On this episode we explore the themes of work and rest, addressing the contemporary challenges faced by leaders in maintaining a balance between their professional obligations and personal rejuvenation. Join us as we engage in a thoughtful dialogue with Nathan LaGrange, illuminating the significance of intentional rest and the transformative power it holds for leaders in their demanding roles.

Back Channel with Foth explores the intricate dynamics between leadership and followership, particularly emphasizing the critical role followers play in supporting and caring for their leaders. Our esteemed guest, Dick Foth, offers profound insights into the necessity of establishing meaningful connections, underscoring that effective leading and following hinge upon active listening and genuine concern for one another's well-being. He articulates that the essence of following lies in understanding what truly matters to leaders, thereby fostering an environment of mutual respect and support.

Takeaways:

• The role of followers in supporting leaders encompasses understanding their concerns and priorities.
• Effective leadership requires good listening skills, both from leaders and their followers alike.
• Caring for leaders involves creating a space for open communication and emotional support.
• The distinction between vacation and rest highlights the importance of intentional downtime to recharge.
• Generational differences in work and rest reflect unique motivations and cultural influences shaping attitudes.
• Establishing a regular rhythm of rest and self-care is crucial for sustaining long-term productivity.

Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

So excited to be here with our friend of the podcast, Dick Foth, for another session of Back Channel with Foeth.

Dick, welcome back to the podcast.

My Joy.

Aaron.

Wonderful to be with you.

Dick.

I got a few questions for you before we jump into a conversation with Nathan LaGrange on work and rest.

Dick, the first question I have is, you spend time with leaders.

What is the role of the follower in caring for the leader?

You know, that's a really good question and a really broad question because it depends on what kind of, what kind of relationship one has to lead generally.

You know, if you're leading a large organization, there's a lot more distance, excuse me, between followers and leaders.

But so my, I think my question in response would be, do I get to spend any time with that leader?

Because caring suggests kind of an intimacy in the sense or a closeness.

Right.

And so that's my first question.

If I do get to spend time with him, what do I discover that the leader cares about most?

What is his or her emphasis in terms of what really fires their jets, as we say, or they have concerns for?

So I would, as a, as a starting place, I would say to that particular question that if leading is good listening, following is good listening.

That's good.

That when I'm with the leader and I listen to what is, as my friend now with the Lord, J. Robert Ashcroft used to say, what is cardiac to them?

What's central to them?

How can I help in some way in that regard?

Yeah, good word, good word.

And that idea, if you get to spend time with them, because sometimes our leaders, you're right, you don't necessarily have that opportunity.

So the second question they sit in, or what are some ways I can care for my leader?

Any other thoughts on that?

I just think that the, you know, we live in a world of statements depending on where we live or how much we're on social media or the Internet.

We are absolutely drowned in words.

We're not always drowned in questions.

I would say if I'm wanting to care for somebody, ask a question like, apart from fulfilling my role in the best way I can.

Right.

Which helps the mission, how can I best help in any way to lift your load?

How can I do that?

I have the privilege on occasion, and I probably mentioned this before, of speaking at college commencements every now and again.

And I say, I'm going to give you two gifts for your life, for relationships.

The one is, where is home for you originally or wherever you were born or brought up.

And the second one is, is there anything I can do for you?

And I think that question when it comes to helping those that are supervisors or leaders or bosses, whatever you want to call it, I think that's a decent and a good question, especially if I really mean it.

It's not just a.

Yeah, well, you're right.

If you meet it, that, that really helps that really.

Yeah.

Hard to fake that sincerity, you know.

True that Dick.

Always enjoy being with you on Back Channel with both.

We're going to go ahead and jump into our conversation with Nathan LaGrange on work and rest.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started.

So here we go.

Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

So excited to be here with a friend.

Nathan.

Nathan, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks Aaron.

Great to be here.

Nathan, you and I have had some opportunity to spend some time together in person a week or two ago and you and I before then have been kicking around this conversation that we're going to get to have today.

So I'm, I'm excited for it.

It's one that's been on my heart and mind and actually just had it a conversation this morning with someone else.

They were asking me about my job.

I said this is, this is one thing that I wrestle with and keeps me up at night.

So I'm, I'm looking for you to give me resolution on it.

So I'm excited about that.

So can you share a little bit about yourself before we jump into the questions?

Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Beautiful wife of almost 30 years, four kids, two adorable daughter in laws, two wonderful granddaughters.

I mean that's, that's my life right there.

But I love to say it's basically a life that's been the generous and graceful presence of God even when I didn't notice it came to faith in my early twenties.

Was basically your just typical college guy that was doing whatever you wanted to do.

Kind of worshiped at the altar of me.

And so please, if you're listening, share your faith with people.

Don't be obnoxious about it, but there are goofballs like me that are searching, that are hunting for significance and meaning and you have the bread of life.

So share it for the love of Christmas.

But yeah, got saved kind of darkness to light type moment and true story literally immediately after getting saved at a, at a heavy metal Christian concert, local band, nobody would know.

But I looked at my wife, lit up a cigarette and said here's the deal.

I ain't being no Pastor.

And she looked at me and said, you better be careful.

God's got a sense of humor.

I actually threw it explicit in there too, but we won't say that.

But yeah, the, that was the start of everything for me.

So, yeah, I ended up attending a great church and was just encouraged by some of the staff there to go back to, to Bible school.

And that was in the days of, of the old.

I think it was berean back then where you're pulling out Scantron sheets and sending them in and that kind of thing.

So yeah, I, I think that moment just developed a hunger in me for God's word that really hasn't gone away now that I'm, you know, past the, the half century mark.

But yeah, it's started in corporate world and doing things with doctors, helped them with their medical presentations, things like that.

Digital things were very new back then.

That's like Photoshop 1.0.

But got to see some amazing stuff and do some amazing work.

But just always felt this call and it just kept getting affirmed over and over.

And they invited me into the church.

They're like, it's the classic would you leave your job and take a substantial pay cut and do.

We don't know what we want you to do.

So we did anything, you know, mop floor, stack chairs, but ended up leading some young adults and so always have had a heart for the young adult ministry side.

Ended up doing some worship things with a very, a mutual friend of ours with, with my buddy Eric.

But yeah, just a great run.

And then ended up planting a church in, in a downtown context.

And that was great.

I mean it was a stretch all across, but I think that was all those moments of church life and ministry and preaching every Sunday, that kind of thing all led up to this moment of now being able to lead Oasis, REST International and care for pastors, missionaries, Christian leaders all over the world.

I've lived in those shoes.

I know what the pressure's like.

Sunday's always coming.

You've got congregation that's in need and you've got multiple things pulling you in a zillion direction.

So yeah, it's, it's nice to be able to go.

I remember that.

Yeah.

And be able to lead, you know, in this season.

So for sure.

So you mentioned, so you mentioned you, you, you, you mentioned Oasis.

So tell me about Oasis.

I got a few questions about that.

And specifically you highlight Rest.

Rest, but share a little bit about Oasis and then rest and some reason you've chosen kind of those to be the, the key, the key words.

Yeah, Oasis was started about 22 years ago.

It was a former navigator missionary on the field, working in Eastern Europe, you know, really difficult ground over in those spaces.

And just came home one day to his Oregon home and couldn't get out of the chair and just couldn't figure out what's wrong with him.

And I mean, he was just spent and so big, strong, Dutchman kind of guy.

He's like, hey, if this is happening to me, what about the other men and women that are out on the field?

You know, how can I help them with rhythms of rest and work and renewal and all that kind of stuff?

So he and his wife opened a space in Sun River, Oregon, and, you know, formed a board and formed, you know, all the, all the pieces and parts and logistics.

And his board really challenged him, like, is this a one off?

Is this just a space here?

And they started praying into that and immediately expanded into Slovakia.

So they went from being just one standalone to international quickly.

And what they looked at was just homes of hospitality and spiritual care.

Where can a Christian leader, you know, who, pastors, pastors who ministers to missionaries.

Where can a Christian leader peel off and just have three to seven days of attentive one on one or two on two if it's a couple?

You know, hospitality and the care component, like, how can we train people in, you know, maybe debrief or spiritual direction or biblical coaching so they can offer insights to those men and women that are there.

We like to say it's, it's space and face.

Space is good.

Like to get away and do your thing and be alone is wonderful.

Like, it's an awesome opportunity.

But we add the face component into it too.

You know, if, if 65% of pastors are experiencing loneliness and isolation, sticking you alone in the cabin in the woods may not be the healthiest thing for you.

Let's bring some people around you that can speak life to you, who can, who can create an environment for you.

And I think that's, you know, that's what's beautiful about us.

You know, you mentioned rest.

We have a program, a model.

It's really loose.

It keeps, it keeps us attentive.

So rest is retreat, encouragement, safety, transformation.

And we always ask our guests, which two of those do you need?

100% of guests say retreat.

That's a given.

The other one gives us a little bit of insight into where they are in the journey, like what season of life they're in right now.

So the retreat aspect, great.

You know, change of place, change of perspective, that kind of thing.

It's wonderful.

I think being out of your own environment, Jesus often withdrew to lonely places.

Well, these were places that he knew, but they were away from his normal, you know, activities.

But I think we looked at that and we were like, how do we, how do we help the, the face element?

I, I see so many leaders that just need encouragement.

Like sometimes it's encouragement to reconnect with God's word.

You know, not for your next sermon series or not for your missions newsletter, but like for yourself.

Like, when's the last time you read God's Word for you?

Like it is a letter to you or you know, culmination of letter.

So that, that encouragement piece is huge.

And then being able to have trained men and women on site to let you unpack your story over days, which is rare.

I mean, you and I are talking fast because we got an hour.

Like, it's like that's what we're used to doing, right?

Like, when's the last time you just were able to sit in an environment of hospitality and be able to share all of this stuff, you know, you and your spouse or, you know, however that works.

But yeah, and then the safety thing is obviously a big piece of this puzzle.

Being vulnerable, being as transparent as you want to be.

There's no prodding and poking.

It's just what do you want to share?

You're not going to do it with your board, you're not going to type it up in a newsletter.

You know, hey, we're having marital problems, send money.

It's like, where do you wrestle those things and where do you ask good questions?

And I think that's, you know, the biblical coaching approach is really a question based type of mentality.

So it's not us telling you what to do, it's us helping you discover what you probably already know but may have walked away from just due to the busyness or stress or whatever.

So yeah, the retreat, the encouragement, the safety and then the transformative side.

How can we help you develop a pathway of transformation that when you leave this place, because you're going to leave this place that you can then lean into and live into, that's actually going to glorify God and help you live this abundant life.

So yeah, that's kind of the premise.

You know, we served about 2,000 leaders last year.

We have about 20 plus locations around the world and that grows, you know, every month.

But these are all moments of deep transformation.

You know, I get all the guest surveys that come back and you just read them and you're like, wow, you know, a.

You know, we were ready to throw in the towel or, you know, our marriage was on the rocks or what.

You name the scenario and it's like, does that three to seven days change everything?

Well, it actually could going forward.

Like, if you continue to engage in these, in these types of things, that can change your life.

Like, we, we like to say rest changes everything.

It gives a. I think I told you before, like, there's always an arc.

You know that.

But about day four, you've stopped, you know, doing the sniff test, and you've.

You've started to relax, maybe you've gotten some good sleep.

And about day four, you.

You start sharing the real stuff, the stuff, you know, underneath the stuff.

And the tears come and some healing starts to take place.

You know, you've got trusted and trained people there that know how to listen.

I talk, they listen.

It's wonderful, wonderful combination.

But they know how to bind up wounds.

Yeah.

And once, once that begins to take place, it's like all of a sudden you start to dream again.

You start to.

To.

To enter into opportunities again.

You feel invigorated.

You know, it's the, the quickening of the Holy Spirit.

I mean, if you want to use those terms.

So, yeah, it's like you bring people in who are broken and, you know, dragging their leg behind them, and they leave.

They've got a limp, but they leave and they're ready to.

To engage back in whatever it was they were doing or sometimes even move into a new season.

Like, that's a catalytic moment.

So, yeah, I love it.

Yeah.

So you, you and I have been chatting about this idea of work and rest, you know, that maybe one generation would.

Would lean more towards a, you know, discussing a theology of work.

One generation might lean more stores, you know, discussing a theology of rest.

What are, what are some generational differences you've seen when it comes to work and rest?

And then I'm going to ask you about.

Because you've mentioned, as you and I have chatted, you kind of found yourself in the middle of kind of those two generations.

So first, what are some generational difference you're seeing?

And then, and then you share about the story of speaking in a men's.

A men's breakfast, I think, is to the point.

So, yeah, I, I think it's, you know, I, I love data and research.

It's.

It's kind of weird.

It's.

It's one of those hidden things, and I'm like, no, I like, like things that make sense, like, show me the science behind it.

Sure.

But I mean we're, we're in one of the first times in history where you have five distinct generations working together, you know, all the way from the, the traditionalists all the way down, you know, now into the Gen Z kind of kind of stuff.

And everybody brings a completely different approach to their work.

And I thought it was interesting.

Purdue University actually did a study on that, on the, the generations that are, that are in work.

And I thought what was fascinating about it, they reference a lot of the motivations.

So they've got, they have some different categories shaped by motivated by communication, style, worldview, et cetera.

And again, these are people across a continuum.

There's probably some believers thrown in here and some people that don't believe, whatever.

But the motivation side was interesting for me.

In the traditional, it was the respect, the recognition and the providing long term value to the company.

That was the, that was the driving motivation.

Again, this is a Purdue University study.

You can find it.

But you know, you start to pass through the generations, moving from traditionalists into the boomers.

Boomers motivated by company loyalty, teamwork, duty.

I mean, these are all admirable things.

Like, there's nothing wrong with that.

Like, that's good.

But now you start to hit a shift and it's, it's primarily in my generation and I think maybe yours too.

Yeah, Generation X.

Generation X.

Motivated by diversity, work, life balance.

Huh?

Like we haven't heard this term, you know, for like what, what in the world's going on?

You know, you move into the millennials responsibility, the quality of their manager, the unique work experiences, and now into diversity, personalization, individuality and creativity.

Oh my gosh, that's like a cesspool of madness.

Like you just dump all that into a pot and, and you're just going to have some varying degrees of what is the right approach to work and rest.

Yeah.

And I'm like, I look at this and I go, I think there's beauty in all of it and I think there's brokenness in all of it.

And think we've got to approach this with a lot of grace.

You know, as believers we're called to share that grace out there.

We need to do it with a lot of like, listening and understanding, which sometimes I'm like, would you just do what I just do what I said.

It's a totally different paradigm.

But when we realize what generations are motivated by different factors, I think that helps us even in our leadership to say, hey, I do hear both sides of this story.

And for us, as Jesus followers, Bible believers, holy spirit empowered, we've got to go back to the roots and go.

Work is a part of the original design.

Like it's there and so is rest.

Like it's all right there.

I mean, it's laid out in the first couple of chapters and you're like, okay.

And I think we've just drifted so far.

You know, you and I have said we're great pendulum swingers, you know, we've so far.

So, you know, I, I shared with you speaking to, speaking at a men's breakfast.

You know, I've got the whole room in front of me.

It's probably, I don't know, 50, 50 or so men, whatever, and they all self select, which is hysterical for me.

So on my left, I've got just these, you know, these elderly men, these seasoned guys.

I mean, literally veterans.

I mean, they have their hats on.

Like they're, they're.

To my left, on my far, all the young dads and their kids are running around like, you know, before we got into the meat of the meeting, you know, it's a breakfast kind of thing.

And in the middle were my guys, guys that were my age.

And I started off, you know, hey, what comes to mind when you think of the word retreat?

And the guys that were the veteran guys were closest to me.

They're like, we'll never surrender.

You know, no white flags, you know, keep pressing.

I mean, it was all resilient based, like, boom.

And then the guys way over on the right, they were like, oh, somewhere away from my kids, away from my phone.

It was all about peace and quiet.

And the guys in the middle were like, yeah, I see both.

Like, I get both.

I want to be admired for my resiliency.

And I believe that there's, you know, a push forward.

And then I look over here and go, yeah, but that quiet time sounds really good too.

Sure.

So I find myself in the middle of both.

And again, I don't, I don't think there's a, I don't think there's a right wrong to this.

How do we help and how do we as, as leaders in either member care, or as pastors, as missionaries, et cetera, how do we embody the way that God would have us to do it?

Because maybe we've maybe we've kind of leaned into the culture this way, or maybe we've leaned into the culture the other way.

How would God have us to do it?

What's it look like?

Yeah.

And so how do we, you know, and we did talk about the pendulum.

We go one way or the other, and it's easier to do that.

But the reality of it is, is probably Manning managing that tension of not going all the way towards rest and all the way towards work, but kind of managing that tension.

How.

How can we.

What are down.

What are the downsides of not managing the tension and swinging all the way to one side or swinging all the way to the other?

What are some downsides and any wisdom on how to navigate that tension?

Yeah, I. I don't know about wisdom, but I mean, I look at, you know, I look at my, my parents, my grandparents, hard workers.

I mean, that's how I would describe it.

And I think we would all look at those generations ago hard working.

Like, that would have been like, sure, describe yourself.

Hard working.

You know, I think sometimes I look at, at the generation now, and I'm not 100 sure I would use that particular phrase.

And it's like, all right, but maybe the generation now brings some qualities into work that were absent from the, the hard working gods over here.

Because I, I do think in that hard working scenario, there was a, sometimes a lack of intimacy with fathers and sons and mothers and daughters.

And, you know, the family dynamic was a little askew from the way that, you know, I think we could, we could live into it better.

I think over on, you know, the current model sometimes now is like, maybe it promotes a little bit of laziness.

You know, I think that's the, that's always the fear, right?

Oh, they're gonna, they're not gonna do anything.

But I think it's a much more push to say, is there something more valuable in life than just the 9 to 5?

Punch in, punch out, get your paycheck.

And I think this generation, and even ours and the ones in between, it's like, maybe there's something more here.

Maybe there's a quality of life that's different than just working all the time and not having any kind of meaningful relationships or not having even any hobbies or things that you enjoy that were outside of the workplace scope.

So, yeah, I think there's just.

I think I'm the kind of guy that's like, well, let's just learn from everybody.

Just tell me, what do you think?

You know, and then again, as believers, we got to take that back to scripture and go, what is.

What does this say?

Like, I know.

I know what the culture says.

What.

What do we say?

So when you talk about asking good questions and listening.

So let's.

For the example, the guys that were in that.

So we'll give.

On both.

Both sides and maybe even the middle, the guys that were saying, retreat, you know, no surrender, white flag.

What are some questions that you would enc.

People to ask of them to understand their idea of work?

And then I'm going to ask you about the people on the opposite extreme that are about rest.

What can we ask them to learn about how they see rest and that focus?

And then what are some questions we'd ask people in the middle?

Because I think that's some of the friction point, to be honest with you, Nathan, I think it's not that we don't want to learn, but we just don't.

You don't, like, know where to.

Where do you begin?

Like, where do you begin to ask?

And so maybe this will help take some of the friction points off of that and say, yeah, these are some questions I could ask if I'm from this generation.

I could ask the guys that said, no, you know, that had their veteran hats on, you know, that and vice versa.

So thoughts on that?

That group?

What were some questions that you would ask them?

I think it's always good, like, just hear their stories, because the stories reveal, you know, the stories are the motivating factor behind it.

Right.

Like, they're all shaped and honed by some kind of story.

And I think the men and women of previous generations were just so shaped by, you know, depressions and economic hardships, and they lacked any of the technological, you know, advances that we have right now.

I mean, they were the foundations for those things.

But I think it's always hearing the story, what drove you to do what you do?

And I know in my own personal story, you know, knowing the story, I actually knew a little bit about my great grandparents.

So we've got, you know, generations of all kinds of history back there that somebody has generously accumulated.

But it was all driven by.

By want.

It was all driven by lack and tragic stories of, you know, parents that die at an early age.

And, you know, my.

My grandfather lost his dad when my.

I think my grandpa was 16, and his dad passed away, which was a very typical, you know, the mortality rates were.

Were, you know, much lower back then.

So I, you know, I look.

I look at my grandpa, and at 16, he had six brothers.

He was now in charge at 16.

I mean, I have a 17 year old still at home and I'm like, I don't, I don't even get out of the house, let alone, you know, but, but I think a lot of their story was shaped by the necessity of stepping up and stepping into a responsibility that was just far different than what we know today.

And so they just kind of carried that mindset and that, you know, if it applied to business, my grandpa was a business leader as well.

And it just, it, it, it started to wrap itself into everything.

Everything was responsibility.

I have a responsibility to my family to provide to, you know, whatever the case might be.

So I, I think the stories are what really shape those men and women.

If we don't know them, then we'll have no idea what motivates them.

You know, we just look at them and go, all you do is work.

Well, there's probably a good reason behind it.

There's probably something that has shaped him, you know, some traumatic event or some, you know, cultural move that that's why they do what they do.

And so, yeah, I think that's always helpful to know.

You know, I look at those, those men there and I think they probably had, you know, some of that trauma, they probably had some, some corporate work experience.

But it's like if, if I knew them well enough, I would ask the follow up question.

So how did that impact your life and your family relationships?

And that's where things get quiet.

That's where it's just the weird balance.

So in that same room, if I'd have been like, how's your quality of life?

You know, your relationship with your, your wife or your kids or your grandkids, you know, they would get a little quiet and the guys over on the other side of the room would be like, that's all I'm focused on.

I just want to be the best husband.

I want to be a better dad, you know.

And you're like, all right, yeah, there's some.

Okay, yeah.

What's the story over there?

Well, my dad was always at work or my dad never came to my games.

And I, I, you know, I, I swore I would never be like that.

You know, I'll swing the, swing the pendulum this way.

I'll be at Johnny's every little game and be there for every little moment.

And it's like, okay.

I mean, I see it in the stories.

Like, I feel like that's, we've got to do a better job as, as people and just listening to stories because they shape everything.

Yeah.

And so would that be for the younger generation?

Maybe that would prioritize rest.

Would you at, would you want to listen to their stories too?

Are there anything specific you would ask?

I think what's, I think what's interesting, you know, when I look at my, and my grandparents and, and they were rural, you know, rural midw people, agricultural and then, and then moved into some business stuff.

But when they were done with business, they were done with business and they would just sit on their porch and they would just literally sit on their porch.

That's what they would do.

And so there was, there was a work paradigm of, of time and then there was a non work paradigm of time.

And you know, even for my grandpa, you know, there was no phones that were everywhere.

You know, right in the beginning there was no television.

So it's like there was a.

There was time off.

Yeah, that was, that was very understood.

You know, this back in the day when stores weren't even open on Sundays for crying out.

Like you could even do commerce, you know, based on, on the biblical principle.

People were trying to pull that forward into that moment.

Well, I think I look now at the younger generation and they are always on.

Like I think about your kids, you know, I've still got one at home.

My other three are older, but they carry in their pocket work and constant on and text threads and all of this bombardment of stuff.

So even if they're not doing something productive, they feel like they're in the constant fray of work of like oh my gosh, I have to keep up.

You know, it was interesting.

We, we had to, we, we took away my, my youngest daughter's smartphone, which was probably the smartest thing we ever did, replace it with a old school flip phone, track phone like to pin in the rear to you know, keep the minutes up and all that kind of stuff.

I cannot tell you from, from a parental standpoint.

I literally got a new kid, he got a new kid.

And within a very short time frame because that little phone that she's got to hit seven, you know, three times to get the letter on, it was like she eliminated all of these just myriad of text threads from different friends and groups and events and things she's involved in.

And like I got her brain back and all of a sudden some creativity started to flourish.

She started to read books.

Aaron.

I was like what is happening?

And it just, it made my wife and I realize she was being crushed under the constant need to feel like you've got to communicate or, you know, for a lot of the younger generation, the constant need to put something up on a social media platform or to stay in the mix.

And so again, it, it may be they're not doing something that you and I would consider, quote, unquote, productive, but they're just always busy.

They're always busy with this, this phone world and this whole technological world.

And they're like, it's the fomo, right?

It's the fear of missing out.

I can't miss out.

If I get behind, I'll never catch up.

And I feel that pressure.

So, you know, again, you and I, we live in the middle of that, right?

It's like I, I understand the things that have shaped me, that have given me a good work ethic.

I know the, the productivity and the fruit that can come from hard work.

And then I also feel like this need to be sucked into a social media platform that just never ends.

You know, it's a machine that, that never stops.

And it's like, wow, I've got, you know, I hear people, I've got to keep my algorithm up.

And you're like, what?

Really?

Like, that's, that's a pressure.

I mean, they feel that, gosh, if, if I don't post at least once a week, you know, the people will forget about me.

Well, maybe, maybe that's okay.

But, yeah, so I, I think, I think the, the men and women that are growing up in this generation have just been bombarded by constant noise so that that moment on the porch doesn't exist for them.

That phone in their pocket or, you know, with technological advances, that TVs out on the porch and they're watching, you know, it's like, when do you turn it all off?

And that's, that's where I feel like the generations, you know, behind me had an off switch sometimes.

And the generations that, you know, that myself and.

And the ones that are coming, you know, up, up, it's like, there's no off switch.

Yeah.

How do you turn it off?

Yeah.

And, and, you know, it's interesting.

So my dad was a railroader.

He worked, you know, he left every morning, 6:30, came home every day at 3:15.

You know, it was work.

I mean, that's later in my life.

He worked night shift for a while, but different shifts, but, you know, it was specific.

And then when I, I'll go and spend time with him, he's like, man, you work all the time.

Because if there is, there is no, it's not a 7 to 3, right?

It's and I, you know, I say, well, dad, you work with railroad cars.

I, you know, I get the opportunity to serve people.

And serving people, it's not, you know, it's not a seven to three and there's not a, there's not a shift replacement.

Right.

There's not somebody that follows me and says, hey, you know, I'm taking over from this point on.

And I think you're right, that, that hits on the, the reality of it.

And probably if there's not a intentional focus on rest, it just becomes all work and then you're exhausted and then you.

Well, again, it's like, it's like you and I probably define work, you know, differently than maybe even the generation behind us.

Like, we want to get some things done.

We have checklists, you know, we have all these, you know, entrepreneurial operating system platforms and all these kind of different ways of doing things.

And I do think that for, for your generation, your grandpa's generation, there was a, there was a definitive off switch and there wasn't really even the opportunity to re.

Engage.

Right.

I think with this generation coming up, we've got to, we've got to do a good job at helping them have an off switch.

I think that that's why Sabbath is a gift.

I think, you know, obviously in God's wisdom, he looks across, you know, generations, it's like, whatever.

And he's like, I know you people, you will work yourselves to death.

Sure.

And I think there's, you know, there's, there's continually a performance and productivity and affirmation.

I have never been affirmed by anyone for resting.

Well, true, I have been affirmed constantly for working myself to death.

Yeah.

So it's like, okay, so if, you know, I can lean into that and realize everything in me wants to be affirmed for work.

But God invites me into this gift of rest.

And typically, I know, I know most, most pastors, most pastors don't have a day of rest.

Like not in a legalistic way, but just a date where they turn it off, they silent.

You know, I always tell people, like, if you hold this button down long enough, it won't shut off.

It's amazing, but it's, I feel like we carry our work in our pocket now.

And so there's the constant, and I'll even use the word, the constant threat of continual work.

You know, when your dad was, was at home at five or six o' clock at night, it may be the railroad of calling back in, but probably not.

I mean, they had somebody else doing it right.

So for us.

And he could choose to go in or not, you know, they might come in, come into work and he could say, yeah, I want to do it or I don't want to do it.

But this day and age, it's.

You don't necessarily have that, have that option.

Yeah, it's a constant pressure and I think, you know, we've had so many talks with, with leaders and it's like there is still that Egyptian whip at our backs to make bricks without straw to produce, produce, produce, produce because if we don't, we're going to die.

And I think when, when God moved the children of Israel out, he was like, come and worship me.

That was the thing, right?

That was we're going to go out of here to go worship God, not to go make more things for God, but to go worship God.

And within that, you know, when they finally move into that, it's like now we're going to put some structures and parameters around this like how will you live?

I, I've been reading through Leviticus and numbers lately, like just invigorating reading.

But I was struck, I was struck today by, I mean the, the cloud.

Yeah, when the cloud lifts, we march.

Yeah.

If it stays, we stay.

And it literally has a line in there that's like if it's a month or a day or a year, you know, whatever, we stay.

And so there was a clear indicator of we're going to move on now in today's day and age, what's the clear indicator?

Yeah, you know, how do we know when to stop?

And if you don't self impose some of those rules in your own life, I think you're in trouble.

And again that's.

Ministries like ours exist because of things like that.

There is no off switch.

So we provide one.

And I think, you know, in this.

Season of life, you talk about different seasons of life.

My wife and I were empty nesters.

And so when your kids leave, not that your kids are an off switch, but they were something to say, hey, you need to stop working because you had other.

But when the kids, you know, our kids are boothed out of the house, you know, we could work from sun up to, you know, nine, ten o' clock because there's no, you know, there's.

The kids are, they have their own life and their own thing going on.

They don't necessarily.

So it's been a challenge in this season life of, of beginning empty nest where there's not those clearly defined.

Hey, kids need picked up.

Hey, they have A game.

They have these things because the other reality is they don't exist anymore.

And you can, you can just work, work, work.

You know, you mentioned the other needs.

You'Re meeting will never stop.

That's the, that's the harsh reality.

Right.

The things that you and I are engaged in will potentially never be solved this side of true.

Like, so it's like I got.

I have to stop it at some point.

Like, I have to, or it'll overwhelm me.

Yeah, I get the opportunity to serve missionaries.

And one of a friend and former leader said, you know what?

Missionaries are going to be there tomorrow morning and the next morning, and the next morning and the next morning they're going to be there.

And I had one of the leaders.

I'll call him by name because some of your listeners may know him, David Delp.

Years and years ago, when I was just spinning my wheels as a.

And you know, I was a new Christian and then catapulted into all kinds of stuff.

So, you know, probably, I don't know, seven years into this, I mean, we were just running around like, like our chicken chickens with our heads cut off.

I mean, because there was this both.

And again, I don't want to throw anything under the bus, but it was like it was imposed from the inside and then it was somewhat assumed from the outside that, you know, we were working ourselves to death for Jesus, which is just theologically ridiculous, but whatever.

And I still remember David Dell pulled me into his office.

And those of you, if you got listeners that know him, wonderful man.

I've told him this before and he just laughs.

But David is remarkably slow because he has deep things to say.

He's not like me who has to motor mouth to actually get to something that makes sense.

But David pulled me aside in a very, you know, full.

I won't even say full.

I say a very busy season, and was like, hey, I. I'd like to see you in my office.

And.

And David was, was the executive pastor at the time.

And.

And I was like, oh, great, you know, I've got 10 million things to do.

I don't want to sit in your office.

But he brought me in and he literally said, so, do you have a wife?

And he knew Full good and well, I had a wife.

It.

His.

His wife was my secretary.

So it was like, okay, you know, you know, our family.

He's like, do you have kids?

And I'm like, where are we going with this?

And he goes, and it was beautiful.

He said, why is it that when I come in, in the morning, your car is here, and when I leave at night, your car is still here.

And I said, well, David, you know, we have a million things going on.

And he was just so kind.

He's like, huh?

He said, nathan, how much time do you want to give the church?

And that's a great question.

That is a question no one up to that point had ever asked me before.

I mean, I was in corporate America and I defined times and, you know, you came in at odd hours if you needed to or whatever.

How much time do you want to give the church?

And like a moronic, naive, you know, person, I said, all of it, David.

I mean, Jesus has changed my life.

And I went off on something.

He just, he just waved me off with his hand.

He goes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

He had made for me, Aaron, the most beautiful gift that I, up to that point had ever received.

He had made a schedule for me and he had marked out days.

And he said, I know you're in a busy season and I deeply appreciate what you're doing, but if you're in here early in the morning, I want you to knock off in the afternoon.

If you're here late at night, I don't want to see your face until mid morning.

You don't need to do this.

I want to give you a sustainable ministry that will last you for years to come.

I don't want you to burn out.

And I'm telling you, man, that was wisdom.

Yeah.

And I, I think I broke down in tears because I was just, I was waiting for somebody almost in that authority world to give me permission to stop.

Yeah.

And I think sometimes that's what we need, just permission to stop.

We read the biblical sabbath.

We're not 100 sure if we can engage in that.

Yes, you can engage in that.

But on our work rhythm, it's like somebody give me permission to stop, to have a life beyond this.

And it was such a gift.

I'm so grateful.

No, it's a good word.

Got a few more questions for you.

One question is difference between vacation and rest.

And then how does someone, you know, I think we plan our vacations, but how does someone decide if they need rest?

So what, how would you just kind of maybe differentiate between vacation and rest?

And then how, how does someone decide that maybe they're, they're, they need a season of rest?

Yeah, I think vacation and rest in our family, we, we have two different things.

We say vacation and a trip.

Okay.

So if our family, if the Lagrange family is Going on a trip, that means we're going to go do stuff, we're going to see things, you know, we're going to check out old ruins, we're going to whatever that is.

That is a trip and that is our framework for our family if we're going on a true vacation.

Again, this is just us, but that typically means we're not going to do anything.

And that means we're not going to do anything that, that's straining or that requires extra travel.

Once we get to a place that, when we get to that place, we're going to be in that place.

And we, we love the beach and we've, we've been offered a very generous home on a, on an island that's for the last 20 years.

Aaron.

Wow.

And it is vacation for us.

We literally pack our chairs, drag them across the street because that's where the house is and sit on the beach for hours on end.

I read, I walk, I listen to music, I talk to my wife, I play with the kids.

It's just, we're just there.

I'm very present in that moment.

So again, for us, vacation and trips are two completely different things.

You know, we're gonna, we're gonna go to Asheville tomorrow for a work trip.

It's not a work vacation, it's a work trip.

Like it's, you're just on, you're gonna be doing stuff.

But I'll probably need something to help fuel the tank after that.

That's a little more vacation esque for me.

So I, you know, as far as the, the rest side, you know, when, when do you need it?

When do you don't?

I, I think building it into your life, I think you want to get to the place where you quote unquote, don't need it out of necessity.

I. E. Don't have a sending org that's going, bro, you need to, you need to check out for a while, you know, a board in your pastorate that's like, hey, wow.

Because I think for me, I know for me I get very short and very ungraceful and very quick tempered and all of those kinds of things.

When I feel stuff start to pile on me and it's like, you know what?

I've been drained pretty good.

There's classic little exercise you can do fills and drains.

It's like I have been drained well, but what have I done that's filled my tank at all?

You know, is that an, is that an hour of just sitting at my piano and playing or is that an hour of just listening to music, it feels so selfish.

And yet at the same time, we're okay to let everybody and everything just drain our energy and our resources away.

And I think, you know, as human beings, we have limits.

God is limitless.

We have limits.

And I.

Sometimes I need my wife to tell me what my limit is.

And she's a good gauge of like, hey, look.

And she's very graceful at doing it.

Like, she's.

She's learned.

She's.

She'll sometimes, Aaron, even look at me and be like, hey, I think you would benefit from a couple of days away.

It's such a gracious invitation.

I used to be like, I don't need any time away.

I've got stuff to do.

And she's like, you know, with that smile and that nod of like, yeah, buddy, like, you.

You would benefit.

And she's like, I'll take care of this.

And we try to extend that to each other.

Sure.

And it's like, you know, I think those that are closest to you probably are great markers if you have the inability to recognize that yourself.

Ask those that are closest to you if it's a spouse.

I mean, if you.

If you're on that level with your kids, you know, and they're maybe a little older or just some close colleagues, hey, how am I showing up here?

And, you know, be ready for some feedback.

Hey, you're showing up a little thin.

You know, hey, maybe you would benefit from whatever that is, you know, whatever it is that fills you.

Which is going to be different than what fills me.

But I've sat with so many leaders, and they can automatically list out those drains like it's a person or it's a situation or whatever it is.

And they could just.

But when I asked them, so what fills your heart?

It's blank stares.

And I'm like, no.

And I'm like.

And I've done this long enough where I'm like.

So I'll rephrase the question.

What do you enjoy doing?

And the sad thing is, is a lot of them don't know.

I don't know.

I love to preach.

And I'm like, yeah, that great.

That's awesome.

That is a pouring out.

Yeah.

What fills you up?

And sometimes it's the simplest things.

I like to walk in the woods.

Do you have a woods nearby?

Yeah, actually, we have one on our property.

When's the last time you walked it?

It's been months.

Like, oh, my gosh, it's sitting right outside your window, you know, we like to go to XYZ restaurant or we like to engage in xyz.

And sometimes it's very low cost and it's very low hanging fruit and they just don't do it because it feels selfish.

So it's like when I think about rest, you know, for pastors, for missionaries, for Christian leaders, I'm like, if you don't know it in yourself or it feels, you know, like that's selfish or worse.

That sounds so weak.

Which, that's another issue.

But ask some of your closest people, hey, what do you think would be the benefit if I peeled away for a few days?

You know, and maybe it's just space.

Maybe you have the opportunity to do that, that's great.

But maybe it's space and face in a location like ours or maybe some others, you know, that are around the world.

If, if somebody looks at you and goes, I think you would come back a different person.

That may be a cue.

That may be a really good cue because every time I've come back from one of those experiences, I've come back different.

Yeah.

Filled up.

Yeah.

So.

So somebody asked, hey, that question, how does someone respond in a kind way so it doesn't come off as criticism or come off as judgmental?

Does that make sense?

So somebody saying, hey, how do you think, you think I might need some rest?

Or what's it like to be on the other side of me?

Or whatever.

That question, how that comes out, how does that person respond in a way that it doesn't come off to fuel more of, hey, I need to work harder, drive harder, get ahead further.

Yeah.

Any, any ideas on that?

I think for me it's, I, I had a, a dear friend, Alan Fadling.

Alan and Jim Fadling have written some phenomenal books.

They run unhurried living so unhurried leader, unhurried life.

Alan likes to say that, that everything in the kingdom is invitation.

And I think if I, if I can pose that in my mind whenever I'm speaking to somebody and think, what would be the most palatable invitation that I could give?

Not a, not a condemnation.

That's very different.

What's the invitation?

What is it that I would be inviting that man or woman into?

That would resonate with their hearts.

And so I think I'm always trying to think invitational language.

Like, if I were to hand, you know, I've got a, like if I were to hand you this invitation, what would it say on it that would invite Aaron into a moment like that.

That.

What would.

What, what would the Language be.

And it's short, sweet.

But what would that invitational language sound like that would be resonating into that person's heart and, and typically you have to have some kind of relationship with that person to even know.

Yeah.

What would it look like?

You know, what about your wife and you just peeling off a couple days up in the mountains, you know, no phone.

Oh, that sounds incredible.

You know, okay, great.

Or, or down by the beach or you know, whatever it is.

And what would it look like maybe for you individually, what's a good.

I, I do think that we can sometimes focus on the episodic moment as a cure all.

And I think when I look at at most of the leaders, you know, your average leader is, is struggling to make this a part of their rhythm weekly.

So it's like I haven't sabbathed for three years and so I'm going to take this three to seven day thing and everything's going to be fine.

And it's like maybe there's some, there's some work we can do on the front end of establishing some better rhythms in your, in your work week.

Yeah.

And that can lead up to an episodic moment because you'll get a lot more out of that episodic moment if you've lived in some better rhythms already.

Yeah.

A lot of the people that come into our Oasis locations are sometimes very weary, very worn out, very exhausted.

Burnout is clinical.

Like there is a clinical side of burnout.

A lot of our people are brown out, you know, just before the toast gets burnt.

Sure.

If they don't, if they don't engage in something, something's going to, going to trigger.

But we often talk about what does it look like to downshift?

How do you downshift from where you are right now into an oasis moment?

Because if you're coming in hot, you're going to throw your engine.

You're actually statistically you're going to get sick.

That's what will happen.

I know a lot of people that go on vacation, you know, in their minds of a vacation, which is typically a trip, but they go on to something like that that's away from their environment.

They get sick.

They get sick those first two or three days.

Well, yeah, it's your body going, oh, hey, I guess we finally slowed down.

Thanks.

I'd like to talk to you about this.

Yeah.

And it's like you cough and you got a fever and whatever, but.

Yeah.

How do you downshift into that moment?

What's a responsible downshift?

I think observing the Sabbath, you know, don't get legalistic about it.

Eugene Peterson has some great writings on that.

The.

The Sabbath moment and what.

What fills your heart in that moment, what honors God and fills your heart.

But how do you downshift, maybe into an episodic moment because you'll be so much more present, you'll be so much more able to receive.

And I think the transformative opportunity and potential is so much higher when you downshift, for sure.

Nathan, it's been a joy.

It's a joy to be with you in person and on the podcast.

Will you pray for us today?

Absolutely.

Lord Jesus, thank you for your grace.

Thank you for the way that you extend continual invitations to just get away and rest for a while.

And thank you that you have given us meaningful and purposeful work as a way to both engage in the needs of this world and to honor you through our work.

So we thank you for both and we pray that we can step into these moments of rest and work with our eyes always fixed on you, knowing that we work with you and we rest with you and that in all of that we can glorify you to a world that just needs to see things done differently.

So I pray for those leaders that are out there today that may be in need of rest.

I pray they find the rest that they need for the life that they lead and that God, if they can engage in that in just a better rhythms weekly or maybe in an episodic moment, that you would make that very clear to them.

No guilt, no shame, no condemnation, just invitation into resting with you.

And I pray too, for Aaron and all the new responsibilities that he's had that he has.

I know you filled him with great wisdom.

I pray that you would continue to.

To just pour out the gifts of the Holy Spirit into his heart as he ministers to the men and women under his care.

In Jesus name we pray.

Amen.

Amen.

Sam.