Sean Malone: Co-Founder of FlowChat

Michael Whitehouse: 00:00:00

Welcome back to the guy who knows a guy podcast.

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We're so excited to be back with you.

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And this season we are counting

down to J V connect the first of its

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kind, December 12th to 14th, 2023.

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This is going to be an incredible

dedicated networking event, and you

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are going to want to be part of it.

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And this podcast here to help

prepare you to get the most

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out of this incredible event.

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I'm Michael Whitehouse,

the guy who knows a guy.

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And over the next few weeks, you're going

to get to hear from some of the best

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people in the industry about networking.

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As well as some solo training from me.

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So be sure to join us on December

12th to 14th for JB Connect.

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And now, let's get to the interview.

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Welcome back to the guy

who knows a guy podcast.

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The guy we are meeting today

is Sean Malone of flow chat.

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Sean is the CMO co founder of

flow chat and comes with over two

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decades of studying communication,

specifically sales and the lost art of.

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prospecting.

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He and his teams have successfully

grown more than a, more than a

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handful of seven figure businesses

and sold a few and have guided four

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organizations into the eight figures.

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He has personally closed over

130 million in his career.

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He stays relentlessly focused on

solving the revenue problem for

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business owners so they can experience

the growth and success they deserve.

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And he is a loving hubby, cat dad,

disc golfer, and sell by chat expert.

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So welcome to the show, Sean.

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Sean Malone: Hey, Michael.

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I just want to say, man, what you do,

what you stand for is true to my heart.

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And I think we hold some of

the same values very dearly.

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So I just appreciate what you do.

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And I'm really grateful and

honored to be here on your show.

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Michael Whitehouse: Great.

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Yes.

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So I'm excited to have you on here.

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As we were talking before we started

about flow chat, you know, as I've

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talked about in my, my blog and

emails and whatnot, I talked about

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the five corruptors of networking.

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And one of them is the automator

and the automator is wants to make

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things faster, more efficient and.

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If it makes things less human,

you know, oops, whatever.

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What do we need humans for anyway?

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And, you know, like, like the, the program

I encountered that scrapes the data out

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of a networking event and then encourages

you to basically pitch everyone who was

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there, which is the wrong way to do it.

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So I'd love to kick that off to tell us

why you're not one of the corruptors.

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Sean Malone: Well first and foremost it

comes down to values, you know, like,

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and, and I think what automation, what

AI, like, Regardless of all this like

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AI automation, very powerful tools

when used for good, never for evil.

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I'm a guy that's always

for good, never for evil.

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And so automation is the thing

that everybody's craving.

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Hey, I just want to press a

button, let it set up and run.

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And my business magically grows.

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Unfortunately, that's a myth

and a pipe dream that doesn't

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usually ever happen, right?

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Cause there's always additional work

that needs to go into that, whether it

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be optimized or anything else, whatever.

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So the idea of.

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Communication and the idea

of connection, connection.

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There's a study I just watched

diary of CEO, wonderful

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podcast, a video cast they have.

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There's a gentleman talking

about like human connection is

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the thing that's being lost.

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Human connection, real human,

authentic, genuine connection is

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the thing that's going to keep us

human and drive everything forward.

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And so when we take that out of any

marketing or selling process, and

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we just automate the whole thing,

it becomes mindless, robotic.

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unfriendly, doesn't feel good, ugly, icky,

all the words that you can think of that

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like kind of gets you into that boat.

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So when we created a the tool that

we created, it was designed from

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a sales brain mentality versus

a marketing brain mentality.

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Quick definitions there.

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So everyone's very

familiar and I love both.

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Okay.

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So, but marketing brain is the

guy that says, Hey, look at me.

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I'm doing this cool thing.

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Come this way.

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And they get somebody to open up

their eyes, the attention side

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and a little bit of exposure.

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And then once you go down the

pathway, if it turns into automation

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right after that, it feels terrible

as a prospect of somebody who's

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buying or investing into the thing.

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And so, so marketers are

great at getting attention.

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But in my opinion, they kind

of lack the follow through.

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And then the sales brain guy

where, where we came from, I've

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been in sales for 25 years.

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It's all I've ever done and

known is this idea of like, what

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does it take to close a deal?

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And let's start there and then reverse

engineer the whole conversation, make

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sure as authentic as possible and

try to template it, but we know it's

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going to be a little bit off script.

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It's not going to be exact, right?

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So if we knew that, and then we just have

in front, like the little marketing piece,

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now we have a complete system, right?

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And it's not automated because

the way that we configured

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the system that we built.

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Is within compliance of the 11 socials

that we play on, and it is a human to

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human system executed by clicking a button

actually sending a message instead of

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just hitting an automation button and

firing a bunch of messages of people.

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Yep.

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Michael Whitehouse: Yeah, and

that's a huge, huge difference.

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I think the one key difference too,

that I see is the way you talk about it.

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So that, that's what bothered me with

the, the, the one that inspired the

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automator as the corruptor is the

way they talked about it was, he said

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that this person found 400 prospects

in in these networking chat logs.

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I'm like, they're not prospects.

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It's a networking event.

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No one's a prospect, a networking event.

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That's not why they're there.

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No one goes networking out to buy

versus that you're, you're starting

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by saying, you know, this is about

connections, about facilitating

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communication, facilitating conversation.

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And the user.

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Is going to hear your use case and

then say, I want to do your use case.

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So if you're saying the use case

is 400 prospects, I would say,

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ah, prospects slam into the CRM,

send out some sales letters and.

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Bam.

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And even if that's not what

it's meant for, the marketing

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is telling them to do that.

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Whereas you're saying,

create conversations, create

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connections and, and, Well,

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Sean Malone: and I agree.

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I like, I'll just add to that.

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It's like people buy from people, right?

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Unless, and I guess it kind of

really depends on price point too.

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So depending on what you're

offering, lower ticket.

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Can usually have a little bit or more

automation and less personal touch.

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When you get to kind of like

the higher ticket stuff,

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people are buying for people.

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They don't buy from a paid ad.

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They don't buy from a website.

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They got to go talk to

somebody at some point.

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Right.

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And so here's where

the disconnect happens.

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If you set up all that automation

and it goes boom, boom, boom,

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boom, boom, calls got booked.

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And then you jump on the call and

you have no idea about this prospect.

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You don't understand what

they're going through.

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You haven't walked in their moccasins.

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You haven't understood their story.

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And they think they were talking to you.

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Right.

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That sales process from that initial

call to when the deal actually gets

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closed is going to be extended.

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And so by having a human to human

connection and really actually building

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know, like, and trust, nurture,

rapport, all the things that need

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to be in a selling process, right?

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This gives you that, that, that the

cohesive ability to just get on the

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phone and really truly have like a

level of rapport where you can ask

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deeper questions and you can get to the.

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Closed deal faster, right?

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Because everything in this world,

if you're trying to build a business

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is about sales velocity, you have to

have sales velocity, which is turnover

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and new sales coming into a business.

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But that sales process flow experience

that both parties go through you as the

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provider, them as the prospect or client,

or even a person you're just networking.

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To get, to figure out a need,

if there even is one, right?

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I love networking because it's

a very casual conversation.

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It doesn't have to be pushy.

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It shouldn't feel like you're pressured

or, Oh my gosh, Sean, what do I say?

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What, how do I start a network?

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Oh my gosh, I need to come over to you,

Michael, like teach me how to network.

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It's like, no, no, no, no, just go.

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What would you say to your buddy

playing around a disc golf?

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What would you say over

like, just connect?

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Like that, that piece.

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Is what I think is getting lost in

translation with all the rapid development

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and tech and AI and all this other

stuff, but there are some people that

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are kind of like the rock in the river

that are saying, no, no, no, this still

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needs to be part of the whole process.

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Yeah.

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So, yeah,

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Michael Whitehouse: I, I found this is

the more we talked about about flow chat.

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Yeah.

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Think about the way I use email.

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So, you know, when I started using emails,

I was networking with 20 people a week.

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So I was adding 80 people a

week to a month of my network.

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I couldn't follow up with 80 people.

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I can remember 80 people.

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But what I could do is create some

good, authentic, personal content.

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You know, not pitchy stuff, but sharing my

stories and lessons and stuff that I want

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to share with everyone I networked with.

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And then I just invited everyone

into my email community.

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They got that content.

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If something resonated with them,

they'd self identify and be like,

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Hey, Michael, let's talk again.

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And maybe I remember them in detail.

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Maybe I don't, but it's authentic

because they know it's an email list.

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So they, they don't

expect me to know them.

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They know this is a one way

communication, but it still

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kept us in touch and connected.

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And so, so Joe, I'm always looking for

ways to network personally, but then make

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up for the fact that my mind is a steel

sieve and everything falls out of it.

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And, and, you know, I, I'm not

the guy who's going to send

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thank you cards to everyone.

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I can't keep track of all that

stuff, but I really do want

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to provide value to people.

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I want to stay connected with them.

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So when I've got.

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3200 Facebook friends or whatever

it is you know, we were talking

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about this before that I'm

running JV connect coming up.

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It's a very affordable event and

no brainer event to buy a ticket.

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But if you don't know about it,

you're not going to buy a ticket.

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You're going to miss out.

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I can post on Facebook all day long.

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If the algorithm says you don't see

my posts, you don't see my posts.

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So how do I make sure

people don't miss out?

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And, and that's something and

actually that way we can talk a

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little bit about that use case of,

you know, as I was asking you, if.

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If I, you know, can I just use this

to keep track of who I messaged?

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You know, I, if I'm messaging a thousand

people, because I honestly think

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they're gonna benefit from this, I

can't remember who I messaged and I'm

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going back through and I click on it.

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Now I got a message there.

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I click on this.

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Now I've already gotta message

it, and so I'm missing everyone.

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And so that was kinda the first use case

I saw is this system can keep track of

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this person got a message, this person

didn't get a message, this person replied

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and make it a, you know, a useful platform

instead of just a darts at the wall.

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hoping some hit the board and, you

know, and not missing the people I

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need to miss or need to need to reach.

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So yeah, talk a little bit about how it.

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Sean Malone: I think I love that.

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And thank you for picking up on that.

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Cause that's, that's exactly

what it's for, right?

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Like, so, so, so the

software is called flow chat.

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You can go to flow chat.

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com, check it out.

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Right.

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So that's cool.

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But I didn't think that's where

this, we're going to talk about

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networking, this great flow chat

does four things really, really well.

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Number one, it allows you to

find those hyper targeted.

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Opportunities to connect

with people, right?

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Not just prospects, some

people call them prospects.

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Some people call them leads, right?

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I'll, I'll, I'll use the

term like Alex Ramos.

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He just put it in his new book,

a hundred million dollar leads.

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He says the difference between a lead

and an engaged lead is the engaged lead

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is the person kind of raising their

hand and swimming in your direction.

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Right?

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So typically people say,

I hate outbound, Sean.

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I just want to do inbound.

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Okay.

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Well, let's talk about the

definition of inbound outbound.

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And I'll get back to the flow chat

in the four things they do well.

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So, so, so inbound is created after

the creator does some piece of outbound

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something in your case, Michael, you're

putting a piece of content out on social.

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Somebody sees that and then

they come in your direction.

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How did that start?

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You put the piece of

content outbound first.

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So everything we're doing

is actually outbound.

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There's inbound is only creator

generated by an outbound action.

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And so that's, that's where content

now, most people are like, Oh,

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when they hear that definition,

like, okay, that makes sense.

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Well, how do I start a DM conversation?

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Is the next big thing?

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Like they get, Oh, like, what do I say?

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And that is the piece where most people

kind of get stuck because a lot of

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people have been teaching copywriting.

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Here's website copywriting.

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Here's email copywriting.

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Here's all this type of copyright.

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DM message.

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Copywriting is significantly

different than almost all types

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of copywriting that is out there.

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So you need a little bit of

knowledge in order to win.

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So here's a pro tip for anybody

that does not sound like that guy.

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That's exactly right.

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Yeah.

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So pro tip, if you are wanting to use DMS

for your business, to grow your business,

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to test ideas, to grow JV partnerships,

to get downloads on a podcast, YouTube,

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whatever, start with a compliment.

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Right.

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I've studied this in almost

400, 000 VM conversations.

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The one that gets the most

engagement is a compliment.

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So just give somebody a genuine

compliment on what they're trying

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to do or what they're doing from

the, based on their profile.

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Very, very easy way to do it.

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It's a very non nonchalant, just

casual way to get in conversation.

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Okay.

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Backing up to what is supposed to be

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Michael Whitehouse: a genuine compliment

because we all get the, I love what you're

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doing with your business and you can tell

that's cut and paste, it needs to be.

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You know, I love what you're

doing with your business.

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Your, your work with DMS is

a fascinating take on it.

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So that you actually think that,

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Sean Malone: or it's like, or I'd

come to your profile and it'd be

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like the spin that you're putting on

networking is truly inspirational.

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Michael, thank you for being

out in the world and doing that.

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You're going to be like, well, that's

a different type of compliment is right

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down your niche, right down your alley.

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And so it takes four seconds to

figure that out for somebody, right?

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Yep.

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And if you get hyper notched in your

business, and most people are in that

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bucket, like you can use a template and

just tweak it from a couple of words

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here and there to make it that way.

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Right.

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So it can be authentic and

you can run it at scale.

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So I'm sharing, I'm just shouting from the

mountaintops, like you can do it at scale.

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So cause that's what everybody wants.

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Right.

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So, okay.

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So Floatzad does four things really well.

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Number one, helps you to find

those hyper targeted leads.

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As an example, you could go to any post

you've made going outbound, and in one

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click, collect all the likes, collect

all the commenters from that post

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you've made, put them into this Kanban

pipeline type system that manages them

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along each stage of that conversation.

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Like, hey, did I send him a first message?

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Hey, did I ask him this question?

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Did I invite them to my call?

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Whatever the stages are that you want.

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So that's the first thing it does.

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It allows you to hyper target leads.

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Secondly it facilitates sending messages.

317

: 00:13:42

So we don't have any

automation in the system.

318

: 00:13:45

We do manually just set up a templated

conversation one sided, but then

319

: 00:13:49

it's just a simple click a button.

320

: 00:13:51

And it copies your clipboard, and

then you paste a message, and then you

321

: 00:13:54

move the card along in the process of

DMing of where you want them to be.

322

: 00:13:59

Okay, so it tracks everything.

323

: 00:14:00

That's the thing.

324

: 00:14:01

It also helps you to qualify.

325

: 00:14:03

So, finds the leads, facilitates

the message, Qualitate, I guess

326

: 00:14:07

qualifying should come before

facilitating messages in, in theory.

327

: 00:14:10

But we have a step by step process

that you can follow to take it from

328

: 00:14:14

like suspect to qualified opportunity.

329

: 00:14:19

And then we'll facilitate message sending.

330

: 00:14:21

And then the last thing it does

really well is reporting on metrics.

331

: 00:14:24

Those are the four things that,

that our software does well.

332

: 00:14:27

Yep.

333

: 00:14:27

Michael Whitehouse: Yeah, so, so I

like that it's, it's so, so human.

334

: 00:14:31

And it's not just automating,

blasting stuff out.

335

: 00:14:33

Now, obviously you, you could

use it with an assistant.

336

: 00:14:36

You could use it with a team and

whatnot, but it can also facilitate

337

: 00:14:39

using it for yourself to just make

sure you're reaching the right people.

338

: 00:14:43

And you don't miss their, their message

back and, and all that kind of stuff.

339

: 00:14:46

No, could this be used if someone

now, obviously if somebody

340

: 00:14:50

says, how should I network?

341

: 00:14:51

I would say, well, I recommend

coming to JV connect.

342

: 00:14:53

You'll meet a bunch of people, but if

somebody wanted network by say, going

343

: 00:14:55

on LinkedIn or they're not working for

a job, let's say Which they probably

344

: 00:14:59

didn't slow chat for that, but let's

say they were or they're they're

345

: 00:15:01

trying to to break into an industry.

346

: 00:15:04

Could this be used instead of for a sales

process for a networking network building

347

: 00:15:09

Sean Malone: process?

348

: 00:15:10

Yeah, absolutely.

349

: 00:15:11

I think a couple of great

examples are recruiting, right?

350

: 00:15:14

So like if you're a recruiter, that's

another really great use cases.

351

: 00:15:18

Let's say you're a recruiter

for a fast food restaurant.

352

: 00:15:19

I just did a presentation to 7,

000 restaurants about this topic.

353

: 00:15:23

And it's, it's how do you use tech

to actually recruit in a way that's

354

: 00:15:27

systematic and automatic and not have

to pay like one of those recruiting

355

: 00:15:30

agencies, millions of dollars when you

get some high ticket person that you hire.

356

: 00:15:34

So same thing, right?

357

: 00:15:35

So you just set up the messaging outbound

on, and it's a different experience.

358

: 00:15:38

If you're recruiting, how do

you usually get recruited?

359

: 00:15:40

You go to zip recruiter,

you go to ladders.

360

: 00:15:43

com or whatever, and you look, and then

you, you apply because you want the job.

361

: 00:15:47

And then it's like that

stuffy bad process.

362

: 00:15:50

But what if.

363

: 00:15:51

On the flip side, that same

experience could be Michael, man,

364

: 00:15:54

you're a, you're a networking pro.

365

: 00:15:56

Our business right now is struggling

in the HR world and we need somebody

366

: 00:16:00

to come and help with networking.

367

: 00:16:01

Would you be up for a quick 15

minute call just to see if your

368

: 00:16:05

skillset fits what we're looking for?

369

: 00:16:07

And all of a sudden now Michael's

like, Whoa, that's right up my alley.

370

: 00:16:11

You know, like, and of course

you're going to jump on that call.

371

: 00:16:13

So you're going to get a higher

probability of calls booked

372

: 00:16:15

or applications filled out.

373

: 00:16:17

You need to jump on the call 15 minutes.

374

: 00:16:18

We do have a, you know, like a.

375

: 00:16:20

We make sure that our values are

aligned and then, okay, great.

376

: 00:16:23

Hey, next step is to fill

out this application.

377

: 00:16:25

Could you do that?

378

: 00:16:25

Here's the link.

379

: 00:16:26

And I do it on a zoom call.

380

: 00:16:27

Now it's a personal conversation

for me to recruit Michael into

381

: 00:16:30

my company as a recruiter, right?

382

: 00:16:32

So that's, that's just a kind of like

a use case that it could be used for.

383

: 00:16:35

If you're looking for jobs, same thing.

384

: 00:16:37

You can go to LinkedIn.

385

: 00:16:38

Again, our platform works

on 13 pro platforms.

386

: 00:16:41

Doesn't matter where you're at.

387

: 00:16:42

LinkedIn say you have sales navigator.

388

: 00:16:44

You could pop open your navigator

and run a filter to say, I want all

389

: 00:16:49

hiring managers at this type of niche.

390

: 00:16:51

It'll pull you a list.

391

: 00:16:52

You can click one thing, put that whole

list right into a pipeline and be like,

392

: 00:16:56

I'm interested in your be interested.

393

: 00:16:58

Obviously I'm interested in

learning more about your company.

394

: 00:17:00

I'm thinking about

applying at a job there.

395

: 00:17:02

Can you talk to me?

396

: 00:17:03

And you're reaching out now to

that person that those are the,

397

: 00:17:07

that's who hires you, right?

398

: 00:17:09

Employers are always looking

for those people that are like.

399

: 00:17:13

Putting activity in

and showing the energy.

400

: 00:17:15

It's like, show me, don't

tell me kind of a thing.

401

: 00:17:17

That's where I feel like

Flowchat could just be superior.

402

: 00:17:21

Michael Whitehouse: I think what's

so powerful about that, too, is that

403

: 00:17:23

you can be more personal because

the technology gets out of the way

404

: 00:17:29

or get the work out of the way.

405

: 00:17:30

So a lot of recruiters there.

406

: 00:17:32

Yeah, it's

407

: 00:17:32

Sean Malone: like putting the

power of less clicks at your

408

: 00:17:35

fingertips, putting the power of

AI assistance generated assistance

409

: 00:17:40

with messaging at your fingertips.

410

: 00:17:42

But don't do it for you, right?

411

: 00:17:43

Like that's the idea.

412

: 00:17:44

Well, you

413

: 00:17:44

Michael Whitehouse: know, I

get those messages sometimes.

414

: 00:17:47

I got a message on LinkedIn the other day

and it said you know, I love your profile.

415

: 00:17:50

And are you open to a,

to a new opportunity?

416

: 00:17:53

And basically you want a job.

417

: 00:17:55

And, and my reply was, you

obviously did not look at my profile

418

: 00:17:58

because nothing about my profile

lines with what you just said.

419

: 00:18:01

But if you don't have proper automation,

then you use blunt automation and you

420

: 00:18:07

hire a VA in the Philippines to just.

421

: 00:18:10

You know, here's the specs,

blast them all with this message

422

: 00:18:13

and it's, it's brute force.

423

: 00:18:15

It's, you know, send out 10, 000 and hope

10 reply and, and that's how it works.

424

: 00:18:20

Versus if you have the right

technology, you don't need to

425

: 00:18:22

hire the VA in the Philippines.

426

: 00:18:23

You can do it yourself

because it's just click.

427

: 00:18:26

I'm looking at the next person.

428

: 00:18:27

Yeah.

429

: 00:18:28

All right.

430

: 00:18:28

Is this the right person?

431

: 00:18:29

Yes, they are.

432

: 00:18:29

Let me tweak this message.

433

: 00:18:30

So it's personal.

434

: 00:18:31

Them send click and

look at the next person.

435

: 00:18:34

So you, the computer becomes

your assistant and it's actually.

436

: 00:18:38

You could that's the other thing I've

found is there's nothing more awkward

437

: 00:18:42

than messaging someone and getting and

reaching their VA on LinkedIn, but their

438

: 00:18:46

VA doesn't know you're a friend of theirs.

439

: 00:18:49

So they talk to you like the recruiter

and you know, and I've, I've had like,

440

: 00:18:55

could I speak to the real Lois, please?

441

: 00:18:57

It's, it's like, you know, you know,

talking to Sybil that, you know, the

442

: 00:18:59

multiple personality or like, okay,

which Sybil am I talking to now?

443

: 00:19:03

Yeah.

444

: 00:19:03

Yeah.

445

: 00:19:04

Is this, is this the real Sybil?

446

: 00:19:06

Or is this Juan?

447

: 00:19:08

So, so like, so it's interesting

because the technology allows

448

: 00:19:12

you to be used correctly.

449

: 00:19:14

I mean, obviously you could use this wrong

and, and hire a bunch of people in the

450

: 00:19:17

Philippines and blast out a bunch of spam.

451

: 00:19:19

But used correctly, it allows you to

be more personally engaged because

452

: 00:19:25

you don't need to be spending all

the time searching through lists and

453

: 00:19:31

prospecting and And, and digging so you

can spend more time sending messages

454

: 00:19:35

and replying to messages and having

conversations and engaging, which seems

455

: 00:19:39

Sean Malone: huge.

456

: 00:19:40

Yeah, I 100 percent agree.

457

: 00:19:42

You're absolutely right.

458

: 00:19:43

And even just to add to that, if

you guys know who David Ogilvie

459

: 00:19:46

is, he's one of the greatest.

460

: 00:19:47

He's like one of the founding

forefathers of copywriting, right?

461

: 00:19:51

And what he says is 80 percent

of your first dollar spent in

462

: 00:19:55

marketing is blown on your headline.

463

: 00:19:58

So if we translate, like translate

that into like the DM environment

464

: 00:20:02

and messaging somebody outbound for

the first message, we got to spend 80

465

: 00:20:06

percent of our time making sure that

first message hits, we got to spend.

466

: 00:20:09

And 80 percent of our time staying

focused on making sure the first

467

: 00:20:12

message is a genuine, authentic, and

real, and in the right lane, hitting

468

: 00:20:17

the niche, saying the right thing.

469

: 00:20:19

Because when you do that correctly,

right people, right message, big results.

470

: 00:20:24

That's it.

471

: 00:20:24

There's no other formula.

472

: 00:20:26

Michael Whitehouse: Well, and this also,

you know, one of the things I talk about

473

: 00:20:28

is, is this ninja networking rubric.

474

: 00:20:31

And there's five levels networking.

475

: 00:20:32

The first level is network prospecting,

which is what you're talking about.

476

: 00:20:34

It's that authentic conversation.

477

: 00:20:36

Looking for a problem someone has

and if it's solved by your service,

478

: 00:20:41

gently asking for permission

to discuss your, your offer.

479

: 00:20:44

And because, you know, who's not

going to respond well to the, to the

480

: 00:20:48

question, would you like help with that?

481

: 00:20:50

And, and, and this, this does sort of

that, that same thing that it's about.

482

: 00:20:55

I actually, it's interesting because,

you know, we're, we're a Washington

483

: 00:20:59

spam and all your email spam and

DM spam and, and just meaningless

484

: 00:21:04

messages that don't apply to us at all.

485

: 00:21:05

We get them like, why

am I even getting this?

486

: 00:21:07

You know, I got a message being like,

I, you know, I, I help women in their

487

: 00:21:11

fifties to find more film into work.

488

: 00:21:13

And I'm like, good for you.

489

: 00:21:15

I haven't got anything that misaligned,

but almost so, but if people had

490

: 00:21:20

the right tools, they could, and of

course they, they do that because

491

: 00:21:24

they don't know any better way.

492

: 00:21:25

So they send out, they shotgun it,

but with tools like yours, it lets

493

: 00:21:30

them be more authentic and lets

them be, and actually reminded.

494

: 00:21:32

But when I first got into coaching

in: 2020

495

: 00:21:36

was a sell by chat strategy.

496

: 00:21:37

Yep.

497

: 00:21:38

But without any tools,

it was I'd make posts.

498

: 00:21:40

I'd respond to the comments.

499

: 00:21:42

And, and I, I learned one

of talking more strategies.

500

: 00:21:45

I

501

: 00:21:45

Sean Malone: love talking.

502

: 00:21:46

Yeah.

503

: 00:21:46

Dear friend and his wife, Kiri Marie.

504

: 00:21:48

I've been on there.

505

: 00:21:49

I was on their leadership

council for a while.

506

: 00:21:50

Yeah.

507

: 00:21:52

Michael Whitehouse: And so that's

actually what, what gave me enough

508

: 00:21:54

confidence to say, I think I should

go into the coaching industry.

509

: 00:21:56

I did not actually have the chops to

deliver the coaching I was selling

510

: 00:21:59

with this very powerful tool.

511

: 00:22:01

And so I ended up stopping, stopping

using it, but yeah, I made 10.

512

: 00:22:05

Sean Malone: What year was

that when you were doing that?

513

: 00:22:07

2020.

514

: 00:22:08

120.

515

: 00:22:08

Okay.

516

: 00:22:09

Three years ago.

517

: 00:22:09

Yeah.

518

: 00:22:10

Right at the

519

: 00:22:10

Michael Whitehouse: start of the pandemic.

520

: 00:22:11

And, and since then I have, you know,

become certified and interviewed

521

: 00:22:14

200 people and learned a few

things a few things over that time.

522

: 00:22:18

But, but yeah, I think about

the strategy was so powerful

523

: 00:22:22

because it was so authentic.

524

: 00:22:23

It was basically asking people questions

about what are you trying to do?

525

: 00:22:28

Where are you now?

526

: 00:22:29

Where are you stuck?

527

: 00:22:30

Where do you want to be?

528

: 00:22:31

Would you like help with that?

529

: 00:22:33

And they were like, yeah, what's next?

530

: 00:22:34

And they just walked

down the path with me.

531

: 00:22:37

And I'm thinking about what I was

doing then, if that was augmented by

532

: 00:22:40

a technology that would keep track of

it, you know, I was using a spreadsheet

533

: 00:22:43

and, and, you know, last date, and

it wasn't, I was a small scale.

534

: 00:22:48

I I'd get, you know, four

comments when I made a post.

535

: 00:22:51

So it wasn't massive, but if I, you

know, technology support and I could

536

: 00:22:56

see this being really game changing.

537

: 00:22:57

There's so many people out there.

538

: 00:22:59

They don't want to be cold DMing.

539

: 00:23:01

They don't want to be pitching.

540

: 00:23:03

They, they want to help.

541

: 00:23:04

They have something that actually

helps people, but they need a

542

: 00:23:06

way to identify who has the need,

who's going to raise their hand,

543

: 00:23:11

and then how do I draw them in?

544

: 00:23:15

And, and so many people, especially people

in the helping people space, you know,

545

: 00:23:19

the holistic space, the mindset space,

the spiritual space, they don't want to,

546

: 00:23:23

their sales strategy is one that grabs

one by the head and, oh man, they want to.

547

: 00:23:29

And it seems like this could, this could

really help them to, to be more authentic

548

: 00:23:33

Sean Malone: like that.

549

: 00:23:34

Yeah.

550

: 00:23:34

So I, and I just, I always think

through the lens of like DM

551

: 00:23:38

copy, cause that's what I've been

specializing in for a long time.

552

: 00:23:41

And it's so you know, like a first

message for somebody in that space.

553

: 00:23:44

If you're listening right now, this might

be a good one is like, Hey Michael, or

554

: 00:23:48

I wouldn't even pro tip, never start

your first DM with someone's Hey name.

555

: 00:23:53

Because that's what everybody does.

556

: 00:23:54

You always want to be different.

557

: 00:23:55

So put that person's name at the end

of the first sentence after a comma.

558

: 00:23:59

That's the pro tip of the world, right?

559

: 00:24:02

So, so I would come up to, you know, say,

Michael, you're in the mindset space.

560

: 00:24:05

One of the first messages I

might send in that case is, Looks

561

: 00:24:09

like our energy aligns, Michael.

562

: 00:24:11

I'm curious how do you, how do

you, what's your morning routine?

563

: 00:24:15

Simple question, right?

564

: 00:24:16

Compliment.

565

: 00:24:17

Simple question.

566

: 00:24:18

That's an easy way to get into

a great conversation about some,

567

: 00:24:21

Oh, why'd you choose that one?

568

: 00:24:22

Who do you follow?

569

: 00:24:23

Like what, all these things.

570

: 00:24:24

And then we start transitioning.

571

: 00:24:25

So like there's four hinge points in

every DM conversation, and I don't

572

: 00:24:29

care if it's for networking, if it's

for sales, it's for whatever, right.

573

: 00:24:32

And the four hinge points

really start with the first

574

: 00:24:35

thing is getting engagement.

575

: 00:24:36

Right.

576

: 00:24:37

Do not try to sell from

your first message.

577

: 00:24:39

Everybody tries to do

that and they do it wrong.

578

: 00:24:41

Those are the spammy, salesy,

the ones that feel like shit

579

: 00:24:45

that you don't want to get.

580

: 00:24:46

The ones I get a million times a day.

581

: 00:24:47

The ones you get a million times a day.

582

: 00:24:49

You know, instantly like,

nope, block that guy.

583

: 00:24:51

Get him out of here.

584

: 00:24:52

But right.

585

: 00:24:53

So the first thing is we always

say focus on is getting engagement.

586

: 00:24:56

The second thing we need to do is

have a series of one, two, maybe

587

: 00:24:59

three questions that transitions

them from that engagement.

588

: 00:25:03

Into what I call opening the windows.

589

: 00:25:05

So you can invite them permission

based to the next step.

590

: 00:25:09

So it goes and get engagement

and it goes transition.

591

: 00:25:11

So some of the questions we use in

our world, a little bit different than

592

: 00:25:14

probably what you're in, but it's like.

593

: 00:25:16

What's the biggest marketing challenge

you're working on conquering right now?

594

: 00:25:19

Question one, they say this great.

595

: 00:25:22

What have you tried to do to

solve that second question?

596

: 00:25:26

Third, what would it mean for

you to solve this forever?

597

: 00:25:29

How much does it cost you

to not solve this problem?

598

: 00:25:31

Those are great, easy questions that

you can ask, because then that'll just

599

: 00:25:34

completely wrench that conversation from.

600

: 00:25:37

Initial message transition into, oh my

gosh, you should, you should see our tech.

601

: 00:25:42

Here's that window open invite.

602

: 00:25:43

And my invite, is it cool if I send you

a quick video or are you, is it, would

603

: 00:25:46

it be better to just hop on a call?

604

: 00:25:48

I mean, it's very casual, great way

to go to a, sending a tenant to a

605

: 00:25:52

website or getting call booked or.

606

: 00:25:55

And then say yes.

607

: 00:25:55

And then the next step would be like, you

know, drop the link in the clear future.

608

: 00:25:58

Like, Hey, watch this tomorrow.

609

: 00:26:00

And we'll keep talking or whatever.

610

: 00:26:01

So,

611

: 00:26:01

Michael Whitehouse: so I'm interested

in your opinion is cause I'll, I'll

612

: 00:26:03

sometimes get these and, and, you know,

I can see sell by chat when I'm in it.

613

: 00:26:08

And yeah, so someone will

send me that kind of message.

614

: 00:26:10

And so I'll point blank, ask

them, what are you selling me?

615

: 00:26:15

And often the reply I get is,

Oh, I'm not selling you anything.

616

: 00:26:19

I just want to get to know you.

617

: 00:26:21

And to my mind, I'm

highly suspect of this.

618

: 00:26:26

Of course, if they then try to make any

kind of offer, we're done because as

619

: 00:26:30

soon as you lie to me, our conversations

over and if you just box yourself in

620

: 00:26:34

by saying, I'm not selling anything so,

621

: 00:26:38

Sean Malone: so that answer

is, is not a pro answer.

622

: 00:26:41

I mean, that's the big difference, right?

623

: 00:26:42

And you can tell when there's someone

that's done it for a while and

624

: 00:26:44

there's someone that hasn't, right?

625

: 00:26:46

And so that's, that's one of the reasons

why we offer 16 live sessions per month.

626

: 00:26:51

Every month for our users to show up

and make sure they say things right.

627

: 00:26:55

And so the idea is if, if

someone says to me, well, are

628

: 00:26:58

you trying to sell me something?

629

: 00:27:00

I'd be like, I don't know.

630

: 00:27:02

Cause I don't know if I can even

tell you anything yet, because I

631

: 00:27:04

don't know if you have the challenges

or struggles that I solve, but I

632

: 00:27:08

do want to learn more about you.

633

: 00:27:10

Good answer.

634

: 00:27:10

I like that.

635

: 00:27:11

Very casual, very right to the point.

636

: 00:27:13

Like, cause I don't know if you

have the problem I solve and

637

: 00:27:15

everybody needs to remember, not

everybody has the problem you solve.

638

: 00:27:19

Michael Whitehouse: Yes.

639

: 00:27:20

Yes.

640

: 00:27:21

Oh.

641

: 00:27:22

Yes, so much.

642

: 00:27:23

Yes.

643

: 00:27:23

Well, and what I like about that as a, as

a networker is if somebody reaches out to

644

: 00:27:27

me and, you know, cold approaches me and,

and I say, you know, what are you selling?

645

: 00:27:33

And you say something like that, then

I'm like, that's someone I can network

646

: 00:27:35

with because that's someone who I know is

going to have respectful conversations.

647

: 00:27:39

If I refer them to someone, it's

someone who I, I'm curious to learn

648

: 00:27:43

what you do, because you might know

someone I might be able to get with.

649

: 00:27:47

Refer, you know, affiliate

commission, referring you to someone.

650

: 00:27:50

I might be able to help someone

out, referring you to someone.

651

: 00:27:52

But also if you're, you know, if

you don't just panic and say, Oh

652

: 00:27:56

my God, I'm not selling anything.

653

: 00:27:57

Then we can have an honest conversation.

654

: 00:28:00

And, and, you know, sometimes

I'll just let you roll.

655

: 00:28:02

I'm like, okay, cool.

656

: 00:28:04

Run your process.

657

: 00:28:05

Let's see it.

658

: 00:28:05

Yeah.

659

: 00:28:06

Send your questions.

660

: 00:28:07

Because again, you can see if

you understand the process,

661

: 00:28:10

you know, what's coming next.

662

: 00:28:11

So,

663

: 00:28:11

Sean Malone: but also there is a point

in that conversation where you shift

664

: 00:28:14

from analytical to emotionally involved.

665

: 00:28:17

That's the big difference.

666

: 00:28:19

And I think that's where people really,

they get it right when they do it, right.

667

: 00:28:22

And it works a hundred

out of a hundred times.

668

: 00:28:24

It's so beautiful because you're,

you're so smart, Michael, you

669

: 00:28:27

know so much about marketing and

you're so good at networking.

670

: 00:28:30

Like, dude, I could shower you with

accolades all day because it's real.

671

: 00:28:33

Right.

672

: 00:28:33

And if you haven't worked with

Michael, go work with him right now,

673

: 00:28:36

if you're listening to me, but, and

saying all of this, You always start

674

: 00:28:40

from that analytical place, right?

675

: 00:28:43

You're the logical start

of that conversation.

676

: 00:28:45

You're like, Oh, I see

right through this strategy.

677

: 00:28:47

It's horseshit, or it's good, or

whatever you're thinking as you're

678

: 00:28:50

going through, sorry for cussing.

679

: 00:28:51

I just get emotional.

680

: 00:28:54

And, and,

681

: 00:28:54

Michael Whitehouse: and

right now campus on CBS.

682

: 00:28:56

Sean Malone: Right.

683

: 00:28:56

There you go.

684

: 00:28:57

So then at some point you're

like, okay, let it ride.

685

: 00:29:00

Like they passed your logical

test in your flow, right?

686

: 00:29:03

In your journey.

687

: 00:29:04

Cause every buyer, every prospect

has a different journey, right?

688

: 00:29:08

You got to remember that too.

689

: 00:29:09

But once we pass that litmus test in

your conversational flow, now they start

690

: 00:29:14

asking you if they're asking you the

right and good questions, you shift.

691

: 00:29:18

from logical to emotional and you realize,

Oh, I do have that problem, my business.

692

: 00:29:23

And now you're, as soon as you realize

that the conversational flow switches,

693

: 00:29:28

because now you're really asking if

they can help you solve the thing

694

: 00:29:31

you're actually struggling with.

695

: 00:29:33

That leads to a call in 90 percent

of the time it leads to a sale.

696

: 00:29:36

Michael Whitehouse: Yeah.

697

: 00:29:37

Yeah.

698

: 00:29:37

And I definitely, I saw that in it, but

yeah, I think that's the powerful thing.

699

: 00:29:40

And you always want to pay attention.

700

: 00:29:42

A lot of process will

tell you how to sell them.

701

: 00:29:44

They'll tell you what they want, how

they want to be talked to and listen.

702

: 00:29:47

So if somebody point blank, you know,

when my high D comes out and I say,

703

: 00:29:51

you know, are you trying to sell me

or what are you trying to sell me?

704

: 00:29:54

The, the answer should either be,

well, what I have is this or something

705

: 00:29:59

like you said, might maybe nothing.

706

: 00:30:01

I don't even know right now because I

don't know if you have the problem that

707

: 00:30:04

we solve, but I'd like to explore that.

708

: 00:30:07

Then yeah, then at that point,

my response would be all right.

709

: 00:30:11

Cool.

710

: 00:30:11

You've been honest.

711

: 00:30:12

I know the context of this conversation.

712

: 00:30:15

Take it away.

713

: 00:30:16

You're in charge.

714

: 00:30:17

You know, Lead the parade.

715

: 00:30:19

Let's see

716

: 00:30:19

Sean Malone: where we go.

717

: 00:30:20

And I love that you bring up

your, you know, Hydenus and the

718

: 00:30:23

personality profile and stuff.

719

: 00:30:24

Because I studied extended disc.

720

: 00:30:26

I used to teach it, right?

721

: 00:30:27

And so I still teach it.

722

: 00:30:28

Is this idea of like, if I recognize, and

that's the beauty of communication to DMs,

723

: 00:30:33

is you can, in about two to four messages,

back and forth with somebody, you can tell

724

: 00:30:38

what the profile is if you kind of know.

725

: 00:30:40

And if they're answering in short,

one word, two word, or maybe one

726

: 00:30:44

sentence long things, they're

probably going to be on the D side.

727

: 00:30:47

Yep.

728

: 00:30:47

And so then all we need to do

is talk about transformation

729

: 00:30:50

and results in one line.

730

: 00:30:51

And that's how you respond to

you after I've learned that.

731

: 00:30:54

So I'd be very direct to the point.

732

: 00:30:56

I would talk about results specifically,

and I would focus on the word what.

733

: 00:31:00

So for anyone listening and want a

little quick lesson in disc profiling.

734

: 00:31:05

The D people, the high dominant CEO

types, they care about what their

735

: 00:31:10

favorite word is, what let's do it.

736

: 00:31:12

Let's play a game before I go

through this, Michael, there's

737

: 00:31:14

four words I'm going to give you.

738

: 00:31:15

You tell me which in

order from first to last.

739

: 00:31:18

Okay.

740

: 00:31:19

What, why, who, and how,

which was I like what's yeah.

741

: 00:31:26

In order of most importance to

you, what, why, who, or how.

742

: 00:31:33

Probably who

743

: 00:31:33

Michael Whitehouse:

would be the first most.

744

: 00:31:34

Actually I'd say probably who,

745

: 00:31:40

who, why, how,

746

: 00:31:40

Sean Malone: what, I think.

747

: 00:31:42

Who, why, how, what means, okay,

so, so what is usually a high D?

748

: 00:31:46

Yeah.

749

: 00:31:46

Who is usually a high I?

750

: 00:31:48

You have a lot of I personality,

influencer personality,

751

: 00:31:51

because look at your shirt.

752

: 00:31:52

I can tell that.

753

: 00:31:52

Look at the colors behind you.

754

: 00:31:54

I people love colors.

755

: 00:31:55

Yep.

756

: 00:31:56

I can see that, right?

757

: 00:31:57

They use quotations.

758

: 00:31:58

They make copy look like it's alive.

759

: 00:32:00

A lot of things like so.

760

: 00:32:01

So again, you've got a

lot of high I and then

761

: 00:32:03

Michael Whitehouse: the other thing

when my D comes out, not that I am

762

: 00:32:06

high D, but I get high D when someone's

763

: 00:32:10

Sean Malone: of course, of course, of

course, of course, but see the secret

764

: 00:32:12

in DM messaging is trying to figure

out what somebody's primal filter is.

765

: 00:32:16

And then speaking through that

filter, because then you drop

766

: 00:32:19

all the barriers of resistance.

767

: 00:32:21

Transcribed And you're actually

able to report and connect.

768

: 00:32:24

And that's what we talk about

is like, get that connection.

769

: 00:32:27

Cause when you get into rapport,

it's easy to ask tougher questions.

770

: 00:32:32

Michael Whitehouse: Yeah, no, definitely.

771

: 00:32:33

And this is some, some

really powerful stuff.

772

: 00:32:35

And so, you know, I, I, I like this.

773

: 00:32:39

This concept and that's why I sell

by chat appeal to me in the first

774

: 00:32:42

place because it was, it was a

more authentic way of connecting.

775

: 00:32:45

I, I got a networking because

I don't like cold calling.

776

: 00:32:49

I networking was a better way of

connecting people than picking up the

777

: 00:32:52

phone and just calling them cold and,

and it, it worked better and they were

778

: 00:32:55

happier and everything was wonderful.

779

: 00:32:58

So, You know, so I, I like this,

this concept and also it's about if

780

: 00:33:03

you have something that you know is

valuable and then that's where a lot

781

: 00:33:05

of entrepreneurs also get in trouble.

782

: 00:33:07

Like, I don't know if it's valuable

because I haven't proven it yet.

783

: 00:33:10

Cause a lot of people are going

into entrepreneurship, which is a

784

: 00:33:11

whole different conversation that's

beyond the scope of this podcast.

785

: 00:33:15

But yeah, I'd love to talk

a little bit more about, you

786

: 00:33:18

know, onto the networking side.

787

: 00:33:19

You talked a lot about like directly

selling to people, but you talk

788

: 00:33:23

a little more about networking,

how you can use that to both find.

789

: 00:33:27

People to engage with and then also

how you can find partners who can

790

: 00:33:32

connect with audiences to engage

791

: 00:33:33

Sean Malone: with.

792

: 00:33:34

Yeah, love that.

793

: 00:33:35

Okay, so a couple of use cases.

794

: 00:33:37

The first one I'll talk about is if

you are trying to just find people

795

: 00:33:39

that you want to network with, right?

796

: 00:33:41

So one of the things that I would

encourage is if you have a community

797

: 00:33:45

or a tribe that you're trying to

build, example, Facebook group, or

798

: 00:33:48

if you're on school, you can build a

community over there, or, you know,

799

: 00:33:51

there's a million of them, right?

800

: 00:33:52

So wherever you house

your kind of community.

801

: 00:33:56

One of the easy icebreaker

moves that you can start with.

802

: 00:33:59

And it's what we did for years.

803

: 00:34:00

Was say, Hey, I just built

this networking group.

804

: 00:34:03

It's really bad ass.

805

: 00:34:04

It's got these types of people in here.

806

: 00:34:05

I think you might be a fit.

807

: 00:34:06

Are you interested in joining?

808

: 00:34:08

Right.

809

: 00:34:08

And it's a very quick one to only

pick out those people that are true

810

: 00:34:11

networker folk, because most people

that are like, Oh, well, you know,

811

: 00:34:15

they're either going to come at it.

812

: 00:34:16

Well, I can, I sell to them or I can

add value to the group is usually like

813

: 00:34:19

the either or kind of like, so you're

looking for the kind of people that are

814

: 00:34:22

saying I could add value to that group.

815

: 00:34:24

Yeah, I'll jump in.

816

: 00:34:25

Okay, great.

817

: 00:34:25

Here's my link.

818

: 00:34:26

Let me know when you join.

819

: 00:34:27

I'll have my team give you a warm welcome.

820

: 00:34:29

Then that happens, right?

821

: 00:34:30

You let them in the group, your

team gives them a warm welcome.

822

: 00:34:33

And then you can come back now.

823

: 00:34:35

And you can say, Hey, I make

it a point to speak with every

824

: 00:34:39

member in my networking group.

825

: 00:34:41

To network, here's what's covered on

the call item one, two, and three.

826

: 00:34:45

In our case, it's number one.

827

: 00:34:46

I want to share what our group's all about

and what content's allowed to be posted.

828

: 00:34:50

Number two, we have this kick ass

free referral system that I'll

829

: 00:34:53

show you exactly how it executes.

830

: 00:34:54

And number three, I got to make

sure that you have a system that's

831

: 00:34:57

robust, that can consistently and

predictably grow your business.

832

: 00:35:01

That's usually what my networking

calls are, you know, are around.

833

: 00:35:04

If there's anything else you want

to add to the agenda, that's great.

834

: 00:35:06

Let me know.

835

: 00:35:09

And so I've been very crystal

clear in my intent and my

836

: 00:35:12

purpose through the messages.

837

: 00:35:13

Very authentic, very

real, but very scalable.

838

: 00:35:17

Hmm.

839

: 00:35:18

Michael Whitehouse: I like that.

840

: 00:35:19

And, and so, and, and one thing I hear

through that is, That you open the door.

841

: 00:35:24

I assume that you'd have

some sort of offer available.

842

: 00:35:28

So you open the door for

843

: 00:35:29

Sean Malone: them to say, yeah,

if you get that far and typically

844

: 00:35:31

in the calls, I'll start that way.

845

: 00:35:33

I'll be like, look, here's our group.

846

: 00:35:34

Like, what are the things that

you were most interested in?

847

: 00:35:36

And I started asking you really

good questions in my calls.

848

: 00:35:39

Why did you want to be

in this networking group?

849

: 00:35:40

What are you hoping to accomplish?

850

: 00:35:41

Do you like to go to events?

851

: 00:35:43

Do you like to do this?

852

: 00:35:43

Oh, you need to go.

853

: 00:35:45

Michael Whitehouse: Unless

they self identify a need.

854

: 00:35:46

You'd never even make an offer.

855

: 00:35:48

Correct.

856

: 00:35:49

So, so they don't feel like

they're being pitched to and.

857

: 00:35:52

If an offer is made, then it would be

because they identify, you know, yeah, I

858

: 00:35:57

don't really have that process in place

and I wish someone could help me with it.

859

: 00:36:01

Yeah.

860

: 00:36:01

Sean Malone: Do you want to talk about it?

861

: 00:36:02

Always permission, always

permission, permission, permission.

862

: 00:36:04

That's how conversations

should always be driven, right?

863

: 00:36:07

I usually start, I start

that part of the call.

864

: 00:36:09

So I always start with networking, learn

all about them and everything else.

865

: 00:36:12

And then I'll show them a group,

which is really easy and powerful.

866

: 00:36:15

If you have a group, this is how ours

works just so you know, I like to

867

: 00:36:18

give the kind of behind the curtain.

868

: 00:36:20

So it's, it's one of those

things where it's like, look.

869

: 00:36:22

Michael, I know there's people in

here that can use your services.

870

: 00:36:25

Do me a favor.

871

: 00:36:26

Here's how our networking system works.

872

: 00:36:28

Go through my list of members

and tell me the top five or maybe

873

: 00:36:31

top 10 people you want to meet.

874

: 00:36:32

Send me the list.

875

: 00:36:33

I'll personally introduce them in a three

way message to you and you can start

876

: 00:36:36

a conversation with them from there.

877

: 00:36:38

That's it.

878

: 00:36:39

Free.

879

: 00:36:39

No, no, no.

880

: 00:36:40

Ask no anything beyond that.

881

: 00:36:42

That's what it is.

882

: 00:36:43

And then we'll transition to the

last part of that conversation.

883

: 00:36:46

And I'll say something like, well,

do you have a systematic way of

884

: 00:36:48

consistently growing your business?

885

: 00:36:50

What is it?

886

: 00:36:50

Tell me about it.

887

: 00:36:51

How do you grow your company?

888

: 00:36:52

And then you start telling me and then

I'll just start asking question after

889

: 00:36:55

question and if we can find a gap, I'll

be like, I'm pretty good at solving that.

890

: 00:36:59

Do you want to go down that path?

891

: 00:37:02

I like that.

892

: 00:37:03

Michael Whitehouse: I think I may

be pulling the transcript from this

893

: 00:37:05

episode and going back over this

part because yeah, I have a Facebook

894

: 00:37:09

group, but I don't do much with it.

895

: 00:37:10

It's kind of like there because

it hasn't been a major focus.

896

: 00:37:14

And part of that is just not

having a strategy for it.

897

: 00:37:15

And you know, there's.

898

: 00:37:17

I've, I have learned that less is

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