What if healing is not about getting rid of painful thoughts, fixing every feeling, or becoming a completely different person?

In this powerful episode of Adult Child of Dysfunction, Tammy Vincent sits down with Dr. Elisabeth Morray, licensed psychologist, acceptance and commitment therapy expert, and VP of Clinical at Alma.

Dr. Morray introduces the concept of psychological flexibility—the ability to experience difficult thoughts, emotions, memories, and life circumstances without allowing them to control your choices, identity, or future.

For adult children of dysfunction, this conversation is especially important. When you grew up adapting to chaos, people-pleasing, walking on eggshells, or trying to earn safety and love, your survival patterns may still be making decisions for you today.

Together, Tammy and Dr. Morray talk about how to:

• Understand the six core components of psychological flexibility
• Stop treating every thought as truth
• Create distance between “I am a failure” and “I am having the thought that I am a failure”
• Stay present instead of reacting from childhood survival wiring
• Discover your values when you have spent your life being who everyone else needed you to be
• Understand why pain and connection often come together
• Stop trying to avoid every hard feeling
• Find a therapist who makes you feel safe, seen, heard, and accepted
• Know when it is okay to leave a therapist who is not the right fit
• Set up your environment to support the life you want instead of relying only on motivation and willpower

One of the biggest takeaways from this episode is simple but powerful:

You are not your thoughts. You are the person noticing your thoughts—and you can choose what happens next.

Dr. Morray also shares how Alma helps people find therapists and medication prescribers who fit their needs, identities, insurance, and preferred therapy approaches—including ACT, IFS, somatic work, trauma-informed care, and more.

If you have ever felt like you have spent years in therapy but still wake up with anxiety, heaviness, or old survival patterns running the show, this episode will remind you that healing is not about never feeling pain again.

It is about building the tools to move through pain without abandoning yourself.

Connect with Dr. Elisabeth Morray & Alma

LinkedIn: Dr. Elisabeth Morray on LinkedIn

Find a therapist through Alma

Instagram: @withalma

LinkedIn: Alma on LinkedIn

Books Mentioned in This Episode

• Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life by Steven C. Hayes
• The Happiness Trap by Russ Harris

Hey there, I’m so glad you’re here and tuning in! If this episode spoke to your heart, just know there’s even more support waiting for you.

Book Your Free Clarity and Calm Call: No Judgement, just a chat https://calendly.com/tammyvincent/clarity-and-calm-call

If you are curious about where you stand energetically, or just need a frequency boost, book your FREE biofrequency voice scan here: https://calendly.com/tammyvincent/complimentary-scan-demo if you want to take part in an amazing club, where you can get unlimited scans and free coaching every month, sign up here: $25 ($250 Value) Join For One Month Here https://workshops.tammyvincent.com/offers/JQz3QDrr/checkout

If you would like to ask a question, and hear the answer in a future episode, please leave your question here: https://www.speakpipe.com/Tammyvincentcoaching

Trials To Triumph: An Adult Child's Emotional Freedom Blueprint: Use code THRIVE25 for 75% off today. https://workshops.tammyvincent.com/offers/DSbcgrZZ/checkout

As an international inspirational speaker, NLP Practitioner, Trauma-Informed Coach, Neurofit Trainer, and Best-Selling Author, I bring both deep personal experience and professional training to the work I do. I believe in prevention, not just intervention — and use a body, mind, and spirit approach to guide others toward becoming the happiest, healthiest versions of themselves.

My holistic toolbox includes nervous system regulation, trauma-informed coaching, nutritional support, and natural healing strategies,

🔑 Start Your Healing Journey

Find ALL THE THINGS HERE: Anything that I have to offer is right here

✈️ Bonus for Travel Lovers!

Did you know I also offer access to an amazing travel savings program that can help you save up to 70% on hotels, resorts, cruises, and more? Let’s compare your next upcoming itinerary and see how much you could save.

👉 Try the Trip Check: https://calendly.com/tammyvincent/trip-check

📺 Subscribe to My YouTube Channel

👉 Adult Child of Dysfunction on YouTube

🌟 Book Me to Speak at Your Event

👉 Let’s connect: https://calendly.com/tammyvincent/speakers-event-chat

🫶 Let’s Connect

📩 Email: [email protected]

📱 Text: 513-280-3555

🌟 If this episode helped you, please share it with a friend, leave a review, and hit follow. Every share helps break generational cycles and brings healing into more lives.

hello, everybody.

2

Welcome back to another episode

of Adult Child of Dysfunction.

3

Today, we have with us Dr.

4

Elizabeth Morais.

5

She is a licensed psychologist

and VP of clinical at Alma.

6

She's trained in acceptance and commitment

therapy and process-based therapy.

7

She has practiced across medical

agency and educational settings.

8

She believes healing and living fully

were never meant to be sequential.

9

Welcome, Dr.

10

Elizabeth.

11

How are you?

12

I am doing well.

13

Thank you for having me.

14

Yeah, you're welcome.

15

So you've worked across so

many different settings.

16

So in all of them, you've worked

seen it from all of the angles.

17

And on this podcast, we deal a lot

with people that came from those

18

traumatic backgrounds, the rough

childhoods, the kind of dysfunctional,

19

I guess you could say, arena.

20

But- What, is there a common thread, I

was curious about this, and you asked

21

me to ask you this too as well, but

there is a common thread that you've

22

seen in the people who are truly able

to heal from that childhood dysfunction?

23

Yeah.

24

I think that, what I know as a behavioral

scientist, in addition to what I have

25

seen as a therapist, is that, there

is a concept called psychological

26

flexibility-… which is inclusive

of a core set of ways of behaving and

27

responding and engaging in our life.

28

And people who have this kind of

flexibility tend to be more resilient,

29

tend to respond, effectively and to live

full and meaningful lives even in the

30

presence of significant trauma and pain.

31

And in my clinical work I see this

all the time, and in my understanding

32

of really the kind of cutting-edge

scientific research, what I've come

33

to appreciate is that learning and

practicing skills associated with

34

psychological flexibility can be

incredibly powerful in terms of helping

35

people really thrive, again, in the

presence of really painful experiences.

36

Okay.

37

Can you break down, because I'm

looking at resilience- Yeah and you

38

said it was different than resilience.

39

Can you break down, 'cause we talk a

lot about resilience on here, how it's

40

a little different- Yeah … or- Yep.

41

Sure.

42

So there are six core processes

that are components of psychological

43

flexibility, and I'll just quickly

walk you through all of them.

44

The first one, is acceptance.

45

And what that means is, I call it

a sort of willingness to allow for

46

the full range of human emotions.

47

And I think sometimes people get

a little caught up in the word

48

acceptance because they think it

means they have to like, want, or

49

somehow be okay with painful emotion.

50

and this is actually a different way

of thinking about the term, and that

51

is, that it is a, an awareness that,

pain is a part of being human and a

52

willingness to keep moving through your

life even in the presence of pain, and a

53

willingness to keep doing what matters.

54

So the first part of this is acceptance.

55

the second part is really about our

relationship with our minds, and most

56

of us don't walk around thinking much

about our relationship with our mind.

57

We just tend to live through

the lens of our mind.

58

And that has some real challenges because

our minds are, they tend to, get caught

59

up in certain thoughts and certain

memories, and in certain patterns,

60

and that can control our behavior.

61

And so part of psychological flexibility

is developing the capacity to recognize

62

that your mind doesn't always have

to have control over your behavior,

63

that your mind can tell you one

thing, "I'm no good at tennis," and

64

you can still go out and play tennis.

65

But most of us, when our mind serves up

that, that judgment or that rule, we tend

66

to follow with our behavior and do what

it tells us is the right thing to do.

67

And so it's about recognizing the

thoughts that you have and recognizing

68

the thoughts as thoughts and not

as truth or reality, and therefore

69

having more flexibility in terms of

the kinds of behaviors you can engage

70

in, in the presence of those thoughts.

71

So then we move into, the

quality of our attention.

72

And most of us, whether we know

it or not, spend very little

73

time in the here and now.

74

We tend to have our attention either in

what happened last week, last month, or

75

in our childhood, or all the terrible,

horrible things that might happen

76

in the future, or even the wonderful

things that might happen in the future.

77

And it's actually quite rare to be

focused and directing your attention,

78

intentionally into the here and now.

79

Now, why is that important?

80

I think, this is not necessarily about

living your life in a meditative state.

81

I've yet to figure out how to do that,

and I don't think many of us will.

82

But if you are not noticing what's

happening in the here and now,

83

it's going to be hard to know the

most effective way of behaving.

84

And so if your attention, your mind, your

kind of script is around the thing that

85

happened a week ago that was painful-

It may be that what is right in front of

86

you doesn't look anything like that at

all, but if that's where your attention

87

is going and not to what's right in front

of you, you're likely to behave in a way

88

that was more fitting to what happened

a week ago or in your childhood than you

89

are what's happening in the very now.

90

And so there's a piece of

this that's around, attention.

91

The next part is about how

we think about our identity.

92

And, identity ultimately is a really big

and well-practiced collection of thoughts

93

that we have about who we are, what we

are, and what our experiences have been.

94

And the reality is, I think from

the perspective that I take,

95

there is something beyond that.

96

And when I say that, people often

think, y- am I getting spiritual here?

97

Is this about, something,

about consciousness?

98

and some people do approach it that

way, but the way I often approach

99

it in my clinical work is helping

people recognize that if you are

100

able to notice your thoughts and

separate them and see them for what

101

they are, who's doing the noticing?

102

So if you are n- not your thoughts, if

you are not the thoughts you have about

103

who you are or should be or can't be,

it opens you up to have an identity that

104

can really evolve over time and not get

stuck in kind of old scripts, old ways

105

of being, or old ways of responding.

106

And then finally, the last two

processes are really focused on our

107

behavior, and I know I've talked

about behavior, at points through,

108

through what I've been sharing here.

109

But from a psychological flexibility

perspective, the o- the reason we care

110

about helping people live in flexible

ways is so that they can have meaningful

111

lives, and lives that are in service of

what they care about, and their values.

112

And it's so fascinating as a

therapist, because so often when I

113

work with someone, it's really the

first time they've ever had anyone

114

ask them, "What are your values?

115

What do you want your life to be about?

116

When you look back on, on what you're

doing now, what do you want to see?

117

What qualities would

you wanna be embodying?"

118

And many of us know what our parents

wanted us to be or our teachers

119

or our partner, fill in the blank.

120

And it's very powerful to begin to

identify what qualities of being you

121

want to bring to your life, and then

the kinds of behaviors that move you

122

in the direction of those values.

123

So I know I, I shared a whole bunch

with you here, but really all of

124

these dimensions are about being able

to live in a world and in a human

125

experience that involves painful

thoughts, painful emotions, painful

126

memories, painful experiences.

127

And even in the presence of emotional

pain, having the flexibility

128

to continue to move in the

direction of what you care about.

129

Got you.

130

So yeah, you said a lot.

131

I literally was like, "Oh, my God, every

single one of these is a podcast episode."

132

Y- you are absolutely right about that.

133

I was like, "Okay, where

do I even begin to write?"

134

I was like gonna write down notes, and

I was like, I can't even touch that.

135

every single one is so- It

sounds so simple, but it's not.

136

Like, when you go to the identity

part, I know there's so many people out

137

there that are remembering the first

time they went to a therapist, myself

138

included, and they said, who is Tammy?

139

What does she like to do?"

140

And I literally I remember looking

at her and going, "I don't know."

141

I do whatever- I'll be…

142

Or, "Who is Tammy?"

143

I'll be whoever you need me to be.

144

Yes.

145

Yes.

146

I was so adaptive of just

survival that you never thought

147

about what do I like to do.

148

if I had a free week, where would I go?

149

I didn't know that at 26 years old.

150

I was I just didn't.

151

and I know I'm not the only one out there

that went through that "I don't know."

152

And then you probably deal with a

lot of clients who go through it

153

again after they're empty nesters,

and-… they've just been mom for 26

154

years, and all of a sudden they're

like, "What does mom like to do?

155

I don't know."

156

And, that part alone

you could get stuck on.

157

And the thing I love about thinking

about a values framework as we

158

think about our identity is that,

our values are like a direction.

159

It's like a compass.

160

And I might be heading west, but

depending on where I am in my

161

life and what I'm doing and, that

could look very different, right?

162

I might head west in a car or on foot,

and west might be just getting home

163

or it might be traveling to, Hawaii.

164

and I think when it comes to, really

discovering who we are outside of

165

what life has taught us about who

we are, which is often very limiting

166

and sometimes very rigid, when you

have, one or two north stars in terms

167

of, what you want to embody, right?

168

And that doesn't…

169

It's not something you can

check off a list, right?

170

It's not something you can say, I've done

this, and now I can move on with my life."

171

If your life has a sense of clarity

around the kind of alignment you wanna

172

have, you can carry that into all

phases of your life and all situations.

173

I'll talk about how if one of my

values is connection, sure, that might

174

influence my career selection, but it

also can influence how I talk to the

175

barista when I order my latte, right?

176

It can influence, who I am at my

best, and it can also influence who

177

I am when I'm struggling the most.

178

and so I think that's one of the really

beautiful and creative things about

179

the work that I get to do, is, helping

people begin to identify and envision

180

these qualities they wanna bring to

their life, and then discover what that

181

looks like in all of these different,

elements of who they are and what it's

182

like for them to navigate the world.

183

Exactly.

184

And so much of it, and I know people are

always like, "Tammy, stop talking about

185

boundaries," but when you don't know

your moral compass or you don't know what

186

you stand for or what you value, it is

very hard to set boundaries around that.

187

if you don't know what y- I remember

people saying, I was like, "How do I know?

188

How do I…"

189

And I re- finally had a therapist that

just basically said to me, "Tammy, picture

190

your most amazing day, and I want you to

write down every single characteristic

191

of every person and experience in that

and what it looked like, and then do

192

the same for things for something icky.

193

And then you can start kinda

figuring out what you like, what

194

you don't like, what you stand for."

195

So then when you get farther in the

process, because I know a lot of

196

the people that grew up in those

dysfunctional households, like

197

you said, it's all about patterns.

198

They, when you meet that guy and there's

19 red flags immediately that are on your

199

icky day list, you're lessen- less likely

to be like, "Oh, he seems good for me."

200

Yeah.

201

Because- No red flags here.

202

Oh my gosh.

203

Yeah … how many times, do you

go, "Oh, wow, he lied to me"?

204

When once I realized that honesty was

one of my biggest values- It quickly

205

weeded out a lot of people in my life.

206

Because they, I caught

them in little white lies.

207

if you can lie to me about

the little things, you can lie

208

to me about the big things.

209

Ooh.

210

And so you can- The other thing that

comes, yeah, the other thing that comes

211

to mind there is thinking about, this

is a way in which where your attention

212

is directed becomes really important.

213

Because, let's say, in a context

in which you had very difficult

214

relationships with difficult parents.

215

As a child, you had to do certain things

that functioned in that environment,

216

that when you have a parent who requires

you to over-accommodate their need in

217

order to survive, which as a child you

have to have that parent's attention,

218

favor, support in order to survive.

219

it may be that part of developing

and recovering and reorienting means

220

learning to actually look at the

here and now, and recognize that,

221

with tremendous compassion, that

what I did back then I did because

222

it worked, and it helped me survive.

223

Yeah.

224

But here I am standing in front of this

person who is not my parent, and I don't

225

need to do the same things to survive.

226

And so if I can really tune into the fact

that I am not seven years old, I am-… 40

227

whatever, it allows you to then begin

to have more flexibility and respond,

228

with the perspective that you have now

rather than the one that you had then.

229

I love that.

230

I love this whole concept, this,

of the flexibility, because it is.

231

It's opening your world to a whole

nother- a whole nother just degree of that

232

mental safeness, I guess you could say.

233

y- you, like you said, it's unrealistic

to go into life thinking you're never

234

going to have hard experiences, but

it's much more flexible to think, "I

235

can handle a hard experience, and in

that hard experience I can also find

236

the joy in that," or, "I can find

what I learn from that," or, "I can

237

find something from that," and the

two can coexist at the same time.

238

It just, it, just flexibility

in general is amazing.

239

I think it's necessary.

240

Yeah, and I, you're hitting on, you're

hitting on something really important

241

because I would take it even a step

further and say not only do they coexist,

242

but they are actually flip sides of the

same coin, that you wouldn't feel pain

243

if you didn't also feel care, right?

244

And one, one side of that coin is

something you care deeply about, and

245

the other side is often something

painful because you do care.

246

And so what you find, and what I find

as a therapist, is that people often

247

get so busy trying to avoid the painful

part that they often forget that you

248

can't avoid one without the other.

249

You can't just avoid the painful stuff.

250

If you care about relationships, yes,

you can look for healthy relationships,

251

but in order to be intimately connected,

there is going to be pain involved.

252

That is part of the process

as far as I can tell.

253

And so if your behavior is focused

around avoiding pain, you are also going

254

to have to avoid intimate connections.

255

Exactly.

256

and so this is a different way of relating

to pain, in a way that allows you to

257

recognize that ongoing focus on what's

important to you, and to navigate the

258

pain and allows you, that in a way that

allows you to maintain that alignment.

259

Absolutely.

260

Yeah, no, that makes total sense.

261

And for the people out there

listening, it's unrealistic, and

262

we talk about it all the time.

263

Life has its ups and downs, and

it's how you deal with them.

264

And maybe that's the way,

maybe that's finding out.

265

Like, when something happens, looking

at it and going, "Okay, there's

266

a polar opposite to everything."

267

Everything.

268

it has those two flip sides of the

coin, so let's, let's- Yeah … flip

269

it both ways, and I love that.

270

I like the little metaphors or the little

analogies of trying to see something

271

visual so you can kind of- Yeah … put

your mind together with it, Yeah.

272

I did have a question about,

so you work with the acceptance

273

and commit- commitment therapy.

274

Yeah.

275

And that is the core.

276

So that is your six basic things.

277

Yeah.

278

your six basic concepts

that you just gave here.

279

What does this offer that maybe tra-

j- traditional regular t- I don't know.

280

what would this be in

replace of or in place of?

281

Would it be in place of-

Sure … your traditional

282

psychotherapy or talk therapy or- Yep.

283

So- talk to me about that so acceptance

and commitment therapy, or ACT,

284

is considered an evidence-based

psychotherapeutic approach.

285

It actually is one of the-

Okay … modalities that, that

286

has the most kind of science,

and, empirical evidence behind it.

287

I think what I find most powerful

about it, is that it takes the kind

288

of the impacts of a focus on behavior

And combines it with an emphasis on

289

mindfulness, which I think is incredibly

important, especially in this day and

290

age where our attention is often so

fragmented, and that it is deeply human.

291

It is very much oriented around who we

are in the world, who we want to be in

292

the world, and how complicated that is.

293

And I think, one of the criticisms

that, that I encounter when it comes

294

to, cognitive behavioral therapy is that

it really focuses primarily on thoughts

295

and behaviors, which are important,

and th- there's more to it than that.

296

A- and so I could tell you, to try to

change a particular thought that you have.

297

If you tell yourself, "I'm stupid,"

I could tell you, "Okay, why

298

don't you replace that thought

with I am smart and capable?"

299

What we actually have learned is

that trying to change thoughts,

300

trying to stop thoughts, trying

to eliminate thoughts actually

301

makes them more powerful, not less.

302

Absolutely.

303

And so when- Because you're

bringing your attention.

304

Yeah, you're bringing

your attention to it.

305

It's…

306

That's exactly right.

307

And what you think about,

308

you bring about.

309

That's exactly right.

310

And so when you integrate this

mindfulness component, what that

311

does is not that it allows you to

sit in some Zen meditative state.

312

It allows you to recognize, oh,

I'm noticing that right now I am

313

having the thought that I am stupid.

314

And the minute you get that

distance, it opens up a space for

315

you to choose how you respond.

316

And rather than having thought be who and

what you are and something that you have

317

to try to avoid or change or, prevent, you

get to say, "Oh, that, thank you, mind.

318

I appreciate you sharing that

delightful, insight with me that is

319

completely unhelpful," and instead

behave in ways that you think are

320

gonna be helpful in terms of moving

you in the direction that you wanna go.

321

And I think that's a very powerful

difference, and for many people means

322

that they can take some of the energy that

they would put into struggling with their

323

thoughts and feelings, and particularly

avoiding their thoughts and feelings,

324

and take some of that energy and channel

it into moving in the direction that

325

is meaningful and that they care about.

326

Absolutely.

327

I'm actually a big proponent, and most

of my work is done with the body-mind

328

connection and the body- I'm, I…

329

People are always like,

what kind, what do you do?"

330

And I'm like, "I don't know, but it

all involves body, mind, and spirit."

331

Yeah.

332

Because you gotta kinda

integrate all of 'em.

333

And so I'm a big fan of, if you wake

up at 3:00 in the morning and you're

334

thinking, your mind starts racing, it's

a physiological reason you woke up.

335

You woke up because- Yeah … probably a

cortisol spike or a blood sugar drop- Yeah

336

… or something physiological woke you up.

337

But then you jump right into your mind,

which you said, your mind is either

338

gonna catastrophize about the future

or stress about the past until you- Yep

339

can bring it into the present.

340

So my work with my people is jump out

of the mind and go right to the body.

341

Focus on the body- Yeah … because

that's where it's stored.

342

That's your nervous system.

343

That's your activation

344

system, Yeah.

345

And it's really, it's- it's so true,

though, because y- your mind is beautiful

346

at protecting you and building these

adaptations and doing all of this

347

stuff- But it's still in the past.

348

It's still in that other version

of whether you call it the universe

349

or you call it your subconscious,

whatever you wanna call it, that's

350

the part that's running the show.

351

Yep.

352

it's such a good point, and I think

it's the founder of ACT, Steve

353

Hayes, who says, "The mind is a

great tool and a terrible dictator."

354

Mm … and unfortunately, most

of us live with dictator minds.

355

and that-… like when we were,

in, in terms of our evolution,

356

that was hugely helpful.

357

That was actually what allowed us

to survive and to become, capable

358

of doing everything that we've done,

including send, people to the moon.

359

but when it comes to our emotional

world, it just doesn't work because

360

the message our mind will always give

us is the one that made sense in the

361

term, in terms of physical danger,

which is-… run, fight and hide.

362

But when it comes to our internal

emotions, if we run, fight and hide

363

from our internal experiences, A,

it doesn't work, and B, it tends

364

to make our problems even bigger.

365

Yeah.

366

And so it's a pretty, it's a pretty

radical shift in terms of how we think

367

about, what it means to, to con- to

navigate, this relationship with our mind

368

and with our, these internal experiences.

369

And I think that's a, it can be a

really powerful move for people.

370

No, it, it absolutely, I'm absolutely

believing that it can, for sure.

371

And I, that's why I was

wondering what it's…

372

So it's its own modality under the

psychotherapy- Yeah … kind of realm.

373

So- Yes.

374

Exactly it would be like people that

go and they have a therapist that

375

does IFS, or internal family systems.

376

That's exactly right.

377

that's its own thing.

378

that's its…

379

So they do a lot of parts work, and they

do- Yep … so this is just an- another

380

core, like a curriculum, I guess you…

381

Not a curriculum.

382

Yep.

383

I don't wanna put it that way.

384

But it's just another study, another

way of going about, hopefully

385

reaching as much as we can reach.

386

'Cause I feel like that's sometimes the

problem with some of these modalities is

387

it gets you so far, but it doesn't quite

get everything, and then you're like- Yes

388

"Okay, I've been to therapy for 18

years now, and I still wake up in

389

the morning and I still feel like s-

an elephant is sitting on my chest."

390

Okay.

391

that's a whole nother issue,

so go to a different person.

392

Yeah.

393

And I think that's what psychological

flexibility gives you, is

394

that there is never a point at

which- You have transcended the

395

painful parts of being human.

396

to the extent that you are living a

full and rich life and taking risks

397

and having intimate relationships and

challenging yourself, you are going to

398

encounter pain, period, end of story.

399

And when you have worked with an

ACT therapist and developed these

400

psychological flexibility skills,

we're not trying to avoid the pain.

401

We're trying to equip you to

encounter the pain and be able

402

to move through it in a way that

works, that is self-compassionate,

403

and that moves you in the direction

that you want your life to go.

404

and I should mention that

this is not unique to ACT.

405

we don't have a monopoly on this.

406

I think most therapeutic modalities do

some part of this, but ACT has really

407

taken those six core components that

I described at the beginning and put

408

them together in a way that gives

therapists and clients a very, clear

409

toolkit and way of working together.

410

And then as a client, for you to then

be able to take that toolkit and apply

411

it to your life as you move forward.

412

So yes, when you wake up 18 years later

and you feel like there's an elephant on

413

your chest, your response isn't, "Oh, I

need to go back to therapy," it's, "Oh, I

414

know what to do when I encounter anxiety."

415

and to be able to, again, move through

that anxiety and not allow it to

416

dictate what you're gonna do next.

417

And is it, can it be started, and

this is for a lot of the listeners,

418

'cause I know a lot of the people

that come on my show or listen to my

419

show are at that beginning stages.

420

Yeah.

421

They're, like, just figuring

out, "Oh, crap, my childhood

422

did really do some stuff, and I

gotta start figuring this out."

423

Can you is there, it

can be any entry point?

424

for people who don't necessarily

want to just jump in with an ACT

425

therapist, there are two really great

books by two of the ACT founders.

426

the first one is by Steve Hayes, who's

the founder of ACT, and it's called Get

427

Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life.

428

the other is called The

Happiness Trap by Russ Harris.

429

And both of those are really written for

people who are not therapists, and who

430

want to just, begin to think about how

they can apply psychological flexibility

431

in a very practical day-to-day way.

432

so for people who, maybe aren't ready to

therapy, to go to therapy or don't want

433

to at this time, or don't have access,

those are really good tools to start with.

434

and they're very readable, which

I think is helpful for those of

435

us who are trying to, make this

leap into a new way of thinking

436

without the support of a therapist.

437

Yeah, and it is, some people, I say

that all the time, it is daunting

438

for some people, and sometimes

not reachable, or not accessible.

439

I know a lot of people

that struggle with that.

440

But I do want you to give a couple

tips, because I know you work with

441

Alma and you work with thousands and

thousands of clinics, clinicians,

442

whatever, all over the place.

443

Yeah.

444

For people that are looking for a

therapist or whate- whatever it may

445

be, can you give me a couple red

flags, green flags of what to look for?

446

And also, because I say it all the

time, but I need somebody else to say

447

it, that if you don't like who you go

to see for help- Oh … and you do not

448

feel safe, that it is okay to walk away.

449

Yes.

450

And I would say not only is it

okay, it is also therapeutic.

451

And as a therapist, if I had someone

working with me who, for whatever

452

reason, just felt like I was not the

person to go on this journey with them,

453

it would be far more therapeutic for

them to say to me, "You know what?"

454

You're great.

455

It's been nice knowing you, but I need

to move on to something different."

456

That would be the biggest therapeutic win

you could ever give me as the therapist.

457

Because what that means is that

person is in touch with who they are

458

and what they need, and is willing

to advocate on behalf of their own

459

needs and their own experiences.

460

And so lest you think that I, that I

would feel like that was a failure,

461

I think, sh- that would be a win.

462

Now, I'm not saying that every

therapist would feel that way, but

463

when I'm talking to people who are

thinking about finding the right

464

therapist, learning to trust your

instinct, this is a great way to do it.

465

you talked about the potential

partner with the 19 red flags.

466

That's complicated territory.

467

But-… can you begin to allow yourself

to identify who makes you feel safe, who

468

makes you feel heard, who when you are

sitting with them feels present to you.

469

and you know what's fascinating

about this, and this is something

470

I like to talk about and teach

about, is that the most effective

471

therapists are the ones who themselves

model psychological flexibility.

472

What that means is that when you say

something hard or when I have a painful

473

reaction to something that you've shared

with me, which human, therapists are

474

humans, that happens, that I'm able

to stay with it and I don't do things

475

to move away, or, that my attention

during the time we spend together is

476

very clearly with you and not on what

I'm gonna cook for dinner tonight.

477

and that I, that your therapist's not-

Just focus on what happens during those

478

45 or 53 minutes, but that they are

really helping you think about how you

479

take what happens during that time and

apply it to all the in-between time.

480

And there is far much in, far

more in-between time, as than

481

there is, in therapy time.

482

And so when it comes to knowing that

you have the right therapist, one of

483

the things we do at Alma is having

a very robust directory where you

484

can indicate what qualities, what

identities, what characteristics you

485

want your therapist to share with you.

486

because that's important.

487

It's like we, we are going to

feel, at least initially, a greater

488

sense of trust with someone who

we can recognize ourselves in.

489

and that doesn't necessarily mean that

I'm only gonna wanna work with a female

490

identifying therapist, but it may be that

starting from a place of kind of shared

491

identity is gonna help build trust.

492

And then once you've done

that, to really learn to listen

493

to and trust your intuition.

494

And, if, you will know if you feel

safe, if you allow yourself to pause and

495

listen and ask yourself, "Do I feel seen?

496

Do I feel heard?

497

Do I feel accepted?"

498

And if your answer is no to any of those

three questions, it's probably a good

499

idea to look for a different therapist.

500

Yeah.

501

Agree.

502

yeah.

503

Agree.

504

And don't feel bad about

hurting their feelings.

505

I just, I know, I talked to a lady the

other day, and the reason I brought

506

this up, 'cause you did ask about the

red flags, is she had literally been

507

with the same therapist for, seven

years, and she's "But I just don't

508

feel like I can open up to her."

509

I'm like, "What are you talking about?"

510

Wow.

511

Yeah.

512

I was like- I need some- she felt judged.

513

And I'm like, "Okay, but

you just told me that story.

514

You've been going to 11 years for

talking to this woman-… for 11

515

years, once a week for 11 years."

516

She goes, I just feel like you

get it, or my under-" Yeah.

517

You need a new therapist.

518

Like- Yeah … and I didn't say

that in a bad way, but I'm like,

519

"Sweetie, you're going to her to

open up and to be honest with her.

520

If you can't be honest with

your therapist, where are you

521

go- what are we doing here?"

522

It's- And I also wanna really normalize

that because there's a way in which

523

if you were raised with a parent who

didn't see you, who didn't allow you to

524

open up, who wanted you to be a certain

way when you were with them in order

525

to serve their needs, then that is

actually what's gonna feel most familiar.

526

And typically, what feels

most familiar feels most safe.

527

And so here you are with someone

who for 11 years hasn't felt

528

safe enough to really open up.

529

But my guess is that there was something

in that felt familiar for her, and

530

you were offering a new alternative.

531

And I imagine that may have been

received in a very powerful sort of way.

532

yes.

533

and again, for the people out there

listening, again, we've said it

534

how many times, your brain likes

familiarity over happiness even.

535

if it's familiar, your brain is gonna go

to the path of least resistance and- Yep.

536

Yep … and it's gonna,

it's just going to do that.

537

But it's so funny, but I, when I brought

up, how did that feel sitting there?"

538

she's "Oh, I would get so angry.

539

I wanted to say something and I couldn't."

540

And, and that's what I

was kinda getting at.

541

like it wasn't- Yeah … it

wasn't familiar.

542

It wasn't comfortable.

543

It was nothing.

544

She was like, "I just wanna tell her…"

545

So f- tell a tree.

546

Literally, you would've gotten more out

of going- and hugging a tree and getting

547

that out of your body- … those feelings.

548

Yeah.

549

And you're grounding your feet in

nature and screaming at a tree.

550

Yeah.

551

Get it out, But anyway- Yeah

that was just a funny story.

552

Yeah.

553

It's a great, it's a great example.

554

But- Yeah … it really

is because I get it.

555

and we're p- how many people that grew

up in these dysfunctional households

556

grew up to be people pleasers.

557

So we don't wanna rock any boats.

558

We don't wanna c- we

don't like confrontation.

559

They don't like hurting people's feelings.

560

you're all about making people…

561

So that's just another ni- notch in the

belt as far as I'm gonna hurt somebody

562

else, and it's gonna be my therapist.

563

And so I just thought

I would bring that up.

564

I thought that was funny.

565

Yeah.

566

But you've, you've- That's a great

point … clearly worked with

567

so many people, and I love this.

568

you've done so many people,

and I love this model.

569

And tell us about how people can work

with you, where, what your services are.

570

Tell us about that.

571

Yep.

572

So Alma is a network of over

24,000 licensed therapists and

573

medication prescribers across the

US, and anyone who's looking for

574

a therapist, and m- particularly a

therapist who takes their insurance.

575

… and historically, it has been hard

to find a therapist who you feel

576

is a great match, who provides

high-quality care, who is also in

577

network with your insurance company.

578

And so Alma really exists to ensure

that people who are seeking therapy

579

and medication can find the right

therapist and have, that, that care

580

covered by their insurance company.

581

we have a directory at helloalma.com.

582

you can search for a therapist

in the directory who does

583

acceptance and commitment therapy.

584

and so that's someone who has

training in the kind of tools and

585

techniques that I've described today.

586

But we also have therapists who do

IFS, which you mentioned, and more

587

somatic body-based techniques, and

who really treat, the full range of

588

different, presenting concerns that

bring clients to therapy, and the

589

different people who are needing care.

590

and so you can find a therapist

and request a free consultation.

591

and this goes back to what you

were talking about earlier.

592

The great thing about this is that you get

to have a conversation with this person-

593

Before you commit to working with them.

594

And it's a little, I talk about

it a little bit like speed dating.

595

You can often figure out in

about 15 minutes whether this

596

is someone who you then wanna go

on and tell your life story to.

597

and so I encourage people to, find

a couple of people who might be a

598

good fit, schedule a consultation,

chat with them for 15 minutes, and

599

see, see who feels like your person.

600

and then we provide the platform for

people to be able to see that therapist,

601

and get the care they need while having

that covered by their insurance company.

602

So that is who we are and how we work.

603

and we've supported over a

million clients in finding care.

604

Wow … so it's work I'm really proud

of and I think has, really helped

605

fill a gap of peop- of this need for,

really high-quality therapy that is

606

paid for by your health insurance.

607

So- It's a matching- … I'm passionate

about it … therapy matchmaker.

608

Yeah.

609

That's exactly right.

610

Therapy matchmaking.

611

But- That's exactly right it's

true because I know people that

612

just get overwhelmed and they're

like, "I just can't do it.

613

I'm not making any more phone calls.

614

I'm not doing anything."

615

Yep.

616

But to be able to go, "Okay, this is

what I need," and it span out and- Yeah

617

a lot of, like you said, a lot of people,

a lot of the therapists are probably able

618

to work in many different states and-

Yep … online and, I say it's therapy

619

is, it's still one of those things that

peop- not everybody has access to, but

620

it's becoming easier because there are

so many people that are online, that

621

do multiple states, that meet via Zoom.

622

Although I'm still- Yep

623

Me too.

624

I don't think there will- Being

in person is- I don't know.

625

I'm all about this co-regulation,

and I'm all about- Yeah … energy.

626

So there's nothing like putting

your hand on someone's shoulders

627

and saying, "You got this."

628

there's- No … nothing like it.

629

It's- No.

630

No … there, it will never be.

631

But we're in a different world now.

632

Yep.

633

before there wasn't- And- … the

internet, And the hope is that, while

634

there is, I think, something that is

irreplaceable about sitting across from a

635

person in person, that finding a therapist

who really is focused on allowing you to

636

identify what you want your life to be

about, and then to use things, everything

637

they know to help you move in that

direction is just, is an invaluable gift.

638

So- It really is I truly believe-

I encourage everyone to do it.

639

I truly believe every second you spend,

every penny you spend, whatever it is,

640

whatever you spend any kind of energy

going towards having a better life.

641

I tell people, if you wake up in the

morning and you're not just "Whoa,

642

today's gonna be an amazing day,"

because everybody, every day is,

643

then you have some exploring to do.

644

And you're worth it.

645

Yeah.

646

Couldn't agree more.

647

Yeah.

648

Dr.

649

Elizabeth, thank you

so much for coming on.

650

I so appreciate it, but

you're not off the hook.

651

Before you leave- Yep … if you

could give the listeners one last

652

piece of advice, words of wisdom,

something tangible or- Yep … just

653

something they can take with them

today to either use or make their day

654

a little brighter, what would it be?

655

It would be that I think we tend

to over-rely on motivation and

656

willpower, and forget that we can

set up our environment to help us

657

do the things that we want to do.

658

And so an example that I give

of that is that let's say I

659

wanna drink more water, right?

660

I can hope that I remember between

meetings to stand up and walk to

661

the kitchen and pour a glass of

water and drink it, or I can have

662

a water bottle sitting there on my

desk that is always full, right?

663

That I fill it in the morning, and

all I have to do is reach for it.

664

And I know it sounds like a silly

example when it comes to drinking water,

665

but I think in terms of things like,

relationships and getting support.

666

you can set up your environment

to do some of the work for you.

667

And so if you have a book group on

every Wednesday night that you've

668

committed to, you're not having to

decide at 4:30 "Oh, I don't know.

669

I know I would feel better if

I connected with other people."

670

No, you've like already

made this commitment.

671

You've set up your environment.

672

You know where to go, and you can do that.

673

And so really beginning to think about,

okay, if I wanna change, how can I use

674

the environment around me to support me?

675

To make changing the easiest and the

most obvious response, as opposed to

676

something that I have to kinda summon

the willpower and the motivation

677

to grit my teeth and get it done.

678

And it's amazing when you think that

way and when you begin to engage in

679

your environment that way, it opens up

doors and things just become easier.

680

So- I like the water bottle example.

681

I live by it and encourage people to

think about what are the equivalents in

682

your life where you could make something

available to yourself that would

683

make doing what you wanna do easier?

684

Love that.

685

Love that.

686

Thank you so much.

687

Absolutely.

688

Yeah, I really appreciate you coming on.

689

And for everybody else out there, that

right there, and just putting into

690

perspective what she just said, is what

therapy, coaching, groups, support, it's

691

about having an accountability partner

with yourself or with someone else,

692

because sometimes we forget to take care

of ourselves, and sometimes it's not…

693

It, we…

694

It is.

695

We become, we make healing a task.

696

something we have to do.

697

"I have to do my yoga."

698

No, you should wanna get with

a group of people and feel it

699

and love it and be with it.

700

But yeah, no, that makes so much sense.

701

And that's what I kinda think of as

a therapist, honestly, is a little

702

bit of an accountability partner.

703

I know I'm checking in, I know this is

my stuff to do, I know they're gonna give

704

me things to think about throughout the

week, and it's not that I don't wanna

705

disappoint them, but I wanna have a

better life, so I'm gonna do these things.

706

And yes, there's apps that

can set you up for success.

707

There's- Yep

708

there's so many different things.

709

I am guilty of that.

710

I literally set my alarm for every 45

minutes, and I get up and I walk across

711

the room and I get a drink of water,

because otherwise- Yep … I will sit

712

at my desk for six hours and not move.

713

And then what do I do?

714

Yep.

715

I'm like, "Oh, I don't

understand why my feet are numb."

716

Yes.

717

Yeah, and that's exactly what I mean.

718

You set up your environment to help you

do the right thing, and suddenly g- doing

719

the right thing becomes that much easier.

720

Yep.

721

And, And it becomes muscle memory

… that's a really beautiful thing.

722

Yeah.

723

Absolutely.

724

It becomes muscle memory, and that's

what it needs to be, a subconscious

725

thing, where you're just grabbing for

the things that are right instead of

726

following the patterns that are wrong.

727

So again, guys, bless you.

728

Thank you so much, and I hope

you enjoyed this interview with

729

Elizabeth, and I am super excited

to let you hear what comes next.

730

So you have a blessed day,

and we'll see you back