Ex-Tesla head Charlie and Sam from Spaera are developing a net zero emission solution for the shipping industry to accelerate the transition to sustainable shipping. They unpack the facts, stats and consequences from using fossil fuels in shipping. They explain what they're planning to do about it at Spaera. And they explain why unnecessarily long meetings qualify for the big bin of bullshit, a bugbear which Elon Musk himself does not tolerate!

BWB is powered by Oury Clark.

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Right.

Are we doing this de we?

Are you ready?

We rolling.

You got your big clock out.

I, my feet,

I said clock for those radio listeners at home is currently hoarding a very large clock.

Tick talk, not ding dong.

Right.

Let's do it.

So to clear my throat.

Uh, hello and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.

I am Andy Orian.

Alongside me is Emma Florentine Lee.

Hello, Emma.

Hi Andy.

Today we're joined by Charlie Spencer and Sam Bulmer from Spara.

Um, Charlie, Sam, how you doing?

Hi.

Doing well.

Doing well, thanks.

How are you?

I'm very good.

Very good.

Uh, Charlie is head of product and strategy, and Sam is head of finance at Spara, who's aims to develop a net zero solution for the shipping industry.

Now they're talking about finding ways to build these huge marine craft, uh, what do they call, cargo ships that basically power all the world, but as your discoverer, really an environmental disaster in international waters.

And here, they're here to save the day.

Their focus is on the efficiency and the use of available free energy and closed loop emission, free renewable fuel source.

Now, that's the more technical way of saying it.

So, Hence my, uh, rather, uh, opening intro.

So, um, let's get down to it, Charlie and Sam.

So we always like to start with, uh, a simple question, which is what, what's keeping you guys up at night?

I think for me, um, you know, the maritime industry is a law unto itself.

Uh, you know, they, uh, can base themselves wherever the politics and, uh, the business climate is most favorable to them.

So there really is no forcing function that is going to drive.

Positive change within that industry, which means that we, whatever solution come up with, um, has to be commercially competitive to be adopted.

And that means we're up against the fossil fuel industry, which as we all know, is heavily subsidized and incredibly well established.

I mean, uh, the light latest IMF report from uh, 20 Twentie says that, uh, fossil fuels are currently subsidized to the tune of 6 trillion, uh, globally.

Annually.

So competing against that, uh, in a free market is, is uh, is challenging to say the least On your website, you've got a rather lovely, um, pitcher and a pitcher speaks a thousand words of a sort of cargo ship with sales.

And you think back to this country, it's great history, maritime nation and you know, you, you don't have to go long back before it was absolutely net zero, it was sale power.

Yeah, absolutely.

And.

And can't we get back there?

There we absolutely can.

And that's one of the things that we're trying to do.

Um, there's misconception that, you know, wind power isn't sufficient to power, uh, ocean born transport, but it really can.

And that's one of the things we're trying to prove.

So for the industry's point of view, money rules, yes.

You've got a sort of toxic combination of.

No law regulation, right?

Is there any law and regulation?

Yeah, there is.

There's the i o but they're very slow acting.

I mean, they've set themselves the target of reducing emissions by 50% by 2050.

Um, and that's already been analyzed and, and shown that single-handedly can derail the Paris Accord if that's all they do.

Isn't that the, what everyone's aiming for, isn't it fifties much earlier, isn't it?

20, 20, 30?

I mean, 2030 they vary, but yeah.

Um, significant ratio and, and, and, and 50% of a lot is still a lot.

Right, and that's the problem.

The, the whole uh, industry is still growing, right?

So even if they put on a per ship basis, reduce their emissions by 50%, the overall emissions are still gonna climb because the industry's growing.

I think people would like to hear, give me, because you told me some, you know, about the oil they use, like give, give me a bit more, you know, give us a sense of how shit.

This is fine.

So this is the problem, right?

I mean, uh, they can kind of fly under the radar because they say, well, first of all, uh, ocean borne transport is the most efficient form of transport in a per ton, per mile, per CO2 emitted basis.

But the problem is that, you know, uh, ocean transport carries 90% of all traits.

So there's a huge amount of goods being transported, and the fuel they're using is the bunker crude.

It's the sludge that's left over when you refine gasoline, uh, and make, you know more, uh, uh, commonly known or.

Publicly visible products there, like we pump into our cars.

Um, and this stuff is filled with so many toxic chemicals.

It, it pumps out this stuff called black carbon, which is one of the most, uh, you know, cons, uh, cancer-causing substances known to man.

Um, they estimate that.

Pollution from shipping alone, uh, is responsible for up to 400,000 premature deaths per year.

Uh, 6.4 million cases of childhood asthma per year.

Um, and actually the UK is one of the fourth most affected countries in the world from shipping pollution in a per capita, uh, premature death basis.

So it is a huge problem.

It's only 3% of global CO2 emissions.

But if you look at the CO2 equivalent where they, they sort of look at the climate impact of the other gases emitted by shipping things like nitrous oxides, uh, uh, particulate matter, like black carbon sulfide, yeah.

Sulfur dioxides.

Uh, they, they equate to about double that impact in terms of global warming.

And that's just looking at the global warming aspect, not the health impacts from all of these chemicals being emitted.

What's the tipping point for you?

I mean, you are, you are working on technology to design a ship at the moment, fundamentally, or is it much more so?

Uh, we think that the first thing is to utilize as much free available energy on route as possible.

So that's wind assistance, right.

And if we can get the burden of the required onboard energy down enough, that frees us up to utilize much cleaner fuel sources.

Cuz that's the problem with a lot of these new fuels, like hydrogen and uh, uh, renewable eels, methanol, ammonia, is that they don't have the energy density of fossil fuels.

And so you need to have a lot more of them on the ship.

To make it across the ocean, which itself makes it less efficient, right?

So if you can get most of the energy you need from the wind on route, rather than cramming it all into the ship at the start, it lets you utilize these lower energy density fuels just as like sort of a backup basis.

Uh, and then that gives you your complete zero emission solution.

The does.

It wasn't the always the thing, it's why we have the slave trade.

Now, someone's gonna freak out when they hear that, but the, the, the ships couldn't get across the Atlantic, so they went south and then they had people, you know, don't, don't you, doesn't it change the rootings?

And so yeah, I mean that was, uh, that's where the term trade wins come from, right?

Is uh, basically ships had to follow the winds.

Thankfully, uh, aerodynamics and, and general, you know, our understanding of, uh, propelling vessels, uh, using the wind has improved since then.

And that's actually definitely one of our core competencies.

We're very lucky to have some guys on our uh, com in our company and actually our founder Rob, who led aerodynamic development at Tesla for about eight years, um,

who really understand the basic fundamentals and, and that's one of the technologies we're developing is something that will let you get more energy from the wind.

In more unfavorable wind angles so that it can, so you could kind of go where you want to go.

Right.

And you've also got a bit of power.

Absolutely.

Yes.

So you sort of, you can assist it and, and I'm sure it's computers and modeled and the computer can kind of say, okay, yeah, we'll take this much as it were and, and how you got, this is a huge problem to solve.

So, you know, how are you sort of.

You know, I don't even breaking into bits or, so we're relying heavily on virtual tools.

Obviously, we can't just go ahead and build a 200 million prototype ship.

Um, you know, uh, finding an investor that would just be happy to sign off on that is probably not gonna happen very quickly.

Um, so we're relying heavily on virtual tools, but what we're finding is that, Within maritime, the, uh, the available virtual tools that have been developed by industry, other industries are really underutilized.

Um, so we're, we're, we're quite confident that we can do a really good job with these virtual tools and show with high confidence that these solutions can work.

Uh, and, and, you know, uh, trial out things, uh, until we find that optimum solution in a very sort of low cost environment.

So this is a big problem.

Big problems.

You know, it's like, what is the rules of startup?

It's like there used to be a big problem, you know, what's the problem you're solving?

You know?

And then secondly, you need the sort of passion for it to do it, cuz as yeah, this is a long journey.

Well, that's the, the problem as well, the pressure we feel is that, yes, it's a long journey, but we really don't have a lot of time.

Enough time.

We, we have to fix this and we have to fix it quickly.

It's urgent.

Things are deteriorating rapidly.

I mean, we're, we're feeling it in this country.

We're feeling it around the globe.

Um, and we have to make rapid change.

And, and that's one thing the maritime industry has been very resistant to is rapid change.

So we have to very quickly iterate, show a solution who control the maritime industry, the sort of, is it, is it, is it, uh, what the i m O technically is?

No, I sort of meant.

In company terms, you know, who controls most of the vessels?

They've all got those famous logos on the map.

I mean, yeah, there's, there's big, big martial islands, for example, and, uh, like msc.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And there a lot of them are Dutch.

I would assume.

Danish is ma.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Any Brits?

I've got a British one.

I'm gonna now fly, fly the flag and burn it at the same time.

Not among them.

Not as many as you'd like.

No, no.

Certainly none of the, uh, all the big ones, no.

Uh, it's quite sad, really considering our heritage.

Um, but.

Well, yeah, maybe, maybe there's something, uh, fresh there.

Yeah, that's unusual.

But yeah, the Dutch seem to lock that down.

At the end of the day, we're an island, right?

So we don't have the port, you know, we bring everything to us, but it's all coming out.

If you think we'd have a bit more of a kind of input, isn't it?

Given we are an island nation.

Yeah.

But I think the con, the big land masses is where you get the big shipping.

We did at one point have a, a navy that was the envy of the world.

Right?

And an empire to match.

Uh, but, uh, yeah, I don't, no, that's another hole.

Okay.

Got a union jack d we should have a union jack for these moments that just, uh, just un unfolds.

From the wall.

It was just feet.

Great, wouldn't it?

You know?

And then, and God, God saved the king comes on for just a minute.

We'll stand up and then it ends really quickly.

That'll be wonderful.

But I mean, that's a, that's a big question and a big, uh, topic, I think in its own right is really, is, is what's kind of happening in the uk, right?

Uh, there's, uh, I think it's political instability that's sort of driving a lot of, uh, people away.

I think, you know, uh, from our history, Andy, uh, we've seen personally that, you know, technology is just, uh, or technology startups are, are looking for security.

They're looking for, uh, you know, a stable base of operation.

And just with everything that's been happening in the last few years in the uk it just hasn't presented itself as a, as an attractive target.

And, and that's one of the things we need to change to, to change that.

How's the shipping industry, um, rebounded since Covid?

Cause obviously all those ships are in the wrong place.

They've done pretty well, actually.

Uh, yeah, they're, they're going kind of from strength to strength.

You're seeing companies with Maersk with something like 8 billion of cash on hand and things like that.

So they're, they're, they're not suffering.

Is that where the investment would come in?

Potentially.

Uh, where we're right.

We're, we'll take it from wherever it comes because really where's who's kind of.

Pushing this, um, low emissions at sea, who's responsible for that?

That, that was kinda my first point right there.

There is no, there isn't anyone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's why I'm saying that we have to find a way to make the solution the most commercially viable.

If we provide an option full the shipping industry to adopt, then I think that, uh, puts us on a much better heading than just complaining about it.

So sounds like they've got the, uh, money in their back pocket to help you along the way.

At the moment, there are things being done.

So the, uh, the European Union is obviously trying to implement a carbon tax, but it just keeps getting pushed back and pushed back and pushed back.

And so it's just, it's difficult to count on things like that actually affecting change.

What, what do you need to help you do that?

I mean, if you had infinite money, but, you know, is that, is that, is that the reality or, well, no, I think, I think the solution is, is really rather simple.

If we hold companies to account for their negative environmental impacts, then the problem solvers itself, right?

If, if you consider all of the implicit and explicit subsidies award afforded to fossil fuels, um, green solutions are by far the more commercially viable.

Uh, it's just because we're competing against an industry that is so heavily subsidized and is not being held accountable for the damage they're causing.

I mean, the, there's different studies out there, but some estimate that the, uh, you know, the, the social cost of one ton of CO2 is something up, uh, in the regional of $2,000.

Um, and have seen different estimates.

Some as low as maybe 187, but it's significant, right?

I mean, and this is healthcare costs.

This is, uh, uh, flood damages, hurricanes, all of this stuff, and it's not being paid for.

If the companies are burning the fossil fuels had to pay for that, then they would suddenly go, oh, actually it's much cheaper to use hydrogen or, or to use cell power.

Uh, but we don't, we don't hold them accountable.

Think also what's happening, especially with the way the world's dividing at the moment with the sort of China, Russia and us is, is that it's gonna become more lawless.

Like, like the, the, it's so easy to break the law and just do what the hell you want.

I mean, look at the, oh, the great example of them, the, the ban on Russia and now, right, of course now they're trading.

It was flowing easily.

Lots of people were just like, oh, fucking, I'll take a few extra quid and bang it around the.

Side mate in some old do.

It all creates all this thing where the vehicles are dodgy, everything's dodgy, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh yeah.

They have this situation now where, you know, uh, tankers are, are swapping fuel in the middle of the Atlantic.

Yeah.

And, and, and drop in air.

Exactly.

And no one gives a shit, you know, and, and what, what, you know what I've draw back to the individual, you know, like these people are all desperate living in the short term.

Do you know what I mean?

It, it's sort of, if people are corrupted or desperate, then they.

Don't care.

They'll do anything, you know?

Absolutely.

But this is again, a case where I'm, I'm thinking, I, I don't understand it because energy independence, uh, frees you from all of that, right?

Uh, all this lawlessness, if you, if you have distributed cheap, available clean energy, Then, you know, these people lose their power.

Um, you know, countries like Russia won't have this strangle hole over Europe.

We would have independence from them and, uh, yeah, it's, it's a solution in its own right.

That's the, that's the principle that, um, if you want peace and the next sort of stage forward for society is, uh, free unlimitless energy, which we are scientifically, theoretically, if we all work together in the position to.

Basically produce?

Yeah, pretty much.

I mean, we're, we're, we're pretty close to there.

And, and I gotta say, actually England is doing a good, oh, sorry.

The UK is, is doing a, because of wind power.

Yeah.

We, I, I didn't even know the two largest offshore wind farms in the world are British.

Yeah, yeah.

Ones near London, you know.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

Um, March, I think something like 80% of the energy, uh, supplied to the grid was from renewable energy piss off.

That's a good stat.

It's gonna be that like, uh, catch 22.

It's like a miserable, windy, rainy day.

It's again, love.

But then they'll be like, good for the energy.

It's good for the garden and it's good for those little wind turbines, darling.

It's like fucking wind turbines.

And now a quick word from our sponsor, business Without Bullshit is brought to you by Ari Clark, straight Talking Financial and legal advice since 1935.

You can find us@ariclark.com.

Okay, so this is, you know, this is an important question for us.

It's is what do you think is bullshit in business?

I think really long in, uh, and formal meetings are, are real pain because what's long to you?

I dunno, like an hour.

Like, I don't think, um, I don't think you should ever have an hour long formal meeting because unless it's like a, literally a board meeting, you just need to get the, the vital points shared and then we can all get on with our day and get, get moving on the actual project.

I think it's very, um, to, to go through the rigor of, uh, this step, this step, this step.

Every, every meeting is, um, Often a waste of time.

This, this was a huge bugbear of, uh, Elon's, uh, at Tesla.

And, uh, he actually sent around an email basically saying like, if you do not feel like you're contributing to a meeting, walk out, you know, just, just get out of there and get on with your job.

Uh, he hated meetings.

Uh, I was actually shocked at how few meetings we got away with at Tesla, uh, because you basically, if you had a problem, you just went to the desk of the guy that you had the problem with, and, uh, you fixed it, right?

Uh, you don't give us a little more.

Sure.

Everyone fascinated, A little more insight.

Uh, you, you see it with.

Twitter and Elon, and, you know, he's clearly a pretty fair, fearless businessman.

He's like, right, we're gonna change the fucking world.

You're on board or not.

But give us a sense of what it was like to work there.

Like you're talking about known meetings or, I mean, it was terrifying in many respects.

Uh, um, the guy was very hands-on and had, uh, an excellent memory.

And you, you di you dealt with him on regular occasions.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, uh, he handled my, uh, actual memory of every little conversation going on.

Yep.

He actually handled my ex interview.

So, uh, yeah, that was, uh, quite a terrifying moment in it sound right.

But, um, no, he, he would on a weekly basis, sort of survey the troops as it were.

You know, he would actually come and sit behind your desk and sort of get hands on details.

Oh, price.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And he would remember better than you, what you said that week and, uh, also week prior and, and what you'd promised me.

Wow.

Very intelligent.

Um, and so, uh, yeah, it was, it was high pressure and literally it that.

The kind of the cadence that Tesla was, uh, was on, was on a weekly, sort of like, get everything ready for Elon on the Friday review.

Uh, and uh, you know, and he'd come and sit behind your desk for sitting with 20 minutes, however long it took.

And, and sometimes like you'd be working and, uh, you know, he wasn't even really announced that you'd just suddenly be there.

That's why he doesn't need meetings.

And this is one of those things, at the end of the day, you need one person to run the show because if he.

Is clever enough, a memory is based on how much you care about something.

So if you, you, we can all remember an incredible amount if we want to, if we care about it.

Yeah.

You know, you, you find yourself remembering anyway.

Um, but yeah, if he was clever enough to hold the picture in his head of what they were trying to achieve and everyone's particular, cuz they don't know where they're going, but everyone's particular position and all the negotiations are all along that line.

You don't need meetings because you have a true.

You can f it master.

Yeah.

But the, uh, the, the very sort of, um, fear inducing thing was that if he lost confidence in you, you were gone.

You know, there was no sort of like, wow.

Three month intervention period.

Meetings with HR or buck your ideas up, or we'll just put you on another idea.

No.

If he lost confidence in you, you were out.

I would recommend that policy to a business though unfortunately, you've gotta be pretty ruthless if you are a high performing business.

Sure, yeah.

Yeah.

And particularly when Tesla was just starting out in sort of, you know, the 2008 through to, uh, 2012, uh, which were really the hard years, um, I think

it was necessary for their survival that they were, that can't throw, but it did not make it very, a very pleasant working environment, that's for sure.

At what point did you join the company?

It, almost very early on.

I was there from 2010 and they were about, 500, uh, employees at that point.

And then I left in, uh, 2015 and they were at, I think about 18,000 at that point.

My gosh.

And what lessons did you learn working there that you think you'd bring into your business now?

I mean, I think it's, first of all, it's question everything, you know?

Um, make sure that you really understand the problem you're trying to tackle.

Um, and, and, Don't get caught up in the bullshit.

You know, don't have extensive meetings.

Focus on the problems you're trying to solve and, and the quickest way to solve them.

And don't be afraid to fail, but fail faster that you learn from your mistakes.

Manufacturing businesses, I think are the toughest business of alls.

The manufacturers just so incredibly difficult.

But, um, your objectives quite clear and the problems are probably quite clear.

I think the thing is with most businesses, they don't really know what.

They don't really know what they're doing, you know, as in like you don't know until you talk about it.

I mean, I think maybe the thing is our experience is a professional service business, which is an awful lot like that.

You've got a partnership, you've got lots of different, everyone's like a miniature business.

Yeah.

Basically with different, and I don't know, you know, we were require quite a lot of discussion.

I think with an engineering company you tend to have a start point and a known end point and you are trying to.

Build something or solve a problem.

And as you said, it's quite objective.

It is.

But there are a lot of problems that can develop along the way.

And the problem is, is that you don't know the problems until you build the thing.

And getting to the point where you can actually build the thing is a huge amount of, you know, very capital and time intensive work.

Uh, it's, it's, uh, it costs about their reckon a billion dollars to get a, a car into production.

Because you have to spend all this money on, on, you know, really, uh, high endurance tooling.

Um, so it's, it's high risk because you may make a very big mistake and not really find out about it until you've already paid for all this tooling and then you have to retool.

And that is exceptionally expensive.

You need the leadership though.

You need the Elon, someone who's coming along and talking to all the individuals Yeah.

And giving them permission.

Yeah.

Enabling it.

Exactly.

You need one person that's willing to go and put in the sweat equity to understand the problem from all the different stakeholders and then come up with a solution.

Yeah.

Well, um, we gotta change the world so people get on with changing the world and do less meetings.

So, uh, this is a five second rule.

All gonna keep it nice and short and punchy.

We got a, uh, double header here.

They went to school together.

I'm gonna find out all about them.

Um, this is where we're gonna say things.

We've got about five seconds to answer.

Deq, the music and uh, Emma, off you go.

What was your first job?

I was a dish pig at a wine bar in restaurant, ah, sorry.

Kitchen porter.

And I watched mini buses in the weekends.

Yeah.

What was your worst job?

Uh, silver service for the big conference, hotels around heat.

Yeah, I will win there.

And, and, uh, walking a dog for a 50 p a an hour, uh, was probably, it was a good job, but just, where was it?

Quite terrible.

Who the fuck did you, I thought you were gonna say 50 p a mile.

I was saving towards a mountain bike and, uh, I realized it was gonna cost me, uh, about, it's gonna take me about 70 years to save up for this mountain bike.

And so I quit after finding that out.

Very good.

Uh, favorite subject of school?

Design technology.

Me, me too.

Mm-hmm.

Why does people say drama design tech?

I didn't get to do any of that.

Did you?

Anyway?

Oh, sorry.

That was my one.

Was that your one?

It's all right.

I'll take your next one.

What's your special skill?

I think for me, uh, I, I hesitate to say this, but communicating, uh, highly technical manner in a way that's a bit more understandable, I say.

Good skill.

And for me it's, uh, I think I, I get a good sense of reading people's motivations and interests.

Yeah.

Think that's a good, oh, that's scary.

Can't do another one.

What do you want to be when you grew up?

I feel bad service now, but I want to be an architect.

And then you realize you wouldn't know how to build the actual building.

Actually, no.

It was ahea.

I, I found out you had to.

Study for seven years.

I was like, oh God, no.

Screw that.

Yeah.

It puts a lot of people.

Again, you've gotta wonder who these people are.

You know?

You gotta worry about them anyway.

Um, for me it was a pilot, like my grandpa or an inventor.

Ooh.

I wanted to be an inventor.

We need to talk about your granddad now.

He's clearly not done something, so, but we'll wait.

We'll come back to it.

Cool.

Uh, what did your parents want you to be?

They were pretty liberal.

They just wanted me to do whatever I wanted to do, but with passion.

Mm, same.

What's your go-to karaoke song?

Uh, take on Me by Aha.

No, it's strange.

It's one of my favorite songs of my son.

Son.

Listens to it constantly at the moment.

I have it on.

Uh, anyway, that was the, uh, joke by the way.

I would never try to sing that song.

Is it Hot?

Is it hard?

You know it.

Yeah.

Try to hit that note.

Oh my God, it's super high.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, I, and I desperately try and avoid it.

I think no person should have my singing voice inflicted on them.

So choose if you have to do a voodoo one.

I learnt this.

Choose tequila.

Yes, by the chance.

Great one.

Uh, office, dogs, business or bullshit business.

But they should be treated like employees, so the bad ones need to get fired.

It's a great way of putting it.

Is that what they did at, uh, Tesla or something?

Uh, no.

They, they pretty much let them run riot.

They were like taking bites out of the clay and just, you can't, you, you can't have the crazy dogs and then they come together.

What about you?

Um, I think for 95% of the time, it's a brilliant idea.

Because it brings out the humanity in people and, and especially in the office, in the workplace.

Um, but I was on train recently and um, I saw this lady absolutely horrified at this lovely Labrador, uh, just sort of pacing up and down the, the train.

And I just think for some people it really doesn't work.

Have you ever been fired?

Came very close, but, uh, yeah, Tesla.

Uh, but no, I think that's a story that, does Elon do it?

Yeah, we'll come back to that.

We've gotta talk lots about Tesla.

It won't mean what company.

And, and what, you know, what are what leaders too?

Um, what's your vice?

I mean, where do we, where do you start?

Uh, glass of red wine.

Uh, beer, uh, expensive kitchen gadgets.

Uh, commenting on articles online.

Oh, you do the thing?

Ah, yeah.

When you see somebody making some stupid argument, you're like, no, I'm not having that.

Yeah, there's good.

You know what I like?

There's trolls and then there's the good police out there.

My, my friend Doug's one of these, he's just like, he's the most intelligent, knowledgeable person and he has the time.

He was like, they don't understand that I have the time, information, and inclination to set this story.

So she just exhausts people, you know, just like I'm gonna make East.

So fair too.

Anyway, have you, you, uh, I, I'm a very simple person.

Lemon Sobe.

That's it.

That's a beautiful answer.

I, I actually believe that that might actually be his only vice.

We done it.

Oh, that's it.

Wish we go back to, uh, pilot granddad.

What's that?

All of that.

Uh, so my grandfather was a pilot for Bridgeways.

I think.

Uh, we used to fly the queen around.

Um, he was amazing.

Very senior and, uh, a lovely man.

So, uh, that was probably why I idealized, uh, his profession and him as Oppos, which is quite, it's that walking through the airport I could see you need a pilot.

Have a pilot, especially with the, the headphones I.

Thank you.

You need to be very calm.

You need the calm demeanor.

Mm-hmm.

I think me and Charlie.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's like the voice.

Yeah.

The confident voice.

Oh yeah.

I like the Australian, uh, the, the Australian pilots will be right.

Everybody.

We're all on board now, aren't we?

Oh, we're gonna be in for a tremendous fight tonight.

So, you know, you strapped yourselves in folks you feel really like, yeah, let's do this, man.

You know, England's like e weather is, uh, light port.

He just always tell you where the fucking weather is.

He's like, who cares where the weather is?

Like, I'm in a plane.

Just fucking shout up.

Is there anything you'd like to tell the listeners to check out?

I mean, obviously check out our website, spra.eco, um, and, uh, what's the name?

Why Spara?

So Spara is, uh, actually an Italian word.

Uh, we, we'd have an Italian on, uh, on, uh, Team, uh, that, that sort of brought it to our attention, but it, it, it signifies, you know, uh, a sphere

or a globe, which is, uh, important to what we're trying to get to, which is sort of, you know, a circular economy within shipping, uh, sustainability.

Uh, so Nice.

That's the whole idea behind it.

Nice.

Yeah.

We should spell that as well.

Um, oh yeah.

S P A A E E R R a.eco.

Oh yeah.

Lucky you've known each other a long time.

That was in uni.

So, um, so do you have it?

That was this week's episode of Business Without Bullshit.

Thank you very much to Sam, Charlie, Emma and Dee, our producer.

Um, till then it is chow.

There we go.

Terrible ending.