How many students have to tell us the exact same thing before we decide to do something about it? That question sits at the center of this episode.

Throughout Season 13, we have heard students, educators, and advocates describe many of the same experiences in different ways. Students want to be known. They want to matter. They want adults to see more than a score, a label, a diagnosis, a behavior, or a circumstance. They want learning to mean something. They want to belong. And they want some evidence that when they speak, what they say actually matters.

So this week, the Wheelhouse Team comes back together to wrestle with a harder question: What happens after we listen?

Because at some point, repeated student voice stops being anecdote and becomes evidence.

We survey students. We invite them onto panels. We create advisory groups. We conduct focus groups and listening sessions. And then another group of students comes along and tells us many of the same things.

If nothing changes, the problem may no longer be whether students have a voice. The problem may be what adults are willing to do with what they hear.

In this conversation, we return to the six conditions we have been exploring throughout the season—lack of alignment, drift, fragmentation, dehumanization, instructional erosion, and future confusion—but this time we look at them through the experience of students living inside them.

Students often feel these conditions long before adults name them.

They know when our stated beliefs and daily practices do not match. They feel fragmentation across classrooms and adults. They know when learning has become something to complete rather than something worth engaging in. They know when they have been reduced to a category rather than seen as a whole person. And they know when school no longer seems connected to the future they are trying to imagine.

Which brings us back to the question we cannot avoid:

What changed because we listened?

Listening matters. But listening is not the finish line.

If student voice does not influence our thinking, our decisions, our practices, or the experiences we create, then eventually we teach students something we never intended to teach them: that telling us the truth does not really matter.

This episode is not a call for another survey. It is a call for responsibility.

Takeways

• At some point, repeated student voice becomes evidence, and evidence creates an obligation to respond.
• Students consistently tell us they want to be known as whole human beings, not reduced to labels, scores, challenges, or circumstances.
• The six conditions are not simply organizational problems; students experience their consequences every day.
• Student voice without meaningful response can become performative rather than transformative.
• Adult intention is not enough. The real measure is the experience our choices create for students.
• Listening does not mean agreeing with every student request, but it does mean taking what students tell us seriously enough to let it influence what happens next.
• The better question is no longer simply, “Are we listening?” It is, “What are we willing to change because we did?”

Follow Students Matter, LLC on Instagram or LinkedIn.

Connect on LinkedIn with each of us individually: Kathy Mohney, Michael Pipa, Dr. Alicia Monroe, and Dr. Grant Chandler.

To learn more about the Students Matter Ecosystem, stop by:

Students Matter

LearnHarbor

Until next time, remember:

Every student matters. Every educator matters. And what we create together matters.

Stay Oriented.

How many students have to tell us exactly the same thing before we decide to do something about it?

They've told us they want to matter.

They've told us they want to be known, not labeled.

They've told us when learning feels meaningful and when it feels like something to get through.

They've told us what happens when their differences are treated as problems.

And they've told us again and again and again what it feels like when the schools we design for them stop feeling like they were designed with them in mind.

So maybe the issue isn't whether we're listening.

Maybe the issue is what we do after we listen.

Today, the Wheelhouse team is back around the table to wrestle with what students have been telling us and what those messages reveal about the six conditions we've been exploring.

Because eventually, listening has to lead somewhere.

How many students will it take?

A new episode of the Wheelhouse begins right now.

Welcome to the wheelhouse.

I'm Dr. Grant Chandler, along with the Wheelhouse team of Kathy Mone, Michael Pipa, and Dr. Alicia Munro.

And after some pretty remarkable conversations this season, I wanted us to stop for a moment, not to recap where we've been, but to ask some really important questions about the conversations we've heard.

Something's been bothering me.

We talk a lot in education about student voice.

We survey students, we invite them onto panels, we hold focus groups, we create advisory groups.

We even invite them to this podcast.

And we ask them what they need, what they experience, and what gets in their way.

And then another group of students comes along and tells us many of the same things.

They want to be seen.

They want to be known.

They want to belong.

They want learning to matter.

They want adults to recognize their strengths rather than define them by their struggles.

They want some meaningful say in an experience that occupies an enormous part of their lives.

So the question I keep coming back to is how many students have to tell us the exact same thing before we're willing to do something about it?

Because at some point, repeated student voice stops being anecdote, becomes evidence, and once we know that, there is a responsibility that comes with knowing.

So today we're going to look back at some of these conversations we've been having this season and in previous seasons and connect what we've heard to the six conditions we've introduced at the beginning of season 13.

Lack of alignment, drift, fragmentation, dehumanization, instructional erosion, and future confusion.

But we're going to look at them a little differently today, not primarily through the eyes of leaders, through the experience of students living inside them.

Maybe students have been showing us where these conditions exist long before our dashboards or our strategic plans or improvement processes never catch up.

And maybe the question isn't simply whether we're willing to listen.

Maybe it's whether we're willing to let what we hear change us.

So, wheelhouse team, let's get oriented.

Good morning.

I'm Dr. Grant Chandler, and this is another episode of the Wheelhouse.

And I.

This one is going to be really, really interesting because we're all going to push each other's boundaries a little bit, and I can't wait for this conversation.

So I'm here with the amazing wheelhouse team of Kathy Mone, Michael Pipa, and Dr. Alicia Monroe, who's on the team is away in district today.

So today it's Michael and Kathy.

Good morning.

Good morning.

Hi, Michael.

Hey, Kath.

Hi, Alicia out there.

Yes.

Doing the good work.

Doing the good work.

Doing the good work.

Was in the car early this morning.

Good for her.

Good for her.

I know she.

She loves to be in the field.

Working like that was fantastic.

Although we'll miss her today, especially as you push, push, push.

I know.

I cannot wait for this conversation.

How are y' all doing?

I'm so good.

So good.

Yeah.

I just listened to a really amazing episode of this podcast, the Wheelhouse.

I don't know if you two have heard of it.

Never heard of it.

Never heard of it.

Yeah.

Last week's episode was.

Was pretty incredible with Derek and Maddie.

And I've been thinking about it about the conversation all week and then to listen, you know, as it dropped this morning, it's.

It's.

It's a good one.

It's a pull, the pull the heart, make you stop and think episode.

Absolutely.

And just want to shout out to both of them, to Derek and to Maddie, for your willingness to be vulnerable and your willingness to tell your story to people you don't know in 80 countries all over the world.

Appreciate that that takes tremendous guts to be ready, willing, and able to do something like that.

The main thing with Derek Shutt and Madison Middlestead, I would certainly encourage you to do so because it has.

Like Kathy, like you said, it's been a bit haunting.

It's been a bit haunting this week.

I think it's.

For me, it's very difficult to forget those words, to forget those reactions.

And even though this is an audio podcast, we had the pleasure of watching their faces when they were talking about It.

And you don't forget those.

No.

And haunting in a good way.

In a very good way.

In a way that's necessary, especially as so many districts are starting their school year.

I know there's some that they've already begun.

They've connected with that new group of students for the year, but there are many I know in our area.

It's all over social media here with welcoming a new class of students.

Building.

In the district, in the classrooms.

It just is.

It's so.

The.

The haunting is so vital and loved.

That once we had finished the recording, when you, Kath, asked Maddie, you know, so how do you feel?

And she felt really good to have the opportunity to share her experience in the hopes that it would help some other student feel less alone.

And that stays with me that there is that pervasive sense of isolation so many students feel.

And how it was her friends in many cases that helped her show up on days where she did not want to.

And to honestly say, then the adults and what's our responsibility?

And really listening to that voice, you know, so as, you know, a student.

But honestly, every time we have students, every single time we have students here, we hear the same thing.

I mean, it is over and over and over.

I don't know again.

So I said to Grant, you know, as we process, I was like, when is enough enough?

What.

What are we.

What are we missing that we're.

We're not listening to.

To the lowest bar we could possibly be asked to.

To make, you know, to meet by these humans that we're entrusted with.

We just.

We want you to recognize that we are here, that we matter, and that you care.

Just an ounce of caring about me would make just all the difference.

And I just think that is.

That is the lowest bar these young people could set for us as educators.

Yeah, they don't have high expectations.

They don't just.

They really, really, really don't.

They don't, you know, understanding that, yeah, it's great.

We want to learn something.

We want to be able to do this, but you just.

We simply want you to care.

So I think this is an appropriate time, time in the season, time of year for this conversation.

And I'm just gonna say, before we get too deeply into it, we're gonna push your buttons today.

So if you don't want your buttons pushed, wait till next week.

Tune in next week.

Although I know who's gonna be joining us next week, and they're gonna push your buttons, too.

So that's what this podcast is all About, Right.

So there's gonna be things that we're gonna say that, you know, you're like you, that you may, you may take offense to or you may say, that's not me, or that's not our district.

Of course we cannot, we're not speaking for, for all districts.

We're not saying that this happens everywhere.

There's good work and good people everywhere.

But there's some things we gotta really think about and we really gotta talk about that might make us all uncomfortable.

And I know that I said to, I said to all of you, soon after that episode was recorded, I was like, okay, I know exactly what we're gonna do for episode eight.

And the title is how Many Students will It Take?

How many times do we have to hear the same thing?

And as I was working on the episode arc, I was remembering a conversation that Kathy had that I have repeated everywhere.

She attended a student panel several years back and one of the things that the student said toward the end of the panel was, hey, I've had this conversation multiple times in multiple places with lots of educators sitting in the room.

And you all nod your head and you go, oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

And she says, nothing ever changes.

So what does it take?

What does it take to change?

What does it take to respond?

And so I think that's really the heart of this episode today, is how many times do we have to hear it before we're willing to do something about it?

And so I'm just going to jump right in and ask this question of these amazing folks.

Is gathering student voice easier than responding to it?

Of course it is.

She says, you didn't even flinch.

Yeah, I was like, I thought you were going to ask a hard question.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, we do all, we do it all the time.

That's what, you know, where our listeners, if anything, that's, that's where I mean, like, well, yeah, I do that.

Check that box.

We ask, we do little surveys, you know, how are you feeling?

What's going on?

And then we look at the results, we talk about the results and we say, it's not me.

Oh, what are you talking about?

I didn't.

What, whatever that, it, come on.

You know, we, we argue to say that it's wrong.

You know, we, we already do that.

They don't, they don't get it.

They're too young.

They don't understand.

We have responsibilities.

We have to get them ready for, for real life.

We gotta get em ready for life.

After high school.

I've just heard it too many times over and over and over again.

If we have to get him ready for life after high school, life after K12, then it kind of speaks a little bit to what AJ Said, which was, but wait a minute, they matter now, right?

They're not going to just suddenly matter when they're the age of 18 and they can go off and do whatever it is they're going to do.

They matter now.

There's this deferred, this deferred idea that is, you know, counterintuitive to humanity.

Right.

This is touchy feely stuff that I, I didn't go into this for that, you know, what I teach, it's my responsibility.

And, you know, this is where we, you know, the disclaimer always is, we're absolutely not saying that we educators don't have a lot to do.

We have responsibilities.

And we, we do have the responsibility to teach children how to read.

I mean, come on, why do we think that that's an absence of caring about who they are as humans or.

It's exclusive of that?

It's one or the other.

You know, why?

Why?

Where did that get said?

Where did that get taught?

I missed that course.

So I wonder if we keep asking the questions because we're looking for an answer that we're willing to accept, like, oh, I don't like that.

Let's ask again.

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep asking until you give me something that I'm not so opposed to, that doesn't fly so much in the face to the pressure that I'm feeling for the third grade reading law or for credits and all of that.

College readiness.

Those are all important.

And we're going to say over and over again, nobody says none of that is important.

Right?

Nobody says that.

But I was thinking this morning as I was getting ready for this, I follow a superintendent from New Mexico on LinkedIn, and his name is Dr. Martin Madrid, and he has this beautiful imagery that he puts up there.

But one of the comments that he said most recently was programs, schedules, teaching strategies.

None of that changes and improves people's lives.

People improve people's lives.

And I was like, dude, you gotta come on the podcast.

Right?

I don't have to reach out to you, right?

Because that's exactly right.

You get it.

That's exactly what the point is.

And our kids are telling us that no matter who we ask.

But that's assuming that schools understand their purpose to be improving people's lives.

Oh, there you go, Michael.

Well, let's just because they say, let's just go there.

That's not my responsibility.

Right, not my responsibility.

I am a content delivery mechanism.

That's what you pay me for.

And we don't give diplomas that signify we've improved people's lives.

We give diplomas that signify they've earned the necessary academic credits.

That's what we do.

Right.

And when we take that narrowed view of education and we are more than systemically encouraged to do so, we are officially told and directed that that is what professional compliance is comprised of.

Do your job.

So I have two responses to that that aren't very kind.

Right.

Number one was, thank you for your genius, Michael.

My first response is, how's that working for us?

Right, right.

How's that working for us?

I mean, just culturally, how's it working when suicide is still one of the leading causes of death in the United States of America?

Yep.

So.

So that's my first question.

Right.

Is how's it working for us if we believe that test scores drive everything?

Look at what's happening to our test scores.

Right.

It's not like we got anything to write home to mom about.

Right.

Number one.

Number two, parents and families and students are telling us, sorry, no, if that's what you're gonna do, I'm not going.

Right.

Thank you very much.

I'll just be chronically absent.

And then my second response to that is, you know, I have a one year old grandson.

I don't want to give him to people who think that way.

Yeah.

Terrifying.

It's terrifying.

Yep.

It's terrifying that as much as his parents, you know, care deeply about him and it's all about, you know, to put him into the hands of people who would think like that is very scary to me, as it should be.

And I bet it is for parents everywhere who have no choice but to do that.

I think it's just assumed that parents, well, of course you would care about my child as you're teaching them.

Right.

That's a. Yeah, that's what we pay for.

It's a, like, it's a no brainer to have that assumption and to think that just isn't what's happening.

And again, it doesn't mean it's happening everywhere.

It's not happening everywhere, but it is happening as student after student is telling us that.

And every student that we've had on this panel are they're from different areas, different experiences, different ages, different ages, different races, different demographics, like all different.

But the one thing they have in common is that they're saying the same thing over and over again.

This is our missing piece.

So the adults.

This is the missing piece.

And so when I'm reminded of a teacher asking me at one point, as I'm pushing for things to be happening different in the classroom, it's just, well, what do you want me to do?

Do you want me to care about them?

Do you want me to teach them?

And I said, both, both.

And she was flabbergasted to think, well, I can't.

Either I do this or I do that.

I. I can't do both.

I thought, what's.

Okay, then we're gonna.

We're gonna help you.

I knew that as a leader, she needs this.

This teacher needs support with that.

Michael, when you said that systemic piece, it is systemic.

You know, so comes from leadership.

And so what is.

There are things that, yes, we are responsible for.

The state is setting those bars and.

And as they should, you know, like it or not, those bars, you know, the.

The bars are the bars.

So how are we then systemically supporting our educators to ensure that it is both and that we are.

If they don't know how, which I don't, you know, I don't know how you teach people how to care about kids, but if they don't know how to balance the two of those balancing.

Right.

Yep.

Then that's where our support is.

Because you can't shift so far one way, just the same as, okay, my responsibility is just academics.

Well, my responsibility is just to love, love, love.

We still have the responsibility to teach them how to read.

So then, as leaders, systemically, how are we supporting educators to do both?

And how are we redesigning instruction and models of instruction so that good models of instruction include both?

You cannot teach a child to read.

Right.

It's not just about phonemic awareness and comprehension.

There's a human element to teaching a young.

I mean, think about how the parents would teach their kids to read.

Right.

Do we just throw them on the couch, throw a book at him, and screen phonemic awareness?

Right.

We don't.

That's not how it works.

Right.

So the instructional model has to incorporate both of those and.

Michael, you were going to say something.

I'm sorry.

Go ahead.

No, I think it begins with a declaration like Martin's to his school district about the primary objective of improving people's lives.

That's our work.

And here are the components of what we do that lead to people feeling their lives are improving.

And this is our focus.

And it isn't just expecting the Hell out of teachers to suddenly realize that urgency and to change practice.

It's realizing that all of us as human beings require this.

That if we're going to do good work, we know that we're cared about in the organization in which we're doing that good work.

We know that we're respected as human beings and that our professionalism is respected.

We need those things.

It doesn't matter what your age is, doesn't matter what label we put on you.

Student teacher, teaching assistant, bus driver, does not matter.

We either center humanity or, as you have said plenty of times, we're performing and it's pure theater, and everybody knows the difference.

I just feel, Kathy, you hit it so well when it begins with the clear declaration from leadership that we do both.

And if you're not sure what that looks like, it's okay.

Our job is to help make it clear because both isn't just possible.

It's essential.

So I'm going to give a shameless commercial because it's our show, so we get to do that.

A shameless commercial for tactical leadership, which is because, Michael, what you said at the very beginning is absolutely true.

Districts have to determine leadership, has to determine that it is more right.

That the purpose of education is not just for test scores and reading and college readiness, that the purpose of education is about improving the lives of the children they serve.

And that distinction is really, really important.

And that's a distinction that we talk about and empower leaders to do with tactical leadership.

Because if your goal is simply test score adherence, then you're not going to lead an organization, a school, a district that's going to incorporate, that's going to even be willing to look at the needs of humans, sadly.

Right?

Sadly.

And so if you need help with that, if you need help with it, if you need help rethinking what education is for and for whom.

So certainly tactical leadership in our own Learn harbor is there and available to help you to do that work.

I want to talk for a minute about the difference between student voice, student influence, and student agency.

And again, this is a challenge to all of us, right?

Because student voice says we ask them what they think.

Hey, what do you think of this?

We're thinking about doing this.

We're going to whatever it is, right?

What do you think student influence is when student perspectives shape what we decided.

Oh, do we remember, students told us this, so maybe we should really head in this direction.

That is student influence.

But we believe here at the wheelhouse and student agency, students should be helping Us create what comes next.

If we really want to move our system into a student centered, human centered learning environment, we got to do it with them.

Got to do it with them.

And I don't know if now is the right time to push on that a bit, but I want to say that maybe I'm not the only educator imagining a school building right now where I'm thinking of the students who are ready for agency.

And those would be the students who should be kind of co creating.

And that's where I want to press the pause button.

Thank you.

And I want to say it's the students you're not imagining that need agency, really need agency.

And you need their agency.

You really need their agency.

And we don't even in so many schools, in so many cases know how to begin with our students who are disassociated, disengaged, disenchanted.

We don't even know how to begin.

And we don't truly believe that they too are just as deserving of that goal, that objective of agency as any other child.

Those are the tough ones.

That's.

Michael.

I don't.

That's too hard.

They don't really come because they want to.

Right.

They're.

They're not here.

I mean, they're.

They don't care.

Their parents don't care.

Why, why would I care about having them, Inviting them to help create what comes next, what it should be, what it deserves to be.

Agency takes each.

Each.

So of course, let's, you know, are we saying then that we have to take every idea that comes from students?

Oh, gosh, we're in trouble if that truly.

So what does responsible action look like?

It comes from that systemic piece.

And I'm thinking about, you can have a space, you can have an educator that.

The experience like Maddie described with Derek and this isolation, but it doesn't, it doesn't translate across.

So I think the significance of each educator coming together in this space that allows for no matter where you are, just as Michael said, with every single person, regardless of what their role, what their title is within the district that agency is present.

And I think of agency as such a high level of accomplishment when it comes to personal voice, that we aren't simply born with an understanding of our own voice, our own sense of self and identity, how to use our voice responsibly.

None of us, none of us are equipped with all of that, all those skills we have through our development as human beings, been given opportunities and coaching and loving instruction and example after example after Example, an opportunity again and again to screw it up and to get better.

And what teachers are good at is understanding the sequence, the staircase of how you help people, feel invited to take a step and then to see the next step.

And if given the signal that this is the essential work that we need to be doing as schools, because a democratic republic was created on the idea that we would be educating our populace to be informed and participative citizens.

If we actually remember that, then there's no way you do that, there's no way you meet that charge unless you start with voice, start with providing opportunity, and have a clear idea of how you develop toward agency.

And that is how we improve lives.

If you don't have that as your main thing, why we're where we are right now.

We're having this conversation.

So the fourth tenet of powerful student care is that students come to school every day to develop self efficacy, their belief in their ability to do and self agency, where they have the power to do it.

Right.

That's the fourth tenet of powerful student care.

And the fifth tenet is joyful, authentic learning.

So if we put them all together, wow, right?

That's pretty amazing.

How do students know that their voice matters?

Not just their voice, but their influence, their efficacy, and their agency.

I think we need to move the conversation away from voice because we've given them voice, we just ignore it.

They tell us something, we don't want to do it, so we just go, thank you for that.

That's really nice.

I'm glad you said that.

Yay.

I might even have a tear or two, but I might.

I'm going to leave it and move on.

So, you know, let's think about influence, efficacy and agency.

Right?

How do we know?

How do we know when students believe in their own self efficacy and agency?

They show up, they engage, they feel it with the adults.

And each adult that they encounter, they don't withdraw, they don't do what Maddie described with, I could just put my head on my desk and nobody cares.

So there isn't that sense because they are continuing to engage in conversations, they see results of what they've asked for, they've provided.

I think when we hear students persist and seek to productively hold the decision makers accountable in their learning communities, then we know they believe in their agency,.

That ability to be able to communicate, that when we think about behaviors being a communication, they're trying to communicate something.

So when we talk about in so many educators and districts, you know, behaviors are, you know, out of this world and I can't do it because this behaviors, behaviors well.

They're trying to communicate something.

So that sense of student agency is where I've developed the ability to communicate in a healthy way because I know that I can.

And that response, that communication between myself and the adults, myself and the other students has been built and I understand that now and I believe it.

So student self efficacy and agency is not a student problem.

It's our problem.

The way we organize, the way we engage, the way we interact either builds self efficacy, student efficacy and agency or it just kind of takes it off the table.

Right?

Takes it off the table and makes it a non issue.

That's not something that students, we cannot say because I hear it all the time.

Students have to be responsible for their own learning, right?

I'm here to educate.

These students need to be responsible for their own learning.

And oftentimes I want to say they're seven, how can they do that?

Right?

They're seven.

We don't allow them to make any decisions at the age of seven.

So why would we?

How.

Are you kidding me?

Right?

They don't vote, they don't drive, they can't sign their name on anything.

How can they be responsible at seven years old for their learning?

Right.

Solely.

Right.

Solely responsible.

We're responsible and so many of us, we're responsible for their learning and so.

Many of us at key points in our development, we're not responsible enough for our learning.

And we've relied on those individuals, thank God, who are present in our lives to care.

That's why we exist as schools, isn't it?

Sometimes it's, there's so much, you know, I just think about all of the times that just these, these humans in front of me.

So whether they're 5, 10, 15 years old and this, the way that whatever's going on with them and the, the emotion in that moment and standing there thinking, I can't imagine what their bodies are feeling like right now, what's going on inside of them that is, is causing this highly emotional response.

And knowing that, that empathy for who they are as humans instead of get rid of them, they don't know how to behave, they don't know how to figure it out themselves, get them out of here until they do.

And it's hard.

It's hard.

We don't, we can't just throw kids away.

I remember and I want to honor this educator in this moment.

I don't know if she'll ever hear this comment, but as a young teacher, I Was venting my frustration over how little progress I was seeing from some of my students who I was so, so worried about.

And I was talking with Carol Lannenbacher, a colleague.

She at that point was a 30 year veteran, a math teacher, seventh grade.

And she did such a wonderful job of listening and listening.

And then she paused and said, you know, I want you to keep in mind, Michael, that you aren't expected to ameliorate every gap in learning that even one child is presenting to you all in the span of 10 months.

You are one of countless other adult teachers who are going to be working with this young person all the way through this educational system.

You have no idea the hands that are ready for this child following you and that have been there for this child previous to.

You don't carry more than you need to carry.

Remember that you are part of a really powerful process.

And it helped me take a breath and see myself less importantly in that moment.

And then to realize the importance of choosing better goals when the goals I had established were not appropriate.

And so many times that just taking that perspective and realizing that we are not the antidote all of the time for everything, but we can be the antidote in any given moment for care that needs to happen, for attention.

As we get ready to end this episode, what is one thing students have told us that you believe adults in education today can no longer afford to ignore?

Acknowledge my existence as a human being and that all of that sense of care and mattering is part of that.

It's what I need.

I just need you to care again, Michael.

Low bar, low bar.

I just need you to care, Michael.

I think that our kids, our people, are the cultural canaries in the coal mine.

And for those of us who remember a different kind of schooling experience long ago when less was expected of the adults in schools.

I don't care about that anymore.

Because we are hearing again and again that that model is no longer enough for whatever reasons, and there are plenty, it's no longer enough.

We need to prioritize the improvement of people's lives.

That's what we need to do.

And we're hearing it again and again.

So we've got to prioritize, which means we are going to be compelled to change how we do the work we are called to do.

And I know you said we're ending, but I want to challenge that a little bit, Michael, because I think that that's been.

It's always been what's needed and ignored.

So as society, as we talk about society, Changing, which I would argue it is because of.

That's a result of educational systems that are, you know, the lack of caring and these humans that are going out into the world.

But I just really think about, in my, you know, educational experience, so.

So many, you know, decades ago and as a child in an elementary school, that if they would have only.

If these adults would have only cared and listened to what was really happening in my home and probably so many other homes, and what I was coming to school and what I was carrying, how would that have been different?

So I. I think it's always been there.

Michael.

I would totally agree.

Yeah.

But I just think it looked different.

Possible for us to believe otherwise.

Yeah.

I think it's just really screaming at us now.

It is.

Could ignore it easier.

My takeaway is that students are telling us their truth when we ask them.

They're telling us we only have to ask.

Like, we hardly get the sentence out.

And they tell us.

Right.

And I know that I won't say none, but for the vast amount of.

Vast number of educators, nobody intends to create what students are experiencing.

But we've got to stop focusing on what we intend.

We got to really start looking at what students are experiencing.

Because what we intend doesn't matter.

Doesn't matter.

We can have good intentions.

We can intend to do great things for students, but if they don't experience those things, they're not happening for that particular student.

Right.

Regardless of our intentions.

So I think we have to get out of ourselves.

We gotta get out of ourselves.

We gotta stop focusing on what we're intending to do and start listening and understanding what students are experiencing.

And I want to end this episode on a series of questions.

How many students need to tell us the exact same thing before we do something about it?

And if you don't like that question, here's an easier one.

Are we listening to students?

And what changed?

Because we.

There's a line from this conversation that I don't think I'm going to shake anytime soon.

What changed?

Because we listened.

Because that really is the standard, isn't it?

Not whether we gave students a survey, not whether we invited them to a panel, and not whether we created another student advisory group.

Not even whether we listened carefully.

What changed?

Did a practice change?

Did a decision change?

Did the way we think about a student change?

Did a classroom become more human?

Did learning become more meaningful?

Did someone who had been invisible suddenly become seen and.

No.

Listening to students doesn't mean adults surrender judgment or simply do whatever students ask.

That's not the point.

The point is that if we continually invite students to tell us the truth about their experience and then nothing ever happens because of what they tell us, eventually we teach them something.

We teach them that their voice is welcome as long as it doesn't require anything from us.

And I don't think that's what any of us mean when we say students matter.

The six conditions we've been talking about this season lack of alignment, drift, fragmentation, dehumanization, instructional erosion and future confusion aren't abstractions.

Students live inside them.

They feel them.

And very often they tell us about them before we have language for what is happening.

So maybe our work is not simply to find better ways to hear students.

Maybe it's to become the kinds of adults and build the kinds of schools that are capable and willing to respond to what we hear.

Because eventually the question cannot remain, are we listening?

It has to become, what are we willing to change because we did?

Until next time, stay oriented.

We'll see you next week for another episode of the Wheelhouse.