Do you take the time to design for your own wellbeing?

When we’re being the change we want to see in the world, it’s easy to focus on hard metrics: more sales, more leads, more success.

But what if your body suddenly says “no”?

As the saying has it, our health is our truest form of wealth. But how often do we check in with ourselves and explore what we might need?

On this episode, Carlos and Laurence are joined by Pelin Kazak Bagatur, a product and UX design leader who’s deeply passionate about the intersection of design and wellbeing.

She shares how her perspective on health has evolved through personal experiences with yoga, mindfulness, and a deeper exploration into spirituality and wellbeing.

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we are, we are so happy to invite Pelin.

Uh, she's a Vision 2020 alumni.

Uh, she's also, uh, a designer, uh, and also and blending that

with her own passion for wellbeing.

But I won't go into much detail laboring, uh, all the details about

your career and the way you you work.

I, I'd love to for you.

To maybe share, what is energizing you at the moment?

What's taking your time, uh, and focus at the moment, uh, and maybe

a little bit of how you got to here.

Yeah.

So right now, especially these weeks, um, being in the spotlight is

energizing me and getting my attention.

So with this, and yesterday I was also, uh, a guest at, uh,

Anya from Happy Startup Schools, well, uh, happiness Summit.

And also there's gonna be another talk at UX Crunch next week.

Uh, so in two weeks from now in London.

So all of a sudden there's so much spotlight and my motto

right now is enjoy the spotlight.

And that's like also self-growth, um, like reading, uh, the book

of Tar Moore on a playing big.

So yeah, I think the topic right now is playing big and sharing, what

I know, what I've learned so far.

so this, this blending of, it sounds like your professional

knowledge and experience with a, passion for wellbeing.

And you talk about the spiritual aspects of wellbeing, the physical

aspects through yoga and mind, and the mental aspects through mindfulness.

well, has that always been an interest and a passion for you?

And, and if not, how, how was it cultivated?

How was it kickstarted?

Um, so actually it wasn't at all.

Um, I was, my dad reads a lot of self, like self-help and personal

development books and I was making fun of that and I was like totally

skeptical about being spiritual.

but I was happy with that, uh, five years ago on my like 30th birthday.

I made a wish and the wish was finding out what I want in life.

Please universe tell me.

Yeah, just, I just wanted to find it out.

And the years before I, uh, figured that, you know, like

the wishes of birthday work.

So I was like, okay, I'll go back and I think it was like three days

later or so, I woke up with a horrible pain and I didn't know what to do.

It was a pain that would knock me down to the floor and at that moment,

my wellbeing journey started and yeah, I can take you through it.

Yeah.

Well, but yeah, this is just like I asked for it and it came in a pain.

Not in the way

you expected.

Yeah.

Just we have to be clever and I think more specific about

how we want, what we ask for.

Well, I think I'd like to go into that story 'cause it's gonna

lead us up to, to the work, uh, and, and everything you've learned.

But before that, I'm really curious, this 30-year-old Len and she says,

you know what I want, my wish is for the universe to tell me what I want.

Is that right?

Yeah.

what was going through?

Why, why did you need to know that answer?

Yeah.

I felt at a point in my life that, you know, like many of the things

are achieved and I think until 30 life is more or less, more linear.

You know, like finish school.

And then I knew I wanted to be a designer and I became a designer

and I wanted to move like.

Do my masters in a good university, did that, wanted

to live abroad, move to Berlin, wanted to become a design manager.

That happened also socially, I'm happy.

So like it was quite, uh, well achieved life at that point for me.

and then I was wondering what's next, like I realized I

didn't think afterwards and was curious was so about a milestone

as well, because we meet a lot of people who are turning into

the next decade, 30, 40 now ask 50.

So it feels like, yeah.

Is that a reason?

I dunno, some people think, oh my god, when I'm 30 I thought

I'd be doing something else.

Or life would feel different or I dunno, just that milestone.

Yeah, it could be the milestone.

Now I call them like, you know, like how, um.

Software systems has versions.

So like version three is like 30 years.

And then I'm curious what version four would be less buggy

version than the one before.

Yeah, I was curious what that version three would be and

wanted to get some clarity on it.

but I was, I can say that I was quite content with where I was, so it's not

like it was already painful and I was asking for it to get rid of the pain.

I was just curious about, you know, what is gonna be next.

it is interesting.

The way you described it is like the, the road up to 30 was linear.

I did this, you know, I, I was gonna set this, uh, goal, this

set, this milestone, I achieved it.

Another one achieved it, another one achieved it.

Friends achieved that, so everything's fine.

Yeah.

But wanting to know what, what else.

Yeah, I could get do B.

Yeah.

Because I have this like birthday to make a vision.

I wasn't very sure what to wish for, so I thought, okay, what should I wish for?

So you tell me.

So it wasn't a new car or a bigger house.

It was

No, no.

Like, yeah, more or less I was happy and yeah, I'm usually a positive person.

I was like that before Pain, after pain didn't change much.

Um Mm.

Yeah.

Just curious.

Mm-hmm.

Well, it sounds like curiosity then caught up with you.

Yeah.

And maybe share the experience of then this, well, three days

later, you just coming down with this experience of physical pain.

Yeah.

So it was really, really bad pain and I tr needed to

understand what was going on.

It's a pain that is just like.

There if I talk, if I, I don't know, like breathe, like any po moment,

it can come and it knocks me down.

So of course there's a lot of likes and I went to a couple of doctors in Germany

and in Turkey, and then it came down to a diagnosis called trigeminal neuralgia,

which is a rare neurological disease.

And it doesn't have a cure in Western medicine unless

there's a tumor in the brain.

That could also cause, luckily it wasn't the case for me and I

was looking online what to do.

I found people who has, who was going through this, and I asked

like, how are you dealing with it?

And like, I didn't get a good answer.

And like it said that it's called a suicidal disease also.

So like when I looked for answers, it, I did not get anything good out of it.

and yeah, did a lot of things.

I, um, I had a, um, you know, I had treatments on my, uh,

teeth in case it was related to that because the pain was here.

I think it was like three months that I was living with that.

And it is so interesting.

It's teaching me also in a way that anything, any slight

thing that bothers me, uh, psychologically the pain comes in.

It could be a person, it could be a TV show, it could be like anything

you can imagine that bothers me.

I have pain, so it's so like a switch.

So I already started learning like the things I thought that are not

that much bothering me, like some of them are actually bothering me.

but then like it was still there.

And eventually I went to the doctor again, asked for taking,

giving me time off from, from work because I can't work.

And he told me that he can't, because I want to get better

if he gives me time off.

He said, you have to, and this is something I live all my life with.

So I said, you have to figure it out.

So if you can't work, maybe you shouldn't work.

This is just so like, so bold.

And then I said, okay, what can I do?

So he said, you have to be away from stress.

You, uh, being by the sun and warm country with the people you

love would be nice and help you.

and I, and then I said like, tell me something.

There must be a way, you know, like, I can't find it.

And then he said, you didn't hear this from me, but you might look

into Eastern healing techniques.

Wow.

And that's my lucky point, like going to that doctor is where I

got lucky because I was a skeptic on Eastern healing methodologies.

I just, because I didn't know.

and now because a doctor said you need to figure out how to live with

this yourself and maybe you look into methodologies and healing.

Um, luckily at that point I was going to a mindfulness based stress

reduction course and I already figured that during meditation, mindfulness

meditation, my pain was getting like lower, still there, but lower.

I asked my meditation teacher, what can I do?

Where can I go?

And she pointed me to a place in Thailand called The Sanctuary

and she said, you'll find something there and went to work.

Um, at that point, I'm a design manager, said, when earliest can I take a leave?

They said, in one and a half months I booked my tickets.

I wasn't able to do anything anyway.

Like that was the only thing I did.

Like, I booked my ticket, put myself on the plane, went to Thailand, and

then all the change started happening.

Luckily three weeks later, my pain, pain was gone and still didn't come back.

Uh, I feel just like so lucky about this one doctor telling me,

you know, wow, just take a break, get some sunshine, and check the

eastern healing methodologies.

At any point did you think undo, like, rewind?

Why did I ask that question?

No, no, no.

I'm, I, I'm happy with it.

Like I'm just, I just know, like now I ask like I make wishes in a different

way, so I just don't wish for it.

I ask for the things to come with ease to me.

Okay.

A bit more context.

Yeah, yeah, a bit more context.

So whatever I pitch, bit like chapter team, don't just

give it broad, uh, instructions.

Yeah, exactly.

A bit more specific.

So there's a few things, here.

one is kind of what you've learned about pain.

Curious.

It sounds like you've got, uh, I assume you have more of awareness of, of

what, what pain is and how it works.

Um, and also maybe a bit of what you were practicing there in Thailand

and whether you were able to pinpoint a particular practice that was

specifically beneficial to you.

That seemed to, well, something's happened to the pain from that practice

and I, I dunno how best to describe it.

So I'd be curious to hear from you.

So The sanctuary, the place in Thailand, they had a lot of things like

acupuncture, I don't know, like healing through Mongolians, singing, like

all sorts of things you can think of.

What helped me the most.

So I was, uh, there, I joined a yoga teacher training there just

because it was happening and I thought in case I can't do design

again, maybe it's good to have another job that could also heal me.

and actually it was meditation, but more than that, breathing.

Um, maybe that's why I'm still using breathing and at every moment of my day.

So pranayama and we were starting every morning with a, like with slow reading

combined with movement, and I wasn't aware of such a yoga style before.

So it's like very slow moment and eventually I.

the time you take just one breath, like one inhale and one

exhale just extends so much.

It's almost like creating time, like slowing time down.

So in 15 minutes maybe I'm doing like, I don't know, like 10

moments, but like repetitive.

and then we were also doing yoga and there was yoga

nira, which I also use a lot.

Um, so it's the called yogic sleeping.

So it's, uh, it's deeper.

The meditation gets you into the brainwaves that you are in while sleep.

REM sleeping through guidance and helps with healing.

So yoga, nira breathing.

And I think also the moment those combined help me get rid of the pain.

Um, and I now, I curated my own, morning routine and breathing

techniques, like following the pain, you know, like I was learning them,

but curating my own toolkit, I was just collecting what helps me more.

'cause I think everybody has different needs in the end.

So now I have that, uh, toolkit, uh, that I'm using

every day since five years.

Like it's my morning routine.

That's what I do and I know it helps me.

So I, for one, and I'm sure a lot of people out there will

say, breathing's, just breathing.

You know, do it.

Don't think about it.

It's kind of natural.

Is there anything that you've learned about breathing that will Yeah.

Help people understand the power of it if you do it intentionally?

No.

So one thing is the vagus nerve, uh, so I'm not that much in

like, I'm not neuroscientist, but I'll share about it as much as I know.

But it is the nerve that's helps with easing our whole nervous system.

It's like the one central one.

And it can work better if you're sitting up straight.

And when we are breathing with like a little bit of

sound, it also gets activated.

So it also suits the nervous system.

Another thing is, uh, the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system

and sympathetic is active when we are nervous and anxious, even though

the name sounds like sympathetic.

But yeah.

And then the parasympathetic is the one when active, when you're more calmer.

So breathe.

So imagine you're anxious, your breath gets faster and you

are breathing from your chest.

that means if you control your breath, you can also control your emotions.

So if you consciously bring your breath to your belly and start inhaling

and exceling deeply from your belly, then you'll realize you get relaxed.

Um, so just purely that like that we have control on our emotions was huge.

Now I know it, it's like no brainer.

But at that point it was just huge for me.

So I learned how to move my breath and be conscious about it.

So like if you put your hands on the chest and the belly, like you can look

right now where the breath is going.

And now I feel, because probably I'm a bit excited, it's up in the chest.

So if I can bring it down to my belly, I think even my voice

changes and feel more calmer now.

And I can take on, and this is where the resilience comes in.

I can take on tasks that might be more stressful.

and I think because I learned all of these, even though probably I

have like a weaker nervous system, but I have all these tools, so

it didn't in the end, uh, change.

Like I didn't have to quit doing design or move away from a city

because now I can balance it.

So, um, one way of thinking about how we work as humans is.

There's my head, there's my body.

It's all my thoughts and feelings and emotions are in my head,

nothing to do with my body.

And then that, I think is, is one of the reasons maybe why we work,

overwork ourselves, stress ourselves out doing things because we, we

think there's this separation.

You know, if I push through, I think my way through, I'll be fine.

It sounds like you've had a visceral experience of how that's not the case.

and another thing, this is I feel is connected to where I'm seeing this

coming together, wellbeing and work.

Mm-hmm.

And these two things do compliment each other in some way.

I don't know.

I'd be curious to hear your perspective now because in a sense, you needed

to work on your wellbeing in order to work, and now you're using

wellbeing as a way to enhance work.

I'm assuming.

Yeah, so there's the focus, of course, that increases

like memory increased so much.

I can't even believe.

I thought I was just getting older and that was it.

I was actually distracted.

So like, you know, being there for every interaction helps with focus.

And also what I want to come to is like, the more we create space for

ourselves and understanding, then we know what deeper values are.

So there are also exercises to connect to our values, which are more analytic.

And I use them with people who are curious to explore their values.

But for me, it happened naturally because I spent so much time, um,

slowing down, breathing and meditating, like all of a sudden wasn't coming from

my brain, what I want and what my values are, what it was coming internally.

They say, you know, like how mind is the observer for meditation.

So if it's coming that much internally, you can't really unsee.

And I knew at that point design and creativity was

something I always wanted to do.

And creativity is like a value for me.

It's been there since childhood.

It's still here.

And design is a professional way that I can pursue creativity.

So then like finding that out.

I'm way more attached to what I do.

And now it's about how I do it.

Okay.

You know, like I know design, I care about design.

What do I use design for?

And there comes purpose.

Like do I want to design for any topic?

Of course I got extra That interesting about designing for wellbeing.

and then this whole journey started off like switching into freelancing

so that I can spare one day for myself doing yoga, taking care of my

own wellbeing, and then freelancing because I wanted to be close to my

family and I wanted to pick the clients that I can so I can have more impact.

That's how I started affecting my work life, and then it

just evolves and evolves.

well linked to the, this sort of radar you have for pain, I'm

curious whether it's been a guide for you in terms of this direction,

because you know, you talk about wanting to move more into designing

for wellbeing in terms of maybe the clients you work with or just the

approach they have or the values.

Do you find, do you feel it in your body?

If part this way, is your body a good guide for a.

Which projects you say yes and no to, like a very specific level.

Can you sort of feel like if something doesn't feel right

from that sort of visceral level?

Yeah, yeah.

And pain was a good guide for that.

But as I got rid of the pain, but I, you know, I learned

the tools to read my buddy.

So there had been a couple of, uh, times that I worked with company

or a client that didn't feel right, but I thought, no, it'll be okay.

And then it wasn't.

So like I, I had my proof and then in time I'd learned to read it to my body.

And, um, the easiest way I find to explain this is with people,

or it could be with a topic in a meditative state, closing your eyes,

imagining yourself taking your, that action or being with like, you

know, like talking with that person.

And then imagine if it's a person that the person gets closer to you.

Is there a change in your body?

And what kind of a change is it?

And then imagine that person is going away from you again.

What kind of a feeling do you have in your body?

Or if it's an action, imagine yourself getting more deeply involved

in the action and just observe, like, do you breathe differently?

Do you feel like a cramp?

This I found really the best, best guide for any decision.

Almost like roleplaying it out

Because it's gonna happen in, you're gonna sit in front of that person

or you're gonna take that action so you can already, yeah, be in that moment

and see if that's gonna be good for you.

and then it, that comes the topic of how do we differentiate

anxiety, like good anxiety, and.

Yeah.

You know, like excitement,

what's fear and what's, yeah.

Yeah.

That's why we practice.

It's just, you know, like maybe right now it's a bit high level,

but it's something we can learn and train the brain and body with.

that's why I keep meditating every day.

So I keep touch in touch with my body.

And I guess like you, this phase, these, these few weeks you've

got of being in the spotlight, there's an element of, I can imagine anxiety

around that, but also excitement too.

So knowing Yeah, what's good for you and what's gonna help you grow versus what's

going to make you diminish in some way.

So there's, um, something here about following, feeling, uh, being

discerning about what those feelings are telling you, whether it is they're

stopping you from going outta your comfort zone and going into a grow

zone, or they're telling you something really important about what not to do.

And so it's like mm-hmm.

Is it one, is it the other?

What do I do right now?

And it, it sounds like there's very much a, um, a practice involved in that.

I'm curious, there's two things for me.

So like, one question is around how is this something that

people, creatives are more in?

Yeah.

And I'm going to be a bit broader.

Creatives are more in touch with people who, who, who are in the,

uh, either creative industries, creative roles, you know, the,

the, the workers around creativity.

There's a connection, whether there's a connection there.

and yeah, and then connected to that is this idea of pain.

Mm-hmm.

Being a fast track, uh, to listening to our bodies.

my chiropractor was telling me like, uh, pain is a signal to

stop doing what you're doing.

Yeah,

yeah.

Okay.

I get it.

I won't, I won't do that.

But there, there was an analogy, there's something, a metaphor

there around whether that's emotional pain, physical pain.

There's something around learning pain.

Just fast tracking you today.

Do you know what?

Stop, think, do something.

Don't just plow on.

But that's also linked to this idea of it's a feeling and what are the other

feelings that are trying to inform us of the decisions we make, whether, and

you talked about values being in the gut, so I'm just curious if, if you,

how you connect those things, if at all.

Hmm.

Well, um, pain is interesting because there's also learned pain.

So, you know, pain tells you to stop, but there's again, a game with pain.

Like if you had pain for a long time, at which point it's just there chronically.

Mm-hmm.

And at which point you can actually move on.

So like for me it was a game of, you know, like, but like pushing on it,

like, you know, becoming somewhat like friends and playing with it.

And I think it's like that with most of the emotions, you know, just

accepting that they're there and then like looking, okay, how much do you

allow me to do the things I want?

Mm.

Checking in.

Uh, another uh, tool I use is, um, transforming motions.

So can I transform anxiety into excitement?

That's something I played with a lot.

I felt that there, I feel the both of them in the, at the

same part of my body, like here.

And if I feel anxiety, just thinking, okay, this is something

new probably, so how can I get curious and be excited about it?

And it helped me a lot.

Uh, and then I created cards of what is the self I am enjoying

and what is like, what is the not self with like opposites on each.

And then sometimes I look at that card and see where am I?

So it's not an emotion, but like more um, like shy, oh yeah,

it's anymore shy is on one side.

And then on the other side is like outgoing and sharing.

So like couple of like, maybe like 10 items there.

I look at it.

Just play with it.

And it's not always easier have to sit, I have to sit with it, of course.

You know, just give it space and then see if I can change it.

Sometimes it's easy, sometimes, sometimes it doesn't happen.

And I just have to respect.

Well, I hear it's a practice, uh, and so it takes some time and maybe

a little bit of effort to not just act.

Um, but at the same time, it feels like it's an antidote to

reacting and not just mm-hmm.

Unconsciously following a path, without reflecting on

why that path is attractive or something you need to go down.

Yeah.

Oh, and about emotions.

One more that I use a lot, um, after meditation or

yoga, uh, during Shavasana.

I focus on creating joy, just like from the, from this part.

Just like focus on that area and think of joy and imagine it like growing.

And sometimes I can really make it and just, just goes all around my body.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, but yeah, this really happens like after a long while, like

initially wouldn't happen.

This is like pro level.

Yeah.

Well I think this is, this is telling, talking to how we can,

um, change our lived experience Yeah.

Through the practices.

Exactly.

And where you can, I can imagine, and I've been there myself, where

you can feel like life is happening to you and you know, things are bad.

And so it's, it's a bad situation.

But what I'm hearing there is this, through this practice, you're able

to cultivate some resilience to that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Generating your own joy.

Having somewhat of a control.

Like I think we just have to, I, I'm, uh, accepting that I don't have

that much control in life, and it's a mystery, but somewhat of like,

some moments I can have control.

And it starts with like first awareness of yourself, of

your body, and then emotions.

Like even reading what emotion is happening takes some time

and then transforming them.

Hmm.

So like the first step is just being aware that, okay, I'm

sitting here and I'm breathing.

That's already a big step.

And I think there's an antidote, particularly in the world

of work where we are very, very busy feeling the need to achieve.

We can get lost in our heads.

Yeah.

And we, we forget that we are here.

I.

'cause we are somewhere completely different trying or getting towards a

future and worrying about that, whether that's a project deadline or a imminent

launch of a group coaching program.

Um, I wanted to, um, just, uh, sort point to Mark's comment here.

How much do you think finding a purposeful path in life can

impact these things as well?

So this idea, I think of purpose and how that affects our, uh, wellbeing.

Can these techniques help you find the path and or stay on the path?

So after that break that I healed, I had answers, but big answers.

So how do I change the life now?

You know, that's the hard work, and it took like two, three years to actually

integrate all the insights I got there.

Mm-hmm.

so I think like having a purposeful life for me had been a way of wellbeing, but

also like, through just like looking after my body and being, well, I found

that purpose, but for me, the switch was with, uh, the support of cognitive

behavioral therapy because like, how do I implement all of those to my life?

You know, it's, I'm gonna say easy.

It's not easy, but you know, I'm just in a remote island, like

meditating all day and so on.

But what happens if I'm like daily going to work, dealing

with like social interactions?

What do I change and where do I start?

Um, so knowing my purpose, what I want and what I value,

I started doing the changes.

Like step by step.

But I, I actually almost freaked out in the beginning and I was asking my

therapist, like, how do I change it?

And she said, just one by one.

So like first of all, placing some habits that is gonna be

helped keep me healthy, which is the morning routine I have.

And then maybe looking for a job that would align with my values,

looking for relationships, finding, you know, like finding places.

So all of them, when they come together, I think they really help

us stay in the path, like once they're created together, because

you can see when you're off track.

And at that point I started.

Creating my frameworks eventually, like, but it happened organically.

Now I have this like, uh, template framework where I check in what's

going on with my life and where I am at the beginning of each year.

Meditate on it.

I decide on my habits for the year.

Um, uh, or I do like my, like journey map, emotion map.

So I have these tools and like journaling that's been in my life

always, but like still keeps on.

So just checking again continuously to stay in the path.

and one tool I found most useful is like finding the three values.

And there's a exercise I do for it called like San Alpa, combining

with like a persona, uh, persona, methodology of design to find your,

like three values and then checking in.

Am I close to those values at my work, my relationships, and I don't

know, like my, uh, emotional life.

Financial life and all of them that also helps keep keeping track.

Maybe then, do you wanna share a bit more about your 10

pillars and, um, what, how Yeah.

How you came to pull them together and Yeah.

How they're helping you at the moment.

So, um, as soon as I started freelancing, a friend who knows

my journey, a colleague introduced me to a startup who is working

on, uh, while being at workplace.

And they are, they're looking at it from a scientific perspective.

So they define their framework through like neuroscience.

And that works great for my, like, still like analytical brain, which

is also interested in wellbeing.

So they have this, uh, wheel which has five dimensions, and

I'll tell you what those are.

It is, uh, body, mind, meaning social connectedness and self-fulfillment.

So that was a starting point for me.

And I know in coaching all like usually starts with life field.

I looked into different life fields and created my own.

So like with every methodology, I just catered that to myself, like

taking it from different resources.

So mine is, and I don't know if it'll always stay 10,

it started 12, now it's 10.

Maybe it'll get less in the end.

Um, but for me it's um, career and financial life.

So that was new for me to split career and financial

life before I always thought.

If I have a job that pays well my financial life as well, um,

now I know the difference, my love life, my emotional life.

So putting emotional life in the life will also gives you ownership about

the emotions that we talked about.

My character, how do I choose to move in the world?

Um, my health and fitness, my intellectual life, my social

life, my spiritual life.

And also the quality of life.

And quality of life was also, a big awareness point for me because

sometimes it's even hard to admit what kind of quality we want in life.

So like, could be sometimes humble about the quality we expect and just putting

it out there already is a big step.

So I'm just checking in with those 10.

And then, uh, prioritizing couple that I think, uh, are important for that year.

And then deciding on habits.

That will help, to, you know, like on that area and then try to build

a habit, which is another big topic.

Even though I've done it, it's still difficult, like

building a habit, takes effort.

So, just to illustrate that process, you have these 10 pillars.

It sounds like you defined what they mean for you in terms of, um,

well, I didn't, yeah, I was gonna say what success means or what

purpose means, but there's, there's something that, that gives you some

guidance as to then to decide what behaviors you want to adopt in order

to promote those aspects of your life.

What does that mean to you practically?

You talked about journaling, you do.

Uh, do you focus on two a day?

Do how, how, how for someone who wants to think about building

such a habit of, of checking in.

What would you suggest to them and how do you practice it?

so like this work of like templates, I do it only once a year.

Like I do it, but don't take it too seriously.

So I put it out there and let it be.

And then as you like, those habits, let's say as you suggested, like

journaling, then um, actually comes behavioral design methodologies I use.

So there is a model called com, B-T-O-M-B, capability.

Opportunity and motivation leads to behavior change.

So let's say you want to journal, um, are you, do you

have the capability to journal?

Can you actually write.

Yes.

Okay.

Opportunity.

Do you have a pen and paper?

Okay.

These are fine.

Motivation is the tricky one.

So how to get the motivation.

And motivation could be intrinsic or extrinsic.

So if, if you need the motivation, probably at that

point it's not intrinsic.

So you are looking for motivators outside.

And unfortunately, pain is a very good motivator, extrinsic motivator.

So for me, that was the motivator.

Now it turned intrinsic eventually, but there could be softer ones.

Like you can be motivated through reports, you can be motivated

through being in a group setting, uh, you know, doing it with friends.

You can be motivated by having a coach, like someone guiding you.

Or like checking, you know, like collecting, like the self-monitoring.

So probably you can find out this looking back into like what are

the things you made a habit before?

And then use the same methodology for something that you learn new.

I see like one, I would say mistake people might do is thinking, let's say

journaling has to be, because I don't know, it's said, so it has to be in

the morning first thing right after I wake up and I have to do it on my own.

And that's it.

So if that's not the way you gain a habit, it's not gonna work.

So like how do you do it?

Is it in a class environment and maybe there's a course about journaling.

Join that for a week and then try again.

So using those extrinsic motivators to create intrinsic motivator.

It's the way to have that habit and it takes time.

So you might switch between extrinsic motivators.

do you have days, ' cause it sounds like a daily

practice for both your sort of wellbeing rituals and journaling.

Is, is there days where you fall off the wagon?

Because I can imagine for a lot of people, building a habit's

hard, maintaining a habit.

If they miss a day, for example, they lose heart and then maybe

they don't pick it up again.

So

yeah.

Any words of wisdom for someone who struggles with, particularly

I think if people have like family commitments or life happens to them

and something happens that stops 'em from doing the thing that they Yeah.

Like again, comes to purpose.

Like how clear are you that you want to have that habit?

For me, like I knew meditation helps.

And I have to do it not to have pain, which is horrible.

But still, it was difficult.

But because of my purpose was very clear, I have to be well, and this is

the way, then I could get back to it.

If it, if the purpose and like why you want to do it.

If you're not convinced, then it'll go away.

But if you're convinced, then it's fine.

There will be gaps.

But because you are like, you know, you want to gain that habit because of a

reason, purpose, that's very important to you, then you'll get back to it.

And then eventually it'll be like brushing the seed.

Yeah.

And that could be days you don't brush your teeth.

It's fine.

but I don't think it'll be too long.

Yeah.

It's just, it's just we do, we do it.

It's internal.

It's intrinsic.

Yeah.

I think, um, what I'm really appreciating about this approach that

you're taking where you're tackling some kind of big topics in life.

You know, what do I want?

How do I make decisions?

Where do I move forward to?

Uh, and at the same time, you are providing, uh, kind of a structure

from which to how to look at that.

So having your 10 pillars, those 10 pillars, guiding behaviors, having

this kind of, um, way of looking at how behaviors are created by thinking about

capability, opportunity and motivation.

Uh, and then I heard Lauren say, you know, well, what happens

if you fall off the wagon?

What happens if you, you can't keep it up?

How do we use these tools to keep going in a sense?

So that's one aspect.

Okay.

And you talked about, okay, maybe it's about the motivation, maybe what

is it that's not stop, that's, that makes you stop or makes you continue?

All of that for me is, is, is part of the process of understanding

what you actually want to do, because it sounds like as well,

it's like if you can't keep it up.

Either A, it isn't something you should be doing in the first place, or B, there

is something to inquire more deeply about the motivation or the capability,

or the opportunity that brings just more awareness to how you live your life.

If you aren't right, you have to speak it.

If you don't have the opportunity in the morning, morning, then you have to let

go of that and do it in the afternoon.

I'm just, yeah.

It feels like this.

These are all not just, instructions on how to live a more purposeful

life, but pathways to learn what it actually even means to deliver one.

Yeah.

And this process you're sharing here is, is is an easy way, well,

an easy, a clear way to that place.

Yeah.

And yeah, it's, it took time, but I think it's really about, you know,

like, let's learn about these ways.

You know, I was curious about learning behavioral design and life

feel and how science or, you know, wellbeing perspective, they look

into this, but make it your own.

And I think that's where it connects to the motivation part.

You know, you don't have to like necessarily stick

to like exact methodology.

Someone suggests, like experimenting with it, like seeing how it fits

for your day, uh, for yourself and yeah, if it doesn't sit

right, maybe leave it, change it.

Yeah.

On that word motivation then, what's motivating you right

now, um, with this work and what you, you bringing it to others,

what is it that you are wishing to.

Exploring, uh, and do, um, with this work of combining wellbeing and design,

I just feel like I have to pass it on.

I feel very lucky that I not living with pain and I couldn't find it, um,

around me or online at that point.

So just feels like, I don't think about it.

Again, it's internal, like I'm lucky and it's like being grateful and

sharing back, and that's motivating me.

It's something I can't really stop.

Sounds like you've been called to

do it.

Yeah.

I had the calling.

I want to share if you know, it's like the quote and

you said earlier, we hurt for two reasons.

One, we learn enough to want to, and two, it hurts too much not to.

Yeah.

Sounds like the letter for you.

But it took me, of course, a while, like talking about this, I felt

like if I put my attention to the pain again, I will somehow get it back.

So there was a bit of fear.

Mm-hmm.

And it took me some time to work through that pain and

now talk about it and sta it.

And you've been, you know, you've gone through

Vision 2020 and you've been working with Lawrence closely.

How, how has that, what input has that been on your journey with this work?

'cause there's a intrinsic motivation to do it.

It sounds your calling, but it sounds like you were called to, to

get support in some way as well.

yeah.

The part that wasn't immediately clear to me was how to

design and wellbeing connect.

Now it's very clear, like all the things we talked, I can map it into a framework

of design thinking from discover.

Define design and deliver, like all the methodologies fit into that.

So I think like, first of all, um, just the support, mentorship,

and this is my motivator.

That's how I actually learn.

So I learn in a group setting and when there's like a coach and mentor, so,

uh, because I knew it, I was looking for it and Happy Startup School and

Lawrence's guidance was the right place.

And, and then the frameworks that you have in the programs, that

helps, again, with my thinking side, you know, putting things into

format because I had so many ideas.

Uh, there's this experiment board where we have, yeah,

you're like, gimme the tools.

I need the tools.

Yeah.

And then I was just writing like ideas, ideas, ideas.

And then you had no shortage of ideas.

Connect, yeah.

How do they connect?

Uh, so yeah.

And then with Momentum Program, now again, getting more and more clear.

Yeah.

So.

Structure for structure, all the tools and methodologies you provide.

And for my own motivation, just as like the group, um, my buddies in

2020 and momentum and my guidance I have from Lawrence, but also from

New Carlos and Nana, I never needed, um, just brought the things together.

Now I know what I'm talking about

and it's very clear.

We can hear that very well.

I can hear, and it might very clear, it might be worth

talking about the, just the quickly the journey of this,

this retreat that you're putting on.

Oh, well I

was gonna get to that actually, because what I heard there, Laura, um,

fellen is like, you had lots of ideas.

Mm-hmm.

And what was that process of finding the ideas that you could focus on?

And then we can talk about the idea that you're focusing on right now as well.

'cause that would be mm-hmm.

Really helpful place to finish.

So, um, in the tool you have like a, a grading.

I used that, like, how much am I gonna learn from this?

Uh, how much effort would it be for me?

Uh, would it make money?

I think like there were a couple of, uh, points that I can, that

helps with grading the ideas.

Um, I did that and then I also looked into like what seems like a good

challenge that makes me excited, uh, in a good way, like fear, excited that

I would like to do with the support of a group and, um, retreat was it.

And also it's very much connected to where my journey to wellbeing starts.

And I think there's magic in taking the break.

Like we gather all the tools to actually implement it in

our lives after the break.

But like, what a break can do, it's just like I.

It's special and it's, so,

yeah.

Well, why, why don't we talk about this cre, the creative break.

Who, who do you wish to be there?

You know, who are you really wanting to be on this?

What, and what is it that you are hoping, what is this journey of

change that you're taking them on?

so they might have a little bit of like feeling that they need a break.

Maybe they're suppressing that, or maybe they're trying to combine that with,

I don't know, a holiday with someone, but like this feeling of, okay, I need

this break and that's already enough.

or I'm think, um, it's a creative break.

So it's aim for creative leaders.

And the reason is that I know that that's been my journey.

The tools I've collected is for a creative leader.

But anybody call feeling that calling.

Um, I think should be, could be a part of it.

Um, yeah, that need of, I need a break or I need a breathing

space, but I don't know what it is and not sure if I deserve it or

not sure if I can have the time.

And they don't, it doesn't have to be from a negative space either.

So first time I took a break, it was because of pain and I promised myself

I'll take a break in two years after that because it took me, takes some

time to implement the things that you connect to and learn during a break.

And then the second time, I didn't have a negative reason.

I was okay, but I knew there was gonna be magic in it and I took it.

And again, like so many good came to my life and I'm still implementing those.

It's been more than a year.

So yeah.

Just if they're curious about what happens.

Yeah.

If they pause, because for me, it, I didn't pause for 10 years

when I took my first post.

Like, I didn't pause on the, with the purpose of posing.

Hmm.

So if they're just curious about what happens, they

also, I think you should join.

Yeah.

I think there are people who are petrified of pausing because it means

they're not doing or producing or, uh, moving forward in inverted commas.

Uh, and I, you know, looking at the website a feel, there's a feeling

that I think people will tap into.

Uh, there's something about if you value play, if you are in that space

of just needing to relax, but at the same time, not a holiday where

you just veggie out and do nothing.

There's something here about tapping into, you want more from

your time away than just nothing.

Yeah.

But at the same time, you do need to spend time away and, and

also the beautiful pictures of the place that you have, well, I

said But also, I think it's not a yoga retreat, so you could go on

a yoga retreat and just take a break.

Mm-hmm.

This idea of, for me, the appeal of it is being around other

people who are creative leaders who have the same need and the

conversations that will spark from that.

Yeah.

And the connection that comes from that.

I think that's, I think your superpower is connecting those people to this,

um, because maybe they've just not given themselves permission before

to take this pause and this feels like a, there's a work reason to

do it, even though probably deep down it's a personal reason to do

it.

Yeah, exactly.

And, like the transformation or like, you know, change not only in

personal life, but also in work life.

So, I am designing for positive change.

Now I can see like how to learn things positively for myself

also and how to frame them.

So, you know, a creative leader or designer who wants to, you know, design

for a positive change but don't know how to, they can also find the answers

there just with the conversation, Stephen and connecting with each other.

Yeah, I think that's, uh, that's the, the important message I think

around this is for high performing, fast moving professionals and founders who

are now appreciating what's happening in their personal lives, impacts their

professional lives and vice versa, and needs to, need to find a way to create

a bit more ease, find the solutions that they need to find without forcing them.

It feels like that you are giving them a space to, to learn that practice and

yeah.

And tools to apply.

So like learning and exploring what that spaciousness is, and then

bringing that tool with the tools we use at the, uh, break to the, yeah.

Taking,

like you said, integrating, not just having a break and going

back to real life, but building habits that serve them beyond the trip.

Yeah.

Really appreciated.

Yeah.

You sharing your journey, uh, sharing these practices that you've, um.

Put together and this understanding that you've created and also sharing

what is possible for people, In such a beautiful location, uh,

and be held in a wonderful way.

And I would love to add that they're gonna be, I'm not

gonna be the only facilitator.

So there's another, uh, experienced designer ra, is

also coach on creativity.

There's gonna be a neuroscientist, John Al and an artist Nikes.

And the reason we are together is we all have been through such a life change,

took a pause and explore this direction.

So that's how we connected.

And we want to, you know, just like expand this connection.

that was in your, that was in your purpose playbook, wasn't it?

Playmates.

You now have Playmates.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

For those of you who are curious about what that means, we,

we have an exercise on the program where we like, um, Len's 10 pillars.

We help people define what is it that they want, what is it that's gonna

energize them and motivate them.

And so this is wonderful to hear that you are actually manifesting, uh,

what's motivating you, which is great.

there's something about patience.

I think.

Um, I think a lot of people might have an idea to do something or have

these, like light bulb moments go off for whatever reason, whether it's.

A situation you have with your health or you know, something happens to

pe to people, but I think people can get scared and then retreat.

Um, so it felt like you've given yourself a lot of time for these

things to integrate, both in terms of habits, but also in

terms of a bigger path for you.

I think that's a nice message to leave people with, is not to feel like that

everything needs to be done today or to give up too easily, and this idea

of resilience and how do we build resilience to, to stick out this.

I've, um, I really liked hearing about this, this blend

of analytical Pelin and this kind of more embodied, feeling

Pelin and how these are blending.

and I'm very, very attracted to your retreat.

It's,

yeah.

Come, so

Yeah.

I feel pulled.

Let's, yeah.

It would be amazing.

But it would be a nice, I was saying to Lawrence, like, great support.

I'd be very happy to share what I learned in a very nice, she's

been working on me, she's been

sending me fight details.

Don't worry.

I've been trying to do everything together.

I, I'm, I'm definitely

very attracted to

it.

Yeah.

This is when you try and like mentor people on how to do sales and then

they turn it back on you and you're like, wow, you're getting good at this.

For me, this is a very clear example, and this is something that

I, I, starting to understand more.

The right people don't need to be sold to.

When you present a very clear picture, a very clear vision of

what you want to do, what, what it feels like, what it's about, what

the values are, it's just awareness.

And the right people are sold as soon as they see it.

Uh, and it's then maybe the selling is just helping

them convince it's possible.

They want it, they need it, they just need permission to do it.