhere, from like, are we

544

:

doing the right product features?

545

:

Do we have the right positioning?

546

:

Are we hitting our demand gen targets?

547

:

Is our forecast on point?

548

:

How's our cash flow?

549

:

Like, you have such a scope of issues

that you could be worried about.

550

:

to the extent that it's possible.

551

:

I'm just curious how, your

mental, uh, train of thought

552

:

goes.

553

:

Ben Marchal: a good, good question.

554

:

I, I never, uh, put a word

or a theory behind that.

555

:

Um, but I think what I do is,

know, I see the business as

556

:

three, it's a SaaS company.

557

:

it's always the same structure.

558

:

We have three . Main areas.

559

:

So we manage to capture and create demand?

560

:

Do we manage to convert that into dollars?

561

:

And do we, do we manage to retain that?

562

:

and then the product is everywhere.

563

:

The product will influence, you know,

demand capture, demand generation

564

:

part, the conversion and the retention.

565

:

So product is everywhere.

566

:

And then for each of three buckets, I try

to look at, as you said, the KPIs, and

567

:

where we are versus where we could be.

568

:

And in my mind I think it's a, a matrix

of, potential impact versus feasibility.

569

:

I think that's how I take my decisions.

570

:

It's always I look at those three buckets

and ask myself, what will drive ultimately

571

:

the most value for the company AR growth.

572

:

Is it to try to fix the churn?

573

:

Is it to try to fix the conversion of

opportunities to booking or is it to

574

:

try to generate more opportunities?

575

:

so, for concrete example, right

now, I look at our company, I think

576

:

we, we generate a lot of demand.

577

:

generate a lot of opportunities.

578

:

struggle to convert them into,

bookings in some geographies, and

579

:

then, We retain them quite well.

580

:

If I compare to the market, we

are, you know, in the top 25%.

581

:

So that's kind of in my mind.

582

:

are best in class, in demand generation.

583

:

We are best in class in retention.

584

:

We are not at the middle.

585

:

So I'm going to put all my energy on that

problem because if I fix that, that's how

586

:

I'll bring more value for the company.

587

:

so that, that, that's, I dunno

if it answers your question, but

588

:

that's of how I would prioritize.

589

:

But six months ago, you know,

I look at the same picture.

590

:

We need to create demand

or, or capture demand.

591

:

We need to convert it.

592

:

We need to retain, we don't

have a VP marketing, so that's

593

:

where I'm going to put my focus.

594

:

You know, so that's, that's when, I

mean, you know, it, we work together.

595

:

That's when I, I said, okay, I'm going

to, to be acting as a VP to the best of

596

:

my ability, uh, and have the team perform.

597

:

'cause that's where I

can add the most value.

598

:

And, and where is the highest

risk, you know, in the company.

599

:

So in term of same matrix

impact feasibility.

600

:

That was the biggest, uh, red dot,

you know, on my dashboard, in my mind.

601

:

Justin Norris: I think it's, it's

very elegant and it's very simple

602

:

the way that you describe it.

603

:

And, you know, to the extent that

I've internalized that and practiced

604

:

it myself, it works very well.

605

:

I think the, where that description of

it and where reality can sometimes fall

606

:

apart is like, like you said, it's the

607

:

noise, it's the, it almost, you seem,

it seems you need to have a very strong,

608

:

uh, shield against like all the, millions

of things that, you know, inbox fills

609

:

up, your Trello notifications fill up,

and yet you, you are the most responsive

610

:

executive I've ever worked with as well.

611

:

Like many executives are kind of

like floating in outer space and they

612

:

descend periodically to You know,

issue commandments or ask where things

613

:

are, but this is why of have a theory

that you were bitten by a radioactive

614

:

spider at some point and have some

kind of superpower or something.

615

:

' seem to be able to thread that needle

very well of maintaining that big picture

616

:

perspective and yet being very active in

lots of different topics, being present.

617

:

Ben Marchal: I, I think maybe, I

don't know if it's the way I work, so

618

:

give you the, the secret sauce, . I

have my notebook, you know, and I

619

:

have all my topics on my notebooks.

620

:

And basically, I'm looking at my email

and my Trello notification when something

621

:

is important enough, it goes on my list.

622

:

then I look at this list every

morning I ask myself, same, you

623

:

know, matrix, impact feasibility,

and I would add, urgency in a sense.

624

:

And I ask myself, okay, what are the

five things that I need to handle today?

625

:

Or, you know, 10 things or whatever.

626

:

and I guess that's, that's

how I manage, I think, to try.

627

:

I try not to be late on feedback

that I give on presentation.

628

:

For example, you know, we, we are

going to do a big marketing campaign,

629

:

I know that I need to give feedback

by date X, so it's on my list.

630

:

And the more I go, you know, the

closer we get to that date, The

631

:

more this becomes in my mind, read.

632

:

So, you know, when I come in the morning,

okay, this, now I have to do it today,

633

:

there is no, you know, no option for me.

634

:

So usually then I, I put a spot

on my calendar and say, no meeting

635

:

feedback for this campaign.

636

:

You know, and that's, that's how

I ensure that I get things done.

637

:

I think I have this exhaustive list that I

maintain, and every day I'm asking myself

638

:

what is the priority on that matrix?

639

:

And setting time in my calendar to

make sure that I actually do it.

640

:

Because otherwise it's easy to,

you know, to get lost in your day.

641

:

You are tracking notifications,

emails, you get in the meeting and

642

:

you forget that it was your priority.

643

:

It's in my agenda, so I

know I'm going to do it.

644

:

And then it's rigor that you

know that if something in your

645

:

agenda, you're going to do it.

646

:

Justin Norris: I want to, from there

to to market strategy, which is me,

647

:

go-to market strategy is a bit like the

648

:

word lead,

649

:

you know, or the word campaign.

650

:

Like it's one of those words that

means everything and sometimes nothing

651

:

all at the same time.

652

:

so do you think about it?

653

:

Like, let's say you're

starting a new company.

654

:

What do you think of when you

think of go-to market strategy?

655

:

What are the components?

656

:

Ben Marchal: So I, I'm really not

an expert on that topic, so I'll

657

:

give my thoughts, but, probably

you'll need to interview, uh, in

658

:

another podcast like caroline or,

659

:

Justin Norris: you're, you're

you're enough of an, expert

660

:

Ben Marchal: yeah.

661

:

so again, so at 360, really the, the

go-to market strategy, you know, is the

662

:

c e o, it's Nick, the marketing team.

663

:

So I, I think I learned a lot from them.

664

:

I'll give you what I understood

from what I observed.

665

:

What I would do if I was to start, so

if we set apart all the, the product

666

:

part of the go-to-market strategy, you

know, do you have product market fit?

667

:

Is it the right product, et cetera.

668

:

So that's prerequisite, that I, I

did not, you know, I, I joined 360

669

:

Product, market Fit was already there.

670

:

me there are two questions is, is who

you are selling to and, and how you are

671

:

getting that product in front of them.

672

:

You know, how you're getting that

product to them, how they're buying.

673

:

So who.

674

:

What is the I C P?

675

:

what's the typical, you know,

company you're going to sell

676

:

to and who is the personnel who

is actually going to buy that?

677

:

that's the first part.

678

:

I think it's critical to

spend a lot of time on that.

679

:

That's where we struggle at 360

because we have a horizontal product,

680

:

so we can sell, you know, to.

681

:

A hundred people company up to

150,000 people company, and we can

682

:

sell to L V M H A luxury company, but

also to a tech startup, et cetera.

683

:

So it's tougher for us because the ACP

is any company, ideally you want to have

684

:

something a bit sharper, uh, especially

if you want to go, you know, outbound.

685

:

But, so you start with that.

686

:

What is the I C P?

687

:

What's the typical company

that is going buy from us?

688

:

And so for us at 360, for example, it

it's not industry, it's not the size, it's

689

:

gonna be more, you know, the probability

that they have internal knowledge that

690

:

they wanna share, internal skills.

691

:

So then you start to see what

are companies that have internal

692

:

expertise that they need to share.

693

:

So then you go back to industry.

694

:

So manufacturing companies.

695

:

Safron is a great client.

696

:

They have internal experts.

697

:

All their knowledge and

skills are internal.

698

:

So they'll need a system

like 360, uh, L D M H.

699

:

They're releasing new every, you know,

three weeks, three months, I don't know.

700

:

So they have to train all their

sellers, those new collection.

701

:

This can come only from internally, so

that's why they'll need a system of X 360.

702

:

So that's the question we have to ask

ourselves, like what is the company, the

703

:

type of company they're going to use us?

704

:

Usually it's industry and size,

but it can go further just

705

:

like the example that I give.

706

:

And then who the personnel, who are

you going to see in the sales process?

707

:

Who is going to see, take the decision,

but who is going to be the champion?

708

:

And understand how do those people think?

709

:

And I think we had a lot of discussions

on our persona, you know, how they

710

:

think, do they think about a o i or

actually it's not what they care about.

711

:

And, and I think that's an important

part of the go-to-market strategy is

712

:

to meet a lot of people that are your

personal, to understand how they think.

713

:

Because especially when you're

an ops person, you really don't

714

:

think, like most of the, you know,

of the people in the company.

715

:

It's not the same way we think about, you

know, only KPIs and process and tools.

716

:

That's the obsession.

717

:

A lot of people don't think like that.

718

:

And rightfully so.

719

:

You know, if you are, the best sales

person is not gonna be obsessed by KPIs,

720

:

processing tools, who's the persona?

721

:

do they take decision?

722

:

What do they care about?

723

:

once you really understand that, then

you move to how, how you're going

724

:

to get the product in front of them.

725

:

is it ? Inbound.

726

:

Is it outbound?

727

:

So I think that depends on

also the market structure.

728

:

it an equipment market?

729

:

Is it a replacement market?

730

:

it's an equipment market, to

me it's easier to go outbound

731

:

because you're calling people

and saying, is something new.

732

:

You've never seen it.

733

:

You wanna see and try, just, if it's a

replacement market, you are calling them.

734

:

We are, you know, we are 360.

735

:

We do that.

736

:

I already have a system in place.

737

:

Call me back in two years.

738

:

So, Understanding what is

the dynamic of the market?

739

:

Is it gonna be sales led,

product led, or hybrid?

740

:

and yeah, we, I think that that's the how.

741

:

And then you adapt your strategy.

742

:

You know, if it's inbound, then you

think of, okay, where is Malian?

743

:

Where do they take their information?

744

:

Is it in directories?

745

:

Is it on Google?

746

:

Is it Instagram?

747

:

Is it, you know, where is the audience?

748

:

Where do I wanna put my message and

what message do I wanna put there?

749

:

And if it's outbound, it's more a

question of territory, contactless,

750

:

quality of the data and messaging

always, that's, you know how I picture

751

:

it in my mind, it's the who and the how.

752

:

I think that's critical go in that

level of detail on the how, example,

753

:

equipment versus replacement.

754

:

To me it's critical because they

see a lot of blogs and article.

755

:

On how, you know, how outbound

should work, for example.

756

:

But I think how outbound should

work is not a good article.

757

:

How outbound should work in a

replacement market when the sales

758

:

cycle is nine months and the

implementation timeline is six months.

759

:

That, that's a good article that I

will want to read because it'll be

760

:

different than how Aborn works for,

uh, an equipment market with a sale

761

:

cycle of two weeks product lead.

762

:

It's not the same motion, you know.

763

:

It's easy to get lost in those

kind of one size fits all approach.

764

:

And, uh, I think it's a common

mistake that people tend to do, uh,

765

:

invite people to go one level below.

766

:

Justin Norris: if I'm translating what

you're saying to a degree, it's taking

767

:

the tactics, adding the customer context,

the business context, and looking at

768

:

all those variables rather than, you

know, in a very one sided point of view.

769

:

and you mentioned,

Qualitative aspect of this.

770

:

you listen to a lot of calls, I don't know

if we have a leaderboard in gong about

771

:

who listens to the most calls, but you'd

be up there, I'm sure if, there was one.

772

:

alluded to it, that you

can just focus on KPIs.

773

:

But what is that qualitative,

anecdotal customer context give

774

:

you that the KPIs alone don't.

775

:

Ben Marchal: So that's how I think we

should monitor, go to marketing KPIs and

776

:

then reality checks, quality assessment.

777

:

it's easy, you know,

for example, the KPIs.

778

:

You create what people did

during the tech bubble.

779

:

You create an ad on LinkedIn

saying, I'll give you $150

780

:

gift card if you join on mad.

781

:

So you get thousand of MQs

then they don't convert.

782

:

So maybe you're going to blame the rep,

you know, and say, ah, we're not able to,

783

:

or the product is not right, or et cetera.

784

:

Until you listen to that call

and you realize that the person

785

:

is not listening, they're just

here for the 150 bucks like this.

786

:

It sounds obvious, but, uh, I mean, I

don't know what's the percentage of SaaS

787

:

company that did, uh, aggressive marketing

tactics to get to pay for meetings.

788

:

that's the first thing that I would say.

789

:

then the second thing is I'm listening

to call because . A lot of the

790

:

go-to market is about execution.

791

:

So you, you set a guideline, especially

at the sales level, less for marketing,

792

:

that you set a guideline and you say

the, the pitch is that the slides

793

:

are that, and then you expect that

magically everyone is going to replicate

794

:

that, until you go in the calls.

795

:

And then that's where you realize that

the sales reps are actually not using

796

:

the story or not using the slides.

797

:

uh, sometimes rightfully so, sometimes

they do a great job of adapting.

798

:

That's how you learn also

how to improve your pitch.

799

:

but I think that's why you need to be in

the course and have this creativity data.

800

:

It's to understand the persona,

but also how you are executing, you

801

:

know, how is your team implementing

the plan that you Do you drew that

802

:

beautiful plan on the slide that

you have to, to go and listen to

803

:

Justin Norris: I guess it's just

being in touch with reality in a way.

804

:

I mean, both the metrics and

the calls are different ways of

805

:

accessing that reality, but you're

806

:

just in a bubble

807

:

and,

808

:

Ben Marchal: If you do only the

qualitative, you probably are

809

:

going to miss the big picture and

don't see what are the big issue.

810

:

Because you're gonna hear in three

calls that the competitor, this

811

:

competitor is winning against you.

812

:

So you're going to say,

okay, this is our issue.

813

:

and if you only look at the KPIs,

you're gonna lose, lose that.

814

:

Uh, as you said, reality check aspect

of, uh, what is actually happening?

815

:

Why are we losing deals?

816

:

Why are we losing deals at the

early, at the beginning of the funnel

817

:

or at the end of the funnel, you

know, what is actually happening.

818

:

The KPIs will tell you where you lose

the deal, but why you're losing them.

819

:

You'll have to go and listen to the

820

:

Justin Norris: mm-hmm.

821

:

. I wanna ask a fun one.

822

:

we are an international

823

:

company.

824

:

different markets, people from, from

all over, but large population of French

825

:

employees and now a large population

of, uh, American, mostly us, but

826

:

increasingly now Canadian employees.

827

:

And it was, it was interesting for

me when I joined, like, just to get

828

:

my perspective, like, okay, it's not

that it gets that different, everybody

829

:

speaks English, I'm communicating.

830

:

was only until I was first in a meeting

with just American employees that

831

:

I, I was like, oh, wait a second.

832

:

there's there's something like the

sense of familiarity that I felt there

833

:

made me realize how there was this

subtle difference when I was only

834

:

working with my French coworkers.

835

:

Not in a bad way, but

something intangible.

836

:

And so you, I know, lived, uh,

in New York for a while, kind

837

:

of deep exposure in both places.

838

:

I'm just curious for your

perspective on Business culture,

839

:

France versus North America.

840

:

What are the differences and

how you find it kind of working

841

:

with this international team?

842

:

Ben Marchal: That's

a interesting question.

843

:

Justin Norris: you can be as

diplomatic or not as, as, as you want.

844

:

Ben Marchal: know, how do I put that?

845

:

Uh, because I'm, I'm, uh, I'm biased.

846

:

You know, I, I'm talking as a French

person that, uh, in that, so my,

847

:

my answer might be too French.

848

:

No, I think the, the big differences that

I saw, I think, uh, and are, a challenge.

849

:

Honestly, on a daily basis, it's, uh, how

we communicate and how we give feedback.

850

:

That's, to me, the number one, risk.

851

:

is that because in France, since

you are, very little at school where

852

:

you're, you know, you're young,

you are being told not to talk in

853

:

the, you know, in the classroom.

854

:

So it's very, the teacher is talking

and the students are listening.

855

:

And the second thing is the way we grade.

856

:

Uh, we grade out of 20.

857

:

If you have 14 out of 20, it's already

really good and 16 it's excellent.

858

:

And it's kind of, that's, you

see that in the site in France.

859

:

You know, if your boss tell you it's

not too bad, it means that it's good,

860

:

you know, uh, that's how we say it.

861

:

And then in the US it's

completely the opposite.

862

:

You know, you have people who grew

up in schools where we push them to

863

:

talk more, to give their opinion.

864

:

And they have, you know, a G

p A of everyone is between, I

865

:

don't know exactly, but I guess

everyone is between three and four.

866

:

and, and or 2.5 and, and four, you know,

and, and four out of four is, is common.

867

:

You know, four out four is really good.

868

:

In France you'll get never,

you'll get 20 out of 20.

869

:

way you give feedback to people is you

emphasize on a lot on what is great

870

:

and then you suggest how to improve.

871

:

Uh, versus in France, I think you tend

to . Go straight to what can you improve?

872

:

You know, let's not waste

time on what is good.

873

:

We all know it.

874

:

Let's, so that's the main

challenge in the way we

875

:

Justin Norris: So, so we're,

we're more, we're more delicate.

876

:

We need more, we need more validation in

877

:

Ben Marchal: Yeah.

878

:

But on the other end, you could say

that, uh, you know, French people

879

:

are too pessimistic or too negative

and, uh, and there is a real energy

880

:

in the way, uh, us people, you know,

um, communicate and work together.

881

:

Uh, because you share encouragement

and gives, it gives motivation.

882

:

we have to

883

:

Learn from each culture.

884

:

I think people don't shy away from

the real issues, and that can be

885

:

the, the, you know, the risk in the

US it's not being able to address

886

:

fast enough the issues, I think.

887

:

but on the other end, French people

tend to focus only on the negative,

888

:

and so there is a motivation aspect.

889

:

the main, main thing that

I see on a daily basis.

890

:

Then there are a lot of other

things, obviously, but managing

891

:

your company internationally.

892

:

That's the main thing that I see in them.

893

:

Justin Norris: is there less

tolerance for humor and banter and

894

:

off topic discussion French culture?

895

:

Or is that just more a 360 thing?

896

:

'cause that was one thing that was a bit

of a shock to the system, was like we're

897

:

really efficient in how we communicate.

898

:

Everything is really direct.

899

:

There wasn't a lot of like casual chat,

more so I think with, with the French

900

:

side, but I didn't know if that's just

more related to our culture of convexity

901

:

or if that's a French standard ever.

902

:

And you know, where you're

like, why are you wasting time

903

:

with like kind of off topic

904

:

Ben Marchal: I don't know.

905

:

Definitely 360 learning is not on the.

906

:

fun is not the peak of 360

in terms of, uh, in France.

907

:

You know, I think it's like,

we hired people with convexity.

908

:

We have a mindset that is, I

think, attracting people that

909

:

want to have an impact and, and

maybe to value less, fun at work.

910

:

it's, it's possible, what, even what

I saw at McKinsey in Paris, you know,

911

:

probably was, there was more benter

and, and humor when you could do it.

912

:

You're not in front of the client.

913

:

So definitely it's a 360 learning thing.

914

:

I really don't know.

915

:

I don't have enough experience to

tell you, you know, if it's, if it's

916

:

a French US or it's just 360 learning.

917

:

But when I talk to my friends,

they all joke about 360 learning

918

:

in France, being, uh, so serious.

919

:

Justin Norris: So maybe there's a little

column A, a little column B there.

920

:

yeah, it's been, it's been super

interesting for me, but just, it's

921

:

the sort of thing you don't even

realize there can be differences there

922

:

until you experience them firsthand.

923

:

know we've only got a few minutes, I just

wanna close with maybe one big picture

924

:

question to the extent that you, you have

an opinion on this, but like, things have

925

:

changed in the, the SaaS environment.

926

:

We've both been, been working in tech for

a long time now, and, um, You know, living

927

:

inside 10 year bubble of endless cash.

928

:

And now that's kind of

gone away for how long?

929

:

Who knows?

930

:

But I'm curious, to what

extent will it change?

931

:

Are we gonna see more

bootstrapped companies?

932

:

Are we gonna see differences

in buying behavior?

933

:

the growth at all costs, mindset is gone.

934

:

And, efficient growth is now the

word of the day for many people.

935

:

But I just, to what extent are we gonna

be like, ah, actually we're back and

936

:

the good times are gonna roll again?

937

:

Or is this a permanent change?

938

:

Ben Marchal: I feel like I'm too

young to answer that question.

939

:

It's like, uh, the, the, they're supposed

to ask that to, uh, an old guru giving

940

:

you, you know, their wisdom on the market.

941

:

So, and I feel like

942

:

Justin Norris: I I,

943

:

know, but you're, you're, you're looking

944

:

at things and

945

:

Ben Marchal: I, I don't know if

I have, uh, the, the, the matric.

946

:

It's an interesting question

because I would, I would love to.

947

:

To spend more time to get

facts and build a real opinion.

948

:

But I'll give you on, on

top of my head what I think.

949

:

so for the, if we are just talking tech

ecosystem, think there are two drivers.

950

:

The first one is, is the interest

rate, and the second one is the, you

951

:

know, overall economy, interest rate.

952

:

I cannot forecast where they will be.

953

:

but, you know, it's definitely, if

you look at the bubble, it's, it's

954

:

quite tied to the, it's either,

you know, money becomes cheap or,

955

:

are willing to take more risk.

956

:

And so there is a lot of money being

invested in the tech ecosystem.

957

:

And so you start to see a lot of

companies, even some that don't make

958

:

sense at all, uh, like the, you know,

free riding scooters or the delivery,

959

:

uh, company that we had in France, we

had so many of them, you know, business

960

:

model that don't make sense, but you

sell the dream, you get the money

961

:

because it's cheap.

962

:

Really depends on interest rates

or, promise of return being huge.

963

:

I think interest rates are here to

remain quite high according to what the

964

:

Fed is saying, or the, uh, European.

965

:

So I, I don't expect money to become cheap

in the coming years, uh, two, three years.

966

:

But again, I don't know.

967

:

then the hype part, we see that

ai, you know, we still don't see

968

:

companies AI based, at least in

France, but I think it's the same in

969

:

the US raising huge amount of money,

sometimes just on a pitch deck or on

970

:

a, on a Syria, you know, um, product.

971

:

that's, you know, either money is cheap

or the promise of return is super high.

972

:

So, uh, that's what we see today.

973

:

I guess.

974

:

companies that can sell a huge dream

with AI will still manage to raise money.

975

:

The others, it'll be tougher as

long as interest rates are high.

976

:

So I would say that's

the, per perspective.

977

:

I The second thing I would say

is that the, the rest you know,

978

:

depends also on the overall economy

because the tech ecosystem is just

979

:

a small part of the overall economy.

980

:

Um, how do the global economy

will grow in the coming years?

981

:

Depends, you know, on interest rates

again, but also mostly depends on energy.

982

:

you know, what's the price of energy?

983

:

If you look at , G D P growth

and energy consumption is

984

:

basically a straight correlation.

985

:

the question you're asking me is, is the,

the oil production and coal production

986

:

is going to decrease or increase, and

what's the price of gas and oil gonna be?

987

:

you look at most reports, it seems

that people are saying that it's

988

:

going to, it's progressively uh,

stagnating, slowing down the increase

989

:

in production in oil and coal.

990

:

And then for the technical system, you

know, in the coming six, nine months or

991

:

12 months, what I think will happen is

we'll see more consolidation, you know,

992

:

more, more m and a for sure, because some

companies are going to run out of cash and

993

:

gonna get, bought for, for low multiples.

994

:

So some private equity company

are already starting to do that.

995

:

You know, you buy tech companies

and you consolidate the market.

996

:

the second thing is AI race.

997

:

Definitely every company is investing,

I think in ai and the one who

998

:

cannot, will probably be, behind.

999

:

we are going to see that.

:

00:47:05,233 --> 00:47:08,053

And, uh, it's gonna be a, a fun

thing to watch, you know, is it the

:

00:47:08,213 --> 00:47:11,173

incumbents that are going to win or

the new players that come with an

:

00:47:11,173 --> 00:47:11,773

on the ai?

:

00:47:12,433 --> 00:47:16,488

And the last part, I think for the

incumbent is gonna be a race to . Be

:

00:47:16,488 --> 00:47:19,408

a, a source of truth, you know,

a system of record of something

:

00:47:19,408 --> 00:47:21,168

because that's how you get sticky.

:

00:47:21,748 --> 00:47:25,088

Uh, d e r P, you know, look

at SS a p, Workday, et cetera.

:

00:47:25,428 --> 00:47:27,988

They're still, they've

been here for 20, 30 years.

:

00:47:28,486 --> 00:47:30,766

have been trying to disrupt

them, whereas they're still here.

:

00:47:30,766 --> 00:47:34,670

It's impossible to unplug them

they're the system of record of most

:

00:47:34,670 --> 00:47:36,070

data in a company, you know, most.

:

00:47:36,090 --> 00:47:40,430

Uh, so I think most companies are going to

try to fight to be the system of record.

:

00:47:40,757 --> 00:47:44,137

and you can see why 360 is going to

win, you know, in our own market.

:

00:47:44,450 --> 00:47:46,730

Justin Norris: I think it's a

healthy thing to some extent that

:

00:47:46,730 --> 00:47:48,770

a lot of these businesses, like

you said, that never made sense.

:

00:47:49,510 --> 00:47:52,130

The rubber will hit the road

when people don't have unlimited

:

00:47:52,130 --> 00:47:53,410

cash to be like, okay, sure.

:

00:47:53,410 --> 00:47:54,170

Like, let's try it.

:

00:47:54,170 --> 00:47:58,614

It's a good idea when they're really at

expenses through A stricter filter, at

:

00:47:58,614 --> 00:48:02,734

hiring through a stricter filter, looking

at the projects and initiatives with it.

:

00:48:02,734 --> 00:48:05,134

Like it's enforcing a

discipline in many areas.

:

00:48:05,474 --> 00:48:08,610

And, uh, comes back to us as well,

because if we're not delivering value,

:

00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,330

like people are not gonna necessarily

be open to an L M Ss project.

:

00:48:12,390 --> 00:48:16,142

So it forces that everybody

deliver value in that way,

:

00:48:16,162 --> 00:48:17,742

Ben Marchal: And short term,

it's gonna be interesting.

:

00:48:17,742 --> 00:48:20,702

The last thing that we're going to see,

in my opinion, it's like price dynamic.

:

00:48:21,002 --> 00:48:22,422

I'm curious to see how they will evolve.

:

00:48:22,777 --> 00:48:25,790

' cause I think the, companies that

the, that are not positioned very

:

00:48:25,790 --> 00:48:29,310

well are going to raise to the

bottom in terms of, in term of price.

:

00:48:30,090 --> 00:48:33,150

Uh, and then the companies that are

doing well are going to try to increase

:

00:48:33,150 --> 00:48:37,750

their price with inflation to, uh, you

know, go to profitability at one point.

:

00:48:38,170 --> 00:48:42,078

But they're going to have to . Be even

better, as you said, at proving value

:

00:48:42,258 --> 00:48:46,438

in order to differentiate and justify

the higher price versus the competition.

:

00:48:47,078 --> 00:48:49,038

I think that's what we're

going to see right now.

:

00:48:49,058 --> 00:48:51,558

And I, I mean, I'm saying that

because we see it on our market,

:

00:48:52,018 --> 00:48:56,038

we can see that the weaker, the one

that are not well positioned are

:

00:48:56,038 --> 00:48:57,878

going to discount more and more.

:

00:48:58,733 --> 00:49:01,910

The, the one that are well positioned

have a challenge of how do we make sure

:

00:49:01,910 --> 00:49:05,950

that we, you know, prove value, convince

the decision maker so that they're

:

00:49:05,950 --> 00:49:08,870

willing to pay the premium for our

system and don't go for the cheaper one.

:

00:49:08,987 --> 00:49:11,237

Justin Norris: Well, Ben, I'm really

grateful for you, uh, hanging out

:

00:49:11,237 --> 00:49:12,357

with me having this discussion.

:

00:49:12,457 --> 00:49:12,637

It

:

00:49:12,751 --> 00:49:14,351

Ben Marchal: Thanks again

for having me, uh, Justin.

:

00:49:14,491 --> 00:49:15,802

And I I hope it was interesting.

:

00:49:15,987 --> 00:49:16,807

Justin Norris: it certainly was.

:

00:49:16,957 --> 00:49:17,447

Alright.

:

00:49:17,457 --> 00:49:18,167

We'll speak again

:

00:49:18,167 --> 00:49:18,447

soon.

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