Lawyers love to talk about how hard they fight and how much they’ve won. But does that market their firm? Gyi Tsakalakis suggests a different strategy. “It is a service business. So, the service that you deliver to – and not just clients, prospective clients, referral partners, all that kind of stuff – that's great marketing.” Gyi speaks from his experience co-founding AttorneySync, a digital legal marketing firm, and co-hosting the “Lunch Hour Legal Marketing” podcast. In this conversation with host Paul Bamert, Gyi argues that poor client communication shows up in Google reviews long before the bar takes notice. Tune in to hear why he compares spending money on marketing before investing in service to “pouring gasoline on the fire.”

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Bad lawyer jokes are an old genre, but if you're a consumer, finding a client-focused practice is serious. If you're an attorney, understanding today's ethical duty of care is critical. Anchored by current headlines and showcasing major legal minds. Ethical-ish speaks to consumers and attorneys about the modern transparent law practice. Sponsored by Case Status, powered by LawPods.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Ethical-ish, where we try to explore the gray area between what makes a modern law firm ethical or not. I've got my mug if you're watching us on the video. Left-handed, unethical, Gyi, right-handed ethical. Ooh,

I got to get one of those mugs, Paul. That's a nice mug there.

Guess what? Thank you for being a guest on Ethical-ish. It's good to have you. We will definitely get one of these mugs into your hands. It's a good fun play on this idea. Are you a lawyer, Gyi? I don't think you are.

I am.

You are a lawyer. You're a practicing lawyer. Great.

Well, I'm not practicing. Well, I guess I'm a lawyer for my companies, but I am licensed to practice law in the state of Michigan.

All right. So that's a piece of information that I've learned here. If you don't know Gyi, I'm going to ask him to introduce himself a little bit and go through some questions that I've got to put him on the hot seat. Excited to talk about his perspective in not only maybe working with a law firm directly, but you're in a one to many business. So maybe tell us a little bit about what keeps you busy though day in, day out these days, other than practicing law.

Yeah. So as you mentioned, I used to practice laws at a small plaintiff's firm, 2005- ish, and went out there and was like, "You know what? There could be some better marketing opportunities for lawyers." And so we founded Attorney Sync in 2008, and we've been doing that ever since, really just trying to help lawyers figure out how to use the internet and social media and communication technologies to be able to attract and convert business.

Yeah. And that world's not ever changing, is it? Same thing since 2008. Nothing new.

No, it's nothing new with marketing, nothing new with search. And so it's very boring. I spend most of my time just doing the same things over and over again.

Well, AttorneySync, we'll love to learn a little bit more and tap into that expertise, but shameless plug. I'm hosting a very well-known podcaster yourself if anybody's living under a rock. Maybe tell us a little bit about Lunch Hour Legal Marketing.

Yeah. So it's funny, I took over Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. Jared Korea had started it. Gosh, I recently looked back at this. I don't remember what year it was, but I took over hosting obligations probably about five years ago, or maybe more than that. I don't know, somewhere around there. But I introduced a ... I originally was doing it with another team member at AttorneySync and she moved on to do other great things. And so I needed another host. And so I invited my friend who's also a worthy rival at another agency, Conrad Saam. And so we've been doing it now and we were kind of just like, let's just do straight talk about the legal marketing industry. And I'll be honest with you, I was super skeptical when I came in. I was like, no one's going to listen to us talk about marketing.

Who wants to hear more about legal marketing? But to my surprise and great delight, people have said, yeah, more of this stuff. And I think a lot of it too, just kind of ... Obviously this is going to sound, I don't know, self-promotional, but I think we have a good chemistry. And I think that if you're at home listening to this, you're thinking about podcasting, you really have to enjoy it. I think if you don't have a good time doing it, you're just not going to stick with it. And it does take some time to build an audience. And it's interesting too because it's such a crossover with, in my view of like marketing and law practice in general. If you're not into building relationships and meeting new people, running and marketing and growing a law practice has presented a lot of challenges for you.

If you just kind of went to law school and you just want to practice law, look, it's a relationship and reputation business. And frankly, so is podcasting and so is running a marketing agency.

Well, you guys do a phenomenal job, I must say, to be entertained and also the amount of education, whether it's newsworthy headlines, getting into some provocative topics. I've always enjoyed it. And I'm not a JD. That's where I was going to go originally is that I had a few JD guests and some not, a few marketers. Actually, you're my second marketer, I guess, officially, since you wear both hats. But yes, check it out. I highly recommend it if you're one of the few people out there who probably haven't heard of it because you guys are doing some really good work there. So let's talk about that. I think that's a good segue into why on Ethical-ish. I will give you a little bit of background of my experience here. So I've been in tech for going on two and a half, three decades, but I've only been in legal tech for about three and a half years.

And so the Ethical-ish Podcast the last 12 months, as I reflect back, has been really fun to learn about the practice of law. And I kind of was coming at it from the American Bar Association and the bar and the rules and I'm learning a little bit about that. And every episode, I would kind of dive into those rules and the model rules of professional conduct. And even on the first one, Seth Price was one of my first guests and I wanted to talk about review gating. And he was like, Paul, that's not the topic. The topic is fake reviews. And I was like, okay, great, let's go down that path. So I have learned, have I gone on as I look back 12 months though, I have to say this, and I've said it on several of the podcasts I'm recording here in 2026, is the bar really does not have any teeth when it comes to the number one bar complaint, and that is client communications.

And so I'm trying to take a different angle this year and get into a little bit more of what I heard last year, which is, Paul, it's not about ethics, it's about good business practice on any of them, but specifically in communications, which is one of the biggest problems in a law firm practice. But we'll get there. I want to come back to you in the marketing side of things because you get into the idea of if you just want to practice law and be in a dark corner, you're going to have a really big challenge of running a business. And so I'd love to kind of experience this intersection between the legal client and the practicing attorney and a growing business. So from a marketer's point of view and an agency's point of view, you're helping a lot of these law firms out there.

I know you and I saw each other when you did a live podcast at the Great Legal Marketing Summit in October and again, really, really fun podcasts. But I remember one of the presenters there was basically saying something very provocative in a room full of lawyers. He was like, stop putting your faces on your website, put your client's faces on your website, put your client stories on your website. So let's start there. What is your overall opinion of the story of the client, the narrative of the client, the voice of the client when it comes to a good marketing message for a law firm?

Well, no, I 100% agree with that. We laugh because lawyers love to talk about how hard they fight, how long they've been doing it, thousands of years experience and millions of dollars if you're in the personal injury space of recoveries. And most people, if you've never hired a law firm, you've never had the need of any kind of legal services, you really have no expectations about how long is good. Yeah, maybe I've heard of the law school you're talking about, maybe I haven't. I don't know if the number that you're talking about from a recovery standpoint is right. But here's what everybody knows. Everybody knows what it feels like to be treated with respect. Everybody knows what it feels like to be treated with dignity. And you brought up the client communication issue and we still are dealing with this and there's lots of different ways to try to kind of solve this issue.

But at the end of the day, it is a service business. And so the service that you deliver to, and not just clients, prospective clients, referral partners, all that kind of stuff, that's great marketing. And so that's the other thing that we find all the time too, is a lot of firms separate kind of the marketing side of the house from the service delivery side of the house. And it's a huge mistake because they are, to use lawyer language, inextricably intertwined. You can't separate them. You can't say, "Hey, these folks over here are going to do marketing and we're not going to talk about client communication and prospect communication and follow up because where does that play itself out? It plays itself out. And as you already mentioned, in bar complaints, and the other place that it plays itself out is an online reviews." We see this all the time when we're doing analysis on Google business profile reviews.

It constantly comes back, "I can't get ahold of this lawyer. This lawyer doesn't answer my phone calls. Don't bother with this lawyer because they're not going to respond to you and all that kind of stuff." And so bring it full circle to the point about the website, that's the stuff you want to put forward on your website as well. And we actually partner with this company called Near Media. In fact, Mockingbird Conrad's company and Attorney Singer are the only two agencies that are partnering with this program. But basically what they do is they do consumer surveys and user behavior testing. And so on the user behavior testing side of the house, they watch people interact with ... They'll prompt them with like, "Hey, say you're in a car accident, you need to hire a lawyer. How would you go and find a lawyer and vet?" And so they watch them use their devices just to see.

And every single time, and there's other industry research that supports this, I'm sure you all have a lot of research on this as well, but it comes down to the ratings and reviews. And so we tell people, you better have that on your website. It's one of the first things that people are going to look for is how have you treated former clients? What do former clients say about you? And unless you're buying fake reviews, which you absolutely should not do, that is the gatekeeper for your reputation. What are other people saying about you? And if you're doing a great job delivering remarkable experiences, you should be highlighting that at the top of every page of your website.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. I mean, we do it from a SaaS perspective, right? Give the mic to your happy customers, let them get loud and proud. I'm glad you are preaching that. And I love the data side of it too. Research, right? Whether it's on the service side or whether it's on the marketing side, you're dealing with everyday people, right? The modern consumers, we like to call it him or her, but it's really you and me. And we don't have to look too far to understand how we are all programmed to consume. So all right, so I like where you're going with that because we preach and we are, I mean, that's part of Ethical-ish. It's sponsored by LawPods. It's sponsored by Case Status, but we're not trying to have a Case Status commercial, but we are trying to change an industry. And part of the change we're trying to make is invest in the client service side of it.

Invest in operationally having these hard conversations in a private setting before you have the public displays of affection or disaffection, right? The Kiss Cam can be fun, right? Or as we've seen in the last year, the Kiss Cam can be very, very unruly. So again, maybe we'll come to spend. I don't know if you see in your ... I want to come back to how the hiring decision happens, but you kind of sparked the idea of spend some of the notes that I've learned in the last year, especially when it comes to plaintiff and some of the practice areas that we talk about, how much of revenue is spent on marketing. And I know that marketing is not all one size. You got digital marketing, you've got traditional advertising, but I've heard numbers in the plaintiff space especially, and we did a white paper on this, going from 20 to 30% of revenue as the recommended spend and sometimes as much as 50% on traditional versus non-traditional marketing.

But then when I juxtapose that to how much is average firms investing in the service side, right? Culture and brand, right? What do you guys say on podcast? Brand makes the world go round, I think. And so I think about this idea of how can you expect to have the raw materials for all these reviews and referrals, which are happy clients, if you're not investing in producing more happy clients. So I'm curious from a spending standpoint, do those numbers resonate with what you guys see and where the hiring decision actually takes place?

Yeah, no, totally. So much great conversation unpacked there. The first thing that I always say is that, and this is the annoying answer that nobody likes, but it really does depend. And I always tell lawyers and law firm owners and CMOs and marketing directors, it all starts with what are you trying to build? That has to inform your decisions about where you're employing resources, just like any business. And so look, if you're a giant that is trying to, and you're like very far along in your growth journey, you've got a brand in the marketplace, a recognizable brand, and you're trying to incrementally gain more market share, all of that incremental market share is going to get increasingly expensive. And so you're going to find yourself in 20 to 30% land. I think that that's accurate for a lot of more established firms. You're a startup though, 20 to 30% of your overall revenue or fees invested in marketing, like that's like completely unrealistic.

And so anyway, it's-

No, that's a good point. Law of diminishing to returns for those larger entities. I think that goes a long way. I think that's the great perspective, not one size fits all. So I might've minimalized it a little bit to be too simple.

But I think it is from a guidepost, it is good to think about it. And I love thinking about it in terms of percentages of fees. I'll give people who want to do more research on this. A small business administration puts out guidance for small businesses. I think they come down to like 10%. But I will say this, the thing that we see over and over again, and maybe it's just human nature and we shouldn't be surprised by this, but firm owners and CMOs will have these great aspirations for huge year over year growth. And I'll say, "What is your budget for marketing?" And it'll be sub 10%, 5%. And I think if you're in 5% land, that's kind of like maintain mode. I think that you can make investments to continue your trajectory, but if your expectations on growth and what you're trying to build aren't aligned with your supporting budget, you're certainly, I think 5% is under capitalized.

And I think a lot of my contemporaries, a lot of my competitors at marketing agencies would say the same thing is that the number one thing that they see is that it's an undercapitalization of their growth investments. And so if there's misalignment there, you're never going to get to where you're trying to be. And so then you go on this musical chairs kind of roundabout thing. But the other thing that I wanted to hit on that you brought up is like, yeah, they're spending all this money on advertising and it immediately made me think there's a family law firm. I won't say the geographic regions, I don't want to give it away, but they're a big spender. They've got tons of offline billboards, they're buying radio, they're buying TV creative, and you go do a search for their name. So they generated interest, they generated demand, and you go research their name online, and their Google business reviews are awful.

And so they're actually spending money to spread the word about their reputation for poor service. And I just think about the waste and inefficiency in those campaigns that if they just switched and reinvested, redeployed those resources into providing better experiences, those advertising dollars will work much more effectively. And this is their thing that comes up from this near media research is that people don't realize it. This is the other false dichotomy people create is that it's either performance or it's a brand building. And the research shows that even people in a non-brand context, like they're searching for car accident lawyer, they're searching for divorce lawyer, the branded firms, the firms that they know or that they recognize, they command a higher percentage of the click share and choice share. So even people that are like, they're not thinking of that firm when they go to do the search, they still end up choosing the firm that maybe that firm is doing things in their local communities.

So they're recognized as a leader for, maybe it's like youth sports or maybe they're doing something else, but people want to choose and support those brands, those law firms that they have some kind of affinity for. And it makes your advertising dollars, it makes your performance dollars work even better.

Yeah, that makes sense. I think we can dive into that a little bit, but let's hit on the hiring decision. So I hear in a lot of what you're describing, I mean, ultimately we find an attorney, we build that trust and we take that leap of faith. Reviews and referrals, I mean, we're seeing it in our research. We've commissioned our second, what we call client experience report. And we've been serving non-Case Status attorneys, non-Case Status clients to try to understand better. But again, reviews and referrals tends to be top of the list. Everything you see seems to corroborate that from what I hear you saying.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the interesting thing is that that's been kind of a learning for me because again, we cut our teeth as we were demand capture people for it, performance marketing, demand capture people for forever, right? SEO, paid search ads. And it was really illuminating to me to see when we see this research that it's all connected. It's that you can't just do one. You can, but you're going to pay a premium for it. So like I tell people all the time, if you want to just do search ads, you can do that, but you're going to pay a premium for those prospective clients and clients. And that sadly, and that means sadly not sadly is the way the world goes around, that cost per acquisition for those clients is going to continue to go up. And without doing some kind of brand exercise, you're just going to be spending more and more dollars to incrementally gain those clients.

Now on the other hand, of the other side of the house is the pure, we don't do any advertising, we're just going to do good work and happy clients will sing our praises. And there are plenty of firms that still operate on that mindset. And that's great. But I will say this, you are playing with one hand tied behind your back if all you do is just focus on doing the work. If you have growth aspirations to grow larger, especially these firms, I mean, let's face it, these national firms, these firms that are starting to be backed by private equity, there's a reason that they're making investments into advertising because it works. And so again, I keep telling people, I'm like, it's really a balance. And the other thing that, and to bring it back to the point that you were talking about with service delivery, I wouldn't spend a single dollar on marketing and advertising until I have my intake and my service delivery locked down because again, your dollars are better spent investing in the experience than they are pouring gasoline on a fire where it's like burning out of control and people are leaving you bad reviews, calls are going unanswered.

I mean, that's always blown my mind over the years when we open up these call tracking reports and it's like, "Where are the leads?" And we're like, "You didn't answer the phone 30% of the time." Didn't answer at all. Yeah.

They went somewhere else really fast.

Yeah. I mean, what would you do? What would I do?

Yeah, it's part of the foundation. I totally agree with you. Otherwise, your program spend is chasing after bad, which is no fun for anybody who's, whether it's brand or performance. Totally agree. All right. So agree that this raw material, take care of, make the bed, and then let's put some program behind it, get some folks there. Transitioning a little bit. I heard you and Conrad recently using the word analog on one of your podcasts, and I love that, especially because I'm old and a lot of things back in the day were analog, but I heard Conrad has a really old car, so I'm about to talk old cars with him next time I see him because I do too. And I like that, that idea that it is not digital. Anyway, I digress. On the analog front, I love this AI, the intelligence era, as I like to say, for somebody like me who's always rambled on and been verbose, it's sort of like, "Well, yeah, now I can distill that down to an executive summary after the fact using a language model." Talk about the marketing change there and the finding.

I mean, even at Case Status, I mean, we closed some business the other day and I was tickled that the source was ChatGPT. They basically did their research there and found legitimate information and ultimately went through and worked with our professional team. But from a consumer facing law firm perspective, are you starting to see a little bit more of those dynamics? I assume the raw materials are still happy customers that have things to say, but maybe it's more about the verboseness of what they say, how many places and the backlinks of where it is so that these models can pick it up. What are you guys seeing there?

Yeah. So the first thing, and not surprising, but kudos that you all are tracking where people are coming from to find you. And I think that that's one of the big things that's a big miss for a lot of law firms is they don't do the qualitative analytics part of their intake. So they're not asking, "How did you hear about us?" And we could spend a whole episode talking about attribution and the challenges and limitations of attribution. But at a very minimum today, especially with the rise of a lot of these ChatGPT, AIOs and Google, Google's AI mode, which I anticipate we're going to see more of in 2026 for Plexity, all these other LLMs and a variety of other AI types of interfaces, if you don't ask, the tracking breaks. And so another thing that we've seen a lot of is people will do the research on ChatGPT, but when they go to make the contact or a hiring decision, they'll go to Google or they'll go somewhere else.

And there's no analytics data for ChatGPT as of yet. It'll be interesting to see how that unfolds as they add ads and stuff like that. But number one, anybody in the law firm that's listening to this, make sure that in your forms and as part of your phone intake, whether you're using, you've got receptionists or you're using an outside partner, make sure you're asking that question as a required open-ended field so that you can actually identify where that consumer thinks that they found you. We're seeing it a lot more showing up in CRM data for the firms that we work with. It still pales in comparison at scale to what Google delivers, but I think we'll continue to see that grow and grow. Another interesting user journey that we see a lot is that, like I've mentioned, people will go to ChatGPT, do the research, follow up prompts, craft prompts, do deep research.

And then once they've made the decision about the firm or maybe a short list of firms that they want to continue the conversation with, they'll go and search for their names on Google. And so that linkage, if you think about it, you're not going to see that in your quantitative analytics data. You're not seeing that in Google analytics. There's no tracking pixel following people between ChatGPT and Google. And so it does make sense to be thinking about how consumers are finding you on ChatGPT. But I'll say this, it's funny because we're in the middle of perhaps the most profound technological evolution in human history. And we are also in the middle of the largest hype cycle on marketing and AI that I've seen. And so dating myself, I've been doing SEO now around almost 20 years, and it's the same snake oil pitch we see all the time.

We see these companies talking about AI visibility tracking, and we see about people talking about how they've reversed engineered ChatGPT. I'm like, the people who created this stuff are talking about how they don't know how it works, but yet your local GEO, AEO, SEO, guru consultant person is like, "Oh yeah, we've cracked the code. We figured it out. " And so I would just say, be cautious out there. The good news is that if you really think about it, a lot of the same core principles apply to appearing in the LLMs that they have in traditional search. And I don't want to make this a technical conversation get boring, but it comes back to a lot of the same things that we're even talking about in the context of delivering remarkable experiences. The more people are talking about you and writing about you, and you're showing up on some of these places that are part of the training data.

And you can go to sites like Profound and there's a bunch of other companies that are trying to understand what the LLMs are using as part of the training data. But we see Reddit come up a lot. We see Quora come up a lot. We of course see Google business profiles because Google's business data is so robust. It all comes back to the same thing. It comes back to finding ways to deliver remarkable experiences that people are going to write about and talk about and share on these platforms. Then the LLMs, they go and soak all that data up and then try to make a, we'll call it a probabilistic guess about what the best response is to a particular prompt. I think that is the thing to stay focused on. And look, there's some fundamental differences, and I'm sure that the people that are in this space can call me out and they can hit me up on LinkedIn and whatnot and say, "No, you're totally wrong and there's all sorts of things we can do.

" But at the end of the day, it really does come down to publishing and being found and having people talk about you on all these different platforms. So again, if you're going to deploy resources to improve your visibility in ChatGPT, you'd be well served to do things that cause people to say, "Hey, this firm is really awesome to write about you on Reddit, to write about you on some of these other websites and get creative about it. Find other ways beyond just the service delivery, like the legal service delivery to inspire people to talk about your practice." And that really goes back to marketing 101 stuff.

Yeah. I like the idea of becoming more immersed and persistent in the messaging. To me, again, there's a human element to the side of the AI era, which is the more people you can have out there dialoguing and talking good things, again, regardless of where it comes from. Again, agree very strongly here that it's client service. You have more happy clients and then you got to ask them just back to your same thing, right? Don't spend program spend until you have those foundational intake and other mechanisms. We would say the same thing, right? When you do right by the client, you got to ask too. We see great statistics that show that people will only become mobilized at a 10% rate, if not asked where it's 80% if they are asked. And again, that ask isn't just about going to Google anymore, Gyi, it's also getting on Reddit or wherever the case might be.

And again, using language, using the analog and letting these models pick it up via all those sources. I think that's a powerful era. And certainly, I don't know if you can do that. I don't know if you can fake that out the way fake reviews have been dominant.

Well, that's my point is I'm like, if you think about it, everybody's going to be using the AI, everybody's using the technology, the automations and all that kind of stuff. And if everybody's using it, then you're not going to stand out for that because it's going to be the same noise. There's no points of differentiation. And we see this fakeness isn't limited to Google Business reviews. We see people that are copying and pasting ChatGPT into their LinkedIn posts, into there's other social media posts. And you can tell, you can tell and you don't want to engage with it. It's not human. And so people want to do, especially in the legal context, people want to do business with people that they know, like, and trust. And what diminishes trust and likability more than AI slop? So anyway, I keep telling everybody, I'm like, look, singularity might come someday and maybe we're all just dancers and poets and no one's working or has to hire service professionals.

The machines handle everything. Hooray. But until that point, it's still human beings on the other end. And so if there's human beings on the other end of that transaction, like the human connection, the points of differentiation, understanding what matters to them, understanding what keeps them up at night, their fears, you slap the psychographic label on it if you want, but really understanding who your clients are and then delivering message that helps them answer their questions, solve their problems and make them feel heard, respected and treated with dignity, that's what I'd be investing in.

Yeah, preach. I love that it's all founded on quality and profound essence of substance. So Gyi, I'm glad you're not practicing. I'm glad you're in this business.You're bringing a lot of good philosophy and I know you're actuating it and helping a lot of law firms to do more. Because at the end of the day, for me, as the non- JD, I'm the potential consumer out there and it is a lot of these practice areas I don't ever want to have to hire in my lifetime. But if I had to, I damn sure know which one I'm going to pick and which one I'm not, because it's going to be grounded on who's got my best interest in mind, not who is the loudest or has used all these tools to their own gains. Gyi, I appreciate it. But as a lawyer and you, any closing arguments, anything else to wrap up on?

And we've covered a lot of topics. We'll have to figure out a good title for this one because we kind of went in 30 minutes across lots of different topics, but it was fun to tap into your expertise, but what would you leave us with? You guys on the road have a conference coming up I think this summer and maybe give it a plug where we can get some more marketers and lawyers in front of you.

Yeah. Thank you for that. Thanks for having me. And again, I know this isn't supposed to be a commercial for Case Status, but one of the reasons that I'm even here and I wanted to talk to you is because I mean, so many examples of the impact that a Case Status has from a marketing perspective in the context of clients are being communicated with better and they're going out and talking about those lawyers. And the one that obviously, I got to tell this story. I tell it all the time because it's so good, but you just asked me about shows. And I don't know, are you going to tech show, ABA Tech Show this year?

Whether I go or somebody close to me. Yeah, we're always represented, but we're the hive mind. So

I'm at tech show a couple of years ago and I'm walking past ... I've been doing this a long time, so I've seen a lot of exhibitor booze and I've seen a lot of advertising going on at different shows, but you guys had this slide up and it was showing the impact that Case Status has had on the singing of the praises. I think it was Pond La Hockey's firm, but it was so on point and then getting to know Andy and getting to know what you guys are all about, just totally aligned with it. So anyway, appreciate having me, appreciate the work that you're putting out into the world. And we would love folks to join us for the Lunch Hour Legal Marketing Conference since you gave me an opportunity to plug that. That will be in Nashville, August 11th through 13th. And again, our thing is really focusing on elevating the voices of the people in the marketing departments at law firms.

So if you're a CMO or you're a marketing director, you're a lawyer you can come to, but we really want to help people put the word out to make more connections to build those reputations. And like I already said, I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I think the people who win the future, the firms that win the future, especially you've got national players coming in spending money on brand building and offline, you've got private equity coming in, you've got consolidation of law firms. The firms that are going to win the future are the ones that lean into these traditional notions of relationships, reputation, community involvement, be the lawyer in your community that people trust with some of the hardest situations of their lives. There's always going to be space, there's always going to be market share for that. That's what I believe.

Well, Gyi, I know I'm not going to be there, but I know you've got a very specific group that is, and I hope you carry forward the idea that those marketers in the room should become best friends with the operators at their law firms because that's where true music is made. So Gyi, appreciate it. We'll catch you up another time. For those of you who enjoyed this podcast, we'd love to have you listen more, subscribe anywhere you listen to podcasts. We're pretty much on every platform. But with all of that said, just wanted to thank you for listening to another episode of Ethical-ish for Gyi and myself. We'll see you somewhere else. Take care.

Lawyers and legal consumers, you are our audience and our biggest strength. If you find Ethical-ish, a good investment of your your time, please spread the word. Until next time, sponsored by Case Status, powered by LawPods.