When it comes to pregnancy nutrition, most mums are handed the same tired checklist of what not to eat. But what about what your body actually needs?

In this episode, Dr Renee White is joined by Lily Nichols, a registered dietitian, diabetes educator, and bestselling author of Real Food for Pregnancy. Together, they explore the real story behind prenatal nutrition, busting common myths and diving into what the research actually says.

Lily’s known for her evidence based yet sensible approach to food, and this conversation is packed with insights that’ll help you feel more confident, more informed, and more connected to what your body and baby truly need.

Whether you're pregnant, trying to conceive or just curious about fuelling your motherhood journey with real food, this one’s for you.

You’ll hear about:

• Why standard pregnancy nutrition guidelines might be missing the mark
• What “real food” actually means and why it matters
• How your nutrient needs shift in the second and third trimesters
• The truth about folate, supplements and eating for two
• How to make food choices that leave you feeling strong and supported

Whether you're navigating pregnancy for the first time or the fourth, this chat is a gentle reminder that food can be simple, satisfying and supportive.

Links and Resources

📲 Want to chat more about this? Connect with Renee on Instagram: @fillyourcup_

🌐 Want to learn more about Dr Renee White and explore Fill Your Cup Doula services

🍪 If you want to gobble up our famous Chocolate + Goji lactation cookies, look no further!

📲 Follow Lily on Instagram: @lilynicholsrdn

🌐 Explore Lily’s work and resources: lilynicholsrdn.com

📘 Learn more about her bestselling book: realfoodforpregnancy.com

🎧 If this episode gave you a little more clarity or confidence, share it with a fellow mum or mama-to-be. And don’t forget to hit subscribe so you never miss an episode.

Disclaimer: The information on this podcast presented by the Fill Your Cup is not a substitute for independent professional advice.

Nothing contained in this podcast is intended to be used as medical advice and it is not intended to be used to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease, nor should it be used for therapeutic purposes or as a substitute for your own health professional's advice.

[00:00:27] I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is The Science of Motherhood. Hello and welcome to episode 184 of The Science of Motherhood. I'm your host, Dr. Renee White, and today's episode is proudly brought to you by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village. And you're probably thinking Doula Village. What's a doula village?

[00:01:30] And that is welcoming a new child into your life, but also becoming a mum. So we obviously support. Women and their families through pregnancy and then birth and in the postpartum. We make really yummy, delicious meals for our mamas. You get a menu to choose from. We hold your baby while you go and have a nap or a long hot shower or go do some meditation.

[00:02:34] And it's something that I talk about today on the podcast with this guest, the fact that, you know, becoming a mum is hard enough, but you know, there are some extra things that perhaps we can do and, and plan before the arrival of our beautiful babies. And if you need a support system, like a doula to make you feel safe and heard and nurtured, and so you can get those extra hours in the day for rest and recovery, then you know, maybe having a doula in your life is exactly what you need.

[00:03:42] She was one of our very first guests and I, I. I record these introductions afterwards. So in the interview, I think I quoted to say that she was like in our episode 12 or 13. That's not true, folks. I've double checked. She's actually number seven. She was asked. Seventh guest on the podcast. And I can tell you right now if you went back to that and I highly encourage you to, it was, it was slightly amateur hour, as you can probably imagine.

[00:04:41] We spoke about food aversions, and we also spoke about a really hotly debated topic, which is folate as well. So Lily is an absolute powerhouse. She speaks to everything that fill your cup really stands for as well, which is evidence-based. You know, nutrition. So Lily's, she's a registered dietician nutritionist, she's a certified diabetes educator.

[00:05:35] I love the fact that she is so thorough and she's unapologetically critical of, of the current guidelines that are still, as we talk about in today's episode that still haven't changed at all. She is the author of three bestselling books, Real Food for Fertility, Real Food for Pregnancy, and Real Food for Gestational Diabetes.

[00:06:34] And then like, it just drops like, it, it really, really quickly. I think it might be like, you know, 30% are actually exclusively breastfeeding by like 16 weeks postpartum. And that's a, it's a multifactorial kind of conundrum that we have here. But I think it would be remiss of us not to talk about nutrition because essentially, we as mamas are making the milk ourselves with our bodies, and we need nutrition as the fuel. So Lily and I talk about, you know, the things that mums can do to really set themselves up during pregnancy. You know, what are the top nutrients that are depleted during pregnancy and, you know, how can we replenish those to kind of set ourselves up for success?

[00:07:51] So I know you're gonna love this. It's always a pleasure to chat with her. She is just so like packed full of info. We could talk to our hours about, you know, all of this type of stuff. So I will stop rambling and can you tell I'm excited about this. Here is the wonderful Lily Nichols. Hello and welcome to the podcast, Lily Nichols.

[00:08:20] Lily Nichols: Doing great. Thank you for having me.

[00:08:40] I can't believe how long it's been since I've chatted with you, I think it was 2021. We were in the middle of COVID Lockdowns in Melbourne and I think I had to like hide out in my bathroom. I think it was 'cause it was like the time zone difference was the only quiet spot in my house that I wasn't gonna like wake up my toddler at that time and we spoke about pregnancy guidelines and you know, all of that fun stuff and your research and I have to say it is still our most, it's our top downloaded episode ever. So.

[00:09:17] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:19] Dr Renee White: It is. It, it's wild. But also I think it's so like pertinent that like so many people are like, oh yeah, those guidelines, they kind of suck, don't they? And there's something seriously wrong with them

[00:09:35] Dr Renee White: We're still doing it, aren't we? We're still doing it. I get dms from people all the time going that episode, like, have things changed? And I was like, Nope, not really you know?

[00:10:11] Dr Renee White: Isn't that, isn't that just bizarre that, I think that speaks volumes to like all of our policies and red tape and things like that across the world. But what's changed for you in the past, you know, four years since we've chatted,

[00:10:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:10:36] Dr Renee White: Wow. She's thick.

[00:10:55] So we got it down to like 500 with some. Mm-hmm. You know, careful formatting. But um, yeah, that came out in 2024, so that was big. Let's see, I've been running my mentorship program on prenatal nutrition, the Institute for Prenatal Nutrition for the last three years. In fact, we just wrapped the third round today.

[00:11:21] Dr Renee White: congrats.

[00:11:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah. That's, that's awesome. Yeah and congrats again on the, on the, uh, third book. It's amazing. Like so many people come to me like, you know, when we're doing our postpartum planning sessions, when I'm doing doula work and they just, and we talk about food, like, you know, my classic line is prep like a doomsdayer as if you're not gonna leave the house for two weeks, like zombies are coming.

[00:12:12] Lily Nichols: I'm glad it makes your life easier.

[00:12:30] Or, 'cause you know, there's this dogma out there of like, you know, protein, all that kind of fun stuff. So today what we're gonna talk about is, I guess setting, setting mums up for breastfeeding, because that's another really big kind of comment and question I get after baby has arrived. So many mums are like, Renee, I'm starving.

[00:13:35] Lily Nichols: Hmm, that's a good question. Well, first of all, we just have to acknowledge the fact that breastfeeding and just postpartum recovery in general is a huge energetic requirement. We ha we do have separate guidelines for postpartum it, these guidelines really only apply. Like they only have guidelines for exclusively breastfeeding women. So we're assuming like the first six months postpartum, there's no separate guidelines for postpartum, but you're not nursing. Mm-hmm. So I'll throw that out there as a, a gap.

[00:14:33] Dr Renee White: doomsdayer.

[00:14:54] Mm-hmm. And then postpartum came around and I was like, oh my gosh, I am like out eating my husband, like he made, he like, would make me breakfast super nice. Right. Like, oh great and I was like, I'm going to need like two more of these. Two of these. Yes. That's not enough food. You know, I don't, I don't think you can, I don't think you can put into words just how ravenously hungry you are, but I'm, I'm thinking back to your question on like, what do you do during pregnancy to prep, other than know that you need to be prepared.

[00:15:32] Lily Nichols: With the, you know, one thing that I think helps a little bit is making sure that you're actually eating enough to fuel yourself during pregnancy so that you're already in the habit of fairly regular meals and snacks and you're not in the habit of like skipping meals or eating super sparingly, like at the end of pregnancy.

[00:16:02] Dr Renee White: Yeah,

[00:16:35] Mm-hmm. Caring for new mums was like, that was the, A major role for older women in the community is often your mum or mother-in-law, auntie grandma, somebody would come and like feed you. Like you don't know what you need. But the older, wiser women do know. Yeah. And they take care of it. And so in lieu of that, it's kind of annoying that we have to step into a role of doing that for ourselves. But ultimately that's often the case. 'cause many of our mums didn't, didn't get that, you know?

[00:17:30] Lily Nichols: Okay, great question. The there's a lot of things that are depleted over the course of pregnancy. So I don't, I don't know if we can name, even name a single like vitamin or mineral that isn't depleted in pregnancy. Because guess what? Growing a brand new human being requires a lot of nutrients.

[00:18:16] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:25] Dr Renee White: Wow.

[00:18:51] Mm-hmm. And for the majority, not all the majority of vitamins and minerals, you do see a substantial increase in milk levels of those vitamins when you're repleting the mum. So you know, from a micronutrient standpoint, staying on your prenatal vitamin should be default mode at least for the first six months.

[00:19:34] That it's hard to generalise but definitely for the period of exclusive breastfeeding and like I would add intensive breastfeeding, I don't know, for both of my babies, they kept nursing pretty voraciously. Maybe even more so after we introduced solids 'cause they're also growing and have higher caloric demands, right?

[00:20:40] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Can I ask though, with the DHA, like, we see those supplements like on the shelf type of thing, and they're not all created equally, right? Like, are there certain things that we should be looking for if we were choosing a supplement for DHAs?

[00:21:44] Mm-hmm. So look at that. And then you probably wanna vet the quality of the supplement company that's making them, because the challenge with Omega is, is they are very delicate fats. They're very prone to damage and oxidation and then once they've been damaged, they're no longer functioning in your body than the way that they're supposed to now they're just kind of adding a potential source of inflammation 'cause now your body is like, oh, there's this damaged fat that's like kind of reactive and can create sort of a free radical situation. Mm-hmm. I'm trying not to get too technical, but it's hard. And so your body has to expend other nutritional resources like antioxidant nutrients, like vitamin E being a big one to kind of quell the inflammation and like put out the flames of this damaged

[00:22:31] Lily Nichols: Fat going around and ruining everything. Mm-hmm. So you do wanna be careful on that. So there's some companies that do a better job. For testing the levels of oxidation mm-hmm. In their, in their finished product to make sure that it passes their, you know, stricter standards. So Nordic Naturals is generally a really great one. I, I think it's available in Australia. You maybe

[00:22:54] Lily Nichols: have a look. But they're, they're a fairly popular brand in the states and they have pretty strict quality control standards. Falwell is another one that does a really excellent job in their quality. So there, there's a number of them out there, but you might just want to inquire with the company if they, with, with, you're asking about their quality control.

[00:23:36] Yeah. But. Some companies don't. So yeah, fish oil is not one that I would recommend buying like over the counter at a drug store and not knowing anything about it, you know?

[00:23:50] Lily Nichols: Okay, great.

[00:23:54] Lily Nichols: Yes. Really good question though. There's, yeah, there's a lot of confusion on, on Omegas and there's confusion on the plant versus animal omegas. I actually have a whole, whole blog post on that, that I put out last year on, you know, you, you can't really convert the plant ones into the long chain EPA and DHA and sufficient quantities, so you need to be thinking about a source if you're not getting those major food sources, especially the seafood. Just that that is by far, the, the best food source out there.

[00:24:38] Lily Nichols: Vitamin D is another major one and it is frequently low in breast milk, which some researchers say, oh, breast milk is just deficient in vitamin A and like, no, it's actually very much tied to how much vitamin A a mother is taking in.

[00:25:11] Like are you wearing sunscreen? Are you out in the sun in midday or you covered up or only going out in the morning like morning sun is great for circadian rhythm and all that stuff. But you're not gonna get the UVB wavelengths that interact with your skin to create vitamin D. But like, you know, 90% plus of our vitamin D is explained by our sun exposure and our sun habits.

[00:25:54] Dr Renee White: yeah,

[00:26:15] You know, in, in the states, I'm not sure about Australia, there's, there's guidelines on supplementing breastfed babies with some vitamin D, but there's actually research showing that if you supplement the mum with enough vitamin D, she passes enough vitamin D through her breast milk, that a separate supplement for baby is not required.

[00:26:34] Lily Nichols: And there's a lot of carryover benefits, maternal for getting enough vitamin D, including maternal mood and like yeah. You know, lower risk of postpartum depression and things like that. So might be a good idea to go the route of supplementing yourself versus trying to remember in the craziness of newborn life to get one little drop of vitamin D supplement every day.

[00:27:16] Mm-hmm. And that, that one is, is huge. And um, speaking of like research that didn't exist, maybe when I wrote Real Food for Pregnancy. Yeah. There is actually one, uh, on breastfeeding mothers. They looked at women at three to six months postpartum mm-hmm. And looked at their protein requirements. This was actually the same research team that had done the protein studies in pregnancy, the ones that like nobody had ever studied before.

[00:27:58] Dr Renee White: Wow.

[00:28:09] Dr Renee White: Oh yeah.

[00:28:25] I think if we do ever have the studies on like zero to three months, it's gonna be insane. Like yeah. It, it's, it's definitely going to be far beyond like a gram per pound of body weight if we're looking at early, early on.

[00:28:40] Lily Nichols: But that, like you talked about clients having this kind of insatiable hunger. Yeah. Like, oh man, I'm just crazy and ravenous that is like, your hunger levels are like only put in place if you get enough protein. Yeah. Like you will only be able to satisfy the hunger levels. With protein. Mm-hmm. You could try to fill the void with all the other things. Mm-hmm. All the buttered sourdough bread and whatever that you want,

[00:29:07] Lily Nichols: Which is all so great. Like you need all the things, but have that

[00:29:13] Lily Nichols: Yeah. That sourdough and butter is like a side to your really large bowl of like beef and vegetable stew. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like you need stick to your bones kind of food. Mm-hmm. So you know nothing against fat and carbs we need those too. But really lean in on the protein side, I mean, way more than you did in pregnancy. So especially if you're finding that you are just so hungry that like you eat something and you're immediately hungry right after. That's a sign to me that you're not getting enough of these like sustenance kind of Yeah. Nutrients.

[00:29:52] Lily Nichols: And, and you can notice the difference in it, you know, your day-to-day life, even outside of, of pregnancy and breastfeeding. If you have a meal that's like. A steak versus a meal that's pasta. You have a different level of snacks in the evening afterwards, right? Hundred percent. I mean, I mean like you can have a steak and you're like, I'm good don't need anything else. Yeah. Good to go. Yeah.

[00:30:29] And the concept to me initially was so, like, it was a bit ick, but once I got on the train I was like, oh, I don't seem to have like a sugar addiction anymore and 'cause I just kept reaching for like, you know, those quick carbs 'cause my body was like, we need energy, like, what's going on here? But I, I kind of it fact, check me on this Lily, 'cause I'd love to know, but my understanding is that, you know, for, for someone when they wake up particularly postpartum like that, that first kind of 30, 60 minutes is crucial to get as much protein in as possible to really kind of set them up for the day. Is that, is there like a time period where you're like, really wanna like get that protein in?

[00:31:14] Dr Renee White: do or die thing,

[00:31:31] Their body is just not ready for it. But I would try to get something down the hatch in the first 30 to 60 minutes. Mm-hmm. And likely if you're nursing and your baby's nursing through the night, you're probably gonna wake up hungry. Mm-hmm. Possibly even in the middle of the night. You know what I mean?

[00:32:24] And so in the morning, if you're not eating right away, you, your adrenals simply kick in, pump out some cortisol that tells your liver to release some stored glucose. And you're like, good and you might feel fine for a little while. You might even feel kind of energised 'cause the, the feeling of running off of cortisol is, is kind of like, you know, it's an adrenaline rush.

[00:32:46] Dr Renee White: yeah a bit of a high yeah.

[00:33:14] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to switch gears a little bit. Given your immense knowledge in gestational diabetes, if a mum has GD like history, is there kind of like a different approach to her nutrition when she's breastfeeding? Like is it kind of very similar to what we were talking about, or would, would you recommend a few tweaks or suggestions?

[00:33:55] But what's kind of interesting about gestational diabetes is in the immediate postpartum, you, 90% of the time, you're seeing a rather significant improvement in, uh, blood sugar control because you don't have the insulin resistance of pregnancy anymore. Yeah. Um, it's pretty much gone when the placenta comes out.

[00:34:45] And I will say I even oftentimes don't have clients. It depends, I mean, if you have like type one diabetes, it's a different story. But if it's truly a gestational diabetes thing, you know, came on during the pregnancy, or even if it's a preexisting insulin resistance kind of a thing that, that got more severe during pregnancy, like there was pre-diabetes beforehand.

[00:35:35] Mm-hmm. But don't add the incessant blood sugar checks on top of newborn land. Yeah. Like really at this time point. Part of the reason that they do a, a glucose check somewhere between six to 12 months postpartum, six to 12 weeks, sorry postpartum is to rule out like an overt type two diabetes that needs medication management like that is mm-hmm really the role of that check. And for the majority of women, they're going to be okay with their blood sugar early on because of that like crazy energy expenditure of recovering from from birth and also producing breast milk. But even if there is some pre-diabetes lingering, most of the time it's not gonna be something that at this time point requires like medical management.

[00:37:02] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:37:20] Yes. And it's like, you know what you really need to eat right now. So like lean into the protein and fat and veggies and all this stuff that is, has no essentially no effect on your blood sugar, but also be open to adding in more portions of carbohydrates as well. Yeah.

[00:38:17] And I, again, I'm just like, you know, push your book over the, over the bed to the table. And I was just like, I want you to read this with a really open mind, because I know what you've been told, but maybe if you are happy and willing to experiment, this might really help you initially, because like they, you know, they're just drummed into their heads about like all these things and you know, as we are, as mums carrying and growing our babies, we get scared. We wanna be the best mum that we possibly can be. But there are these, some, I'm gonna say ridiculous guidelines that put these women in situations where they're just, you know, they're hungry, they're tired, they think they're doing the best thing.

[00:39:17] Lily Nichols: And if you're talking about somebody who like maybe followed more of a conventional gestational diabetes diet during pregnancy. Yeah. And not like what I'm talking about.

[00:39:27] Lily Nichols: Yeah. They need to throw that completely out the window. Like this is not typically the conventional GD management is fairly low in protein 'cause the guidelines are low in protein. Yeah. It's too low in fat. It's calorie controlled and the whole focus is on a consistent amount of carbohydrates at each sitting, but not too low carb because they give you all the warnings about low carb right? Yeah.

[00:40:16] Hyper obsession around food.

[00:40:20] Lily Nichols: You can't stay full for very long because you're eating proportionally, so many more carbs relative to the amount of protein and fat that you're eating, that you're just starving all the time. You're like stuffed immediately after eating and then starving, like, yeah 30 minutes or 60 minutes later. And so that that approach is gonna crash and burn hmm in postpartum for sure, because it's not that your body, you know, can't handle burning some carbohydrates as I mentioned, you're actually, all of your energy burning is like ramped up in postpartum. It's just that you need proportionally to lean much more into the protein.

[00:41:18] Like your uterus is completely remodeling, your connective tissue is completely remodeling, your skin. Like all that skin that stretched on your belly is remodeling and now your, the skin on your breast is now stretching as your breast getting engorged and the milk comes in. Your thyroid is completely remodeling.

[00:42:06] They'll lean into vitamin C, zinc and vitamin A. It's like, yeah. All the things that we would be getting more of if you lean heavily into protein, balanced with, you know, fresh produce and stuff on, on the side. Mm-hmm. You know, home cooked, old fashioned kind of meals, meat and veggies, like that really fills that void.

[00:43:07] Lily Nichols: Okay, I'll, I'll name some things, some things that, um, I found really hit the spot in postpartum. Mm-hmm. And then also some things that are kind of my default if I bring people a meal when they're early postpartum.

[00:43:20] Lily Nichols: And these can also be things that you would prep in advance. Hidden liver meatloaf. Mm-hmm. That was like a top request early postpartum. And I had trained my husband how to make the recipe so that I didn't have to do it, but Hidden liver meatloaf with like, you know, sweet potatoes roasted right in the pan with it or something like that.

[00:44:03] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:44:14] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Uh, I love pulled pork nachos. Like, that's like my go-to. I like, yeah, I'm the same. I make a big batch and I'm like, okay, we are doing, we can do nachos, we can do tacos. We are very in like a Mexican vibe kind of family.

[00:44:28] Dr Renee White: I'm just like, eat like poke bowl. Like you could do anything with pulled pork.

[00:44:49] You gotta get your hands in the meat and all the stuff and, but you know, maybe half an hour on the prep time of it. Yeah. But my meatloaf recipe, the one that's in real Food for pregnancy uses, um, two pounds of ground beef and then it has the hidden liver in there, so you make like a big batch of it.

[00:45:43] Do like cooked leftover salmon if you have that available. Mm-hmm. Um, with some like minced veggies. And I do mine with like a sour cream to mix it together. I'm not the huge, just like mayonnaise flavors not my favorite thing. So yeah, that's what I do. But you could do whatever you want. Um, that would be a, a really easy one that you could put in sourdough bread for sandwiches.

[00:46:30] Dr Renee White: Yum.

[00:46:49] Like, or you can get somebody to cook you eggs in the morning if you want 'em fresh, but just like. Fit in eggs somewhere. They're great. Yeah, those would be some big ones like pot roast. Mm-hmm. Any kind of like slow cooker stewed meat. Yes. Situation is, is a low effort, high value kind of a thing. You're getting the hydration and the electrolytes, you're getting the collagen, you're getting the iron, you're getting the protein. So, you know, I, I have so many different versions of slow cooker meat recipes, but yeah, I, I would do some like slow cooked beef also, I think would be a, a really good choice.

[00:47:49] And it is now starting to pick up as a trend here in Yeah australia. To have at butchers, the mince, and then the liver actually in it already, which I think is such a game changer. I'm not good with handling liver, I have to say. Yeah. I'm just like, it just, I'm just like, oh, I, I just dunno how I feel about it.

[00:48:24] Lily Nichols: They're doing that in the states too. Yeah. So there, there's a couple brands that have that available and, and a lot of the smaller farms that do meat shares. We'll have a, an ancestral blend or an organ blend and Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's fabulous. Then you can use that for, I mean, anything you, your, yeah. Hidden liver meatballs. You got tacos. Um, yeah, like cottage pie or shepherd's pie. Yeah. That's a really great one to pre-prep if you can spare a pan to go in your freezer.

[00:49:06] Dr Renee White: I've got one last question before, um, we dive into our very quick rapid fire at the end, and it might be a little bit of a controversial one, so happy for you to, you know, steer clear if you want to or whatever it is.

[00:49:43] Lily Nichols: Yeah, that's a good question. All of those diets I have like slightly different opinions on too. Yeah. So I can't say that everything would apply to all of them. Like somebody who's, who's paleo and usually paleo, you're avoiding grains, legumes, and dairy for the most part and then there's all sorts of different versions of paleo.

[00:50:08] Lily Nichols: So it's a bit of a spectrum. And then you have the people who avoid anything that has lectins and anything that has, you know, you know they're not doing nightshades or they're not doing, yeah, yeah. So it gets a bit complicated, I would say as long. So one of the challenges with paleo is that it often ends up being default low carb, or is just default lower carb because you've taken out some of the easiest carb sources.

[00:50:56] And with my gestational diabetes experience, I've worked with a lot of women who remain low carb during breastfeeding and it, it can be done. You just have to make sure that you're eating enough food first and foremost, which can be a little tricky because low carb tends to be somewhat of an appetite suppressant.

[00:51:37] Really be diligent, especially on sodium. Um, yeah, interestingly enough, but like more sodium, more potassium, more magnesium. And the, the bigger thing with like the super low carb keto is like, is your body adapted to it or not? If you're already adapted to it and you feel good, you can most, for the most part, carry on and everything's fine.

[00:52:11] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:41] Yeah. Your body has to completely reorient to burning fat for fuel. Instead of switching between fat and glucose ketones and glucose on and off, you're now like fully in ketosis. And so that is something where if you're going to like transition to keto and you're breastfeeding, first of all, it's not something that I recommend in the early couple months, like go easy on yourself.

[00:53:34] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:53:43] Mm-hmm. So it's like it's all about the context. Yeah. The carnivore is like a more extreme version of keto because you've got essentially no carbs. It's all, all animal foods. Maybe if you have a bit of dairy in there, you might get a bit of carbs, but it's not personally my favorite. I think you're gonna have to go have the same considerations.

[00:54:24] You're probably gonna need a calcium supplement. You're just not gonna get enough calcium with having like absolutely no dairy. Again, depending on how people do their carnivore, I mean, your, your best calcium source would be like fish canned with the bones, like

[00:54:40] Lily Nichols: can beans people just don't do that every day?

[00:54:43] Lily Nichols: There's all these, you know, there's all these ways to potentially hack and make things work that are just not realistic. Nobody's gonna do it. Yeah. And then with, you know, vegan is like a whole other can of worms nutritionally. That is the, the biggest mismatch for, for breastfeeding because your, your diet is devoid of a number of really key micronutrients, so absolutely you'd want a really high quality prenatal vitamin.

[00:55:31] And that's, that's what I've seen clinically. I know, I know many women, but, you know, people get all up in arms about my stance on, on, uh, vegan diets and I put a whole chapter on that in Real Food for Fertility because it, you know, it warrants a greater discussion, but at the end of the day, it's like the human body's incredibly adaptable and it can pull off amazing feats, which is why we have so many women who have had vegetarian pregnancies and have, you know, you know, they, they are able to, to, to give birth and nurse and, and all the things that said, the postpartum recovery trajectory.

[00:56:17] Dr Renee White: Yeah right.

[00:56:50] And then they switched to being an omnivore, eating plenty of nutrient dense foods and they're like, wow, I had no mood issues postpartum this time, but I had it with my first two when I was vegan. And I have enough of those types of stories.

[00:57:04] Lily Nichols: That even beyond, like I can give you all the data on like things like nutrient transfer into breast milk. I teach a whole two hour webinar via the Women's Health Nutrition Academy on nutrient transfer in breast milk. And you can look at micronutrient by micronutrient the various nutrients that are commonly lacking. Mm-hmm. And that if they're lacking cause significant harm to the baby. Like I can give you that sort of information.

[00:57:46] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely

[00:58:15] But like, it perpetuates this idea that it's like hard and terrible. And it's not that it isn't hard, but it doesn't have to be quite as hard. Yeah. And the healing journey doesn't have to be quite so painful. Like, it, it can, even with the hard parts, still be a little bit easier when they're better nourish ly.

[00:58:34] Dr Renee White: Yeah. And, and like, it's so true. Like you, you've already got like this beautiful human being to look after and you, you do have the sleep deprivation, you do have the hunger and the recovery and all of those things. But as you say, like things are hard enough, you know, as a baseline when you become a mum, if there's things that you can kind of like, I don't know, like ease it a little bit, make it a smoother transition to becoming a mum.

[00:59:23] Like I did, I had two batches of spaghetti bolognese in the freezer and thought I got this. You know, like, I'm gonna have all this time in the world. Yeah. And my baby was just like, Nope. Yep. You know, like if there's some things in there that you can kind of add to your toolkit to help and, and make it a bit easier, why not?

[01:00:00] Dr Renee White: Lay down. Get horizontal ladies.

[01:00:05] Dr Renee White: That's all been amazing lily, thank you so much. I know everyone's gonna be so pumped by this episode because I, I always learn so much from you, which is so good. But we are gonna jump into our rapid fire now. So our last three questions, which we ask all of our guests, are you ready?

[01:00:22] Dr Renee White: All right. What is your top tip for mums?

[01:00:29] Dr Renee White: Love that. Love it. Do you have a go-to resource or something, uh, besides your books, which I think are amazing, everyone needs to get those. But like, was there something that maybe someone gifted you or you had through your pregnancy or postpartum and it could have been a book or a workshop or something. It could even be a quote. I've had some, some guests recite like a poem that kind of like that was their kind of go-to, that they leaned into during motherhood.

[01:01:06] Dr Renee White: If you're happy to share it, then go for it.

[01:01:28] Like you idiot, you're, they're just gonna be peeing out the side of them all the time. You're gonna be changing their heat constantly. If they're just in like a disposable, they can sometimes go like maybe even the whole night without even noticing. Yes. 'cause they absorb so dang much. Yes. So you only have to wake up to change 'em if they go number two.

[01:02:02] Now they're woken up 'cause they have all this bright light. Yeah. And I could just put that little salt lamp on a low, low dim enough to see and we could get back to sleep easily. That thing saved my butt.

[01:02:36] Lily Nichols: Interesting.

[01:02:43] Lily Nichols: But also, can I just add one more? This is supposed to be rapid fire and I'm ruining it, but sorry.

[01:02:49] Lily Nichols: Go to sleep early, like the first time around. Yes. I was like trying to hang on to evenings with my husband, so I'd be like, oh, we got the baby to sleep. Okay, now let's watch a movie. Like, yeah, idiot.

[01:03:30] Yes. I was so dumb the first time around to just be like staying up. No, no. Go to sleep. To sleep. Sleep. Even if it's like seven. Just go to sleep.

[01:03:43] Lily Nichols: seven. Yes. Yes, yes. I wish my toddlers would go to sleep at seven, but yes, seven. That'd be great.

[01:04:00] Salt lamp. Yep.

[01:04:08] Dr Renee White: Love that.

[01:04:10] Dr Renee White: No, that's fine. Uh, we had a previous guest say dust for her bedside table

[01:04:17] Dr Renee White: I think we can all just be, we can all just Dust is a mainstay. Like that's absolutely given.

[01:04:24] Dr Renee White: Um, Lily, it's been so amazing to have you back on the podcast. Thank you so much for all those listeners out there. Where can we find your books? Where can we find workshops? Where can we find you on the socials? Let us know.

[01:04:58] I'd say just to clarify, 'cause I get a surprising amount of questions on this. If you were not pregnant, you want the fertility book. If you are currently pregnant, you want the pregnancy book. If you're immediate postpartum, you also probably want the pregnancy book. Yes. Because that has the whole chapter on postpartum recovery.

[01:05:37] That's all in the pregnancy book. Mm-hmm. Like, I try to make it real simple, like, you are pregnant, you get the pregnancy book, you're not pregnant, you get the fertility book. But I realise that not everyone fits into distinct categories and then it's, yeah. Anyways, I answer that question like several times a day, every day, so I have to say it.

[01:05:57] Lily Nichols: Set the record straight here. Uh, let's see. My website also has my blog. There's hundreds of articles up there. You want postpartum recipes. Mm-hmm. And meal prep tips. There's a blog on that. Real food Postpartum recovery meals. Search that on my site. It'll come right up.

[01:06:31] I have individual webinars at the Women's Health Nutrition Academy. I have one on postpartum recovery and nutrient repletion. I also have one on breastfeeding, which focuses on the nutrient transfer into breast milk. So all that research about vitamin D and vitamin A and DHA and a whole slew of other nutrients.

[01:07:14] Oh, and social media I'm on Instagram. I'm on the other platforms very sparingly, so probably find me on Instagram. Mm-hmm. And my handle is the same as my site. So it's Lily Nichols, RDN.

[01:07:36] Lily Nichols: I try to make some the food stuff. Yeah.

[01:07:42] Lily Nichols: That looks good today.

[01:07:47] Lily Nichols: I post so intermittently. But you know, there's a thing about like, all these people in the nutrition space arguing about the best thing is this, and the best thing is that, and that person's an idiot, whatever.

[01:08:28] Yeah. It's a lot of like, you make a protein and a veggie and you combine it on a plate. Yeah. Like easy, right? Yeah. It's, it's not ridiculously complicated and, and I'm not somebody who really wants to be spending, as much as I love cooking, I really do. I don't wanna spend all day in the kitchen. So I'll do fancy things for holidays, but the day to day is really kind of straightforward.

[01:08:49] Lily Nichols: So, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Good inspo there. Yeah.

[01:09:03] Lily Nichols: Awesome. Thank you.

[01:09:08] If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well. You've just listened to another episode of The Science of Motherhood proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village.

[01:09:52] Until next time, bye.